1 00:00:15,526 --> 00:00:23,536 Speaker 1: Pushkin. If you're a fan of the Happiness Lab, you 2 00:00:23,576 --> 00:00:25,716 Speaker 1: know we talk a lot about the power of attention. 3 00:00:26,216 --> 00:00:28,356 Speaker 1: How small shifts in what we focus on can make 4 00:00:28,396 --> 00:00:31,816 Speaker 1: a huge difference to our psychological well-being. But making those 5 00:00:31,856 --> 00:00:34,816 Speaker 1: shifts is often easier said than done. Many of us 6 00:00:34,856 --> 00:00:38,436 Speaker 1: have plenty of things in our lives to be grateful for. Friends, family, 7 00:00:38,726 --> 00:00:41,566 Speaker 1: an awesome pet maybe. There's also all the smaller stuff. 8 00:00:42,066 --> 00:00:44,766 Speaker 1: A TV show you really enjoy. that first sip of 9 00:00:44,846 --> 00:00:47,846 Speaker 1: coffee in the morning, or cutting into an avocado and 10 00:00:47,886 --> 00:00:51,506 Speaker 1: discovering that it's perfectly ripe. But at a time when 11 00:00:51,526 --> 00:00:54,526 Speaker 1: we're bombarded with scary news about AI and war and 12 00:00:54,546 --> 00:00:58,626 Speaker 1: the climate, when it's so easy to spend hours online doom-scrolling, 13 00:00:59,166 --> 00:01:01,646 Speaker 1: those good things can start to fade into the background. 14 00:01:02,366 --> 00:01:04,686 Speaker 1: So how do we change that? How do we stop 15 00:01:04,706 --> 00:01:07,426 Speaker 1: the stressful stuff from consuming so much of our attention 16 00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:10,536 Speaker 1: so that we can appreciate the wonderful stuff that's still 17 00:01:10,596 --> 00:01:13,696 Speaker 1: out there? Well, for the final episode in our fall 18 00:01:13,736 --> 00:01:16,396 Speaker 1: book series, I decided to call in a little help. 19 00:01:17,316 --> 00:01:20,896 Speaker 2: My name is Eric Weiner, and I am a philosophical 20 00:01:20,976 --> 00:01:24,696 Speaker 2: traveler or traveling philosopher, depending on how you look at it. 21 00:01:25,396 --> 00:01:27,876 Speaker 1: Eric is a journalist by training. He spent years as 22 00:01:27,916 --> 00:01:31,776 Speaker 1: a foreign correspondent for NPR before turning his attention to philosophy. 23 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:36,076 Speaker 1: Now he's the author of multiple bestselling philosophical books. But 24 00:01:36,096 --> 00:01:38,536 Speaker 1: today I wanted to talk with him about one philosopher 25 00:01:38,646 --> 00:01:41,776 Speaker 1: in particular. a scholar who I think offers an important 26 00:01:41,796 --> 00:01:44,016 Speaker 1: solution to our modern attention crisis. 27 00:01:44,456 --> 00:01:45,416 Speaker 2: Henry David Thoreau. 28 00:01:45,916 --> 00:01:48,596 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about Thoreau a lot lately. You see, 29 00:01:48,776 --> 00:01:51,816 Speaker 1: I've been spending time in Cambridge, Massachusetts for my sabbatical. 30 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:55,376 Speaker 1: And Walden Pond, that place that Thoreau famously wrote about, 31 00:01:55,856 --> 00:01:59,036 Speaker 1: is just about a 20-minute drive from my house. It 32 00:01:59,166 --> 00:02:01,906 Speaker 1: is absolutely beautiful there in the fall. The trees are 33 00:02:01,946 --> 00:02:05,186 Speaker 1: just starting to change colors, the summer tourists are mostly gone, 34 00:02:05,566 --> 00:02:07,926 Speaker 1: and you can hear the sounds of wildlife all around you. 35 00:02:08,496 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 1: and the Fitchburg Railroad softly rumbling in the distance. These 36 00:02:12,356 --> 00:02:14,896 Speaker 1: are sounds Thoreau himself would have been familiar with when 37 00:02:14,936 --> 00:02:17,516 Speaker 1: he lived here. I try to feel his presence as 38 00:02:17,556 --> 00:02:21,106 Speaker 1: I walk around the pond, something Eric has done many times, too. 39 00:02:21,866 --> 00:02:24,386 Speaker 2: I'm a place person. I'm a traveler. I need to 40 00:02:24,446 --> 00:02:26,766 Speaker 2: go somewhere. Like, as soon as I think of an 41 00:02:26,846 --> 00:02:29,506 Speaker 2: idea for a book or anything, really, I don't think 42 00:02:29,706 --> 00:02:31,886 Speaker 2: the what, I think the where. Where can I go? 43 00:02:32,346 --> 00:02:35,246 Speaker 1: That instinct took Eric all around the world when writing 44 00:02:35,286 --> 00:02:37,286 Speaker 1: the book that I wanted to chat with him about today. 45 00:02:37,806 --> 00:02:41,946 Speaker 1: the Socrates Express in search of life lessons from dead philosophers. 46 00:02:42,486 --> 00:02:45,886 Speaker 2: And so, you know, I went to Athens, of course, 47 00:02:45,926 --> 00:02:49,646 Speaker 2: in the footsteps of Socrates and Epicurus and the Stoics 48 00:02:49,706 --> 00:02:53,616 Speaker 2: and others. I went to Germany in the footsteps of Schopenhauer. 49 00:02:54,406 --> 00:02:58,256 Speaker 2: And the idea was to sort of shrink down or 50 00:02:58,816 --> 00:03:04,296 Speaker 2: reduce their vast philosophies into one simple how-to question. I 51 00:03:04,316 --> 00:03:07,386 Speaker 2: didn't want it to be anything complex like you know, 52 00:03:07,846 --> 00:03:12,086 Speaker 2: how to disambiguate the categorical imperative, nothing crazy like that. 53 00:03:12,206 --> 00:03:15,136 Speaker 2: It's things like how to get out of bed, how 54 00:03:15,176 --> 00:03:18,896 Speaker 2: to wonder, how to see, how to listen, how to enjoy, 55 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:23,896 Speaker 2: and also how-to questions for later in life, how to 56 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:26,946 Speaker 2: have no regrets, how to cope, and even how to die. 57 00:03:26,966 --> 00:03:30,366 Speaker 2: And the idea is that each of these 14 philosophers 58 00:03:31,166 --> 00:03:35,606 Speaker 2: answers that question channeled through me. So my book is interactive. 59 00:03:35,666 --> 00:03:39,806 Speaker 2: I'm trying not to just learn about these philosophers intellectually, 60 00:03:39,846 --> 00:03:42,826 Speaker 2: but to imbibe them and to employ their lessons in 61 00:03:42,866 --> 00:03:43,666 Speaker 2: my everyday life. 62 00:03:44,126 --> 00:03:46,446 Speaker 1: But unlike all the other dead philosophers in that book, 63 00:03:46,886 --> 00:03:49,666 Speaker 1: channeling Henry David Thoreau didn't require Eric to take a 64 00:03:49,706 --> 00:03:52,266 Speaker 1: trip to some far-off city. It brought him to the 65 00:03:52,306 --> 00:03:54,826 Speaker 1: same place I've been trying to retreat to more and 66 00:03:54,846 --> 00:03:55,526 Speaker 1: more this fall. 67 00:03:56,086 --> 00:03:59,446 Speaker 2: So I'm going to Concord to try to walk in 68 00:03:59,486 --> 00:04:03,156 Speaker 2: his footsteps and and tried to live the way he 69 00:04:03,196 --> 00:04:04,436 Speaker 2: lived as much as I could. 70 00:04:04,856 --> 00:04:06,956 Speaker 1: I'm curious, like, when you first heard about Thoreau, what 71 00:04:06,976 --> 00:04:07,986 Speaker 1: did you first think about him? 72 00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:12,456 Speaker 2: I didn't really care for him. I think, you know, 73 00:04:12,536 --> 00:04:15,896 Speaker 2: like most Americans, Thoreau was thrust upon me in high school. 74 00:04:16,646 --> 00:04:19,926 Speaker 2: I was 15 years old. Probably didn't care about too much, 75 00:04:20,206 --> 00:04:23,686 Speaker 2: but certainly found Thoreau and his most famous book, Walden, 76 00:04:23,706 --> 00:04:26,286 Speaker 2: a little bit annoying, to be honest. I mean, this 77 00:04:26,366 --> 00:04:29,286 Speaker 2: guy going into the woods and he's going to, you know, 78 00:04:29,326 --> 00:04:33,526 Speaker 2: live simply. And I found it a little preachy, like, oh, 79 00:04:33,606 --> 00:04:37,176 Speaker 2: I'm not simple and noble enough for you, Henry David. 