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There isn't anything better that 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 2: you can do with failure, no matter how unjust, than 29 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: to learn from one of the most articulate men of 30 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: our time, clinical psychologists turned culture warrior, doctor Jordan Peterson. 31 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: The man who prefer short term mating opportunities are psychopathic, narcissistic, 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 2: acuabellion and sadistic. So one of the unintended consequences of 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: the sexual revolution is that the freed up women have 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 2: been delivered to the psychopathic men. Most people who have 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 2: post traumatic stress disorder don't have it because they were hurt. 36 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 2: They have it because they encountered someone who wanted to 37 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: hurt them. People can go through all sorts of horrible 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,519 Speaker 2: things and not be traumatized. You wait till you tangle 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 2: with someone who's malevolent, boy, you will not be the 40 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: same person afterwards. The dark te trad males are differentially 41 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 2: attractive to women, mostly younger and naive women. 42 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: How does the woman even begin to detect or notice 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 1: the difference? 44 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: The Number one health and Wellness podcast, Jay said. 45 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: Us, Hey, everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place 46 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 1: that you come to become the happier, healthier, and more healed. 47 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: Today's guest is someone that I've wanted to talk to 48 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: for over six years, and I can't believe it's taken 49 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: us this long to be in the same room for 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: that much time. But we are finally here. And he 51 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: said it to me a few moments ago that maybe 52 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: this is the right time. And I always trust time 53 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,519 Speaker 1: in that sense and timing, So I'm very grateful to 54 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: finally have on on Purpose. Dr Jordan B. Peterson, author, psychologist, 55 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: online educator and professor at the University of Toronto. The 56 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: Peterson podcast frequently tops the charts in the education category, 57 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: and if you're not a subscriber, I promise you you'll 58 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: want to be after this episode. Doctor Peterson has just 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: launched Peterson Academy with hands selected professors from top universities 60 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: around the world. It's received an incredible amount of acclaim already. 61 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: If you haven't checked it out, makes you check it 62 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: out after this episode. Jordan has written three books, Maps 63 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: of Meaning and academic work presenting a new, scientifically grounded 64 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: theory of religious and political belief, and the best selling 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: Twelve Rules for Life one of my favorite books, and 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: Beyond Order, which have sold more than seven million copies. 67 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: And Jordan's fourth book, We Who Wrestle with God, will 68 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: be released this November. Please welcome to On Purpose, Dr 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: Jordan B. Peterson. Jordan, it's great to honestly finally be 70 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: with you. As I was saying to you, I was 71 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: kindly introduced by my dear friend Lewis House to Michayla 72 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 1: around six years ago, and that's when this conversation started. 73 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 1: So I really appreciate you making the time and. 74 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: I'm being forward to it. Yeah, and I appreciate the invitation. 75 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: I feel so many people today, I'm sure you hear 76 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: this a lot as well. They feel that they're surrounded 77 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: by toxicity, whether it's at home, whether it's at work, 78 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: whether it's online, they feel like they're in a space 79 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: where they can't become more they at least from their perspective. 80 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think some of that's actually a technical problem, 81 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 2: and I think it's an extremely serious problem in our society. 82 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: So we've invented these new communication technologies which we're utilizing now. 83 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: The long form discussion seem to be pretty radically on 84 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: the positive side of that, I would say, but the 85 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: discourse on places like Twitter, Facebook, in comments sections and 86 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: so forth is pretty degenerate, and I think the reason 87 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: for that is that the evolved mechanisms that we use 88 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,239 Speaker 2: in face to face real world discourse have been stripped 89 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: away in the electronic domain. And the problem with that 90 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 2: is twofold. The first problem is the exploitative, sadistic psychopaths 91 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: have free reign because they're not held responsible for their utterances. 92 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: They're anonymous. They get rewarded for the propagation of their 93 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: emotionally arousing material. The algorithms will capitalize on it, and 94 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: that's a very toxic combination. And then the anonymity as well, 95 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 2: like we know perfectly well from a vast array of 96 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 2: psychological experiences that normal people anonymized are much more likely 97 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 2: to let the negative part of their character have free reign. 98 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: And so I really see this as a technical problem 99 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 2: is that societies and psyches are always threatened by what 100 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 2: they call the dark tetrad personality proclivities, narcissism, machiavelianism, psychopathy, 101 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: that's parasitical predatory. A parasitical predatory is a psychopath and sadism. 102 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 2: And you have those impulses within you, and there are 103 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: people who are primarily characterized by those motivations. We have 104 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: evolved mechanisms for keeping that under control, but they're all 105 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 2: dispensed within social media. And so what seems to be 106 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: happening is the dark tetrad types are hijacking the political 107 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: discourse on the right and the left, polarizing and dividing 108 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 2: and capitalizing on that. And it's catastrophic socially and psychologically. 109 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 2: But they benefit from the ensuing chaos by attracting attention 110 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: to themselves in a manner that's undeserved and counterproductive. I 111 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: think the danger in that is sufficient that it's civilization threatening. 112 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: I mean, we can't underestimate the power of these electronically 113 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 2: mediated communication networks. They're insanely powerful. And they amplify people 114 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: to a degree that's almost unimaginable. And so the manipulators 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: and the bad actors have disproportionate influence on our Peterson 116 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: Academy website. We have a social media network, and we're 117 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: trying to incorporate all the features of social media networks 118 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: that have made them attractive. But our system differs from 119 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: let's say Twitter. Why, Well, there's a payment barrier, and 120 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 2: you might say, rather it was free. It's like HM 121 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 2: free A. If it's free, you're the product. And if 122 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 2: it's free, there's zero barrier to your exploitation. Right, So 123 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: the bad actors, you could I think this is probably 124 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: a rule. In a social communication system that's free, the 125 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: psychopaths come to dominate because they can take it. It's 126 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: not free because you're devoting your attention A and attention 127 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: is valuable and the bad actors can take advantage of 128 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 2: your attention and pay zero price. Well, if you set 129 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 2: up a system where actors can take advantage of your 130 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: attention for zero price, the psychopaths are going to dominate. 131 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: So one of the things we might hypothesize, I don't 132 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: know if it's true, is that there should be a 133 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: price barrier to all social media interactions. If it's free, 134 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: the bad actors will dominate. And then the other thing 135 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 2: we're trying to do is to well encourage and reward 136 00:08:55,160 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: positive interactions. But we're also going to take the responsibility 137 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 2: of identifying the small number of people who will repetitively 138 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,319 Speaker 2: misbehave and just ask them to leave. Now, you know 139 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: that raises the specter of something approximating censorship, let's say, 140 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: But I don't think it's reasonable to draw a direct 141 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: line between censorship and not putting up with immature psychopaths. Like, 142 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 2: that's not the same thing. It's not opinion based. I've 143 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: been attacked by the psychopathic types on the left and 144 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 2: on the right. It's politically agnostic. And so because the 145 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: psychopathic manipulator types, they'll use whatever system of ideas is 146 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: at hand to further their own machinations. And I think 147 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 2: you can distinguish the psychopaths. I mean, I use some 148 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: rules online when I'm dealing with comments. If you're anonymous, 149 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: you're questionable. If you're anonymous with a demonic name, you're 150 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 2: definitely questionable. And a lot of anonymous accounts have names 151 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: that are Luciferian. You know, I guess that's part of 152 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: the edginess. If you use lol, lmfao, if you use 153 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,599 Speaker 2: derisive names, those are all indications of bad actors. Like 154 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: I think you could characterize the bad actor space quite clearly. 155 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: You do that with diagnostic criteria. But we have this 156 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: situation now where the social media spaces are overwhelmingly tilted 157 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 2: in a negative direction by the predatory psychopaths. 158 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: Do you believe that things are as divided as they see? 159 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: No, I know they're not. They're speaking with one of 160 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: my friends today, Greg Hurwitz, who has been doing polling 161 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 2: trying to identify statements of conception that Americans radically agree on, 162 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 2: and he has a list of about fifty that eighty 163 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 2: five percent of Americans agree on. They're very foundational things. No, 164 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 2: I don't believe it at all. I think that they're 165 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 2: is a fringe of the dark tet tread types who 166 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: are radically stirring the pot and that the algorithms and 167 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 2: the anonymity and the costless nature of the communication is 168 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: facility enabling them. Yeah, and it's extremely dangerous. 169 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: How do we not let the average mind, how do 170 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: we not let ourselves become consumed by believing that is 171 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: reality when that's all we're explaining that. 172 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know how you do that. 173 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: I mean, I think part of that might be realizing 174 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: that that is happening. You know, it'd be useful for 175 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: people to familiarize themselves with the symptoms of what's called 176 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: cluster B psychopathology, borderline personality disorder, narcissism, psychopathy, antisocial personality, 177 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: histrionic personality, to know who those people are so and 178 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: to start to become aware of that. I think that's 179 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 2: actually harder for people on the left. And the reason 180 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 2: for that, I believe is that agreeableness tilts people towards 181 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,319 Speaker 2: the radical left because agreeable people are highly empathic, and 182 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 2: they tend to think of anyone who's suffering as a victim. 183 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: The problem with that attitude is that it doesn't arm 184 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: you very well with an understanding of evil, because truly 185 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 2: malevolent people camouflage themselves as victims and they take advantage 186 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: of the empathic. So and that's a big problem because 187 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: the last thing you want to do if you're truly 188 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: empathic is enable the sadists, right, and there's no shortage 189 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: of that. We know, for example, there's a developing psychological 190 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: literature that shows that the active anonymous troll types are 191 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 2: much more likely to be characterized by dark tetre traits. 192 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: Is there a way that we can affect that at 193 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: more of a root level so that there's a oh. 194 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: I think that one of the things that social media 195 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: operators should do is they should separate the anonymous accounts 196 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 2: from the verified accounts. So, for example, I would like 197 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: to see it on Twitter, where the verified accounts you 198 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 2: see their comments, and then there's a hidden space underneath 199 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 2: which is anonymous accounts, and if you want to click 200 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: on that and look through what the troll demons have 201 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: to say, you can. It's a little trip to hell. 202 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 2: You're not required to do it, and they're separated from 203 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: the people who will stake their reputation on their words, 204 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 2: which is what you do when you genuinely identify yourself. 205 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 2: You know. Now, the anonymous types like to say, well, 206 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 2: you know, anonymity is necessary because in a tyrannical state, 207 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 2: only the anonymous can tell the truth. And my experience 208 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 2: with that is that for every one in ten thousand 209 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: brave anonymous whistleblowers, there's nine nine hundred and ninety nine 210 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: sadistic macuabellions, and so you might think that you're a 211 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 2: brave truth teller in the confines of your anonymous, demonically 212 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: named account, but probably you're just a sadistic trouble maker. 213 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: So I think that would be And then the other issue, 214 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: it probably is cost. Like free. First of all, freeze 215 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 2: an illusion because there is nothing that's free. At least 216 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 2: you're paying with your attention and your time. It's not 217 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: free your data and well that's the next thing. You're 218 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: also paying with your identity and all your behavioral data, right, 219 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: and so none of that's free, and so that's an illusion. 