WEBVTT - Deciphering Elon Musk's Politics 0:00:03.960 --> 0:00:06.760 Well, Elon Musk gives now the richest person on the planet. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.040 More than half the satellites in space are owned and 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:12.080 controlled by one man. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.200 Starting his own artificial intelligence company. 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.239 Well, he's a legitimate, super genius. 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:18.919 Legitimate, he says. 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:21.560 He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:22.040 be different. 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:23.040 He'll vote Republican. 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:25.800 There is a reason the US government is so reliant 0:00:25.800 --> 0:00:26.200 on him. 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.040 Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:32.880 Anything he does is fascinating. 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:44.760 People. Welcome to Elon Ink, where we discuss Elon Musk's 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.120 vast corporate empire, his latest gambits and antics, and how 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:51.800 to make sense of it all. I'm your host, David Papadopolis. 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:55.000 This week, we'll discuss some of the fallout from Musk's 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.880 dramatic appearance at the New York Times deal Book Conference. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.280 One of many noteworthy moment, which is when Elon began 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:02.520 talking politics. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:04.240 I let's say I'll vote for Trump, but I mean, 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:09.160 this is definitely a difficult choice here. 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.520 It's not news that Elon has been moving to the 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:14.440 right in the past few years, but it's been a 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.679 complicated turn. It doesn't fit neatly with his leadership on 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.560 electrifying vehicles to address climate change. But on the other hand, 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.080 he's taken an anti woke stance in his post on 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.560 X among other moves like moving some of his manufacturing 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.320 to Texas. Oh, and he also told advertisers to go 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.280 fuck themselves. We'll come back to that to figure out 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:38.800 what Elon's role could be in American politics as we 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.440 enter a presidential election year. We have Sarah Fryar, who 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.559 leads our big tech team here at Bloomberg. Hello, Sarah, Hello, 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.000 Dana Hull, who covers Tesla among other musk projects, Dana 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.760 Hey Hey, and Max Chafkin, senior reporter at Bloomberg BusinessWeek. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:56.400 Hello. 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:58.920 Okay, So a moment ago, we played a bit of 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:01.080 musk discussing that we would vote for next year with 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.080 Aaron Ross Sorkin at the New York Times Deal Book Conference. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.000 Here's that full exchange. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.560 Could you see yourself voting for President Biden if it's 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.280 IF's a Biden Trump election, for example. 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.160 I think I would not vote for Biden. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:16.440 You'd vote for Trump. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.720 I'm not saying I'd vote for Trump, but I mean 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.120 this is definitely a difficult choice. Yeah, you know, would 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:25.640 you vote. 0:02:25.440 --> 0:02:28.040 For Nicki Haley. Nicki Haley, by the way, wants all 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.600 social media names to be exposed. 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.480 As you know, No, I think that's outrageous. Yeah, no, 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.160 I'm not going to vote for some pros and censorship candidate. 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:42.240 Okay, Dan, So let's start with just a primer on 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:44.280 Elon's political leanings. 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.440 Well, I mean, I think, as we've all said, they're complicated. 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.359 He does not neatly fit into a box. And I 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.679 think he's really a political chameleon who kind of waxes 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.840 and waynes depending on how it impacts his businesses and 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.639 personal all fortune. So, when Tesla was a young company 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:08.280 that was really struggling for survival and President Obama was 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:12.079 elected and the Recovery Act poured millions of dollars into 0:03:12.080 --> 0:03:15.800 Silicon Valley companies that were investing into clean tech, Tesla 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.640 was a big beneficiary of that, and you know, Musk 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.120 was widely viewed as kind of like a left leaning 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.160 climate change champion. And then we you know, fast forward, 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.480 Trump is elected in twenty sixteen, we have the pandemic, 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.800 and Musk kind of more publicly moved towards the right. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.680 I think the clip that you just heard really speaks 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.080 to this long standing beef that Musk has had with 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:41.560 President Biden that goes way back to like August of 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.760 twenty twenty one, when Biden invited Detroit automakers to the 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.040 White House to kind of celebrate electric vehicles and Tesla 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.080 was notably not invited. And that is like this snub 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.520 that still eats away at him. 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:57.880 Yeah, it still sticks in his cross And we're gonna 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.600 we're gonna dive in depth into that. And second, but 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.680 before we do, Max, chameleon is a term I've heard 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.320 you also use a lot for Musk and his political 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:07.680 and he's politics. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.560 Absolutely yeah, And and I mean Dana didn't mention, but 0:04:09.600 --> 0:04:13.480 of course George W. Bush was president, you know, during 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:17.320 the early days of SpaceX and during Musk's early engagement 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.479 with Tesla, and and there was sort of an even 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.760 earlier era of Musk talking about Tesla and his old 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.760 his whole empire and kind of vaguely libertarian terms. I mean, 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:30.160 people think of him as this environmentalist, but early on, 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.000 the whole pitch from Tesla was that it was a 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.800 better sports car than a Porsche. Elon was a Porsche driver, 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.680 and he was like, I'm gonna make I'm gonna make 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:40.839 a car that's even better than this. And and I 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:44.239 think that was kind of, you know, pitch to appeal 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.640 to the kind of George W. Bush, you know, compassionate conservatism. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:50.560 So he's he's moved over the years. And and I 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.119 think what's what's sort of notable about the Biden beef 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.440 that that Dan is bringing up here is sort of 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:59.040 just how wrong footed Elon Musk has been. 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:00.200 He he is. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:03.080 This is like the first time since the Bush administration 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:05.839 where he hasn't been able to find a way to 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.400 get on good terms with the person who's in the 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:08.919 White House. 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:12.320 Everyone wants to talk about the snubs, so let's go 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.080 into it. Elon at deal Book spoke at length about 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.040 it and sort of spoke about it in kind of 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.360 somewhat raw terms. It's clearly still very personal to him. 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:27.440 I mean, without any doing nothing to provoke the wide administration. 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.840 They held an electric vehicle summit at the White House 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.479 and specifically refused to let Tesla attend. This is in 0:05:32.480 --> 0:05:36.000 the first six months of the administration, and we inquired, like, 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.320 we literally make more electric cars than everyone else combined. 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.400 Why are we not allowed? Why are you only letting 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:46.520 you for GM, Chrysler and UAW and you're specifically just 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:48.880 allowing us from the EV summit at the White House. 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.920 We've done nothing to provoke them. Then Biden went on 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.080 to add insult injury and publicly said that GM was 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.920 leading the electric car revolution. This was in the same 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:01.960 quarter that Tesla made three hundred thousand electric cars and 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:04.320 GM made twenty six. Does that seem fair to you? 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.600 So, Dana, can you indeed can hear in his voice 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.520 how it still really bothers him. I mean, the truth 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.279 of the matter is he's got something of a point here. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.680 It would be a little bit like talking about the 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:23.120 Professional Football League in commaning a conference with it and 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:24.279 not inviting the NFL. 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.240 Right, Well, I think it's beyond that. I mean, it's 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.279 not just the emission of Tesla. It's that Biden went 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.520 sort of above and beyond to heap praise onto General 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.680 Motors and Mary Bara and you know, I mean, Biden 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.760 visited this GM factory in Detroit, and he took a 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.520 spin in an electric comer and he said, Detroit's leading 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.320 the leading the world in electric vehicles, and he sort of, 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.440 you know, praised Mary barras like leading the revolution. I mean, 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.960 that is really not fair. Any history of the ev 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:56.000 industry knows that GM really fought tooth and nail against 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.320 Tesla's ability to sell to consumers directly. They had the 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.720 EV one pro that they shuddered. So it's not just 0:07:02.800 --> 0:07:05.880 that Tesla is like omitted from all these like pomp 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.880 and circumstance shows at the White House lawn. It's that 0:07:09.000 --> 0:07:12.040 like Biden is like keeping praise on GM and and 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:14.760 like barely mentioned Tesla at all until we called him 0:07:14.760 --> 0:07:17.720 out on it. And that's what feels very personal form Musk. 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.520 And that's why going into the selection cycle, like he 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.960 is not inclined to vote for a man who he 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.239 has publicly called a damp sock puppet. 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:31.400 He's extrapolating beyond Biden to in the last midterm he said, 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:32.760 don't vote for Democrats. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:37.200 Right, Yeah, he has indeed gone from Biden to the 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:43.000 whole Democratic Party. 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.160 It might not be fair, but it's it's politics. 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:51.560 It's not surprising that Joe Biden, a kind of Democrat 0:07:51.600 --> 0:07:55.400 who ran on on pro union, you know, bring the 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.360 jobs back to Detroit type credentials, would go around celebrating 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.440 union auto shops, especially given you know, Elon Musk's history 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:04.680 with unions, which we've talked about on. 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:05.440 The show all the time. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.440 And and of course Elon Musk is not used to this, 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.440 He's not used to to dealing with this kind of 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.200 politician in Joe Biden, and and it again, it's it's 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.280 surprising to me that he hasn't tried to find a 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.280 way to embrace Bidenomics or whatever you want to call 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:22.800 Joe Biden's politics. 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:24.800 Because of course he could. He has a very. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:28.680 Compelling pitch to offer Democrats if he wanted to. 