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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Breaking news.

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Speaker 2: Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing day thirteen.

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Speaker 1: This as believe it or not.

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Speaker 2: Another missive regarding Nancy Guthrie's kidnapp has just been received.

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Speaker 1: Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I

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Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Since this case began, Sheriff Chris Nanos has been in

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Speaker 3: the spotlight and now it's being reported that Savannah Guthrie

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Speaker 3: told the sheriff investigating the abduction of her mother, Nancy Guthrie,

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Speaker 3: she doesn't need him. Pemac County Sheriff Chris Nanos he

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Speaker 3: has been under a lot of scrutinies since day one

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Speaker 3: of this investigation. He spoke to Fox News and said

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Speaker 3: that he has talked and texted with Savannah and that

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Speaker 3: she said she has her own people and didn't need him.

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Speaker 3: He goes on to say that the family members have

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Speaker 3: been involved in the investigation. They've been very cooperative. He

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Speaker 3: actually says, whatever we've asked for, they've done. But then

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Speaker 3: he adds this, it was getting crazy out there with

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Speaker 3: allegations about the family. You can't accuse people of horrific

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Speaker 3: crime like that and not have any facts behind it.

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Speaker 3: Now he says that, but in the same interview, he

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Speaker 3: also says no one is really ever ruled out as

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Speaker 3: of today.

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Speaker 2: Joining us in All Star panel, but straight out to

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Speaker 2: Dave Matt Crime Stories Investigative reporter, a new missive regarding

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Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie, what happened to Matt?

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Speaker 4: PMZ received a third email from a guy who claims

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Speaker 4: he knows the identity of Nancy Guthrie's kidnapper, but he's

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Speaker 4: changing the rules. If you remember, in his last note,

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Speaker 4: he said he's not being taken seriously and they will

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Speaker 4: not hear from him again. He wanted one bitcoin that

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Speaker 4: was worth about sixty eight thousand dollars at the time.

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Speaker 4: Now this new email says he's contacting TMZ because he

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Speaker 4: doesn't trust law enforcement. He's using TMZ as an intermediary

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Speaker 4: telling authorities you don't trust me, I don't trust you.

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Speaker 4: So now he's suggesting the reward being doubled to one

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Speaker 4: hundred thousand dollars is because of him. It's a he

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Speaker 4: actually says, it's to discredit me. That's why they raised

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Speaker 4: the word to one hundred thousand dollars. Now he says

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Speaker 4: that he wants one hundred thousand dollars the FBI reward.

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Speaker 4: But here's how he wants it. He's asking for a

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Speaker 4: fraction of bitcoin worth about fifty thousand dollars, and in

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Speaker 4: return for that, he will then give up the information

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Speaker 4: and then he expects another fifty thousand in bitcoins. He

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Speaker 4: promises he will not withdraw the first fifty k until

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Speaker 4: the kidnapper is arrested. That is the third email from

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Speaker 4: this guy. By the way, one important change to all

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Speaker 4: of this. In his email, he says that when he

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Speaker 4: gets the initial pain, then he will give up the

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Speaker 4: name of the main individual, referring to the main individual,

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Speaker 4: suggesting that there are accomplices as we've mentioned before in

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Speaker 4: his previous emails. There you go, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: The third email also Dave Matt.

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Speaker 2: Isn't it true that he refers to the current state

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Speaker 2: of Savannah's mother.

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Speaker 1: We don't have specific details.

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Speaker 2: Harvey Levin is not releasing that, but he is referring

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Speaker 2: to Nancy.

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Speaker 1: But I can't assume.

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Speaker 2: That he is saying that she is alive and well,

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Speaker 2: or that she is alive, Otherwise this will be an

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Speaker 2: entirely different report right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's not being very specific about it. But

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Speaker 4: again he does refer it to the quote current state

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Speaker 4: of Nancy Guthrie, but he's not alluding to whether it's

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Speaker 4: good bad. It's just that she is alive. But nothing else.

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Speaker 2: This as DNA has been sent to a private lab

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Speaker 2: in Florida. There's a few going on about that. Why

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Speaker 2: not to Quantico. I have strong believe that if we

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Speaker 2: recover DNA, it will be touch DNA.

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Speaker 1: We have a DNA expert joining us.

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Speaker 2: Also, there is a walk back, a switch in the

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Speaker 2: glove and narrative from Sheriff and Nanos, and we learned

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Speaker 2: about a prior investigation by.

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Speaker 1: The FBI into Nanos.

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Speaker 2: Also at this hour, a not so official composite has

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Speaker 2: been released. But I want to go straight back to

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Speaker 2: what's happening right now, and that is the missive now,

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Speaker 2: the third one from the same rat who wants to

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Speaker 2: rat out the rat that took Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's a lot wrong with this equation.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to Scott Iiker, former fed with the FBI,

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Speaker 2: founding of Cast Cellular Analysis Survey Team now at Pcaexperts

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Speaker 2: dot com Precision Cellular Analysis. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: You spent years and years with the FBI. This missive

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Speaker 2: is all wrong. Have you ever seen people who go,

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Speaker 2: you're not taking me seriously, well for a reason, or

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Speaker 2: I'm not crazy translation, I'm totally crazy.

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Speaker 1: Same thing here.

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Speaker 5: I agree one of these. When we get these national

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Speaker 5: events like this, and even if it's just a state

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Speaker 5: event or something like that, we can always get numerous,

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Speaker 5: numerous tips or people that want to get involved or

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Speaker 5: want to try to make money off of this, and

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Speaker 5: we got to run them all down. That's the problem.

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Speaker 5: You're taking investigative resources away from what they should be

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Speaker 5: doing to run down this lead and that lead and

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Speaker 5: this lead. So if it's not real, please don't, you know,

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Speaker 5: bring up something like this.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's done now, and I want to go straight

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Speaker 2: to Josh Colesruth joining us. He is a veteran criminal

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Speaker 2: defense attorney joining us out of this jurisdiction Arizona, former

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Speaker 2: federal prosecutor and founder of the Coles Ruth Law Offices. Josh,

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Speaker 2: thank you for being with us tonight. This is a crime.

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Speaker 2: Remember the last guy, Koalelo, He's already been charged under

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Speaker 2: eighteen USC.

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Speaker 1: Eight seventy five. He's got two felony charges.

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Speaker 2: For faking and extortion in exchange for knowledge about Nancy Guthrie.

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Speaker 2: I guess this guy wants to get in line behind him.

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Speaker 6: Well, you know, we don't know yet what this person

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Speaker 6: knows or doesn't know. But you know, what's interesting is that,

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Speaker 6: you know, it appears that at least law enforcement is

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Speaker 6: taking him seriously. They haven't said publicly that it's a hoax,

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Speaker 6: but there are some red flags. You know, you have

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Speaker 6: to wonder why, if he has his information, why he's

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Speaker 6: not calling Silent Witness, because Silent Witness now has a

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Speaker 6: reward or one hundred thousand dollars. So if you have

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Speaker 6: the information, there you go. You know, supposedly, you know,

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Speaker 6: there's information that he may not want to publicly give

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Speaker 6: his information because he doesn't want to be known as

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Speaker 6: a snitch. But you know, if you want the money,

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Speaker 6: you're going to have to take that chance. There's nothing

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Speaker 6: that he's said so far though, that makes me think

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Speaker 6: that he is truthful, is that he has veracity, that

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Speaker 6: he hasn't said anything specific that we don't already know yet.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we don't know that or not know that, but

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Speaker 2: you're right, it is being entertained. And the last Hoaster

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Speaker 2: was not called a Hoaxter until after he had already

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Speaker 2: been arrested. But you just reminded me of something. You

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Speaker 2: take or I take my witnesses as I find them.

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Speaker 2: I have put on the stand nuns, priests, virgins, dope lords,

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Speaker 2: drug addicts, alcoholics that were literally drunk at the time

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Speaker 2: they took the stand. There was nothing I could do

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Speaker 2: about that. You take your witness as you find them.

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Speaker 2: This guy may be a nut in the vernacular, but

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Speaker 2: what if he does know something.

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Speaker 1: Let's just go.

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Speaker 2: Out on that limb of credibility for just one moment

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Speaker 2: to discount him because of his behavior, the wording of

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Speaker 2: the missives, the way he's kind of haggling over the price,

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Speaker 2: the way he's taking credit for the doubling of the

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Speaker 2: reward from fifty to one hundred thousand. Yes, that's bizarre,

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Speaker 2: that's outlandish. But what if he does know something? And

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Speaker 2: something I always argue to jury's Josh Colesrude, who do

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Speaker 2: you think the defendant is hanging around with the folks

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Speaker 2: at the Vatican. No, they're not hanging out with the

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Speaker 2: Church of Deakins or the Rabbi. They're hanging out with

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Speaker 2: people just like them birds of a feather flock together.

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Speaker 2: So it would make sense that the actual purpse hanging

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Speaker 2: out with not the law and orderly type, but a.

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Speaker 1: Guy like this.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly, and you make some excellent points about you know,

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Speaker 6: why he might be telling the truth here, And regardless,

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Speaker 6: law enforcement has to either cross him out as a

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Speaker 6: legitimate lead or not. They need to investigate him for

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Speaker 6: a crime that is, you know, giving false information or

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Speaker 6: a false ransom note, so to speak. And if it

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Speaker 6: turns out that it's not a false ransom note and

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Speaker 6: they can't charge him with the same crimes they chose,

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Speaker 6: they charge the other Yahoo. I know, maybe he's legitimate.

