1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: This is Tom Rowlands Reese and you're listening to Switched 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: on the BNF podcast, and today we bring you an 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: interview from our BNF Summit Shanghai, which took place on 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: the third and fourth of December. On stage Bloomberg Enief's 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Head of Australia Research, Lenard Quong, was joined by one 6 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: of the most recognizable names in metals, mining and now 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 1: green molecules, the founder and executive chairman of Fortescue, Dr 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:26,279 Speaker 1: Andrew Forrest. Clean energy and low carbon tech requires the 9 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,159 Speaker 1: metals and minerals that companies like for Toscu provide, but 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: major miners are finding that their net zero ambitions are 11 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: under pressure from shareholders seeking to maximize returns. Nevertheless, for 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: Toscu has positioned itself to be both a global metals 13 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: and green energy company. By twenty thirty, they aim to 14 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: have their Australian iron ore operations running on green energy, 15 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: and more importantly, they are looking to achieve this with 16 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: real zero terrestrial emissions for Scope one and two, while 17 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: holding a net zero Scope three target by twenty forty. 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Forrest discusses how he intends to see these goals 19 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: come to fruition, while also taking time to discuss it's 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: the economic viability of green hydrogen in a CCS world, 21 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: and his opinions on global tariffs. Now, let's hear from 22 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: Lenny's interview with Dr Andrew. 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: Forrest Nay, Doctor Forest, and welcome to our tenth Bloomberg 24 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 2: ne EF Shanghai Summit. It is our pleasure to have 25 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: you here with us today and this is a conversation 26 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: I've been looking forward to for quite some time, and 27 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: I figured what better way to do it than to 28 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 2: meet seven thousand kilometers from home in front of seven 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 2: hundred of my closest friends. 30 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 3: Now, I think most people in this. 31 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: Room will know you from your work with Fortescue, where 32 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 2: you're a founder executive chairman. You've been operating the company 33 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: for over twenty years now, congratulations on your anniversary last year, 34 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: and over that time you've grown Fortescue into the world's 35 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: fourth largest iron ore company, shipping over one hundred and 36 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: ninety million tons of product last year and over that period, 37 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: I think Forest has been the highest returning company on 38 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: the Australian Stock Exchange and an incredible feat. 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 3: But an introduction of you. 40 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: As an Australian iron or magnate just seems manifestly inadequate 41 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: because your company, your portfolio of organizations, you're operational in 42 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: almost every continent in the world, across a wide variety 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: of commodities and products. On a personal level, you're a philanthropist, 44 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: you have a doctorate in marine science. You're a climate warrior, 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: a green energy pioneer, a green hydrogen evangelical. You're a jackaroo, 46 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: son of a jackaroo from a foul, proud family of jaqueline. 47 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 4: Say what that is? 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 3: That's an Australian jokes. 49 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: Apologies to the translators for that one, but we can 50 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: google it later on. But amongst all of the long, 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 2: long list of accolades, perhaps rarest of all, at least 52 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 2: in my eyes, is you're a believer in real zero. 53 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: And that's where I'd love to start today's conversation. Could 54 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 2: you tell me what is real zero? 55 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 3: How does it. 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 2: Differ from the more conventional I guess you could say 57 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 2: net zero? 58 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: And why is that the right target for you and 59 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: for for toescue? 60 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 4: Okay, so let's start with a solution, the. 61 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 5: Solution to global warming and climate change for all future generations, 62 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 5: but particular poisoning, atmospheric poisoning for citizens today is the 63 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 5: ability to stop burning fossil fuel. If you stop burning 64 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 5: fossil fuel, then you gather up everything else like agricultural emissions, etc. 65 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 5: You make sure the perfect doesn't get in the road. 66 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 5: Is the very, very good, and it is an economically 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 5: attractive opportunity for every company in the world. It say, Okay, 68 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 5: i'll invest the capital to build out my own green 69 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 5: energy system. It'll have a lump of capital upfront, but 70 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 5: from that point on you'll be saving money every year 71 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 5: from not buying fossil fuel, which in Fortescu's case is 72 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 5: one third of our. 73 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 4: Operating cost, which is billions. 74 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 5: And so from that point on we're saving around of 75 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 5: billion dollars a year on a six billion dollar investment, and. 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: We save it forever. 