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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Stephane never

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Speaker 1: told you. Okay, listeners, I've had my fair share of

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Speaker 1: fictional crushes. I'll admit it. I'm going through one right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm too ambars to say it is. I will take

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Speaker 1: any and all guesses. If anyone gets it, I will

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Speaker 1: be shocked, shock shock shocked. Um, and I usually do

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Speaker 1: crush on fictional characters as opposed to celebrities like Luke Skywalker,

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Speaker 1: who was my very first crush, UM, Harry Potter, who

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Speaker 1: was my longest lasting crush, and as I've mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: young Hercules as played by Ryan Gosling. Um. If anyone

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Speaker 1: else has seen that show, please write it. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like I'm literally the only one since I am

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Speaker 1: in the throes of a fixed don't crush right now.

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Speaker 1: I want to look back at this classic episode for

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Speaker 1: some answers about Paris social relationships, which I hear folks

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Speaker 1: get for podcasters. The first time someone told me they

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Speaker 1: shipped me in a co host and sent fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: that was like the best day ever. So please enjoy

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Speaker 1: this classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You

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Speaker 1: from how stupp Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen today is a

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Speaker 1: listener request. Um, we got a letter, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: suggesting that we look into shipping and one true pairing,

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Speaker 1: and of course I immediately was like, I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that like, shipping like transporting things I

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Speaker 1: don't understand. Oh my goodness. In looking into this topic,

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Speaker 1: did we uncover a ton of research? Yeah, it's fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I have a feeling they're probably some listeners saying

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Speaker 1: I know it. Shipping is one prepairing. Of course, like you, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: I was unfamiliar with this term, but once I started

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Speaker 1: reading about it, I started out over at know your

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Speaker 1: Meme dot com. It's like the first Google result that

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Speaker 1: you'll get when it comes up, and it gives you

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Speaker 1: a pretty good um rundown of what it is. And

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Speaker 1: shipping is essentially short for relationshipping. You will also hear

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Speaker 1: about relationshippers, which would be shortened to shippers. And it

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Speaker 1: started out with fans of the X Files who were

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Speaker 1: split between relationshippers who really wanted to see Molder and

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Speaker 1: Scully get together versus the no romos who felt that

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Speaker 1: any kind of romance between Molder and Scully would totally

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Speaker 1: ruin the show. And the term has also pinned on

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Speaker 1: Pokemon fans who rooted for Jesse and James of Team

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Speaker 1: Rocket to get together and decided to call themselves Rocket shippers.

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Speaker 1: So all of that is shortened to ship or shipping,

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Speaker 1: and this whole thing is just people feeling so attached

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Speaker 1: to these characters that they start rooting for or against

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Speaker 1: certain things to happen in the show. Yeah, and we

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Speaker 1: intentionally did this episode during the week of Valentine's because

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Speaker 1: it's a different angle of attraction and emotional investment that

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Speaker 1: we don't hear much about. And obviously that the shipping

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Speaker 1: side of it gets really deep into the world of

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Speaker 1: fandom and fan fiction. But as we kind of jump

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Speaker 1: into this rabbit hole of shipping, it emerges into a

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Speaker 1: lot of areas that we probably all have some experience with.

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Speaker 1: But first, you mentioned one true pairing. That's something that

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Speaker 1: comes up a lot in shipping, and essentially it's a

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Speaker 1: couple that a fan or a group of fans prefers

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Speaker 1: over all the other ships or relationships, right, and they're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily the main characters. Sometimes people focus fan fiction on,

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Speaker 1: you know, side characters. Who they want to get together

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Speaker 1: and maybe if they think the main guy should really

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Speaker 1: be in love with some other girl over here. But

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Speaker 1: you know, you could think of one true pairing as

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Speaker 1: like Buffy and Angel or Ross and Rachel, who are

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Speaker 1: cited an insane amount in some of these studies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this all segues into this thing called a para

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Speaker 1: social relationship. And it's an actual psychological term which was

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Speaker 1: coined by Donald Horton and Richard Wall in nineteen fifties

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Speaker 1: six to describe sort of an illusion of a relationship

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Speaker 1: that a viewer or a listener will have with a

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Speaker 1: performer or some kind of character. Right. And it's, you know,

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Speaker 1: by definition, a one sided relationship where the feelings extend

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Speaker 1: past the viewing and into real life. You find yourself

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Speaker 1: thinking of out this person or character in real life,

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Speaker 1: and just the act of watching or listening to uh

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Speaker 1: this performance will just reinforce those feelings. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like if you develop a crush on someone, the more

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Speaker 1: you see them, the more you like them. It's just

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Speaker 1: that this happens to be with someone that you'll probably

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Speaker 1: never meet. Yeah, and the manifestations of these kinds of

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Speaker 1: para social relationships via shipping, fan fiction, and with our

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Speaker 1: celebrity crushes that we get aren't new at all with

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Speaker 1: with fandom specifically, know your meme talks about how in

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen a book called Old Friends, New Fancies was

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Speaker 1: published and it was a remix, an old school fan fix,

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Speaker 1: remixing characters from three Jane Austen novels. And there's even

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Speaker 1: Mr Darcy fan art side note that goes back to

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen hundreds. Um, and with celebrity culture, obviously

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's been around for quite a while,

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Speaker 1: but it goes all the way back to really the

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Speaker 1: eighteenth century, which is when you have the emergence of

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Speaker 1: the celebrity while all these other new ideas are kind

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Speaker 1: of boiling at the time in terms of selfhood, individuality,

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Speaker 1: in the pursuit of passions. Yeah, that's not something that

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Speaker 1: I ever realized that celebrity quote unquote started so early,

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Speaker 1: I mean relatively. You know, it comes along with new consumerism,

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Speaker 1: and this is when we also get gossip column no idea. Well,

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Speaker 1: and then you can tie into that not just with

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Speaker 1: our cult of celebrity, but also digging into shipping and

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Speaker 1: one true pairing and fan fiction. The evolution of all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff has really gone alongside the development of

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Speaker 1: different types of communication technologies. Whether you have, for instance,

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Speaker 1: in the late nineteenth century the rise of photography, which

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Speaker 1: helped stoke the popularity of stage star Sarah Bernhardt, and

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Speaker 1: then in the nineteen and these with mass journalism starting

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Speaker 1: to rise, you have something called jazz journalism, which I

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Speaker 1: guess were like the early celebrity tabloids. Yeah, really focusing

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Speaker 1: on entertainment over news, glorifying celebrities, you know, people like

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Speaker 1: Charles Lindberg, you know, who is a huge celebrity for

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Speaker 1: his beats of aviation. Um, so why why the long

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Speaker 1: held focus? What are we what are we so obsessed

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Speaker 1: with celebrities for? Yeah, I mean, and this is looking

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Speaker 1: more moving away a little bit from the fan fiction

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Speaker 1: element and into actual living people living in Hollywood A

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Speaker 1: lot of times that we want to see photos of

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Speaker 1: while they're getting their groceries, Like why why do we

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Speaker 1: care when celebrities do everything? And guess what, folks, there

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Speaker 1: are so many theories about its. Scholars think about this

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Speaker 1: stuff too. Yeah, a lot of it. Theories include just

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Speaker 1: the facts, simple fact that we enjoy living vicariously through

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Speaker 1: really beautiful, rich people. That doesn't seem that hard to

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Speaker 1: figure out. There's also, of course schadenfreud, where we take

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Speaker 1: pleasure and the misfortune of others. So if Lindsay Lohan

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Speaker 1: gets arrested again, or you know, somebody there's a picture

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Speaker 1: of somebody tripping and falling, we tend to get a

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Speaker 1: kick out of it. When you move into the more

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Speaker 1: kind of literary look at things, linguists George Lakeoff, who

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Speaker 1: in his book The Political Mind, posited that certain frame

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Speaker 1: based scenarios like rags to richest stories really appeal to

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Speaker 1: us because they trigger an emotional response. They're imprinted in

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Speaker 1: our brains. Rags to Richest story like Anaticle Smith, or

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Speaker 1: bad boys stories like Charlie Sheen. They're very familiar to us,

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Speaker 1: and so they gain traction pretty easily. And because we

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Speaker 1: are all sort of exposed in different levels to these celebrities,

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that Fred English, who authored a Short

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Speaker 1: History of Celebrity, describes celebrity as a type of quote

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Speaker 1: unquote social adhesive because, I mean, big can help us

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Speaker 1: find common ground. It gives us something to talk about

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Speaker 1: when you don't know someone very well. If you can

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Speaker 1: find a celebrity or a television show or a book

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Speaker 1: that you have in common Boom conversation. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: know every party I go to, I talk about Ryan Gosling.

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Speaker 1: Hear that. I mean, I really don't talk about anything else. Starr, Well,

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Speaker 1: Ryan Gosling and Corgies pretty much all I talk about.

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Speaker 1: But Daniel Boorsten back in nineteen six two had a

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Speaker 1: different theory. He said that, um, we are subbing in

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Speaker 1: celebrities for gods and heroes of your Basically, we're losing

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Speaker 1: our religion, we're losing our traditions, and so we are

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Speaker 1: looking to these beautiful, rich people to fill holes left. Well,

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Speaker 1: but you still have room for real life heroes too,

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Speaker 1: of say, maybe a Hillary Clinton or a insert famous

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Speaker 1: athlete whose name isn't readily coming to mind. But no

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Speaker 1: matter whether that person is a movie star or a

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Speaker 1: politics shan or an athlete whomember they are. Evolutionary psychology

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Speaker 1: maintains that it's really ingrained in our humanity to want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, pay attention to higher status people, right exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like Slate columnist Robert Wright, who wrote that keeping up

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Speaker 1: with all of the gossip about people, whether it's people

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Speaker 1: at work, you know, celebrities in the news. It can

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Speaker 1: quote inform social maneuvering for sex and other vital resources.