80 00:04:37,246 --> 00:04:41,876 Speaker 2: So they didn't give him much thought past high school, 81 00:04:41,916 --> 00:04:42,456 Speaker 2: to be honest. 82 00:04:42,916 --> 00:04:46,756 Speaker 1: But that philosopher who Eric found annoying and preachy, and who, 83 00:04:46,816 --> 00:04:48,876 Speaker 1: as we're about to find out, was indeed very far 84 00:04:48,916 --> 00:04:51,926 Speaker 1: from perfect, would eventually change the way that Eric saw 85 00:04:51,966 --> 00:04:54,366 Speaker 1: the world. And I'm pretty sure that he can help 86 00:04:54,406 --> 00:05:00,516 Speaker 1: make things a little more beautiful for you, too. Our 87 00:05:00,536 --> 00:05:02,676 Speaker 1: minds are constantly telling us what to do to be happy. 88 00:05:03,076 --> 00:05:05,116 Speaker 1: But what if our minds are wrong? What if our 89 00:05:05,156 --> 00:05:07,546 Speaker 1: minds are lying to us, leading us away from what 90 00:05:07,556 --> 00:05:10,486 Speaker 1: will really make us happy? The good news is that 91 00:05:10,566 --> 00:05:12,746 Speaker 1: understanding the science of the mind can point us all 92 00:05:12,786 --> 00:05:15,966 Speaker 1: back in the right direction. You're listening to The Happiness 93 00:05:16,006 --> 00:05:23,566 Speaker 1: Lab with Dr. Laurie Santos. And so give me kind 94 00:05:23,606 --> 00:05:26,186 Speaker 1: of like the deep dive into Thoreau or sort of 95 00:05:26,346 --> 00:05:27,926 Speaker 1: Thoreau 101. What was his deal? 96 00:05:28,626 --> 00:05:34,296 Speaker 2: Thoreau 101. OK, he was born in 1817 in Concord, Massachusetts, 97 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:37,456 Speaker 2: spent almost his entire life there. I mean, he said 98 00:05:38,156 --> 00:05:42,756 Speaker 2: he is made of Concord dust, you know, and he 99 00:05:42,806 --> 00:05:46,446 Speaker 2: spent a few months in New York and met Walt Whitman, actually. 100 00:05:46,506 --> 00:05:48,886 Speaker 2: And that must have been a cool meeting. But Thoreau 101 00:05:48,966 --> 00:05:51,366 Speaker 2: did not care for New York. He was not a 102 00:05:51,406 --> 00:05:54,546 Speaker 2: city person. He was a small town person. So lived 103 00:05:54,606 --> 00:05:57,386 Speaker 2: in Concord, went to Harvard, I think mainly for the 104 00:05:57,426 --> 00:06:02,206 Speaker 2: library privileges because he loved books. And he lived during 105 00:06:02,226 --> 00:06:04,626 Speaker 2: a time of great change. The railroad was just coming 106 00:06:04,666 --> 00:06:08,066 Speaker 2: to Concord. The tensions that would ultimately lead to the 107 00:06:08,366 --> 00:06:11,886 Speaker 2: Civil War were heating up all over the U.S. And 108 00:06:11,946 --> 00:06:14,566 Speaker 2: so it was a tense time, a time of transition. 109 00:06:15,126 --> 00:06:18,406 Speaker 2: He was also at the forefront of this spiritual and 110 00:06:18,426 --> 00:06:23,686 Speaker 2: philosophical movement called Transcendentalism, which... And really, in a nutshell, 111 00:06:23,906 --> 00:06:29,166 Speaker 2: Transcendentalists believed in the inherent goodness of humans. There's a concept. 112 00:06:29,786 --> 00:06:32,646 Speaker 2: And in the notion that the divine is not off 113 00:06:32,686 --> 00:06:35,846 Speaker 2: there in some far-off heaven, but it's right here, right 114 00:06:35,866 --> 00:06:38,006 Speaker 2: in front of us in the here and now. And 115 00:06:38,166 --> 00:06:40,806 Speaker 2: Thoreau and his friend Ralph Waldo Emerson were sort of 116 00:06:40,826 --> 00:06:42,026 Speaker 2: the leaders of this movement. 117 00:06:42,726 --> 00:06:45,106 Speaker 1: His most famous book is this book called Walden. And 118 00:06:45,126 --> 00:06:47,026 Speaker 1: that was kind of, you know, his version of a 119 00:06:47,086 --> 00:06:50,056 Speaker 1: personal experiment. So explain to me what Walden was about. 120 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:55,416 Speaker 2: So he gets this idea in the 1840s that, you know, 121 00:06:55,496 --> 00:06:57,616 Speaker 2: what if he were to go off and live simply, 122 00:06:57,716 --> 00:07:01,876 Speaker 2: get away from society, go live in the woods on 123 00:07:01,916 --> 00:07:06,536 Speaker 2: Walden Pond. And it seems very modern in that sense, because, 124 00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:08,696 Speaker 2: you know, you can picture someone today saying, I just 125 00:07:08,736 --> 00:07:10,736 Speaker 2: have to get away from it all. But that's not 126 00:07:10,756 --> 00:07:13,376 Speaker 2: a new concept. I mean, even back then, with the 127 00:07:13,416 --> 00:07:16,116 Speaker 2: railroad coming to town, with the economy heating up, with 128 00:07:16,196 --> 00:07:20,086 Speaker 2: all this technological change, the telegraph, etc., There was this 129 00:07:20,126 --> 00:07:22,246 Speaker 2: feeling that you wanted to get away from it all. 130 00:07:22,346 --> 00:07:25,026 Speaker 2: So he took this to the next level, built a 131 00:07:25,086 --> 00:07:28,206 Speaker 2: cabin on Walden Pond and said, hey, I'm going to 132 00:07:28,246 --> 00:07:31,346 Speaker 2: live there, live simply, grow my own vegetables, et cetera. 133 00:07:31,846 --> 00:07:34,576 Speaker 2: There's an asterisk to that, but that was the idea 134 00:07:34,616 --> 00:07:35,016 Speaker 2: at least. 135 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:40,076 Speaker 1: Now about that asterisk. The road did not, in fact, 136 00:07:40,216 --> 00:07:43,776 Speaker 1: get away from it all, at least not entirely. The 137 00:07:43,816 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: cabin that he built was small and basic and completely 138 00:07:46,856 --> 00:07:50,186 Speaker 1: lacking in indoor plumbing. But it was also only about 139 00:07:50,226 --> 00:07:53,446 Speaker 1: a mile and a half away from downtown Concord. Henry's 140 00:07:53,486 --> 00:07:57,446 Speaker 1: family lived nearby, and he regularly visited them. He even 141 00:07:57,496 --> 00:08:00,656 Speaker 1: had his mother help with his laundry. But even though 142 00:08:00,696 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: the popular image of Thoreau had him completely disappearing into 143 00:08:03,736 --> 00:08:07,496 Speaker 1: the wilderness, total isolation was not the point of his experiment. 144 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:09,826 Speaker 1: So what was he trying to do? 145 00:08:10,536 --> 00:08:14,496 Speaker 2: To live life deliberately was his famous sentence. He wanted 146 00:08:14,536 --> 00:08:18,396 Speaker 2: to live deliberately and to not wait until he's dead 147 00:08:18,456 --> 00:08:20,936 Speaker 2: to realize or dying that he had not really lived 148 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:24,826 Speaker 2: at all. So it was that sort of impulse to, 149 00:08:25,206 --> 00:08:26,566 Speaker 2: you know, what the heck am I doing with my 150 00:08:26,606 --> 00:08:27,966 Speaker 2: life in this in the rat race? 151 00:08:28,646 --> 00:08:30,226 Speaker 1: And one of the things he really wanted to do 152 00:08:30,286 --> 00:08:32,806 Speaker 1: during this time, kind of living simply and living away, 153 00:08:32,826 --> 00:08:34,606 Speaker 1: was to sort of learn as much as he could. 154 00:08:34,646 --> 00:08:37,456 Speaker 1: In the book you call Throw a Wisdom Scavenger. What 155 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:38,156 Speaker 1: do you mean by this? 156 00:08:39,146 --> 00:08:42,866 Speaker 2: He didn't care about who said something. He cared about 157 00:08:42,926 --> 00:08:46,836 Speaker 2: what they said. And that's not our way, really. We 158 00:08:46,896 --> 00:08:49,986 Speaker 2: tend to look at, you know, Okay, Laurie Santos, she's 159 00:08:50,046 --> 00:08:51,966 Speaker 2: at Yale, so I'm going to pay attention to her 160 00:08:52,086 --> 00:08:55,246 Speaker 2: because blah, blah, blah. We tend to focus on the 161 00:08:55,306 --> 00:08:58,876 Speaker 2: source of information rather than the information itself, not Thoreau. 