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Speaker 6: And until they'll find out whether he is is legitimate

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Speaker 6: or not legitimate, they need to take.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Straight out to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us the boy

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Speaker 2: do we need to shrink? She is a renowned psychoanalyst,

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Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. You can see her now on

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Speaker 2: peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 2: dot com. Doctor Bethany, There's got to be psychological name

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Speaker 2: for this. He suggests the reward has been doubled from

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Speaker 2: fifty thousand to one hundred thousand because of him, that

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Speaker 2: it was just a move designed to quote discredit me.

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Speaker 7: What this reminds me of the media campaign for the

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Speaker 7: Cosmospolitan in Vegas. Their tagline is just the right amount

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Speaker 7: of wrong, which is what this guy is, just the

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Speaker 7: right amount of wrong. But you know, Nancy, what's fascinating

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Speaker 7: to me is I feel like I kind of have

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Speaker 7: a sense of the profile of this person, which could

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Speaker 7: be helpful. Whoever this person is, I'm pretty sure it's male.

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Speaker 7: The way he's bargaining, there's a shallow, immature quality. You know,

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Speaker 7: give me fifty K, but I won't spend it until

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Speaker 7: you know blah blah blah. He is very excited by

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Speaker 7: this crime. I'm guessing he's very preoccupied thinking about it

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Speaker 7: twenty four to seven, talking to friends about it. Yes,

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Speaker 7: he may tangentially know something about this crime. His thought

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Speaker 7: process and reasoning is very shallow. So what I would

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Speaker 7: wonder is there anybody who has a family member male,

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Speaker 7: a teenager, twenty something year old, who is constantly talking

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Speaker 7: about this crime, who's talking everybody's ear off about it.

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Speaker 7: I would wonder if the FBI puts out a request

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Speaker 7: for leads or tips towards somebody who keeps breaking that

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Speaker 7: they're going to make money this crime.

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Speaker 2: Well, hold on just a moment, Doctor Bethany Marshall straight

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Speaker 2: back out to Brian Fitzgibbons, who is joining us Director

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Speaker 2: Operations USPA Nationalwide Security. He leads a team of investigators

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Speaker 2: finding missing people all around the world at uspasecurity dot Com,

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Speaker 2: also former marine and Iraqi war vet. Okay, Brian, you

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Speaker 2: heard what Dr Bethany said. Let's track this guy down.

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Speaker 2: Why do we have time to track down a hoaxer?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how difficult it's going to

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Speaker 2: be to get the IP address. Probably not that hard.

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Speaker 2: That's iikers Billywick. But this guy is directly contacting TMZ,

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Speaker 2: so he can be tracked down. But do we want

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Speaker 2: to dilute law enforcement to chase him down? Isn't that

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Speaker 2: kind of chasing down a rabbit hole?

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Speaker 8: It's absolutely worth the effort here, Nancy, even if for

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Speaker 8: the simple purpose of eliminating Uh, this is authentic.

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Speaker 9: You saw with.

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Speaker 8: Derek Kalela, the Los Angeles person who was the hoaxter. Uh.

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Speaker 8: The FBI made an extensive post today. Uh, they're gonna

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Speaker 8: throw the book at him. And make an example out

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Speaker 8: of him. So if this is indeed a hoaxter, we

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Speaker 8: need to eliminate him and we need to make another

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Speaker 8: example out of him to uh, you know, really dissuade

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Speaker 8: people from doing this in the future as this unfolds.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean.

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Speaker 2: They're gonna throw the book at him and explain describe

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Speaker 2: what the FBI stated.

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Speaker 8: I think that the d o J and their statement

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Speaker 8: today about Kalela, they're not gonna buy his his information

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Speaker 8: that he just you know, wanted to see if they'd

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Speaker 8: answer his text or whatever. They're gonna They're gonna make

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Speaker 8: sure whatever charges they can bring against Derek Kilella for

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Speaker 8: hoaxing that ransom demand to the Guthrie family, they will

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Speaker 8: bring those charges heavily against him. And it's important here

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Speaker 8: with a case like this that has this amount of

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Speaker 8: media media attention, that we really do everything in our

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Speaker 8: power to dissuade that misinformation coming in.

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Speaker 2: If I could get the control room to run back

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Speaker 2: through the photos and show me the photo of Nancy

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Speaker 2: Guthrie with her little little black dog and she's looking

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Speaker 2: directly at the camera as all of us is so

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Speaker 2: called experts. Yeah, that one are talking about eighteen USC

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Speaker 2: eight seventy five, and the penalties and the minutia of

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Speaker 2: tracking a email or a text to TMZ look at her.

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Speaker 2: That's what's at stake right now, her her life.

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Speaker 1: Is she dead? Is she alive? Is she hurting? Is

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Speaker 1: she calling out for her children? Is she crying?

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Speaker 2: Is she in her room where the windows are blacked

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Speaker 2: out and she's in the dark. Have they given her

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Speaker 2: anything to eat? Has she had any medications? Do they

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Speaker 2: let her go to the bathroom? Can she stand up

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Speaker 2: and walk around? Just the thought? Is she crying right now?

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Speaker 2: Is she calling out for her children? This is about

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Speaker 2: a real person with a real family that is suffering

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Speaker 2: real pain right now.

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Speaker 1: And I'm glad that Gibbons reported that.

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Speaker 2: Z OJ is going to seek the max on this guy,

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Speaker 2: because that is a tick, a parasite sucking the blood

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Speaker 2: out of the family, and law enforcement trying to bring

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Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie home every day. Those are new up and

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Speaker 2: a new down. People's hopes were dashed when Peluzuelas was released.

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Speaker 2: Carlos Palozuela's had nothing to do with this incident. I

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Speaker 2: believe he was singled out because his phone popped up

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Speaker 2: in her Nancy's neighborhood so many times, at various times

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Speaker 2: of the day and night. He's a delivery person. I

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Speaker 2: think they isolated him because of that. They haven't said that,

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Speaker 2: but I am deducing that.

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Speaker 1: Ups downs.

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Speaker 2: Then he was released and we all woke up just

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Speaker 2: defeated because it meant we had gotten nowhere starting basically

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Speaker 2: all over. But her life is at stake, and isn't

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Speaker 2: it true? Scott Iker, formerly with the FBI that ransoms

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Speaker 2: for money kidnappings of this.

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Speaker 1: Ilk are very very rare.

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Speaker 5: They are very very rare. Only two or three that

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Speaker 5: I've worked in my whole career, and most of those

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Speaker 5: were drug Really someone owed money for drugs and they

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Speaker 5: kidnapped a family member, or kidnappings coming from Mexico, or

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Speaker 5: often money for ransom. Hey we'll give you your brother

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Speaker 5: back if you send us all this money. So in

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Speaker 5: this type of situation where we've got an elderly female,

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Speaker 5: not involved in drugs, not involved in anything other than

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Speaker 5: just living out her life, this is very unusual the

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Speaker 5: behalf of ransom situation.

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Speaker 2: I've had plenty of kidnaps, but not ransoms for money.

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Speaker 2: A joining me now, Joseph Scott Morgan Professor Forensics Jacksonville

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Speaker 2: State University, has an incredible criminal procedure and crime program,

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Speaker 2: author of Blood Beneath My Fate on Amazon. He's a

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Speaker 2: star of a hit podcast series, Body Bags with Joseph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. And not only that, he is a death

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Speaker 2: investigator that has investigated over ten thousand death sayings.

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Speaker 1: Of all sorts.

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Speaker 2: At this hour, we're having a DNA feed Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: I just want you to hear Dave Matt explain the

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Speaker 2: alleged feud between the FBI and Sheriff Nanos.

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Speaker 1: What happened, Dave?

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Speaker 4: We have the Sheriff Nanos has a lab in Florida

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Speaker 4: that has been used by the county in previous in

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Speaker 4: previous incidents, and apparently, from what we're told, Sheriff Nanos

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Speaker 4: sent DNA from the crime scene to this lab in

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Speaker 4: Florida rather than allowing the FBI to take it to

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Speaker 4: Quantico to test it there. And the dollar figure is

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Speaker 4: in the two hundred thousand dollars range that has been

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Speaker 4: paid in county funds to this lab in Florida to

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Speaker 4: do this DNA testing. And we're not even sure if

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Speaker 4: we're talking about DNA from inside the house that he

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Speaker 4: talked about that man has talked about earlier or on

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Speaker 4: the front porch.

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Speaker 2: Okay, DNA DNA whether it's from inside the house at first,

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Speaker 2: and I fitz Gibbons has an insight on this.

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Speaker 1: At first we.

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Speaker 2: Were told there was a glove and DNA in the house.

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Speaker 2: Now we're told there is no glove in the house.

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Speaker 2: We do know there were either one or two gloves

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Speaker 2: down on the side of the road. There you see

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Speaker 2: agents checking the side of the road and it paid off.

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Speaker 2: About one point five miles from Nancy Guthrie's home. Two

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Speaker 2: gloves were found, gloves that closely resemble the ones worn

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Speaker 2: by the perp. This video from our friends at Fox

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Speaker 2: News that said to Joseph Scott Morgan Joe Scott, touch DNA.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear your thoughts, because you know, touch

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Speaker 2: DNA can if they're in gloves. If it's on the

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Speaker 2: inside of gloves, that's one matter. If it's on the

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Speaker 2: outside of the gloves, that DNA is very likely compromised

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Speaker 2: in that it's mixed with other d things. The purpose

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Speaker 2: touched maybe Nancy Guthrie herself. This lab is going to

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Speaker 2: have to be able to differentiate isolate, differentiate the mixed DNA.

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Speaker 1: And then they're gonna have to run it through CODIS.

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Speaker 2: If he doesn't have a record, maybe his brother, maybe

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Speaker 2: his uncle, dad, cousin has a record. Then we're gonna

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Speaker 2: have to do genetic genealogy and you know where that goes.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it can turn out really well, like with

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Speaker 2: Joseph DiAngelo the Golden State Killer, but it better be

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Speaker 2: a really good lab and I have my suspicions about

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Speaker 2: which lab it is.

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Speaker 1: But you hit me with the DNA side of this.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, So for me, Nancy, it's all about It's all

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Speaker 9: about consistency and how you're handling this scene and how

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Speaker 9: you're processing potential evidence because just listen, they're saying they

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Speaker 9: sent DNA. You know they didn't. They sent they sent

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Speaker 9: samples that might contain DNA. It's not like this is

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Speaker 9: something that you can visualize. And to your point about

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Speaker 9: the fragility of this, you know, they're taking swabs from

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Speaker 9: various locations points of contact inside of this house, and

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Speaker 9: we'll just talk about the surfaces of the house and

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Speaker 9: if he is doing this, if he's touching these areas

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Speaker 9: with a bare hand, for instance, if he gets comfortable

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Speaker 9: in there. You know, they've talked about this forty five

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Speaker 9: minute or forty minute time period he may have been

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Speaker 9: in there. Did he get comfortable enough and then toss

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Speaker 9: the gloves outside as he's leaving. Well, you have to

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Speaker 9: take into account all of the other contact points in there.

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Speaker 9: Another piece to this, Nancy is I call it the

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Speaker 9: investigative funnel. So you've got a big funnel to the

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Speaker 9: top and you're putting data in there, and you're kind

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Speaker 9: of narrowing it down. Anybody else that's been in that

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Speaker 9: house has to be eliminated. That can be caretakers, family members, workers,

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Speaker 9: anybody else. And so when you're not on the same

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Speaker 9: sheet of music with all of the investigative agencies, it

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Speaker 9: gets very layered and compromised. I would feel much more

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Speaker 9: comfortable as a forensics guy if these samples had gone

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Speaker 9: directly to Quantico, where I know they know the drill

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Speaker 9: and how to process it, and they've got great partners

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Speaker 9: on the outside that they can source for things like

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Speaker 9: investigative genetic genealogy. And so I don't understand what the

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Speaker 9: problem is here, as you well know, because you were

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Speaker 9: you know, you work for the FEDS for a while

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Speaker 9: nancy the force that they can bring to bear in

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Speaker 9: a situation like this, it's like you're cutting your head

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Speaker 9: off to cure the headache. I don't understand it. It

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Speaker 9: makes no sense to me. The inside of that glove though,

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Speaker 9: if we talk about that. For anybody at home, think

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Speaker 9: about this. If you've ever even had on a pair

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Speaker 9: of winter gloves, what are your glove what do your

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Speaker 9: hands do? Well? They sweat right, and you might not

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Speaker 9: even be aware that they're sweating, that your hands are

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Speaker 9: sweating when you peel those gloves off. You're not talking

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Speaker 9: about to DNA. Then you're talking about a rich source

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Speaker 9: of DNA. It's not like a partial DNA strand you

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Speaker 9: know that has to be amplified and all this other stuff.

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Speaker 9: We're talking about sweat that could be inside of this

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Speaker 9: glove that's very very important here, and how it's handled,

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Speaker 9: how it's packaged on the front end, how it's delivered,

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Speaker 9: and then how the exam can be done. So you're

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Speaker 9: talking about two different types of potential DNA here.

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Speaker 2: Also, we were told that there was a glove inside

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Speaker 2: the home.

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Speaker 1: We now hear that being walked back.

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Speaker 2: But I firmly believe that there was DNA evidence inside.

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Speaker 2: All it takes show Scott is one here. Now another thing.