220 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things we have observed 221 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: with Peterson Academy, because the social interactions there are very 222 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 2: positive and pretty much universally so hopefully will establish that 223 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 2: as a what would you say, a cultural convention, right, 224 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 2: But I'm certain that a fair part of that is 225 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: just that you can't produce one hundred troll accounts for 226 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: nothing and do nothing but cause trouble because at minimum 227 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: it's going to cost you some money. So I think 228 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: we can probably dispense with maybe eighty percent of the 229 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: bad actors just by not making it free. So no 230 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 2: one knows, right. This is why I have sympathy, let's say, 231 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: for people like Mark Zuckerberg and for Elon Musk sort 232 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: of equally, even though they're not necessarily on the same 233 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: side of the political spectrum. It's like Zuckerberg gets hauled 234 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 2: to Congress and raked over the coals. But it isn't 235 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: like as if we can assume that he knows how 236 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: to solve this problem, because the psychopathic parasite problem is really, 237 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: really old, and those sorts of people are very good 238 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: at manipulating communication networks, and there's no reason to assume 239 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: that some of them aren't equally good in the new technologies, 240 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: you know, and Musk is Musk's approach is something like 241 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: a radical free speech approach. But I just sat with 242 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: one of my friends here actually this morning. This is 243 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: Greg Hurwitz I was telling you about. And he's done 244 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: some forensic investigations, first of all, indicating how much of 245 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: the troll activity on social media networks is fine by 246 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: international actors iran topping the list, let's say, which is, 247 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: you know, unbelievably horrible, And then how much of the 248 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: pathological content is generated by a very small number of 249 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: bad actors. With disproportionate influence. You know twenty twenty bad 250 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: actors on Twitter like seriously malevolent people who are working 251 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 2: to cause trouble full time. They can punch way above 252 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 2: their weight, way above their weight. 253 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: Not good and good, There's no saving them. I couldn't 254 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: be more excited to share something truly special with all 255 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: you tea lovers out there. 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So visit Drinkjuni dot 272 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: com today to elevate your wellness journey and use code 273 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: on Purpose to receive fifteen percent off your first order. 274 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 1: That's drink Jauni dot com and make sure you use 275 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: the code on Purpose. Hey everyone, it's Jay Schetty and 276 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm thrilled to announce my podcast tour. For the first 277 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: time ever. You can see my on Purpose podcast live 278 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: and in person. Join me in a city near you 279 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: for meaningful, insightful conversations with surprise guests. It could be 280 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: a celebrity, top wellness expert, or a CEO or business leader. 281 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: We'll dive into experiences designed to inspire growth, spark learning, 282 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: and build real connections. I can't wait to see you there. 283 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: Tickets are on sell now. Head to Jayshetty dot me 284 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: and get yours today. 285 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 2: Well The CLUSTERB psychopathologies are notoriously resistant to psychotherapeutic intervention. 286 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, this kind of goes back 287 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 2: to the discussion of pride. They're very unlikely to come 288 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: for counseling because and if they do, they're the sort 289 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 2: of people, and I'm dead serious about this, they're likely 290 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: to announce themselves as the sort of person that the 291 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: therapist is very lucky to be interacting with, right that 292 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: there's no doubt that this will be at least as 293 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: advantageous for the therapist as for the client, and that 294 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: they're the sort of special person who has graced this 295 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: office with their presence. And that's not a word of exaggeration. 296 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: I had some pretty pretty unpleasant child molesting psychopaths, for example, 297 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: in my clinical practice, and the one that I remember 298 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: most particularly was unbelievably good at putting himself forward as 299 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,600 Speaker 2: a pillar of the devoted, misunderstood pillar of the community. 300 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: It was just his constant refrain. Absolutely unteachable and antisocial 301 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 2: personality is notoriously resistant to psychotherapeutic intervention. It's the same 302 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 2: with histrionic, borderline, narcissistic, unbelievably stable personality trait. 303 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: What's your aim and potential target with an individual like that, 304 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: like where could your practice even take. 305 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 2: Well, what I did try when I had those people well, 306 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 2: and that was often court mandated, and I would never 307 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: I think court mandated psychotherapy is a contradiction in terms 308 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 2: because you have to come there voluntarily for it to work. 309 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: My approach with people like that was to appeal to 310 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: something like their more extended self interest, which would be well, 311 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 2: I don't know if you noticed their buddy, but you know, 312 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: your constant interference with children has decimated your marriage and 313 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 2: your family, and you've been in prison for it, and 314 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: you know people are on to you, and so a 315 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: wise narcissistic psychopath might tone it down a bit, but 316 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: I wouldn't claim for a moment that that had any 317 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,719 Speaker 2: effect whatsoever. You know, the degree of cynicism that characterizes 318 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,120 Speaker 2: someone like that is almost, it's almost it's very difficult 319 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 2: to develop an appreciation for evil. It's not a fun 320 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 2: place to go, and to do it properly, you also 321 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: have to start to recognize it in yourself, and that 322 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: is not pleasant. And as I said, for example, the 323 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 2: naive empathic types, they really do believe that most of 324 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: the criminals are misunderstood victims. And you know what's terrible, 325 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: about that is that some of the criminals are misunderstood victims. 326 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 2: You know, there are people in prison who, under duress 327 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 2: of various sorts, made one extremely stupid mistake and ended 328 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: up seriously punished for it. Okay, so let's just put 329 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: those people off the table. We can ignore them. One 330 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: percent of the criminals commit sixty five percent of the crimes. Okay, 331 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: So those are the people that we're looking at, recalcitrant, 332 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: repeat offenders with a proclivity for violence. Okay, can you 333 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 2: repair them? Know, the standard penelogical theory is that part 334 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: of their problem is actually delayed maturation. For whatever reason, 335 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 2: you just put them in prison till they're in their 336 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 2: late twenties, and then they're much less likely to reoffend. 337 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 2: Why did they learn. That's one way of thinking about it. 338 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: They're less impulsive and sensation seeking as a consequence of maturity, 339 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 2: and likely some of it is just delayed maturity, but 340 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 2: it has very little to do with rehabilitation and a 341 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: lot to do with age. You know, the male crime 342 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 2: curve spikes at fifteen, and even among normal males, let's say, 343 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 2: they're much more likely to misbehave as testosterone and maturation 344 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 2: kick in and then you see a return to something 345 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: approximating normal behavior, usually by the time of twenty four 346 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: or twenty five, when men take on more of the 347 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: mature responsibilities of life, and the criminal pattern is approximately 348 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 2: equivalent to that, although the lag to maturity is longer. 349 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: But no, it's there's no evidence that I find credible 350 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 2: that the cluster B psychopathologies are amenable to psychotherapeutic intervention. 351 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 2: I don't think so. And they're also generally a very, very, 352 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 2: very very You need a lot of very to make 353 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,119 Speaker 2: that right, very difficult population to work with, and you 354 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: do that at your peril. 355 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think listening to you, the idea of false 356 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: compassion can be used so against us, and an immature 357 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: level of the development of empathy and compassion is easily 358 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: taken advantage of. 359 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: Well, we know this because one of the things we know, 360 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 2: for example, is so the dark tet trad males are 361 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: differentially attractive to women, but mostly younger and naive women. Okay, 362 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: So why Well, the typical dark tet trad type is 363 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: very confident and not anxious. Okay, So why would that 364 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: be attractive to women? Because men who are competent in 365 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 2: their domain are confident and not anxious. What the predatory 366 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: psychopaths do is mimic that, and naive women can't tell 367 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 2: the difference, and so they can be more attracted to 368 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: the dark TETDRAD types, especially when they're young. And then 369 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: there's the addition complication that the even more pathological dark 370 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 2: tetrat types are very good at appealing to empathy by 371 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 2: making claims of victimization. It's a nasty game, and the 372 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: people who are good at it, they're better at it 373 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: than you are at detecting it. I knew Robert hare Hey. 374 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 2: Robert hare was the first clinical psychologist who really delved 375 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: into psychopathy and non clinical psychopathy, and he recorded two 376 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: hundred conversations with brutal criminal psychopaths, and he was quite 377 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: an agreeable person, Robert Hare And he said invariably that 378 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: while he was talking to them, they had him convinced, 379 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: and it wasn't until afterwards when he was watching the 380 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: videos that he could see the tricks. And that's because 381 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: these people are watching you more than you're watching them, 382 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 2: and they're seeing which tricks work on you. And that's 383 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 2: the game of the that's the goal of the game. 384 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 2: Like if I was doing that I'd be thinking, Okay, well, 385 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 2: I'm going to get this guy to smile more right, 386 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to see if I can I'm going to 387 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: see which lies I can get him to swallow, because 388 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: then i'd be testing you, let's say, for your gullibility. 389 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 2: And so I'd start out with a little lie and 390 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: watch you, and then if you swallowed it, I'd get 391 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 2: a good boost of superiority, which is partly what I'm after. 392 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 2: And then i'd try, you know, another lie, and if 393 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 2: you detected that, well, i'd move in another direction, sort 394 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 2: of map you for your gullibility, and then i'd find 395 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 2: out how you could be exploited, and that'd be the 396 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 2: whole purpose of the conversation. Yeah, and then well, and 397 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 2: then add to that the fact that I've practiced that 398 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 2: for thirty years and that maybe I'm as smart as 399 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 2: you are, or possibly smarter, right, I mean, it depends 400 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 2: on the situation. 401 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: But how does a woman even begin to detect or 402 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: notice the difference. 403 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: Well, part of the way that women have done that 404 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: historically is by not going out with people they don't know, right, 405 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 2: that aren't part of their social network, you know. And 406 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 2: one of the things about the psychopathic predators is that 407 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 2: they're not very good at maintaining social connections and so wow, 408 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 2: that's huge. Yeah, oh yeah, Well like the dating apps 409 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, there are there are complete 410 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: open play playing ground for the psychopathic types. There's something 411 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 2: even worse about this, actually, So the sexual revolution was 412 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: predicated on the idea that we could alter female reproduction 413 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 2: patterns so that they could act like men, basically because 414 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 2: men are more likely to take a short term mating opportunity, 415 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: and the promise of reliable birth control was that that 416 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: avenue of possibility would be open to women. Okay, And 417 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 2: you might say, well why not, because you know, sexuality 418 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: is pleasurable and if you could reduce the cost, why 419 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: not do it? All right, So that's what we've been 420 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 2: experimenting with for sixty years. Okay. Well, one reason is 421 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 2: that hormonal birth control alters female's perceptions. So women on 422 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 2: the pill don't like masculine men as much. And what 423 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 2: that's done to us politically and sociologically, no one knows. 424 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 2: It's a big deal, and we don't know. But the 425 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 2: other thing that's happened is so imagine that there are 426 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: you could imagine male reproductive strategies as being on a continuum. 427 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: There are men who are more inclined towards long term, committed, 428 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,560 Speaker 2: monogamous relationships, and there are men who are more committed 429 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: to short term, hedonistic, pleasure seeking relationships. All right, So 430 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: now imagine you took these men and you analyze their personalities. 431 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,919 Speaker 2: And you took these men and analyze their personalities. Well, 432 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 2: that's been done. The men who prefer short term mating 433 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:49,959 Speaker 2: opportunities are psychopathic, narcissistic, machiavelian, and sadistic. Right, So, one 434 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: of the unintended consequences of the sexual revolution is that 435 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 2: the freed up women have been delivered to the psychopathic men, right, 436 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 2: And it's the consequence of that we don't know. We 437 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 2: don't know. We know that young people are less likely 438 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 2: to have relationships. We know that the birth rate is plummeted. 