162 00:08:59,396 --> 00:09:03,176 Speaker 2: So we're talking, you know, 1830s, 1840s, 1850s, and he's 163 00:09:03,256 --> 00:09:06,856 Speaker 2: reading not just the ancients as many people did, you know, 164 00:09:06,896 --> 00:09:10,526 Speaker 2: the Stoics and the ancient Greeks and Romans. He's also 165 00:09:10,586 --> 00:09:14,676 Speaker 2: reading Confucius. And at his cabin, believe it or not, 166 00:09:15,036 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 2: on Walden Pond in the 1840s, he's got a copy 167 00:09:18,496 --> 00:09:22,466 Speaker 2: of the Bhagavad Gita. So this idea, you know, it's 168 00:09:22,486 --> 00:09:27,146 Speaker 2: sort of like early Eastern mysticism, New Age philosophy, a 169 00:09:27,206 --> 00:09:30,786 Speaker 2: century before really we think about it coming to the 170 00:09:30,866 --> 00:09:34,506 Speaker 2: fore in America. So he would just pick up bits 171 00:09:34,576 --> 00:09:37,566 Speaker 2: and scraps of wisdom from wherever he could find it, 172 00:09:37,616 --> 00:09:39,076 Speaker 2: like a scavenger or a forager. 173 00:09:39,716 --> 00:09:41,496 Speaker 1: And so the way you're describing him now, he sounds 174 00:09:41,536 --> 00:09:43,796 Speaker 1: kind of cool, right? You know, there's all this change happening. 175 00:09:43,856 --> 00:09:45,856 Speaker 1: He's like, I guess, gotta get off the grid and, 176 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,456 Speaker 1: you know, read the ancients and read this cool Eastern philosophy. 177 00:09:48,516 --> 00:09:51,836 Speaker 1: But there's some controversy over Thoreau, too. He wasn't kind 178 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:54,176 Speaker 1: of roundly considered this guy that everyone loved. 179 00:09:54,236 --> 00:09:57,166 Speaker 2: Is that right? No, he was not loved at all. 180 00:09:57,326 --> 00:10:00,106 Speaker 2: In fact, he was just seen as an oddball in 181 00:10:00,186 --> 00:10:03,826 Speaker 2: Concord and kind of standoffish. But, you know, as I 182 00:10:03,846 --> 00:10:06,126 Speaker 2: say in my book, if we only focused on the nice, 183 00:10:06,226 --> 00:10:11,236 Speaker 2: likable philosophers, we have a very thin pamphlet on philosophy. 184 00:10:12,216 --> 00:10:15,736 Speaker 2: Nathaniel Hawthorne, his neighbor and I would say acquaintance, not friend, 185 00:10:16,206 --> 00:10:21,226 Speaker 2: talked about a certain iron pokerishness to Thoreau. Other people 186 00:10:21,266 --> 00:10:24,186 Speaker 2: were not so kind. They found him kind of egotistical 187 00:10:24,206 --> 00:10:27,116 Speaker 2: and Again, I say standoffish, but I think the truth 188 00:10:27,196 --> 00:10:29,126 Speaker 2: is he was an introvert. And as you know, a 189 00:10:29,656 --> 00:10:33,246 Speaker 2: lot of introverts can come across as unfriendly when that's 190 00:10:33,286 --> 00:10:36,326 Speaker 2: really not the case. They're just inward looking. And I 191 00:10:36,386 --> 00:10:40,806 Speaker 2: think that was Thoreau. I mean, he had this prominent nose. 192 00:10:40,846 --> 00:10:43,846 Speaker 2: He had these kind of piercing eyes that people find 193 00:10:43,966 --> 00:10:46,656 Speaker 2: kind of scary, to be honest. He would just look 194 00:10:46,696 --> 00:10:49,276 Speaker 2: at things for a long time with those eyes. And 195 00:10:49,316 --> 00:10:53,996 Speaker 2: he had this almost... superhuman sense of smell, and he 196 00:10:54,096 --> 00:10:58,456 Speaker 2: could hear things that other people couldn't. So there was 197 00:10:58,516 --> 00:10:59,896 Speaker 2: something odd about him. 198 00:11:00,786 --> 00:11:03,726 Speaker 1: Eric's books share stories about Thoreau taking a single glance 199 00:11:03,766 --> 00:11:07,146 Speaker 1: at a tree and correctly estimating its height, or using 200 00:11:07,186 --> 00:11:09,886 Speaker 1: his acute senses of the land to spot Native American 201 00:11:10,006 --> 00:11:14,036 Speaker 1: arrowheads buried in the ground. Thoreau was unusually attuned to 202 00:11:14,076 --> 00:11:16,876 Speaker 1: the world around him. He noticed things that other people 203 00:11:17,096 --> 00:11:20,456 Speaker 1: simply missed. Eric believes that we can all learn something 204 00:11:20,496 --> 00:11:23,956 Speaker 1: from Thoreau's careful attention, and that by following his example, 205 00:11:24,236 --> 00:11:26,336 Speaker 1: we can all start noticing more of the good stuff 206 00:11:26,396 --> 00:11:28,796 Speaker 1: that's right in front of us. And Eric will share 207 00:11:28,816 --> 00:11:31,456 Speaker 1: how to do that when the Happiness Lab returns in 208 00:11:31,496 --> 00:11:44,776 Speaker 1: a moment. I'm speaking with traveling philosopher Eric Weiner about 209 00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:47,966 Speaker 1: his insights on Henry David Thoreau, a scholar I've been 210 00:11:48,006 --> 00:11:50,106 Speaker 1: turning to again and again this fall as I try 211 00:11:50,126 --> 00:11:53,746 Speaker 1: to reset my own attention. To learn from long-dead philosophers 212 00:11:53,766 --> 00:11:56,456 Speaker 1: for his book, Eric decided it was important to spend 213 00:11:56,496 --> 00:11:58,776 Speaker 1: time in the places where they actually lived and worked. 214 00:11:59,396 --> 00:12:01,916 Speaker 1: And for the philosopher I've been obsessed with lately, that 215 00:12:01,956 --> 00:12:04,996 Speaker 1: meant exploring Thoreau's hometown of Concord, Massachusetts. 216 00:12:05,696 --> 00:12:08,656 Speaker 2: I started at the Concord Library, which is a beautiful, 217 00:12:08,736 --> 00:12:13,326 Speaker 2: amazing library, and they have a lot of Thoreau's original manuscripts, 218 00:12:13,346 --> 00:12:16,796 Speaker 2: which is very cool to touch it even through laminated 219 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:20,496 Speaker 2: plastic to just see his handwriting. And so I was 220 00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:23,356 Speaker 2: thinking like, what is this chapter going to be? As 221 00:12:23,416 --> 00:12:25,636 Speaker 2: a writer, you go in with preconceived notions and you 222 00:12:25,676 --> 00:12:27,656 Speaker 2: just have to be open to changing those notions. But 223 00:12:27,706 --> 00:12:31,626 Speaker 2: my preconceived notion was, oh, this will be a chapter 224 00:12:31,706 --> 00:12:36,046 Speaker 2: called How to Live Alone Like Thoreau or How to 225 00:12:36,106 --> 00:12:38,856 Speaker 2: Live Simply Like Thoreau, because that's what we think of him. 226 00:12:39,696 --> 00:12:41,076 Speaker 2: So I'm in the library and I'm talking to the 227 00:12:41,136 --> 00:12:44,616 Speaker 2: curator of the rare manuscripts, a woman named Leslie Wilson. 228 00:12:44,936 --> 00:12:46,856 Speaker 2: And I tell her my idea. She says, no, no, no, no. 229 00:12:46,956 --> 00:12:49,016 Speaker 2: That was not Thoreau. He was about how to see. 230 00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:51,936 Speaker 2: And she said, you need to read not just Walden, 231 00:12:51,996 --> 00:12:54,956 Speaker 2: but his journals. And then I find out that the 232 00:12:54,996 --> 00:12:57,976 Speaker 2: journals are about two million words. Did not read all 233 00:12:57,996 --> 00:13:00,596 Speaker 2: of them, but I read a lot of them. And 234 00:13:01,016 --> 00:13:04,496 Speaker 2: I saw what she meant about seeing, that really the 235 00:13:04,576 --> 00:13:10,046 Speaker 2: journals are about his observations and this amazing ability to 236 00:13:10,126 --> 00:13:13,806 Speaker 2: see what other people didn't see. And so I switched 237 00:13:13,866 --> 00:13:16,996 Speaker 2: gears and called the chapter How to See Like Thoreau. 