1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,680
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

2
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:06,400
Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

3
00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,280
Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

5
00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,800
Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

6
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,720
Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

7
00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:19,479
Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

8
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,440
Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

9
00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:29,280
Speaker 2: Hello, Welcome to a week it happened here. This is Garrison.

10
00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 2: We're going to be doing a little bit of an

11
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,480
Speaker 2: update on some of the things that have been happening

12
00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,440
Speaker 2: in Atlanta, Georgia the past few weeks in relation to

13
00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,840
Speaker 2: the Stop Cop City movement with me today to help

14
00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 2: go through the many, many happenings of the past of

15
00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 2: the past few weeks, is a Matt from the Atlantic

16
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 2: Community Press Collective.

17
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,440
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, my friend, good to see you.

18
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 2: Yes, last time, last time we talked on the show,

19
00:00:55,280 --> 00:01:00,280
Speaker 2: it was during our very very critically acclaimed comedy episode,

20
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:06,040
Speaker 2: So nice to highlight I lighted the season. I'm glad

21
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 2: you approve. As someone who was on the episode.

22
00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,959
Speaker 3: I might have been like the target audience for that, but.

23
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was like there was like four jokes that

24
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,520
Speaker 2: only like three people get. But that's the right. So

25
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 2: this is going to be a bit of a bit

26
00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,399
Speaker 2: of a looser episode because people are preparing for the

27
00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 2: Week of Action. Uh, there's a lot of a lot

28
00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: of things in play. It's kind of a lot of

29
00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:33,040
Speaker 2: stuff still up in the air. So I don't I

30
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,839
Speaker 2: don't have time to put something super super superscripted together,

31
00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:38,880
Speaker 2: but many things have happened that are worth talking about,

32
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,680
Speaker 2: especially before the Week of Action. I guess would the

33
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:44,679
Speaker 2: first thing on the docket be to kind of go

34
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:49,280
Speaker 2: over the stuff regarding the extra funding that that the

35
00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,320
Speaker 2: city seems to be uh be giving towards the Copsity project,

36
00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,720
Speaker 2: even beyond like the thirty three million dollars that was

37
00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 2: the that was the target about the city council vote

38
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:03,720
Speaker 2: a few a few days ago. But there's a whole

39
00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 2: bunch of extra extra money floating around, as discovered by

40
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,280
Speaker 2: you guys at the Atlantic Atlantic Community Press Collective and

41
00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,160
Speaker 2: then who had had their turnalism pretty margital in by

42
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:16,120
Speaker 2: every other outlet.

43
00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 3: They put our name, they put our name in there,

44
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 3: and you know, then you get paid, and you get

45
00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,400
Speaker 3: paid in the spotlight. Right, that's how that worked.

46
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,400
Speaker 2: I'm only paying you an exposure for these episodes exactly,

47
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,640
Speaker 2: which is which is which isn't true FAI.

48
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 3: But anyway, so yeah, okay, So going back to twenty

49
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 3: twenty one, this conversation started a couple of months after

50
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,680
Speaker 3: the lease legislation was stuck. Back then, it was a

51
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,920
Speaker 3: conversation about like a fifty five million dollars funding package

52
00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:59,080
Speaker 3: between the Atlanta Police Foundation and keep operating off there

53
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 3: at the time, John Kee. So that conversation has more

54
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,600
Speaker 3: opked over the last two years, but that the key

55
00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,960
Speaker 3: part of it was the extra money was going to

56
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:12,400
Speaker 3: come from this lease back agreement. So originally it was

57
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:14,920
Speaker 3: going to be a twenty year, one million dollar a year.

58
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 3: We found out that that is actually a thirty year,

59
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,840
Speaker 3: one point two million dollars a year paid for thirty

60
00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,840
Speaker 3: six million dollars going to the Atlanta Police Foundation. And

61
00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,280
Speaker 3: part of what they were what they had talked about

62
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,679
Speaker 3: using it for in twenty twenty one, was to pay

63
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,960
Speaker 3: down this twenty million dollar loan construction loan that the

64
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,320
Speaker 3: Atlanta Police Foundation was planning on taking out to build

65
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,040
Speaker 3: the facility. So when they were talking about that, like

66
00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:49,560
Speaker 3: sixty million dollar philanthropic donation. They really they meant or

67
00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,720
Speaker 3: twenty of that was going to come from from a

68
00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,720
Speaker 3: loan that the city was going to pay back so immediately.

69
00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 3: Like these numbers were stewed from the get go and

70
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,240
Speaker 3: have been misleading for the last year and a half.

71
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 2: And I mean part of the original plans for the

72
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 2: Copsity project and people are unaware included what like thirty

73
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 2: million dollars of public funds being contributed and the other

74
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,000
Speaker 2: sixty million for the first phase was supposed to come

75
00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 2: via like private funds, with the Land Police Findation doing

76
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:27,600
Speaker 2: like fundraising via all their big corporate backers. And then

77
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,720
Speaker 2: what's happened in the past few months of them trying

78
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,719
Speaker 2: to trying to downscale some of the more expensive parts

79
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,480
Speaker 2: of the plan and like cutting some of the fad

80
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,599
Speaker 2: in terms of like the stables aren't going to be

81
00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: the same spot that they wanted there to be stables,

82
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 2: and other small kind of money saving cuts, and then

83
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,160
Speaker 2: all this increase in the amount of the project that's

84
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,239
Speaker 2: just being funded by taxpayers. It seems like the APS

85
00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,240
Speaker 2: been not as successful and being able to fund their

86
00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 2: project privately as they initially hoped. That's at least my

87
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,800
Speaker 2: read from what's from what's going on here.

88
00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,440
Speaker 3: So maybe not from what they originally hoped, but from

89
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 3: what they originally show us or told us that they

90
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,840
Speaker 3: were going to do. According to the chief financial operator

91
00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,320
Speaker 3: of the City of Atlanta, Mohammed Bala, he said that

92
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,279
Speaker 3: the Atlantic Police Foundation has raised thirty three point four

93
00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 3: million dollars in film graphic funds for this which their

94
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 3: goal apparently this whole time was only thirty million dollars

95
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 3: in actual funds from corporations and film graphic organizations.

96
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,520
Speaker 2: Including the streamer Destiny, who've donated I think twenty thousand

97
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,479
Speaker 2: dollars to the Atlantic Philly Station, which is a fight,

98
00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 2: which is a reference to all of you Internet cells

99
00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,359
Speaker 2: out there who are also we are also cursed with

100
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 2: this knowledge.

101
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

102
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,400
Speaker 3: So the other interesting thing is is originally ten million

103
00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,880
Speaker 3: dollars it was supposed to come in new market credits,

104
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,799
Speaker 3: and we're getting like really into the.

105
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is finances, and I'm sorry as soon as

106
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,240
Speaker 2: you said new market tax credits part of my braid

107
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 2: just like shut off but continue continue.

108
00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,919
Speaker 3: Like thirty thousand foot overview that money is supposed to

109
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 3: go to like revitalizing impoverished or like underserved communities. It's

110
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,359
Speaker 3: supposed to go to like businesses that want to like

111
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,159
Speaker 3: open grocery stores and food deserts and things like that.

112
00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 3: So it's not ten million dollars anymore now it's five

113
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 3: million dollars. But it's still going to build a police

114
00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 3: training center and you know, predominantly black neighborhood that it's

115
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:51,760
Speaker 3: under the average monthly income. So things got twisted here

116
00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:56,480
Speaker 3: that this doesn't seem like a revitalization project that that

117
00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,040
Speaker 3: is supposed to improve the lives of the neighbors around it.

118
00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,799
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's it seems like the the the amount

119
00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,080
Speaker 2: of funding that they actually are going to end up

120
00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,679
Speaker 2: receiving from public funds is ballooned to be much bigger

121
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,800
Speaker 2: than they initially promised. And then project was initially sold on,

122
00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 2: which is just another another another thing in the long

123
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,040
Speaker 2: line of of of APF moments.

124
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 3: So this entire time, the deputy Chief Operating Officer for

125
00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 3: the City of Atlanta, la Chandra Burks. She has been

126
00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,520
Speaker 3: playing quarterback for the Finance conversation, and she was part

127
00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:40,680
Speaker 3: of the Finance Conversation the way back and plain so

128
00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 3: somebody she's she's in the mayor's cabinet and like she's

129
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 3: privy to these conversations. So the entire time like this

130
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,200
Speaker 3: is happening, Andre Dickens is still like out in the

131
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 3: press repeating this thirty million dollar number, like tell the

132
00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 3: to Rose Scott, who's basically our our NPR like person

133
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 3: here detel it to the a jac the paper of record,

134
00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 3: and says that it's gonna be thirty million dollars if

135
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,600
Speaker 3: it goes over, it's gonna it's gonna come out of

136
00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,800
Speaker 3: the Atlanta Police aboutation. And then of course you know

137
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 3: his his cabinet is having conversations about way more money.

138
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,320
Speaker 2: This entire well, do you know who else cares a

139
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,120
Speaker 2: lot about money?

140
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,840
Speaker 3: The products and services services, The products and services.

141
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 2: The products services really really do want your money. And

142
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 2: now also the the Sophie is poking me to tell

143
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,240
Speaker 2: you the apthel premium subscription option also cares a lot

144
00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,040
Speaker 2: about your money. Uh, and Android version launching shortly anyway,

145
00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,480
Speaker 2: here's the ads. Okay, we are back. We're gonna talk

146
00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:48,080
Speaker 2: about another another another good uh. Staying on the topic

147
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,240
Speaker 2: of of of stealing your money and using it for purposes,

148
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,680
Speaker 2: and it's probably not very good. Let's talk about let's

149
00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,319
Speaker 2: talk about the the the two Atlanta City Council meetings

150
00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,680
Speaker 2: that happened. One was during late May, right, that was

151
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:03,920
Speaker 2: the first one with public comment. That was like people

152
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 2: were being public comment for like seven hours. That lasted

153
00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:09,800
Speaker 2: quite a while. It was it was a pretty pretty

154
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,839
Speaker 2: long day. And then on the then during the meeting

155
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 2: on June fifth was even longer.

156
00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 5: Like how.

157
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 2: Late were you at city Council on the June on

158
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:20,480
Speaker 2: June fifth?

159
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:22,000
Speaker 6: All?

160
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 3: Right, Well, on May fifteenth, the first city Council meeting

161
00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 3: one where we kind of like we're like, hey, this

162
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 3: this is going to come up for vote, so and

163
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,680
Speaker 3: then organizers you know, got everyone to show up. Yeah,

164
00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 3: so about seven and a half hours of public comments

165
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,280
Speaker 3: that night city Council meeting ended up like like eleven o'clock.

166
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 3: And then there was a meeting that the Finance Executive

167
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,320
Speaker 3: Committee meeting in between that had about two hours of

168
00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,120
Speaker 3: public comment, which for a subcommittee meeting is a lot. Uh.

169
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,199
Speaker 3: And then all of that, every like record was blown

170
00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 3: out of the water on June fifth, where we had

171
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,000
Speaker 3: just just over fourteen hours of public comment that includes

172
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,920
Speaker 3: like breaks for disruption and like a ten minute break

173
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,560
Speaker 3: that the City Council took and then a lot of

174
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,400
Speaker 3: arguing between Doug Ship and the city couple of president

175
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,760
Speaker 3: trying to help people down. But you know, overall it

176
00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 3: was fourteen and a half hours of just public comment,

177
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,000
Speaker 3: which is the largest public in person public comment session

178
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:32,079
Speaker 3: that is in modern history. Yeah, and it was basically unanimous.

179
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 3: There were four speakers who got up pretty early who

180
00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 3: were in favor of the training center, and then everyone

181
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,559
Speaker 3: else was anti cop city.

182
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. Did I remember remember seeing some things about like

183
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 2: APF police departments trying to like trying to push people

184
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,240
Speaker 2: through to give public comment.

185
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there was a rumor going around that the

186
00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,680
Speaker 3: Atlantic Police Foundation and the Mayor's office were trying to

187
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 3: get fifty people. There was like this number. It was

188
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:06,000
Speaker 3: like fifty people. I never saw anything to back up,

189
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 3: but okay, they did seem like the four people who

190
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 3: showed up were kind of coordinated, and you know, like

191
00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 3: one of them brought their kids, which the stop top

192
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,360
Speaker 3: city side does the same thing. So it did seem

193
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 3: to be some like intentional parallels.

194
00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,560
Speaker 2: But what was not parallel was just the sheer number

195
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,000
Speaker 2: of people on the different sides.

196
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 3: It was I don't think anybody who's in favor of

197
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,440
Speaker 3: the facility is like going to wait fourteen hours to

198
00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,920
Speaker 3: talk for two minutes. Yeah, that's just not going to happen.

199
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 3: And you know, the Atlanta Police Foundation hasn't shown up

200
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,680
Speaker 3: to defend the facility in since twenty twenty one, and

201
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 3: like they're the most invested.

202
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,400
Speaker 2: Yeah it is. It is striking the amount of which

203
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,240
Speaker 2: their work on it is just so much like backdoor lobbying,

204
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,840
Speaker 2: and they really have never had to defend the project

205
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,440
Speaker 2: like publicly and openly. It's it's all. It's all just

206
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,319
Speaker 2: these these these back backer meetings between city council members,

207
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,439
Speaker 2: between people, people in the Air's office, between people and

208
00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:11,240
Speaker 2: the police department.

209
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, by the Police Foundation lobbyist was actually running around

210
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:17,839
Speaker 3: City Hall on juth it.

211
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, not surprising. So I feel like most if people

212
00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,840
Speaker 2: are online, they probably heard the result of the vote

213
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,200
Speaker 2: after fourteen hours of public common which was almost like

214
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,680
Speaker 2: unanimously against the facility. What was it of four to eleven?

215
00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, four votes against eleven in favor.

216
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 2: So they they passed the funding package, allocating at least

217
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,960
Speaker 2: the thirty three million plus the future loans.

218
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 3: The least back agreement.

219
00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:50,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, the the.

220
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,760
Speaker 3: Thirty one million plus the least back. Okay, we're not

221
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 3: going to get more deep than.

222
00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 2: That, Okay, but yes, it was it was like what

223
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,240
Speaker 2: what time was? That was like four am? At thirty Jesus,

224
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:09,480
Speaker 2: So I got there.

225
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 3: There was a Young Democrats like thing against There was

226
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 3: a press conference with the Young Democrats of the already

227
00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 3: coming out against cup City at eight am. So I

228
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,360
Speaker 3: was there at seven thirty. I left City Hall at

229
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:21,360
Speaker 3: six thirty.

230
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:22,760
Speaker 2: That was.

231
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:25,280
Speaker 3: The wildest game.

232
00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:30,719
Speaker 2: So so, after probably the longest city council meeting day

233
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:31,559
Speaker 2: in quite a while.

234
00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,560
Speaker 3: They in history, in history, sure in history, they single day.

235
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 2: They voted to approve the funding, which I mean, I

236
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,520
Speaker 2: don't know, I think I wasn't I was not surprised.

237
00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,120
Speaker 2: I wasn't surprised, but I was disappointed as as a

238
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,640
Speaker 2: as a as a parent would say.

239
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,720
Speaker 3: I want to point out a couple of things that

240
00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 3: that they did in preparation, So I think city Council

241
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,040
Speaker 3: was prepared for like an action Orgler's veto, and they

242
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,959
Speaker 3: had to moves to kind of neutralize them. The first

243
00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,920
Speaker 3: is they moved the actual vote on this to the

244
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 3: very last thing. So the vote on the funding came

245
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,880
Speaker 3: at the end of the meeting, so if you know,

246
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 3: there was an attempt to stop the vote itself, it

247
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 3: wouldn't have affected any city business before that. And then

248
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,560
Speaker 3: they also prepared a committee room so that if you know,

249
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 3: things got rowdy or there was some sort of direct

250
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,200
Speaker 3: action in the chambers itself, they were just going to

251
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 3: take the council and physically move them to a different

252
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 3: room and let people continue to demonstrate in city Council.

253
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 3: So I think they were they they made some wise

254
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,400
Speaker 3: moves on their end to prepare.

255
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've loaded the chamber with the cops before

256
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,120
Speaker 2: the vote. I know, back like during the afternoon they

257
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 2: were setting up kind of barricades and staging around City Hall.

258
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 2: I mean, it just seemed to be a lot of

259
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:05,240
Speaker 2: like erratic, uretic stuff happening around, did not I mean, yeah,

260
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,840
Speaker 2: I mean I was unsure what was going to happen myself.

261
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,320
Speaker 2: I didn't know how how it would play out, what

262
00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 2: what tax people will try to employ. It seemed like

263
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 2: people mostly tried to kind of like go buy the

264
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,840
Speaker 2: book there and see how far that would get. And

265
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 2: then if the result was like what we got, then

266
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 2: other other things will happen in these next few months,

267
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:28,760
Speaker 2: especially with a week of action coming up. So, yeah,

268
00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,320
Speaker 2: do you think people on that like what did people

269
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,800
Speaker 2: on the ground think, Like, did did they think that

270
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,760
Speaker 2: that the vote would go through? And do they think

271
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,120
Speaker 2: the vote would be stopped? I met, I am, I

272
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,320
Speaker 2: am kind of it's it's been, it's been. It's been

273
00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,880
Speaker 2: a little little over a month since I've been in Atlanta,

274
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,480
Speaker 2: and I think that the mood on the ground fluctuates

275
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,480
Speaker 2: so quickly often.

276
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think it's, you know, kind of dependent

277
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 3: upon which segment of the movement we're talking about. There's

278
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,600
Speaker 3: there's obviously full sections of the movement that at are

279
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 3: opposed to electoralism. They still showed up, like they still

280
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,760
Speaker 3: you know, came and gave public comment, and I feel

281
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 3: like they they didn't expect that this would go any

282
00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 3: other way. There's more like electorally plugged in groups that there.

283
00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 3: You know, there was a slim chance of this thing

284
00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,720
Speaker 3: getting sent back to committee, and that was the closest

285
00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 3: that this had to not going through city council. You know.

286
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,440
Speaker 3: The kind of the whip count that that we learned

287
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,960
Speaker 3: was if it if it came to a straight up

288
00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 3: or downvote, it was always going to go through. It's

289
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,040
Speaker 3: never the numbers to do anything else. Yeah, So there

290
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,960
Speaker 3: was some lobbying happening behind the scenes that uh, with

291
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 3: student organizers and various other organizers who are more prone

292
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,680
Speaker 3: to having these these discussions, especially with elected officials. So

293
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,520
Speaker 3: there was bobbying for the tickets sent back to community

294
00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,720
Speaker 3: to committe where it would be I will and hopefully

295
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 3: delay the actual funding and mess up if he had

296
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:12,960
Speaker 3: slumming mechanism. But that didn't happen. So there were people

297
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,119
Speaker 3: who were hopeful, Like even I was, you know, I

298
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,200
Speaker 3: said that this was the closest electorally that we'd ever

299
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,679
Speaker 3: come to stopping it. I you know, just kind of

300
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,800
Speaker 3: knowing how the whip count changed over the course of

301
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,560
Speaker 3: like forty eight hours. It got close and then then

302
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 3: it got taken away. Every Dickens called city council members

303
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,800
Speaker 3: into his office Monday morning and started feeling them off.

304
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, and this was never going to

305
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 2: be the end of the movement by any means. There

306
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,000
Speaker 2: was already plans for things afterwards, like the Week of

307
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,359
Speaker 2: Action at the end of June. Here and I guess

308
00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,240
Speaker 2: we can we can talk about how some of the

309
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 2: ways the movement might continue going forward after these these

310
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,359
Speaker 2: these messages from our our lovely sponsors who endorse everything

311
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,359
Speaker 2: we're saying. Thank you, Ronald Reagan. I know you agree

312
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: with me on this, so we're back. Ghost was crazy, Yeah,

313
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 2: I mean most people don't. So as if you're part

314
00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 2: of like gold, yeah, exactly, if you're part of the

315
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 2: ghost on the community, there is there is a few

316
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,879
Speaker 2: types of ghosts who actually really like bargaining material possessions.

317
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,199
Speaker 2: If they're able to give away enough of their stuff,

318
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,200
Speaker 2: their souls able to actually transcend to the next level

319
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 2: and go to a more safe, like a more RESTful place.

320
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,120
Speaker 2: So these are people who've been too materially driven on Earth.

321
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,919
Speaker 2: Their soul gets trapped in that, so they have to

322
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: have to make sure that they get rid of their

323
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,800
Speaker 2: gold in orders to them to go to their next place,

324
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:48,199
Speaker 2: whether that's like that's like a safer version of Limbo, Paradise, heaven, hell, whatever.