77 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 5: So it is a very economic proposition to stop burning 78 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 5: fossil fuel. Invest in the equipment you need to do that, 79 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 5: amortize it or repay it over ten fifteen years as 80 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 5: you like, and you'll find you've created a lot of 81 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 5: value for shareholders. Also doing the right thing by your 82 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 5: kids and by your fellow citizens. 83 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: This is a question within that in historically many have 84 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 2: found as a chairman, a board, an executive and certainly 85 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: as a representative of shareholders, the main priority needs to 86 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: be those returns. 87 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 3: It needs to be the performance of the company. 88 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: And some might find that could come in the absence 89 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: of doing the right thing for your kids. 90 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 3: As you just said, it sounds like you found a way, 91 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: and in fact it is the right way to wed 92 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 3: those together. You need to do the right thing. 93 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: You need to deliver on this decarbonization from a company perspective. 94 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: What was that process like for. 95 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: You, And perhaps there's advice for those in the room 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: who might want to mirror that level of ambition. How 97 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: did you convince those stakeholders that this was the right target. 98 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 4: Okay, so there's two things to play here. 99 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 5: One is the absolute certainte of global warming, and that 100 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 5: when there is mass death and I'm afraid to say 101 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 5: that we've had mass death cumulatively from the impact of 102 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 5: humidity on populations who cannot get air conditioning, or extreme floods, fires, 103 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 5: et cetera. That the atmosphere is supercharged with moisture and 104 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 5: it's hot, and that is of course because of the 105 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 5: accelerating heat in the atmosphere. But the bigger question is 106 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 5: that the planetary boundaries which absorb carb and go oxside, 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 5: ocean's land, anything you like. They're starting to reach saturation 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 5: point at exactly the same time that fossil fuel emissions 109 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 5: are going at the opposite direction, accelerating at an accelerating rate. 110 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 5: So you know for certain that governments are going to 111 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 5: move on this. They're not going to watch their citizens 112 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 5: get savagely harmed just because our company's got more lobbyists 113 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 5: than someone else. Eventually it'll come down to the people 114 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 5: and they'll change governments or they'll change policy. So that 115 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 5: certainly is with us, but even more certain for a 116 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,839 Speaker 5: chief executive, and we can be pretty short sighted, not 117 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 5: only more short sighted out there's probably a politician. 118 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 4: That's a joke of my political friends. 119 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 5: But the certainty of the economics of going fully green 120 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 5: is obvious now. 121 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 4: The fact that we can build out our systems. 122 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 5: Companies in China can build out their systems and save money, 123 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 5: deliver their shareholders, their citizens a low cost and predictable 124 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 5: form of energy. And this has really macro implications. If 125 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 5: you look at the pre eminence of China's economy centuries 126 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 5: ago on a global basis and the rise of other powers, 127 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 5: including North America, and you look now out of North 128 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 5: America as the largest economy in the world for now 129 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 5: staring straight down the barrel of going back to fossil fuel. Now, 130 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,240 Speaker 5: that's going to peg their economy to what some oligarch 131 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 5: or despot or some country who happen to be born just. 132 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 4: By luck on top of an oil deposit. 133 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 5: They're going to peg the prices of energy in North 134 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 5: America to the consumer and to the big investors like me. 135 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 5: So if I'm looking at a five or six or seven 136 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 5: billion dollar project in North America and it's pegged to 137 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 5: fossil fuel pricing, and I have to compete around the world, 138 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 5: then I know that some oligarch or despots some other 139 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 5: place in the world could jack up my energy prices 140 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 5: and put it risk that project and the potentially tens 141 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 5: of thousands of people I employ just because of that policy. 142 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 5: On the other hand, those countries going into renewable energy, 143 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 5: I can invest in much more safely because I can 144 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 5: see those energy costs both stable and declining over time. 145 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 5: And this is a great truth. This will speed the transition. 146 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 5: That historic transition which has not happened for centuries, likely 147 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 5: to happen comfortably in our generation as one big economic power. 148 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 5: China goes renewable energy, tracks investment from all over the 149 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 5: world despite tariffs and etc. 150 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: Etc. 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 4: And countries who stick to fossil fuel, they. 152 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 5: Will slide back and you'll see this economic transition, but 153 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 5: it's also a social transition. I have used liberally a 154 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 5: colorful description of the fossil fuel sector desk spots, oligarchs. 155 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 4: Countries happen to be like enough to be born on 156 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 4: top of an all deposit. 157 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 5: Their authority, which is paramount now, the biggest, most profitable 158 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 5: industry in human history. Paramount now is quickly being eroded. 159 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,719 Speaker 5: The power is going to renewable energy, and that's households, 160 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 5: that's companies, that's even governments. They're going to be in 161 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 5: charge of their own energy. And these take a while 162 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 5: to build out. You can have a sugar hit with AI, 163 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 5: you can have a sugar hit with big tech. They're 164 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: going to come and go, and that technology will be 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 5: transferable around the world within a couple of years. But 166 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 5: building out an energy platform for your economy that takes 167 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 5: years and decades, and if you're not doing it, you're 168 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 5: going to come badly second. 169 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 2: And sounds like there's real opportunity that democratization of energy 170 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: that comes from that clean power evolution that we're seeing. 171 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: I'd love to come back to the question of where you're. 172 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 2: Seeing the advantages in different markets, particularly here in China. 173 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 2: But one of the technologies that you have been principally 174 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: behind and supportive is green renewable hydrogen, and that's really, 175 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: in many ways, the step that comes after having that 176 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: abundance of clean, low carbon, low cost power available. 177 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: To you in the market. 178 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,479 Speaker 2: What is it in your eyes that makes green hydrogen 179 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 2: particularly such a key technology for decarbonization, even in the 180 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 2: absence of some of the other talted solutions like carbon 181 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 2: capture and storage. What about it is makes it the winner? 182 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 4: Well, capture storage is not a solution. 183 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 5: It's a technical lie waiting for the next idiot to 184 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 5: come along to believe it. And that's why companies get 185 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 5: tax payers to pay for it, because they basically know 186 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 5: it's likely to fail. It does fail nineteen out of 187 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 5: twenty times. As a statistician, that's failed. So what you 188 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 5: know does work is renewable energy and green hydrogen is 189 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 5: if you look at the technology curve of any of 190 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 5: these great emerging industries, they start like that. 191 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 4: Now onil and gas is up here. 192 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 5: It's had that huge run er, horizontal drilling, everything you like, 193 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 5: better technology, but it's plattered out green. Hydrogen is just here. 194 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 5: And of course within a snapshot of time, people say, oh, 195 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 5: well it's too expensive, everyone's gone. Don't you realize this 196 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 5: war and Ukraine, there's a war in the Middle East. 197 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 5: I mean, oh my god, we've got to stick to 198 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 5: what we know. That's actually the time to change, and 199 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 5: this change is upon us. We're now looking at making 200 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 5: hydrogen as fortescut a fraction of what we were a fraction. 201 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 5: And when people say, oh, Twiggi's getting out of hygien 202 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 5: or he's lost his fam they just don't know me 203 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 5: where at the start of this curve, ladies and gentlemen. 204 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 4: And it's going to go like that. Be assured it 205 00:11:57,160 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: will follow. 206 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 5: History, and hydrogen costs will come down, I think eventually 207 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 5: to the price of transportable LNG, and then there'll be 208 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 5: just no reason whatsoever for any government to encourage their 209 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: citizens to consume an energy which is going to destroy them, 210 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 5: which is pumping particularly poisoning into the air today, affecting 211 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 5: their health this afternoon, and their children's future forever when 212 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 5: they could switch to green hydrogen, that excuse will not 213 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 5: be there. So I'm really looking forward to that time 214 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 5: that I can ask to see if they'll see me 215 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 5: the leadership of the great let's say the great cities 216 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 5: of China, which suffers steel mills around them, particular poisoning, 217 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 5: and say the technology is there super powerful charging six 218 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 5: thousand killer wats an hour, where's the standard is about 219 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 5: three to five hundred. Is there charging these huge machines 220 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 5: like our trucks inside thirty minutes? 221 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 4: Is there charging a family. 222 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 5: In twenty five seconds that's what we're doing on the 223 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 5: racing circuit, ladies and gentlemen right now. Is there making 224 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 5: hydrogen as cheap as commercial energy is coming? And so 225 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 5: I just advise this all, particularly governments, don't be on 226 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 5: the wrong side of history. 227 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 4: You'll be found wanting. 228 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,959 Speaker 2: I mean, you've highlighted the Chinese market in particular, and 229 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 2: it's something that you've been involved in for quite some time, 230 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: whether it's investments and partnerships. I think you recently announced 231 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: a four hundred million dollar deal with XMGC. If I 232 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: remember rightly, for many of the clean transport components that 233 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 2: your mind sights will need that. Over the twenty years 234 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: that Fortescue has been in business, you've been operating here 235 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: in China for all of that time, effectively, can I 236 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: ask you on your views that how have the demands, 237 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: how the needs of Chinese customers changed over that period 238 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: and perhaps more pointedly here in twenty twenty four nearly 239 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, is the market ready for the green 240 00:13:58,720 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: iron revolution? 241 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: That's stick, That is now the time. 242 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 5: So this is the beauty of free trade amongst nations. 243 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 5: And if you put barriers around your nation, like big tariffs, 244 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 5: it's a sugar hit, but in the end of your 245 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 5: country is going to become best competitive. Example, we purchased 246 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 5: billions of dollars right now of zero pollution equipment from 247 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 5: China and Europe white because China and Europe have settings 248 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 5: for their industries to go green, and so their companies 249 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 5: are going green and we can buy that equipment. 250 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 4: One thing which Australia can. 251 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 5: Lead in because it just so happens to have the 252 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 5: highest radiance on top of the best huge deposits of 253 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 5: iron ore, so you've got energy and the molecule together. 254 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 5: That is a walk up start to make green iron metal. 255 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 5: We're doing green iron ore, and it'll be done by 256 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 5: this decade comfortably. But green iron met should also be 257 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 5: done by this decade company, and that means that we 258 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 5: can combine that historically high energy which is on. 259 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 4: Top of these very. 260 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 5: Very large iron or deposits together make green iron metal. 261 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 5: That's where ninety eight percent of the pollution which comes 262 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 5: from steel mills around China, India, wherever you like, comes from, 263 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 5: is from the conversion of iron ore to iron metal. 264 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 4: After that, it's just steel. It's like making a cake. 265 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 5: You put a bit of cobal to lithium or antimony 266 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 5: or this or that. There's fourteen thousand types of stainless 267 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 5: and real steel, but it all relies on this ninety 268 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 5: eight percent, which is very polluting. 269 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 4: Now, if we can kill that pollution off. 270 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 5: In Australia ship it to those countries which have huge 271 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 5: populations where the populations are suffering from that pollution, then 272 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 5: it's a wind wind for China, it's a wind wind 273 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 5: for Australia, and it's bringing our technologies and our management 274 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 5: skills together in partnership. 275 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 4: It is, I think a union which must happen for 276 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 4: the good of the world. 277 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: And it represents no small disruption to establish trade dynamics 278 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: that we've built out for decades across the world. But 279 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: to delve into the question of green hydrogen, I mean, 280 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: and you've highlighted that people who doubt that you're getting 281 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 2: out of the game don't know you. We look at 282 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 2: green hydrogen quite extensively. In our forecast to net zero, 283 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: we found that the world could be producing and consuming 284 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 2: about three hundred and fifty million tons of. 285 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 3: It by the year twenty fifty to stay on that trajectory. 286 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: But that isn't to say that right now the industry 287 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 2: isn't having its problems. 288 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 3: And even at Fortescu, a big. 289 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: Proponent, you have pushed out delayed your fifteen million production 290 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 2: target of renewable hydrogen beyond twenty thirty. 291 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 3: The question, really, though, is what is the missing. 292 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 2: Piece of the puzzle right now that's preventing hydrogen scaling 293 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 2: up in the way that it can that perhaps it 294 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: should in order for us to get these green products 295 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: that the world, as you say, needs. 296 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 3: What's missing? 297 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 4: Okay? 298 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 5: So it's a great question. Often with these global complex riddles, 299 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 5: the solution is right in front of you and you 300 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 5: just miss it. I look at the energy around the 301 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 5: world diesel LNG et cetera. 