439 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: We know that people are much less likely to get married. 440 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 2: How much of that is a consequence of the destabilization 441 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: of the reproductive pattern by hormone birth controls. No one knows. 442 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 2: It's not like it was a minor revolution, right, it 443 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 2: was a major technological revolution. But the terrifying thing is, 444 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 2: and women should know this is like the guys that 445 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: are just out for a good time. They're not much fun, 446 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: and they're a lot worse than you think. And the 447 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: worst of them are so much worse than you think 448 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 2: that if you ever got to look inside their mind, 449 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: you would never recover. And I'm not saying that lightly. 450 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,959 Speaker 2: It's not pleasant, Like the worst of terrible people are 451 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: so bad. I'm not making this up. Most people who 452 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: have most traumatic stress disorder don't have it because they 453 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: were hurt. They have it because they encountered someone who 454 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: wanted to hurt them, right, and so it was that 455 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 2: glimpse of that malevolence that fractured them. It wasn't People 456 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 2: can go through all sorts of horrible things and not 457 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: be traumatized. You know, a terrible illness, terrible pain, an accident. 458 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: You wait till you tangle with someone who's malevolent. Boy, 459 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 2: you will not be the same person afterwards, assuming you 460 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: managed to put yourself back together at all. So this 461 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: is not and it's many of those people too that 462 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: have free reign online. It's not a good thing. 463 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: You brought up identity, and I feel that so much 464 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: of our subscription to ideas of identity are somewhat subconscious, 465 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: and I'm not sure anyone's have a at least not 466 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: that I know the scale of people who are thinking 467 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: about their life in a logical way to say, let 468 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: me think about what my identity is. I think we 469 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: join community, we join groups, we leave communities, we leave groups, 470 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: We sign up to this, we unsubscribe from that. We 471 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: don't even recognize that we're subconsciously crafting an identity by 472 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: the people we spend time with and the people we 473 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: listen to. It often isn't acidly. Yeah, it isn't as 474 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: a which stories. By the way, that's a good observation. 475 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: I mean. One of the things I've realized in one 476 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: of the themes that is developed in this new book 477 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: is the notion that so when you're introduced to someone, 478 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: you'll tell them a story about who you are, so 479 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 2: you describe your identity. A story is a description of 480 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: that implicit identity that you described, So you see the 481 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 2: world through a structure of identity. That doesn't mean you 482 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 2: know what that is. As you pointed out, when you 483 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: tell a story about yourself, what you're trying to do 484 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 2: is to approximate. You're trying to encapsulate that implicit identity 485 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 2: into something that's communicable, and then that something that also 486 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: becomes explicitly understandable to you. This is partly what dreams do. 487 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: So in the dream, your implicit identity reveals itself, but 488 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: not entirely coherently and not entirely verbally. If you take 489 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: a dream and you interpret it, if you have the 490 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: good fortune to be able to manage that and maybe 491 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: some help, you're moving the information that's part of your 492 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 2: implicit identity upward into something that's more explicitly recognized. Like 493 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: what you'd hope is that what you're actually pursuing pre 494 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: consciously or unconsciously is mapped very well by your self description, right, 495 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 2: because then you're a person that has a certain degree 496 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: of integrity who you think you are and who you 497 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 2: are the same thing. That's an optimal situation, that's the 498 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: pursuit of something like integrity, say in moral development, maybe 499 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 2: in psychotherapy, in a relationship that's positive and productive. It's 500 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: all moving towards that end. And it's very useful to 501 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 2: understand that what stories do is stories are the manner 502 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 2: in which implicit identity makes itself explicit. And so the 503 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 2: Biblical stories, for example, are part of the process, the 504 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: historical process by which the developing morality of individuals as 505 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: they become more complexly civilized, reveals itself to those cultures 506 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: and to the participants. It's a dynamic process, and it's 507 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 2: much better to understand the stories that way. You know, 508 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: the atheist types tend to belief in God says, belief 509 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 2: in something like the great Genie in the sky, the 510 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: sky Daddy, I think, the benevolent sky Daddy, which is 511 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 2: the terminology that people like Richard Dawkins used. But that's 512 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: a very it's a dismissive parody of the phenomena. It's 513 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 2: not a reasonable approach because the realm of religious conceptualization 514 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 2: is far more sophisticated than that parody would indicate. Like 515 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 2: I mean, let's take the idea that the divine reveals 516 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: itself as the call of adventure. Well, this is a 517 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: serious idea to contend with. So what it implies is 518 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: that there's a spirit, so to speak, a process, a 519 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: dynamic that reveals itself within us, that captures what interests 520 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 2: us and compels us forward in consequence. And that following that, 521 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 2: so when God comes to Abraham, he makes Abraham an 522 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 2: offer like a very explicit offer. This is the Covenant 523 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: of Yahwa, and it's a very interesting offer. And I 524 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 2: read it from a psychological perspective, even from an evolutionary 525 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 2: biological perspective. God. This is how God is defined by 526 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: the way. So God makes Abraham an offer. So Abraham 527 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: comes from rich parents, and there's no reason for him 528 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: to do anything. From the purely material perspective, everything that 529 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 2: he could want is already at hand. And it actually 530 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: takes Abraham seventy years to get moving right because he's 531 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: an old man by modern standards. When the voice of 532 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 2: adventure comes to him and it says something very very 533 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 2: specific to him, it's not vague at all. It says, 534 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 2: you need to leave the comforts of your land and 535 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 2: home and you need to voyage out into the great unknown. 536 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 2: So it's like a quest story. Like the Hobbits say, 537 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 2: away you go from comfort. Well, then the first question 538 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 2: you might ask if you had that impulse is well, 539 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 2: why I have everything that I would need, assuming life 540 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 2: is based on that kind of need right at hand. 541 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 2: So what's the benefit to me of moving beyond the 542 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 2: zone of infantile dependence and comfort. That's a question everybody 543 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 2: faces always especially if they're provided for adequately or even 544 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 2: excellently by their parents. What should impel you out into 545 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: the world and why bother? Well, God tells Abraham something 546 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 2: very specific. He says, if you abide by the voice 547 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 2: of Adventure, you'll be a blessing to yourself. Okay, that's 548 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: a good deal, because it's very frequently the case that 549 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: people's people don't have an existence that's a blessing to them. 550 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,320 Speaker 2: They suffer a lot. They're anxious, they're grief stricken, they're resentful, 551 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: they're angry, they're self contemptuous, they're vicious. There's all sorts 552 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 2: of ways that their existence is not a blessing to them. 553 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 2: So the offer that the Voice of God as Adventure 554 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 2: makes to Abraham is that if you follow this pathway 555 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 2: of adventure, your life will actually you'll start to experience 556 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 2: your life as a blessing. So that's a good deal. 557 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 2: Just that alone, if that was true, that might be 558 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 2: good enough to motivate you right to think that's okay, 559 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: that's the pathway forward to self acceptance, let's say, or 560 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 2: something like a sophisticated self esteem. But that's not the 561 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 2: whole offer. The second offer is you'll become known among 562 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: your peers and validly. And that's very interesting because you know, 563 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 2: you can think about people as corrupt power seekers who 564 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 2: are clambering for status, or you can be less cynical 565 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 2: and you could say, well, we're wired such that we appreciate, 566 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 2: do consideration for our genuine efforts. Okay, so if my 567 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: reputation is established on valid basis, that means that I'm 568 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 2: appreciated by the people around me, but that there's a 569 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 2: valid basis for that. That's the offer. That's part two. 570 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,680 Speaker 2: So you're blessing to yourself in a manner that enhances 571 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 2: your reputation and you deserve it. That's a good deal 572 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: if you could have that. Then there's another offer, which 573 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: is you'll get those two things, plus you'll establish something 574 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 2: of lasting significance. Because Abraham is the father of nations, 575 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: like he's the founder of a dynasty. So not only 576 00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 2: will you have those first two things, but it'll propagate 577 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: across time. You know, and it's often the case when 578 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,359 Speaker 2: people are looking for something meaningful that they think, well, 579 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 2: I'd like to do something of lasting value. Right. There 580 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 2: seems to be something intrinsically motivating about that, and so 581 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 2: you think well, that's a good deal. And then the 582 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 2: fourth thing is you'll do it in a way that'll 583 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 2: be a benefit to everyone else. So there's nothing selfish 584 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 2: or narcissistic about it. So you think about what that means. 585 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 2: It implies that the instinct of adventure that compels you 586 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 2: beyond your zone of comfort is allied psychologically and socially, 587 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 2: so that if you follow it, you'll be a blessing 588 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 2: to yourself. You'll have a reputation that's esteemed and deserved. 589 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: You'll conduct yourself so that you produce things of lasting value, 590 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 2: and it will be good for everyone else. Well, that's 591 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 2: an excellent deal. And it speaks of a harmony between 592 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 2: the advanced psychological motivation that pulls you forward and your 593 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 2: emotional states plus productivity and integration into the broader social community. Well, 594 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 2: I think that's right. I can't see how it can 595 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 2: be otherwise, because the counter hypothesis would be the force 596 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 2: that motivates you forward acts at cross purposes, to say, 597 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: sociological stability. And I can't see how we could be 598 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:25,840 Speaker 2: genuinely social animals productively socially animals, which we are, and 599 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 2: there be some intrinsic conflict between the force that moves 600 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 2: us forward, and the force that brings people together, why 601 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 2: not assume that they exist together in a kind of harmony. 602 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,399 Speaker 2: I mean, we're adapted to the social world anyways. That's 603 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 2: one of the avenues that I had explored in We 604 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 2: Who Wrestle with God. And there's more in the Abrahamic 605 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 2: story that's quite remarkable too, because the other thing that 606 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,320 Speaker 2: Abraham decides to do this is so cool when you 607 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 2: understand it, is that So imagine you know this in 608 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: your own life. Ame you move towards a new destination, 609 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: and that requires a kind of growth. So you might ask, well, 610 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 2: what does that growth consist of? And in the Abrahamic story, 611 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 2: it consists of sacrifice. So every time Abraham makes a 612 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 2: transformation in identity, he makes a sacrifice. Well, that is 613 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 2: what happens when you make a transformation of identity, because 614 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: as you grow and mature, you have to shed those 615 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 2: traits people, even situations, material possessions, geographic locale, whatever. You 616 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 2: have to shed all of that if it's interfering with 617 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 2: your progress forward. And so what you see in Abraham's 618 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,640 Speaker 2: life is a series of adventures, each of which are 619 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 2: marked by a sacrifice that move him upward towards a 620 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,600 Speaker 2: higher and higher and more integrated form of being. Right, 621 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 2: he's the redeemer of cities at one point, and there's 622 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: nothing in that that doesn't seem accurate to me psychologically. So, 623 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: and it's an exciting thing to understand because it's the 624 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 2: Abrahamic story is the template for individual development. That's a 625 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,560 Speaker 2: good way of things. Abraham is the first real individual 626 00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 2: in the Western canon, and the stories very it's very 627 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,760 Speaker 2: psychologically astute once you understand the basic reference, once you understand, 628 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 2: for example, that sacrifice at least in part, means dispensing 629 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 2: with something you once valued but has now, say, become 630 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: an impediment, and so well. So that's a little bit 631 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 2: more a description of the domains of thought that I've 632 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: been wandering in. No. 633 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: I deeply appreciate the way you're analyzing and observing a 634 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,800 Speaker 1: religious text that can often be seen as a story, 635 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,520 Speaker 1: a lesson, a message, and actually looking at it as 636 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: closely linked to human development and part of my training. 637 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: I did something similar with the bugger Ghita, which is 638 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: the text of the East, and it's similar. There's a 639 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 1: conversation between the divine Krishna or God with Argin, who's 640 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,439 Speaker 1: an archer who has lost all self belief and self 641 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 1: esteem because he's had to fight his family. 642 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,439 Speaker 2: He's an archer. Yes, you know, sin means to miss 643 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 2: the target. Oh yeah, it's a it's an archery term. 644 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 2: And and and that notion of sin has that archery 645 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 2: connection in multiple different languages. And so it's the same 646 00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,160 Speaker 2: theme that you're describing. And the reason for that is 647 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: an archer hits the target right, So to hit the 648 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,759 Speaker 2: target accurately is to pursue the divine most appropriately. So 649 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 2: there's a metaphysics of archery. So that's definitely not a 650 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 2: that's not that's a good example of how there's that's right. 651 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 2: There's no mistake in that, right, there's no mistake in 652 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,439 Speaker 2: that you want to hit the target dead center. Absolutely. Yeah. 653 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: And in the beginning of the text, his bo is 654 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 1: slipping from his hands because he's he's feeling sweaty, he's 655 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: feeling nervous, he's feeling anxiety. Right, and therefore he turns 656 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,280 Speaker 1: to God for instruction and guidance. 657 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 2: Okay, So so okay, So there's a there's a meaning 658 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:57,600 Speaker 2: there too. So psychologists have demonstrated convincingly, mostly statistically that 659 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: there's no difference between being self conscious and being miserable, right, 660 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 2: They're so tightly associated. So, for example, in the Big Five, 661 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 2: in one of the classic Big five personality descriptive processes tests, 662 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 2: self consciousness is a facet of neuroticism. So it's actually 663 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: a sub element of suffering. Okay, so what does that mean. 664 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,240 Speaker 2: It means that if you're focused on your narrow self 665 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: what you want now, you're going to become both aimless 666 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 2: and anxious. And that's technically the case. And so you 667 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 2: might say, well, then what's the medication for that? And 668 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:42,879 Speaker 2: the medication isn't exactly to stop thinking about yourself, because well, 669 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 2: then what do you think about and exactly how do 670 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 2: you continue to maintain your care for yourself. The medication 671 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,600 Speaker 2: to that is to aim higher, for example, in our conversation, 672 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,960 Speaker 2: and you're obviously good at this, because your podcast wouldn't work. 673 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 2: You can't sit in a conversation like this and do 674 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,400 Speaker 2: nothing but aim at the enhancement of your own status, 675 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 2: let's say, in the eyes of your audience, or at 676 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 2: the expense of your guest. First of all, if you 677 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 2: do that, you won't have guests for long, and their 678 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,840 Speaker 2: quality will disintegrate, but also people will see through you 679 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 2: eventually and see you as self serving. If, by contrast, 680 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,160 Speaker 2: you aim the conversation at the expansion, let's say, of 681 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,960 Speaker 2: your own understanding and wisdom, then it's not about you. 682 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 2: It's about the dynamic of the conversation, and you can 683 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,120 Speaker 2: bring everybody along for the ride. But one of the 684 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,840 Speaker 2: benefits of that is you won't be self conscious, so 685 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,520 Speaker 2: your hands won't sweat, you won't miss your grip on 686 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: the bow, you won't aim wrong. 687 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:46,960 Speaker 1: I guess it comes back down to in the same 688 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,920 Speaker 1: way that you talked about the call to adventure almost 689 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: feeling like the first step, at least from what I 690 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: observed from what you were sharing. Maybe there are a 691 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: lot of people listening today who may feel Jordan Jay, 692 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: I've never had a call to adventure like I've missed it. 693 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,759 Speaker 1: I haven't seen it. Even if it's there, I don't 694 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: know where it is in my life. And that's why 695 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: my life feels meaningless. I feel lost. I've v stopped. 696 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I just don't see it. That's well, that's 697 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 2: and see is the right metaphor there. So the ancient Egyptians, 698 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 2: one of their God's Horus was the god of the 699 00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,320 Speaker 2: open eye, and the Mesopotamian god Marduk, who is a 700 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 2: savior figure whom the emperor should model himself after, was 701 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:30,919 Speaker 2: also he had eyes all the way around his head, 702 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,520 Speaker 2: so he could see. That's not the same as thinking. 703 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,320 Speaker 2: So to have an open eye is to attend, and 704 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 2: so you might say, well, if you've missed your adventure, 705 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,160 Speaker 2: Carl Jung said, modern man doesn't see God because he 706 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,160 Speaker 2: doesn't look low enough, which is a very interesting way 707 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,200 Speaker 2: of conceptualizing. It's like one of the things I try 708 00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 2: to do in this new technology we're developing with essay, 709 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 2: but also as a theme in We Who Wrestle with 710 00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,719 Speaker 2: God is to point out that you can learn to 711 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 2: wor So, for example, when I was dealing with depressed 712 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,320 Speaker 2: people in my clinical practice, and this is a pretty 713 00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,440 Speaker 2: standard behavioral approach, is one of the things you do 714 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,759 Speaker 2: with depressed people is you have them track their mood, 715 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 2: say maybe every hour during the day, because a depressed 716 00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,919 Speaker 2: person will assume that they're very unhappy and that that's 717 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 2: always there. But if you get them to track it, 718 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 2: what you find is they may be comparatively unhappy, but 719 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 2: there is variation. So there'll be times when they're much 720 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,280 Speaker 2: more miserable than usual, but also times when they're less miserable, 721 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,440 Speaker 2: and they may not even really know when those times 722 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 2: are without tracking it. So one of the things typically 723 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 2: is depressed people will isolate themselves because they think they 724 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 2: don't want to see anyone. But if you have them 725 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 2: track their emotions, you find that when they're with other people, 726 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 2: they're almost invariably less depressed. Okay, so imagine now I 727 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,279 Speaker 2: had you make a map of your emotions across a week, 728 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,279 Speaker 2: and we associated the emotions with what you were doing. 729 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 2: What we'd find is some of the things you were 730 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,000 Speaker 2: doing were making you much more depressed and some of 731 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,239 Speaker 2: the things less. And so then your goal. So the 732 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 2: first goal is see that, attend to that as if 733 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,759 Speaker 2: you're ignorant even with regards to your own nature. And 734 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 2: then the next thing would be, well, how about you 735 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 2: do a little bit more of the things that are 736 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 2: positive and a little bit less of the things that 737 00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 2: are negative. Right, and then we will remap that and 738 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 2: see if you've moved your average mood, you know, up 739 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 2: the distribution. And so this is what they call the 740 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 2: beginner's mind, at least in part in Buddhism, you want 741 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 2: to look at the situation, which might be your own 742 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,919 Speaker 2: situation as if you don't know yourself, it's like, okay, 743 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 2: well what am I interested in? People are often loath 744 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:43,560 Speaker 2: to even ask that question because they may find, for example, 745 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 2: that the thing that compels them forward isn't the thing 746 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 2: their father, mother wanted them to do. That's a very 747 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,880 Speaker 2: common familial story. You know, you might be shocked at 748 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,120 Speaker 2: who you are. It's highly probable, just like you're shocked 749 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 2: when you start to get to know someone else. It's 750 00:46:57,680 --> 00:46:59,640 Speaker 2: the same as going to apply to you. And the 751 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 2: rule there is something like watch, don't assume, right, don't 752 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:08,960 Speaker 2: put your presuppositions before the realities of your experience, all right, 753 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,479 Speaker 2: So he had to watch and so and if you watch, 754 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 2: you see you can you can rectify your aim right, right. 755 00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,680 Speaker 2: And so that's the difference between attention and thought. You know, 756 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 2: Luciferian intelligences worship their own presuppositions. Someone who's act of 757 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 2: and attentive watches they're alert. Meditation can foster that, right 758 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,840 Speaker 2: because it teaches you to be present and awake. And 759 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,760 Speaker 2: so I would say to people who haven't found their calling, 760 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 2: is that they're not noticing it in its micro manifestations. 761 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 2: You know, it's not going to necessarily announce itself like 762 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 2: Gandalf announced himself to the Hobbit. It's going to be 763 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 2: subtle things bother you. That's part of your adventure. Like 764 00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 2: there's going to be certain things that grip you and 765 00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 2: disturb you, and those are the problems that you're destined 766 00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,280 Speaker 2: to have to contend with. And you might be annoyed 767 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,560 Speaker 2: about that because you think, I don't want to have 768 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:12,880 Speaker 2: any problems. It's like, no, you actually probably want to 769 00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 2: have some serious problems that you can contend with that 770 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 2: are going to occupy you some responsibilities. And then there'll 771 00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 2: be the things that clearly motivate your movement forward. And 772 00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,080 Speaker 2: it's very good to start to understand what those are, 773 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,200 Speaker 2: to understand that that's how it works first, but then 774 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 2: also to understand them in more detail you can understand. 775 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 2: You can start to come to understand that by understanding 776 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,359 Speaker 2: your own temperament. So for example, if you're high in neuroticism, 777 00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,600 Speaker 2: you're going to be more concerned with safety and security. 778 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,040 Speaker 2: If you're agreeable, you're going to be relationship focused. If 779 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,239 Speaker 2: you're disagreeable, you're going to be competitive. If you're conscientious, 780 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: you're going to be interested in order and productivity. If 781 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 2: you're open, you're going to be interested in aesthetics and 782 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 2: ideas well. Right there, you've got a bit of a 783 00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,480 Speaker 2: map of the territory of calling and call conscience that 784 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 2: you're going to occupy. And so you have a nature, 785 00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 2: you know, and it's given to you, and it manifests 786 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,840 Speaker 2: itself in what interests you and what bothers you and 787 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 2: the biblical insistence at least in part. And this is 788 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 2: common I think too sophisticated religious systems of thought worldwide, 789 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,960 Speaker 2: is that there's an autonomy in what calls you and 790 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 2: what calls to your conscience. Right you have a relationship 791 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,080 Speaker 2: with your conscience. You have a relationship with what interests you. 792 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 2: It's not exactly under your control. It's something that can 793 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:40,000 Speaker 2: guide you and that you can follow. And that's portrayed 794 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 2: in these well in the story of Abraham, for example, 795 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 2: as God is the call to adventure. It's an extremely 796 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 2: interesting conceptualization, you know, and you see that implicitly in 797 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 2: quest stories like The Lord of the Rings of the Hobbit. 798 00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 2: You know, you have this ordinary guy who's protected. That 799 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:59,600 Speaker 2: would be the Hobbit in the first book Book of 800 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 2: Tolkien series, or even Harry Potter, who unbeknownst to him 801 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 2: is magical and has ordinary parents. Right, So there's this 802 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 2: call out of ordinariness, and the voice of that call 803 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,120 Speaker 2: is associated with as definition, with the divine. That's not 804 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 2: a superstitious conceptualization, and it's not something like an abdication 805 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,040 Speaker 2: of responsibility in favor of superstition. You know, it's a 806 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,880 Speaker 2: terrifying idea. It's also predicated to some degree on the 807 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:34,120 Speaker 2: idea that the purpose of life isn't something like secure comfort. 808 00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,319 Speaker 2: That's partly why people make so much trouble. So we're 809 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 2: not wired for infantile secure comfort. And if we don't 810 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,400 Speaker 2: have a real adventure, we'll find a false one and 811 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,680 Speaker 2: we'll cause a lot of trouble in that false adventure. 812 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,839 Speaker 2: A lot. Alcoholism that's a false adventure. Drug abuse that's 813 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:57,759 Speaker 2: a false adventure. You know, Sequential parasitical love affairs, that's 814 00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 2: a false adventure, political activist of a destructive sort. 815 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: The false adventure seems to be so alluring and intoxicating 816 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: in so many ways, and naturally, in the case that 817 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,160 Speaker 1: you're sharing distracting as well. How does one avoid the 818 00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: allurements of a false adventure while they're still pursuing that's a. 819 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,319 Speaker 2: Very good that's a very good question. Well, I think 820 00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:25,080 Speaker 2: conscience is a big part of that, you know, because 821 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,560 Speaker 2: it's very frequent that people will be visited by their 822 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,120 Speaker 2: conscience when they do something that's hedonistically valuable in the 823 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 2: short term, but then they think, oh, you know, I 824 00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,640 Speaker 2: shouldn't have done that. It's like, well, why shouldn't have 825 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:41,239 Speaker 2: you done that? Well, I cheated on my girlfriend? All right, 826 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,919 Speaker 2: well you got to cheat. There's the benefit. What's the downfall? Well, 827 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 2: I can't trust myself. I'm a liar. She can't trust me. Okay, 828 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 2: So what's the problem with that? You want to be alone, 829 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,359 Speaker 2: you want to be a parasitical psychopath, Like, what's your 830 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,960 Speaker 2: goal here? And so the problem, part of the problem 831 00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 2: with just call, let's say, is it can become short 832 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:06,400 Speaker 2: term and it can to entice you into false microadventures 833 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,960 Speaker 2: that don't propagate well across time and that disturb other people. 834 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,239 Speaker 2: You know, you said something when we were talking just 835 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,360 Speaker 2: before the interview started about because I was asking you 836 00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 2: what you thought you might be doing right with regard 837 00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,560 Speaker 2: to your podcast, say that woul account for its popularity 838 00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:25,000 Speaker 2: and you said, well, you're in it for the long run. Well, 839 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,719 Speaker 2: a fundamental part of cortical maturation from a biological perspective 840 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,040 Speaker 2: is that you start to see things in the long run, 841 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,680 Speaker 2: and then you don't do things in the short term 842 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 2: that are exciting and even adventurous that violate what the 843 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:45,560 Speaker 2: propagation of the adventure across time, you know, And you 844 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,800 Speaker 2: can envision it this way socially. If you and I 845 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 2: have an honest conversation, okay, imagine that you have a 846 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,760 Speaker 2: guest who uses your podcast in a manipulative way. Okay, 847 00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 2: they could gain some short term advantage putting you down, 848 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:05,120 Speaker 2: let's say, playing a power game, using the podcast as 849 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 2: a means to enhance their economic standing or their social standing. Well, 850 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:14,920 Speaker 2: what's the problem with that, Well, they're not going to 851 00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,480 Speaker 2: get invited back. While you do that twenty times, you're 852 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,640 Speaker 2: done right, Okay. So one of the ways of thinking 853 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,560 Speaker 2: about this, if you're trying to understand what constitutes morality technically, 854 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:31,360 Speaker 2: is that the moral pathway if I'm interacting with you morally, 855 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:37,120 Speaker 2: assuming you're treating yourself properly, our interactions are going to 856 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,880 Speaker 2: have to be of the kind that you want to 857 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:42,600 Speaker 2: voluntarily repeat. That's what you have with a friend, and 858 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,480 Speaker 2: there's a pattern to that obviously, a pattern of reciprocity, 859 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,720 Speaker 2: a pattern of mutual aid, unless it's a pathological friendship, 860 00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 2: in which case it's likely to collapse anyways. But that's 861 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:57,040 Speaker 2: a constraint. Repeatability. Voluntary repeatability across time is a real constraint, 862 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 2: and it's something like the future because it's across time, 863 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,240 Speaker 2: but it's also something like the constraint on your actions 864 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 2: by the necessity for you to be embedded in a 865 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,400 Speaker 2: voluntary social framework, right, And that's a huge advantage, you know, 866 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,200 Speaker 2: Like one of the things you can think about. For example, 867 00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 2: there's this game that economists play behavior economists. So this 868 00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,560 Speaker 2: is how the game works. You pick two people and 869 00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 2: you say to one of them, I'm going to give 870 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,560 Speaker 2: you one hundred dollars and you have to split it 871 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:29,040 Speaker 2: with this person. If they accept the offer, then you 872 00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,960 Speaker 2: get the hundred and you pay them. But if they 873 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,399 Speaker 2: refuse the offer, neither of you get anything. So that's 874 00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,400 Speaker 2: the game. Now, if you play that across cultures, what 875 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:42,279 Speaker 2: you find is that regardless of socioeconomic status, people offer 876 00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:47,719 Speaker 2: fifty percent. Okay, now this violates the tenets of classical economics, 877 00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:53,160 Speaker 2: which views people as self maximizers, because if I'm only 878 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,960 Speaker 2: going to play a game with you once, I should 879 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 2: take ninety nine dollars and give you one, and you 880 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 2: should take one, because what do you want zero or 881 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,480 Speaker 2: do you want one? But that isn't what people do. 882 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,160 Speaker 2: They split it fifty to fifty. Now then you might 883 00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:11,479 Speaker 2: ask why, well, you don't play one off games with people. 884 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,120 Speaker 2: So imagine you're doing this publicly. Okay, Now everyone watches 885 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:19,279 Speaker 2: you and they see that you you're a fair player, Well, 886 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:20,799 Speaker 2: then they're going to play with you if they get 887 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,880 Speaker 2: an opportunity. You could even say, I don't know if 888 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 2: this has ever been tested, but you could even say, 889 00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,000 Speaker 2: well maybe you do a sixty forty split and you 890 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:33,719 Speaker 2: offer the person that's playing slightly more than you get. Well, 891 00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,279 Speaker 2: you lose in that game. But if you get a reputation, 892 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,440 Speaker 2: that's part of that abrahamic adventure. If you get a 893 00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:47,200 Speaker 2: reputation for bending over backwards to be reciprocal, people are 894 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:48,800 Speaker 2: going to line up to play with you. And so 895 00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,080 Speaker 2: that's why you try to teach your children to be 896 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 2: good sports because you know, you say to them, it 897 00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,759 Speaker 2: doesn't matter whether you win or lose. It matters how 898 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 2: you play the game, and the kids thinks, what the 899 00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,839 Speaker 2: hell do you mean? Of course it matters if I win. 900 00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 2: You know, parents are usually not sophisticated enough to pursue 901 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:10,960 Speaker 2: that philosophically. But the right answer is what good is 902 00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:14,640 Speaker 2: they're winning one game when you never get invited to 903 00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:17,239 Speaker 2: play again. It's much better to be invited to play 904 00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,239 Speaker 2: one hundred games. And that means you're going to have 905 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,600 Speaker 2: to be the sort of person that other people are 906 00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:27,040 Speaker 2: lining up to play with. And that's the basis. That's 907 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,360 Speaker 2: part of the basis of a genuine ethic. And I 908 00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 2: think raise to a raised to the philosophical level, you 909 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 2: get something like a transcendent ethic out of that. It's 910 00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:42,080 Speaker 2: biologically predicated, but it's a higher order. It's a higher 911 00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,359 Speaker 2: order and more mature ethic, and it's real, it's super real. 912 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. That reminds me of the kind of insidious traits 913 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,400 Speaker 1: that we also see presence. If you look at the 914 00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,840 Speaker 1: examples of the ones that you just gave of the Hobbit, 915 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,360 Speaker 1: like photo bag ins or you look at Harry Potter, 916 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:04,239 Speaker 1: both of them also experience the envy of their call 917 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,560 Speaker 1: to adventure. So there are others who envied their call 918 00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,800 Speaker 1: to adventure. And often you find that again, while we 919 00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: don't have all call to adventure, we may envy someone else's. 920 00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's also a very central observation, I would say. 921 00:57:18,680 --> 00:57:24,800 Speaker 2: So the first story in the Genesis, in the Old Testament, 922 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,440 Speaker 2: the first story about actual human beings that are in 923 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 2: history is the story of canaan Abel. Because Adam and 924 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 2: Eve or well, they're made directly by God. So the 925 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,800 Speaker 2: first two humans in history are canaan Abel. It's a 926 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,240 Speaker 2: story of resentment and envy, right, And it's exactly It's 927 00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:47,240 Speaker 2: exactly what you just laid out. Is that Able aims 928 00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:52,320 Speaker 2: up and makes the proper sacrifices, right say, in the 929 00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:57,440 Speaker 2: Abrahamic sense, and because of that, everything he does works 930 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 2: and makes second rate sacrifices and deceives himself and other 931 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:09,720 Speaker 2: people and God and fails, and instead of learning from 932 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,720 Speaker 2: his failure, he becomes bitter. He shakes his fist at 933 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:16,560 Speaker 2: God and complains about the structure of reality itself, and 934 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,800 Speaker 2: then he becomes murderous and kills his own ideal and 935 00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 2: then his descendants become genocidal, and then you have the flood. 936 00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 2: It's like, so that that's another of the consequences. Let's 937 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:33,200 Speaker 2: say a false of non existent adventure or false adventures. 938 00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,760 Speaker 2: Those who took the adventurous path become the targets of envy. 939 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,800 Speaker 2: There's destruction that's then aimed at them, and that can 940 00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 2: propagate so widely through a society that it does itself 941 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:49,160 Speaker 2: in and that's happened over and over in human history. Yeah, 942 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 2: it's really it's brutal, and it's so terrifying that that's 943 00:58:53,960 --> 00:58:57,000 Speaker 2: the you know, you could argue that that Cain versus 944 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:01,120 Speaker 2: Able narrative is in many ways the fundamental narrative of 945 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:05,280 Speaker 2: what would you say? It's the fundamental battle of the 946 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 2: most likely attitudes of each individual. Right, you can maintain 947 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,960 Speaker 2: faith and courage, you can make the proper sacrifices, you 948 00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:17,360 Speaker 2: can aim up. You can be a benefit to yourself 949 00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,120 Speaker 2: and others, or you can hold back what's best. You 950 00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:24,600 Speaker 2: can try to manipulate the system. You can degenerate into 951 00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,680 Speaker 2: bitterness and envy, and then look the hell out right, right, 952 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 2: and this is one paragraph that story, right, It's like 953 00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:38,240 Speaker 2: twelve lines long. It's a stunning miracle of compression. 954 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:42,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, how does one transform that? If one is experiencing 955 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,720 Speaker 1: envy of another's call to adventure or envy of another 956 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:52,040 Speaker 1: one's path or success or reward from God, the universe, 957 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,960 Speaker 1: wherever it's coming from, how does one transform, purify and 958 00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: rid themselves of that envy? 959 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,720 Speaker 2: What does one doing well? Are part of what has 960 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:08,200 Speaker 2: historically constituted religious practice is an answer to that question. 961 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:13,480 Speaker 2: So the first would be you could practice gratitude, you know, 962 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,640 Speaker 2: and you could make the case that if you're not 963 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,520 Speaker 2: screaming in agony because you're on fire right now, you 964 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:22,840 Speaker 2: have lots of things to be fortunate about. 965 01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:23,000 Speaker 1: You know. 966 01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,920 Speaker 2: And people who have passed through extremely harrowing experiences they 967 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,520 Speaker 2: often learn that it's like, oh, the sorts of things 968 01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 2: that I thought were terrible or are almost negligible, and 969 01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,440 Speaker 2: there's so many good things happening to me all the 970 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,440 Speaker 2: time around me that are invisible to me, maybe because 971 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 2: of my arrogance that I'm just blind to them. So 972 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,240 Speaker 2: the practice of gratitude, that's a standard religious exercise, I 973 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 2: would say, across the domains of felid religious systems. What 974 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,920 Speaker 2: else humility? So the thing about that one of the 975 01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 2: things that distinguishes Cain from Abel is that when Cain fails, 976 01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,600 Speaker 2: he thinks it's God's fault or society or other people, 977 01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 2: or it's externalized blame. When Able fails, he learns, And 978 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,960 Speaker 2: that's the proper sacrificial attitude, because you might so, for example, 979 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:12,240 Speaker 2: if you're a man and you're getting nowhere with women, 980 01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:16,400 Speaker 2: it's very easy for you to become extremely hostile to women, 981 01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:19,480 Speaker 2: which is not going to help you out much, generally speaking, 982 01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,280 Speaker 2: in the relationship market. And you can certainly understand why 983 01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:26,320 Speaker 2: that might be, because if you've had fifty encounters with 984 01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,120 Speaker 2: women you're attracted to, and every single one of them 985 01:01:29,560 --> 01:01:34,360 Speaker 2: resulted in maybe not only rejection, but contemptuous rejection, you 986 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:37,280 Speaker 2: can certainly understand why you might conclude from that that 987 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,560 Speaker 2: there's something seriously wrong with women. But you could flip 988 01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,600 Speaker 2: that and you could presume that by definition, if you're 989 01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:50,280 Speaker 2: failing in that regard, there's some changes that should be made, 990 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:55,360 Speaker 2: you know, and it really does depend on your initial 991 01:01:55,560 --> 01:01:59,120 Speaker 2: stance with regard to the situation. One of the things 992 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:02,720 Speaker 2: that comes very that comes through very clearly with regards 993 01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:06,720 Speaker 2: to the upward aiming Israelites. They're not all upward aiming. 994 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:08,960 Speaker 2: But the upward aiming ones in the Old Testament is 995 01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,320 Speaker 2: whenever a cataclysm visits them, they assume it's their fault. 996 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:16,160 Speaker 2: And that's a hell of a thing to take on 997 01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,040 Speaker 2: to yourself, right. It's if I'm failing, it's my fault. 998 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,360 Speaker 2: And you can certainly understand why that's difficult, because a 999 01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:26,440 Speaker 2: certain amount of misery seems to visit people arbitrarily. But 1000 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:31,040 Speaker 2: there's almost no failure, regardless of how arbitrary, that you 1001 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 2: can't learn from. And there isn't anything better that you 1002 01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:38,640 Speaker 2: can do with failure, no matter how unjust, than to 1003 01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,320 Speaker 2: learn from it. And so as a general attitude, how 1004 01:02:42,400 --> 01:02:49,560 Speaker 2: did I go wrong? Here? Is a hyper useful existential stance, right, 1005 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:54,200 Speaker 2: And it's also a bulwark against hopelessness, because you know, 1006 01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,240 Speaker 2: even if it was ninety five percent situational and five 1007 01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:02,560 Speaker 2: percent you, if you adjusted that five percent, maybe that'd 1008 01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 2: be enough so that the next time that situation arises, 1009 01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,680 Speaker 2: you'd come out on the positive side of it, you know. 1010 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:11,920 Speaker 2: And you're also not a torment to other people then, 1011 01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:18,040 Speaker 2: because your general question is how am I insufficient? And 1012 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,360 Speaker 2: that also gives you something to do, because man trying 1013 01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:23,880 Speaker 2: to rectify your own insufficiency. That's a that'll keep you 1014 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:25,760 Speaker 2: busy for the rest of your life. And that's a 1015 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,840 Speaker 2: good thing, right, That's a meaningful pursuit, and you will experience. 1016 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 1: It that way working on your own insufficiencies. 1017 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it's an inexhaustible source of possibility, right, because 1018 01:03:36,720 --> 01:03:40,280 Speaker 2: there's always you could be better at something than you are, 1019 01:03:40,720 --> 01:03:42,920 Speaker 2: no matter how good you are at something, and no 1020 01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:47,640 Speaker 2: matter how many dimensions you're doing that analysis in simultaneously. Right, 1021 01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:50,640 Speaker 2: it's like a horizon of opportunity in some In some ways, 1022 01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,520 Speaker 2: that's the flip side of it, your insufficiencies. The flip 1023 01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,560 Speaker 2: side of your insufficiencies are the opportunities that growth in 1024 01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,960 Speaker 2: those dimensions would represent. That's a good way of looking 1025 01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:03,520 Speaker 2: at the world. 1026 01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,080 Speaker 1: What's the insufficiency that lets us down the most? Is 1027 01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,400 Speaker 1: there one that stands above all all? 1028 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,600 Speaker 2: Pride? That's that's the classical answer from the Judeo Christian perspective. Anyways, 1029 01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,600 Speaker 2: pride and arrogance. You know, that would be something like 1030 01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:23,200 Speaker 2: the presumption that that you're that you're right and that 1031 01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,160 Speaker 2: and that you're above it all, that you're on top 1032 01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:30,520 Speaker 2: and so. And you could see that as a well. 1033 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,480 Speaker 2: First of all, it's something very annoying to other people. 1034 01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,440 Speaker 2: So that's a problem given that you have to put 1035 01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,440 Speaker 2: up with them. And it's also an impediment to learning, 1036 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,720 Speaker 2: right because to be open to learning does mean, at 1037 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:46,080 Speaker 2: least to some degree, always asking well, what am I 1038 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:47,680 Speaker 2: doing wrong? What do I have to give up, what 1039 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:49,280 Speaker 2: do I have to let go of, what do I 1040 01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:54,600 Speaker 2: have to transform? That could be very painful. But so pride, 1041 01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:02,040 Speaker 2: that's one that's that's a major one. He hedonism, that's 1042 01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:04,960 Speaker 2: a problem, and that's a kind of immaturity. So that's 1043 01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:09,840 Speaker 2: that desire for immediate gratification at the expense of other people, 1044 01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,600 Speaker 2: at the expense of you in the long run, right, 1045 01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:16,720 Speaker 2: so at the expense of the general future. And so 1046 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 2: that's a very difficult thing to overcome. I mean, a 1047 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,480 Speaker 2: lot of what you do when you're socializing children is 1048 01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:28,040 Speaker 2: you're trying to encourage them to become capable of integrating 1049 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,880 Speaker 2: their various hedonistic desires so they don't conflict with one another, 1050 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,280 Speaker 2: so that they can be they can find their gratification 1051 01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:40,120 Speaker 2: in the long run in a manner that's commensurate with 1052 01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:43,439 Speaker 2: the needs and wants of other people. And it takes 1053 01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,640 Speaker 2: twenty years to socialize a child to become a full 1054 01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,160 Speaker 2: fledged adult. And it's not like the process ends there. 1055 01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:54,880 Speaker 2: It's very complicated process of integration and self regulation. And 1056 01:05:55,000 --> 01:06:00,760 Speaker 2: it is it is upward? And why why is it better? Well, 1057 01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:07,480 Speaker 2: even if the goal is gratification, if one strategy allows 1058 01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:13,240 Speaker 2: twenty repetitions of gratification and the other strategy offers one 1059 01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:18,080 Speaker 2: gratification followed by regret and catastrophic failure, it seems pretty obvious, 1060 01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:21,200 Speaker 2: even by the standards of gratification, that the first strategy 1061 01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,880 Speaker 2: is better than the second. Yeah, right, right, right, right, 1062 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,200 Speaker 2: So the iteration element of it is crucial. Now, is 1063 01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:32,640 Speaker 2: this a long term playable game? Better? Is this the 1064 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,520 Speaker 2: kind of long term, playable, sustainable game that I would 1065 01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,440 Speaker 2: like to engage in voluntarily and maybe bring others aboard 1066 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:45,280 Speaker 2: equally voluntarily. That's a that's a good ethical question. It's 1067 01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,479 Speaker 2: also extremely practically valuable. You know, we were talking before 1068 01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:52,440 Speaker 2: this began about theness about the utility that you found 1069 01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,600 Speaker 2: in putting together around you a very functional team. Well, 1070 01:06:56,160 --> 01:07:00,520 Speaker 2: a functional team is composed of people playing this game 1071 01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:06,000 Speaker 2: and all doing it fuleheartedly and voluntarily. Yeah, Well, so 1072 01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:11,720 Speaker 2: that's an optimal solution. Even if even if the goal is, say, 1073 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:18,200 Speaker 2: the maximization of your success, your success success that comes 1074 01:07:18,240 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 2: at the expense of other people, that's not that means 1075 01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:27,600 Speaker 2: that your definition of success is thoroughly flawed. That's all 1076 01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:30,840 Speaker 2: it means. That's especially true if the world isn't a 1077 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,040 Speaker 2: zero sum game, and I don't see any evidence that 1078 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:37,040 Speaker 2: it is. There's no reason that your victory unless you're 1079 01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:41,440 Speaker 2: envious and spiteful, sadistic, even there's absolutely no reason that 1080 01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,960 Speaker 2: your victory has to come at the expense of someone else. 1081 01:07:45,840 --> 01:07:47,960 Speaker 1: I feel often, going back to your point on pride, 1082 01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:54,680 Speaker 1: I feel often our views of how pride shows its 1083 01:07:54,760 --> 01:07:58,400 Speaker 1: face quite superficial, in that we think of things like 1084 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,640 Speaker 1: ego and pride as bravado and arrogance and showing off, 1085 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:09,720 Speaker 1: and those are quite immature, superficial. They're true, but there 1086 01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:12,800 Speaker 1: you get what I'm saying. They're incomplete aspects, and I 1087 01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:17,520 Speaker 1: think today in the world we see far more subdued, nuanced, 1088 01:08:17,640 --> 01:08:20,519 Speaker 1: hidden ways of how pride shows up in all of 1089 01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:24,320 Speaker 1: us and around us, one of which you pointed out earlier, 1090 01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:26,960 Speaker 1: which was like I'm right, you're wrong, and this can 1091 01:08:27,000 --> 01:08:30,200 Speaker 1: show up on a daily basis, whether it's a comment section, 1092 01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,720 Speaker 1: a chat rumor, and an online place, whatever it may be, 1093 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:38,640 Speaker 1: that there's a feeling that ego rules us, not in 1094 01:08:38,760 --> 01:08:41,760 Speaker 1: the I'm the boss and you're lower down, but in 1095 01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:44,560 Speaker 1: I'm right and you're wrong, and my way is the 1096 01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:49,439 Speaker 1: best way, and my political party, my god, whatever it 1097 01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,040 Speaker 1: may be, is better than Yeah. 1098 01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:54,320 Speaker 2: Well, some of that is the attempt to obtain status, 1099 01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,920 Speaker 2: and sometimes that's predicated on the erroneous assumption that if 1100 01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,360 Speaker 2: you defeat someone, let's say, in an argument, you're right. Now. 1101 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,000 Speaker 2: There's a certain amount of truth in that, because you 1102 01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:10,920 Speaker 2: can evaluate ideas in the ideational space, but you can 1103 01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:16,800 Speaker 2: be intelligent and unwise and defeat someone wise and less 1104 01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,880 Speaker 2: articulate in an argument and still be profoundly wrong. What 1105 01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:22,920 Speaker 2: you should be trying to do, and this is especially 1106 01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:25,400 Speaker 2: true in the confines, let's say of a marital relationship, 1107 01:09:25,560 --> 01:09:29,560 Speaker 2: is you should be trying to listen. It's like, and 1108 01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:32,360 Speaker 2: maybe you're trying to help your partner formulate their argument 1109 01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,600 Speaker 2: more accurately so that you both can get to the 1110 01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:38,760 Speaker 2: root of the problem and the cheap way. Oh, it's 1111 01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:41,080 Speaker 2: very useful. It's like, well, you might have a point, 1112 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:43,760 Speaker 2: you know, I mean this is actually one of the 1113 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 2: things that can help men in their understanding of women. 1114 01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:50,080 Speaker 2: So women on average are more sensitive to negative emotion, 1115 01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:52,120 Speaker 2: so you could think of them as having a lower 1116 01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:55,880 Speaker 2: threshold for alarm. Okay, Now, what that implies is that 1117 01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:59,160 Speaker 2: there'll be times when the alarm bell goes off when 1118 01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:01,760 Speaker 2: it doesn't have to, but there'll be other times when 1119 01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,840 Speaker 2: the alarm bell is going off to signify something that 1120 01:10:06,280 --> 01:10:09,920 Speaker 2: is barely detectable. But is there, okay. So often what 1121 01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:12,960 Speaker 2: women find frustrating and speaking to men is the men. 1122 01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,559 Speaker 2: They'll start, the women will start to lay out the problem, 1123 01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:19,240 Speaker 2: and the men will offer a solution, and the men think, well, 1124 01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:22,519 Speaker 2: don't you want a solution, And the women, who often 1125 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:27,840 Speaker 2: can't articulate this, think, well, yeah, but will neither of 1126 01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:31,240 Speaker 2: us know what the problem is yet? And so the 1127 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:35,519 Speaker 2: initial stages in much coupled communication are the woman bringing 1128 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 2: up a problem but not knowing what it is, and 1129 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:44,600 Speaker 2: so making all sorts of wandering attempts to specify the 1130 01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:49,080 Speaker 2: problem and hoping even implicitly, that she'll have enough space, 1131 01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:54,640 Speaker 2: enough scaffolding so that that investigative process can come to 1132 01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,840 Speaker 2: focus on the actual problem. Well, once you've got the 1133 01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,880 Speaker 2: problem identified, it's a lot simpler to put forward a 1134 01:11:02,920 --> 01:11:06,559 Speaker 2: solution and implement it. But that's the case for well, 1135 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,160 Speaker 2: that's the case often for yourself. If you're upset or 1136 01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:13,120 Speaker 2: any dialogue, it's like you want to listen long enough 1137 01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:15,960 Speaker 2: so you actually understand what the problem is. And that's 1138 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,640 Speaker 2: a great benefit to you, because now the cost is, 1139 01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:25,000 Speaker 2: if you're wrong, you're going to have to give something up, 1140 01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:29,440 Speaker 2: and that's annoying and difficult and complicated and can be humiliating. 1141 01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:32,240 Speaker 2: And then you might say, well, why bother. An answer 1142 01:11:32,280 --> 01:11:34,439 Speaker 2: to that's straightforward. It's so you don't make the same 1143 01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:39,120 Speaker 2: stupid mistake again, and that comes at a cost. This 1144 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:45,040 Speaker 2: is why there's this dawning insistence, arising insistence in our 1145 01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,920 Speaker 2: culture that you shouldn't be able to be offensive in 1146 01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,000 Speaker 2: your speech, which sort of means you shouldn't be allowed 1147 01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:57,599 Speaker 2: to upset anyone emotionally. Well, if you're speaking about something 1148 01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:03,439 Speaker 2: that's foundational, pointing out an error, that's going to be 1149 01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 2: upsetting to the person you're talking to, because it means 1150 01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:08,040 Speaker 2: they're going to have to do a fair bit of 1151 01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 2: cognitive retooling. They're going to have to undergo a partial 1152 01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:16,760 Speaker 2: death and rebirth. Well, that can be terribly painful, but 1153 01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:22,759 Speaker 2: it's better than actually failing cataclysmically repeatedly in the world, 1154 01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:26,679 Speaker 2: you know. So we substitute death in argumentation for death 1155 01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,360 Speaker 2: in actuality. That doesn't mean that death in argumentation is nothing. 1156 01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:34,679 Speaker 2: And because there is an emotional burden and an effort 1157 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:36,720 Speaker 2: that has to be made, people are resistant to that. 1158 01:12:37,040 --> 01:12:39,720 Speaker 2: I'd rather show that I'm right so that you have 1159 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,120 Speaker 2: to change fair enough. But you might be the one 1160 01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,519 Speaker 2: with the problem. I mean, that's a terrible thing to contemplate. 1161 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,800 Speaker 1: But I find that. Don't you think there's a need 1162 01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:57,720 Speaker 1: for both the delivery and the receptor to upgrade themselves, 1163 01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,599 Speaker 1: because there's a sense that even the deliverer of a message, 1164 01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:04,639 Speaker 1: no matter how true it may be, if they're able 1165 01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:08,200 Speaker 1: to make it not more digestible than a I don't 1166 01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,320 Speaker 1: mean in a watered down way. I mean in a 1167 01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,360 Speaker 1: way that is not agitating but true, right impact. 1168 01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:18,080 Speaker 2: Well, definitely. I mean you don't want to wield the 1169 01:13:18,240 --> 01:13:20,960 Speaker 2: truth as a weapon more than necessary, you know. And 1170 01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,320 Speaker 2: people might say, well, I hurt your feelings, but I 1171 01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:25,720 Speaker 2: was only telling you the truth. It's like you might 1172 01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,080 Speaker 2: have been telling the truth at one level of analysis 1173 01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,040 Speaker 2: and lying like mad at another because maybe your motivation 1174 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,320 Speaker 2: was to hurt and you figured out how to use 1175 01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:35,920 Speaker 2: something that was normally true as your weapon. And so 1176 01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:40,200 Speaker 2: at the very narrow level of analysis, semantically what you 1177 01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,639 Speaker 2: said was true. But in the broader context, now you're 1178 01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:47,320 Speaker 2: just this sadist. And so there are technical approaches that 1179 01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,439 Speaker 2: to some degree that are coded in the laws. So, 1180 01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:53,120 Speaker 2: for example, if you're defending yourself, you're entitled to use 1181 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,919 Speaker 2: something approximating minimal necessary force, and that's a good maxim 1182 01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 2: for communication. Know, you want to deliver a corrective message 1183 01:14:04,320 --> 01:14:09,000 Speaker 2: in the most constrained possible manner. There's ways of doing this. 1184 01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,280 Speaker 2: So for example, if you if you have an employee 1185 01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,400 Speaker 2: and they've made a mistake, you want to bring up 1186 01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:19,439 Speaker 2: the mistake primarily so it's not repeated. And so one 1187 01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:21,760 Speaker 2: of the ways of buffering that is to bring the 1188 01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:24,080 Speaker 2: person in and to say, look, here's a bunch of 1189 01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,559 Speaker 2: things you're doing right, and we don't have a global problem, 1190 01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,680 Speaker 2: but in this specific case, here's what you did, this 1191 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:35,880 Speaker 2: was the consequence, and this is what you could have 1192 01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:38,960 Speaker 2: done to do it differently. And then you close it 1193 01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:41,880 Speaker 2: by reiterating the fact that you know having said that, 1194 01:14:42,040 --> 01:14:45,080 Speaker 2: I have confidence, for example, that you'll rectify this error. 1195 01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:48,439 Speaker 2: And people make mistakes, and the real issue here is 1196 01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:51,200 Speaker 2: whether you take responsibility for it and rectify it, and 1197 01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:55,600 Speaker 2: then the person can learn without being demolished, without being demoralized. 1198 01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,760 Speaker 2: And that's also a very good thing to do to yourself. 1199 01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:00,799 Speaker 2: Like if you see that you you've made a mistake 1200 01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:03,680 Speaker 2: and you're guilty as hell and tearing yourself apart, you 1201 01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,479 Speaker 2: want to approach it with the presumption of innocence. It's like, 1202 01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,400 Speaker 2: don't assume you're any more terrible than you have to assume. Okay, 1203 01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:14,639 Speaker 2: then do the analysis and figure out what's the minimal 1204 01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:19,040 Speaker 2: transformation you can make that will suffice. This is also 1205 01:15:19,120 --> 01:15:22,120 Speaker 2: a good principle when you're arguing with maybe you're upset 1206 01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:25,400 Speaker 2: with your partner, your wife, or your husband. It's incumbent 1207 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:27,360 Speaker 2: on you to figure out what you want, Like what 1208 01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,320 Speaker 2: would satisfy you? Okay, so you have a problem with me. 1209 01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:37,240 Speaker 2: I didn't. I wasn't properly appreciative for the efforts you 1210 01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:41,240 Speaker 2: made when you were preparing dinner. I was dismissive of it. 1211 01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:45,960 Speaker 2: It's like, okay, what is it that you wish I 1212 01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,280 Speaker 2: would have said. The person might say, well, if you 1213 01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,120 Speaker 2: love me, you'd know that. It's like, yeah, but I'm stupid, 1214 01:15:51,960 --> 01:15:54,800 Speaker 2: so I need to know what words should have I 1215 01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:58,080 Speaker 2: used that would have encouraged your efforts in that regard, 1216 01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,840 Speaker 2: and then the person can tell you, and then you 1217 01:16:01,920 --> 01:16:04,600 Speaker 2: can say the words. And you have to understand that 1218 01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,760 Speaker 2: there's going to be a certain falseness about that the 1219 01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,160 Speaker 2: first time that it happens, but it's something you can 1220 01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,639 Speaker 2: get good at over time. You may have to teach 1221 01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:16,240 Speaker 2: your partner how to reward you properly, and there may 1222 01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,439 Speaker 2: be be pretty bad at it the first ten times, 1223 01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:20,439 Speaker 2: and that might be annoying to you and them and 1224 01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:25,920 Speaker 2: even false, but you can practice it and it's worth practicing. 1225 01:16:26,760 --> 01:16:29,840 Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, I read something similar to what you're saying 1226 01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:34,439 Speaker 1: in terms of how to give proper feedback, and it 1227 01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:37,439 Speaker 1: was in a book called The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle, 1228 01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,040 Speaker 1: and he talks about a three step method that the 1229 01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:42,960 Speaker 1: first thing you do is you share that we have 1230 01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:45,439 Speaker 1: high standards here because you don't want to live in 1231 01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,320 Speaker 1: a world of low standards. You don't want to drop 1232 01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,920 Speaker 1: your company's standards. Right, you're a mind. The person you're 1233 01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,639 Speaker 1: speaking to, we have high standards. Here, we have high goals. 1234 01:16:53,280 --> 01:16:54,680 Speaker 1: And the second thing you do is you say to 1235 01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,720 Speaker 1: that person and I believe you can get there. 1236 01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:57,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe it. 1237 01:16:58,040 --> 01:17:00,479 Speaker 1: I see it for you, because of course still at 1238 01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:01,240 Speaker 1: the company. 1239 01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,960 Speaker 2: Throwing some evidence in their direction would be useful in 1240 01:17:05,040 --> 01:17:06,880 Speaker 2: that here's some things you know that I remember that 1241 01:17:06,920 --> 01:17:07,760 Speaker 2: you really did well. 1242 01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:09,800 Speaker 1: Correct that showed me you can get And then the 1243 01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,360 Speaker 1: third is here are that what you were saying, here's 1244 01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:14,880 Speaker 1: that area, Here are the steps that you can take. 1245 01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,040 Speaker 1: Here was the consequence, here's a rectification. And I love 1246 01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:21,640 Speaker 1: that because we allow people to rise to high standards 1247 01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,559 Speaker 1: as opposed to hold them to them. And I think 1248 01:17:24,600 --> 01:17:28,040 Speaker 1: there's a difference between that in how society is functioning 1249 01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:31,640 Speaker 1: right now, where we want to hold people to certain standards, 1250 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:34,240 Speaker 1: but we're not willing to help them rise towards them. 1251 01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,719 Speaker 1: And it seems like God in this conversation with Abraham, 1252 01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:41,960 Speaker 1: is like encouraging Abraham to rise, not just pointing at 1253 01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:43,760 Speaker 1: a standard that'shu well. 1254 01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:47,080 Speaker 2: This is one of the things that you see repeated 1255 01:17:47,240 --> 01:17:50,720 Speaker 2: in the biblical stories is that this is why there's 1256 01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:54,360 Speaker 2: insistence in those stories that whatever the divine is, it's 1257 01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,679 Speaker 2: something that you actually enter into a relationship with because 1258 01:17:57,760 --> 01:18:02,439 Speaker 2: there is this element of let's say, tolerance for failure 1259 01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:06,520 Speaker 2: combined with encouragement. Right, It's not merely that what constitutes 1260 01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:10,720 Speaker 2: the divine is this unattainable, infinite standard against which you're 1261 01:18:10,720 --> 01:18:13,439 Speaker 2: always going to fall short. That's sort of that's what 1262 01:18:13,560 --> 01:18:17,240 Speaker 2: a tyrant does falsely. It's more like the spirit of 1263 01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:20,519 Speaker 2: encouragement that a good father would put into play with 1264 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,120 Speaker 2: his kids. You know, you want to set a standard 1265 01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:26,040 Speaker 2: that pulls the child upward towards further development, but you 1266 01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,719 Speaker 2: want to put it within the range of their grasp 1267 01:18:29,400 --> 01:18:34,040 Speaker 2: and so and you know, is does that characterize your 1268 01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:36,600 Speaker 2: interaction with the world. Well, I think it's fair to 1269 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:40,880 Speaker 2: say that it is, because you know, we can fail 1270 01:18:40,960 --> 01:18:44,760 Speaker 2: without dying, and we can improve, and so the notion 1271 01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:52,880 Speaker 2: that ideals can exist in concert with encouragement isn't an 1272 01:18:52,960 --> 01:18:58,080 Speaker 2: unreasonable proposition, and it is. I mean, I think part 1273 01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:01,519 Speaker 2: of the reason that God is represented, let's say, in 1274 01:19:01,560 --> 01:19:04,519 Speaker 2: the biblical text as a wise father, is because that 1275 01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:11,360 Speaker 2: element of the divine that's discriminating but encouraging is paramount. 1276 01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:13,320 Speaker 2: And that is what you want in a father, for sure. 1277 01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:16,519 Speaker 2: You want someone who says I think you're capable of 1278 01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:21,000 Speaker 2: being great. I really think that, and here's some evidence 1279 01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:23,560 Speaker 2: that you've provided that that might be the case. But 1280 01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:27,200 Speaker 2: given that I believe that you're capable of that, I'm 1281 01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:29,960 Speaker 2: not going to let you get away with any deviation 1282 01:19:30,120 --> 01:19:35,240 Speaker 2: from that. That would be finally counterproductive. That's not care, right, 1283 01:19:35,360 --> 01:19:39,240 Speaker 2: that's the devouring mother who says whatever you do is fine, dear. 1284 01:19:39,640 --> 01:19:44,920 Speaker 2: It's like, that's not love, right. That's actually the desire 1285 01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:47,439 Speaker 2: on the part of the person who's delivering that message 1286 01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:52,200 Speaker 2: to keep the person being communicated with in a continually 1287 01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:56,120 Speaker 2: infantile and dependent state. Right. So it's a weird thing 1288 01:19:56,320 --> 01:19:59,240 Speaker 2: because you need that discriminating judgment, which can be quite harsh. 1289 01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:02,600 Speaker 2: It's like, no, that up to standards there, buddy, But 1290 01:20:03,560 --> 01:20:07,400 Speaker 2: that failure isn't emblematic of your core self. Right. The 1291 01:20:07,560 --> 01:20:09,400 Speaker 2: part of you that I really want to communicate is 1292 01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:11,599 Speaker 2: with is the part that's saving up. That was sort 1293 01:20:11,640 --> 01:20:13,640 Speaker 2: of the agreement I had with my clients in my 1294 01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:16,680 Speaker 2: clinical practice, like I'm on the side of you that's 1295 01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 2: aiming up, and that's an interesting basis for a relationship. 1296 01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:22,360 Speaker 2: It's like, I'm not going to accept everything you do 1297 01:20:23,280 --> 01:20:26,080 Speaker 2: now that doesn't mean I'm going to arbitrary arbitrarily judge 1298 01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,719 Speaker 2: it or dispense with you in the case of failure. 1299 01:20:29,760 --> 01:20:31,479 Speaker 2: But our deal has got to be something like, we're 1300 01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:33,800 Speaker 2: trying to make things better, and so I'm going to 1301 01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:35,800 Speaker 2: be on the side of you that's trying to make 1302 01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:39,320 Speaker 2: things better and help you discriminate that part within you 1303 01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:42,280 Speaker 2: from the part that might be envious and aiming down 1304 01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:43,920 Speaker 2: and being destructive. 1305 01:20:44,400 --> 01:20:46,600 Speaker 1: What still gives you hope? Jordan, and all of this 1306 01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,280 Speaker 1: that we're discussing today, is there anything that makes you 1307 01:20:50,280 --> 01:20:50,680 Speaker 1: feel up? 1308 01:20:50,720 --> 01:20:52,840 Speaker 2: Oh? Well, there's lots of things to be hopeful for. 1309 01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 2: I mean, we're feeding twice as many people regularly as 1310 01:20:59,760 --> 01:21:03,479 Speaker 2: even the most wild optimists imagined in the late nineteen sixties. 1311 01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:07,320 Speaker 2: Absolute poverty is being restricted around the world at a 1312 01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:15,120 Speaker 2: rate that's miraculously inconceivable. I mean, before things destabilized to 1313 01:21:15,280 --> 01:21:18,880 Speaker 2: some degree over the last five years, the un projections 1314 01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:21,960 Speaker 2: was or that we could eradicate absolute poverty by twenty 1315 01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:27,800 Speaker 2: thirty five. That's I mean, that's a huge improvement. I mean, 1316 01:21:27,960 --> 01:21:33,839 Speaker 2: these communication technologies they enable well. With Peterson Academy, for example, 1317 01:21:34,560 --> 01:21:38,440 Speaker 2: we figure we can offer people a high quality university 1318 01:21:38,520 --> 01:21:46,640 Speaker 2: level education for under two thousand dollars and everywhere, So 1319 01:21:47,080 --> 01:21:50,439 Speaker 2: like that's a major improvement. I think that things are 1320 01:21:50,520 --> 01:21:53,439 Speaker 2: actually somewhat less polarized on the political side than they 1321 01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:57,080 Speaker 2: were two years ago. I mean, there's tendencies in both directions, 1322 01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:01,160 Speaker 2: but I see, I was just in Newzbekistan that was 1323 01:22:01,200 --> 01:22:04,640 Speaker 2: extremely interesting. I met a man there who's an industrialist. 1324 01:22:05,040 --> 01:22:11,479 Speaker 2: His enterprises comprised fifteen percent of Uzbekistan's GDP. He refurbished 1325 01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:17,960 Speaker 2: four hundred thousand square meters of post Soviet factory floor space, 1326 01:22:18,520 --> 01:22:23,719 Speaker 2: and they're manufacturing everything you can possibly imagine, marble tiles, 1327 01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:31,600 Speaker 2: building materials, fridges, microwaves, air conditioners, golf carts, hospitals, hotels, 1328 01:22:31,760 --> 01:22:38,160 Speaker 2: high rises. Uzbekistan under the Soviets was barely functional. Everyone 1329 01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:42,600 Speaker 2: was raising cotton. They drained Lake Bakal to irrigate the 1330 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:45,920 Speaker 2: cotton fields. That was the only industrial development they got 1331 01:22:45,960 --> 01:22:50,000 Speaker 2: themselves out of the out from underneath the boot of 1332 01:22:50,080 --> 01:22:55,760 Speaker 2: the Soviet totalitarians. And the society is becoming wealthy and 1333 01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,680 Speaker 2: opportunity rich at an insane level, and that's happening all 1334 01:22:58,720 --> 01:23:02,519 Speaker 2: over the world. I mean, endless numbers of reasons to 1335 01:23:02,640 --> 01:23:05,559 Speaker 2: assume that everybody could thrive. That's what people like Musk 1336 01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:11,120 Speaker 2: are trying to aim at. You know, however, imperfectly, I 1337 01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:13,519 Speaker 2: see no reason at all that the future couldn't be 1338 01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:18,200 Speaker 2: one of unlimited abundance. There's going to have to be 1339 01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,800 Speaker 2: a transformation and ethical orientation to go along with that, 1340 01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:27,280 Speaker 2: because there's no difference between the ability to generate genuine 1341 01:23:27,360 --> 01:23:30,360 Speaker 2: wealth and ethical conduct. Those are the same thing. That's 1342 01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,040 Speaker 2: the life more abundant that's promised by the divine in 1343 01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:36,800 Speaker 2: the in the Old Testament stories, for example, you have 1344 01:23:36,880 --> 01:23:39,960 Speaker 2: to conduct yourself honorably so that you can trust each other, 1345 01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:44,040 Speaker 2: so that you can cooperate to be productive, right right, 1346 01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:46,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm optimistic fundamentally. 1347 01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,400 Speaker 1: Do you believe that that is that going to be 1348 01:23:48,439 --> 01:23:51,479 Speaker 1: something you're teaching at the Pizzason Academy, that primary thing? That? 1349 01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:55,000 Speaker 2: Definitely? Yeah, definitely yeaheah Because to me, I agree with 1350 01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:55,519 Speaker 2: you that that. 1351 01:23:56,600 --> 01:24:00,400 Speaker 1: I always wondered how business school was across the world. 1352 01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:04,040 Speaker 1: College is how at universities there was no class on 1353 01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:07,439 Speaker 1: proper character. It just it amuses me that. 1354 01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:10,040 Speaker 2: Well, and there's no classes even on the relationship between 1355 01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:13,960 Speaker 2: character and economic progress. I read a great book once 1356 01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:16,720 Speaker 2: called the wealth and poverty of nations, and it was 1357 01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:20,320 Speaker 2: a study of really it's a study of the role 1358 01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:23,679 Speaker 2: that honesty and trust plays in the generation of wealth. 