238 00:13:17,676 --> 00:13:19,356 Speaker 1: So in your book, you talk about how Thoreau was 239 00:13:19,396 --> 00:13:21,916 Speaker 1: interested not in this idea of the nature of reality, 240 00:13:21,996 --> 00:13:24,686 Speaker 1: which is what a lot of scientists and philosophers care about, 241 00:13:24,826 --> 00:13:27,006 Speaker 1: but he was really interested in the reality of nature. 242 00:13:27,426 --> 00:13:29,446 Speaker 1: Talk about what that means and how it's connected to 243 00:13:29,466 --> 00:13:30,326 Speaker 1: this idea of seeing. 244 00:13:30,346 --> 00:13:35,316 Speaker 2: Right. So he was an empiricist. Now, empiricists believe basically 245 00:13:35,336 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 2: that we're born a tabula rasa, a blank slate, no 246 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:43,356 Speaker 2: preloaded software, and all our knowledge comes in through our senses. 247 00:13:43,976 --> 00:13:47,646 Speaker 2: So empiricists Most empiricists, and Thoreau included, are not really 248 00:13:47,726 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 2: interested in metaphysics, in something that you can't touch, taste, hear, smell. 249 00:13:53,156 --> 00:13:57,836 Speaker 2: So he was much more interested in what we can 250 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:02,536 Speaker 2: learn through our senses as opposed to speculating with our 251 00:14:02,576 --> 00:14:06,436 Speaker 2: mind about the nature of reality. Do we really exist? 252 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:11,226 Speaker 2: Those sort of questions which some philosophers find fascinating. Not Thoreau. 253 00:14:11,346 --> 00:14:14,096 Speaker 2: I mean, he famously said, Who can say what is? 254 00:14:14,136 --> 00:14:16,316 Speaker 2: He can only say what he can see. And that 255 00:14:16,376 --> 00:14:17,816 Speaker 2: was his philosophy in a nutshell. 256 00:14:18,436 --> 00:14:20,436 Speaker 1: And talk about how this philosophy kind of plays out 257 00:14:20,476 --> 00:14:22,876 Speaker 1: in terms of the value of seeing, too. Because, you know, 258 00:14:22,916 --> 00:14:24,796 Speaker 1: part of it was about the sort of metaphysics, but 259 00:14:24,836 --> 00:14:27,236 Speaker 1: part of it was about the value of connecting with 260 00:14:27,296 --> 00:14:29,346 Speaker 1: reality in this really rich sense, too, right? 261 00:14:30,066 --> 00:14:33,106 Speaker 2: We tend to think of vision as a very sort 262 00:14:33,146 --> 00:14:37,906 Speaker 2: of mechanical process. That seeing is like photography. You know, 263 00:14:38,006 --> 00:14:41,906 Speaker 2: our eye takes a picture. of the screen I'm looking 264 00:14:42,006 --> 00:14:44,596 Speaker 2: at now or my coffee mug, which is right here. 265 00:14:45,216 --> 00:14:47,496 Speaker 2: There it is. And then it's just, you know, maybe 266 00:14:47,616 --> 00:14:50,276 Speaker 2: printed in our brain. And that's not how it works 267 00:14:50,316 --> 00:14:53,356 Speaker 2: at all. I mean, scientists know this now. In fact, 268 00:14:53,656 --> 00:14:57,676 Speaker 2: vision is much less like photography and much more like conversation. 269 00:14:57,956 --> 00:15:00,596 Speaker 2: So by that, I mean, what happens is my brain 270 00:15:00,656 --> 00:15:03,936 Speaker 2: is having a conversation with itself. The coffee mug I'm 271 00:15:03,956 --> 00:15:07,716 Speaker 2: looking at now, in fact, there's something there. It's cylindrical. 272 00:15:07,816 --> 00:15:10,586 Speaker 2: It's got a liquid in it. And you quickly search 273 00:15:10,606 --> 00:15:13,506 Speaker 2: your database for what it might be that you've seen before. 274 00:15:13,526 --> 00:15:17,566 Speaker 2: And your brain essentially tells you, oh, that's probably a 275 00:15:17,606 --> 00:15:20,106 Speaker 2: coffee mug and that's coffee and you like coffee. So 276 00:15:20,126 --> 00:15:23,146 Speaker 2: that's something good. And all this happened so instantly that 277 00:15:23,166 --> 00:15:26,836 Speaker 2: we're not aware of it. And I think Thoreau was 278 00:15:26,886 --> 00:15:29,216 Speaker 2: aware of that, that seeing is something that we do 279 00:15:29,236 --> 00:15:32,896 Speaker 2: with our mind more than our eye. So it was 280 00:15:32,976 --> 00:15:35,576 Speaker 2: sort of full body, full mind seeing. 281 00:15:36,536 --> 00:15:39,076 Speaker 1: I think this idea of full body, full mind seeing 282 00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:42,836 Speaker 1: also gets to this connection between seeing and feelings, which 283 00:15:42,896 --> 00:15:45,416 Speaker 1: is something else that Thoreau talked a lot about. He 284 00:15:45,446 --> 00:15:47,426 Speaker 1: really got a lot of kind of positive emotion out 285 00:15:47,466 --> 00:15:47,926 Speaker 1: of seeing. 286 00:15:48,306 --> 00:15:51,406 Speaker 2: Right. So even though he was a natural philosopher, what 287 00:15:51,446 --> 00:15:54,426 Speaker 2: today we'd call a scientist, and had a very scientific mind, 288 00:15:54,846 --> 00:15:56,626 Speaker 2: he was not interested in what he called the view 289 00:15:56,706 --> 00:16:01,046 Speaker 2: from nowhere. The view from nowhere is this notion of 290 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:06,126 Speaker 2: the scientist who can be a psychologist as well, who's studying, oh, 291 00:16:06,646 --> 00:16:10,876 Speaker 2: I don't know, happiness, maybe? And is like, you know, 292 00:16:11,276 --> 00:16:13,996 Speaker 2: I'm just studying happiness. I don't have any skin in 293 00:16:14,036 --> 00:16:16,056 Speaker 2: this game. No dog in this hunt. You know, I'm 294 00:16:16,096 --> 00:16:19,816 Speaker 2: just looking from above. Thoreau thought that was nonsense, that 295 00:16:19,856 --> 00:16:22,606 Speaker 2: there is no view from above. That view is empty 296 00:16:22,706 --> 00:16:25,186 Speaker 2: and cold, and he didn't have any time for it. 297 00:16:25,866 --> 00:16:28,706 Speaker 2: And so he was very much into this notion of 298 00:16:28,806 --> 00:16:34,246 Speaker 2: seeing as something that was subjective and And that came 299 00:16:34,426 --> 00:16:37,826 Speaker 2: from the heart as much as the head or the eye, really. 300 00:16:38,346 --> 00:16:41,586 Speaker 2: The things that matter to us most, like happiness and love, 301 00:16:41,606 --> 00:16:45,486 Speaker 2: are in fact the most subjective. And so Thoreau very 302 00:16:45,526 --> 00:16:49,466 Speaker 2: much believed in valuing the subjective, that, you know, with 303 00:16:49,526 --> 00:16:53,826 Speaker 2: the right perspective, we can see beauty and experience beauty, 304 00:16:53,866 --> 00:16:56,446 Speaker 2: I think would be the key word almost anywhere. 305 00:16:56,906 --> 00:16:58,826 Speaker 1: And part of the value we get from this objective 306 00:16:58,886 --> 00:17:01,456 Speaker 1: is a particular kind of emotion that I think Thoreau 307 00:17:01,576 --> 00:17:04,256 Speaker 1: really got deep into, which is this idea of wonder. 308 00:17:04,656 --> 00:17:06,376 Speaker 1: You talk in the book about how you can't read 309 00:17:06,436 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: Thoreau without seeing him like some awestruck teenager. Give me 310 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:10,576 Speaker 1: some examples of this. 311 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:14,816 Speaker 2: There's this great scene where he's just like staring at 312 00:17:14,896 --> 00:17:19,206 Speaker 2: something for like hours. And this farmer, you know, looks 313 00:17:19,326 --> 00:17:22,786 Speaker 2: at him and says, what's he doing? Walks away and 314 00:17:23,026 --> 00:17:26,766 Speaker 2: comes back like five hours later. And he's still there. 