325
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:49,679
Speaker 2: So yeah, I wait for you.

326
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,199
Speaker 3: To move here so I can learn more about this.

327
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,800
Speaker 2: I was just making all of that up on the fly.

328
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what's gonna happen next. Obviously, there's

329
00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,399
Speaker 2: a week of backtion planned for June twenty fourth to

330
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:06,680
Speaker 2: July first, which is going to be a very hot week.

331
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:12,880
Speaker 2: So there's that, to my understanding, in Trench we Creek,

332
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 2: Trenchman Creek Park is still closed, correct, So in Trench Creek.

333
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:17,479
Speaker 3: Park is still closed.

334
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:18,200
Speaker 4: There is.

335
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 3: There is a motion or there's some legislation in the

336
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 3: the Caab County Border Commissioners that is supposed to come

337
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 3: up again on Tuesday. The CEO's office asked for like

338
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,520
Speaker 3: thirty days to finish cleaning up the park, so the

339
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 3: thirty days will expire Monday, and then there's a Border

340
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,360
Speaker 3: Commissioners meeting on Tuesday. After that, they hopefully the park

341
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 3: is open, but we'll see.

342
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 2: So it may or may not be open. That is

343
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:52,760
Speaker 2: still park that is still to be determined. I've heard

344
00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,119
Speaker 2: there will be another music festival of some sort, not

345
00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,880
Speaker 2: many details as of the time of recording, so we

346
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: knew that was gonna happen. I talked about this during

347
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: during the Week of Action retrospective episode, which honestly is

348
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,000
Speaker 2: still pretty applicable here in terms of the amount of

349
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,400
Speaker 2: destruction that's happened in the forest and how people are

350
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,920
Speaker 2: thinking about ways to continue resistance in the face of

351
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 2: not again I'm against the binary of like victory and defeat.

352
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,160
Speaker 2: I think that's not a useful way of looking at

353
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 2: this situation at this point. But you're, you're, you're, they're

354
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 2: kind of looking down like the barrel of something now,

355
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 2: being like a lot of the land's been cleared, a

356
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,600
Speaker 2: lot of the trees have been cut. Preconstruction is ongoing,

357
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 2: Construction is scheduled for this summer. They just got approved

358
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,680
Speaker 2: for all the city funding right Like, things are in motion.

359
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: So the ways that people are going to choose to

360
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 2: resist now might be different in the ways that they

361
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,400
Speaker 2: chose to resist like a year or two ago, because

362
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,800
Speaker 2: it's just a very different, very different situation. There's a

363
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 2: different risk level, there's a lot of more surveillance around

364
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: the forest, there's a lot more surveillance outside the forest.

365
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 2: It's just it's just a very different scenario. So I

366
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 2: think if the retrospective episode still contains a few things

367
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: about how how systance might might take forms during these

368
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: next few weeks. But there's this this this other thing

369
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 2: that came up after the city council meeting, which is

370
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,879
Speaker 2: the referendum that some people are planning. Uh, do you

371
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: want to go over a little bit of those details.

372
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so a lot of people or I've seen kind

373
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 3: of on Twitter where a lot of people are like, oh,

374
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,199
Speaker 3: the referendum is just coming out and rise to the

375
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 3: city council vote, and like, no, this has been in

376
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,600
Speaker 3: the works for a little while. Okay, to my knowledge,

377
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,919
Speaker 3: it dates I mean, I know it dates back to

378
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 3: before even the funding question was was in place, So

379
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,120
Speaker 3: it's been in the works for a minute. And then

380
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 3: they decided to hold off until after the city So

381
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 3: we're probably going to do it regardless of the city.

382
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 3: But the referendum there there is there's a spaceport that

383
00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 3: was supposed to be built in South Georgia and basically

384
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 3: this one woman like started a referendum question and got

385
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 3: this spaceboard canceled. Of course, we're talking very different like municipalities.

386
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 3: That was a much smaller one. She only had to

387
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 3: collect fourteen hundred signatures or something like that. But there's

388
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 3: a referendum question that is in front of the municipal

389
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 3: clerk to kind of sign off on it and make

390
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 3: sure that it is properly worded and all these things

391
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 3: like just to administrate issue at this Once the clerk

392
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 3: signs off on it, then these organizers have sixty days

393
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 3: to collect seventy five thousand. The number they actually need

394
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 3: is just over seventy thousand, but they're collecting a little

395
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 3: extra because these signatures will be challenged, you know, things

396
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,880
Speaker 3: like that with a vote. If they're successful in doing so,

397
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 3: it goes to city council, who again as in the

398
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 3: administrative position, has to all the signatures, make sure everything

399
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,880
Speaker 3: you know is official. And then if once that passes,

400
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 3: then it goes automatically on the November seventh, and then

401
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 3: it will be a straight up or down question of

402
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: do we cancel this twenty twenty one lease to the

403
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 3: Atlantic Police. But there there are a couple where this

404
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 3: comes in. I think most interestingly is the organizers of

405
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 3: this believe that they can get an injunction to stop

406
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: construction both now once the referendum campaign picks off, and

407
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,479
Speaker 3: then if they collect the seventy thousand signatures again until

408
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: November seven. So this could significantly delay the Atlanta Folet

409
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: Foundation's ability to continue destruction on the land. And like

410
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 3: right now we are in the mass rating days of

411
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 3: the project, which is the most environmentally damaging part of it.

412
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 3: Now we're we're screwing with the contours of the land.

413
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: So you know, they're going to have to prove that

414
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 3: they're serious about the referendum, and the judge is going

415
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: to have to believe that the referendum is at least

416
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: likely to succeed in order to get this injunction. But

417
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: it does look like they should be able to prove

418
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 3: at least that they are serious and there is a

419
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 3: good chance of the succeeding.

420
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: How soon do people have to start like doing stuff

421
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 2: for that.

422
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: So the referendum once the clerk signs off on the paperwork,

423
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 3: and that the clerk has seven days to validate, and

424
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: then once that spends, you have the sixty days. So

425
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: we're in this kind of interim period where they can't

426
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: start collecting signatures, but as soon as the clerk signs

427
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 3: off on it, they will start collecting signatures. So they

428
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 3: anticipate the clerk to like kind of try to hold

429
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 3: off as long as possible. So they're looking at Wednesday,

430
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 3: which I'm going to look at my calendar because you

431
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 3: know exactly what. So they're looking at Wednesday the fourteenth

432
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 3: as the kickoff for the signature collecting camp. So for

433
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: more information about the referendum campaign or to find ways

434
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: to volunteer, or if you are an Atlanta resident who

435
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: was registered to vote in the last election, you can

436
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 3: sign the referendum. So copsity vote dot.

437
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 2: That's copcityvote dot com.

438
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 4: Cool.

439
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: Let's see, there's one other thing that happened of note

440
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: the past few weeks.

441
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: One thing, one little thing.

442
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: There's one other thing that happened of note the past

443
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:46,679
Speaker 2: few weeks, and that's when police rated the home of

444
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 2: three people and this this home kind of serves as

445
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 2: like a legal defense hub in Atlanta and arrested three

446
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 2: people associated with the Atlanta Solidarity Fund and are charging

447
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 2: them with a variety of of of quote unquote charity

448
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 2: fraud and like uh another other quite nonsensical financial crimes.

449
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: As the bail hearing judge admitted himself, so do you

450
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: wanna do you want to go over some of some

451
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 2: of those details, because I mean, this is something that

452
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: was honest. People have been expecting this to happen, Like

453
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: the alne of solid already Fund themselves has said, hey,

454
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 2: we will probably be the target of something like this

455
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: in the future. During during other hearings, the prosecutors that

456
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 2: have talked about how they're investigating the Solidarity Fund as

457
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: a part of this like conspiracy they're trying to to weave.

458
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: So it's definitely something that's been on on people's minds

459
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 2: of of this type of legal this type of like

460
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: state repression targeting all of like the bail funds and

461
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: like legal support structures that have been set up. So yeah,

462
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 2: this happened like late late May, I believe mast Yeah,

463
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: last day of the May thirty.

464
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: First, they were still asleep in their beds, they got swat,

465
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,480
Speaker 3: broke down their door. You know, I'm sure everyone's seen

466
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 3: the video. Broke down their door, armored vehicle and pulled

467
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: them all out of their beds in their pajamas and

468
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 3: took them to jail in their pajamas. Just you know,

469
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 3: utterly insane for a bail fund or a nonprofit to

470
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 3: to have this go down. But yeah, they had been

471
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: prepared for this for quite some time. Marlin, one of

472
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 3: the organizers, had sent ACPP, you know, a statement in

473
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 3: preparation for this, and you know, you saw how quickly

474
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 3: they transitioned the actual running of the bail from the

475
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 3: Atlanta Solidarity fun too, the National Bail Network been seamlessly

476
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: that day so they were prepared. And then you know,

477
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 3: someone who was talking to Marlin while he was in

478
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 3: jail said, Marlon was pretty chill about the whole thing,

479
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: which if you've ever interacted or seen Marlin, uh, that

480
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,480
Speaker 3: is that's that's pretty apt to describe him. But the

481
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 3: actual charges are are insane, you know, the the charity

482
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: fraud part of it. They're they're saying things like buying

483
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: a cell phone, uh for for the bail fund is

484
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 3: charity broad? Or reimbursing yourself or gas is charity broad?

485
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: Or buying COVID tests is charity broad? Like all these

486
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 3: things that that are just like overhead.

487
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very very very standard like overhead costs

488
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: for running an organization of this scale. Yeah, and as is,

489
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: this was all on the website when people dot it

490
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: anyway to talk to the various uses that these funds

491
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 2: were going to have. All the charges are truly flimsy.

492
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 2: There was a veil hearing a few few days later

493
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: which I watched the whole thing, and the judge there

494
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: did not think the charges had much much merit, which

495
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 2: is the first time really during any kind of bail

496
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: hearing associated with top cups standy stuff where the judge

497
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: was like, okay, so this just seems very clearly fake

498
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: and and and told the prosecution that they'll have to

499
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 2: put put a much much stronger, stronger case together if

500
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 2: they want this to go forward and at at any

501
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 2: at any further stage. So all three got out on bail.

502
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: It's it's pretty scary though. We like it's it's it

503
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: fucking sucks. During the bail hearing, uh, the I believe,

504
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: I believe it was it was it was the Assistant

505
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 2: Attorney General who was there, Vowler. I believe he was

506
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 2: talking about how police were going through the trash of

507
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: Solidarity fund, how they're monitoring phone calls, other other communications.

508
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: So just another another good reason to have a have

509
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: a paper shutter and to have to have a burn

510
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: pile in your backyard, because yeah, they're they're they're gonna,

511
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 2: they're gonna go through your trash if they want to

512
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: find things out about you. They they they they stole

513
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: a journal from somebody. They were someone's someone's personal journal

514
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: was was taken. And so yeah, a lot of a

515
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: lot of kind of very very standard, like very standard

516
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: of this type of like shady investigation police stuff, which

517
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: is just it's always good to have a reminder for

518
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: people about what what the police are willing to do.

519
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: But still, even even with all that, it seems like

520
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: they were not able to get much at all, because

521
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 2: the most they can put together is, oh, you you

522
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 2: you use these funds in a way that you explicitly

523
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 2: said that you could be used on your website, which

524
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: is not probably not going to be a crime, So

525
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: not compelling long term, but certainly a pretty large inconvenience

526
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: in the short term, and still a very like chilling

527
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 2: like display of police repression saying that we'll, we'll, well,

528
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: we'll make your life incredibly difficult if if we don't

529
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 2: like you.

530
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: But you know, and as has happened every time there's

531
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: been like this massive display of police repression, it utterly backfired,

532
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: right like we national media is now just harping on

533
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 3: the fact that these charges are overblown and they're attacking

534
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 3: bail buds, which is inconceivable to let's say, like the

535
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: liberal or the liberal left wing of things. And so

536
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 3: you you've blown this issue into another sphere of awareness.

537
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 3: You know, You've got Chris Hayes now on MSNBC doing

538
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: an entire segment on some topsity, which is not something

539
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: you know, we had before, even the domestic cares and charges.

540
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 3: And I think this was just tactically a terrible decision

541
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: by the Attorney General's Office to go through with this,

542
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 3: because the pr side of it is a nightmare, and

543
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: rightfully so, like this is an insane escalation.

544
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: Is the bail fund still being operated by the National

545
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: Bail Organization at this point?

546
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 3: Yes, so the bail funds is still being run out

547
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: of the national network at this point in time. So

548
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: secure dot act, Blue dot com, Slash donate slash Atlanta

549
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 3: Solidarity will get you a donate page continue to support

550
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: bail you know in Atlanta, which again we've got a

551
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: week of action coming up. Bail funds are highly probable

552
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: in terms of being used.

553
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I means as they were used to bail out

554
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 2: the three people who are the veil who are part

555
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: of the bail fund organizers, because I think I think

556
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: they all got a fifteen thousand dollars spale, which is

557
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 2: a relatively low in terms of what we've seen in

558
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: relation to this movement.

559
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: And I was looking through the December warrants and bail

560
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: hearings a minute ago for another story and like then

561
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 3: there were like ten thousand dollars. The cost has ballooned

562
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: dramatically in the last months, so to go back down

563
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: to fifteen thousand dollars bail is terrible and awful, but

564
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: that seems way more in line with expectations.

565
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, so that is that is just a small

566
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: glimpse of the many things that have been happening the

567
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 2: past a month. Things do not seem to be slowing down.

568
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: Things just seem to be changing in ways that makes

569
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: h makes everything certainly certainly a tricky and not very

570
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: not very clear, but that's kind of the way that

571
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: these things go. People are still going to be showing up.

572
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: There's the Week of Action happening on us starting on

573
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: the twenty fourth, So that's that's going to be this month.

574
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 2: So it's going to be a interesting lead up to

575
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: July first.

576
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 7: Uh.

577
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, the movement continues. Uh where can Where can people

578
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 2: find your work? Matt?

579
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can follow a c pc uh at Atlanta

580
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 3: otherspore Press on Twitter. You can follow me at Matt

581
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 3: a CPC on Twitter, and our website is at l Press.

582
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: Collective dot com. I assume yeah, I said, oh did

583
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 2: I cut out you did cut out. I could not

584
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: hear it at all. I said, I heard. I heard

585
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 2: at l Press Collective.

586
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, just you know, ATL Press Collection dot.

587
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 2: Com dot com fantastic. Yeah you can.

588
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: Uh.

589
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 2: I'll put a link for the for the new for

590
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: the new solidarity fund, uh secure dot ActBlue dot com

591
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 2: slash don't slash a l n a solidarity because that

592
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: is a long thing to type out. So I'll put

593
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: a link for that in the description for the new

594
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: for the new bail fund link and uh, yeah you can.

595
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 2: You can.

596
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 8: Uh.

597
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: If you want to keep updated on plans for the

598
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 2: Week of Action, I suppose you can look at stop

599
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: cup City on Instagram and the Defending Line of Forest

600
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 2: account on Twitter, along with the many many websites that

601
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: that exists at this point. But yeah, so that's gonna

602
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 2: be happening later. I don't know what will happen because

603
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 2: I because I don't know, because I week, because I

604
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: really have no idea what's going to happen. Because what

605
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 2: happened to the last one was also quite quite surprising.

606
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: So who who knows? Who knows what will what will

607
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: what will go down? But thank you Matt for joining

608
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 2: me to give me a give me and the listeners

609
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 2: a bit of an update on the again, many many

610
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: things that have been happening in Atlanta. I'll see you

611
00:35:44,880 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: all on the other side.

612
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,919
Speaker 4: And welcome to a very special joint episode of two

613
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 4: shows that you hopefully love, one the House of Pod.

614
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: I'm Cave. I'm the host of that show, and it

615
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 4: could happen here with my good friend James Stout. James, Hi, Hi, Kry.

616
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 4: I'm very excited about this. This is a rare privilege. Yeah,

617
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 4: I'm very excited too. We'll get straight to it. Just

618
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 4: a quick reminder, if you're not following one of these

619
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 4: shows and you're following the other, yeah, all of both.

620
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 4: Why not and leave a nice review if you like

621
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 4: the shows either way. But we're really excited, So let's

622
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 4: get straight to the episode. How's that sound?

623
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: Yep?

624
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 9: Must get.

625
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 4: And welcome back.

626
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 3: Oh.

627
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 4: I know. Every week I say this is a special episode,

628
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 4: and I'm usually lying ninety nine percent of the time

629
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 4: is not special. But this week is very special. It's

630
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 4: special because I've never done this before. I'm very excited.

631
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 4: It's a topic I really have wanted to cover for

632
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 4: a while, but I'm going to be covering the topic

633
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 4: with a good friend of mine who has an excellent show,

634
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 4: and we're doing a joint show release thing and I've

635
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 4: never done it. It's like a Marvel team up, and

636
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 4: I'm very excited for it. James stout, James goa, introduce

637
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 4: your first journalist podcaster host of it could happen here, which,

638
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 4: if you're listening to this on it could happen here,

639
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,479
Speaker 4: you already knew that. James. Welcome to the show.

640
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 9: Hi, thank you.

641
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I don't watch many Sweeper hero movies, so

642
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 7: I'm now concerned as to which Marvel hero villain I

643
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:43,200
Speaker 7: would be.

644
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 4: Well, I was thinking more of the comics. But if

645
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 4: I have, if I have the pin you to a character,

646
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: it's Moonnight. I think that's clear.

647
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 7: Okay, it's gone straight past me, buddy, but I'm sure

648
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,120
Speaker 7: I hope that was take.

649
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 4: My word for it. It's cool. It's cool, James. Can

650
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: you tell us a little bit about what we're covering today.

651
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 4: Let's talk talk to our people about what. Then we'll

652
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 4: introduce our guests. But let's tell people kind of what

653
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 4: we're trying to cover today.

654
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, of course, So we're talking about like healthcare and

655
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 7: an Indigenous context and how we can both learn from

656
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 7: and stand in solidarity within indigenous communities when it comes

657
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 7: to healthcare.

658
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 4: I guess excellent. And to help us with that, we

659
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 4: have two guests. We have a medical student at a

660
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 4: little school called Harvard I think it's a liberal arts

661
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 4: school out in the east somewhere, named Victor Lopez Carmen.

662
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 4: He was the prior elected co chair of the United

663
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 4: Nations Global Indigenous Youth Caucus. He is a member of

664
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 4: the Crow Creek Sooux tribe and also from the Yockey tribes.

665
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 4: Is that correct, Victor? Yeah, okay, excellent, welcome to the shows.

666
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. I'm honestly props to pronouncing all

667
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 5: that right.

668
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, no, your stuff. I'm going to get right.

669
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 4: Our next guest, whose name is Molly, I'm gonna probably

670
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: destroy her name because that those are the names I

671
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 4: have a hard time with. Doctor Molly Hollweaver.

672
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 3: Is that correct? E r?

673
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 4: Doctor at UC Davis, one of my favorite hospitals in

674
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 4: the world. Is that also correct?

675
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 6: That is correct? I work at you see Davis.

676
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 9: So I guess maybe we should start, like.

677
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 7: If we want to start out by explaining maybe how

678
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 7: healthcare like what things that when we look at healthcare

679
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 7: and indigenous context, what things we're looking at the differentiate

680
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 7: it from healthcare in other context?

681
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 4: Right?

682
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 7: What will be the areas that both of you guys

683
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 7: think that folks who aren't familiar with this, because sadly,

684
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 7: I think a lot of the United States they either

685
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 7: don't think they know Indigenous people or maybe they really

686
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 7: don't like and we can explain that lots of Indigenous people,

687
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 7: most Indigenous people live off res too. I think that

688
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 7: would be very valuable. But what sort of topics will

689
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 7: be be looking at when we're looking at healthcare from

690
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 7: an indigenous perspective.

691
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 5: I think, like when you look at indigenous peoples in

692
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:01,400
Speaker 5: the US, you think of our traditional health system as well,

693
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 5: like that was what we always had, that was what

694
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 5: we've had for thousands of years, and the efforts to

695
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 5: maintain the traditional health, traditional healing practices. And then you

696
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 5: look at the Western health system, the different systems we

697
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 5: have access to today, including Indian Health Service, which is

698
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 5: unique to US, tribal clinics, tribal operated clinics, and hospitals

699
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 5: everyday hospitals that anyone else uses, because, like you said,

700
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 5: the majority of Native Americans today in the US live

701
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 5: in cities or urban contexts.

702
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 4: Mollie, let me ask you because people may be wondering,

703
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 4: how did you become involved with delivery of healthcare to

704
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 4: the Native American population.