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Speaker 2: Oh guys, the video we were showing you earlier is

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Speaker 2: from ko ld Our Forensic Kold. There's also the aspect

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Speaker 2: of fibers. That's why we need that truck. We need

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Speaker 2: that gray truck if it's gray, white beige, because Nancy

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Speaker 2: Guthrie was bleeding profusely. I believe from the nose. There's

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Speaker 2: no way that they're going to be able to get

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Speaker 2: all that blood out of the truck. It's almost impossible

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Speaker 2: when you go in there with luminol or blue Star,

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Speaker 2: which is next to gen luminol. You'd have to have it,

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Speaker 2: I guess, cleaned by somebody from the crime.

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Speaker 1: Lab right to get it really clean.

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Speaker 2: But think about the potential fibers from his home. This

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Speaker 2: is how Wayne one of the ways Wayne Williams case,

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Speaker 2: a serial killer in Atlanta that killed young boys and teens,

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Speaker 2: how he was caught and my coworker Joe Drew Lait brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Led the charge on getting that evidence.

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Speaker 2: In for the first time in the world and.

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Speaker 1: It was admissible.

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Speaker 2: It was carpet fiber from Wayne Williams home, his parents'

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Speaker 2: home where he lived at that age, and fiber from

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Speaker 2: his vehicle. The fiber in the home.

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Speaker 1: I want to say was green, but it was shag that.

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Speaker 2: Was only made a certain time period and that color

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Speaker 2: and the microfibers, yes, very limited. It could be traced

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Speaker 2: back to their home and it was on the bodies. Also,

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Speaker 2: fibers from his car on the bodies. So there was

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Speaker 2: a plethora of DNA fiber evidence that could have been obtained.

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Speaker 2: I pray to God in Heaven the capture of that

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Speaker 2: evidence was not bungled.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I do too, And that's one of my biggest

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Speaker 9: worries with this. If we go back one thing I've

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Speaker 9: got to state here that's very troubling to me. You

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Speaker 9: remember the blood deposition that was on the entrance area

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Speaker 9: they you know that we saw and you alluded to

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Speaker 9: it a moment ago. And by the way, I concur

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Speaker 9: with what you're saying. You've got those rather large drops there,

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Speaker 9: that's free falling gravity drop deposition. But if you look,

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Speaker 9: if you look at the little bitty drop that are

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Speaker 9: in between in between those big drops, that's expert nancy.

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Speaker 9: So you've got this blowing out. So yeah, there could

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Speaker 9: be blood in a vehicle, and also discus Bery's hair

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Speaker 9: could be in there, and any clothing she's wearing is

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Speaker 9: unique to her, her fibers will be in there. So

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Speaker 9: this is a big piece of it. And this is

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Speaker 9: so delicate, Nancy, I cannot begin to emphasize how delicate

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Speaker 9: an operation is. When I saw a card stuck in

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Speaker 9: the door where the nestcam was from Adult Protective Services

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Speaker 9: when they had taken down that tape, initially, how in

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Speaker 9: the hell does that happen? How does somebody get access

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Speaker 9: in there and they put a card up there. You

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Speaker 9: can see it where the nest cam was mounted. I'm thinking,

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Speaker 9: this is how we're starting now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we investigated that, and I know where you're going.

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Speaker 2: It's not so much who's on the card, it's the

435
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: fact that somebody could get to that crime scene and.

436
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 1: Put a card on the door.

437
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: So Dave Mack, without revealing the woman's name, didn't we

438
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 2: determine that she worked with elder care and was probably

439
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 2: like the equivalent of a visiting nurse or a home

440
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: health worker.

441
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 4: It was it was just a business card from something

442
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 4: along those lines. Yeah, and just dropped off as a marker.

443
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 4: I guess, you know.

444
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: So Dave mac if you could capsulize for US Nanos

445
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 2: Sheriff Nanos's explanation of why he sent the DNA.

446
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: Instead of the Quantico. He's working with the fans. They're

447
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: right there trying to help. They're the ones that got

448
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: the images off the front porch. Instead of using Quantico.

449
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 2: For Pete's sake, he used a private lab, which we

450
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: think to be a Labs International in Florida.

451
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: Why and a.

452
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 4: Nutshell, here's a direct quote from him. Actually, the FBI

453
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 4: just wanted to send the one or two they found

454
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 4: talking about gloves found by the crime scene closest to

455
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 4: it mile mile and a half. I said, no, why

456
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 4: do that. Let's just send them all to where all

457
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,479
Speaker 4: the DNA exists, all the profiles and the markers exist

458
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 4: in Florida. And he says they agreed. So he's saying

459
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 4: that the FBI was in agreement with him Nanos on

460
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 4: sending the information to Florida.

461
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: Okay, straight back out to Brian thats Gibbons joining US

462
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: direct to operations USPA Nationwide Security.