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.200 Right, So you're you're basically saying that the chameleonic Musk 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.800 of years past would have gotten over the hurt feelings 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:38.320 or whatever, and we just rolled with this. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:39.920 That's what I would have expected. 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:41.840 What may be going on here is just that Elon 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.240 Musk is a lot bigger than he was earlier. So 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.120 in the old days, you know, any president is going 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.080 to sing single out a uh, you know, American job creator, 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:54.920 startup from Silicon Valley that's doing pretty well. Suddenly we 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.320 have this guy who is the world's richest man, who 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.240 is you know, has a political has spoken out against 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.680 unions in the past, and that makes him harder perhaps 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:07.800 for somebody like Biden, or really any presidential candidate to 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:09.600 just fully embrace. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.520 Especially with the backdrop of income inequality, inflation, people not 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.920 being able to you know, afford basic things in their minds, 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.080 even if it's improved. I think he really wants to 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:27.120 speak to the working class in America and being really 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.960 close with the world's richest man is not a good look. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.280 And let's be honest, Michigan is critically important to Biden's 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.920 re election campaign. The Detroit Automakers are based in Michigan. 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.120 There is no real value add to coosing up to 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:43.120 a billionaire who has moved to Texas. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.280 Yeah so he' right, he's got plants in California, foregone 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:51.120 conclusion in elections and Texas foregone conclusions in election. Michigan. Yeah, 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.480 always you know, up for grabs, which again comes back 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.920 to Max's point about chameleonic Musk in the past would 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:58.320 have just sort of seen it for what it is. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.440 But let me throw this at you, Dan, I mean, 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:04.840 is it also possible that his ability to roll with 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:07.600 Biden and find a way to become sympathical with him 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:12.840 also just perhaps reflects how the pandemic actually really affected 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.360 him and sort of by him meaning Elon and just 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:19.280 kind of drove him ideologically further to the right. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:20.760 That's part of it. 0:10:21.040 --> 0:10:23.920 I think what's weird about this is that Biden's Inflation 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.880 Reduction Act keeps billions of dollars onto climate change efforts 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:32.640 through everything from like a manufacturing text credit, which Tesla 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:37.400 really benefits from, to funding for electric vehicle chargers all 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.920 over the United States, to like, you know, a ten 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:44.000 percent credit for refining raw minerals in the US, which 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.760 is why Tesla now has this lithium refinery in Corpus Christy. So, 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:51.280 you know, Musk, as much as he likes to sort 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.640 of portray himself as being a self made man, really 0:10:53.640 --> 0:10:58.360 does benefit from government programs, government programs designed to combat 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.600 climate change. Would think that there would be some kind 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.199 of detente where they could put the personal grudge aside 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.760 and just sort of, you know, move forward and talk 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.920 about the benefits of the IRA. But that's that's not happening. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.079 And I think what's so so wild about this these 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.440 clips that we just heard from Deal Book is Musk 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.960 is saying he's not inclined to vote for Biden, but 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:22.600 he's not. He hasn't yet endorsed a Republican candidate either, 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:25.960 and that Republican field is really narrowing, and it's like, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:29.200 what is his game here? Like he sort of, you know, 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.839 did the speak show of coming out with DeSantis, then 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.840 he sort of was flirting with Vivek, and but now 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:36.800 he's saying he won't he's not inclined to vote for 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.920 Nicki Haley. So like, who's left? Like, is Musk gonna 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.040 get behind Chris Christie? 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:41.440 Right? 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:43.920 Well, well, Max, you describe it like he's basically getting 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:45.760 behind a handful of Rump candidates. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:46.200 Yeah. 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.360 I mean that's the thing in that clip that to 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:53.199 me is most surprising his refusal or hesitancy to say 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:55.960 that he would vote for Donald Trump, who is, you know, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.920 way way ahead in the in the Republican primaries, is 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:00.319 the presumptive nominee. 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:01.439 And and to me. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.480 It just shows how politically marooned Musk is. So in 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.040 certain ways, right, Okay, he's got he's got some beef 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.560 with the Democrats. Fine, that kind of makes sense, but 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:12.559 he also has beef with Donald Trump. 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:14.840 Trump has responded, how has he responded? 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.360 Trump has responded by insulting him back, you know, on 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.160 the campaign trail, and it's it's not that surprising because Trump, 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.000 like Biden, also wants to win over these autoworkers, right, 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:24.920 they're they're they're. 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.920 But I don't think that Musk really works in alliances. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.600 I think he works in enemies, and I think that 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.480 the you know, deciding that Biden the Democrats are enemies 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:40.000 is more important to him than deciding which Republican he 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:42.760 wants to align with and support, because he needs all 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.160 of them right now, like he needs the state based 0:12:45.200 --> 0:12:50.880 politicians for launching, launching his rockets, selling his cars. You know, 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.960 all of those regulations around car sales are very state oriented. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:59.480 So what's what's the benefit to him of making any 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:00.920 any like choices. 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:05.200 He's got a lot of to Sarah's point, business interest 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:07.800 in Florida, Right, I mean, let's start back at the beginning, right. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.360 Didn't this whole this election cycle start for him with 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:16.559 the with the Ron DeSantis X launch that went oddly? Max? 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.960 Yeah, yeah, he Uh, Ron DeSantis launched his presidential candidacy 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:24.880 on X. Elon had actually praised DeSantis before. I think 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.240 I believe he in fact said he was, you know, 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.600 inclined to support DeSantis in twenty twenty four. Then Elon 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.880 sort of shifted to the vek Ramaswami as as Dana 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.520 is saying, and he's at times expressed, uh, you know, 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.520 a little maybe a little curiosity about RFK, who's you know, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:45.760 was running as a Democrat. He hosted him on a 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.480 yeah yeah, now running as he yes, he hosted him 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.880 on x uh and and RFK of course now running 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:53.040 as an independent. 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:54.720 And I think in all these. 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.199 Candidates you can see why there's appeal to for somebody 0:13:58.240 --> 0:13:58.959 like Elon Musk. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:03.520 Now, Dana tell us how historically involved has he been 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:06.599 as a donor and activist. Does he punk down a 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.240 lot of money in these elections? 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:08.720 Traditional? 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:09.760 Not at all. 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.240 I mean that's the big thing. Musk is a loud voice, 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.760 but he is not a big donor. He doesn't have 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.000 a pack that we know of. He's always like donated 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.480 very small to both sides of the aisle, but never 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:24.640 been a big player in presidential campaigns. He's not like 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.560 a budler. I mean, there are a lot of big 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.840 money donors on both sides, you know, who typically give 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.640 a lot to presidential campaigns, and Musk has never been 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.200 that way. So That's what's sort of curious to me 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.520 as we head into twenty twenty four. What does an 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.320 endorsement from Musk even mean? Does he give you money 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:42.760 or does he just sort of like platform you on 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:43.560 his platt Well. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.120 Right, but Sarah, so he that is a pretty big platform, right. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.320 Well, this will be this will be the first election 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:53.440 where he owns X. There was obviously the midterms where 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:56.640 he put his finger on the scale saying, don't vote 0:14:56.640 --> 0:15:01.240 for Democrats, vote for Republicans. And this presidential election is 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:06.440 going to have obviously much bigger consequences, and he can 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:10.040 really shape the narrative however he wants. He's shown us 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.800 that that he will promote his own tweets. He will, 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:18.440 you know, decide what content stays and goes, decide when 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.680 to ban people and how to ban them if at all, 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:26.400 and keep them keep them posting. So, even though X 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:31.520 has declined in advertiser revenue in some of its cloud, 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:36.440 it still has this this outsized impact on the political 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.400 conversation because it is the real time network. And so 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.880 if he if he is open about who he's supporting, 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.160 you can imagine that we'd want to know a little 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.360 bit more about how X is treating that decision, if 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.800 at all, in its algorithm, in its moderation choices, in 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:01.560 its advertising choices, it could have a big impact. 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.560 I just to push back a little bit on what 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.400 Sarah was saying, Like, I think there's always been real 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:13.120 questions about how influential Twitter is actually has actually been 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:16.200 on the political pop process it had. It definitely gets 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.800 things in front of journalists. So insofar as there are 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.880 journalists still on X, which they are to some extent 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:23.960 but not as much as they used to be, there's 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:27.480 potential for influence there. But just you know, counterpoint is 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:33.360 the vik Ramaswami did really well on X. He was 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.240 embraced by Musk, platform by Musks, and he has gone 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.720 absolutely nowhere in the Republican president Like he's you know, 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.120 he's at like something like five percent in you know, 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.800 polls in Ohio, Iowa, and New Hampshire. So I don't 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.280 know how big the impact really is going to be. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.360 You don't just have to think about what he does, 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:52.520 but what he chooses to not do. I think about 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:58.640 like what Twitter did after the January sixth insurrection. They 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.640 banned Trump, they started fact checking people, They sort of 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:06.679 tamped down the radicalization that was happening, not entirely, but 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:10.879 enough alongside Meta there was like this united front by 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:15.480 the platforms that they that they needed to do. You know, frankly, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:19.800 too little, too late, but I think as a lot 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.480 of people thought of it that way. But I think 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:25.879 that that shows, you know, if you have a platform 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:32.199 with fewer rules around political speech. As Musk says, he 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:37.119 cares deeply about how quickly are people going to radicalize 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.280 in a situation where they disagree with the outcome? 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.920 All right, we do indeed need to talk sports, so 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:49.960 we'll we'll segue to there. Okay, welcome back. So, as 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:53.600 we've talked about in the past, advertisers have been fleeing 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.600 X in drobes. This topic came up in the deal 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:00.920 Book interview and it was the most explosive moment by far. 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:03.879 If somebody's going to try to blackmail me with advertising, 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:11.400 blackmailing with money, go for yourself, but go fuck yourself. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:17.040 Is that clear? I hope it is? Hey, Bob sharing 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:17.960 the audience. 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.600 Okay, Sarah. So that's the landscape out there right now. 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:28.800 That's the tone right now between Elon Musk and X 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:34.960 versus or Visa VI its corporate clients, but one, curiously 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:39.199 one remains and remains pretty close to X and that 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:41.800 is the National Football League the NFL. 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:48.280 Why there's a lot of history there. Twitter had a 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:52.520 CFO who was the former CFO of the NFL, Anthony Noto, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.360 and back around the twenty sixteen twenty seventeen era, he 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.440 created a lot of deals, including a deal Forday Night 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:05.040 football to be streamed on X Sorry Twitter, which is 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:05.960 what it was called back then. 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.320 And it trained you too well, Sarah, you know it's 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:09.360 actually I know, I. 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:12.640 Just spent too much time covering this company, But that 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.280 was that was a big deal because Twitter has a 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.639 much smaller audience, but at the time it was considered 0:19:18.800 --> 0:19:23.960 the only place where those kind of real time conversations occur. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.200 If somebody has an amazing touchdown or if somebody gets injured, 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.400 you are going to see people just posting about it, 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:36.520 even you know, out of context, assuming that everyone else 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:38.919 on Twitter that they follow or that there is in 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:42.520 their community is also watching the game. And that made 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:47.199 sports more fun, and it made it something that was like, 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.200 you know, the shared experience. Even if you weren't watching 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.520 the game with friends, you could feel like that that 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:56.840 you know, excitement. 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:59.920 And that community remains that community. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.159 It doesn't have anywhere to go. I mean, I think 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.679 it's kind of a default. You're on Twitter because like 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.080 that's where your people are. I will say I've seen 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:14.640 the NFL start to embrace other platforms more they are 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.359 they're you know, not really finding It doesn't seem like 0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:21.440 they're finding an alternative either. They have to be on 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.160 X and there's not many brands that that can say 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:25.520 that they have to be there. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:25.879 Still. 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.359 Now, the NFL is the most dominant sports league in 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:31.919 this country, and frankly, in terms of all entertainment, it 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.119 pretty much dominates the US landscape. You look at the 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:37.400 top eight most watch shows all of last year, one 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.040 through eight are all NFL football games. You look at 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:44.159 the top twenty most valuable sports franchises in the US 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:47.919 fifteen of the twenty. Does this relationship with the NFL 0:20:47.960 --> 0:20:50.040 at a time when so much is going wrong for 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.399 X Sarah? Is it actually a road to financial viability? 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.640 Is it something is it a model that can work 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.639 off of or is it ultimately still just too small 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.000 and in scale to add up? 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.000 Well, I think it's a legacy thing. I don't think 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.879 it's something that they're building. That's just the default behavior 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:12.160 from the years of work that Twitter did before. And 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.480 in fact, what we are seeing is the algorithm is 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.879 changing on Twitter to be more about entertainment less about 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:25.600 real time, and we've seen Musk embrace memes and posts 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:28.240 that are maybe a little older, posts from people you 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:32.320 may not be following. And so it doesn't seem to 0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:35.960 me like Twitter being the place where you go to 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:39.760 see what's happening in the moment is really the thing anymore. 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:41.919