315 00:17:26,866 --> 00:17:29,106 Speaker 2: Thoreau's still there at the same place on the pond 316 00:17:29,156 --> 00:17:31,256 Speaker 2: or wherever he was. And the farmer's just like, what 317 00:17:31,296 --> 00:17:35,976 Speaker 2: are you doing? And he says, Mr. So-and-so, I'm studying 318 00:17:36,016 --> 00:17:40,036 Speaker 2: the habits of the bullfrog. And the farmer was just like, oh, man. 319 00:17:41,396 --> 00:17:44,296 Speaker 2: But children, God, that was the thing. You know, adults 320 00:17:44,336 --> 00:17:47,096 Speaker 2: were wary of Thoreau, but kids could spend all day 321 00:17:47,136 --> 00:17:50,596 Speaker 2: with him watching a duck hatch her eggs, for instance, 322 00:17:51,276 --> 00:17:55,786 Speaker 2: because children have that sense of wonder. you know, it's 323 00:17:55,806 --> 00:17:58,606 Speaker 2: been said that a philosopher is a seven-year-old only with 324 00:17:58,666 --> 00:18:02,666 Speaker 2: a bigger brain. And Thoreau embodied that. He had the 325 00:18:02,786 --> 00:18:06,036 Speaker 2: wonder of a child of a seven-year-old, but the brain 326 00:18:06,056 --> 00:18:09,416 Speaker 2: of a naturalist who knew birds and knew his science 327 00:18:09,516 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 2: and knew the Bhagavad Gita. And so a lot of seeing, quote-unquote, 328 00:18:15,656 --> 00:18:19,506 Speaker 2: better is not doing more, but doing less and unlearning 329 00:18:19,606 --> 00:18:23,076 Speaker 2: habits that have just layered on top of us like 330 00:18:23,136 --> 00:18:27,306 Speaker 2: a scaly skin that we have to slough off. So 331 00:18:27,726 --> 00:18:30,186 Speaker 2: Thoreau was, he never grew up, basically. 332 00:18:30,846 --> 00:18:33,706 Speaker 1: There's a lot of scientific work showing the power of play. 333 00:18:34,086 --> 00:18:35,826 Speaker 1: If we get kind of curious, we can sort of 334 00:18:35,866 --> 00:18:38,546 Speaker 1: play with ideas or really pay attention in a way 335 00:18:38,926 --> 00:18:41,066 Speaker 1: that's playful, as opposed to like we're trying to do 336 00:18:41,126 --> 00:18:43,426 Speaker 1: some particular thing. And this seems to be another kind 337 00:18:43,466 --> 00:18:45,496 Speaker 1: of thing that Thoreau seemed to embody, the sort of 338 00:18:45,586 --> 00:18:47,136 Speaker 1: playfulness of seeing as well. 339 00:18:48,456 --> 00:18:52,046 Speaker 2: Definitely. It was not work for him. It was fun. 340 00:18:52,926 --> 00:18:56,526 Speaker 2: And I think the key word, and this applies, I think, 341 00:18:56,586 --> 00:19:00,176 Speaker 2: both to happiness and to seeing is expectations. I think 342 00:19:00,256 --> 00:19:02,836 Speaker 2: expectations are the enemy of happiness. And I think they're 343 00:19:02,856 --> 00:19:05,916 Speaker 2: also the enemy of seeing. Thoreau certainly thought so, that 344 00:19:06,796 --> 00:19:09,136 Speaker 2: when you've decided ahead of time what it is you're 345 00:19:09,156 --> 00:19:12,796 Speaker 2: going to see, you don't really see it. So you 346 00:19:12,836 --> 00:19:16,426 Speaker 2: have to slow down that process. I mentioned earlier that 347 00:19:16,466 --> 00:19:19,106 Speaker 2: seeing is more like a conversation, but it's a conversation 348 00:19:19,126 --> 00:19:22,256 Speaker 2: we have very quickly. And, you know, normally that serves 349 00:19:22,316 --> 00:19:23,936 Speaker 2: us very well. If it took me a half hour 350 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 2: to figure out this is a coffee mug in front 351 00:19:25,536 --> 00:19:27,496 Speaker 2: of me, my coffee would get cold by then. Not 352 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:30,716 Speaker 2: so cool. But sometimes it doesn't serve us well because 353 00:19:30,736 --> 00:19:34,236 Speaker 2: we've decided ahead of time that we know what we're 354 00:19:34,256 --> 00:19:36,046 Speaker 2: going to see before we see it. We know what 355 00:19:36,106 --> 00:19:38,186 Speaker 2: it is. And as a scientist, you know, that can 356 00:19:38,226 --> 00:19:40,386 Speaker 2: trip you up too. That nine out of 10 times, 357 00:19:40,466 --> 00:19:42,126 Speaker 2: it's always been a coffee mug. So it must be 358 00:19:42,146 --> 00:19:44,946 Speaker 2: a coffee mug this time. And Thoreau didn't make that mistake. 359 00:19:45,666 --> 00:19:48,006 Speaker 2: He saw everything as if he were seeing it for 360 00:19:48,046 --> 00:19:48,546 Speaker 2: the first time. 361 00:19:49,256 --> 00:19:52,276 Speaker 1: And I think that's a really powerful concept for happiness generally, right? 362 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,276 Speaker 1: I think seeing anything like you're seeing it for the 363 00:19:54,296 --> 00:19:56,526 Speaker 1: first time can give you all these positive emotions. It 364 00:19:56,546 --> 00:19:58,726 Speaker 1: can make you curious. It can give you a sense 365 00:19:58,766 --> 00:20:01,886 Speaker 1: of awe. But I think that kind of flexibility with 366 00:20:01,966 --> 00:20:05,526 Speaker 1: everyday objects is really good practice for the tougher things, right? 367 00:20:05,546 --> 00:20:07,786 Speaker 1: You know, this challenging situation comes up and I could 368 00:20:07,806 --> 00:20:09,666 Speaker 1: see it as a challenging situation or as I could 369 00:20:09,686 --> 00:20:12,146 Speaker 1: see it as an opportunity, right? Kind of builds in 370 00:20:12,186 --> 00:20:13,626 Speaker 1: this interesting flexibility. 371 00:20:14,026 --> 00:20:15,946 Speaker 2: Right. So I think what you're getting at there is 372 00:20:16,046 --> 00:20:20,706 Speaker 2: altered perspective. And that's really what Thoreau was about. So 373 00:20:20,766 --> 00:20:23,606 Speaker 2: we're talking about vision and it may sound very, in 374 00:20:23,646 --> 00:20:26,106 Speaker 2: a way, superficial, always looking at things. But no, he's 375 00:20:26,326 --> 00:20:29,776 Speaker 2: altering perspective. And I think you're totally right that in 376 00:20:29,856 --> 00:20:33,266 Speaker 2: order to alter your perspective about The big things in life, 377 00:20:33,366 --> 00:20:36,986 Speaker 2: I mean, big things, a cancer diagnosis, losing a loved one, 378 00:20:37,006 --> 00:20:39,566 Speaker 2: being fired from your job, you know, in order to 379 00:20:39,676 --> 00:20:42,596 Speaker 2: alter your perspective about those big things, the way to 380 00:20:42,636 --> 00:20:44,516 Speaker 2: build up that muscle, I think, is to alter your 381 00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:47,756 Speaker 2: perspective about the small things. To see, you know, beauty 382 00:20:47,796 --> 00:20:49,956 Speaker 2: in your coffee mug, the way the water kind of 383 00:20:49,996 --> 00:20:54,456 Speaker 2: swishes around, to look at that same stack of books 384 00:20:54,516 --> 00:20:56,616 Speaker 2: in your office that's been there every day and see 385 00:20:56,676 --> 00:21:00,556 Speaker 2: it slightly differently. This is, by the way, why I travel. 386 00:21:00,996 --> 00:21:03,696 Speaker 2: So my all-time favorite travel quote is from the writer 387 00:21:03,756 --> 00:21:07,936 Speaker 2: Henry Miller, who said, one's destination is never a place 388 00:21:08,036 --> 00:21:10,696 Speaker 2: but a new way of looking at things. I think 389 00:21:10,736 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 2: most people don't travel just for pleasure or for hedonistic reasons. 390 00:21:14,816 --> 00:21:17,496 Speaker 2: It's to find that new way of looking at things. 