1 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: I never told your production of I Heart Radio. So 3 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: today is another edition of a Sminty book Club. And 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: for today's book, it was a listeners suggestion. So thank 5 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: you Stephanie for sending this in. We love it when 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: we get these suggestions, so it helps us. Jews are 7 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: topics and books and movies, so keep those coming in. 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: And you've already read this book, right, Samantha. Yeah, I 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: read this in college, and I realized I think I 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: read this just for fun. I worked at a college bookstore, 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: and because I got discounts, I just went through and 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 1: bought all the books that I could right then, because 13 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: it was way cheaper than going to like a Barnes 14 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: and Noble. And I think Amazon really hadn't We were 15 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: using eBay at that point, and I hadn't really gotten 16 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: into the eBay thing, so this was the best way 17 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: I could get cheaper books. But this is yeah. I 18 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: was reminded of that the other day for some reason, 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: of that whole college experience of trying to find the 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: cheapest textbooks. Yeah, like getting the used like quadruple used 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: yeah books, And I would love the professors and I 22 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: think they still do it now that'll be like, just 23 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: get the old edition, you're fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah absolutely. 24 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: And before we get into delving into this book, we 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: did want to put a really quick trigger warning on 26 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: this one. We're not gonna go too deep into any 27 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: of these topics, but some of the topics in this 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: book are heavy include things like domestic abuse, sexual assault, 29 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: sexual abuse, and we will be discussing those. So if 30 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: that's something that is not good for you and in 31 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: not in the mental space war, take care of yourself. 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: So I had never read this until until we got 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: this suggestion. But today we are talking about the novel 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: The House on Mangoes Street by Sandra Cisneros, which was 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: a critically acclaimed book that is on school and university 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: syllabi across the country. It's considered a classic example of 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: Chicana literature. Since its release, it's sold over six million 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: copies and been translated into twenty different languages. It is 39 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: equally heartfelt, inspiring, devastating, and joyful and a bit about 40 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: the author. C Snarros is a poet, short story writer, novelist, 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: and essayist. Her work has been the recipient of several 42 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: awards like the MacArthur Fellowship, the Forward Foundations, Art of 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: Chain Fellowship, as well as several the honorary doctorates. She 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: was also recognized among the Frederick Douglas two hundred. President 45 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: Obama gave her the National Medal of the Arts in 46 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: sixteen and in twenty nineteen this book won the pe 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: N Nabakov Award for Achievement and International Literature. Apart from 48 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: the House on Mango Street, she wrote the novel Caromelo, 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: collections of short stories and poetry. She's written a children's 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: book and an auto biography called A House of My Own, 51 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: and on top of that, she founded the Macondo Foundation, 52 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: which is an organization of writers dedicated to supporting underserved communities. 53 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: So the book covers a range of topics in short 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: chapters or vignettes about the people who live on a 55 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: blue collar Chicago street in the Hispanic Quarter, told through 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: the eyes of a young girl who acts as a 57 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: narrator's cats, names, houseowners, sisterhood, family, death, grief, first jobs, 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, slash, sexism, race, identity, class, patriarchy, home writing, reading, 59 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: remembering where you came from in domestic violence. That's all 60 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: part of this vignette. Because of some of the themes 61 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: in this book, not surprisingly, it's been banned from schools 62 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: and libraries several times over, and in two thousand twelve, 63 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: it was one of eighty books banned under Arizona House 64 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: Bill two to eight, one that prohibited quote classes to 65 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: advocate the overthrow of the United States, promote racial resentment, 66 00:03:53,120 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: or emphasized students ethnicities rather than their individuality. Yeah uh. Teachers, 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: writers and activists came together to form the Liberal Trafficante Project, 68 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: a caravan that traveled from Alamo to Tucson, handing out 69 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: the band bugs and holding workshops to standles. Herself participated, 70 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: and as of early Gaumat, the producer of the Netflix 71 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: show Narcos, is set to turn The House on Mango 72 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: Street into a TV drama after declining similar adaptions for years. 73 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: She said, I write because the world we live in 74 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: is a house on fire and the people we love 75 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: are burning. Television has grown up in the last twenty years, 76 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: and now is the time to tell our stories. And 77 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: uh yeah, if it goes through, she will be at 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: the show's executive producer, one of them at least. Oh, 79 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what kind of stories this will be 80 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: at the Fantastic Yeah Yeah. So. This book is a 81 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: coming of age story of a young Latino woman Esperanza, 82 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: which means Hope Cordero and her observing the world around 83 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: her and trying to make sense of her place in it. 84 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: It has many elements that feel auto biographical. It takes 85 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: place over the span of a year as she goes 86 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: for I'm twelve years old to thirteen years old. In 87 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: the copy I read, it opens with a Ford Bias 88 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: scenarios written in the third person about her time living 89 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: alone in her Chicago apartment and writing this book. Here's 90 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: a quote. She thinks stories are about beauty, beauty that 91 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: is there to be admired by anyone, like a herd 92 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: of clouds