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Speaker 1: And that sort of information about who's up, who's down,

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Speaker 1: who's doing what, who's doing whom uh is the sort

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Speaker 1: of information that's conducive to fitness. Yeah, and also it's

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Speaker 1: Slate columnist Jack Schaefer even ties it to reproduction, saying that, well,

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Speaker 1: we're paying attention to these people and who they're having

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Speaker 1: babies with. I mean thinking about how, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: pregnancy pictures of movie stars these days. It's kind of crazy.

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Speaker 1: And in a very simplicit kind of way, Schaefer describes how,

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Speaker 1: way way back in you know, our our human ancestors time,

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Speaker 1: we didn't need an US weekly to tell us what

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Speaker 1: the higher status individuals were doing, who they were having

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Speaker 1: babies with. You look around, you see your group, and

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Speaker 1: you know what's up. But today we almost need the

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Speaker 1: celebrity culture to keep us clued in to what the

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Speaker 1: higher status folk are up to and wearing and buying

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Speaker 1: and where they're vacationing. Right, and he opines that women

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Speaker 1: make up the bulk of the readers of tabloids and

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Speaker 1: the subjects of tabloids because we are supposedly checking out

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Speaker 1: the alpha competition. Well, I wonder if that's you could

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Speaker 1: make that same kind of statement to about Like, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: women might pay attention more attention to Hollywood, but plenty

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Speaker 1: of guys are watching ESPN for a lot of hours

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Speaker 1: of the day too. So in all of this kind

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Speaker 1: of constant checking on our favorite celebrities or lee favorite celebrities, depending,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of seeing that they've succeeded in society.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we want to attain some of what they have.

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Speaker 1: But when you start focusing too much on some things,

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Speaker 1: you might start to become obsessive and actually developed celebrity

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Speaker 1: worship syndrome. Yeah, this is an actual obsessive, addictive disorder

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Speaker 1: in which, as you might guess, a person becomes overly

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Speaker 1: involved with the details of UH celebrities life. And this

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Speaker 1: really came to light UH in two thousand two when

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Speaker 1: a team of psychologists developed the Celebrity Attitude Scale to

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Speaker 1: rank people along the spectrum of how deeply embedded celebrity

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Speaker 1: culture is in their lives right, and they found three

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Speaker 1: dimensions to celebrity worship, basically three tiers of how freaking

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Speaker 1: obsessed you are and how much of a role it

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Speaker 1: plays in your life. You've got the bottom tier, which

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Speaker 1: is entertainment social. It basically has added who It's like

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Speaker 1: I just like to chat with a friend about how

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Speaker 1: hot this celebrity is. UM. It just reflects the social

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Speaker 1: aspects of celebrity worship, getting around the water cooler, talking

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Speaker 1: about the hot guy on the show last night. There's

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Speaker 1: the next here, which is intense personal and it reflects

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Speaker 1: individuals intensive and compulsive feelings around the celebrity. So you're

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Speaker 1: not just talking about what a good character the kid

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Speaker 1: is or whatever. You're going into fandom. Then the next

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Speaker 1: here is borderline pathological, which is basically like, if X

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Speaker 1: y Z celebrity told me to steal, I would do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's that level of obsession where you get into scarier

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Speaker 1: issues of stalking UM and Speaking to the BBC, Dr

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Speaker 1: John Malty, who is a CYC instructor at the University

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Speaker 1: of Lester who has studied the celebrity worship syndrome, says

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Speaker 1: that around one person of people that he's studied at

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Speaker 1: least show more of those obsession and old tendencies, but

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Speaker 1: a majority of us are on that first here of

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Speaker 1: the entertainment. So shall we pay attention. We might, you know,

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Speaker 1: go to I don't know, delisted every now and then,

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Speaker 1: but it doesn't consume our lives, sure exactly, Um, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean this this does move out of

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Speaker 1: the realm of real, live people and back to what

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Speaker 1: we started talking about at the top of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: which is fan fiction developing relationships with characters not necessarily

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Speaker 1: real people. Yeah, you can develop very real in a way,

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Speaker 1: para social relationships, not just with celebrities on the street,

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Speaker 1: but also with either characters that celebrities might be portraying

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Speaker 1: in shows or you know, in literature, with your favorite

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Speaker 1: characters in books. And NPR commentator Jake halpern I had

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Speaker 1: a great piece about this, talking about his paras social

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Speaker 1: relationship with a cast of cheers. I loved it, I know,

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Speaker 1: or he just really wanted to go and hang out

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Speaker 1: with him. He felt like he could, yeah, go and

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Speaker 1: get a beer and make conversation, right, And it goes

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Speaker 1: back to that continuing relationship that that Horton and Wall

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Speaker 1: talked about when they coined the term para social relationship.