1359 01:24:23,920 --> 01:24:26,320 Speaker 2: Japan's a really good example of that. Japan has like 1360 01:24:26,439 --> 01:24:30,720 Speaker 2: no natural resources and it's an extremely wealthy country. Why well, 1361 01:24:30,720 --> 01:24:35,800 Speaker 2: it's a high trust society. No one steals, an envy 1362 01:24:35,960 --> 01:24:39,400 Speaker 2: is looked down upon, right, ambition is fostered, and so 1363 01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:42,400 Speaker 2: it's conscientious, hard work and maybe even to a fault 1364 01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:45,599 Speaker 2: in Japan, but it's a high trust society. In high 1365 01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:49,560 Speaker 2: trust societies, everybody can become rich. But it means that 1366 01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,320 Speaker 2: everybody has to conduct themselves ethically, and that is a 1367 01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:57,000 Speaker 2: precondition for anything approximating I hate to use the words 1368 01:24:57,080 --> 01:25:02,439 Speaker 2: sustainable but an iterable capitalism, right because people, the leftist 1369 01:25:02,479 --> 01:25:05,040 Speaker 2: critics in particular, like to think of capitalism as a 1370 01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:10,560 Speaker 2: rapacious enterprise. But that's well, first of all, compared to 1371 01:25:10,760 --> 01:25:16,160 Speaker 2: what you know, dynastic poverty, because that's generally the alternative, 1372 01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:23,080 Speaker 2: and it's not like that's not rapacious, and most enterprises 1373 01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:26,200 Speaker 2: that orient themselves too much to the short term fail. 1374 01:25:27,240 --> 01:25:32,719 Speaker 2: So it's important to teach people. We do this so badly, 1375 01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:35,640 Speaker 2: you know, I mean even the word capitalism isn't one 1376 01:25:35,680 --> 01:25:38,080 Speaker 2: that should be used because really what we're talking about 1377 01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:43,360 Speaker 2: is free exchange of goods and services. Who's opposed to that? 1378 01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:45,960 Speaker 2: You want to be able to have a different job, 1379 01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:48,479 Speaker 2: You want to have some choice? Do you want to 1380 01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:50,880 Speaker 2: actually be able to own the things you purchase? Do 1381 01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:52,400 Speaker 2: you want to be able to purchase things? Do you 1382 01:25:52,439 --> 01:25:54,760 Speaker 2: want to have a choice? Who says no to that? 1383 01:25:55,520 --> 01:25:59,599 Speaker 2: No one, but no one. Young people in particular aren't 1384 01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:04,160 Speaker 2: taught that. Well, that's the capitalism that you're criticizing. The 1385 01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:07,000 Speaker 2: fact you get to own something and move your labor 1386 01:26:07,120 --> 01:26:09,880 Speaker 2: voluntarily from one place to another. You're going to oppose that? 1387 01:26:10,040 --> 01:26:12,960 Speaker 2: Are you in favor of? What of top down authoritarian 1388 01:26:13,040 --> 01:26:17,640 Speaker 2: planning where everyone starves miserably? So, and you know, a 1389 01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:20,240 Speaker 2: lot of that's we've been removed from the world since 1390 01:26:20,320 --> 01:26:24,679 Speaker 2: the since the wall fell, and people are much richer 1391 01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:29,880 Speaker 2: than they've ever been, and not in an entirely pathological manner. 1392 01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:33,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, there's lots of reason to be optimistic. I 1393 01:26:33,320 --> 01:26:35,640 Speaker 2: actually think we're on the cusp of something like an 1394 01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:38,880 Speaker 2: ethical revolution, because I tried to outline in this in 1395 01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:42,400 Speaker 2: this new book, is that I think that we're at 1396 01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:47,240 Speaker 2: the point where are scientific discoveries and feels like cognitive 1397 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:51,640 Speaker 2: neuroscience and evolutionary biology can be seen to dovetail with 1398 01:26:51,880 --> 01:26:57,880 Speaker 2: our traditional understanding of high order ethics. That's partly the 1399 01:26:57,920 --> 01:26:59,840 Speaker 2: case I tried to make in this book, and it's 1400 01:27:00,000 --> 01:27:05,280 Speaker 2: certainly the ethos that saturates the course offerings in Peterson Academy. 1401 01:27:05,840 --> 01:27:09,440 Speaker 2: You know, we're trying to encourage people to take maximal responsibility, 1402 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:12,759 Speaker 2: to have an adventurous life, to pursue an ethical pathway, 1403 01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:16,880 Speaker 2: to tell the truth, and to educate themselves broadly and esthetically. 1404 01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:21,040 Speaker 2: And so far it seems to be working. You know, 1405 01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:24,000 Speaker 2: people are pleased with the I'm so excited about this. 1406 01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:26,479 Speaker 2: I mean, I got a hand to my daughter and 1407 01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:30,880 Speaker 2: her husband. They've done a bang up job of putting 1408 01:27:30,880 --> 01:27:36,519 Speaker 2: this together. The courses are really beautiful, they're very they're compelling, 1409 01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:41,439 Speaker 2: they're very well produced, and the technology works like a charm. 1410 01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:46,320 Speaker 2: And the social media network so far is behaving exactly 1411 01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:49,000 Speaker 2: how we hoped it would behave when we were feeling 1412 01:27:49,080 --> 01:27:53,200 Speaker 2: particularly optimistic and so and we now have the capital 1413 01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:54,960 Speaker 2: to put all the things that we wanted to build 1414 01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:59,360 Speaker 2: into the system into place. So translation into multiple languages 1415 01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:02,519 Speaker 2: that'll be on table very soon. A radical expansion of 1416 01:28:02,560 --> 01:28:05,639 Speaker 2: the curriculum. We're going to predicate it on I think 1417 01:28:05,760 --> 01:28:09,599 Speaker 2: something approximating the Chicago Great Books tradition. So we're imagining 1418 01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:13,920 Speaker 2: something like the selection of great books that would characterize 1419 01:28:13,920 --> 01:28:18,120 Speaker 2: a high quality education in the humanities one course, something 1420 01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:22,400 Speaker 2: like a minimum of one course per great book. I 1421 01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:24,280 Speaker 2: can't see any reason we can't do that. We have 1422 01:28:24,400 --> 01:28:26,920 Speaker 2: an excellent stable of professors, all of them want to 1423 01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:30,759 Speaker 2: continue working with us. I think that's true without exception 1424 01:28:30,960 --> 01:28:34,040 Speaker 2: so far. And I'm able to make contact with great 1425 01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:36,600 Speaker 2: lectures all the time and to keep discovering them, and 1426 01:28:36,760 --> 01:28:41,360 Speaker 2: so yeah, I've been tweeting out funny ads about being 1427 01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:44,560 Speaker 2: at the most progressive university in the world. Well, the 1428 01:28:44,600 --> 01:28:50,320 Speaker 2: progressives hope for universal education at something approximating zero cost. 1429 01:28:50,800 --> 01:28:55,360 Speaker 2: Well that's what we've got. It's open to anyone, and 1430 01:28:55,520 --> 01:29:00,240 Speaker 2: it's no one comes out with debt. So that's seems 1431 01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:01,280 Speaker 2: pretty progressive to me. 1432 01:29:01,640 --> 01:29:02,320 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. 1433 01:29:02,439 --> 01:29:06,040 Speaker 2: And I'm very excited about the translation possibilities because AI 1434 01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:08,840 Speaker 2: systems are getting pretty good at that. So we'll have 1435 01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:12,000 Speaker 2: our lectures be able to lecture in other languages using 1436 01:29:12,040 --> 01:29:15,320 Speaker 2: their own voice and modify the videos so that it 1437 01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:19,840 Speaker 2: appears that they're speaking that language. So God only knows 1438 01:29:19,880 --> 01:29:23,040 Speaker 2: how many languages we'll be able to translate our material into, 1439 01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:25,400 Speaker 2: you know, as the AI systems develop and it gets 1440 01:29:25,479 --> 01:29:30,240 Speaker 2: cheaper and cheaper. So yeah, exciting, it's exciting. And the 1441 01:29:30,439 --> 01:29:33,360 Speaker 2: essay app you know, that teaches people to write. It works, 1442 01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:35,760 Speaker 2: helps people figure out what they want to write about. 1443 01:29:36,280 --> 01:29:38,759 Speaker 2: It runs them through the process of generating their ideas, 1444 01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:41,080 Speaker 2: and then it teaches them how to edit and so, 1445 01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:43,880 Speaker 2: and there's no difference between doing that and teaching people 1446 01:29:43,920 --> 01:29:48,479 Speaker 2: to think. I'm so hopefully we can provide people with 1447 01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:51,800 Speaker 2: content and we can teach them the mechanics of thinking 1448 01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:55,720 Speaker 2: and writing. It's fantastic. Yeah, that's fun. Looks fun, and 1449 01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:56,840 Speaker 2: I think were able to do it. 1450 01:29:57,800 --> 01:29:58,760 Speaker 1: I mean, you're already doing it. 1451 01:29:58,960 --> 01:30:01,920 Speaker 2: So we've got thirty thousand students and the system seems 1452 01:30:01,960 --> 01:30:04,000 Speaker 2: to be working, so we've got proof of We've got 1453 01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:05,400 Speaker 2: good proof of concept. 1454 01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:09,240 Speaker 1: Now absolutely or congratulations Jordan. It's brilly honestly brilliant and 1455 01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:12,559 Speaker 1: can't wait to enroll myself? Are they doing that? Straight 1456 01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:12,960 Speaker 1: after this? 1457 01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:13,599 Speaker 2: Good? 1458 01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:16,600 Speaker 1: And Jordan. We end every on Purpose episode with a 1459 01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,640 Speaker 1: final five and these questions have to be answered in 1460 01:30:19,720 --> 01:30:21,120 Speaker 1: a one word to one sentence. 1461 01:30:21,160 --> 01:30:23,599 Speaker 2: Oh no, maximum, So how long. 1462 01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:26,960 Speaker 1: A sentence you you define it? You're teaching everyone how 1463 01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:31,000 Speaker 1: to write and think. I'll go with your definition. Question one, 1464 01:30:31,160 --> 01:30:34,160 Speaker 1: what is the best life advice you've ever heard or received? 1465 01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:36,439 Speaker 2: How the truth or at least don't lie? 1466 01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:39,960 Speaker 1: Number two? What is the worst advice you ever heard 1467 01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:45,720 Speaker 1: or received? It's all about you? Number three? How would 1468 01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:47,080 Speaker 1: you define your current purpose? 1469 01:30:49,439 --> 01:30:52,000 Speaker 2: I think I'm doing in my way the same thing, 1470 01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:54,720 Speaker 2: the same thing that Elon Musk said that he was 1471 01:30:54,760 --> 01:30:59,200 Speaker 2: doing when I interviewed him, which is to continue exploring 1472 01:30:59,280 --> 01:31:03,479 Speaker 2: the limits of possibility. That's an adventure, right, to explore 1473 01:31:03,520 --> 01:31:06,320 Speaker 2: the limits of possibility. A lot of times possibility comes 1474 01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:10,280 Speaker 2: to you as tragedy. That's a good thing to understand. 1475 01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:14,479 Speaker 2: You know. They say every treasure has a dragon, right, 1476 01:31:14,600 --> 01:31:18,280 Speaker 2: But you can reverse that, and that's worth knowing too. 1477 01:31:18,720 --> 01:31:22,400 Speaker 2: If something terrible comes your way, it's like there's an 1478 01:31:22,439 --> 01:31:26,160 Speaker 2: opportunity there, not the kind of opportunity you would have 1479 01:31:26,200 --> 01:31:28,800 Speaker 2: wished for, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Yeah, 1480 01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:30,240 Speaker 2: So that's a good thing to know. 1481 01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:34,120 Speaker 1: Have you spent a significant time with Ilo Moscow. Has 1482 01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:35,280 Speaker 1: it been more time? 1483 01:31:35,320 --> 01:31:39,120 Speaker 2: I met him four times, so we've probably spent a 1484 01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:43,760 Speaker 2: total of about seven hours together. Yeah, and I would 1485 01:31:43,800 --> 01:31:48,720 Speaker 2: say I've walked away from each encounter more impressed with 1486 01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:53,120 Speaker 2: him as a character. In terms of his character, I 1487 01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:56,280 Speaker 2: mean you have to be mouth open and amazement with 1488 01:31:56,400 --> 01:32:00,800 Speaker 2: regards to his technological and managerial entrepreneur prowess. I mean, 1489 01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:07,120 Speaker 2: it's just it's ridiculous. But I believe that he's doing 1490 01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:12,400 Speaker 2: his best to aim up, thank God. And I think 1491 01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:18,200 Speaker 2: that's what the Mars voyage is symbolize, right, He's it's 1492 01:32:18,240 --> 01:32:24,720 Speaker 2: a mythological adventure to aim up in that manner, and 1493 01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:29,400 Speaker 2: he's it's part of his story, right, It's the mythological 1494 01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:34,080 Speaker 2: dimension of his story. And it's not practical, right, except 1495 01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:37,200 Speaker 2: in so far as a great story is practical. So 1496 01:32:37,320 --> 01:32:41,120 Speaker 2: I remember the Apollo voyages. They were very motivating to people, 1497 01:32:41,600 --> 01:32:44,160 Speaker 2: you know, as an indication of what humanity was capable 1498 01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:47,120 Speaker 2: of doing. And certainly Musk is playing that out on 1499 01:32:47,240 --> 01:32:49,080 Speaker 2: the technological side. 1500 01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:53,680 Speaker 1: So beautiful, Okay, Question of a four, how do we 1501 01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:55,320 Speaker 1: scale trust. 1502 01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:59,040 Speaker 2: By attempting to practice honesty in your own life? Yeah, 1503 01:32:59,720 --> 01:33:02,760 Speaker 2: and by rewarding it among the people that you interact with. 1504 01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:09,440 Speaker 2: It's very useful to understand that you have the opportunity 1505 01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:13,680 Speaker 2: to point out other people who you interact with regularly 1506 01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:17,519 Speaker 2: what they're doing that is positive and good, and that 1507 01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:21,439 Speaker 2: that there's nothing in that that isn't productive. 1508 01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:25,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, said absolutely. Fifth and final question, we asked 1509 01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:27,439 Speaker 1: this to every guest who's ever been on the show. 1510 01:33:27,920 --> 01:33:30,519 Speaker 1: If you could create one law that everyone in the 1511 01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:32,320 Speaker 1: world had to follow, what would it be? 1512 01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:39,439 Speaker 2: Don't follow stupid rules? What constitutes a stupid rule? Now 1513 01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:43,840 Speaker 2: that's the hard part of the problem, isn't it. I think? Well, 1514 01:33:44,240 --> 01:33:46,920 Speaker 2: I had that conversation with my kids because it is 1515 01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:50,000 Speaker 2: something I told them when they went to school. I said, look, 1516 01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:52,760 Speaker 2: there's going to be reasonable rules at your school, and 1517 01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:54,960 Speaker 2: there are going to be unreasonable rules, and I don't 1518 01:33:55,000 --> 01:33:57,840 Speaker 2: require you to follow the unreasonable rules, but you have 1519 01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:02,840 Speaker 2: to be willing to bear the consequences. Right, So you're 1520 01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:09,120 Speaker 2: morally obliged to object to foolish restrictions, but you have 1521 01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:11,479 Speaker 2: to be willing to pay the price for that, and 1522 01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:13,240 Speaker 2: there will be a price, and it has to be 1523 01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:18,599 Speaker 2: you that pays it, right, And that's hot. Yes, Yes, 1524 01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:22,160 Speaker 2: it's also the difference between activism, let's say, in civil disobedience, 1525 01:34:22,439 --> 01:34:25,640 Speaker 2: because if it's civil disobedience, you pay the price. If 1526 01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:28,639 Speaker 2: it's activism, someone else does. Ohful WHOA. 1527 01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:32,439 Speaker 1: I hope everyone subscribe to the podcast if you don't already, 1528 01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:36,120 Speaker 1: check out Peterson Academy if you haven't already. New book 1529 01:34:36,160 --> 01:34:38,760 Speaker 1: out in November, we who Wrestle with God. We got 1530 01:34:39,160 --> 01:34:42,439 Speaker 1: glimpses into it today, doctor Jordan BPCE, And thank you 1531 01:34:42,520 --> 01:34:44,360 Speaker 1: so much for your time and energy. I hope we 1532 01:34:44,479 --> 01:34:47,680 Speaker 1: get to do this again. Extremely grateful for your time 1533 01:34:47,720 --> 01:34:50,280 Speaker 1: and energy. And I learned a lot today, And actually 1534 01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:52,400 Speaker 1: I feel I could have talked to you for another 1535 01:34:52,479 --> 01:34:56,920 Speaker 1: three hours about Eastern and Western religion and ideologies and 1536 01:34:57,200 --> 01:34:58,920 Speaker 1: the amount of stories that I had coming up in 1537 01:34:59,040 --> 01:35:01,280 Speaker 1: my mind to to share back and forth. But we 1538 01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:03,240 Speaker 1: can just save that for another Yeah, that would be good. 1539 01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:05,360 Speaker 2: I'd love to do. It'd be, it'd be, it'd be. 1540 01:35:06,200 --> 01:35:08,000 Speaker 2: We did a little bit of that, we got we 1541 01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:12,160 Speaker 2: got into the overlap between the narrative domains. That would 1542 01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:17,160 Speaker 2: be beautiful. I don't I don't know nearly as much 1543 01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:21,680 Speaker 2: about Hindu religious thought as I should. I know a 1544 01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:25,800 Speaker 2: little bit about Buddhism and and a moderate amount about 1545 01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,200 Speaker 2: Taoism and that's been extremely useful to me. But I'm 1546 01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:34,000 Speaker 2: less conversant with with the Hindu tradition of thought, and 1547 01:35:34,320 --> 01:35:37,360 Speaker 2: it would be very interesting too. I mean, I've never 1548 01:35:38,000 --> 01:35:42,120 Speaker 2: delved deeply, almost without exception, into a religious tradition without 1549 01:35:42,160 --> 01:35:45,599 Speaker 2: finding stories that were like of incalculable value. 1550 01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:48,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, well I'm happy to save wherever possible. 1551 01:35:48,240 --> 01:35:50,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well so yeah, that would be a good 1552 01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,320 Speaker 2: thing to thank you, thank you so much. Good to 1553 01:35:52,360 --> 01:35:52,800 Speaker 2: talk past. 1554 01:35:53,040 --> 01:35:56,360 Speaker 1: Such a pleasure. Honestly, if you love this episode, you 1555 01:35:56,600 --> 01:36:00,519 Speaker 1: love my interview with doctor Gabo Matte on under standing 1556 01:36:00,600 --> 01:36:04,439 Speaker 1: your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start 1557 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:05,880 Speaker 1: moving on from the past. 1558 01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:09,000 Speaker 2: Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a 1559 01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:11,280 Speaker 2: tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it. 1560 01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:13,679 Speaker 2: It goes where it's soft and green and vulnerable.