grazing overhead. She thinks people who are busy 93 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: working for a living deserve beautiful little stories because they 94 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: don't have much time and are often tired. She has 95 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: in mind a book that can be open to any 96 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: page and will still make sense to the reader who 97 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: doesn't know what came before or comes after. She experiments 98 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: creating a text that is as succinct and flexible as poetry, 99 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: snapping sentences into fragments so that the reader pauses, making 100 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: each sentence serve her and not the other way around, 101 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: abandoning quotation marks to streamline the typography and make the 102 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: page as simple and readable as possible, so that the 103 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: sentences are pliant as branches and can be read in 104 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: more ways than one. Right, I definitely loved her book. 105 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: You and I talked about this before we did because 106 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: of the poetry. And that's this is kind of if 107 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: I were to write. This is how I write, is 108 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: fragmented sentences, but I want an emotion, and that emotion 109 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like it needs to be a descriptor, it 110 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: just needs to be and whether it has a subject, 111 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: whether it has you know, an actual punctuation. That's how 112 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: I write. And I see that and I feel that, 113 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: And you can definitely see her poetry influence all throughout 114 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: these men yas an of the beautiful story to me. Yeah. So, 115 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: she's described her experience as teaching and working with younger 116 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,320 Speaker 1: folks too, and her heartbreak at losing such potential when 117 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: to stemic issues forced talented students to drop out. Quote 118 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: at the university, I work for a program that no 119 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: longer exists, the Educational Opportunity program that assists disadvantaged students 120 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: is in keeping with my philosophy, and I can still 121 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 1: help the students from my previous job. But when my 122 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: most brilliant student is accepted in rolls and drops out 123 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: in her first semester, I collapse on my desk from grief, 124 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: from exhaustion and feel like dropping out myself. And along 125 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: with that, she subscribed her own experiences as a young 126 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: writer feeling mothered due to her class, race, and gender. Yeah, 127 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:07,679 Speaker 1: and I feel like that it was really great forward 128 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: that she wrote in the third person where she was 129 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: describing these things and kind of looking back on herself 130 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: at this time when she was writing this. And I 131 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,679 Speaker 1: totally agree with you about like the poetry, and also 132 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: that you could just pick it up at any chapter 133 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: and not necessarily need to know what came before or after, right. 134 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: I think also she does a great job in talking 135 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: about the other, you know, growing up That was definitely 136 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: how I felt more than anything. I didn't I didn't 137 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: know what any of that meant, but I was definitely 138 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: not a part of it. I was the other. She 139 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: talks a lot about that too, And the ford wasn't 140 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: there when I first read it, because this was like 141 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: two thousand when I read it, so of course it 142 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: was still like twenty years old and it was a 143 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: deemed classic and literature. But I didn't have this board. 144 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: And I loved that reminiscing from her looking back at 145 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: how much she loves it, and it still stands that experience, 146 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: and just like looking back on what we see as 147 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: a biography of someone's life Boss in Chicago. So let's 148 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: get into some themes, as we love to do. One 149 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: of the big ones is family. Family features heavily throughout 150 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: this novel, especially the narrator's relationships with and observations of 151 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: the women and her family from her grandmother, her mother, 152 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: her aunt, her sister, and how they shaped and influenced her. 153 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: This is in contrast to Sis Narrows's own experience. She 154 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: has spoken about how she felt isolated being the only 155 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: daughter in a family of seven children. In the book, 156 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: Esperanza greatly respects her mother and feels safe around her. 157 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: She's inspired by her mother's um languages that she can speak, 158 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:42,679 Speaker 1: and music skills, finding her to be the source of wisdom. 159 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: Her mother regrets chopping out of school and encourages Esperanza 160 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: to keep up her studies. I love her chapter about 161 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: her mom, when she talks about she'd be starring her 162 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: soup and just point out the spoon. She's like, you, 163 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: don't you know I could have been different? You know 164 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: all these things. It's quite beautiful. And then her line 165 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 1: one my favorite lines, as the shame, about how shame 166 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: is a killer of dreams. I know probably get warranted, 167 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: but but I loved it. Here's an excerpt from the 168 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: book about her great grandmother, my great grandmother. I would 169 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: have liked to have known her. A wild horse of 170 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: a woman. She so wild she wouldn't marry until my 171 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: great grandfather threw a sack over her head and carried 172 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: her off, just like that, as she were a fancy chandelier. 173 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: That's the way he did it. And the story goes 174 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: she never forgave him. She looked out the window her 175 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: whole life, the way so many women sit there, sadness 176 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: on an elbow. I wonder if she made the best 177 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: with what she got or what she sorry, because she 178 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: couldn't be all the things that she wanted to be. Esperanza. 179 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: I've inherited her name, but I don't want to inherit 180 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: her place by the window. So good Yeah, we're going 181 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: to talk about that more too. But this Esperanza observing 182 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: this cyclical treatment of women, or are just these things 183 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: generational happening over and over again, and her having the 184 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: same name aim as her great grandmother and trying to 185 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: get out of that cycle that she sees in her family. 186 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: And then there's Aunt Loupe, who dies of illness and 187 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: pushes Esperanza to keep writing before she dies, honestly because 188 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: it will grant her freedom. Esperanza chides herself for ever 189 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: wanting in any way to be like her Aunt Loupe. 190 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: And I read some essays about how she represents Guadalupe 191 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: kind of the Virgin Mary and our Christian English province 192 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: and that that whole plot, and it was very sad 193 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: um because Aunt Loupe she did the thing like she 194 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: had the husband and the kids, and it was sort 195 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: of abandoned, it felt like, and I have an aunt 196 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: where it sort of went that way too, and just 197 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: the way people talked about her and treated her just 198 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: really as a kid. I would observe it and it 199 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: would upset me. Yeah. Yeah, we see the narrator struggle 200 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: to with the Mexican heritage she encounters in her home 201 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: and family and the American culture she's growing up in 202 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,719 Speaker 1: and the tension there for her, and trying to navigate 203 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: that whole thing. Right, I think that's so on point 204 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: with a lot of children, especially in first generation, trying 205 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: to acclimate to the US hard to America, and so 206 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: therefore to acclimate is to ignore your culture and identity 207 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: as the city, which most grown ups, including myself, come 208 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: to regret. And man, I really wish I could have 209 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: these following things. So I found that very just too close. 210 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 1: Another theme, of course, is the house and the house 211 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: in general, and there are a lot of passages about 212 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: homes and houses. In some way it is the heart 213 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: of the book. Esperanza describes her embarrassment at the home 214 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: they live in, at being mocked for it. Speranza herself 215 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,359 Speaker 1: claims it's not a real house like she's seen on television, 216 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: the picket fence, the beautiful two story family home, and 217 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: she describes wanting to get out, want to get house 218 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: of our own. I did really love her a little 219 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: bit about the attic, the bums in the attic, But 220 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: she spent much of her child hood moving from house 221 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: to house and the family dreaming of this perfect house, 222 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: and the house on Mango Street is not what they wanted. 223 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: Esperanza continues to daydream about this perfect house and even 224 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: rise about it. And yeah, they even say at one 225 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: point this is not the last house, to try to 226 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: promise the kids are gonna move on, even though it's 227 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 1: their house on it And she writes, what about a house? 228 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: I say, because that's what I came for. Yes, a 229 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: home in the heart. I see a home in the heart. 230 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: Is that it? And here's another quote. No, this isn't 231 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: my house, I say, and shake my head, as if 232 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 1: shaking could undo the year I've lived here. I don't belong. 233 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: I don't ever want to come from here. You have 234 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: a home, Alicia, and one day you'll go there to 235 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: a town you remember. But me, I never had a house, 236 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: not even a photograph, only one I dreamt of. No, 237 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: Alicia says, like it or not your Mango Street, and 238 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: one day you'll come back to not me, not until 239 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: somebody makes it better. And some essays suggest that the 240 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: house is a metaphor for a woman's body, providing home 241 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: and shelter, and Esperanzas search for a home and rejection 242 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: of her current one is representative of her search for 243 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: her identity, right, I mean, of course this could also 244 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: go as deep as the SAYINGE, this is also about 245 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: her ethnicity and her culture in her background, and and 246 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: the body is kind of that culture she's trying to 247 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: escape from, and being there makes it feel so unwelcome 248 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to be there. She wants what's perfection, 249 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: and what's perfection is, in her eyes, is Americanized, and 250 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: that's gonna be a whole different conversation too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, 251 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: we do have a lot more themes to cover, but 252 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: first we have a quick break for a word from 253 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: our sponsor. We're back, Thank you sponsored. So going on 254 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: with themes, Another theme the narrator struggles with through her 255 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: interactions with women of various ages is womanhood. So Snarrows 256 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: dedicated this book Lost mohatas to the women outside of 257 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: her family. She has two friends that are girls. At 258 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: one point, along with her sister, they strut around the 259 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: neighborhood in high Hills. Other older girls in the neighborhood, 260 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: like Alicia, a young university student who deals with the 261 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: challenges of being a lower income Latina girl in that space, 262 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: and goes on to kind of scorn, the community and 263 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: culture of manga street man and a babysitter who waits 264 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: for change that never comes, Sally, a young girl who 265 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: wears a lot of makeup and revealing clothes, or her 266 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: aunt Lupe, who dies during the book. And one aspect 267 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: of this is the harassment, abuse, and sexual assault often 268 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: faced by women. Sally, for instance, her father is abusive 269 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: and she believes that the only way for her to 270 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: escape that is to find a man, to Mary, who 271 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: goes on to abuse her. To those Sally and her mother, 272 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: Sally's mother make excuses for the violence in their home, 273 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: representing that cycle of violence many women do face. As 274 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: Perunza feels something like a pity for Sally and her 275 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: youth of not being able to quote find a way out. However, 276 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: relationship suffers greatly after Esperanza is sexually assaulted by a 277 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: group of men after Sally leaves her at a carnival 278 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: for a boy. At another time, Esperanza describes being forcibly 279 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: kissed by an older man. Right, And of course, we 280 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: could also talk about the sexualization of young Latino girls 281 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: in general and how that becomes part very problematic because 282 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: for some reason, culture in general really love sexualizing martialized girls. 