391 00:21:17,656 --> 00:21:20,136 Speaker 2: You can play this trick at home. You can pretend 392 00:21:20,176 --> 00:21:22,356 Speaker 2: to be a tourist in your hometown, just walk around 393 00:21:22,376 --> 00:21:24,456 Speaker 2: like you're seeing it for the first time. It takes 394 00:21:24,496 --> 00:21:25,876 Speaker 2: work at first, but you can do it. 395 00:21:26,526 --> 00:21:28,946 Speaker 1: So practicing a new perspective on the small things can 396 00:21:28,966 --> 00:21:31,846 Speaker 1: help us build the flexibility we need to navigate life's 397 00:21:31,886 --> 00:21:35,106 Speaker 1: hardest moments. Eric has already shared a few ways to 398 00:21:35,176 --> 00:21:38,876 Speaker 1: start that. Slow down, let go of expectations, and try 399 00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:40,936 Speaker 1: to look at the world through the eyes of a tourist. 400 00:21:41,656 --> 00:21:43,696 Speaker 1: But how do we do that more often in our 401 00:21:43,716 --> 00:21:46,476 Speaker 1: busy lives? How can we become more present if we 402 00:21:46,516 --> 00:21:49,056 Speaker 1: don't have hours to spend sitting in the woods staring 403 00:21:49,096 --> 00:21:52,286 Speaker 1: at bullfrogs and ducks? Eric will share his tips for 404 00:21:52,366 --> 00:21:55,026 Speaker 1: following Thoreau in the modern day when the Happiness Lab 405 00:21:55,066 --> 00:22:06,836 Speaker 1: returns from the break. Author Eric Weiner believes that Henry 406 00:22:06,876 --> 00:22:10,236 Speaker 1: David Thoreau, a philosopher who he once considered quite obnoxious, 407 00:22:10,636 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 1: can teach us to see the small things around us 408 00:22:12,536 --> 00:22:15,216 Speaker 1: with fresh eyes, and by doing so, can make life 409 00:22:15,276 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: feel new and beautiful again. I asked Eric to tell 410 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,636 Speaker 1: me about one of Thoreau's favorite ways of shifting his perspective, 411 00:22:22,136 --> 00:22:26,056 Speaker 1: long walks, or, as Thoreau famously called them, saunters. 412 00:22:26,616 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 2: He never walked. He sauntered. It was his favorite word. 413 00:22:29,866 --> 00:22:31,926 Speaker 2: And if you think about it, it's different. A walk has, 414 00:22:31,946 --> 00:22:34,546 Speaker 2: you know, sounds like it's for health reasons or it's 415 00:22:34,646 --> 00:22:38,036 Speaker 2: purposeful and walking to get somewhere. A saunter, I think, 416 00:22:38,096 --> 00:22:43,036 Speaker 2: implies a kind of playfulness and also an aimlessness, no expectations. 417 00:22:43,536 --> 00:22:47,186 Speaker 2: So each morning he would do his morning pages, sort 418 00:22:47,226 --> 00:22:49,766 Speaker 2: of just writing down his thoughts from the day before. 419 00:22:49,786 --> 00:22:52,086 Speaker 2: And in the afternoon, he would go for a walk 420 00:22:52,146 --> 00:22:53,846 Speaker 2: and he would walk four or five, six miles a 421 00:22:53,866 --> 00:22:56,826 Speaker 2: day without a problem. Sorry, I said walk. he would saunter. 422 00:22:57,656 --> 00:22:59,616 Speaker 2: And as you probably know, there are all kinds of 423 00:22:59,676 --> 00:23:02,556 Speaker 2: health and psychological benefits to walking. And I think one 424 00:23:02,576 --> 00:23:05,456 Speaker 2: of them is that we are able to see better, 425 00:23:05,736 --> 00:23:08,936 Speaker 2: you know, not sitting still and staring at something, but 426 00:23:09,536 --> 00:23:13,156 Speaker 2: glancing at it as you walk by, because enough of 427 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:16,366 Speaker 2: your brain is busy with the task of walking and 428 00:23:16,426 --> 00:23:19,326 Speaker 2: enough is freed up, I think, that you're able to 429 00:23:19,386 --> 00:23:21,426 Speaker 2: see more things. So he did a lot of his 430 00:23:21,526 --> 00:23:24,196 Speaker 2: seeing when he was sauntering. In fact, he even has 431 00:23:24,286 --> 00:23:27,376 Speaker 2: one expression where he talked about a sauntering of the eye, 432 00:23:27,456 --> 00:23:30,296 Speaker 2: which is a great line, I think. This idea of 433 00:23:30,376 --> 00:23:34,676 Speaker 2: just sort of glancing about, you know, not looking for 434 00:23:34,716 --> 00:23:38,236 Speaker 2: anything in particular, sort of seeing the way you saunter. 435 00:23:39,056 --> 00:23:41,476 Speaker 1: He talked a lot about this idea of us all 436 00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:44,576 Speaker 1: being lazy seers and that we need to see more slowly. 437 00:23:44,936 --> 00:23:46,976 Speaker 1: What did he mean by this idea of seeing more slowly? 438 00:23:48,216 --> 00:23:53,616 Speaker 2: It means slowing down this assumption that you make about something, 439 00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 2: like even what it is you're looking at. It's being 440 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:03,656 Speaker 2: able to remain in a state of unknowing. Now we're 441 00:24:03,676 --> 00:24:07,566 Speaker 2: getting philosophical, you know, and it's an uncomfortable state. This 442 00:24:07,606 --> 00:24:10,926 Speaker 2: is why we always want to lurch towards certainty. This 443 00:24:11,006 --> 00:24:13,706 Speaker 2: is why we put people into boxes. This is partly, 444 00:24:13,746 --> 00:24:16,806 Speaker 2: I think, why this country is so divided, because certainty 445 00:24:16,866 --> 00:24:22,586 Speaker 2: is more comfortable. Henry David Thoreau was more comfortable with uncertainty. 446 00:24:23,006 --> 00:24:26,636 Speaker 2: Or let's just say he was able to tolerate that uncertainty. 447 00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:28,756 Speaker 2: And yes, he did it with seeing, but I think 448 00:24:28,796 --> 00:24:31,436 Speaker 2: he did it with everything in his life. He worked 449 00:24:31,536 --> 00:24:34,336 Speaker 2: at it. I mean, he would look at Walden Pond 450 00:24:34,376 --> 00:24:37,256 Speaker 2: from different perspectives. He looked at it during the daytime, 451 00:24:37,466 --> 00:24:41,866 Speaker 2: at nighttime, on a boat, on the surface, underwater. He 452 00:24:42,006 --> 00:24:45,026 Speaker 2: even would invert his head and look between his legs 453 00:24:45,086 --> 00:24:46,386 Speaker 2: at the pond upside down. 454 00:24:47,106 --> 00:24:49,646 Speaker 1: And this was something that you actually tried out yourself 455 00:24:49,746 --> 00:24:50,946 Speaker 1: when you went to Walden Pond? 456 00:24:51,146 --> 00:24:53,366 Speaker 2: I did. I found a spot where there were no tourists, 457 00:24:53,466 --> 00:24:56,166 Speaker 2: and I turned my head upside down and looked at 458 00:24:56,206 --> 00:24:59,206 Speaker 2: Walden Pond. And I have to say, all the blood 459 00:24:59,246 --> 00:25:00,526 Speaker 2: rushed to my head, and I thought I was going 460 00:25:00,546 --> 00:25:03,236 Speaker 2: to pass out, and it didn't really work the way 461 00:25:03,306 --> 00:25:07,616 Speaker 2: I'd hoped. But I think Henry David Thoreau would say, okay, 462 00:25:07,656 --> 00:25:10,196 Speaker 2: you don't need to do exactly like that. You don't 463 00:25:10,236 --> 00:25:13,756 Speaker 2: have to go nuts going upside down. By the way, 464 00:25:13,776 --> 00:25:16,936 Speaker 2: his real name was not Henry David Thoreau, but David 465 00:25:16,976 --> 00:25:19,196 Speaker 2: Henry Thoreau. He even inverted his name. 466 00:25:19,576 --> 00:25:21,096 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons he's big on the 467 00:25:21,156 --> 00:25:24,426 Speaker 1: inversions is this idea of not jumping to conclusions, this 468 00:25:24,466 --> 00:25:26,846 Speaker 1: idea of sort of not fault finding. I think this 469 00:25:26,926 --> 00:25:29,446 Speaker 1: is something that has big implications for happiness, too, if 470 00:25:29,486 --> 00:25:31,286 Speaker 1: you can kind of open your perspective on. 471 00:25:31,206 --> 00:25:34,446 Speaker 2: Things, right? Yeah, there's a great line that he says, 472 00:25:34,926 --> 00:25:39,746 Speaker 2: the fault finder will find fault even in paradise. And 473 00:25:40,476 --> 00:25:43,576 Speaker 2: I think that's very true. Maybe you've met people like 474 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:45,976 Speaker 2: that or they're on vacation and you're like, wow, this 475 00:25:46,036 --> 00:25:48,426 Speaker 2: is beautiful. But, you know, they're just complaining that the 476 00:25:48,466 --> 00:25:51,626 Speaker 2: food's no good or it's cloudy today, whatever it is. 477 00:25:52,106 --> 00:25:58,626 Speaker 2: But we tend to segregate beauty and whatever the opposite 478 00:25:58,646 --> 00:26:02,946 Speaker 2: of beauty is in our culture. We sequester beauty in 479 00:26:03,186 --> 00:26:06,656 Speaker 2: museums or concert halls. And then we tell ourselves, okay, 480 00:26:06,676 --> 00:26:09,916 Speaker 2: now I'm going to go to the Museum of Modern 481 00:26:09,996 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 2: Art in New York, and I'm going to experience beauty. 