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Speaker 1: Just that you know, Helper and watches the show. Every

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Speaker 1: week he knows what Cliff and Norm are talking about

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Speaker 1: at the bar and he wants to join them, and

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Speaker 1: that relationship feels all the stronger for the fact that

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Speaker 1: he checks in with them every week and they are

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Speaker 1: exactly the same. That's another big part of these para

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Speaker 1: social relationships with characters is that they're kind of always

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Speaker 1: the same. Yeah, And I kind of experienced this earlier

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Speaker 1: this year with breaking bad in and in a not

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Speaker 1: so positive sense, like I did not want to go

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Speaker 1: hang out with Walt, don't get me wrong, but I

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Speaker 1: in order to catch up for the final season. And

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Speaker 1: don't worry, I'm not going to spoil anything for anyone

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Speaker 1: who hasn't seen all of it, um, but in order

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Speaker 1: to catch up, I binge watched it because a lot

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Speaker 1: of it was on Netflix, and I found myself Caroline,

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Speaker 1: thinking about Jessie and Walt and you know, like in

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Speaker 1: reactions to like things would happen in my day, and

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Speaker 1: I think, oh, Skyler would totally not be down with that,

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Speaker 1: you know, like it was starting to get weird end

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the show, when I had very low investment.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't something that I ever thought would happen, but

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Speaker 1: I developed a very real, kind of strange and unwanted

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Speaker 1: attachment to these characters. But when it comes to the

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Speaker 1: thought of making emotional psychological connections with fictional characters or

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Speaker 1: with celebrities, you might think, well, that might be a

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Speaker 1: sign that something is not so well adjusted, either in

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Speaker 1: your social life or your brain. But research bears out

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Speaker 1: different and kind of counterintuitive results, which we will get into.

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Speaker 1: And we come right back from a quick break and

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Speaker 1: now back to the podcast. So we were just talking

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Speaker 1: about connection two characters on TV, characters and movies, uh,

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Speaker 1: fake people who you develop these connections with after repeated

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Speaker 1: viewings of a show, And Kristen had been saying that,

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of the research is counterintuitive that

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Speaker 1: you would think like the loneliest, saddest people would be

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Speaker 1: the ones to develop all these relationships, and that's not

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Speaker 1: necessarily true, although some studies have connected some degree of

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Speaker 1: loneliness with these para social relationships. Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 1: study published in the Journal of Experimental Psychology that it

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Speaker 1: came out in two thousand nine, and it essentially found

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Speaker 1: that absolutely these familiar television shows are sort of loneliness

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Speaker 1: bridges for us we turn it on to kind of

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Speaker 1: keep his company. Maybe if we're at home alone or

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Speaker 1: if we are going through sort of a downer period,

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Speaker 1: we might be more likely to watch our favorite television shows. Right,

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Speaker 1: And they just said that it's basically a lot less

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Speaker 1: work to turn on the TV than too struggle to

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Speaker 1: maintain connections with real people, if especially if you are

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Speaker 1: feeling down, And they tested the social surrogacy hypothesis, theorizing

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Speaker 1: that loneliness actually motivates people to seek out relationships even

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Speaker 1: if those relationships aren't real. Which not to make me

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Speaker 1: sound like I'm off the charts on the para social

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Speaker 1: relationship skill, Caroline. This also reminds me of when I

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Speaker 1: a while ago went through a pretty awful breakup and

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Speaker 1: I just started compulsively out of nowhere watching How I

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Speaker 1: Met Your Mother and I had to have it on

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Speaker 1: like in like a couple of weeks, Like I just

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Speaker 1: had to have it on in the background just to

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Speaker 1: have something on. And even though I don't love the show,

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Speaker 1: but I couldn't stop watching the show, you know, And

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Speaker 1: it's about like, and it totally makes sense reading this

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Speaker 1: research because it's about a group of friends like who

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Speaker 1: are dealing with relationships, yeah, exactly. And when I lived

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Speaker 1: by myself in Augusta, you know, I be cooking dinner

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Speaker 1: at night and would find myself turning the TV on

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Speaker 1: to feel less kind of lonely during dinner time, you know,

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Speaker 1: like having those voices they're having people on TV, either

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Speaker 1: reading the news or a sitcom or something made it

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Speaker 1: feel like the house was full. And if we move

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Speaker 1: from things like television programs back into the realm of

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Speaker 1: fan fiction and getting more online with shipping and one

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Speaker 1: true pairing, I think it serves a similar kind of

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Speaker 1: not just as a creative outlet, but also I think

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Speaker 1: it does serve a social function as well, because with

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Speaker 1: one true pairing in particular, people are so heavily invested

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Speaker 1: in these couples. And it's funny though, like side note

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Speaker 1: how Ross and Rachel from Friends are examples of almost

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Speaker 1: every trope yeah in in fan fiction, because like you

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Speaker 1: could look at them as the one true pairing, you

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Speaker 1: can also look at them as going through the quote

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Speaker 1: unquote official couple or deal syndrome, where you know, people

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Speaker 1: are identifying with these characters, but these characters are being

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Speaker 1: put through hell there the show creators are toying with

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Speaker 1: your emotions. But then what's interesting to see with one

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Speaker 1: prepairing is that it's so more active than us just

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Speaker 1: passively watching television or even just having it on in

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Speaker 1: the background, because they really become the architects of these

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Speaker 1: fictional characters live. So the point that you get into

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Speaker 1: slash fiction where characters are having sex with other characters,

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Speaker 1: and they're all sorts of different pairings, whether it's a

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Speaker 1: ho ya ship which is homo erotic positive shipping, or

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Speaker 1: sister ship which yep, gets incestuous. Uh, and on and

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Speaker 1: on and on, and this this is such a deeper

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Speaker 1: level of investment. Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 1: worth looking at how you even get that involved, because

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Speaker 1: I don't think I mean, there have been a few

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Speaker 1: characters I just don't watch a lot of TV disclaimer,

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Speaker 1: but there have been characters historically where I have been

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Speaker 1: like super invested in them. You know, I am obsessed

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Speaker 1: with them almost, But I have no idea what's behind

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Speaker 1: that and what even got me there. And one example

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Speaker 1: that I can think of is during high school, when

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Speaker 1: I'm going to bring it up, Christen, when I watched

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Speaker 1: La fem Nikita. Okay, my favorite show. How many times

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Speaker 1: have I mentioned this? But so I'm a teen, been

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Speaker 1: high school and I'm watching this really incredibly powerful kick

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Speaker 1: butt woman every week, and you know, it was toying

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Speaker 1: with my emotions because they were going to cancel that

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Speaker 1: show like three thousand different times, but that she stayed

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Speaker 1: on the air, and I just I really did feel

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Speaker 1: like I developed this relationship with her, like, well, if

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Speaker 1: only she knew me, But she's fake, so she doesn't.

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Speaker 1: But it's interesting you say, though, that you were in

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Speaker 1: high school, because one factor that psychologists have identified as

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Speaker 1: sort of predisposing you to form a paras social relationships

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Speaker 1: is being in periods of transition. I was going through

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Speaker 1: a breakup when I went through my how I met

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Speaker 1: your mother just almost dark spell. I wouldn't leave my apartment. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you were going through high school. Is there a

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Speaker 1: more transitional time than that, right? And so yeah, people

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Speaker 1: who end up with this over the top, either celebrity

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Speaker 1: worship for real life people or paras social relationships with characters,

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Speaker 1: they tend to be going through life transitions. And the

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Speaker 1: same goes for elderly folks. That's another big period of

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Speaker 1: transition with limited mobility and One study was looking specifically

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Speaker 1: at the paras social relationships that elderly people form with

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Speaker 1: like TV shopping hosts. Because they are in that period

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Speaker 1: of transition where maybe they don't see their family as much,

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Speaker 1: they have fewer sources of information. They are more susceptible

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Speaker 1: to these paras social relationships because they can't get out

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Speaker 1: and so they are lonely. We have said already that

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Speaker 1: loneliness is a motivating factor for pursuing connections, and so

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Speaker 1: they end up being more likely to overuse TV shopping

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Speaker 1: channels because those hosts are like friends to them because

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Speaker 1: they're probably talking directly to them. Right, It's not like

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Speaker 1: a sitcom necessarily where I mean, obviously you can develop

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Speaker 1: para social relationships, etcetera, etcetera. But you know, sitcom stars

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Speaker 1: are talking to each other. The TV host on the

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Speaker 1: shopping network is looking right at you. Ah, that makes

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Speaker 1: so much sense in the saddest way possible. I know,

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Speaker 1: go hug a grandmother someone. But I mean, research has

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Speaker 1: shown that these para social relationships can influence I mean

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Speaker 1: so much. They can influence our views of social issues

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Speaker 1: like gay rights. If there are gay characters on TV,

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Speaker 1: then and you feel like you know them, then you're

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Speaker 1: more likely to change your view of gay rights. It

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Speaker 1: can even influence teens views of how to achieve goals

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Speaker 1: that are related to the development of their identities. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's one thing that can also make p says more effective,

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Speaker 1: as if that's why you have celebrities who are saying, Hey,

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Speaker 1: don't flush tampons, that's not a p s A anyone's

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Speaker 1: ever done, probably, or or learn to read things like that, right,

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Speaker 1: don't drink and drive, that's a p s A. Thank

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Speaker 1: you learned to read tampon labels. I would make a

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Speaker 1: horrible p s A writer. Um, But speaking of tampons,

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Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about gender, because my assumption

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Speaker 1: going into this was that this is something that probably

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Speaker 1: is more appealing to women and younger women. And it's

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Speaker 1: not that it doesn't occur with a lot of women.

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Speaker 1: It's just that men and women both experience it, and

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Speaker 1: we kind of experience it for different reasons. We have

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Speaker 1: different motivations for turning the TV on, and we have

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Speaker 1: different motivations for leaving it on and coming back week

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Speaker 1: after week. Yeah, there was one interesting study that came out.