283 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: And because they experiment, it means that they're now open property, 284 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: which is a whole conversation that she's trying to combat 285 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: in this conversation, as you see Esperanza's thought process, and 286 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: even like Sally's change, he goes from wearing all this 287 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: makeup to wiping it off, you know, and that's this 288 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: whole like conversation of what does that mean and who 289 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: takes the blame for one? Yeah, lots of thoughts on that. 290 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: So throughout the book, the narrator desires to break out 291 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: of limiting and constraining gender norms. We see these gender 292 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: norms throughout multiple facets, including cultural and in settings like 293 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: academics and her observations of the girls women in her life, 294 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: Esperanza conclusive they are all trapped by men in their 295 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: lives and by a patriarchal system that limits them in 296 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: a domestic rolls and this has passed on from generation 297 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: to generation, the idea of the perfect domestic wife and 298 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: mother and that being the goal or perhaps for many, 299 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: the only option. Yeah, and going back to the high heels. 300 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: When the girls first try them on, they're so excited 301 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: to try them on, but that excitement quickly turns into 302 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: something like panic, a feeling that their bodies are no 303 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: longer their own, that their feet are no longer their own, 304 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: and they get rid of the shoes. Esperanza fights quote 305 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: her own quiet War where she leaves the table like 306 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: a man without putting back the chair, are picking up 307 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: the plate, but in doing so left some women behind. 308 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: And I love that that if you you can interpret 309 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: that in a way where they are maturing and coming 310 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: into womanhood and you're trying on these high heels, but 311 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: it reflects the objectification of what their bodies are no 312 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: longer their own, like your feet are no longer your 313 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: own right when you come into this, which I really liked. Yeah. 314 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: I also love the point in which the mother throws 315 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: away the shoes and her referencing that her mom, being 316 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: a clean person, takes away these filthy shoes, and I 317 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: think that's such a representative of finding her filf feeling 318 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: dirty because she's been ejectified and these her shoes were 319 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: the cause of her feeling dirty and whether it really 320 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: was dirty versus how she felt, and that represents so 321 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: many of us who have gone through any type of 322 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: trauma especially being sexualized or sexually harassed, that level of 323 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: feeling dirty and doing whatever you can get rid of it. 324 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: I felt like that was very poignant in that moment 325 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: of her trying to be like, this is how I'm 326 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: gonna get rid of it, and I'm not going to 327 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: look back. But of course you can't let go of that, 328 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: because society is the worst responsibility. Let's talk about that. 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: Something else this book touches on is this idea of 330 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: responsibility to others who don't have the same opportunities you do, 331 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: to remember where you came from. And again, I think 332 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: this is what I've talked about this many times, where I, 333 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,959 Speaker 1: as a marginalized woman who came from a bad circumstance 334 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: to a better circumstance, the level of responsibility I feel 335 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: and making it better. I think it could be a 336 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: whole overallching conversation for marginalized women in general, those of 337 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: us who are able to get out of those situations. 338 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: I feel like there's this whole other level of needing 339 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: to pull it up. But those responsibilities, instead of being 340 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: on the people who are being oppressive, falls onto those 341 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: who have been able to make it out. Which is 342 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: this bigger conversation of yes, we definitely need that, we 343 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: need to pull each other up, but why aren't we 344 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 1: breaking down the systems that's blocking us to begin with? 345 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: And I think she does a great job in talking 346 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: about how she feels that she needs to do this 347 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: and her like forward when she talks about she collapses 348 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: because she sees one more student not beat that potential 349 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: that could pull them out. This level of failure that 350 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: you feel. And I felt that completely in my jobs before, 351 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: when I couldn't change a kid or I couldn't get 352 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: this kid to see what I see. You know, there's 353 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: so many of those conversations. And yeah, I think when 354 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: you leave, you must remember to come for the others. 355 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: That's what she says that she talks about. That's how 356 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:05,399 Speaker 1: quote that she says, and I think that wears on 357 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: so many young women who feel like they've gotten to 358 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: be bettered, and so being bettered means having responsible to 359 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: better others. But she continue as say a circle understand, 360 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: you will always be Esperanza, you will always be monga Street. 361 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: You can't erase what you know, you can't forget who 362 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: you are. Again, like a coming back to the subject 363 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: of responsibility, which is I'm really glad. She points to that, 364 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: and we talked about that, and of course I think 365 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: when I read it in two thousand verses to reading 366 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: it in one, the vast growth that I've had to 367 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: have in learning that yes, I want to better the community, 368 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: but I don't necessarily that is not my responsibility, that's 369 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: not something that should be squarely on me, and that 370 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,120 Speaker 1: if I can't help, if I can't change things, it's 371 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: not my failure, you know, even though I feel it. 372 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: And I remember with talking about stuff like this, I 373 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: remember specifically at work, had a kid who was killed 374 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: and all these circumstances led to his death, and I 375 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: just broke down and I remember asking, is this our fault? 376 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: And another workers like, yeah, it's our fault, and almost 377 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: like turned around and looked at her. It was so honest. 378 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: But that's the way we feel. This is not our child, 379 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: but we've been given responsibility to care for them. And 380 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, it was my job, it was 381 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: my passion. But that level of doubt of like having 382 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: that hangover you because you saw a better way and 383 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: your better way still didn't work, you know, and then 384 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: taking it on as your own failure there's so many 385 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: layers to that, and I think when we break it down, 386 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: especially in the marginalized community, so when we break it 387 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: down to women in general and the level of misogyny 388 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 1: and the patriarchal system that puts that responsibility on people 389 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: who are already traumatized and have to use that traumatized 390 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: to move on, and then the community looks at them 391 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: and say, why didn't you do this, and ignoring why 392 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: the system is even in place and why we need 393 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: to be fighting for this anyway. Yeah, yeah, And I 394 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: think that was something the book did really well of 395 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: kind of navigating is um because Esperanza's young, and she's 396 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: making these observations that at times feel very cruel or 397 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: I mean, the child trying to observe, like in her mind, 398 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 1: why is why are these women allowing in heavy quotes 399 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 1: right when her mom could be doing more than just 400 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: being this housewife, which is yeah, fine if it's your choice, 401 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: but she's like seeing it through this child's eyes of 402 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: like judgment almost, And I feel like a lot of 403 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: the things that Esperanza was frustrated with in terms of 404 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: watching women in her life and and this patriarchal system, 405 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: I think it was that she did quite understand yet 406 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: that there was the systemic problems and she was seeing it, 407 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,399 Speaker 1: but she didn't have that knowledge or language yet of 408 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: like that, there's a reason it's like this, right, yeah, 409 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: And I go with you on that same level of 410 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:25,479 Speaker 1: people are so conditioned to blame their intimate environments and 411 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: rather saying the whole big picture, which is kind of 412 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: the problem, and how we talked about ignorance being the 413 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 1: focus and the problems because the system is a foundation 414 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: that's been laid out from the beginning, and so therefore 415 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: it's hard for us to navigate to realize who was 416 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: truly at fault and what is truly at fault and 417 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: how the system does work against you. And I think 418 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: it's also interesting as we're talking about the house in 419 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: general and women staying out their houses, and she talks 420 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: a lot about women sitting at their windows, like that's 421 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: the theme in every place, and I think she represents 422 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: and the reason why she doesn't love her house is this, 423 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: it is a prison. It becomes a prison that you 424 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: can escape, and people are seeking to come out, and 425 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: the women are the ones that are imprisoned in these stories. 426 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: And whether it's because culture has made them say this 427 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: is what I need, or culture he has said the 428 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: only way you can escape is moving from one of 429 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: each the situation to the next, or the culture has 430 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: said that this is the better fit. Like for specifically, 431 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: the woman who came and she's trapped in her house 432 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: and all she could hear is a woman of crying 433 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,280 Speaker 1: and not willing to speak English, and she just keeps 434 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: saying no English, no English, he not home, no English, 435 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: and then crying when she finds that her son is 436 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 1: speaking English, and she just keeps crying. She wants to 437 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: go home, but she's trapped. Now, Like that's that's that 438 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: whole feeling of I love that she was account of encounter, 439 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: that she became the one woman who loved her culture 440 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: and did not want to be in the US as 441 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: compared to like everybody else saying this is the freedom. 442 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: But it does talk about that house being in a 443 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 1: prison and being released from it or being seen as 444 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: a prison for many people, and I thought that was 445 00:23:56,359 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: interesting too. Yeah, for sure, So we wanted to continue 446 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: with this discussion because clue, we've got a lot of thoughts, 447 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,920 Speaker 1: but first we have a lot more quick break for 448 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: a word from her sponsor and we're back, Thank you, Sponsor. 449 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: So one of the things I wanted to talk about 450 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: that really resonated with me is this idea of being 451 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: a kid and watching older kids and trying to figure 452 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: things out based on what they're doing and like makes 453 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,479 Speaker 1: sense of like how you're supposed to be and how 454 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: you're supposed to act based on what they're doing. And 455 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 1: because the narrator is a writer, she does do a 456 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 1: lot of observing of people and trying to make sense 457 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: of them, almost an outside observer a lot of the time. 458 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: And this is something I really related to because I 459 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: often felt and sometimes still feel like I am the 460 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: outside observer and I'm trying to It sounds so strange 461 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: to say, but especially now that I've worked on the show, 462 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: and this show does involve a lot of self reflection 463 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: and like looking back, like why did I feel that 464 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: way or what was going on? But especially in like 465 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: this time period of my life of being you know, 466 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,719 Speaker 1: middle school, high school, I did feel like I was 467 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: watching people and I didn't understand why they behaved the 468 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: way they did, but I felt like, Okay, that's how 469 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: that's how normal people behave normal people go heavy quotes 470 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: boy crazy and put on a lot of makeup when 471 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: you reached this age and like Rebell and I guess 472 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: that's what I gotta do. And it would it would 473 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,239 Speaker 1: scare me, like the scene with the high heels that 474 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: resonated with me too, of like I would watch these 475 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: things and it was it felt like inevitable. Like I 476 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: remember once with a good friend of mine who are 477 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: still good friends and is actually gonna be on the 478 00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: show soon, Katie. We were walking I think we were 479 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: probably eleven or something, and she was like, I can't 480 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 1: wait to start dating, to get all these boys, and 481 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: she's telling all these boys shoes in too, and I 482 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: was like, really, I never happened to me. She was like, 483 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 1: oh wait, wait, one day, you're just gonna be You're 484 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: gonna be like me, and and I remember being scared 485 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: of that, like just something was gonna click and then 486 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: I was gonna say this one date of the voice 487 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: or the right, which is fine. It did scare me, 488 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, I think you and I 489 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: are going to have a problem because I'm on the 490 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: same wave length as you. I would watch my sister 491 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: who started dating way way what young and started bringing 492 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: home boys around fifteen years old, and I had those 493 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: like streen of boyfriends, and I just remember thinking these 494 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 1: boys are so dumb, thinking they were so ridiculous, and 495 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: I would just be like, why is he doing that? 496 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: I remember asking her specifically because because one boy would 497 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: just sit and watch We'll put on makeup, and she 498 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: loved it. He was like doing things and he would 499 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: just sit there and watch her. And I remember coming going, 500 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: why are you staring at her? You're being creepy, Like 501 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: I specifically said that to her, and she's like, somebody 502 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: to get out like that, That's exactly what it was. 503 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, And don't get me wrong, 504 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: I like boyfriends and I thought it was cool to 505 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,959 Speaker 1: have boyfriends and and then too, I think like second grade, 506 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: I was giving toys and calling boys and saying I 507 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: love you little boys because it was exciting. But that 508 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: was kind of the extent. Like to me, relationships meant 509 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: I don't talk to you, We hold the hands every 510 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: now and again under the like cafeteria table, giggle and 511 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: right nos to each other, and that's it, Like that's 512 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: the point of the relationships. And when I saw what 513 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: my sister and her boyfriends were doing, which wasn't bad, 514 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: don't get me wrong. It was just adoring each other, 515 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: holding each other's hands, being giggly, you know, opening the door, 516 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: going on days. I thought it was ridiculous. I did 517 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: not understand it, and I thought he was, like Mike, 518 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: he's getting on my nerves? How is he not getting 519 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: on yours? Like that was that level, And I think 520 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: I grew up pretending to be normal so hard, Like 521 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 1: I feel like I was constantly watching people to understand 522 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: the norm because I was constantly chastised for my not 523 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: being normal. And when I say chastise, a young kid 524 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: coming from a very traumatic background, learning a culture, a 525 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: complete separate culture, I was told often when I was 526 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: not being quote normal. So that was kind of the 527 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: extent of my childhood was just to watch what was normal, 528 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: this young immigrant coming into town without being able to 529 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: speak English, knowing immediately that I was different, knowing immediately 530 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: where I was, that I was not one of them, 531 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,240 Speaker 1: but I was a an essential project for them, for 532 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: many not just like my parents. And I say that, like, 533 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: I know that sounds cold, but an ideal that this 534 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: girl was brought from Korea from an orphanage, we have 535 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: to be really really nice to her because you know, 536 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,960 Speaker 1: she's a sad girl, uh like and I And it 537 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: kind of was that and me watching to be either 538 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: invisible so I could blend in, which is that model 539 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 1: minority bullsh or to try to acclimate as fast as 540 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: possible so that I can represent whomever I was supposed 541 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: to represent, whether it was other Koreas, whether it was 542 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: the McVeigh family, whatever whatnot. That I had to do 543 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 1: that very quickly and so losing a lot of my 544 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: own identity to get there. So I feel like my 545 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 1: whole childhood was all about not being there, not being visible, 546 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: and so therefore being an observer. So it's a whole thing, 547 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: and acclimating means I also must like white