482 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:17,796 Speaker 2: And now I'm going to walk down Third Avenue, get 483 00:26:17,836 --> 00:26:21,716 Speaker 2: on the subway, and experience the opposite of beauty. But 484 00:26:21,776 --> 00:26:25,116 Speaker 2: in fact, you may find more beauty on the subway 485 00:26:25,136 --> 00:26:30,326 Speaker 2: and less beauty in MoMA. So it's the idea of 486 00:26:30,366 --> 00:26:34,786 Speaker 2: being open to beauty in the garbage dump and Yeah, 487 00:26:34,886 --> 00:26:36,516 Speaker 2: if you're a fault finder, you'll find it. 488 00:26:37,006 --> 00:26:38,926 Speaker 1: And so in your process of sort of trying to 489 00:26:38,966 --> 00:26:40,976 Speaker 1: get to know Thoreau, you know, you started out by 490 00:26:40,996 --> 00:26:44,376 Speaker 1: saying he seemed very particular and sort of not very relatable. 491 00:26:44,776 --> 00:26:46,636 Speaker 1: Did you wind up thinking that he was the kind 492 00:26:46,676 --> 00:26:48,576 Speaker 1: of person that you should be following more if you 493 00:26:48,616 --> 00:26:49,596 Speaker 1: want to learn how to see? 494 00:26:49,616 --> 00:26:53,056 Speaker 2: I mean, I won't say I came to love him, 495 00:26:53,456 --> 00:26:57,516 Speaker 2: but I came to appreciate him. And maybe with these philosophers, 496 00:26:57,556 --> 00:27:00,216 Speaker 2: that's all we can hope for. I'll just give you 497 00:27:00,356 --> 00:27:03,826 Speaker 2: one example is Thoreau. You know, a few months after 498 00:27:03,846 --> 00:27:07,426 Speaker 2: I was in Concord, Massachusetts, I live in the Washington, D.C. 499 00:27:07,486 --> 00:27:07,686 Speaker 1: Area. 500 00:27:07,726 --> 00:27:11,726 Speaker 2: I was walking down the street and I dropped my 501 00:27:11,746 --> 00:27:14,486 Speaker 2: cell phone. And of course, it landed face down on 502 00:27:14,506 --> 00:27:19,676 Speaker 2: the screen. And of course, it shattered and it's in 503 00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:23,136 Speaker 2: a million pieces. And I'm like freaking out because it's 504 00:27:23,176 --> 00:27:25,916 Speaker 2: my life on there. And I'm trying to text my 505 00:27:26,076 --> 00:27:28,536 Speaker 2: wife to tell her what happened. But I'm texting her 506 00:27:28,556 --> 00:27:31,056 Speaker 2: on a shattered phone and I'm bleeding now because I 507 00:27:31,096 --> 00:27:35,726 Speaker 2: cut myself. I just paused and I, you know, just 508 00:27:35,766 --> 00:27:37,406 Speaker 2: looked at the phone. And I don't know if you've 509 00:27:37,426 --> 00:27:40,886 Speaker 2: ever shattered your phone, but sometimes it can make very 510 00:27:41,366 --> 00:27:46,016 Speaker 2: beautiful designs, these patterns and shapes. And for a moment, 511 00:27:46,176 --> 00:27:48,956 Speaker 2: you know, just a moment, I thought, wow, that's beautiful, 512 00:27:48,996 --> 00:27:54,996 Speaker 2: that shattered phone. And I think Thoreau probably would not 513 00:27:55,056 --> 00:27:58,436 Speaker 2: have a mobile phone. I'm not sure. He would definitely 514 00:27:58,456 --> 00:28:00,416 Speaker 2: have like a low data plan. He would not have 515 00:28:00,436 --> 00:28:03,376 Speaker 2: the unlimited... But I think if he did have a 516 00:28:03,976 --> 00:28:06,436 Speaker 2: low data plan cell phone and dropped it, I think 517 00:28:06,476 --> 00:28:09,136 Speaker 2: he too would find beauty in the shattered phone. So 518 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:12,886 Speaker 2: that's just one example of how Thoreau has stayed with me. 519 00:28:13,806 --> 00:28:15,846 Speaker 1: And so let's talk about what we can all learn 520 00:28:15,906 --> 00:28:18,206 Speaker 1: from this idea of trying to see a little bit better. 521 00:28:18,346 --> 00:28:20,506 Speaker 1: If you're going to give some advice about strategies that 522 00:28:20,526 --> 00:28:22,916 Speaker 1: people could take to try to be less of a 523 00:28:22,936 --> 00:28:24,596 Speaker 1: lazy seer, what would you suggest? 524 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:30,116 Speaker 2: Okay. Number one, I would say is to change your 525 00:28:30,596 --> 00:28:33,516 Speaker 2: notion of what seeing is, to just rid yourself of 526 00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:39,226 Speaker 2: this idea of it being photography. It's much more interactive 527 00:28:39,596 --> 00:28:42,326 Speaker 2: than that. You know, Thoreau would even say that he is, 528 00:28:42,766 --> 00:28:45,326 Speaker 2: when he's looking at an apple, he's kind of collaborating 529 00:28:45,366 --> 00:28:47,326 Speaker 2: with it. You know, if he's looking at the apple, 530 00:28:47,366 --> 00:28:50,206 Speaker 2: the apple's looking at him. Sounds a little nuts, but 531 00:28:50,266 --> 00:28:53,486 Speaker 2: lots of artists will tell you something similar. When they're 532 00:28:53,506 --> 00:28:56,646 Speaker 2: painting something and looking at it, it's a collaborative process 533 00:28:56,726 --> 00:28:58,856 Speaker 2: in a way. So I think one thing is to 534 00:28:58,916 --> 00:29:01,916 Speaker 2: try to think of seeing as less that you're just 535 00:29:02,136 --> 00:29:05,276 Speaker 2: taking from the world around you, but that you're collaborating 536 00:29:05,316 --> 00:29:05,776 Speaker 2: with the world. 537 00:29:06,516 --> 00:29:08,956 Speaker 1: And I love that idea because it really shows another 538 00:29:08,996 --> 00:29:11,616 Speaker 1: thing we can do with our senses, right? Which is 539 00:29:11,656 --> 00:29:15,036 Speaker 1: that we can actually infuse our own kind of preferences. 540 00:29:15,216 --> 00:29:17,466 Speaker 1: We actually have some control over the preferences we bring 541 00:29:17,506 --> 00:29:19,726 Speaker 1: to our seeing. Like we could be fault finding and 542 00:29:19,746 --> 00:29:21,946 Speaker 1: that might be our natural kind of way of going 543 00:29:21,986 --> 00:29:24,406 Speaker 1: about things. But when we start to look for the beauty, 544 00:29:24,426 --> 00:29:26,466 Speaker 1: when we start to look for the delightfulness, we can 545 00:29:26,526 --> 00:29:29,106 Speaker 1: often find it in strange places. And so that's kind 546 00:29:29,126 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 1: of part of the collaboration, right? Is if you say, hey, Apple, like, 547 00:29:32,556 --> 00:29:33,756 Speaker 1: I want to look at you in a different way. 548 00:29:33,776 --> 00:29:35,876 Speaker 1: You're like, oh, actually, you're really much redder than I thought, 549 00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:37,456 Speaker 1: or that shape is kind of neat, you know, or 550 00:29:37,476 --> 00:29:39,956 Speaker 1: the broken phone, like I can find some benefits in 551 00:29:40,016 --> 00:29:42,166 Speaker 1: even looking at those things. It's kind of a process 552 00:29:42,186 --> 00:29:44,686 Speaker 1: of like using your senses to benefit find, as it were. 553 00:29:45,326 --> 00:29:48,686 Speaker 2: Yes. And what you see the first time is not 554 00:29:48,746 --> 00:29:53,276 Speaker 2: the final word. That seeing is a much more fluid process. 