463
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: First, we were told a glove in the house. Now

464
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: we're told no glove in the house. Why the walk back?

465
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, this has been a bit of a dumpster fire

466
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 8: from a PR perspective. You know, we're told initially glove's

467
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 8: been found in the house. It's being sent to Florida.

468
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 8: Then Sheriff Nanos came out and said, we've found a

469
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 8: number of gloves in the course of this investigation, and

470
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 8: we don't know if any of them are worth anything

471
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 8: or connected to the case. And now this afternoon he

472
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 8: had an extensive conversation with a reporter from Fox News

473
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 8: where he said that no gloves were found in the

474
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 8: house and he doesn't know where this came. We've had

475
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 8: some seriously conflicting information about.

476
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: The crime stores with Nancy Grace.

477
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: You know what, whether there's a feud or no feud,

478
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: what we need is teamwork. And I'm sure the Guthrie

479
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: family doesn't want to hear this. One's not getting along

480
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: with that one. Nanny Nanny Boo boo. I said this,

481
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: You said that nobody cares. Just send it to the

482
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: best law possible because this DNA is very highly integrated

483
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: with other DNA, highly likely integrated with other DNA if

484
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: we get anything off those gloves.

485
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: To start with. And I'll tell you another thing. When

486
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: Nanos says things like it may not even be connected.

487
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: Why would you say that, as if it doesn't matter

488
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: where I send it, It may not even be relevant.

489
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: That the argument is neat. That does not instill confidence, Fitzgibbons.

490
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 8: No, not at all, And I mean, hey, any article

491
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 8: found on a crime scene may not be connected to

492
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 8: the crime itself, right, That's that's why we go through

493
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 8: this process, this forensic process, to investigate and determine that.

494
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 2: Or on the other hand, Forsgibbons, it may it may

495
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: be connected. Also in the last hours, posted on social

496
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: is a very disturbing video.

497
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: Let's see the video. Please blur the face.

498
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: This is a guy very close to on the top.

499
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: That's what I want to see.

500
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:16,239
Speaker 2: This guy was posted by USA News HQ on X

501
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: and I'm posted it looks very similar to the porch

502
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: guy outside Nancy Guthrie's home. This guy is in no

503
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 2: way a POI, person of interest or a suspect. The

504
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: point is what time was he out and about in

505
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: the neighborhood, Dave mac on somebody's porch fiddling with the

506
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: door cam.

507
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 4: It was about five o'clock in the morning, Nancy, and

508
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 4: it was on that particular video he shot on January twenty.

509
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 2: Third, just about a week before Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped,

510
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: fiddling with the door cam. Now this guy may very

511
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: well even live there. My point is is, please everyone

512
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: within that two mile circumference, that two mile radius, please

513
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: check your videos, check your door cams, everything you've got.

514
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: That was from the USA News HQ on X and

515
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: that is in fact what authorities are asking at this hour.

516
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: What do you make of that, Josh Coles rude that

517
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: they are asking everyone within a two mile radius to

518
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: check video, specifically for a gray truck.

519
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I like that they posted this video

520
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,479
Speaker 6: of this new person, even though he may not have

521
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 6: anything to do with it, because I think it encourages

522
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 6: other people to do the same thing. And you know,

523
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 6: the FBI and the Sheriff's office, you know, they believe

524
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 6: at least that maybe the white van had been casing

525
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 6: the area, much similar to the Coburger case, where Coburger

526
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 6: was case seeing, you know, the multi story house that

527
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 6: he later broke into. And so you know, hopefully, you know,

528
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 6: people are listening to the show and they start doing

529
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 6: what the Sheriff's office is asking for.

530
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany Marshall let's just proceed with the belief that

531
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Okay, Who in the right

532
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: mind could keep an eighty four year old woman imprisoned

533
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: in a bedroom or an apartment or who knows, a farmhouse,

534
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: a seller, a basement. Those are the things that Savannah

535
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: and her siblings, it's their nightmares where his mom. But

536
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: what type of mentality, what person, what man can.

537
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 7: Do that somebody who's obsessed with her because they see

538
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 7: her as a mark, they see her as somebody that

539
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 7: they are going to profit off of, and that delights them.

540
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 7: That makes her very exciting and debating to them and Nancy.

541
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 7: A couple of things that you just brought out on

542
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 7: this show. The fact that the blood is from the nose,

543
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 7: nose doplets potentially, and that it stops on the doorstep

544
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 7: makes me so sad because that means somebody stemmed the

545
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 7: bleeding by putting their hand over her face. That's the

546
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 7: kind of person who's holding miss Guthrie. And the other thing,

547
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,479
Speaker 7: when I see some guy fiddling with a camera at

548
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 7: five am in a neighborhood, probably where there are many seniors,

549
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 7: it makes me wonder, is there some slim possibility that

550
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 7: this was not targeted, that somebody was going from doorstep

551
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 7: to doorstep trying to find somebody that they could abduct,

552
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 7: kidnap something like this. It just opens up more questions

553
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,239
Speaker 7: to me rather than resolving them.