people, white 548 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: men specifically, and therefore be as hetero normative as possible, 549 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: but also very white. Yeah. I've been thinking about this 550 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: because you and I we do both have trauma in 551 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: our backgrounds. And the big chunk of mine did take 552 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: place in high school, middle school, in high school, and 553 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: it was you know, formative time in terms of what 554 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: you think relationships are. And I was also just very 555 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: confused about what was happening. But I often think I 556 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: had a friend who also wasn't in our experiences were 557 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: very different, but she had mamma too, and she like 558 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: we just went in complete different ways. Like I was like, 559 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: I never want to date ever, and she was like, 560 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: get me a date all the time, right, And it 561 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: just was one of those things where neither of us 562 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:15,959 Speaker 1: were wrong. And we've talked about that a lot, but 563 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: I felt like I was there was something wrong with 564 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: me because that we are told and this is part 565 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: of the like becoming a woman, you do. You put 566 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: on the makeup, you put on the high heels, and 567 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: get out there and start dating. Right. And we talked 568 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: about this with specifically in reference to this book. Culturally, 569 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: what she's talking about is this escape and the only 570 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: way to escape your current situation is to get to 571 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: another different situation. But at least you have you're the 572 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: main character in that narrative. So whether you're the wife 573 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: now instead of the daughter, or you know, all these things. 574 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: And I think we can talk about that in itself, 575 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: that it's taken a long time, not only in like 576 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: the culture within Mango Street, about how we've come so far. 577 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: And again, I think this is where her mom is fantastic. 578 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: The character of the Mom's like, get your education, get 579 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: your education, get your education, talking about how important that 580 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 1: is and how she could have been somebody she you know, 581 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: could have been bigger than this and understanding that that's 582 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: what she wants for her daughter. So I think, like, 583 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: you see that narrative with Esperanza being you essentially like 584 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: not caring about the boys because you know she was 585 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: ready to come with a brick defending Sally. And I 586 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: love that too, But that's kind of that narrative, is 587 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: that that two separate changes of what you see in 588 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: the household they grew up in and the prison they 589 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 1: saw that there themselves in and what escape they felt 590 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: that they could get too. So I thought that was 591 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: interesting and just having that moment of being coming a 592 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: woman and what that meant to them and for her 593 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: it meant leaving it and and getting to a situation 594 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 1: where she could help others like herself, and for Sally 595 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: it meant just leaving and getting into another situation that 596 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: was similar to before, but at least he's not with 597 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: her father, right, Yeah, And And speaking of that, we 598 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: do see these women and a lot of situations around 599 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: sex and violence and how they're self worth derives from 600 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: that right, I mean many of the girls and women 601 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: Esperanza witnesses, again it's all about that male attention and 602 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,959 Speaker 1: often sexual attentions, despite the violence they may have experienced. 603 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: And unfortunately we do see that narrative which I didn't 604 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: want to ask you as we've talked about how seems 605 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: like this where Scenarios wrote it in such a poetic 606 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: way and you had to take a minute like wait, 607 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: what just happened? Did that just happened? Did oh? Okay? 608 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: That was bad? How did you feel about that writing? 609 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: So you're talking specifically about like the sexual assault, and yes, yes, yeah, 610 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: I thought it was really effective because you did have 611 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: to It kind of drew you in and made you question, 612 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: like what is going on here? Exactly like in my 613 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: reading too much into it, did that actually just happen? Um? 614 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 1: And so when Esperanza is actually assaulted, for instance, was 615 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,280 Speaker 1: one of those things where I'm like, maybe maybe I 616 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: need to reread that because I'm not entirely sure that 617 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: maybe I'm just being I don't know, paranoid is the 618 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: right word, but that with my experience I'm reading into 619 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: it was something that's not there, and I think that 620 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: that I would imagine intentionally does because we've spoken before 621 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: about how trauma is like that you do kind of 622 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: compartmentalize them in your brain and you do what you 623 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: have to to cope. And so I thought it was 624 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: really effective in that way to have like this is 625 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: how she could communicate it. But young narrator of the story, 626 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I don't think we talked about Esperanza's 627 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: um point of view when it comes to Sally, because 628 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: it's never clearly stated what all is happening. We know 629 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: those physical abuse with the father, but then obviously him 630 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: coming to get her and saying he missed her, all 631 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: these things, there was this whole other narrative as if 632 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: he was trying to plead to what a wife who left? Right. 