555 00:29:53,736 --> 00:29:56,476 Speaker 2: And think about how maybe you've changed your attitude about 556 00:29:56,556 --> 00:30:00,666 Speaker 2: certain places or works of art. Let's take Thoreau and 557 00:30:00,686 --> 00:30:05,226 Speaker 2: Walton didn't care for it as a 15-year-old. As a 50-something-year-old, 558 00:30:05,546 --> 00:30:08,766 Speaker 2: you know, I'm like, hey, it's actually pretty good. Well, 559 00:30:09,626 --> 00:30:11,686 Speaker 2: The book hasn't changed. The words are all the same. 560 00:30:12,506 --> 00:30:15,326 Speaker 2: So that's one thing you could do is to sort 561 00:30:15,346 --> 00:30:19,246 Speaker 2: of suspend this idea of seeing as being something just 562 00:30:19,286 --> 00:30:22,186 Speaker 2: sort of binary, zero, one. You know, it's much more 563 00:30:22,246 --> 00:30:25,426 Speaker 2: than that. The other thing is simply to focus on seeing. 564 00:30:25,486 --> 00:30:28,066 Speaker 2: So Thoreau's advice was to hold all other senses in 565 00:30:28,126 --> 00:30:31,246 Speaker 2: repose while focusing on one. Now, that can work with just, 566 00:30:31,486 --> 00:30:33,806 Speaker 2: you know, closing your eyes to hear something. We do 567 00:30:33,846 --> 00:30:37,186 Speaker 2: that naturally. Or to smell something. But it also means 568 00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:40,126 Speaker 2: blocking out sound when you're trying to see. Hone in 569 00:30:40,166 --> 00:30:42,956 Speaker 2: on that one sense. Biggest advice, I think, is to 570 00:30:42,996 --> 00:30:47,556 Speaker 2: slow down, to just take the time and really see. 571 00:30:48,276 --> 00:30:51,516 Speaker 2: I met with some Therovians, as they're called there, and said, 572 00:30:51,536 --> 00:30:53,796 Speaker 2: you know, where can I go and experience the seeing? 573 00:30:53,856 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 2: And this one guy, a real diehard Therovian, said, you know, 574 00:30:57,236 --> 00:30:59,066 Speaker 2: you don't need to go out into nature because I 575 00:30:59,106 --> 00:31:02,126 Speaker 2: confess I'm not that much of a nature person. Nature 576 00:31:02,186 --> 00:31:05,786 Speaker 2: is something that I experienced between air-conditioned house and air-conditioned car. 577 00:31:05,806 --> 00:31:08,916 Speaker 2: He said, you know, you can go to Starbucks and 578 00:31:09,496 --> 00:31:11,376 Speaker 2: do a little experiment there. So I went to the 579 00:31:11,456 --> 00:31:13,836 Speaker 2: Starbucks in Concord, which, of course, is all done like 580 00:31:14,256 --> 00:31:17,176 Speaker 2: old style, you know, everything's so cute and perfect in 581 00:31:17,216 --> 00:31:21,306 Speaker 2: that town. I spent five hours in Starbucks just seeing. 582 00:31:22,146 --> 00:31:24,206 Speaker 2: You can easily do that, spend five hours there. But 583 00:31:24,606 --> 00:31:26,306 Speaker 2: people start to look at you funny at some point. 584 00:31:26,526 --> 00:31:28,766 Speaker 1: What were some of the beautiful things you saw in Starbucks? 585 00:31:28,806 --> 00:31:29,826 Speaker 1: I'm curious what popped out. 586 00:31:30,766 --> 00:31:32,916 Speaker 2: First, I'm only hearing things because I used to work 587 00:31:32,956 --> 00:31:35,296 Speaker 2: for NPR. So I'm like very attuned to hearing and 588 00:31:35,316 --> 00:31:37,136 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that would be such a good tape 589 00:31:37,176 --> 00:31:40,876 Speaker 2: cut that whoosh of the espresso machine. I was kind 590 00:31:40,896 --> 00:31:44,416 Speaker 2: of an anthropologist and I observed how people stand like 591 00:31:44,856 --> 00:31:47,656 Speaker 2: at the little milk and sugar station where people go 592 00:31:47,676 --> 00:31:52,126 Speaker 2: to tank up and how people will like approach, step 593 00:31:52,186 --> 00:31:54,026 Speaker 2: away and like they'll do almost like a little dance 594 00:31:54,046 --> 00:31:57,606 Speaker 2: with each other. There was this sort of a protocol, 595 00:31:57,646 --> 00:32:00,166 Speaker 2: but everyone was not quite sure of it. Oh, am 596 00:32:00,206 --> 00:32:04,086 Speaker 2: I standing here too long? And just something like that. 597 00:32:04,306 --> 00:32:07,046 Speaker 2: It was like choreographed in my mind and quite beautiful. 598 00:32:07,626 --> 00:32:11,326 Speaker 2: So you don't need to go to the Grand Canyon 599 00:32:11,506 --> 00:32:15,006 Speaker 2: or go to the Louvre to see beauty. It's this 600 00:32:15,066 --> 00:32:18,976 Speaker 2: notion of beauty in the everyday that Thoreau has to 601 00:32:19,016 --> 00:32:22,176 Speaker 2: teach us. And expectations, you know, along with slowing down 602 00:32:22,196 --> 00:32:27,006 Speaker 2: is dropping expectations. And when you start to do it 603 00:32:28,066 --> 00:32:31,446 Speaker 2: with physical objects, you've opened the door, I think, to 604 00:32:32,046 --> 00:32:35,966 Speaker 2: being able to do it with your mental processes. You know, 605 00:32:35,986 --> 00:32:37,876 Speaker 2: this is called the happiness. Having to bring it back 606 00:32:37,916 --> 00:32:42,876 Speaker 2: to that, seeing and happiness, in fact, are closely intertwined. 607 00:32:43,156 --> 00:32:47,156 Speaker 2: A flexible seer becomes a flexible thinker, becomes a happier person. 608 00:32:49,716 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 1: While I've been enjoying my visits to Walden Pond this autumn, 609 00:32:52,616 --> 00:32:54,736 Speaker 1: I do love Eric's reminder that we don't have to 610 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:57,836 Speaker 1: travel somewhere new or spend hours staring at the world 611 00:32:57,926 --> 00:33:01,526 Speaker 1: upside down to see things a little differently. We can 612 00:33:01,546 --> 00:33:04,446 Speaker 1: practice wherever we are, just by taking a moment to 613 00:33:04,506 --> 00:33:07,826 Speaker 1: notice the tiny, beautiful things all around us, to find 614 00:33:07,866 --> 00:33:12,066 Speaker 1: something extraordinary in the ordinary. And maybe, like Eric and 615 00:33:12,106 --> 00:33:15,126 Speaker 1: his shattered phone, we'll start finding a little more wonder 616 00:33:15,346 --> 00:33:18,396 Speaker 1: in places we never thought to look. You can read 617 00:33:18,436 --> 00:33:21,516 Speaker 1: more about Eric's adventures with Thoreau and the other philosophers 618 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:24,716 Speaker 1: he tried to learn from in his book The Socrates Express, 619 00:33:25,136 --> 00:33:28,836 Speaker 1: In Search of Life Lessons from Dead Philosophers. And that 620 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:31,056 Speaker 1: brings us to the end of our fall book series. 621 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:33,896 Speaker 1: But not to worry, as next week we'll be starting 622 00:33:33,936 --> 00:33:36,736 Speaker 1: something a little different. I'll be sharing some of my 623 00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:40,436 Speaker 1: favorite live conversations from the past year, shows I recorded 624 00:33:40,496 --> 00:33:42,816 Speaker 1: with some of my best friends, and the people I 625 00:33:42,886 --> 00:33:45,286 Speaker 1: admire most when it comes to the science of happiness. 626 00:33:46,536 --> 00:33:49,426 Speaker 1: That's all next time on The Happiness Lab with me, Dr. 627 00:33:49,486 --> 00:33:50,286 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos.