1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Null. They call 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul. 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: Mission control decands. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: It is part two in our two part interview with 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: Mike Render, the co creator of Scientology. Fair Game, a 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: deep dive into a controversial organization and institution U with 12 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: exclusive access. We don't want to say too much. What 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: do you say? We get right into it. I think 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: that's a smart thing. Just remember you should listen to 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: episode one first, the first part of this series. Please 16 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: do it if you haven't yet. Cool. All right, So, Mike, 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: I'm imagining I'm an individual because I've never been a 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: part of the Church of Scientology. I thought about getting 19 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: audited once a long time ago. But I'm imagining you're 20 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm an individual who's going up the bridge or I'm 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: I'm traversing the bridge, right I'm not paying like you're saying, 22 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: tons of money almost everything I have, if not more. 23 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: And I get to a certain point that a lot 24 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: of people in the past have talked about, that has 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: been made fun of by south Park and all these 26 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: other people. You get to a certain point in the 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: bridge where you're revealed very secret information that anyone who 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: is behind you on the bridge is not going to know, 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: and you're not going to know unless you're shown this 30 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: secret piece of paper. It has something to do with 31 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: stuff that you can't that in my mind, a science 32 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: fiction writer would come up with, um, can you tell 33 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: us about that point? Yes? Can you? I know exactly right, Um, 34 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: can you tell us about that point? What it is 35 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: in the mental gymnastics maybe that one has to do 36 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: in order to continue on the bridge? Absolutely. That point 37 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: is called O T three and that stands for operating Thetan, 38 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: and Thetan in scientology, terminology means you the spirit yourself, 39 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: not your body, not your mind, but the essence of 40 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: being the id whatever you know. There's lots of terms 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: for it, but in scientology is called the theeton, and 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: operating Thetan is the ultimate objective of moving up the 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: bridge to become capable as a spiritual being of transcending 44 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: the what the world in scientology is called miss Matta 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: and g space and time to transcend those things as 46 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: a spiritual being, because ultimately everybody is a spiritual being 47 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: who that has enormous power and created this whole universe 48 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: and can control this whole universe, but has lost those 49 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: abilities and scientology restores them. And part of this is 50 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: this thing called O T three, which Hubbard wrote and 51 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 1: you you say, you know, only a science fiction writer 52 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: could have come up with it, and it is definitely, 53 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: you know, uh, sort of Buck Rodgers kind of science fiction. 54 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: It is the story of the galactic ruler called Zu 55 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: x e n You, who controlled two hundred and seventy 56 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: eight planets of the Lactic Confederacy seventy five million years ago, 57 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: was trying to solve an overpopulation problem of having how 58 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: you know, I can't even remember how many billions of people. 59 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 1: But he had to get rid of a bunch of them, 60 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: so he called them in for a tax audit and 61 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: tricked them and loaded them into spaceships frozen in glycol 62 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: and flew them to planet Earth as a dumping ground 63 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: for these uh people to get rid of them. They 64 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: were all the recalcitrants, the artists, the the troublemakers of society. 65 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 1: And he dropped them into volcanoes and blew them up 66 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: with hydrogen bombs, and they, those spiritual Thetan beings are 67 00:04:55,320 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: now stuck to you, every person on planet Earth, all 68 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: over your body, thousands and thousands of them, and they 69 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: control and influence your thoughts and actions. But true, this 70 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: is like a creation myth or something. This is like 71 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: the Jonah and the Whale story. It's meant to be 72 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: like a parable, right or is this people really intended 73 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: to get literal? No, it's literal. It's not a parable. Okay, okay, okay, 74 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 1: I mean being clear. Yeah, well, I mean Noah and 75 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: they are. I mean there are a lot of fundamentalist 76 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: Christians that believe that is a literal story, and a 77 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: lot of these other things a literal stories. Scientologists. One 78 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: thing about scientology. Everybody is a fundamentalist in scientology. There's 79 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: no there is no um. I'm sort of a reformed 80 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: Jew kind of guy. I'm kind of an ethnically a Catholic. 81 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic. Nope, you're a scientologist. 82 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: One oh, you're not at all you are you get 83 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: accused of squirreling exactly exactly. In fact, the fundamental, the 84 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: fundamental policy that I'll run Hubbard wrote is called keeping 85 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: Scientology working, and in it it goes on and on 86 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: and on, but in it he says, I'd rather have 87 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: you dead than incapable or not a true committed scientologist. 88 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: So scientologists expected to believe this and have it um 89 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: sort of when when when you're first exposed to this, 90 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be like a magnificent revelation. Oh my god, 91 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: Oh I get it, Oh my god. And there are 92 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: people standing around watching you, like what is what's his 93 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,840 Speaker 1: reaction going to be? So you have to sort of react. 94 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: And Leah and I and a lot of other people 95 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 1: have talked about this subsequently, and you go, wow, this 96 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: is like seriously, this is what this is about? Ship 97 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: What am I supposed to do with this? And this 98 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: is where the genius of Hubbard and the E meter 99 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: comes in, because all these people who have already been 100 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: there will say to you, listen, you don't have to 101 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: believe a word of it. See if it reads on 102 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: the E meter. Just see if it reads on the 103 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: E meter. And if it does, you don't have to 104 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: believe it. You just do it. You just you just 105 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: go along with it, because the E meter will tell 106 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: you whether it's true or not. Now, this E meter 107 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: is a fascinating device that I haven't yet fully been 108 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: able to understand. But a lot of people say, well, 109 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: it just it just reacts to sweat on the palm 110 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: of your hands, and this and that, and I that's 111 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: not true. It doesn't. It reacts to more than that. 112 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: And there's a terrific movie by do you know who 113 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: Tom Shadiac is? He's he was the director of of 114 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: What's that Jim Carrey Pet Detectives, uh Bace Venture and 115 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: and he he was a very successful director and producer. 116 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: And he had a horrendous bicycling accident and nearly killed himself, 117 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: and he woke up from a coma or something and 118 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: he decided, I've got to figure out what the meaning 119 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: of life is. And he made this film called I 120 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: Am and it is him going around the world seeking 121 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: to get an understanding of what is life. And part 122 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: of this I found fascinating, Well, all of it's fascinating, 123 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: but there's a particular thing in there where he goes 124 00:08:56,200 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: to see these quantum physicists and they say, look, you know, 125 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: I I don't want to get into all the subject 126 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: of quantum physics, but it's a fascinating thing. And they 127 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 1: have this This sounds crazy, but they have a bowl 128 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: of yogurt sitting in front of him with these electrodes 129 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: stuck in this bowl of yogurt, and they say, we 130 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: want to show you that emotion can transfer from one 131 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: living organism to another, and that this and and that 132 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: this is a real thing. And I will say to 133 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: you guys, look, I don't know if you've ever experienced this, 134 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: but I certainly have. Where you you walk into a 135 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: room and there is someone in there, and without seeing 136 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: or talking to them, you know they're upset. There is 137 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 1: a vibe that you get. There's a there's upset in 138 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 1: this room, and something is emanating upset and it's not uh, 139 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: it's not a statement. But in any event, this, this 140 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: bowl of yogurt has se down in front of Tom 141 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: and they start asium questions and he's looking at this 142 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: little nida that is measuring some sort of electrical impulse 143 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: in the yogurt, because yogurt is a live organism. It's 144 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: got you know whatever they call those things in there, 145 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: that that what's called cultures. Cultures, Yeah, you know that 146 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: that for your guts? Yeah exactly that what's her name 147 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: promotes on TV that I I can't even think of 148 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: the name now, oh my god, from from Halloween? Yeah, activity, yeah. 149 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: In any event, they're talking to him about all this 150 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: stuff and then they say, now, Tom, what about the 151 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: divorce with your wife? And this little dial goes and 152 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, this is a sore subject for me. 153 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: And he like goes, oh my god, how did the 154 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: how does the yogurt know? And this stop? That's real, 155 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: that's real, that actually happens. Yes, it's in the film. 156 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: It's it is really interesting. And see, I have a 157 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,720 Speaker 1: lot of experience with the e meda, and I know 158 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: that it's not just physical. There is a mental emotional. 159 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: Now what it is and how it works and all 160 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff, I don't know. But if you 161 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: like a trade secret, is there a schematic like is 162 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: that who designed? Where is the patent design for the 163 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: Where does that live? Like? Where is that? Like in 164 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: the U? S? Patent office? Seriously it's in the will 165 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: never know? Yeah? Okay, Well it's a it's a it's yes, 166 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: it's a wheat stone bridge. That is what it is. 167 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: It's a sophisticated wheat stone bridge. What is interesting in 168 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: scientology is a run. Hubbard said that the reactions that 169 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: you get on that meta will if you study scientology, 170 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: you can interpret those reactions. And this is this is 171 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: the incredible trick of it. Because you have someone sitting 172 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: on the other side of you who can see the 173 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: meter and you cannot, and he says, well, you're scientology 174 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: says you've got something undisclosed that you haven't told me, 175 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: so what is it? And you have no idea what's 176 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: happening on the other side. But even if you did, 177 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm only going in this long rambling thing because what 178 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: happens is if you can convince someone that if you 179 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: have a thought, I can tell you what it is 180 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: and I can read it using this little meta here, 181 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: then you're home free because you just sit on the 182 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: You just sit there and go, well, there was a reaction, 183 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: so this means that. And people say to you, well, 184 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: you can look on the meta. Does this read on 185 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: the meta? Is this bullshit about blowing up people in volcanoes? 186 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 1: Reading on the meta or not. And when you instill 187 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: in someone the idea that that is reality, then all 188 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: you need, I don't know, maybe the reaction that you 189 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 1: get when you're looking at it is this is a 190 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: bunch of bullshit. But if you've convinced them that means 191 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: it's true, then it becomes true. This is all subjective. 192 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: There is no objective verification of any of this. There's 193 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: no objective verification that Zenu existed seventy million years ago. 194 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: It's all subjective. And if you can persuade someone that 195 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: this is what this means and this is really true 196 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: because X, and this is really true because I, then 197 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: that's all you have to accomplish. It doesn't have to 198 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: be real, You just have to get them to believe 199 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: it in their head. And that's what l Ron Hobbin 200 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,200 Speaker 1: and Scientology is so brilliant at. And with that, we're 201 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here from a sponsor, 202 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: but we will return shortly and we're back with more 203 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: from Mike Renter. I have a question on this concept 204 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: right of perception, because we know scientology is very, very 205 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: sensitive to its public image. Right as you've discussed, Mike, 206 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: right y one, one thing that I've heard pretty often 207 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: is a great deal of speculation about how many scientologists 208 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: actually exists, because there have been claims that like Scientology 209 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: will say we have x amount of members, and then 210 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: there are clay games from outsiders who say that number 211 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: is is not correct, usually that it's a smaller number. 212 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: Could you speak to that, like is Scientology conflating the 213 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: number of members or is what's going on there? Yeah, 214 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: they count all the body Thetan's that's a joke, is 215 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: that that's what that's what the little things I called 216 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: body Thetan's. No, Scientology loves to say that they've got 217 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: millions of members or ten million or twelve million or 218 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: fourteen million or whatever. It's complete bullshit, complete bullshit. And 219 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: I will tell you it's complete bullshit because I remember 220 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: when I was in the Office of Special Affairs, Heba 221 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: Gent who was at the time the president of Church 222 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: of Scientology International, was being interviewed on the media and 223 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: he said something when I asked the question how many 224 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: scientologists out there? And he said like four million, And 225 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: David M. Scavenge flipped his lid. And so we've been saying, 226 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: we've been saying, we've we're expanding all over the world, 227 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: and we said four million five years ago, so how 228 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: can it still be four million? Make eight? Just make 229 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: it eight. Yeah, double it. We've been saying that, so 230 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: just double it. Give it. Who cares, It doesn't matter. 231 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: And the truth of the matter is there is probably 232 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: my estimate is that there is twenty thousand scientologists in 233 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: the world. And interestingly, Tony Ortega just last week, who 234 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: who has a blog called the Underground Bunker, and he's 235 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: been reporting on scientology since I don't know, since l 236 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: Ron Hubbard was still alive, you know that long ago. 237 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: He Scientology recently put out something that if you reverse 238 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: engineer the numbers they gave, it indicated that there was 239 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: six thousand sea members in scientology. That that's based on 240 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: their numbers, and six thousand sea members in Scientology, believe 241 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: it or not, equates to about twenty thousand scientologists. Yes, 242 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: it's there is a lot more people who have and 243 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: largely these days, members are easier to get than new 244 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: scientologists for two reasons. It's very difficult to persuade anybody 245 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: to come in and get involved in scientology, and not 246 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: to google it like really, and as soon as anybody 247 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: googles it, it's like the game is over. They ain't 248 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: going anywhere near it again. However, there are two exceptions 249 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: to that. One, children of scientologists, the offspring of existing 250 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,200 Speaker 1: scientologists tend to end up in the SEA organization if 251 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: they remain a scientologist through up until they become a teenager. 252 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,880 Speaker 1: Is like essentially scientology boot camp, right, wouldn't you say, 253 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: like a scientology life. It's like full time living, eating, 254 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: and working inside scientology organizations. But in going clear, there's 255 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 1: a whole part of it where the early se org 256 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: was all of these sulmost sensory deprivation things of like 257 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: really whipping people into shape to be completely complicit in 258 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: everything that scientology was about, like you know, swabbing the 259 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: decks and all of this kind of stuff and people 260 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: getting injured like that aspect. That was when, yeah, every 261 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: every person that joins the organization does that for the 262 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: first couple of months. That's like that is the boot 263 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: And the second type of person that Scientology manages to 264 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: to recruit at this point is people from third world 265 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: countries or very poor or oppressed areas like Eastern Europe 266 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: or Central and South America. And they will promise those 267 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: people that they will bring them to the United States 268 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: and get them a visa and give them, how you know, 269 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: someone to live and food and all they have to 270 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: do is work. And for many of those people, the 271 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: the idea of going to the unit and living in 272 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: the United States under any circumstances, with a guaranteed job 273 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: and food is like is like a dream come true. 274 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: And they don't have access to the Internet and they 275 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: get you know, they wouldn't know what to google anyway, 276 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: They're just told by someone, look, you know, here's an 277 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: opportunity for you. And so you find, like in clear Water, 278 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: that a bunch of those members down there hardly speak 279 00:19:52,320 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: English and are literally have become indentured servants because now 280 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: how this stuck. They can't get out, and it really 281 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: is a human trafficking violation. This aspect of scientology is 282 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: in violation of human trafficking laws, and if the law 283 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: enforcement agencies responsible for that could get their act together, 284 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,439 Speaker 1: they would be able to bring an effective case on 285 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: human trafficking. Mike, you're talking about clear Water again. Okay. 286 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: My my grandparents retired in clear Water and I was 287 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: there quite often visiting them when I was a kid, 288 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: and my grandfather would tell me stories, and I was 289 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: never sure how true they were, but there were stories 290 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: about how the city of clear Water was being taken 291 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: over by Scientology, like lots um large I guess large 292 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: amounts of property were being purchased, their Scientology was infiltrating 293 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: the local government there, and a lot of how everything 294 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: was working. Was there any truth to that, Uh, that's 295 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,879 Speaker 1: absolutely true. In fact, there was a except for the 296 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: taking over the government. And I'll explain. There was a 297 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 1: really really good article written by a reporter for the 298 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: Tampa Bay Times called Tracy McManus last year was she 299 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: documented the the efforts that Scientology has made to buy 300 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: property in downtown clear Water. And look, Scientology for a 301 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: long time has owned a lot of property in downtown 302 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: clear Water. It dominates the downtown area with its buildings, 303 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: but it had David mus Scavenge wanted a certain piece 304 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: of property that was owned by the clear Water Aquarium, 305 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: which is, you know, the home to winter the Dolphin, 306 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,679 Speaker 1: and the people in charge of the aquarium did not 307 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: want to sell it to Scientology. They wanted to sell 308 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: it to the city and had an agreement with the 309 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: city that the city was going to purchase it and 310 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: David and for four million dollars or something. And David 311 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: muscavenge one of this piece of properties so badly. He 312 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: came in and offered fourteen million for it for a 313 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: piece of vacant property, a block, you know, half a 314 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: block of vacant property in downtown clear Water. And um, 315 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: they and and David Yates, who was the head of 316 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: the aquarium, said I'm sorry, I made a commitment to 317 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: the city. I am going to sell it to the 318 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: city for their redevelopment plans. And David Muscavage had a 319 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 1: hissy fit started accusing and putting out all sorts of 320 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: of I like he had lawyers writing letters to Penelli's 321 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: County into this and that about how David Yates was 322 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: a criminal and that he was ripping off the he 323 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: was getting paid too much and he was ripping off 324 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: the city and blah blah blah blah blah blah, and 325 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:01,159 Speaker 1: went on an all out campaign against um. David Yates. 326 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: Muscavitt had been trying to smooth schmooze the city for 327 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: a long time and saying I will redevelop downtown clear 328 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: Water and we'll bring in a movie theater and we'll 329 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 1: do this, and we'll do that, and well, you know, 330 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: all these fancy presentations that were done, and when the 331 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: city bought that lot, he went, you know what, fuck 332 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: you all. When a when no longer cooperating and cut 333 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,479 Speaker 1: all communication with the city, And then a whole bunch 334 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: of individual Scientologists started purchasing property in downtown clear Water 335 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: for cash and against that and bought like a hundred properties. 336 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: And downtown clear Water has it's not that big at 337 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: matt As, you know, it's like it's not a very 338 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: big place. Most of clear Water exists at the beach 339 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: and out by the mall, and downtown is not that big, 340 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: and so they basically bought the whole town. Interestingly, the 341 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 1: one thing they have never been able to do is 342 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: get anybody elected. You know. Scientology has claimed that they 343 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: had like twelve thousand members in the clear Water community 344 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: and they have a huge voting block and blah blah blah, 345 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: and that's bullshit. I I known that that was bullshit 346 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: for a long time, but now in particular because most 347 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: of the people that are in the Sea organization there, 348 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: which is most of the scientologists come from Eastern Europe 349 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: and Central America, they can't even vote. They're not citizens 350 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: that can vote, so they have no big voting blocks. 351 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: So last year, me and another one of my buddies 352 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: in in that lives down there, and who appeared on 353 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: the aftermath, Aaron Smith Levin uh Leah and I did 354 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: a show or two shows about clear Water actually, and 355 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: we interviewed this guy called Mark Bunker. And Mark Bunker, 356 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: anybody who watched the show will remember the episode where 357 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: Mark Bunker was sitting on a bench in a park 358 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: that Scientology owns and six police cars came to a 359 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: victim from the bench. Okay, We jokingly said to Mark Bunker, 360 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: you should run for mayor, and then became a little 361 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: more serious about it. And there was an election earlier 362 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: this year for the city Council of the City of 363 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 1: clear Water, and Mark Bunker ran in that election, and 364 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: he ran basically exclusively on the basis of I'm not 365 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 1: scared of Scientology, and I will say the word. And 366 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: most politicians in clear Water have been afraid to even 367 00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,239 Speaker 1: out of the word. They will say the organization in 368 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: our midst, or all religious all religions deserve equal treatment, 369 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: and all this sort of kneely mouth ship, and every 370 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: every citizen of clear Water is tearing their hair out, 371 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: like what are we gonna do about this? They like, 372 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: they've taken over our city? What are we gonna do? 373 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: And Bunka came in said, I'm not scared of him. 374 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: I'll say the word Scientology, Scientology, Scientology, Scientology. Scientology. Then 375 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: took one of the guys who was running against him 376 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: and tried to feed that guy a bunch of you know, 377 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: like oppo research on Mark Bunker, and it's it's such 378 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: a joke because Bunker ended up winning this election for 379 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: the seat on the City of clear Water. The guy 380 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: that Scientology back that they gave all their I mean, 381 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: Bunka got like six thousand five votes. There was five 382 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: people in this race. The second to bottom guy who 383 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 1: was the Scientology candidate, got two thousand, and that means 384 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: that there was not more than two thousand Scientology votes 385 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 1: in the City of clear Water, because you can be 386 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: sure that everyone who was eligible to vote was being 387 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: You gotta get out and vote against Bunka. You gotta 388 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: get out and vote against Bunka. You gotta get out 389 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: and vote against Bunka. And he didn't even come close. 390 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: So Scientology has not got great political clout in clear 391 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: Water through the city officials, but they have great economic 392 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: clout Let's pause for a moment for a brief word 393 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and then we'll return, diving even deeper 394 00:27:52,040 --> 00:28:02,680 Speaker 1: into the story of Scientology, and we're back with more 395 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: from mic Render speaking of clout right and aims of 396 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 1: the organization. This brings me to one question that I 397 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: think is on the mind of a lot of our 398 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,239 Speaker 1: fellow listeners. Here. Maybe it's best to ask what do 399 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: you see as the primary aims or goals of modern scientology, 400 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: Or maybe it's better to simplify it and say, what 401 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: do you see as the future of scientology? Like what 402 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: what do they actually want? What they actually want is 403 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: they want the world to become a scientology world. I mean, 404 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: their aim is to bring everyone and all governments and 405 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: all government agencies into alignment with the goals of scientology. 406 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: That is the stated purpose of the Office of Special Affairs. 407 00:28:53,120 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, they want everyone too. You know. 408 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: The way they put it is to say, we want 409 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 1: everybody to have the benefits of scientology that we have. 410 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: What that translates into is we want everybody to be 411 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: a scientologist. What and that translates into we want to 412 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: be in control of everything in a Scientology fashion and 413 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: run it like a Scientology show. We want to take 414 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: over clear Water and have it be a Scientology city. 415 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: We want to take over Los Angeles. We want to 416 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: take over the entire United States. No, actually, we want 417 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: to take over the whole world. They do want. I 418 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 1: mean you hear scientologists talk all the time about a 419 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: cleared planet, and a cleared planet means everybody is clear, 420 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: and clear is a state in scientology that is achieved 421 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: through auditing of getting rid of your reactive mind, something 422 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: that Hubbard invented to in you know, we're not going 423 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: to get into that, but scientology wants to like every religion. Look, 424 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: this is not unique. Scientology just has much bigger aspirations. 425 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: They are like the flea, you know, the flea on 426 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: the leg of the elephant climbing up the elephant going 427 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: stand back, I'm coming. They're tiny, but they believe that 428 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: they're going to take over the entire world. And this 429 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: is part of the nutty um mindset that fundamentalists anything's have. 430 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: They believe that, truly believe that they are going to 431 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: ultimately prevail, and ultimately they will be the dominant force 432 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: of over all of mankind. Go ask a Jehovah's witness, 433 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: they will tell you exactly the same thing. Go ask 434 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: a fundamentalist of any any religious organization, a fundamentalist Christian. 435 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: Everybody is going to be ultimately a good Christian or 436 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: they ain't gonna exist anymore. They're gonna be wiped out 437 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: in the Second Coming or the Armageddon or whatever. Scientologists 438 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,720 Speaker 1: believe the same thing. Ultimately, everybody is going to be 439 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: a scientologist, and that's what they're working to accomplish on 440 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: the way. That means we're gonna get a lot of money, 441 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: We're gonna have a lot of control over a lot 442 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: of people. That was well said and more than a 443 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: bit disturbing, to be honest with you, But I think 444 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: you make an important point that that's not unique to 445 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: any one fundamentalist organization. They're all proselytizing ultimately, right, their 446 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: expansion oriented. Yeah. But the good news, Ben is scientology 447 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: maybe expansion oriented, but they're expansion handicapped. They are not growing. 448 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: They are getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And that 449 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: is due to information that the end of scientology was 450 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: was predicted with the beginning of the Internet. The Internet 451 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: is the the antidote to all high control mind control 452 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: organizations that exist because information kills them, and when information 453 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: is easily accessible, it is their death. The trick of 454 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: it is if they have intimidated enough people into believing 455 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: that it is dangerous to provide that information, that it 456 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: doesn't get out so easily, and once the information is out, 457 00:32:54,200 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: it's it's it's rat poison. It kills off and and 458 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: ultimately cuts off the source of new members, and that 459 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: it's gonna take a while for Scientology to disappear altogether. 460 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: It's hard, like getting rid of a three billion dollar asset. 461 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: An organization is not easy, but it's it's diminishing, not increasing. 462 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: Mike Render, thank you so much for taking the time 463 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,959 Speaker 1: to speak with us and our audience today. This has 464 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: been a journey off Mike. Everyone. We checked with Mike 465 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: in advance and we we essentially said how much time 466 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: do you have? And we hope that we haven't we 467 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: haven't made you regret regret taking this this journey with us. Uh, Mike, 468 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: you have a blog that we've mentioned before, but we 469 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: didn't say explicitly the name. I would like to point 470 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: out it's Mike Render's blog dot org where you can 471 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: learn more about Mike's work, more about his experiences. Uh. 472 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: And of course, as we mentioned at the top of 473 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: the show, please do check out the podcast, which is 474 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: Scientology Fair Game. In this uh you will find a 475 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: deep dive and exploration that is exclusive that that goes 476 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,439 Speaker 1: into much more detail about some of the things we've 477 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,879 