302 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 4: They're not pure. 303 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 5: LNG is ninety five percent methane and the rest is 304 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 5: rubbish ethane, et cetera. Why do we produce hydrogen where 305 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 5: it's one hundred only that molecule it's so pure, pure 306 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 5: in the driven snow. Why do we have this massively 307 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 5: powerful energy locked up in this glass? And when we 308 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,439 Speaker 5: split the oxygen from the hydrogen, it's pure hydphen We 309 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 5: just release the oxygen. 310 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 4: It's expensive when you wind back from that thing. Well, 311 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 4: does it have to be pure? 312 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 5: What if the impurity is, say, like pure oxygen, which 313 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 5: is not difficult because that's where this. 314 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 4: Comes from, hydron oxygen. 315 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 5: If you can tolerate that impurity, which is fine for 316 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 5: the environment when you burn it, then you can make 317 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 5: hydrogen and a fraction of the cost. And that's what we've 318 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 5: started to do. And it is hydrogen an oxygen pure 319 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 5: with those elements, but it's not pure hydrohen you. We 320 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 5: don't need it to run our turbines, run a run 321 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 5: our hydrogen turbines. We don't need that. We don't need 322 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 5: it to make ammonia to run our ships, to run 323 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 5: our trucks, to run our trains. These are all technologies, 324 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 5: these in gentlemen, which are replicable around the world, not. 325 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 4: Just with Fortescue, but everywhere. 326 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 5: And I'm really excited by the fact that the answer 327 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 5: was always in front of us, and now we're going 328 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 5: to hit it. 329 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 2: It reminds me so much of conversations we were having 330 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: a bit over ten years ago here in China as 331 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: the polysilicon production industry moved from the nine end standard 332 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: for microchips into what became a world leading, world beating 333 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: forduction of silicon four solar panels, And it was that 334 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: conversation of how huge do you need it, how expensive. 335 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 3: Does it have to be that was sort of holding 336 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 3: you back. 337 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 2: I would love to delve into that for hours on 338 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: end with you, to pick your brains for longer, but 339 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 2: unfortunately we are running out of time. I did have 340 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 2: one final question for you. A few months ago, you 341 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: sat down with some of my colleagues to talk about 342 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: the ambitions of Fortescue, and you left them with a challenge. 343 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: You said to them, the next person who sits in 344 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: this seat, ask them when are you going to stop 345 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: burning fossil fuels? And you say, say by twenty thirty, 346 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: give them a big hug. Now, I don't know, but 347 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 2: I think we have rules against hugging guests on stage, but. 348 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true for the audience. So 349 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: is that a challenge you'd like to put to the 350 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 3: audience here today? 351 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: In your discussions, ask the people you meet, when do 352 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,360 Speaker 2: you plan on stop building burning fossil fuels? 353 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 5: Okay, so thank you. That's a great question. So real 354 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 5: zero is simply stopping burning foss fuel. Don't worry about 355 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 5: carbon sigustration, set off offsets, carbon credits, all that rubbit. 356 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 4: It's all a smoke screen. 357 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 5: You've got temperatures going through the roof, net zero twenty. 358 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 4: Fifty there just has too many excuses in it. 359 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 5: But if you just stop burning fossil fuel, you go 360 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 5: real zero, then it's economic for your shareholders. I mean, 361 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 5: Forest US not the highest performing company on Australian stugs 362 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 5: change history. Because we may make bad economic decisions, we 363 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 5: make good ones. It's economic to stop burning fossil fuel. 364 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 5: So I challenge every company in China with this question, 365 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 5: when are you going to stop burning fossil fuels? 366 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: And the answer will be when I. 367 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 5: Fall in love with my shareholders, when I fall in 368 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 5: love with my employees, and I act for them because 369 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 5: that's when I'll peg a date or stop burning fossil 370 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 5: fuel by this date. And I say to the entire world, 371 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 5: real zero, stopping burning fossil fueled by twenty forty is economic. 372 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 5: It's great for your citizens now, it's great for your 373 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 5: kids tomorrow, and it will head off global war real sorry, 374 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 5: by twenty forty. Lightest is the challenge. 375 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: Doctor Forrest, always a pleasure. Please join me in. Thank you, 376 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 3: Doctor Forest for join us today. 377 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 4: Thank you. 378 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 5: Today's episode of Switched On was produced by Cam Gray 379 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 5: with production assistance from Kamala Shelling. 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