554
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: You know, you said something a bat that and it

555
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 2: made me think just in that moment, and I'm sure

556
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: you can verbalize this better than me. But whoever's got

557
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: Missus Guthrie, She's not even real to them. They're thinking

558
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: about potentially Savannah and getting her money, and Missus Guthrie

559
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: is just like a pawn, a thing to them for

560
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 2: them to get that money.

561
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,720
Speaker 7: However, I'll tell you something, Nancy, she may be a pawn,

562
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 7: she may be a thing, but they've been thinking about

563
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 7: her for a long long time. Reminds me of a

564
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 7: patient who came in and could not stop talking about

565
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 7: his grandma. Obsessed about his grandma, and I finally realized

566
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 7: he was obsessed with her because he was trying to

567
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 7: drain her bank account. So there was a lot of

568
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 7: talking about it before I finally realized that he was

569
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 7: actually using the therapy to commit a crime. Obviously I

570
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 7: stopped seeing him. So there's somebody in some household out

571
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 7: there who has a father, a brother, a son, somebody

572
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 7: in their lives who has been talking about Nancy Guthrie

573
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 7: for a long long time. That could be a very

574
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 7: important behavioral clue in terms of finding the perpetrator.

575
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: What else should people be looking for? Because I believe

576
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: a case like this could be correct by a girlfriend,

577
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 2: a wife, a sister, a mother, a friend, a neighbor

578
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: that realizes something is off.

579
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 7: Oh well, promises of wealth, I'm going to take you

580
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 7: on a big trip. I'm going to buy you a

581
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 7: new car, our ship is coming in preoccupation with the news,

582
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 7: wanting to talk about all the little tidbits that have

583
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 7: come out. I don't think that what we should or

584
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 7: family members should be watching for as somebody who's actually

585
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 7: avoiding talking about this, but somebody who is quite captivated

586
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 7: by it, because you know, when you have a mark,

587
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 7: when you're a perpetrator and you're going to benefit financially

588
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 7: from something, you want to talk about it all the time.

589
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 7: So I think it's going to be in the conversations

590
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 7: people are hearing in their households. Think about if you're

591
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 7: sitting around the dinner table with your family, all of

592
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 7: a sudden, there's one family member that says, oh, let's

593
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 7: talk about the Guthrie case. What do you think about

594
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 7: older people living alone?

595
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: Oh?

596
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 7: Do you think that they're Do you think the ransom

597
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 7: is going to be paid? Do you think do you

598
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 7: think Nancy's still alive? At excited conference conversation not sad,

599
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 7: excited conversation. That's what family members, girlfriends, wives, children, whatever,

600
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 7: that's what they need to be watching out for.

601
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting, doctor Bethany, because every time I

602
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 2: leave the studio, I'm asked, do you think Nancy Guthrie

603
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: is still alive? And similar questions, and every time the

604
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: person is seems genuinely upset. They're not excited, like what's

605
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 2: the latest. It's not like that at all.

606
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: They're a guest and what has happened.

607
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: They all have a mother or a grandmother, many of

608
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: them that live with them or that are living alone,

609
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: and this strikes fear in their heart. It's really interesting

610
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,720
Speaker 2: the way you delineated between being excited and almost yiddy

611
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: about it as opposed to being upset and concerned about it.

612
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 7: Bethany, that is absolutely right, and that goes to the

613
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 7: third ransom note. Right, is that in this third ransom note,

614
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 7: this person who writes it or sends it does not

615
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 7: seem to show any concern about Nancy Guthrie. It's kind

616
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 7: of all about himself. So also another thing to listen

617
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 7: for in conversations around the table or on a date

618
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 7: or whatever, is a person talking about how someone could

619
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 7: benefit from adducting an older person, or they're talking about

620
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 7: Nancy herself and how sad this is, and is she

621
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 7: still alive and how is the family doing. If there

622
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 7: is empathy in the conversation, that's not a perpetrator. If

623
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 7: there's lack of empathy, then that is a possible suspect.

624
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything regarding Nancy

625
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 2: Guthrie's disappearance, please dial toll free eight hundred two two

626
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: five five three two four eight hundred two two five

627
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,879
Speaker 2: five three two four or five two zero eight eight

628
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 2: two seven four six three if you wish to remain anonymous.

629
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 2: Five two zero eight eight two seven four six three.

630
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 1: Good night friend,