Speaker 1: explored today, when we've just scratched the surface. I think 478 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: it's fair to say, and uh, you know, Mike, we 479 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: will have to have you back on because we have 480 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: so many more questions, but we can't thank you enough 481 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: for spending your time with us today. Really appreciate it. Well, 482 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: thank you all. It's been a real pleasure and I 483 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: will happily come back whenever you uh ready to get 484 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with useless information from Mike Rendow once again. All right, yeah, 485 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 1: we're ready. We want to go full clear. We're down, 486 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: We're down for the alrighty wow. I don't often say this, 487 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,919 Speaker 1: but what a ride. I learned some things I did 488 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: not know today, absolutely, And you know, something that Mike 489 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 1: said struck us today, I think, and it's the concept 490 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: that the Internet, in a lot of ways has has 491 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: started to eliminate the ability for these high control groups 492 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,720 Speaker 1: like you mentioned there have been to to function. And 493 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: it does make me wonder how many out there still exists. 494 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: And I wonder if you listening to this have ever 495 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: been a part of one that maybe we haven't talked about, 496 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: or you've got some personal experience that you want to share. 497 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: And I would just say, we're very much interested in 498 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: hearing that. But you say, shaking your fist at the 499 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: sky and the heavens, how on earth do I tell 500 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: you these things? Well, we try to make ourselves easy 501 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: to find, like Scientology. We're not anti internet. We are 502 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: not anti internet. Oh my gosh. And I just realized 503 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: we didn't ask them about anti psychiatry. That'll have to 504 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,879 Speaker 1: be for another time. I yeah, I had this whole 505 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: thing about villains, but we we didn't get there. Next 506 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:11,919 Speaker 1: time we had on the show. I had a thought 507 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: when he was talking about how the whole tenets of 508 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: the locus of control for the leaders of Scientology is 509 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: to convince people that it's their fault if people are 510 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: being mean to them. Um, I think they probably don't 511 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: like psychiatry because psychiatrists would diagnose that as like classic 512 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: gas lighting. You know, like there there are there are 513 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: names for the ways people treat uh members of scientology 514 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: that I think psychiatry would have some some some things 515 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: to say about. But next time, hopefully. But it's true, Ben, 516 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 1: there are ways you can't get in touch with us. 517 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 1: You can get a hold of us on the usual 518 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: social media channels Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, where conspiracy stuff, conspiracy 519 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,839 Speaker 1: stuff show. Um, we really love the Facebook group. Here's 520 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. That I think is going to 521 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: be a hotbed of discussion around these two episodes, certainly, 522 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: And if you would like to contact us via telephone, 523 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,840 Speaker 1: oh yeah, that's right, that thing that does all the stuff, 524 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 1: it's also a phone. You can use it to dial 525 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:17,120 Speaker 1: one eight three three, best tell I felt close, Good 526 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: luck Paul. And oh and also this is just a 527 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: personal hobby horse. How how much of your identity is 528 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 1: tied to your phone? This has been on my mind 529 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: a lot lately. We've got to do an episode about this. 530 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 1: It's sary, it's frightening. It is way worse than people imagine. 531 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, give us a call. Look, Ben, I 532 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: am not best fiends, okay, just because I play it 533 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: all the time. Doesn't mean that I am best fiends 534 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 1: story for another day. I'm derailing us. We've got to go. 535 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: We would love to hear a review from you. If 536 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: you every time you give us a nice review. If 537 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: this spirit so moves you, then an angel gets its wings. 538 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: Uh Mats Mats Sun says he loves him. No, no, no, 539 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 1: not this time now. Now I just feel compelled to 540 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: buy another booster pack of matching the gathering. So again 541 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: it's it's you're making me spend money, but it's for 542 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: a good cause. And our boss tells me I am 543 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 1: one week awave, one week further away from being fired. 544 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: So congratulations. Thanks. So, if the spirit so moves you, 545 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: let us know. And if you if you have something 546 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: on your mind and you don't you don't feel comfortable 547 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: putting it out on social media where you don't want 548 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 1: to give us a call. We do try to make 549 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: it easy to contact us, no matter what time of day, 550 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 1: no matter what time of year. You can always reach 551 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: us directly at our good old fashioned email address where 552 00:38:47,280 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy at I heart radio dot com. Stuff 553 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: they Don't Want You to Know is a production of 554 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart radio, 555 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 556 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:18,240 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.