705
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 6: Yeah. Thanks, I am, it's great to be here. Thanks

706
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 6: for having us.

707
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 10: I'm excited to chat with you all.

708
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 6: I kind of had a unique opportunity.

709
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 10: I've always been interested in Indian health service as like

710
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 10: a healthcare delivery system and Indigenous peoples. And when I

711
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 10: started fellowship, I did a Global Health Fellowship and I

712
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 10: started in twenty twenty, so it was, you know, not

713
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 10: a great year to be a Global Health Fellow for

714
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 10: many reasons, and so I had very you know, obviously

715
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 10: we were on lockdown and work was hard and stressful

716
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 10: as an YEARDOC, and so we were trying to be

717
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 10: creative and you know, how we can do this global

718
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 10: health fellowship. And so I got in touch with a

719
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 10: awesome physician, Don Maggio, who is the ed director at

720
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 10: White River, which is Apacha Nation in Arizona.

721
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 6: It's like three hours east of Phoenix. So he went

722
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 6: to high He was.

723
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 10: A Highland Alum, a Highland DM alum which is in

724
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 10: Oakland and now works full time at White River. Anyways,

725
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 10: got connected with him and everything that was going on

726
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 10: during the pandemic, because, as I'm sure you guys are

727
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 10: all aware and probably a lot of our listeners, that

728
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 10: the Navajo and Apache tribes were had much higher rates

729
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 10: of COVID and of severe COVID, and so I went

730
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 10: as first for kind of public health outreach. So I

731
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 10: went and did some contact tracing and helped do They

732
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 10: did a really cool program of outreach in the community

733
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 10: to go and check on the locals and we would

734
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 10: go and check pull sox, so we'd see how high

735
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,919
Speaker 10: their oxygen saturation was and see how people were doing

736
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 10: to try to catch disease early.

737
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,120
Speaker 6: So that's how I kind of.

738
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 10: Got into doing it, and then I loved it there

739
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 10: and wanted to keep working, and so I continued to moonlight,

740
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 10: which means I worked kind of as a locomes. I

741
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 10: don't know if I need to explain that for medical

742
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 10: Dragon Cave, but I worked, you know, every one to

743
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 10: two months, I would fly to Arizona and work on

744
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 10: the res for a week.

745
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 4: Very very cool. So Victor getting back a little bit

746
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 4: to where Native Americans are getting their health care? What

747
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 4: is what is your interest once you're done and when

748
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 4: you graduate from Where are you are you right now?

749
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 11: I'm a fourth year, so I'm my last year.

750
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 4: Oh my god, for you buddy. How are you liking it?

751
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 5: I'm liking it less. I'm not like like I like medicine.

752
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 5: I still maintain medical school. Like I'm ready to be

753
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 5: done with school senioritis.

754
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 4: Is that what you mean?

755
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 11: Pretty much?

756
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 6: Yeah, you're a rising fourth here or have you already matched? Uh?

757
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 5: No, I'm a I'm a rising fourth here. I'm applying

758
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 5: your residency now, so.

759
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 4: So, so talk to us about where what you would

760
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 4: like to where you like to go and what kind

761
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 4: of medicine you'd like to practice.

762
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 5: Honestly anywhere that will take me.

763
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 11: Doctor.

764
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 5: But yeah, I really I want to go into pediatrics.

765
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 5: Always wanted to help and take care of Native kids.

766
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 5: And back in the community for sure. I want to

767
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 5: go back and be a community member again. I've been

768
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 5: gone for so long. I feel like I've been only

769
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 5: only able to go back for like you know, breaks

770
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 5: and things like that, and it's it's it hasn't been

771
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 5: enough for me as an Indigenous person. So I'm ready

772
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 5: to go back, be a doctor, be part of the community,

773
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 5: be there for ceremonies, be there to be patients.

774
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 11: That's my ideal.

775
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 7: I think one thing that's really interesting, especially and like

776
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 7: we have this chance to talk to you, which we

777
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 7: which we often don't have, is you mentioned like balancing

778
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 7: like western medical technology with indigenous medical technologies, right, And

779
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 7: I'm really interested in hearing how you would approach that

780
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 7: for folks who aren't familiar or for folks who don't

781
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 7: have the knowledge of indigenous medical technologies that you might

782
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 7: you maybe have people who you go to for that.

783
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, well, well, I think it's important to just

784
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 5: already start the conversation that so much indigenous medical technology

785
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 5: has already been appropriated by western medicine as western medicine

786
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:19,799
Speaker 5: aspirin for instance, many traditional healing practices that were and

787
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 5: are still find themselves seeping into the field of psychiatry

788
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 5: or around parenting mental health. The way that, for instance,

789
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 5: that Indigenous peoples. I think there's a growing understanding in

790
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 5: the medical field about planetary health and the impacts of

791
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 5: climate change on health, and a lot of that has

792
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 5: already been said and fought for by Indigenous peoples for

793
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 5: a very long time. And so there's already a lot

794
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 5: of stuff there that we're working with, and I think

795
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 5: it's important to give Indigenous peoples their flowers. But yeah,

796
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 5: that I think when it comes to integrating on the

797
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,320
Speaker 5: clinical level, it's going to differ from community to community.

798
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 5: You might know, but in the possible Yaki tribe, the

799
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 5: health division employs a team of traditional healers that come

800
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 5: up i think monthly from Sonora, Mexico, from the villages

801
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 5: and Yacci patients can elect to see the traditional healers

802
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 5: with or without a Western trained physician, and there's a

803
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 5: whole room where they have all these herbs and plants

804
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 5: that Yaki people have been using for thousands of years,

805
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 5: and I think that's very beautiful.

806
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 11: One reason we've been able to do that is.

807
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 5: Because our tribe elected to run their own health division

808
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 5: rather than having the Indian Health Service run it for them.

809
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 5: We had the capability to do that at the time.

810
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 5: Not all tribes do have the capability, yet we had it,

811
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 5: and I think it's been beneficial for us because it's

812
00:46:55,680 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 5: given us more freedom to bridge Western and traditional medicine

813
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 5: in a way that works for us.

814
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 7: The Yacki system is a really great one, like and.

815
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 9: Like people.

816
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 7: Probably that people won't be familiar with it. I guessing

817
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,879
Speaker 7: most people listening won't be familiar with it. But it's

818
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 7: allowed the tribes to all kinds of cool things, like

819
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 7: in I've been involved in a diabetes prevention cycling program

820
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 7: there for ten years something a long time, but there

821
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 7: are things that can be done because of that block

822
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 7: grant or running their own system as opposed to having

823
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 7: IOHS run the system. Could you like, because Marley, I

824
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 7: think you're more familiar with like an IHS clinic model, right,

825
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 7: would one of you want to explain the difference between

826
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 7: the two of those for people who aren't familiar IHS

827
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,960
Speaker 7: versus the tribe. The Pascuayaki tribe run their own system.

828
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 7: I think they get a block grant, correct me if

829
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 7: I'm wrong. Victory, they get a block grant for my HSS,

830
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 7: and then they spend that as they see fit.

831
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 10: Yeah, I can speak to the IHS side, but for

832
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,479
Speaker 10: me this in Victory. You can correct me if I'm wrong,

833
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 10: But for me it was easy to It's kind of

834
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 10: similar to the VA for just for medical doctors to

835
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 10: understand in that it's a set of money that the

836
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 10: government sets aside for a certain population and v veterans

837
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 10: for the VA and IHS for natives, but there's obviously

838
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 10: disparity between even those two, Like per captive spending is

839
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,399
Speaker 10: way higher in the VA than it is on IHS.

840
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 10: But it's a yeah, Western system, and all of the

841
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 10: staff on the hospital, like the Reservation hospital or the

842
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,320
Speaker 10: Indian Hospital are all employees of IHS, so they're actually

843
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 10: kind of like federal employees. And we can kind of

844
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 10: get into the weeds of it later, but there's you know,

845
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 10: a lot of turnover because it's a sometimes it's hard

846
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 10: places to live, so and they're young. They kind of

847
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 10: recruit young doctors, and there's a lot of turnover for

848
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 10: the for the primary care doctors. And then in the

849
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 10: er where I work, there's very few board certified er doctors,

850
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 10: so it's staffed by non em certified docs.

851
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 5: That sounds right to me. The only other thing I

852
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 5: would add is that the Indian Health Service it's predicated

853
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 5: on what's called the Federal trust responsibility that's built over

854
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:21,799
Speaker 5: decades of Supreme Court precedent smaller court precedents over the

855
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 5: years that I think a lot of them were based

856
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 5: in treaties made with Indigenous peoples. And basically this means

857
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,200
Speaker 5: that the government, because of the harm, the oppression, the

858
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 5: colonization that has been dealt upon Indigenous peoples across the

859
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 5: United States, there's a trust responsibility for the federal government

860
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 5: to sort of to do something about the lingering impacts.

861
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 5: They have a responsibility to provide health services to Indigenous

862
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 5: peoples in the US. That was also in many of

863
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 5: the treaties that were made with Indigenous nations. And I

864
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 5: think it does go over people's heads sometimes that this

865
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 5: is not a favor, this is not a gift, It's

866
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 5: a responsibility based on centuries of oppression, and that that

867
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 5: responsibility is not fully being met right now because the

868
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 5: Indian Health Service is severely underfunded. The way that the

869
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 5: funds are appropriated is unique to government health care programs.

870
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 5: The way the veterans, for instance, Veterans Affairs is appropriated

871
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 5: is much more effective than the way Indian Health Service

872
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 5: is appropriated at the federal level.

873
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 7: It might be worth explaining here just briefly, that not

874
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 7: all tribes are federally recognized right and not all Indigenous

875
00:50:41,640 --> 00:50:43,959
Speaker 7: people are part of federally recognized tribes, and how would

876
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 7: that impact their access to healthcare.

877
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know, federal recognition isn't perfect. It's a

878
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 5: really arduous process, and not all tribes are federally recognized.

879
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 5: For those tribes who aren't, they don't have access to

880
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 5: those services like the Indian Health Service or the Bureau

881
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 5: of Indian Education, for instance, and many other federal grants

882
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 5: that Indigenous peoples and Indigenous nations can apply for or

883
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 5: just automatically get. For instance, during COVID nineteen and there

884
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 5: were specific funding allocated for tribal nations, those tribal nations

885
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 5: who are not federally recognized, they wouldn't have that access

886
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 5: to them.

887
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,240
Speaker 4: Let me shift gears a little bit here and get

888
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 4: to a question that is I think going to be

889
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 4: very difficult to answer, and it's one of those impossible

890
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 4: questions because there's so many parts to it, I'm sure,

891
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 4: and it varies so much. But I'd like to talk

892
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 4: a little bit about the major health issues that you

893
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 4: guys feel are facing Native Americans right now, and whether

894
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 4: or not if they are at all different from the

895
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 4: rest of the US population, and then we could talk

896
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 4: about what barriers there are to care in that regards.

897
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,799
Speaker 4: But we'll start with you, Molly can you tell us

898
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 4: from your experience working there, what are the major health

899
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 4: issues that you feel may or may not be the

900
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 4: same as the general population.

901
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 10: Yeah, I think at the end of the day is

902
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 10: it's very similar. You're seeing the same the same disease

903
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 10: processes that you're.

904
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 6: Seeing in the general population, but you're.

905
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 10: Seeing everything's a little bit more severe. I would say,

906
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 10: like there's more there's higher rates of the chronic disorders

907
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 10: like diabetes and hypertension, and it's kind of more severe

908
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,879
Speaker 10: long term effects of the diabetes and hypertension, and at

909
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 10: younger ages. I think that was kind of what was

910
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 10: most striking to me. You're seeing the long term, the

911
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 10: bad effects, the long term bad effects at younger ages.

912
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 10: You're seeing Alcoholic disorder is a problem everywhere in the

913
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 10: United States, but on tribes alcoholics disorder.

914
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 6: Is much higher. And again, like I was, it was shocked.

915
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 10: It was honestly shocking to see thirty year olds who

916
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 10: had n sage liver disease from alcohol use disorder. And

917
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 10: I saw on some of the sickest people I've seen

918
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:11,359
Speaker 10: have been from my time there. So everything just is,

919
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 10: you know, a little bit harder, and the reasons for

920
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 10: that as we can talk about are like totally multifactorial,

921
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 10: but in line with poverty. Funding is a huge like

922
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 10: funding and poverty go hand in hand.

923
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 6: Education and just the.

924
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 10: Fact that yeah, they've been oppressed for centuries. But yeah,

925
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 10: I think it's at the end of the day, it

926
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 10: was the same. I was seeing the same things that

927
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 10: I would see at UC Davis, but I was seeing

928
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 10: it on a more extreme basis.

929
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 11: I would say, Victor, Yeah, yeah, definitely.

930
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 12: Yeah.

931
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 5: I think it's important to note to sort of say

932
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 5: that these problems exist all across the US, because there

933
00:53:55,600 --> 00:54:01,359
Speaker 5: can be stereotypes associated with health concerns like that are

934
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,280
Speaker 5: attributed to the way that we live, or our culture,

935
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 5: or just inherent to who we are. Like there's this

936
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 5: prevailing I think notion that I don't know what came first,

937
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,319
Speaker 5: but I think in the medical field, I still hear

938
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 5: about it. Like in class sometimes they'll say, like Native

939
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 5: Americans have the highest rates of diabetes or heart disease,

940
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,759
Speaker 5: but they won't say why, and it makes people think that, oh,

941
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 5: like are they just not catching on? Like are they

942
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 5: just living badly? And when you don't say why, it

943
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,360
Speaker 5: kind of I think it creates a lot of ignorance

944
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 5: and a lot of room for interpretation. So I think

945
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 5: it's really important to talk about those background reasons. For instance,

946
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 5: with diabetes, I think a lot on a lot of reservations,

947
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 5: there's no access to one, traditional foods which have been

948
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:58,279
Speaker 5: you know, through policy, eradicated through government policies over the

949
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 5: decades and centuries, and no access to healthy foods. These

950
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 5: are food deserts. And at the same time, like doctor

951
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 5: Hallweaver mentioned, there's poverty. So if you're trying to get

952
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 5: healthy food you don't have number one, it's not in

953
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 5: the reservation. You might not even be able to afford it.

954
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 5: If you can get off the reservation. Not a lot

955
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,240
Speaker 5: of people have, you know, not everyone has a car

956
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 5: or the ability to mobilize, you know, hour and a

957
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 5: half to the health food store, and so you know,

958
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 5: a lot of the that's just one example of like

959
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 5: some of the systemic reasons why somebody could get diabetes

960
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 5: quite early. And there's also a lot of lingering trauma

961
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 5: and mental health impacts that I think play into the

962
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 5: high rates of alcoholism. A lot of you know, in policy,

963
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 5: there was there were some early efforts to try to

964
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 5: I think, to try to limit alcohol on reservations that

965
00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 5: we still see today on some reservations, alcohols entirely illegal

966
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 5: on the reservation, but you'll see you'll still see businesses

967
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 5: right on the border of the reservation just camp themselves

968
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 5: there right on the border, knowing that these that the

969
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 5: population is vulnerable, maybe not knowing that it's because of

970
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 5: the historical trauma and things, but there's there's something there,

971
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 5: you know, so there's still an aspect of being targeted

972
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 5: there by something that that you know, the community is

973
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 5: highly vulnerable to still to this day.

974
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 4: It's a really interesting point that you bring up because

975
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 4: I remember being in medical school and you know, you

976
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 4: see in these lecture halls and some they would bring

977
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 4: up like Native Americans being a higher risk for all

978
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 4: these It would be like one of these little footnotes

979
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 4: that would be in a lot of our lectures and

980
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 4: that sort of thing. They never explained why, I mean

981
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 4: medical school particularly then, was I wouldn't want to touch

982
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 4: anything that they might see as an even mildly political issue,

983
00:56:56,239 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 4: even though not discussing it made it one. Really, do

984
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 4: you must be annoyed by this? Does this happen to you?

985
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 4: Like are you like sitting in your lecture class and

986
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 4: then like the teacher will mention some about naive Americans.

987
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 4: Then all like the white students in your class just

988
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 4: turned their heads and like look at you to see

989
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 4: your response.

990
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, you're like what listen, I just like find

991
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 13: a wall and I stare at it, just just anticipating it,

992
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,520
Speaker 13: just looking in deep thought until it passes.

993
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,919
Speaker 4: Right, smart student, Molly, you're going to add something.

994
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 6: I was going to add to that victor that.

995
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 10: Yeah, just to highlight the food desert example, during COVID, right,

996
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 10: the White River Reservation had one grocery store and during

997
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 10: the lockdown it was only open, you know, from nine

998
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,840
Speaker 10: am to three pm on Monday, Wednesday Friday, Like it

999
00:57:56,920 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 10: had really limited hours, and that was the one grocery

1000
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 10: store for the entire oservation, and so it was just

1001
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 10: even you know, during the pandemic, everything got a little

1002
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 10: bit worse. But yeah, they're very limited access to healthy

1003
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 10: foods for sure.

1004
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 7: One thing that I was recently educated about during a

1005
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 7: discussion about diabetes prevention was epigenetics. And like, my I'm

1006
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 7: a doctor of modern European history. So if I go

1007
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 7: off the rails at any point, I'm going to lie

1008
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 7: on one of you three to gently guide me back.

1009
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 7: But I found that fascinating. The concept of like intergenerational

1010
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 7: trauma and epigenetics and how that can impact healthcare today.

1011
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 7: Is that something either if you could explain to listeners

1012
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 7: who like me a redatively ignorant on it.

1013
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 4: And that's the I can take this one actually because

1014
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 4: actually it's interesting because I did an episode recently about

1015
00:58:53,880 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 4: the intergenerational trauma of the Persian diaspora after the revolution

1016
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 4: and how this most recent set of protests sort of

1017
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 4: reignited this trauma. And excuse me, one of the guests

1018
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 4: mentioned that there was a study in mice in which

1019
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 4: they looked at sort of epigenetics of stress response, and

1020
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 4: they had pregnant mice and they like, they would give

1021
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 4: them the scent of rose blossom or something, and then

1022
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 4: they would shock them, and then the mouse would grow

1023
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 4: to be really fearful of those shocks that were associated

1024
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 4: with the rose blossom. And then what they noticed was

1025
00:59:32,440 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 4: that like the children of the mice would also respond

1026
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 4: poor ly to like that same rose blossom scent even

1027
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 4: though they didn't have the exposure to it. And I

1028
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: looked into it, I mean, because the truth of it

1029
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 4: is I don't think you can inherit specific phobias. That

1030
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 4: just doesn't happen. But I kind of pushed back on

1031
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 4: that point a little bit, and I got a lot

1032
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 4: of messages from molecular pathologists who were like, so you

1033
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 4: can't stress during pregnancy. It can be it can affect

1034
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 4: the DNA. It can affect the DNA, and that can

1035
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 4: be passed down changes in the DNA, disruption of the DNA.

1036
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:13,400
Speaker 4: You can't inherit specific phobias or or fears or stresses

1037
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 4: per se, but it can clearly cause genetic damage when

1038
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 4: you have that much stress. And then on top of that,

1039
01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 4: of course we're talking about the psychological impact it has

1040
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 4: on someone and then how they raise their children and

1041
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:30,919
Speaker 4: how their children grow up. So it is I agree,

1042
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,920
Speaker 4: it's a very interesting subject, but I don't want to

1043
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 4: get any more molecular pathologists emails. Molly.

1044
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 10: I was going to say, I'm glad you took this

1045
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 10: epigenetics question from me.

1046
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 4: You know, one thing about your going back to what

1047
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,919
Speaker 4: you were saying, victor about the situations that have sort

1048
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 4: of predicated this. Correct me if I'm wrong. But my

1049
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 4: understanding is most of the land that these Indian reservations

1050
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,080
Speaker 4: are on in the United States, Like there's three hundred

1051
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 4: and twenty six if I've read that correctly, isn't on

1052
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,200
Speaker 4: great land. It's like land that's close to like mines

1053
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 4: or places where there's some sort of radiation or there's

1054
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 4: some sort of issues not great like for growing food

1055
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 4: itself directly there is that? Is that correct? Is that

1056
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 4: part of this correct?

1057
01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 11: Yeah?

1058
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:20,160
Speaker 5: I think a lot of it was. The intention was

1059
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 5: to put indigenous peoples on land that wasn't as fertile,

1060
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 5: and that that's kind of goes back into what I

1061
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 5: was talking about traditional foods and how it's difficult. But

1062
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 5: I think, you know, I don't know if this science

1063
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 5: was all there at the time, and I think now

1064
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 5: a lot of indigenous land, a lot of reservations actually

1065
01:01:42,360 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 5: they found out that they're yeah, they're on like on

1066
01:01:44,400 --> 01:01:48,480
Speaker 5: top of big mines and like things that the Western

1067
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 5: world funds really valuable. And so there's a shift almost

1068
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 5: to almost you see it in like policies and lawsuits

1069
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 5: today to start trying to grab more minerals from the

1070
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 5: land that that that they had actually put us on,

1071
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 5: which they didn't think was valuable. And now they're like, wait,

1072
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 5: there's like copper under there.

1073
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a good example of that, right exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1074
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 4: Well, you know the podcaster and the rapper propaganda prop

1075
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 4: I'm James. You probably have met him, you know. He

1076
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 4: speaks about how initially they put the African Americans in

1077
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 4: the waterfront. They said, here, you're gonna live in these

1078
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 4: places by the by the the ocean where you can't

1079
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 4: really grow things that well. And then after a while

1080
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 4: they realized, oh no, that's really valuable property, and then

1081
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 4: they started trying to find ways to get them out

1082
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 4: of there. Seems to be our national m O. Can

1083
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 4: we get back to the IHS a little bit? So

1084
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 4: you guys have mentioned Indian Health Services. It's come up

1085
01:02:52,720 --> 01:02:54,720
Speaker 4: a couple of times. And James, I'd also want to

1086
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,080
Speaker 4: hear your because you worked there as well. I'd like

1087
01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 4: to hear like, what are some things that the IHS

1088
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 4: is doing well? What are some things that need work

1089
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 4: and how.

1090
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 5: I just want to say the IHS, I think they

1091
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 5: they they're doing what they can't a lot of it.

1092
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 11: They're doing what they well with what they have.

1093
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 5: I would say like a lot of the issues are

1094
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 5: underfunding and we don't exactly know how well, like we

1095
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 5: don't really know the potential quite yet because they just

1096
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 5: don't have enough funding. So I think, like I would

1097
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 5: just like to insert that caveat into the conversation first.

1098
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 10: Ye yeah, yeah, And I you know, I only have

1099
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 10: experience on one reservation and they're you know, every everyone

1100
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 10: is different, for sure.

1101
01:03:41,040 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 6: I think someone might know more than me.

1102
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 10: But the Alaska Health System Indian Health System is still

1103
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 10: part of the AHS, but it's like kind of its

1104
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,479
Speaker 10: own thing, and they are the kind of the gold

1105
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 10: standard or they're they're kind of the they are doing

1106
01:03:54,720 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 10: the best with what they have. And I don't know,

1107
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 10: maybe you guys know, James or Victor that if they

1108
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 10: had more funding is probably a big part of it.

1109
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 10: If they just have more funding, But they are kind

1110
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 10: of touted as the leader in IHS right now.

1111
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 7: I know, but less about this in either of you,

1112
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 7: I'm sure. But I know I worked on an ih

1113
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,920
Speaker 7: grant years ago with someone who'd worked with Alaska Native

1114
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 7: people and they were talking about this Promodores de Salul model,

1115
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 7: which I don't know if you guys are familiar with

1116
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 7: that it came from Oakland actually, but like it's a

1117
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 7: p mental model for health education that they had implemented there,

1118
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 7: and we were trying to get money to implement that

1119
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 7: and the Yaki Reservation didn't work shockingly, but that model

1120
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 7: that they used of like using people from the community

1121
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,320
Speaker 7: to educate people from the community rather than like, I

1122
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 7: guess you could call it like white men and white coats,

1123
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 7: worked very well for them, and I think it's a

1124
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:58,240
Speaker 7: very desirable model to replicate. It's not that expensive either,

1125
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 7: and we were doing it with beat its Prevention, right. So, like,

1126
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 7: chiefly my thing is riding bikes has been my whole life,

1127
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 7: and so it is, yeah, just a big old bike

1128
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 7: riding hippie, but like, riding bike is very good for you,

1129
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:17,600
Speaker 7: as it turns out, which is which. So the thing

1130
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 7: that we've been doing with a lot of my friends

1131
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 7: on the Yaki Reservation is getting folks helping them out

1132
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,720
Speaker 7: with a bike and helmet and lights and all the

1133
01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 7: things that you need, teasing them to fix the bike right,

1134
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 7: and then having them go ahead and ride the bike,

1135
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 7: and then like it, having them bring friends and family

1136
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 7: members to come back and ride the bike and and

1137
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 7: have a goal event as part of that. And that's

1138
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 7: worked very well for us too, So that model that

1139
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 7: they implemented has been super successful within this very small

1140
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 7: context of getting Yaki folks to ride bikes.

1141
01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, just going off of that, I mean, that sounds awesome.

1142
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 5: And I think one of the limitations of the IHS

1143
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,560
Speaker 5: is that it's this huge bureaucracy, so it's hard to

1144
01:05:59,600 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 5: do stuff like that, Like for instance, at the Yaqui tribe.

1145
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 5: I'm sure you know, we're not the easiest chribe to

1146
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 5: work with, but but.

1147
01:06:07,720 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 11: We're probably easier than the IHS.

1148
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:10,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, because.

1149
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 5: And and I think that that's a huge limitation. Like

1150
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 5: even if you want to do a study on the IHS,

1151
01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 5: it has to be approved by like all of these

1152
01:06:23,160 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 5: government officials and bureaucrats and uh and I think that

1153
01:06:27,920 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 5: that makes it really difficult. And especially because you know,

1154
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 5: and there's so many branches at the government that the

1155
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 5: Indian Health Service is just one small.

1156
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 11: You know, piece of it.

1157
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 5: H and it's not necessarily one that's like heavily prioritized

1158
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:47,160
Speaker 5: by the government. But there are improvements that are being made.

1159
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 5: I think in this last appropriations bill, the Indian Health

1160
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 5: Service got like funded a lot more than it had previously.

1161
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,120
Speaker 5: So hopefully we'll see some improvements. I think they're doing

1162
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 5: really well when it comes to digital health, the integration

1163
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 5: of electronic medical systems. I think that made a significant

1164
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:11,960
Speaker 5: impact when that was introduced. And then you know, I

1165
01:07:12,000 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 5: think the Indian Health Service, like the model does well

1166
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 5: in giving a lot of freedom to tribes to choose

1167
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:22,200
Speaker 5: do we want to continue with the Indian Health Service

1168
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:25,439
Speaker 5: or do we want to take our health system over

1169
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 5: and run it ourselves, but still use them same money

1170
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:31,440
Speaker 5: that would have been used anyways. I think that's what

1171
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 5: a lot of the clinics in Alaska did in terms

1172
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 5: of having like it's called six thirty eight clinic or

1173
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 5: six thirty eight clinics or tribal health systems. It's really

1174
01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 5: cool what they did in Alaska because those are some

1175
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:47,240
Speaker 5: of the most remote, remote villages you know, in the US,

1176
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 5: and I think that is something that we should be

1177
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,439
Speaker 5: paying more attention to, especially you know, when we're talking

1178
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,920
Speaker 5: about you know, we talked about Alaska that they're remote,

1179
01:07:59,000 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 5: but a lot of tribes the parts of the US

1180
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 5: or maybe not as remote, but they're in very similar

1181
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 5: situations and that they're kind of disconnected, like on food deserts.

1182
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 11: And I think the same model can be used, but not.

1183
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,160
Speaker 5: Every tribe is at the place where they're capable yet

1184
01:08:17,520 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 5: of taking over like the operations, the staff. There's a

1185
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 5: lot of work that needs to be done, and every

1186
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 5: tribe is kind of in a different place.

1187
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 4: I'm interesting, I'm interested. I think you were mostly tongue

1188
01:08:28,960 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 4: in cheek. But when you when you mentioned the yacky

1189
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 4: tribe is not that easy to work with? What what

1190
01:08:33,200 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 4: what do you mean? Like is it is? Is there

1191
01:08:36,400 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 4: a lot of different opinions? Is that? Why is there?

1192
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 4: Is it hard to why is it hard to manage?

1193
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:42,720
Speaker 4: Or why would that be difficult?

1194
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 5: We're just very militant, and I think I think we're

1195
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 5: just you know, we're just do our own thing and.

1196
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:55,799
Speaker 4: Uh, very independent and.

1197
01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, we're just kind of like I think I

1198
01:08:58,160 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 5: think we're just kind of a very.

1199
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 11: Rebellious nature in us, like sort of yeah.

1200
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:09,640
Speaker 5: Just really had strong and like we don't work the

1201
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,639
Speaker 5: same on the same timeline.

1202
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:13,719
Speaker 11: I think sometimes it's like, for.

1203
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 5: Instance, like like I'll tell you a story, there was

1204
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 5: this this shrimp farmer dude, our traditional one of our

1205
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 5: traditional spiritual leaders political leaders.

1206
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:26,759
Speaker 11: He passed away in early two thousands.

1207
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 5: His name was on Selmo Valencia, and they were bringing

1208
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 5: down there trying to introduce shrimp farming in the traditional

1209
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 5: villages in Sonoda, Mexico. So they brought this guy all

1210
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:40,720
Speaker 5: the way down. He's this businessman and you know, he's

1211
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 5: running on time, and they bounded down to the traditional

1212
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 5: authorities in one of the pueblos and then all of

1213
01:09:48,920 --> 01:09:52,680
Speaker 5: a sudden, right in the middle of the meeting, the

1214
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,599
Speaker 5: snake you see this snake on the floor go by.

1215
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 5: And then also Valencia, he's like stop, wait for a second,

1216
01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 5: and he grabs a snake and then he looks at

1217
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 5: it and he says, we have to stop the meeting.

1218
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 11: I have to go back to Tucson.

1219
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 5: And this business guy is like, what the hell you know,

1220
01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 5: I just came from like Manhattan, and I flew all

1221
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 5: the way up in this village, like and they stopped

1222
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 5: the meeting, and this guy's like confused.

1223
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:22,560
Speaker 11: I think he got really angry.

1224
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:25,280
Speaker 5: Uh, and that never happened to him in a business

1225
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 5: meeting before. But there was a traditional aspect that I

1226
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 5: think we just put that above everything else, Like during

1227
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 5: even today, during time to ceremony, like no one's answering emails,

1228
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 5: no travel government official is going to get back to

1229
01:10:39,280 --> 01:10:42,720
Speaker 5: you within that those like three four weeks because they're

1230
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 5: doing spiritual practices and honoring that.

1231
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,559
Speaker 9: So yeah, yeah, I get it.

1232
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,799
Speaker 7: From my perspective, everyone is lovely and like it's nice

1233
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 7: to have a community where everyone cares about each other

1234
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,599
Speaker 7: and like wants everyone else to be healthy, and like

1235
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,320
Speaker 7: that's great. There are times when recently we did a

1236
01:11:01,320 --> 01:11:03,600
Speaker 7: live show to raise money to buy more bikes and

1237
01:11:03,680 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 7: someone from iHeart was trying to get a W nine

1238
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 7: out of us, and I was like, no, it's it's

1239
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:11,599
Speaker 7: like Eastern weeks. It's not it's not gonna happen, like

1240
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 7: it's just I did. But it's fine, you explain it.

1241
01:11:13,840 --> 01:11:18,639
Speaker 7: And like I always attribute like I'm not fully culturally fluent, right,

1242
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,719
Speaker 7: Like I'm a guy from England, Like it was different

1243
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 7: where I grew up, so like things you can't tell

1244
01:11:28,680 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 7: ye stout is that it's right up there with Valencia.

1245
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 7: But yeah, like I'm obviously I don't have full cultural effluency,

1246
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 7: so it's on me to kind of listen and learn

1247
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,920
Speaker 7: at a time rather than be frustrated and build those.

1248
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 4: Ship when you're I mean obviously you're you're very good

1249
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 4: at that. In my opinion, what I've seen from you

1250
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 4: so far, but I'm very curious actually from both James

1251
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 4: and Molly, Like when you guys first started going to

1252
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:55,559
Speaker 4: the reservation, what surprised you, What was different than you

1253
01:11:55,640 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 4: had envisioned? What you know, because I'm assuming you got

1254
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:02,800
Speaker 4: all your knowledge of what reservations were like like from Hollywood, Like,

1255
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 4: I did you know what what was fact? What was fiction?

1256
01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 10: Yeah, it was my first time like on a reservation,

1257
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:14,040
Speaker 10: and I think it was.

1258
01:12:15,920 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 6: It.

1259
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 10: It sort of felt like a little bit of a

1260
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 10: different country, almost like you're in Arizona and you drive

1261
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 10: three hours and you feel like you're in a really

1262
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 10: different place. It feels just a little bit different, and

1263
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,000
Speaker 10: just it's beautiful a the one I'm on was, or

1264
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,559
Speaker 10: the one that I went to is in White River, Arizona.

1265
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 6: It really is beautiful in the mountains.

1266
01:12:36,960 --> 01:12:39,479
Speaker 10: Along a river, but it's you know, a lot of

1267
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 10: single story housing that are all kind of government cookie

1268
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 10: cutter housing. And I got to kind of go into

1269
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 10: the homes too when we were doing house visits, So

1270
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 10: that felt I felt very like privileged and it felt

1271
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,000
Speaker 10: special to be able to do that as a very

1272
01:12:57,040 --> 01:13:00,000
Speaker 10: foreign person, right, I felt I felt like an outside

1273
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,479
Speaker 10: and yeah, I mean a lot there isn't They're not

1274
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,400
Speaker 10: central heat for these house Some of these houses, lots

1275
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:12,000
Speaker 10: of the floors were dirt, like not actual flooring on

1276
01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 10: the houses.

1277
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:16,600
Speaker 6: So that was I think surprising to me because it

1278
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,479
Speaker 6: seems like that is not something you think of when

1279
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:24,000
Speaker 6: you think of America. But that was that probably was

1280
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:24,839
Speaker 6: like the most surprising.

1281
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 10: But then like the street dogs running around everywhere, it

1282
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:29,680
Speaker 10: was kind of classic. I think that my first my

1283
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,120
Speaker 10: first drive down, I like had to stop because like

1284
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 10: a pack of dogs went by, and that was kind

1285
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:36,480
Speaker 10: of out of a out of a movie.

1286
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, I didn't know, Like obviously I'm not American either,

1287
01:13:40,400 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 7: so yeah, it's shocking.

1288
01:13:42,720 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 9: I actually am from Texas.

1289
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:47,680
Speaker 7: I just watched the Harry Potter films on repeating that's

1290
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:48,799
Speaker 7: how I learned to be a turf.

1291
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 9: No, I am not a turf.

1292
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 4: I I don't think that.

1293
01:13:55,040 --> 01:14:00,080
Speaker 7: I don't think that, yeah, there's people should go away.

1294
01:14:00,760 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 7: I so like I didn't maybe receive a lot of

1295
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 7: that like sort of ingrained kind of British for we

1296
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 7: fucking did settle colonialism everywhere.

1297
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 9: I don't want to.

1298
01:14:10,360 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 7: Erase that for a second, but I you know, so

1299
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:17,479
Speaker 7: I just go to the restaurant by bike through it.

1300
01:14:18,320 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 7: Pascal yaki Ros has nice rose lovely bike lanes and

1301
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 7: it's much smaller than like the Tohorn Autumn Rears, which

1302
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:28,320
Speaker 7: is next door. That's the sides of Connecticut for people

1303
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 7: who aren't familiar, and I know, I'm from a part

1304
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 7: of England that's very rural where people talk to each other.

1305
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 7: And that's the thing that I don't like about living

1306
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 7: in a town in California is that everyone just kind

1307
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 7: of lives in a little box and kind of moves

1308
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 7: around and doesn't talk to each other. And at least

1309
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 7: in my experience on the reservation, everyone is friendly and nice.

1310
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 7: Most of the people I run into it with friendly

1311
01:14:55,240 --> 01:15:00,720
Speaker 7: and nice, and so I really like that guy I

1312
01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 7: ran into as a traditional artist, David Moreno, who does

1313
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 7: he runs an art program there. He's very lovely guy,

1314
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:13,600
Speaker 7: and we just were chatting, I think, and I was

1315
01:15:13,640 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 7: trying to encourage. I think I was trying to encourage

1316
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:17,760
Speaker 7: him to come on a bike ride with me, and like,

1317
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 7: you didn't have a bike, so then I was just

1318
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 7: trying to encourage, Like I was like, maybe I could

1319
01:15:21,920 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 7: get some bikes and come back. And I spoke to

1320
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 7: some people and diabetes prevention and we got some bikes

1321
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 7: and came back. But it like, obviously people's houses aren't

1322
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 7: super duper fancy, but they're fine. Like people have some

1323
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:36,840
Speaker 7: nice houses on the res like you know, I didn't

1324
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 7: grow up in a super fancy house, and like the

1325
01:15:40,080 --> 01:15:42,160
Speaker 7: houses that are not that distinct from those that I

1326
01:15:42,160 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 7: see in San Diego. It's beautiful too, like especially down

1327
01:15:48,160 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 7: if you go on the Autumn Reservation further down. We

1328
01:15:51,560 --> 01:15:55,120
Speaker 7: did a ride there in twenty nineteen, and we went

1329
01:15:55,120 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 7: out the night before from the Yaki Reservation with the

1330
01:15:58,040 --> 01:15:59,800
Speaker 7: group of us and we did like a big camp

1331
01:16:00,040 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 7: out and then we did it right the next day.

1332
01:16:03,240 --> 01:16:05,920
Speaker 7: Their roads are not quite as nice as the yucky

1333
01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:07,760
Speaker 7: roads we all got. We ran out of innertube because

1334
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 7: everyone got so many punctures, like it's it's yeah, it's

1335
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:13,400
Speaker 7: beautiful landscape.

1336
01:16:13,439 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 9: It's really gorgeous. I think the biggest shot to me

1337
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 9: was the donkeys.

1338
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:20,320
Speaker 7: The donkeys on the outun roads or something else, like

1339
01:16:20,479 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 7: just just wild ass donkeys that like at night it

1340
01:16:24,760 --> 01:16:28,720
Speaker 7: sounds like there is a murder occurring. It just makes

1341
01:16:28,760 --> 01:16:31,639
Speaker 7: these horrendous noises and like you puncture on your bike

1342
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:32,880
Speaker 7: and you go for a little bit of shade because

1343
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 7: it's very hot, and suddenly you realize like ten buddles

1344
01:16:35,479 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 7: like just chilling there too. So that was the weirdest thing.

1345
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:43,720
Speaker 7: But like I know, people shouldn't just walk onto reservations

1346
01:16:43,720 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 7: and start like trying to have their cultural immersion experience

1347
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 7: or whatever.

1348
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 9: That's that's a bit cringe.

1349
01:16:48,520 --> 01:16:51,800
Speaker 7: But yeah, like people equally shouldn't think that it's a

1350
01:16:51,840 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 7: scary or different or dangerous, like Arizona feels foreign to me,

1351
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:58,960
Speaker 7: Like I go to Phoenix and that is that is

1352
01:16:58,960 --> 01:17:04,559
Speaker 7: a scary experience for other reasons, but like I I've

1353
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,240
Speaker 7: always felt very welcome and comfortable there.

1354
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 10: Yeah, I can just add one more thing. Oh sorry,

1355
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,719
Speaker 10: just I think the other that's a great point, James.

1356
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:15,559
Speaker 10: But like the striking part for me too was that

1357
01:17:15,600 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 10: I felt very Yeah, I felt very welcomed when I

1358
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 10: was there, And they like have a very soft way

1359
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 10: of speaking, and I'm like a loud, annoying American and

1360
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 10: so like have are obviously they're American as well, but

1361
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:30,920
Speaker 10: I have kind of a loud voice, and they're very

1362
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 10: soft spoken and so gentle and so just like appreciative

1363
01:17:35,320 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 10: and I kind of For me, I was like, wow,

1364
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 10: this is like amazing that you have resiliency to feel

1365
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 10: appreciative when like I don't feel like you should you know,

1366
01:17:43,240 --> 01:17:46,519
Speaker 10: feel grateful or appreciative to me, I thought that was

1367
01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 10: like my the most streaking.

1368
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:48,759
Speaker 6: That I felt.

1369
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:52,719
Speaker 4: Mollie's so nice. She's like trying to apologize for being Listen,

1370
01:17:52,720 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 4: you're talking to two podcasters like obnoxiouses are nature, It's

1371
01:17:56,400 --> 01:18:03,280
Speaker 4: like part of our You don't need to lay yourself there, Victor,

1372
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:05,720
Speaker 4: You've already touched on this a little bit, But do

1373
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:10,960
Speaker 4: you find yourself still still dispelling myths and stereotypes about

1374
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 4: Native Americans even at medical school?

1375
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:15,360
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, all the time.

1376
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:21,519
Speaker 5: You know, we talked about the medical misconceptions and and

1377
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:26,759
Speaker 5: and those things. But I think there it's it's like,

1378
01:18:26,760 --> 01:18:29,719
Speaker 5: like I said, I feel like the American educational system

1379
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:32,840
Speaker 5: it left so much room for interpretation and what it

1380
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 5: did give was and a lot of it wasn't true.

1381
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 5: But I think what I'm really battling is that people

1382
01:18:39,400 --> 01:18:43,960
Speaker 5: just the level of exposure they have is so minimal

1383
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 5: that they're coming into these conversations and discussions with pretty

1384
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:54,160
Speaker 5: much almost nothing. And so the average American knows very

1385
01:18:54,320 --> 01:18:58,400
Speaker 5: very little about Native Americans. And when I say that,

1386
01:18:58,479 --> 01:19:01,240
Speaker 5: I don't mean Native American could culture because I don't

1387
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,200
Speaker 5: think anyone, any Native American really cares if they know

1388
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 5: our culture or not. In fact, they might even protect it.

1389
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:13,920
Speaker 5: But we're talking about what is the experience of Native

1390
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 5: Americans in this country, what happened, what were the policies,

1391
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,479
Speaker 5: what are the issues that are still going on today.

1392
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 5: You know, there's the level of education. It's just not

1393
01:19:25,600 --> 01:19:28,439
Speaker 5: to the point where I find we can even have

1394
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:32,160
Speaker 5: these discussions, discussions that we need to have. So I

1395
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 5: think the most taxing thing on me is that whenever

1396
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:39,759
Speaker 5: I talk about Indigenous experiences or anything related to Indigenous health,

1397
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:44,280
Speaker 5: I have to give so much background that every time

1398
01:19:44,479 --> 01:19:47,680
Speaker 5: I have to educate someone on you know, what is colonization,

1399
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:53,080
Speaker 5: what happened, and the very basics of I think that

1400
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:57,479
Speaker 5: should be basic in this country, all these basics, and

1401
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 5: by that time, you know, I think people have gotten

1402
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 5: so much information that maybe they didn't know before.

1403
01:20:04,439 --> 01:20:05,600
Speaker 11: They get overwhelmed.

1404
01:20:06,200 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 5: And these things can also be very touchy subjects, I

1405
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 5: think because we haven't been bold enough in the US

1406
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 5: to actually just talk about them.

1407
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 11: And I think.

1408
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:22,600
Speaker 5: People, you know, might be a little afraid to acknowledge

1409
01:20:22,600 --> 01:20:26,160
Speaker 5: these things and somewhere inside. And I think what would

1410
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 5: have helped with that is if they were exposed to

1411
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:34,160
Speaker 5: it in you know, starting in elementary school history, starting

1412
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 5: in middle school, high school, all of these things I

1413
01:20:37,240 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 5: think will make well, we need to start doing that

1414
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 5: in the educational system if we're really going to make progress.

1415
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:47,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, as like someone who teaches history, oh, it has

1416
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,639
Speaker 7: tour history. I think that's very true, and sadly it's

1417
01:20:50,840 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 7: only getting worse, like places like Florida, right and making

1418
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,640
Speaker 7: it harder and harder to talk about that. But I

1419
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 7: think when people come to need so like I teach

1420
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:04,559
Speaker 7: a community college course, an American history course, and I

1421
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:07,840
Speaker 7: think when people come to that course, I mean California,

1422
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 7: like many of them, for instance, could not name the

1423
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:14,280
Speaker 7: tribe who's the cancestral and current homelands they are sitting

1424
01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:19,080
Speaker 7: in and learning. And then obviously to understand those experiences,

1425
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 7: you have to have a name for them, right, And

1426
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 7: if you don't have a name for the people, then

1427
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,719
Speaker 7: you're a long way from understanding, I guess. But it's

1428
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 7: something that's still desperately lacking in the American education system.

1429
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 7: And it doesn't seem like people are pushing hard enough

1430
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 7: to get that rectified. Like it's yeah, it's a very

1431
01:21:41,040 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 7: big gap even in places, you know, like you could

1432
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:48,559
Speaker 7: be at school in Arizona, like you could be an

1433
01:21:48,560 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 7: hour from some of the biggest reservations in the United States,

1434
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 7: right the Art tim and the Navajo, and maybe not

1435
01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:58,840
Speaker 7: an hour. Everything's a long way away in Arizona. But

1436
01:21:59,120 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 7: and and not understand anything about those people who lived

1437
01:22:02,800 --> 01:22:08,800
Speaker 7: experience if you're in Scottsdale.

1438
01:22:06,680 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 4: In the Bay Area. I've grown up in the San

1439
01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:11,679
Speaker 4: Francisco Bay Area and I didn't I knew very little

1440
01:22:11,840 --> 01:22:15,000
Speaker 4: about the Native people that were here until my one

1441
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 4: of my oldest son had to do a project here

1442
01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:21,320
Speaker 4: in San Francisco on the Miwalk tribe. And then only

1443
01:22:21,360 --> 01:22:22,800
Speaker 4: then did I learn. I'm like, oh my god, they

1444
01:22:22,840 --> 01:22:26,120
Speaker 4: were everywhere here. You know, there's so much the lonely tribe.

1445
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:30,160
Speaker 4: So even here, you know, which is a relatively progressive,

1446
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:34,960
Speaker 4: not Floridian system, you know, did I not learn a

1447
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:38,200
Speaker 4: lot about that? But I also, Victor, I also hear you, like,

1448
01:22:38,439 --> 01:22:42,000
Speaker 4: I know it must be exhausting, and we appreciate you

1449
01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:43,760
Speaker 4: coming on to talk to us about it. James and

1450
01:22:43,800 --> 01:22:46,040
Speaker 4: I have talked about this before. It's it's something that

1451
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:48,519
Speaker 4: I at least grapple with sometimes, like in terms of

1452
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:50,840
Speaker 4: like bringing on guests, you know, like I want people

1453
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 4: to talk about these things that are difficult and sometimes

1454
01:22:55,160 --> 01:22:57,439
Speaker 4: maybe even a little traumatic to like talk about. But

1455
01:22:57,479 --> 01:22:59,760
Speaker 4: there's this balance of like, well, I want the people

1456
01:22:59,800 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 4: who experience it know the most about it to speak

1457
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,400
Speaker 4: about it, but also the one to keep re exposing

1458
01:23:04,439 --> 01:23:08,800
Speaker 4: people to like the same exhausting trauma every time, you know,

1459
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 4: it becomes a tough thing for me at least to

1460
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 4: figure out in balance, you know.

1461
01:23:14,640 --> 01:23:18,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely, Yeah, I think you know, these podcasts are

1462
01:23:18,760 --> 01:23:21,640
Speaker 5: a great way to do that, to have these discussions

1463
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,160
Speaker 5: because it actually I think it takes away from the

1464
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:29,120
Speaker 5: taxation because it hits a lot of people at once,

1465
01:23:29,240 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 5: you know, and.

1466
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:35,479
Speaker 4: Listeners in the tens. We have listeners in the.

1467
01:23:37,720 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's better.

1468
01:23:40,320 --> 01:23:43,160
Speaker 9: We'll do a QR code so you can just be like, hey, hey,

1469
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:43,920
Speaker 9: check this out.

1470
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:50,040
Speaker 4: So so bit I'm sorry I have I have one

1471
01:23:50,120 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 4: last question for you. You know, you mentioned that you

1472
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 4: want to go back and practice on the reservation and

1473
01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:59,400
Speaker 4: be a part of the community again. Do you plan

1474
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:03,800
Speaker 4: on bringing in traditional healing components to your practice, and

1475
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 4: if so, are you going to do specialty training? Is

1476
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:08,880
Speaker 4: there like a version of a fellowship that you'll do

1477
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 4: for that.

1478
01:24:11,000 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I really want to do traditional practices. I'm not

1479
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:19,120
Speaker 5: a traditional healer myself, but I want to partner with them.

1480
01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 5: I feel like I have the connections to traditional people

1481
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,160
Speaker 5: to do stuff like that. One of the things like

1482
01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:30,280
Speaker 5: I really want to do is try to do a

1483
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:34,320
Speaker 5: lot of public health initiatives out of my practice, Like,

1484
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:37,440
Speaker 5: for instance, I want to try to find ways to

1485
01:24:37,479 --> 01:24:40,840
Speaker 5: help people grow their own food, start their own gardens,

1486
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:44,440
Speaker 5: do community gardens. I really want to get our traditional

1487
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 5: foods up and running again. And there's a lot of

1488
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:50,879
Speaker 5: people are already working on this, you know, which is amazing.

1489
01:24:51,400 --> 01:24:53,679
Speaker 5: I just want to be of service to that effort,

1490
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,559
Speaker 5: and I think I think that is one of the

1491
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,120
Speaker 5: most important things right now. I also really want to

1492
01:24:59,160 --> 01:25:03,120
Speaker 5: do like public health initiatives around language revitalization. I think

1493
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:07,040
Speaker 5: language is so important when it comes to the mental

1494
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 5: health of Indigenous youth uh Indigenous. I believe that Indigenous

1495
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,200
Speaker 5: youth who know how to speak their language are more

1496
01:25:14,240 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 5: mentally strong during the continuing tides of colonization that they

1497
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:23,520
Speaker 5: face in this Western world. If they have their language,

1498
01:25:24,000 --> 01:25:27,479
Speaker 5: I think that that's huge in terms of resilience as

1499
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:32,720
Speaker 5: culture as well. I think, you know, finding ways to

1500
01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:37,679
Speaker 5: to sort of support culture as medicine, culture as prevention,

1501
01:25:38,520 --> 01:25:43,000
Speaker 5: participating in ceremonies, as you know, making it you know,

1502
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:46,880
Speaker 5: very apparent that to to your audience and to the

1503
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:51,200
Speaker 5: world that that that is protective of Indigenous health, indigenous

1504
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 5: mental health, and so that you know, there's all these

1505
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:57,120
Speaker 5: facets of traditional traditional ways of life that we're all

1506
01:25:57,240 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 5: very healthy to us. And I think a huge part

1507
01:25:59,840 --> 01:26:03,519
Speaker 5: of the battle is that we're still having right now

1508
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:09,240
Speaker 5: because the colonization is revitalizing those things, and then those things,

1509
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 5: you know, the more that they're revitalized, the more that

1510
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 5: we decolonize, the healthier we're going to be. But at

1511
01:26:14,320 --> 01:26:18,080
Speaker 5: the same time, recognizing that western medicine can also be

1512
01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:22,280
Speaker 5: very effective too, if it's just properly funded and if

1513
01:26:22,320 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 5: the service is effective. And so that's the other the

1514
01:26:25,200 --> 01:26:27,160
Speaker 5: other side of the coin that I want to be

1515
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:28,360
Speaker 5: working on as well.

1516
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 4: Oh excellent, man.

1517
01:26:31,320 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, one thing I wanted to touch on before we

1518
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,320
Speaker 7: finish is because it seems relatively current and newsy right is.

1519
01:26:39,120 --> 01:26:41,920
Speaker 7: And I think Victor my next one point that like

1520
01:26:42,080 --> 01:26:45,160
Speaker 7: colonization isn't a thing that stopped. It's a thing that

1521
01:26:45,200 --> 01:26:50,600
Speaker 7: we keep doing like we not we including Victor, but

1522
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:52,320
Speaker 7: you know, like we people like me.

1523
01:26:53,280 --> 01:26:53,439
Speaker 4: Like.

1524
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 9: The Indian Chaid Welfare Act.

1525
01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,479
Speaker 7: Right, EQUA is a thing that the Zippering Court is

1526
01:27:00,880 --> 01:27:05,160
Speaker 7: like set up to take a swing at. And I

1527
01:27:05,240 --> 01:27:07,600
Speaker 7: know that that is an area of great concern to

1528
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 7: many people. And I was just in a tribal building

1529
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:14,560
Speaker 7: last week looking at books for Yaki children right to

1530
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:17,439
Speaker 7: help them stay connected with their culture if they're in

1531
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,760
Speaker 7: a family which is not a tribal family. Can you,

1532
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:25,840
Speaker 7: if you feel comfortable, explain what IQUA is and then

1533
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 7: the damage it does to young people to be pulled

1534
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 7: away from their culture and sort of get this little

1535
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:35,680
Speaker 7: active conversation that happens every time that happens.

1536
01:27:36,360 --> 01:27:38,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up, because colonization is

1537
01:27:38,720 --> 01:27:42,320
Speaker 5: definitely continuing. For instance, we think about the Black Hills

1538
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:45,679
Speaker 5: in South Dakota and the gold mining, the gold rush there, Well,

1539
01:27:45,760 --> 01:27:51,479
Speaker 5: there's still dozens of gold mining permits that are pending

1540
01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:54,240
Speaker 5: right now in the Black Hills. There are dozens of

1541
01:27:54,240 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 5: gold mines still operating there, and then La Coda and

1542
01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:01,200
Speaker 5: Dakota are still fighting for the Black Hills. Uh it's

1543
01:28:01,240 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 5: just one instance. We see that all across the United States.

1544
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:07,240
Speaker 5: And I think when it comes to the Indian Child

1545
01:28:07,280 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 5: Wealth for ACT, that's another really good example. Uh So,

1546
01:28:09,960 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 5: basically the Indian Child Wealth for ACT if if a

1547
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:21,680
Speaker 5: Native child is in the foster care system, and basically

1548
01:28:21,760 --> 01:28:27,800
Speaker 5: it helps to uh to support those children to find

1549
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 5: a placement with a family who is either who is

1550
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:36,400
Speaker 5: from their tribe, from their cultural background. And the reasoning

1551
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:41,840
Speaker 5: behind that is because they to number one to to

1552
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 5: stop the history of assimilation when it comes to taking

1553
01:28:47,080 --> 01:28:51,920
Speaker 5: Native children from their families. And we know about that,

1554
01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,240
Speaker 5: you know, through the US boarding school system. That was

1555
01:28:55,320 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 5: one example, but it kind of transitioned at a point

1556
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 5: once once boarding schools were terminated, those forced boarding schools,

1557
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 5: it kind of transitioned into the foster care system. And

1558
01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:11,360
Speaker 5: at one point a huge proportion of Native children were

1559
01:29:11,400 --> 01:29:15,280
Speaker 5: in foster care and they were being placed with white families,

1560
01:29:15,920 --> 01:29:19,320
Speaker 5: and those white families were not exposing them to their

1561
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:26,000
Speaker 5: cultural background, and that in itself was potentiating assimilation because

1562
01:29:26,640 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 5: that's another Native child dozens of Native children, thousands of

1563
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:34,920
Speaker 5: Native children who don't know their language, their culture because

1564
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 5: they've been removed from community due to systemic factors. Right,

1565
01:29:39,560 --> 01:29:42,559
Speaker 5: And so this bill it doesn't say, oh, you can

1566
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 5: only go with a Native family. It helps to ensure

1567
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:51,200
Speaker 5: that if there is a suitable Native family from their tribe,

1568
01:29:51,600 --> 01:29:54,479
Speaker 5: that they will get first priority because they know that

1569
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:59,040
Speaker 5: culture is also very important to Indigenous child wellbeing as well.

1570
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 5: The battle right now is being brought on by this

1571
01:30:04,479 --> 01:30:09,200
Speaker 5: lawsuit that primarily handles like mining and oil companies, but

1572
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 5: they're taking this Indian Child Welfare Act lawsuit pro bono

1573
01:30:14,120 --> 01:30:17,040
Speaker 5: because if you can get rid of the Indian Child

1574
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 5: Welfare Act on the basis that they're claiming, it's racism, right,

1575
01:30:23,240 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 5: they're claiming that Native people are getting some unjust preferential

1576
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:34,360
Speaker 5: treatment when it comes to adopting Native children over white

1577
01:30:34,360 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 5: people on the basis of race. Where that falls short

1578
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 5: is that the basis of the Indian Child Welfare Act

1579
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:47,479
Speaker 5: is that Indigenous peoples are not a race. They're sovereign nations.

1580
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 5: They have a political status distinct from all any other

1581
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:54,800
Speaker 5: race in the US. And that is the basis that

1582
01:30:54,880 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 5: tribes are arguing for that, Hey, we have this political status.

1583
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 5: We're a tribal government. We have the rights to raise

1584
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:04,519
Speaker 5: our children, we have the rights to teach our children

1585
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:07,240
Speaker 5: to make sure they grow up in community with our culture.

1586
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:10,599
Speaker 5: That's not a race issue. That's a political issue. That's

1587
01:31:10,600 --> 01:31:13,360
Speaker 5: a that that relates to our political status as a

1588
01:31:13,360 --> 01:31:16,559
Speaker 5: tribal nation, as a sovereign nation. And so they're going

1589
01:31:16,640 --> 01:31:19,839
Speaker 5: to be battling that in court. But if the Supreme

1590
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:25,000
Speaker 5: Court decides that this Indian Child Welfare Act is you know,

1591
01:31:25,280 --> 01:31:29,920
Speaker 5: racist or discriminatory based on race, it means that a

1592
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:34,800
Speaker 5: number of other bills, another under of other things in

1593
01:31:34,840 --> 01:31:40,640
Speaker 5: the law that that, for instance, that exist due to

1594
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 5: the political status of Indigenous nations have the potential to

1595
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:48,920
Speaker 5: also be thrown out on the basis of racial discrimination.

1596
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 4: And that I.

1597
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 5: Think, will you know, will lead to a lot of

1598
01:31:53,000 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 5: a lot more land grabs, a lot more a lot

1599
01:31:56,240 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 5: less services being provided, for instance, like the Indian Health

1600
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:02,160
Speaker 5: Service for ants. They might say, oh, why do Native

1601
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 5: Americans get this healthcare?

1602
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:04,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, they might.

1603
01:32:05,160 --> 01:32:08,559
Speaker 5: They might start taking down a whole bunch of other

1604
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 5: things that are really important to us. So it's really

1605
01:32:12,280 --> 01:32:13,639
Speaker 5: it's a huge issue right now.

1606
01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:16,920
Speaker 4: It's a troubling time, and I could see how people

1607
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:19,040
Speaker 4: in the past might have said, oh, don't worry, that

1608
01:32:19,080 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 4: won't happen. I think it's pretty clear that these things

1609
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:24,040
Speaker 4: can happen pretty quickly, pretty aggressively.

1610
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:24,360
Speaker 3: Now.

1611
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:26,840
Speaker 4: I think the last couple of years I've showed a

1612
01:32:26,880 --> 01:32:30,760
Speaker 4: lot of people that things can get worse somehow, you know,

1613
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:34,040
Speaker 4: and that these things can be taken more and more

1614
01:32:34,120 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 4: can be taken from people that have already had so

1615
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:38,080
Speaker 4: much taken from them.

1616
01:32:38,120 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 7: So I guess I like to finish off normally instead

1617
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:44,600
Speaker 7: of just being like, here is some sad shit and

1618
01:32:44,680 --> 01:32:47,120
Speaker 7: just pointing to it and then kind of like dropping

1619
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:50,800
Speaker 7: the mic, asking people how they can do something to

1620
01:32:50,840 --> 01:32:53,920
Speaker 7: stand in solidarity. So like, if either of you want

1621
01:32:53,960 --> 01:32:56,400
Speaker 7: to mention, I know this pass is flat. There are

1622
01:32:56,439 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 7: other attempts to appropriate and colonize indigenous land sake, it's based,

1623
01:33:00,479 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 7: it's a fucking border wall, it's bulldozing Kumii graveyards.

1624
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:05,559
Speaker 9: Like, as I'm talking to you.

1625
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,200
Speaker 7: Are there ways that people can stand the solidarity with

1626
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 7: indigenous communities.

1627
01:33:10,880 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 6: I'll go first because Victor will have a better answer

1628
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 6: than me, and he can. He can. You can jump

1629
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:15,879
Speaker 6: in after.

1630
01:33:15,760 --> 01:33:20,679
Speaker 10: Me, but I think as like a low level entry thing.

1631
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:23,560
Speaker 6: That people can do, and it kind of touches.

1632
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:26,559
Speaker 10: On how trying to remove the burden on asking for

1633
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:30,400
Speaker 10: education and doing the education yourself. For that what people

1634
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:33,360
Speaker 10: can do is just you can read books by Native

1635
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 10: authors and that teaches you a lot of history. And

1636
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:39,760
Speaker 10: there's like some incredible Native authors who are writing beautiful

1637
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 10: stories that are weaved with fact and fiction, but books,

1638
01:33:44,520 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 10: and then like Native Medias Reservation Dogs is like a

1639
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:51,800
Speaker 10: TV show on Hulu that is.

1640
01:33:51,760 --> 01:33:54,479
Speaker 6: A really great show that everyone should watch.

1641
01:33:55,520 --> 01:33:57,479
Speaker 10: So I think you can do some like easy things

1642
01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 10: that just takes remove some of the needing to be

1643
01:34:02,080 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 10: taught to on yourselves and you can just learn about

1644
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:05,759
Speaker 10: what we're missing.

1645
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:07,599
Speaker 6: So those are like very very easy.

1646
01:34:07,640 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 10: And then in terms of like just from my point

1647
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:13,280
Speaker 10: of view as a as an MD, there are a

1648
01:34:13,280 --> 01:34:18,200
Speaker 10: lot of ways to get involved because these the reservations

1649
01:34:18,200 --> 01:34:22,240
Speaker 10: are chronically understaffed. They're just like rural medicine IHS or

1650
01:34:22,280 --> 01:34:26,160
Speaker 10: not IHS. Royal medicine is very under understaffed in in

1651
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 10: our country, and so there's always opportunities for doctors to

1652
01:34:31,080 --> 01:34:35,080
Speaker 10: go and work and it's like valuable and amazing for

1653
01:34:35,200 --> 01:34:35,719
Speaker 10: us and.

1654
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 6: For the community to be able to do so.

1655
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:40,600
Speaker 10: There are ways to do that through local companies and

1656
01:34:40,680 --> 01:34:43,759
Speaker 10: directly through the through the IHS sites.

1657
01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:51,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think I think conversation. You know,

1658
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 5: I would love if white allies would talk to their

1659
01:34:57,840 --> 01:35:01,519
Speaker 5: family members and their friends. And I think there are

1660
01:35:01,560 --> 01:35:05,400
Speaker 5: a lot of moments where in these day to day

1661
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:11,320
Speaker 5: personal interactions when Natives might come up to stand up,

1662
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:15,160
Speaker 5: like if you hear something that is ignorant, you hear

1663
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,160
Speaker 5: something that might be racist, to stand up to the

1664
01:35:18,200 --> 01:35:22,320
Speaker 5: people that you know in your own circles and say, hey,

1665
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:25,559
Speaker 5: no that's not correct. To talk to your friends and

1666
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 5: family about what you learned with regard to colonization. Are

1667
01:35:30,320 --> 01:35:33,840
Speaker 5: the issues that Native American people face because I think

1668
01:35:33,880 --> 01:35:35,960
Speaker 5: some of the people that we listen to the most

1669
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:39,719
Speaker 5: are the people that we love, our friends and our family,

1670
01:35:39,760 --> 01:35:41,080
Speaker 5: and I think there needs to be a lot more

1671
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:45,599
Speaker 5: conversation in those spaces, a lot more accountability, because I

1672
01:35:45,720 --> 01:35:49,080
Speaker 5: know that it can be very hard when difficult things

1673
01:35:49,160 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 5: come up in those personal interactions to challenge someone. But

1674
01:35:54,400 --> 01:35:57,120
Speaker 5: I think that is where that sort of thing can

1675
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,400
Speaker 5: really move the needle in the long run. And I

1676
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:03,840
Speaker 5: think that sometimes people just choose to stay silent, and

1677
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 5: I would like that to change this.

1678
01:36:06,560 --> 01:36:09,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, very well said. That seems like a fantastic place

1679
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:13,920
Speaker 4: to close it here. Thank you both so much for

1680
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 4: coming on and hanging out with us. You've been listening

1681
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:20,840
Speaker 4: to the House of Pod and it could happen here.

1682
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:23,840
Speaker 4: Let's get some plugs in for you guys. Can you

1683
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:26,680
Speaker 4: Let's start with you, Victor. Tell us where people can

1684
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 4: find you or plug anything you want to plug.

1685
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 11: Come to the rest. Just ask for me.

1686
01:36:35,800 --> 01:36:36,840
Speaker 4: Original Facebook.

1687
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, my Instagram and Twitter are VLO Carmen v l

1688
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:44,439
Speaker 5: O c.

1689
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 4: A R M E N very cool and Molly.

1690
01:36:47,840 --> 01:36:50,840
Speaker 10: I exited the Twitter sphere after Elon Musk took over,

1691
01:36:50,960 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 10: so I'm off, but you can find me in Sacramento.

1692
01:36:56,520 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 4: All right. You guys have been so awesome. Thank you

1693
01:37:00,240 --> 01:37:02,519
Speaker 4: for coming on. We hope to talk again sometime.

1694
01:37:03,280 --> 01:37:17,520
Speaker 12: Thank you.

1695
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:20,439
Speaker 4: Welcome Dick, it happened here.

1696
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 14: I'm your host, Na Wong, and today we're going to

1697
01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:26,760
Speaker 14: be talking about something a little bit different. In the

1698
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:30,479
Speaker 14: last half decade, a growing political focus on China has

1699
01:37:30,479 --> 01:37:34,720
Speaker 14: transformed a cottage industry of American China watchers into a

1700
01:37:34,800 --> 01:37:39,519
Speaker 14: sprawling metropolis of pseudoanalysis, A veritable machine that turns out

1701
01:37:39,600 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 14: racialized fear of the Chinese other and transforms it into

1702
01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:47,719
Speaker 14: economic papers that close with quote unquote policy solutions about

1703
01:37:47,720 --> 01:37:51,720
Speaker 14: the so called China problem. In these circles, a consensus

1704
01:37:51,760 --> 01:37:55,160
Speaker 14: is emerging about what they call Chinese state capitalism and

1705
01:37:55,200 --> 01:37:59,800
Speaker 14: its supposed risk of the United States. China's economy, they are,

1706
01:38:00,520 --> 01:38:02,400
Speaker 14: is not a free market economy like that of the

1707
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:06,960
Speaker 14: United States. Instead, China's large array of state owned industries

1708
01:38:07,000 --> 01:38:10,679
Speaker 14: and its willingness to use investments to incentivize specific kinds

1709
01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:15,439
Speaker 14: of research while protecting companies from pure market competition means

1710
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:18,799
Speaker 14: that the state, and not the market, dictates the course

1711
01:38:18,840 --> 01:38:23,000
Speaker 14: of the Chinese economy. Under these assumptions, the Chinese economy

1712
01:38:23,040 --> 01:38:26,040
Speaker 14: poses two major threats to American companies in the American

1713
01:38:26,120 --> 01:38:30,479
Speaker 14: security state. First, state owned industries subsidized by the state

1714
01:38:30,560 --> 01:38:34,920
Speaker 14: will inevitably outcompete American companies because American companies can't match

1715
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:37,639
Speaker 14: the sheer quantity of capital held by the Chinese state,

1716
01:38:38,080 --> 01:38:41,040
Speaker 14: which violates the fairness and competitiveness of the free market

1717
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:45,559
Speaker 14: by making companies compete on unequal grounds. Second, the close

1718
01:38:45,600 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 14: ties between the Chinese government and state owned industries and

1719
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:52,519
Speaker 14: even private Chinese companies means that their technology will be

1720
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:55,759
Speaker 14: used by the CCP to strengthen its military by stealing

1721
01:38:55,800 --> 01:39:00,560
Speaker 14: American technology. The problem with this consensus at a fundamental

1722
01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:04,400
Speaker 14: level is that it's utterly uninterested in how Chinese state

1723
01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 14: oued enterprise is known as SOEs, actually functioned. And this

1724
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:12,639
Speaker 14: is a real problem because Chinese soos are not what

1725
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:16,320
Speaker 14: you or the people writing American forum policy think they are.

1726
01:39:17,320 --> 01:39:19,360
Speaker 14: So today, we're going to take a dive into the

1727
01:39:19,400 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 14: belly of the state and figure out how soos actually

1728
01:39:22,280 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 14: function and determine what this actually does to the prevailing

1729
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 14: theories about how Chinese economy works and what it means

1730
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:34,400
Speaker 14: for both the American and Chinese working classes. But before

1731
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,840
Speaker 14: we get into the structure of the SOE, we need

1732
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:42,040
Speaker 14: to talk about state capitalism. State capitalism is an old term.

1733
01:39:42,240 --> 01:39:44,280
Speaker 14: Most of the people writing about it will trace it

1734
01:39:44,320 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 14: back to Lenin's New Economic Policy, a massive shift towards

1735
01:39:48,479 --> 01:39:51,879
Speaker 14: the market in the Soviet economy of the early twenties.

1736
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:57,519
Speaker 14: The New Economic policy relegalized private capitalist firms, albeit in

1737
01:39:57,560 --> 01:40:01,000
Speaker 14: a much reduced capacity, with a a very large state

1738
01:40:01,080 --> 01:40:04,599
Speaker 14: sector driving the economy as a whole. A condition Lenin

1739
01:40:04,680 --> 01:40:09,320
Speaker 14: dubbed state capitalism, but even using state capitalism to describe

1740
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 14: both the New Economic Plan and the current situation in

1741
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 14: China reveals a profound misunderstanding of both Lenin's NEP and

1742
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:21,719
Speaker 14: the modern Chinese economy. For one thing, during the NEP,

1743
01:40:22,400 --> 01:40:25,120
Speaker 14: state owned industries accounted for at least seventy percent of

1744
01:40:25,200 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 14: Soviet industrial output, increasing to seventy seven percent by the

1745
01:40:28,840 --> 01:40:32,759
Speaker 14: end of the policy. Meanwhile, despite the height behind Chinese

1746
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:37,000
Speaker 14: state capitalism, china state sector represents a measly forty percent

1747
01:40:37,040 --> 01:40:41,200
Speaker 14: of China's economy, uniquely high for a capitalist economy, but

1748
01:40:41,280 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 14: quite literally the inverse of the relationship between capitalist frames

1749
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 14: and the state. In the USSR that sixty percent of

1750
01:40:48,560 --> 01:40:51,400
Speaker 14: China's GDP is private and only forty percent is generated

1751
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:53,280
Speaker 14: by the state. And don't look too closely at that

1752
01:40:53,320 --> 01:40:55,760
Speaker 14: forty percent, because only thirty percent of it is from

1753
01:40:55,800 --> 01:40:58,920
Speaker 14: actual state industries. The other ten percent resulting from the

1754
01:40:58,920 --> 01:41:03,080
Speaker 14: regular function of the state itself. Shows what actually drives

1755
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:06,559
Speaker 14: a Chinese economy, not the state at all, but the market.

1756
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 14: This is very important because the story of the Chinese

1757
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,439
Speaker 14: economy in the last forty years is not simply the

1758
01:41:13,439 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 14: story of a state run command economy transforming into a

1759
01:41:16,200 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 14: market economy. It is also, and arguably primarily, the story

1760
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:25,040
Speaker 14: of the market consuming the state from the inside out.

1761
01:41:26,160 --> 01:41:28,599
Speaker 14: This becomes more clear the closer you look at how

1762
01:41:28,640 --> 01:41:32,360
Speaker 14: state owned enterprises are actually structured, and it is here

1763
01:41:32,479 --> 01:41:35,679
Speaker 14: the weakness of the very term state owned enterprise comes

1764
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:40,160
Speaker 14: into focus. Academics and journalists write about state owned enterprises

1765
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:44,040
Speaker 14: as if the word means one specific thing, but the

1766
01:41:44,080 --> 01:41:46,759
Speaker 14: reality is that there are an enormous number of different

1767
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:50,200
Speaker 14: kinds of sos, with different structures and different relationships to

1768
01:41:50,240 --> 01:41:54,240
Speaker 14: the state. When regular people think about state ownership, it

1769
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:57,920
Speaker 14: tends to invoke the specter of the USSR in a

1770
01:41:57,960 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 14: Soviet style SOE, and will take as an example of

1771
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:05,360
Speaker 14: Chinese SOE the Socialist period, which functions similarly. The firm

1772
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:10,080
Speaker 14: is literally a government department. For example, in nineteen seventy nine,

1773
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 14: China established the Bureau of Non ferest Metals and this

1774
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 14: is the best name you're going to get out of

1775
01:42:16,160 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 14: the CCP. In this entire episode, that bureau was in

1776
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 14: charge of running a luninium production. The government ministry simply

1777
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:26,479
Speaker 14: ran the mines and the refineries and the factories directly

1778
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:30,200
Speaker 14: and everyone working in the factory was a direct government

1779
01:42:30,280 --> 01:42:34,240
Speaker 14: employee paid by the state. This is also pretty close

1780
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,679
Speaker 14: to how the American post office is structured. But Soviet

1781
01:42:37,840 --> 01:42:41,800
Speaker 14: SOEs crucially were not firms that competed for money in

1782
01:42:41,840 --> 01:42:44,840
Speaker 14: the market. They worked towards a production plan and were

1783
01:42:44,840 --> 01:42:48,360
Speaker 14: assigned resources based on their output. In this way, they

1784
01:42:48,439 --> 01:42:51,559
Speaker 14: closer to a municipal water service than most modern SOEs.

1785
01:42:52,160 --> 01:42:54,560
Speaker 14: Their job, in theory was to make a thing or

1786
01:42:54,600 --> 01:42:59,679
Speaker 14: a service, not make money. Modern Chinese soez, despite sharing

1787
01:42:59,720 --> 01:43:04,040
Speaker 14: the same name as or socialist period predecessors, are very different.

1788
01:43:05,080 --> 01:43:08,640
Speaker 14: For one thing, modern Chinese SOEs, as well as a

1789
01:43:08,680 --> 01:43:11,400
Speaker 14: lot of other state owned companies like the Saudi government's

1790
01:43:11,439 --> 01:43:14,760
Speaker 14: oil companies Saudi A Ramco, are not directly part of

1791
01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:18,840
Speaker 14: the government at all. Instead, they're structured as regular corporations

1792
01:43:18,840 --> 01:43:22,320
Speaker 14: whose stock happens to be owned by the governments. This

1793
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:25,360
Speaker 14: shareholding relationship is one of the most common kinds of

1794
01:43:25,400 --> 01:43:29,280
Speaker 14: modern SOEs, but as we'll see, they make ownership and

1795
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:34,200
Speaker 14: management structures increasingly complex. The other major difference from Soviet

1796
01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:37,240
Speaker 14: firms is that companies like Saudi A Ramco and modern

1797
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:40,840
Speaker 14: Chinese soz are for profit companies. I don't exist to

1798
01:43:40,840 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 14: provide a service. They exist to make money. This gets

1799
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:47,880
Speaker 14: very weird very quickly. For one thing, while we tend

1800
01:43:47,920 --> 01:43:50,280
Speaker 14: to think of state owned enterprises as belonging to the

1801
01:43:50,360 --> 01:43:56,799
Speaker 14: national governments, municipal, provincial, and even disher and county governments

1802
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,400
Speaker 14: in China have their own SOEs. On a conception level,

1803
01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 14: this makes sense. China's economy is the size of a continent,

1804
01:44:03,680 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 14: and individual provinces have a geographic size, population, natural resources,

1805
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:11,479
Speaker 14: and economy of entire nations, which means that provincial soees

1806
01:44:11,520 --> 01:44:15,439
Speaker 14: can rival national firms. But this also means that state

1807
01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:19,040
Speaker 14: owned industries from different levels of government are directly competing

1808
01:44:19,080 --> 01:44:22,360
Speaker 14: with each other on the market. This is something beyond

1809
01:44:22,400 --> 01:44:25,560
Speaker 14: the experience of previous theorists of the state and capitalism.

1810
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:29,400
Speaker 14: Frederick Engels, the close friend of Karl Marx, was able

1811
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:33,879
Speaker 14: to predict the rise of capitalist state owned industries, writing quote.

1812
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:37,560
Speaker 14: At a further stage of evolution, this form also becomes insufficient.

1813
01:44:37,960 --> 01:44:41,040
Speaker 14: The official representative of the capitalist state will ultimately have

1814
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:45,400
Speaker 14: to undertake the direction of production. This necessity for conversion

1815
01:44:45,439 --> 01:44:48,280
Speaker 14: into state property is felt first in the great institutions

1816
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:53,040
Speaker 14: for intercourse and communication, the Post office, the telegrams the railways.

1817
01:44:53,720 --> 01:44:56,800
Speaker 14: If the crisis demonstrates the incapacity of the bourgeoisie for

1818
01:44:56,920 --> 01:45:00,960
Speaker 14: managing any longer modern productive forces, the transformation of the

1819
01:45:00,960 --> 01:45:04,400
Speaker 14: great establishment for production and distribution into joint stock companies

1820
01:45:04,400 --> 01:45:08,000
Speaker 14: and state property shows how unnecessary the bourgeoisie are for

1821
01:45:08,040 --> 01:45:11,120
Speaker 14: that purpose. All the social functions of the capitalists are

1822
01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:15,360
Speaker 14: now performed by salaried employees. The capitalist has no social

1823
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:19,960
Speaker 14: function than that of pocketing dividends, tearing off coupons, and

1824
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 14: gambling at the stock exchange with the different capitalists to

1825
01:45:23,320 --> 01:45:26,959
Speaker 14: spoil one another of their capital. At first, the capitalist

1826
01:45:27,000 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 14: mode of production forces out the workers. Now it forces

1827
01:45:30,240 --> 01:45:32,840
Speaker 14: out the capitalists and reduces them, just as it reduced

1828
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:36,160
Speaker 14: the workers to the ranks of the surflus population, although

1829
01:45:36,200 --> 01:45:39,600
Speaker 14: not immediately into those of the industrial reserve army. But

1830
01:45:39,680 --> 01:45:42,800
Speaker 14: angles imagined the state as a collective capitalist replacing the

1831
01:45:42,800 --> 01:45:46,440
Speaker 14: individual capitalist. What no one could have foreseen was capitalists

1832
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,280
Speaker 14: break was capitalism breaking the collective nature of the state

1833
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:53,080
Speaker 14: entirely hollowing it out until its chunks competed with each

1834
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:56,040
Speaker 14: other on the market. This is the state of modern

1835
01:45:56,120 --> 01:46:01,360
Speaker 14: Chinese soees. These SOEs are capitalist firms to market discipline.

1836
01:46:01,479 --> 01:46:04,040
Speaker 14: They can and will fail and go under if they

1837
01:46:04,040 --> 01:46:07,519
Speaker 14: aren't making enough money, and the government can and will

1838
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 14: tear them apart and force the still state owned pieces

1839
01:46:10,439 --> 01:46:14,080
Speaker 14: to compete against each other. These state owned industries also

1840
01:46:14,200 --> 01:46:17,000
Speaker 14: largely are not supposed to be monopolies. Firms that get

1841
01:46:17,040 --> 01:46:20,439
Speaker 14: too large and powerful can and will be broken up

1842
01:46:20,479 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 14: and the parts once again set to compete against each other.

1843
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:29,240
Speaker 14: Weirder still, these soees are also listed on the stock markets,

1844
01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:33,040
Speaker 14: meeting individual capitalists, and as we'll see later, even foreign

1845
01:46:33,080 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 14: firms can buy forty nine percent stakes and nominally state

1846
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:41,679
Speaker 14: owned industries. Now, if the state doing market competition against

1847
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:45,920
Speaker 14: itself wasn't weird enough for you, let me introduce another complication,

1848
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:50,880
Speaker 14: the State Owned Asset Supervision and Administration Commission of the

1849
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:54,519
Speaker 14: State Council. And know, the State Owned Asset Supervision and

1850
01:46:54,600 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 14: Administration Commission of the State Council is not a name

1851
01:46:57,240 --> 01:46:59,040
Speaker 14: that sounds any better in Chinese.

1852
01:46:59,120 --> 01:46:59,599
Speaker 9: If you have a.

1853
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:03,680
Speaker 14: Bureaucer rooted in Leninism, the product is a veritable corucopia

1854
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:06,360
Speaker 14: of the most absolutely dogshit name you've ever heard in

1855
01:47:06,400 --> 01:47:10,960
Speaker 14: your entire life. This commission is better owned for obvious reasons,

1856
01:47:11,000 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 14: as Sassak, and it is the government body that owns

1857
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:17,160
Speaker 14: the shares of most of the largest firms in China,

1858
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:21,400
Speaker 14: which are known as the national champions. Now you could

1859
01:47:21,439 --> 01:47:24,000
Speaker 14: be forgiven for thinking you now understand the structure of

1860
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:27,719
Speaker 14: Chinese soez. Sasak, which is a part of the state,

1861
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:31,280
Speaker 14: owns the SOEs. Bob's your uncle, Everyone goes home for

1862
01:47:31,320 --> 01:47:32,800
Speaker 14: the night, and the episode ends right here.

1863
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:35,760
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it is.

1864
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:39,200
Speaker 14: Way more convoluted than that. When I said Sasak owns

1865
01:47:39,200 --> 01:47:42,120
Speaker 14: the shares of the largest firms in China, that's only

1866
01:47:42,160 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 14: true in a technical sense. What Sasak actually owns are

1867
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,280
Speaker 14: the shares of massive holding companies, companies that exist on

1868
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:52,479
Speaker 14: paper but whose existence is purely dedicated to owning the

1869
01:47:52,520 --> 01:47:56,599
Speaker 14: shares of other companies. These holding companies own the shares

1870
01:47:56,640 --> 01:47:58,960
Speaker 14: of the publicly traded companies you might have heard of,

1871
01:47:59,040 --> 01:48:02,640
Speaker 14: like Sinopek China state owned oil companies. And this is

1872
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:05,559
Speaker 14: where the simplistic narrative of the Chinese soe, a single

1873
01:48:05,600 --> 01:48:09,080
Speaker 14: firm owned by the state under its direct political control,

1874
01:48:09,240 --> 01:48:13,080
Speaker 14: completely falls apart, because again, the state doesn't really own

1875
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:16,280
Speaker 14: these firms directly. What they own is a holding company

1876
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:22,280
Speaker 14: that owns the stock of the soees. That holding company, however,

1877
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:26,000
Speaker 14: is the actual basis of the organization of Chinese state ownership.

1878
01:48:26,560 --> 01:48:29,479
Speaker 14: The building blocks of the Chinese state economy aren't single

1879
01:48:29,520 --> 01:48:33,320
Speaker 14: state owned enterprises at all. The economy is actually composed

1880
01:48:33,360 --> 01:48:37,120
Speaker 14: of what are called business groups. American listeners may not

1881
01:48:37,200 --> 01:48:39,240
Speaker 14: be very familiar with business groups, but there are a

1882
01:48:39,240 --> 01:48:41,960
Speaker 14: common sight in what became known as the Tiger economies,

1883
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:45,560
Speaker 14: a series of economies that's all rabid industrial development in

1884
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:48,439
Speaker 14: the post World War two era, largely fueled by the

1885
01:48:48,479 --> 01:48:51,600
Speaker 14: demands of American military supply lines for its wars in

1886
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:56,440
Speaker 14: Korea and Vietnam. The two most infamous are the Japanese Keretsu,

1887
01:48:56,880 --> 01:48:59,840
Speaker 14: the successor to the old Japanese Zaibatsu that dominated the

1888
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:03,880
Speaker 14: word Japanese economy and which were to some extent broken

1889
01:49:03,960 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 14: up after the war, and Korean Chabel conglomerates. These massive

1890
01:49:08,360 --> 01:49:11,479
Speaker 14: groups of businesses are either owned by the same people

1891
01:49:11,560 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 14: or families in the case of the chabel, or linked

1892
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:20,000
Speaker 14: by mutual shareholding of each other's companies. Like Keatsu, the

1893
01:49:20,040 --> 01:49:23,719
Speaker 14: groups cooperate and coordinate the business strategy instead of competing

1894
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 14: against each other, which allows them to carry out a

1895
01:49:26,360 --> 01:49:29,520
Speaker 14: level of long term planning that's sometimes difficult for individual

1896
01:49:29,560 --> 01:49:33,759
Speaker 14: for profit companies. Chinese economists sent to Japan to study

1897
01:49:33,800 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 14: keatsu in the seventies and eighties returned with policy in hand,

1898
01:49:37,760 --> 01:49:40,639
Speaker 14: but the business groups that eventually emerged in the Chinese

1899
01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:43,840
Speaker 14: economy after an extended process of trial and error are

1900
01:49:43,880 --> 01:49:47,559
Speaker 14: different than their Korean or Japanese counterparts. Where chabel are

1901
01:49:47,640 --> 01:49:50,919
Speaker 14: organized around families, and keatsu are organized around a commercial

1902
01:49:50,960 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 14: bank that provides financing for the companies and the group,

1903
01:49:54,600 --> 01:49:58,040
Speaker 14: Chinese businesses are organized by those holding companies one hundred

1904
01:49:58,040 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 14: percent owned by Sassak and therefore the Chinese State. Those

1905
01:50:01,960 --> 01:50:06,280
Speaker 14: holding companies, also sometimes called core companies, own the majority

1906
01:50:06,320 --> 01:50:09,200
Speaker 14: of the stock of a variety of public betraded companies.

1907
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,000
Speaker 14: They also own a finance company which finances the companies

1908
01:50:13,360 --> 01:50:16,680
Speaker 14: and work with research institutes which carry out scientific and

1909
01:50:16,720 --> 01:50:20,920
Speaker 14: research development for the entire group. These research institutes, which

1910
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:24,519
Speaker 14: are often university affiliated, are technically nonprofit, but take money

1911
01:50:24,600 --> 01:50:27,719
Speaker 14: from the core companies in exchange for the research development

1912
01:50:27,720 --> 01:50:33,400
Speaker 14: they do. Chinese business groups are often massive, organizing hundreds

1913
01:50:33,400 --> 01:50:36,720
Speaker 14: of companies who also maintain trade and supply relations with

1914
01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:40,800
Speaker 14: hundreds more companies. Technically outside the group. These groups are

1915
01:50:40,840 --> 01:50:44,120
Speaker 14: organized by what's called articles of grouping, which the core

1916
01:50:44,160 --> 01:50:46,800
Speaker 14: holding company who owns the stock, and the rest of

1917
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:50,960
Speaker 14: the companies get those companies to sign. These articles form

1918
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:53,400
Speaker 14: a top down structure for the entire group that also

1919
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:56,920
Speaker 14: includes council and management bodies for the entire group, with

1920
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,640
Speaker 14: representatives from each of the companies in the group. This

1921
01:50:59,680 --> 01:51:03,240
Speaker 14: truck sure in theory, is how the CCP transmits policy

1922
01:51:03,320 --> 01:51:06,080
Speaker 14: down from single holding companies to all of their downstream

1923
01:51:06,120 --> 01:51:10,559
Speaker 14: subsidiaries and allies. And this is important because, at least

1924
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,639
Speaker 14: in theory, business groups are supposed to carry out government

1925
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:17,439
Speaker 14: industrial policy and economic developments. But in the real world

1926
01:51:17,680 --> 01:51:22,040
Speaker 14: this is a significant challenge because again, even individual business

1927
01:51:22,040 --> 01:51:24,840
Speaker 14: groups comprise hundreds of companies, and the states grasp on

1928
01:51:24,880 --> 01:51:27,720
Speaker 14: them as often tenuous, as seen by a wave of

1929
01:51:27,720 --> 01:51:30,559
Speaker 14: state owned companies that theoretically are supposed to make things

1930
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:34,160
Speaker 14: getting into real estate speculation a problem the CCP has

1931
01:51:34,160 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 14: been attempting to deal with since two thousand and eight

1932
01:51:36,240 --> 01:51:38,320
Speaker 14: and only really has gotten under control in the last

1933
01:51:38,320 --> 01:51:42,960
Speaker 14: two years. But you know who will not do housing

1934
01:51:43,080 --> 01:51:47,800
Speaker 14: speculation instead of making ads for you? It is the

1935
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:51,040
Speaker 14: companies and the products and services that support this podcast,

1936
01:51:52,680 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 14: and we're back. So confronted with the enormity of the

1937
01:51:56,000 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 14: scale of Chinese business groups, how does state control over

1938
01:51:59,600 --> 01:52:04,599
Speaker 14: these groups actually work? In theory, regulation operates around two channels.

1939
01:52:06,040 --> 01:52:09,519
Speaker 14: SASAK owns the holding companies, which allows it, in theory,

1940
01:52:09,560 --> 01:52:11,800
Speaker 14: to make decisions that a shareholder would be able to

1941
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:15,599
Speaker 14: make it a private corporation. There's also a parallel corpus

1942
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:18,759
Speaker 14: structure directly run by the party, and high ranking people

1943
01:52:18,800 --> 01:52:21,280
Speaker 14: in the corpus structure become party members and are sent

1944
01:52:21,320 --> 01:52:24,000
Speaker 14: to cadre trainings at places like the Central Party School

1945
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:28,360
Speaker 14: in Beijing. Meanwhile, people swap between SASSAK and high level

1946
01:52:28,400 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 14: manager positions, and the heads of large soees also have

1947
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:35,680
Speaker 14: positions in the Chinese government itself. Trying to explain all

1948
01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:37,800
Speaker 14: of the positions they have and the councils they're on

1949
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,800
Speaker 14: and their technical ministerial ranks is a disaster, because, oh boy,

1950
01:52:41,840 --> 01:52:44,439
Speaker 14: if you think the American government is confusing, try sorting

1951
01:52:44,439 --> 01:52:47,559
Speaker 14: out who does what in a party state. The moral

1952
01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:49,800
Speaker 14: of the story is that the CCP tries to keep

1953
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 14: control over the enormous number of companies it technically owns

1954
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:55,200
Speaker 14: through control of who gets appointed as the head of

1955
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:58,439
Speaker 14: soees through Sassak, which is directly a part of the state,

1956
01:52:58,920 --> 01:53:03,000
Speaker 14: and by integrating SOE heads into various government and party bodies.

1957
01:53:03,920 --> 01:53:07,599
Speaker 14: They also are somewhat embarrassingly given that they owe these

1958
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:10,120
Speaker 14: companies forced to directly go after them through the law

1959
01:53:10,680 --> 01:53:14,120
Speaker 14: and through the court system, which works sometimes and also

1960
01:53:14,200 --> 01:53:21,240
Speaker 14: doesn't work other times, but this relationship is multidirectional. Leewen

1961
01:53:21,360 --> 01:53:25,720
Speaker 14: Lynn and Curtis J. Milhoft, two scholars who've written extensively

1962
01:53:25,720 --> 01:53:29,559
Speaker 14: about Chinese corporate structure, argue convincingly that the deep integration

1963
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:33,400
Speaker 14: of the Party into soees after state owned industries have

1964
01:53:33,479 --> 01:53:38,080
Speaker 14: been corporatized, that is, turned from direct state industries run

1965
01:53:38,160 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 14: by state employees to profit seeking market corporations own through shares,

1966
01:53:43,479 --> 01:53:45,599
Speaker 14: was a way to buy the Party off and allow

1967
01:53:45,680 --> 01:53:48,400
Speaker 14: these firms to become more capitalists in ways that wouldn't

1968
01:53:48,439 --> 01:53:51,080
Speaker 14: have worked if the Party wasn't also getting rich off

1969
01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 14: of it. It's not just that China has state owned industries,

1970
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,240
Speaker 14: It's that the corportization of state owned industries has made

1971
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:02,519
Speaker 14: the Party and the Chinese state increasingly capitalists, and this

1972
01:54:02,600 --> 01:54:06,440
Speaker 14: raises another question. As the Chinese state grows more capitalists

1973
01:54:07,160 --> 01:54:10,040
Speaker 14: are public and private Chinese firms. Even all that different,

1974
01:54:11,040 --> 01:54:13,919
Speaker 14: private firms also have links to the state through equity

1975
01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:17,920
Speaker 14: have joint ventures with soees, where private companies will own

1976
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 14: a part of a company and an SOE will own

1977
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:23,400
Speaker 14: another part of a company. Private companies expand and get

1978
01:54:23,439 --> 01:54:27,679
Speaker 14: access to credit through partnering with local sos. In essence,

1979
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:30,000
Speaker 14: many of the things that are supposed to make sos

1980
01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:32,960
Speaker 14: different from private companies are shared by both. From the

1981
01:54:33,000 --> 01:54:39,200
Speaker 14: profit motive to state affiliation as milhop to put it quote, functionally,

1982
01:54:39,640 --> 01:54:43,960
Speaker 14: SOEs and large pos private enterprises in China share many

1983
01:54:43,960 --> 01:54:47,240
Speaker 14: similarities in the areas commonly thought to distinguish state owned

1984
01:54:47,280 --> 01:54:51,440
Speaker 14: firms from privately owned firms. Market access received of state subsidies,

1985
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:55,440
Speaker 14: proximity state power, and execution of the government's policy objectives.

1986
01:54:56,240 --> 01:54:58,760
Speaker 14: A complete account of Chinese state capitalists and much explain

1987
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:04,440
Speaker 14: these similarities. Even figuring out what legally is an SOE

1988
01:55:04,880 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 14: and what's technically still a private firm gets very weird,

1989
01:55:08,600 --> 01:55:09,600
Speaker 14: very fast.

1990
01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:11,440
Speaker 2: ZTE.

1991
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:16,040
Speaker 14: For example, a giant Chinese telecom telecom company is owned

1992
01:55:16,040 --> 01:55:18,920
Speaker 14: by a bewildering array of shell and holding companies, which

1993
01:55:18,960 --> 01:55:21,240
Speaker 14: are in turn owned by other companies, some of which

1994
01:55:21,240 --> 01:55:25,080
Speaker 14: are state owned. This is the level of ownership confusion

1995
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:28,040
Speaker 14: we're working at here. If the largest stake of a

1996
01:55:28,120 --> 01:55:31,280
Speaker 14: company is owned by a holding company that's owned in

1997
01:55:31,320 --> 01:55:34,160
Speaker 14: turn by a combination of two soees who own fifty

1998
01:55:34,200 --> 01:55:37,120
Speaker 14: one percent of the stock and a private investors company

1999
01:55:37,160 --> 01:55:39,600
Speaker 14: who owns forty nine percent of the stock, is the

2000
01:55:39,640 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 14: company state owned? And it gets worse in CTEs case

2001
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:46,760
Speaker 14: because even if you assume, okay, the majority stake in

2002
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:49,720
Speaker 14: this company is owned by an SOE, therefore it's state owned,

2003
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:52,280
Speaker 14: you would assume that the state or a state owned

2004
01:55:52,320 --> 01:55:54,040
Speaker 14: company would manage the corporation.

2005
01:55:54,200 --> 01:55:54,440
Speaker 9: Right.

2006
01:55:55,040 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 14: Wrong. In Zte's case, the soees worked out in agreement

2007
01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:02,920
Speaker 14: with the other investor such that ZT is technically state

2008
01:56:02,960 --> 01:56:07,520
Speaker 14: owned but privately managed. And this, it turns out, is

2009
01:56:07,560 --> 01:56:11,360
Speaker 14: a very common arrangement. Because of laws about foreign ownership

2010
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:14,360
Speaker 14: of companies operating in China, many state owned enterprises are

2011
01:56:14,360 --> 01:56:18,600
Speaker 14: actually joint partnerships between SOEs and foreign corporations, where the

2012
01:56:18,680 --> 01:56:20,880
Speaker 14: SOE owns fifty one percent of the stock and the

2013
01:56:20,920 --> 01:56:23,800
Speaker 14: foreign corporation owns forty nine percent of the stock while

2014
01:56:23,880 --> 01:56:27,760
Speaker 14: running the actual company in extracting profits from it even

2015
01:56:27,840 --> 01:56:31,560
Speaker 14: one hundred percent. Chinese firms, of which there are many,

2016
01:56:32,160 --> 01:56:35,000
Speaker 14: pose a challenge to the traditional conception of sos is

2017
01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:36,760
Speaker 14: run by the state for the good of the state

2018
01:56:36,800 --> 01:56:40,440
Speaker 14: and its political objectives. This goes back to their structure

2019
01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 14: as corporations the state owns by shareholding. This means, as

2020
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:49,160
Speaker 14: I've emphasized, that these sos aren't government ministries, their companies

2021
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:51,240
Speaker 14: trying to make a profit and are run by their

2022
01:56:51,240 --> 01:56:54,960
Speaker 14: own managers. These firms have a total workforce of seventy

2023
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:59,760
Speaker 14: million people, which makes direct regulation very difficult in practice.

2024
01:57:00,000 --> 01:57:02,280
Speaker 14: This means soez are a lot more autonomous in direct

2025
01:57:02,320 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 14: state control, even with all the state guards put in

2026
01:57:05,880 --> 01:57:08,800
Speaker 14: place than you'd think just from the word state owned industry.

2027
01:57:10,080 --> 01:57:13,000
Speaker 14: Another thing that makes soez more like private companies is

2028
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:15,720
Speaker 14: that money from soez goes back to the company and

2029
01:57:15,760 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 14: not to the state, to which it pays dividends but

2030
01:57:18,520 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 14: not much else. This means that soees have their own

2031
01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 14: revenue stream that's not dependent on state budget allocations. Meanwhile,

2032
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:30,280
Speaker 14: private firms like soos are operated by members of symbolic

2033
01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 14: party congresses, and private firms also get state subsidies and

2034
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:38,520
Speaker 14: access to loans from state banks. A common canard about

2035
01:57:38,560 --> 01:57:41,720
Speaker 14: the unfairness of anti competitive Chinese soez it applies to

2036
01:57:41,760 --> 01:57:44,840
Speaker 14: private firms as well, and at this point I must

2037
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:47,920
Speaker 14: point out that any company anywhere in the world can

2038
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:50,560
Speaker 14: make money by allying with the state and getting access

2039
01:57:50,560 --> 01:57:53,760
Speaker 14: to state resources. The US does this too, especially state

2040
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:55,680
Speaker 14: and local governments, who are all too happy to give

2041
01:57:55,800 --> 01:58:00,919
Speaker 14: enormous tax breaks and even provide prison labor to private companies. Meanwhile,

2042
01:58:01,000 --> 01:58:03,240
Speaker 14: tech companies like Amazon and Google are kept a float

2043
01:58:03,240 --> 01:58:05,800
Speaker 14: by massive government contract to say nothing of the American

2044
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:09,160
Speaker 14: defense industry. In the US, we call this corruption, or

2045
01:58:09,160 --> 01:58:11,280
Speaker 14: at least we used to, until it became legal to

2046
01:58:11,320 --> 01:58:14,400
Speaker 14: literally buy senators, a thing that nat Sek dipshits always

2047
01:58:14,440 --> 01:58:16,400
Speaker 14: seem to forget when they talk about the uniqueness of

2048
01:58:16,400 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 14: the Chinese economy and its relation to subsidies. There are

2049
01:58:19,680 --> 01:58:22,640
Speaker 14: obviously differences between the US and Chinese economies, but arguing

2050
01:58:22,680 --> 01:58:26,000
Speaker 14: that businesses having ties to the state which they extract

2051
01:58:26,000 --> 01:58:30,120
Speaker 14: benefits from constitutes a unique form of capitalism as incomprehensibly absurd.

2052
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:33,440
Speaker 14: None does this have stopped China watchers from the most

2053
01:58:33,520 --> 01:58:37,680
Speaker 14: rabid reactionaries and the most stalwart or self described style

2054
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:41,200
Speaker 14: wart communists to declare that China carries out something called

2055
01:58:41,240 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 14: industrial policy through its soees, which makes it different from

2056
01:58:44,360 --> 01:58:49,600
Speaker 14: other neoliberal states. So what is industrial policy? In theory,

2057
01:58:50,120 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 14: industrial policy refers to the state giving subsidies and funding

2058
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:57,560
Speaker 14: to specific corporations in order to pursue specific economic objectives

2059
01:58:57,560 --> 01:59:02,200
Speaker 14: the market wouldn't normally have pursued. These writers point the

2060
01:59:02,280 --> 01:59:06,280
Speaker 14: preferential treatment that Chinese SOEs have to credit and subsidies

2061
01:59:06,280 --> 01:59:08,400
Speaker 14: that they receive from the government as evidence of the

2062
01:59:08,400 --> 01:59:12,880
Speaker 14: subordination of the market to the political which they also

2063
01:59:12,920 --> 01:59:17,040
Speaker 14: claim is essentially a form of socialist state planning. My

2064
01:59:17,120 --> 01:59:19,200
Speaker 14: response to this is that I will accept that an

2065
01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:23,160
Speaker 14: soe getting a subsidy is socialist state planning the moment

2066
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:25,360
Speaker 14: they agree that the US as a socialist state because

2067
01:59:25,400 --> 01:59:29,320
Speaker 14: of its coren subsidies, despite writing about China somehow turning

2068
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:32,440
Speaker 14: everyone into an archical capitalist's. State subsidies in the form

2069
01:59:32,480 --> 01:59:36,320
Speaker 14: of direct cash transfers, tax breaks, preferential legal treatment, technology transfers,

2070
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:38,480
Speaker 14: and a thousand other forms of state aid are as

2071
01:59:38,480 --> 01:59:42,520
Speaker 14: old as capitalism itself and are pretty normal even under neoliberalism.