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Speaker 1: It's a little dated, but it was looking at the

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Speaker 1: intersection of dating, gender, and paras social relationships, and it

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Speaker 1: found that men tended to form stronger PSRs with TV

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Speaker 1: characters when they were anxious in their dating situation, whereas

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Speaker 1: women were the opposite. We tended to form those para

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Speaker 1: social relationships when we were more secure. So it was

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Speaker 1: in a way we were we as in women were

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Speaker 1: using these characters and TV shows as a way of

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Speaker 1: sort of more firmly securing our dating situation. Yeah. They

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Speaker 1: they found that women tend to see TV as a

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Speaker 1: friend or companion, whereas men are turning to TV to

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Speaker 1: solve problems, which is pretty interesting. Well, it's also interesting

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Speaker 1: is that Twilighting the whole team Edward, team Jake. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Twilight is just rife with para social relationships, fan fiction,

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Speaker 1: one true pairing, and go on and on and on.

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Speaker 1: I mean to the point that, uh, fifty Shades of

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Speaker 1: Gray was born out of the fan fiction. You could

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Speaker 1: call it some kind what kind of ship would that be?

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Speaker 1: Or you take a Bella character and you pair her

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Speaker 1: up with a guy who's really into bedious and I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I'm sure it exists. Um, But Twilighting, though,

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Speaker 1: is a double form of para social relationship where you

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Speaker 1: have fans of Twilight who transpose their para social relationships

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Speaker 1: with characters in the book onto actors, right right, And

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Speaker 1: so that led Robert Pattinson at one point to say, like,

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Speaker 1: they know that I'm playing a character, right, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: just some brit from you know, over across the pond.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a guy. But those kinds of para social

429
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: relationships they do have, really, they do have really real results.

430
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 1: They are a more eloquent way to say that it's

431
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: really real, but they do have results on us, not

432
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 1: just in terms of making PSA is more effective, etcetera, etcetera,

433
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: or alleviating loneliness for the time being, but also when

434
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: those characters like Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart, Bella and

435
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 1: Edward break up, we also feel that too. Oh, the horror,

436
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 1: the heartbreak. No, I mean yeah, And these these breakup

437
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: feelings can be felt for characters in a movie or

438
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: on TV, or for real life people who you don't

439
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: know but you sure are sad about their divorce. Yeah,

440
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: I had. Really it made me feel awkward to myself

441
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: having a an emotional reaction to the announcement of Amy

442
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: Poehler and well our nets divorce, two people I would

443
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: love to meet, probably never will. And who I thought was, Oh,

444
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: I love both of the things that they do in

445
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 1: television and movies. Why did I care? It was the

446
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: strangest thing, Caroline. Yeah, I I mean I I've felt

447
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: that too, you know, just like extreme sadness over like

448
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: you guys can't work it out, there's not anything. What happened,

449
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: What happened, happened, what happened. And so Kristen, not to

450
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: make this completely about La fem Nikita, like I do everything,

451
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 1: but there have been studies that look at people's feelings

452
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: about the end of a show and so the end

453
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: of a relationship, a para social relationship that they have

454
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: with the character. And like I said, you know, USA

455
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: was going to cancel a Femniki to like fifteen thousand times,

456
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: and the fan base, I mean I was only in

457
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: high school, but like the active online fan base went

458
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: crazy and actually got the show back because people were

459
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 1: so intensely invested in the story. Yeah. Jonathan Cohen is

460
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: a researcher who has done a couple of studies actually

461
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: on these para social breakups, and he's found in a

462
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 1: nutshell that yes, we do feel them too, but the

463
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: level that we feel them is very much tied to

464
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: our psychological attachment style. You hear this a lot with

465
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: a relationship psychology, where you are usually fall into one

466
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: or three categories of being securely attached, avoidantly attached. Was

467
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: just like who don't call me, I'll call you yeah,

468
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: or you have anxious attachment. And people who are more

469
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: anxiously attached, people who might be in real life little

470
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: more nervous about the status of their relationships, tend to

471
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: feel these kinds of para social breakups a little more

472
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: strongly than avoidantly or securely attached people, right, and Cohen

473
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: was saying that because it's not necessarily the people we

474
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: would think having these para social relationships, that we should

475
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: probably view PSRs as an extension of people's social relationships,

476
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 1: not necessarily compensation for a lack of them, because, like

477
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: we said, you know, men are if they're anxious about

478
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: their relationships, they'll turn to TV. If women are feeling

479
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: great about theirs, they'll turn to TV. It's not necessarily

480
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: that you completely avoid human contact, because he argues, if

481
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: you were an avoidant personality. You wouldn't want to create

482
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: relationships with characters on TV either, right, right, Well, and

483
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: it's also good to point out too, that there have

484
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: been a number of studies, you know, confirming and reconfirming

485
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: that para social relationships are not red flags that you

486
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 1: are a shut in and don't know how to make friends.

487
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: It's actually more tied to characteristics of extraversion and sociability.

488
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: It's like you said, it's an extension of these relationships. Um,

489
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: there's one other study which found that we tend to

490
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: rate these characters as closer than acquaintances, but not as

491
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: close as close friends. That's good, Yeah, yeah, that is

492
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: that's good. I'm I'm glad that we do rate our

493
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: friends higher than fictional characters. And to bring up yet

494
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 1: another gendered aspect of this research, Cohen points out in

495
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: his study of basically anticipating the end of a series

496
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: that women who generally report stronger PSRs did not report

497
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: expecting higher levels of distress as the show was ending

498
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: in their relationships with these characters are ending, and he

499
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: says that that probably has something to do with the

500
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: fact that we're better able to cope with the end

501
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: of real life relationships slightly better than men anyway, well

502
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 1: and regardless of gender. The one thing that with all

503
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: of this information on para social breakups. Great part about

504
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: shipping and once you're pairing in fandom and online fan

505
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: fiction and all these communities that exist, is that you

506
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: never have to break up. Now you can simply dive

507
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: into these new worlds and create these new worlds and

508
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: new relationships. And and we also now have more accessibility

509
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: to real life celebrities than ever before. And you also

510
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: have I bet there's some listeners who might be familiar

511
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: with the YouTube series The Lizzie Bennett Diaries, where they

512
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: did an incredible job of having social media updates in

513
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 1: real time as the show is going on. So you

514
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: felt like you knew these characters as people because they're

515
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: in your Twitter feeds making comments and people got, you know,

516
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: so into it. I think because of that closer relationship

517
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: they were able to form. Mhm, this is interesting. It

518
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: is interesting. I mean, it definitely made me think about

519
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: my media consumption differently. Yeah, it made me extra thankful

520
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: that I don't do much TV watching. Although you know

521
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: what I will say this, Sally, my mother, Sally like

522
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: goes she would be so embarrassed if she knew I

523
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: was saying this. She goes to the store every Friday

524
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 1: to pick up the new tabloid round Um, and when

525
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: I go home for dinner or whatever, like, she'll hand

526
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: them off to me. And so that's the only time

527
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: I ever read tabloids is when Sally hands them to me.

528
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: And it's easy to get caught up in that, Like

529
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: as you're reading it, I'm like, oh, my god, she's

530
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: pregnant again, or like, oh, she looks so beautiful in

531
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 1: that designer gown, you know, like it's I can see

532
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: how it is very easy to get caught up in

533
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: in the celebrity worship. Yeah, I mean, and since this

534
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: is a podcast, I feel like I need to admit

535
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: my own paras social podcast relationships that I have with

536
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: the ones that I listened to on a regular basis,

537
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: Like Professor blast Off fans listen Tegnataro is like a

538
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: friend to me in my head. I wish I wish

539
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: in my in my living room too. Well, it's easy

540
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: because you know, especially it's not like with a lot

541
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: of things like podcast or whatever. It's not like people

542
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: are very formally talking about very formal things, you know.

543
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,479
Speaker 1: It's it's like we're having a conversation right now, and

544
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure people out there also feel included in the

545
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: conversation as we want you to. Yeah, I would love

546
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: for people to form paras social relationships with us, Yeah,

547
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: for sure. But I hope that this was entertaining. I

548
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: know that we covered a lot of territory, from the

549
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: fictional to the more celebrity focus stuff, but it all

550
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: ties together, and I don't know, to me, it was

551
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: it was nice to see how the world of fandom,

552
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: which we might think of as as sort of a

553
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: niche thing that we might not be that engaged with,

554
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: we all engage in some form of it. Yeah, we

555
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: all do. It's just the fact that I have ever

556
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: felt disappointed that a celebrity couple has broken up, Like

557
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: when I when I saw that Carrie Russell who okay

558
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: here here multi layered. I was obsessed with Felicity when

559
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: it was on TV, and I started rewatching it on

560
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: Netflix not too long ago. So I'm just like Carrie Russell,

561
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: I just freaking love you. I think she's adorable, and

562
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: then she gets married in real life and I think

563
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: her husband's all handsome and she's so pretty and they've

564
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: got this pretty kid, and then I hear that they're

565
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 1: getting a divorce and I'm like, no, Felicity, No, And

566
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: so well, because that probably ties back into the theory

567
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: of how, you know, we sort of live through them

568
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, and if they're at the top

569
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: of the social hierarchy and and we see them, you know,

570
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: not being able to quote unquote make it work, right,

571
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: then sure it can give us pause, like, well, that

572
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: can't If they can't be perfect, how could I be perfect?

573
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: But I don't think people should feel too bad about it,

574
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: you know, because it's kind of like just if you're

575
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: a freshman in high school looking at the seniors in

576
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,800
Speaker 1: high school and their cool cars and their cool clothes,

577
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: and they get to do things, you know, they have

578
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 1: you know, cell phones or whatever whatever the kids have

579
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: these days. They got their snapchats, their snapchats, and there

580
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: roulettes and whatnot. Um, it's kind of the same thing.

581
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 1: It's just like, what are the cool kids doing? Yeah? Yeah, well,

582
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: I definitely want to hear from listeners on this does

583
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: this ring bells for you? Who do you have a

584
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: par of social relationship with? Let us know you can

585
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: write to us mom Stuff at Discovery dot com or

586
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: just tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast. You can always

587
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: send us a message over on Facebook. And we've got

588
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: a cup will of messages to share with you now

589
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: about our episode on gender reveal parties. So I've got

590
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: one here from Megan, and she writes, I have attended

591
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,359
Speaker 1: a small party, but I haven't hosted one, but when

592
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: I went to had no gifts involved in just an

593
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: hour or so, a fun chit chat and a delicious cake.

594
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: If people want to continue to have parties like this

595
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,479
Speaker 1: in all caps, she says, go for it. I don't

596
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: have to bring a gift, but I do get cake

597
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: and get to talk to people I mostly like. So sure,

598
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: but I have heard of these parties going a little overboard,

599
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: and I just can't stand behind that. I agree, if

600
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:41,920
Speaker 1: you're going to have a shower, then that should be

601
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 1: the only time I should have to buy a gift

602
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 1: for your baby. And too many parties seems like too

603
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: much work. But I am a mom, so I have

604
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 1: a different point of view than you guys. Might I

605
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: like the idea of this type of thing. It seems

606
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: super fun, and I plan to do something similar with

607
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: my husband and I have another child. It wasn't something

608
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: I knew of when I had my daughter. And for me,

609
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: and like the party I went to, I will likely

610
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 1: only invite close family and friends, provide cake, and keep

611
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: it short. But I think sharing that moment when you

612
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: find out whether you're having a boy or a girl

613
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 1: is kind of sweet. Whether we have some kind of

614
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 1: dyed cake or icing or stuff balloons in a box,

615
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, but most of these I've seen here

616
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: pretty cute and make for an adorable picture. To me,

617
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: it just seems like one of those things that if

618
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 1: someone wants to take the effort to do it, let

619
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: them have it, as long as they don't expect too

620
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: much of other people. So thanks Megan. You know, right

621
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 1: after we recorded that episode, I got on Facebook and

622
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: a friend of mine from college had posted pictures of

623
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: her gender revealed party. Really and I looked at the

624
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: picture and I was like, is this what I think

625
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,400
Speaker 1: it is? Because it was a picture of a small

626
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: white cake and on it were two football helmet and

627
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: one was pink and one was blue, and it said

628
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: pink versus Blue. And then the next picture was the

629
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 1: cut cake that had pink cake inside of it. I

630
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: was like, man, Kristen and I are on the ball.

631
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 1: We got our fingers on the pulse. That's right, of something,

632
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: of something. The cake trends um well. This letter is

633
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 1: from Jennifer. She said, in November, I found out that

634
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,760
Speaker 1: not only was I pregnant, but that I was twenty

635
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 1: six weeks pregnant. Three negative pregnancy tests, no weight gain,

636
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: and very mild symptoms, all of which could be put

637
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: down to other things, led me to believe I was

638
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: going through early menopause. I found out at a regular

639
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: doctor's appointment. My husband got off work early that day

640
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: and we got an ultrasound that afternoon. We had already

641
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 1: had too many surprises that day and decided not to

642
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: find out the gender at the time, so we were

643
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: given a sealed envelope. We wanted to keep the surprise

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00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: for a while, and we wanted to make sure not

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00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: to get too many gender specific clothes, toys, or decor

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00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: for our child. However, both of our mothers were really

647
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 1: keen to know where they whether they were getting a

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00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: granddaughter or a grandson. Also, answering the question got to

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00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: be kind of an annoyance with the agreement of the

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00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: friends who were throwing our shower for us in January twelve,

651
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: we gave the envelope to our cake maker, another friend

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00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: and had her do a gender reveal cake for our

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00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 1: baby shower. That way, a lot of the gifts we

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00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: would get would be gender neutral, we wouldn't be having

655
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: a second party that people might think they were required

656
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: to bring gifts for, and we could answer the question

657
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: and share our reaction with an awful lot of people

658
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 1: at once. Because our mothers and extended families live more

659
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: than a thousand miles away from us in opposite directions,

660
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: they couldn't be there, but we were able to have

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00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: friends set up webcams for live streaming so that everyone

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00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 1: could share the info. One cutting into that cake and

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00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 1: pulling out the pink slice was a wonderful moment for

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00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: us to share with our families and our extended chosen families.

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00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: A k A friend, I will say that I am

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00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: a bit unsure about making it a whole separate party

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00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: and very much of the belief that it is crasped

668
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: beyond acceptability to make it a second expected gift giving event.

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00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: So thank you, Jennifer. I think your story is great

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00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you got to share your special moment

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00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: with people via webcam, and thanks to everybody who's written

672
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 1: in to us, Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is

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00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: our email address and the only other address you need

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00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: to know. To find all things stuff mom and A

675
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: told you, including every single podcast, blog, video, and social

676
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: media link, head on over to stuff Mom Never told

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00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 1: You dot com for more on this and thousands of

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00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com