633 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a good it is. It's a very 634 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: good take on how do I talk about this without 635 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: being able to talk about it? How do I describe 636 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: these moments because she also talks about and the thing 637 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: that repeaces in my head when the assaulter kept saying 638 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,399 Speaker 1: Spanish girl, I love you, Spanish girl, I love you, 639 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: And I think it's such a huge like point of like, yeah, 640 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: this is not violent. The way we're talking about this 641 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,760 Speaker 1: is not violent, but it's severely cruel, Like you see 642 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: that level of heartbreaking. I think it she does a 643 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: really good job and addressing it in a way that's approachable, 644 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,680 Speaker 1: but at the same time, very very very much have 645 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,879 Speaker 1: to analyze what is happening. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good 646 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: point too of it not being violent and kind of 647 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: showing the different ways that this abuse can manifest and yeah, 648 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: just there's also kind of an air of when you 649 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: look back on those memories, how do you what do 650 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: you remember and how you how do you frame it 651 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: in your brain? Right? Yeah. And then there's a scene 652 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: too that I guess is related to what we've been 653 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: talking about where Esperanza is that Sally she witnesses like 654 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: kissing all the people and she like runs in and 655 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: it tells her, tells her mom. I think Sally's Sally's mom, Yeah, 656 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 1: and it's just like freaked out by it and panics 657 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 1: by it. The mom is like whatever, and she doesn't 658 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: understand why it upsets her so much, And that again 659 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,399 Speaker 1: is something that I really relate too. But I also 660 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 1: think goes back to that where she wasn't quite putting 661 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: into place yet, this like patriarchy system that she was 662 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: witnessing because she wants to live myr own rules, and 663 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,439 Speaker 1: there just seemed to be all these structures in place 664 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: to act as obstacles as she's witnessing other women in 665 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: her life and what they go through. And I think 666 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,800 Speaker 1: she does a great job when talking about that garden 667 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: where the monkey was kept, and how they make this 668 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: huge till about it, how it's existed before you know 669 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: the place came around, and how it's magical space for 670 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 1: children to be children into play, and how she got 671 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: kicked out or how she got shamed out because she 672 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: was too old and so feeling that isolation of not 673 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: belonging into this magical space that was created with her. 674 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: And I think it's such a huge tale of her 675 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: own like sadness in growing up and losing childhood and 676 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: losing it so quickly too, and not understanding why she 677 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: had to leave. And again we don't quite understand why 678 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 1: she had to leave, essentially, but other than someone told 679 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: her to, other than someone said it's time, other than 680 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 1: someone shaming her and saying you're you're too old for 681 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: this and you can't enjoy that childhood that you loved. 682 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: At one point, that small bit of childhood that you 683 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: loved that made you love the space. So I thought 684 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: that was a big part of that as well. And 685 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: I also think it's interesting that that's where she retreated 686 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 1: to when she felt that shame of being like, oh, 687 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: grow up when you know when it's like no, you 688 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: have every right to be. This is weird, like having 689 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 1: that moment and wanted to protect her friend and losing 690 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: that friend, but like that, she went back to her 691 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: childhood safe place and just stayed there in morning of it. Yeah. Yeah, 692 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 1: And and when you break down what she is witnessing 693 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: in this neighborhood and in the women in this neighborhood, 694 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: it is kind of the your paths are, like we 695 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: talked about all the time, the virgin or the horror, 696 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 1: like you, you are going to be relegated to those 697 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 1: one of those paths and probably judge either one, but 698 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: one is seen as like more selfless and better. And 699 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,479 Speaker 1: that quote I read earlier about her wanting to be 700 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: like a man, like leave the chair pulled out, and 701 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: that was jeck staposed against this idea of being a 702 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: woman being beautiful and cruel and sort of this power 703 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 1: coming from that beauty and from putting on the makeup 704 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: or whatever it is, and her not wanting to do that. 705 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: She didn't want to get her value from beauty, so 706 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 1: she wanted like essentially be more like a man uh 707 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: and heavy quotes. Again, it's still that system. It's like, unfortunately, 708 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: there's only so much you can do. There's only so 709 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: much as a woman you can say, like, well, I 710 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: don't want to get my value from beauty when that's 711 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,319 Speaker 1: what everyone else season. You still can, like you absolutely 712 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 1: still can. But again it was just I think it 713 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 1: was another example of her not quite realizing like that 714 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: that just that right there, of I want to I'll 715 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: take the man th route. It's the patriarchy, right. Yeah. 716 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: So we had a lot to say about this book. 717 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 1: Thank you so much again Stephanie for the suggestion. It 718 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,840 Speaker 1: was lovely and well worth a read. Listeners if you 719 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: have not read it already, and it's pretty quick is pages, 720 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: so pretty easy read. In the meantime, if you'd like 721 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: to send us another suggestion, we would love to hear 722 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: from you. Our emails Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeart 723 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,760 Speaker 1: media dot com. You can also find us on Twitter 724 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and stuff. I've 725 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: Never told you. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, 726 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: thank you, and thanks to you for listening stuff I've 727 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: Never Told You's a protection of I heart Radio. For 728 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I heeart Radio with the diheart Radio app, 729 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 730 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: M