2072
01:59:43,400 --> 01:59:47,200
Speaker 14: People describe these measures as industrial policy using state favor

2073
01:59:47,320 --> 01:59:51,000
Speaker 14: to promote certain industries. But corn subsidies put lie to

2074
01:59:51,080 --> 01:59:54,080
Speaker 14: the claim that industrial policy is some unique thing of

2075
01:59:54,120 --> 01:59:57,400
Speaker 14: a new era emerging in capitalism that I totally disappeared

2076
01:59:57,400 --> 02:00:01,560
Speaker 14: with neoliberalism. American and other agricultural subsidies are one of

2077
02:00:01,600 --> 02:00:05,240
Speaker 14: the largest and most expensive industrial policy regimes in the world,

2078
02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:08,920
Speaker 14: constituting half a trillion dollars spent since nineteen fifty five.

2079
02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 14: They are also written in as exceptions to most of

2080
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:15,920
Speaker 14: the world's major free trade agreements. We also need to

2081
02:00:16,000 --> 02:00:20,320
Speaker 14: ask what is the difference between industrial policy, which is

2082
02:00:20,360 --> 02:00:23,440
Speaker 14: state strategic investment in certain sectors to develop their economy,

2083
02:00:23,680 --> 02:00:27,000
Speaker 14: and regulatory capture, where control over agencies or even the

2084
02:00:27,080 --> 02:00:32,120
Speaker 14: legislature itself is taken over by specialistist groups. This question

2085
02:00:32,240 --> 02:00:35,080
Speaker 14: sounds silly, but the results a company in a sector

2086
02:00:35,080 --> 02:00:37,400
Speaker 14: getting handed a pile of money in various forms by

2087
02:00:37,400 --> 02:00:42,440
Speaker 14: the state looks exactly the same. Those corn subsidies arguably

2088
02:00:42,480 --> 02:00:45,600
Speaker 14: are industrial policy. They were technically originally designed to ensure

2089
02:00:45,640 --> 02:00:48,280
Speaker 14: that the US would always have a supply of cheap food,

2090
02:00:48,520 --> 02:00:50,680
Speaker 14: But on the other hand, the real reason they exist

2091
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:53,520
Speaker 14: has nothing to do with planning whatsoever. They exist because

2092
02:00:53,520 --> 02:00:56,240
Speaker 14: the copala of legislatures from farming states have enough power

2093
02:00:56,280 --> 02:00:58,040
Speaker 14: to shut down both the House and the Senate if

2094
02:00:58,080 --> 02:01:00,880
Speaker 14: their demands aren't met. So every year the state bows

2095
02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:03,120
Speaker 14: to the corn lobby and pays them billions of dollars.

2096
02:01:04,480 --> 02:01:08,040
Speaker 14: So is this industrial policy or is it regulatory capture?

2097
02:01:08,600 --> 02:01:11,680
Speaker 14: And can the two even be distinguished? In capitalist countries?

2098
02:01:12,760 --> 02:01:14,879
Speaker 14: This is a question we need to take very seriously.

2099
02:01:14,920 --> 02:01:16,960
Speaker 14: In the Chinese case. At the same time, we ask

2100
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:21,040
Speaker 14: ourselves what is the actual objective of the Chinese state?

2101
02:01:21,720 --> 02:01:24,400
Speaker 14: Is it decoupling in retrenchment from the West or is

2102
02:01:24,400 --> 02:01:27,640
Speaker 14: it making money? There is significant evidence that it's the latter.

2103
02:01:28,160 --> 02:01:31,240
Speaker 14: For one thing, China receives an enormous amount of foreign

2104
02:01:31,280 --> 02:01:35,240
Speaker 14: direct investments, something that everyone seems to conveniently forgets, even

2105
02:01:35,280 --> 02:01:37,080
Speaker 14: though it was one of the key elements that fueled

2106
02:01:37,120 --> 02:01:39,600
Speaker 14: Chinese industrialization and plays a major role in the Chinese

2107
02:01:39,600 --> 02:01:44,160
Speaker 14: economy to this day. Meanwhile, US affiliates in China alone

2108
02:01:44,400 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 14: had over half a trillion dollars of sales just in

2109
02:01:47,040 --> 02:01:50,800
Speaker 14: twenty eighteen. While the focus of most analysis has been

2110
02:01:50,920 --> 02:01:53,680
Speaker 14: in flashy disputes between the US and China over their

2111
02:01:53,680 --> 02:01:57,560
Speaker 14: attempts to produce their own semiconductors. China has also liberalized

2112
02:01:57,600 --> 02:02:00,400
Speaker 14: its foreign investment laws in the last few years and

2113
02:02:00,520 --> 02:02:04,120
Speaker 14: allowed foreign companies and industries like insurance to operate directly

2114
02:02:04,120 --> 02:02:08,440
Speaker 14: instead of running through joint partnerships with Chinese stakeholders. Even

2115
02:02:08,480 --> 02:02:10,920
Speaker 14: the chairman of Sassak gave a speech in February about

2116
02:02:10,960 --> 02:02:14,000
Speaker 14: how his goal was to increase the profitability of Chinese soees.

2117
02:02:15,160 --> 02:02:18,720
Speaker 14: China is and will remain deeply enmeshed in the global

2118
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:23,240
Speaker 14: capitalist economy, and this, I think is as much as

2119
02:02:23,280 --> 02:02:27,080
Speaker 14: their unwillingness to grasp how sooes actually work. The fatal

2120
02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:30,839
Speaker 14: flaw of analysis of the Chinese economy and its obsession

2121
02:02:30,960 --> 02:02:34,800
Speaker 14: with formal state ownership. These analyzes are not a serious

2122
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,839
Speaker 14: attempt to look at the actual structure of the economic

2123
02:02:37,920 --> 02:02:41,880
Speaker 14: system the entire world, including China, lives under. There are

2124
02:02:41,920 --> 02:02:44,400
Speaker 14: several kinds of arguments that we need to look beyond

2125
02:02:44,440 --> 02:02:48,640
Speaker 14: formal ownership to understand capitalism. More broadly, there is a

2126
02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:52,120
Speaker 14: somewhat complicated Marxist argument which holds that while we talk

2127
02:02:52,120 --> 02:02:54,720
Speaker 14: about capitalism as a system where the ruling class owns

2128
02:02:54,720 --> 02:02:57,200
Speaker 14: the means of production, of the working class, which owns nothing,

2129
02:02:57,560 --> 02:03:00,440
Speaker 14: is forced to work for them that's not all capitalists is.

2130
02:03:01,360 --> 02:03:04,840
Speaker 14: Capitalism is also a series of commodity production, in which

2131
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 14: objects confront each other in the market and appear as

2132
02:03:08,360 --> 02:03:12,480
Speaker 14: commodities with their own discrete values based on abstract labor time.

2133
02:03:13,440 --> 02:03:17,080
Speaker 14: Generalize commodity production, which is people producing commodities from market

2134
02:03:17,120 --> 02:03:19,680
Speaker 14: exchange and not for other purposes, is the other core

2135
02:03:19,760 --> 02:03:24,200
Speaker 14: component of capitalism. And when you're dealing with generalized commodity production,

2136
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:27,120
Speaker 14: it doesn't really matter whether the company that owns the

2137
02:03:27,160 --> 02:03:29,840
Speaker 14: holding company that owns the company that makes the commodity

2138
02:03:30,320 --> 02:03:32,720
Speaker 14: is owned by the state or a hedge fund or

2139
02:03:32,760 --> 02:03:35,600
Speaker 14: a bank or a softeign wealth fund. It still reproduces

2140
02:03:35,600 --> 02:03:39,160
Speaker 14: commodity production, which means it's still just capitalism, but with

2141
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:44,520
Speaker 14: more complex formal ownership mechanisms. There's also the David Graeber argument,

2142
02:03:44,600 --> 02:03:47,560
Speaker 14: which goes, Okay, sure, state owned property is technically the

2143
02:03:47,600 --> 02:03:51,080
Speaker 14: property of the people TM, but try and actually go

2144
02:03:51,200 --> 02:03:53,360
Speaker 14: there and see how fast the cops show up and

2145
02:03:53,400 --> 02:03:57,400
Speaker 14: take you away. Just like private ownership, you still don't

2146
02:03:57,480 --> 02:04:01,480
Speaker 14: own public property any substantive sense. It's just controlled by

2147
02:04:01,520 --> 02:04:04,080
Speaker 14: a different group of bureaucrats with guns and focusing purely

2148
02:04:04,120 --> 02:04:06,680
Speaker 14: on ownership to define an economic system gets you nowhere.

2149
02:04:07,400 --> 02:04:10,440
Speaker 14: And then there's my argument, which is that people are

2150
02:04:10,480 --> 02:04:14,080
Speaker 14: absolutely obsessed with looking at capitalism from the perspective of capital,

2151
02:04:14,360 --> 02:04:16,600
Speaker 14: which means that they are absolutely obsessed with the question

2152
02:04:16,640 --> 02:04:19,480
Speaker 14: of ownership. But what happens if you look at so

2153
02:04:19,560 --> 02:04:22,320
Speaker 14: called state capitalism and the nature of state ownership from

2154
02:04:22,320 --> 02:04:25,800
Speaker 14: the perspective of the working class, Everything suddenly becomes a

2155
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:29,880
Speaker 14: lot clearer. Soe workers are a bit better off than

2156
02:04:29,960 --> 02:04:33,040
Speaker 14: not as we counterparts, but their jobs suck ass, their

2157
02:04:33,040 --> 02:04:35,680
Speaker 14: hours are long, and they don't make that much money.

2158
02:04:36,200 --> 02:04:38,480
Speaker 14: They are fully dependent on selling their labor to the

2159
02:04:38,520 --> 02:04:41,800
Speaker 14: market to survive. And all of these companies have hundreds

2160
02:04:41,840 --> 02:04:44,640
Speaker 14: of subsidiaries and suppliers with a variety of levels of

2161
02:04:44,680 --> 02:04:48,120
Speaker 14: state ownership, and people who work for those companies' lives

2162
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:51,360
Speaker 14: are even shittier. Meanwhile, the means of production and the

2163
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:55,520
Speaker 14: physical infrastructure of so called state capitalism was built by

2164
02:04:55,520 --> 02:04:58,240
Speaker 14: workers who were left with nothing but silicosis. After turning

2165
02:04:58,240 --> 02:05:00,880
Speaker 14: places like Shenzhen from fishingville is to a city with

2166
02:05:00,920 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 14: a population of over ten million people in less than

2167
02:05:03,960 --> 02:05:09,080
Speaker 14: thirty years. This is the ultimate truth of the Chinese economy,

2168
02:05:09,360 --> 02:05:11,960
Speaker 14: just as it is the ultimate truth of the American economy.

2169
02:05:13,320 --> 02:05:16,360
Speaker 14: We sell our lives for nothing, and our only reward

2170
02:05:16,440 --> 02:05:17,680
Speaker 14: in the end is to.

2171
02:05:17,680 --> 02:05:31,280
Speaker 15: Die amidst the wonders of the world that was never ours.

2172
02:05:36,240 --> 02:05:40,280
Speaker 1: Ah, welcome back to it could happen here a podcast.

2173
02:05:41,760 --> 02:05:46,640
Speaker 1: It's a podcast. I'm Robert Evans, and with me today

2174
02:05:46,800 --> 02:05:50,480
Speaker 1: is Garrison Davis and James Stout.

2175
02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:55,520
Speaker 2: Hello, a Canadian, a British woman and a text and

2176
02:05:55,640 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 2: walk into a podcast.

2177
02:05:57,040 --> 02:06:02,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, into a podcast. Only two of them can drink

2178
02:06:02,160 --> 02:06:02,560
Speaker 1: in a bar.

2179
02:06:03,960 --> 02:06:05,920
Speaker 2: That's not true in Canada. We can all.

2180
02:06:05,840 --> 02:06:09,720
Speaker 1: Drink in a bar now, Garrison. A moment ago, you

2181
02:06:09,760 --> 02:06:12,440
Speaker 1: were holding your hand above a lit candle in a

2182
02:06:12,480 --> 02:06:15,520
Speaker 1: way that reminded me of g. Gordon Litty, the Nazi

2183
02:06:15,560 --> 02:06:19,200
Speaker 1: who masterminded the Watergate breaking, and in order to convince

2184
02:06:19,240 --> 02:06:21,880
Speaker 1: people that he was a hard man, would regularly burn

2185
02:06:21,960 --> 02:06:24,400
Speaker 1: the palm with his hand on a candle while staring

2186
02:06:24,440 --> 02:06:24,760
Speaker 1: at them.

2187
02:06:28,320 --> 02:06:35,640
Speaker 7: Gender, Great, g Gordon Letty, you don't know enough about

2188
02:06:35,640 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 7: We'll talk about g.

2189
02:06:36,320 --> 02:06:40,360
Speaker 1: Gordon Litty, but today we're talking about something else, problematic

2190
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:46,120
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, which is not a thing that exists anywhere.

2191
02:06:46,400 --> 02:06:51,040
Speaker 1: It is instead a terrible, terrible error. Going back to

2192
02:06:51,120 --> 02:06:55,600
Speaker 1: like the sixties. In case of terminology, when we talk

2193
02:06:55,640 --> 02:06:58,880
Speaker 1: about all of the things that people are like, you know,

2194
02:06:58,920 --> 02:07:02,240
Speaker 1: flipping out as AI is chat GPT and stable diffusion

2195
02:07:02,360 --> 02:07:07,880
Speaker 1: and fucking all all these other sort of like different programs.

2196
02:07:07,920 --> 02:07:11,800
Speaker 1: They're not intelligences. They're you know, the chat GPT is

2197
02:07:11,840 --> 02:07:15,839
Speaker 1: like a large language model. They're all essentially like bots

2198
02:07:15,960 --> 02:07:20,240
Speaker 1: that you train to understand kind of like what the

2199
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:24,800
Speaker 1: likeliest thing that what the likeliest appropriate response is to

2200
02:07:24,920 --> 02:07:29,280
Speaker 1: like a given prompt. That's kind of like the broadest

2201
02:07:29,320 --> 02:07:32,040
Speaker 1: way to explain it. It's complicated, and they're you know,

2202
02:07:32,200 --> 02:07:35,200
Speaker 1: very useful, but obviously if you've been paying attention to

2203
02:07:35,240 --> 02:07:38,040
Speaker 1: the world right now, there's just a whole bunch of

2204
02:07:38,080 --> 02:07:40,360
Speaker 1: bullshit about them. And I think to kind of make

2205
02:07:40,480 --> 02:07:44,680
Speaker 1: sense of why we're seeing some of the shit around

2206
02:07:44,720 --> 02:07:47,600
Speaker 1: AI that we're seeing. And for a little bit of specificity,

2207
02:07:48,640 --> 02:07:50,800
Speaker 1: there have been like this kind of endless series of

2208
02:07:51,360 --> 02:07:54,320
Speaker 1: articles around this open letter signed by a bunch of

2209
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:57,440
Speaker 1: luminaries in the AI feel talking about how you know,

2210
02:07:57,480 --> 02:07:59,480
Speaker 1: there need to be laws put in place to stop

2211
02:07:59,480 --> 02:08:03,040
Speaker 1: it from in the world. You know, you've seen articles

2212
02:08:03,040 --> 02:08:06,920
Speaker 1: about like oh x percentage of AI researchers think that

2213
02:08:07,000 --> 02:08:09,680
Speaker 1: it could. It could destroy the planet, destroy the human

2214
02:08:09,760 --> 02:08:13,560
Speaker 1: race kind of. Most recently, the biggest article, the biggest

2215
02:08:13,680 --> 02:08:17,840
Speaker 1: like viral hype article, was that the Pentagon had supposedly

2216
02:08:17,920 --> 02:08:23,360
Speaker 1: been testing an AI like missile system that blew up

2217
02:08:23,400 --> 02:08:27,320
Speaker 1: its operator in a simulation because the operator was trying

2218
02:08:27,360 --> 02:08:31,000
Speaker 1: to stop it from from firing or whatever. It was bullshit,

2219
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:33,400
Speaker 1: like what was that? What actually had? Like vice ran

2220
02:08:33,440 --> 02:08:35,720
Speaker 1: with the article. It was very breakthive advice would do

2221
02:08:35,800 --> 02:08:38,880
Speaker 1: this flipping out about how horrifying, you know, our AI

2222
02:08:38,960 --> 02:08:41,800
Speaker 1: weapons future is and like, yeah, we shouldn't give AI

2223
02:08:41,920 --> 02:08:44,120
Speaker 1: the ability to like kill people, But that's not at

2224
02:08:44,120 --> 02:08:47,040
Speaker 1: all what happened. Basically, a bunch of army nerds or

2225
02:08:47,080 --> 02:08:49,480
Speaker 1: air force nerds were sitting around a table doing the

2226
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:53,160
Speaker 1: D and D version of like military planning, where you say,

2227
02:08:53,400 --> 02:08:55,840
Speaker 1: what if we did this, what kinds of things could

2228
02:08:55,880 --> 02:08:59,040
Speaker 1: happen if we did this system? And another guy around

2229
02:08:59,120 --> 02:09:01,160
Speaker 1: the table said, oh, well, if we build the system

2230
02:09:01,200 --> 02:09:04,680
Speaker 1: this way, it might conceivably attack its operator, you know,

2231
02:09:04,760 --> 02:09:07,760
Speaker 1: in order to optimize for this kind of result, which

2232
02:09:07,800 --> 02:09:12,680
Speaker 1: is like not scary, Like it's just people talking through

2233
02:09:12,880 --> 02:09:15,680
Speaker 1: pot like a flow chart of possibilities around a fucking table.

2234
02:09:15,680 --> 02:09:17,440
Speaker 1: You don't need to worry about that. There's so many

2235
02:09:17,440 --> 02:09:20,480
Speaker 1: other things to worry about. New York City is blanketed

2236
02:09:20,520 --> 02:09:22,520
Speaker 1: in a layer of smogs so thick you could cut

2237
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:25,120
Speaker 1: it with a butter knife. Like, don't flip out about

2238
02:09:25,200 --> 02:09:29,920
Speaker 1: AI weapons just yet, folks. But I wanted to kind

2239
02:09:29,920 --> 02:09:32,480
Speaker 1: of talk about why this shit is happening, And a

2240
02:09:32,480 --> 02:09:35,320
Speaker 1: lot of it comes down to the fact that when

2241
02:09:35,360 --> 02:09:37,920
Speaker 1: we're talking about the aspects of like the tech industry

2242
02:09:38,040 --> 02:09:41,480
Speaker 1: that have an impact on outside of the tech industry. Right,

2243
02:09:41,560 --> 02:09:45,000
Speaker 1: there's basically three jobs in big tech. One job is

2244
02:09:45,080 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 1: creating iterative improvements on existing products. These would be the

2245
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:51,440
Speaker 1: teams of folks who are responsible for designing a new

2246
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:54,800
Speaker 1: iPhone every year, Right, every couple of years. Lenovo puts

2247
02:09:54,800 --> 02:09:57,160
Speaker 1: out a new series of think pads and idea pads

2248
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:59,200
Speaker 1: every couple of years. You know, you get a new

2249
02:09:59,240 --> 02:10:03,080
Speaker 1: MacBook every couple of years. Razor puts out a new blade.

2250
02:10:04,080 --> 02:10:06,000
Speaker 1: This is you know, these are the folks who kind

2251
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:10,440
Speaker 1: of move along technology at a relatively like steady pace

2252
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:14,280
Speaker 1: for consumer devices. And then you have the people who

2253
02:10:14,320 --> 02:10:17,920
Speaker 1: are responsible for kind of what you might call the

2254
02:10:17,960 --> 02:10:21,720
Speaker 1: moonshot products. This is a mix of the next big

2255
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:25,720
Speaker 1: thing and doomed failures, and it's often pretty hard to

2256
02:10:25,720 --> 02:10:27,760
Speaker 1: tell you know what's going to be what ahead of time.

2257
02:10:28,120 --> 02:10:30,560
Speaker 1: A very good example would be back in the nineties,

2258
02:10:30,600 --> 02:10:32,920
Speaker 1: Apple put a bunch of resources into launching an early

2259
02:10:32,960 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 1: tablet computer called the Newton that was a fabulous disaster.

2260
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:38,400
Speaker 1: And then in the mid oughts they put a bunch

2261
02:10:38,400 --> 02:10:41,240
Speaker 1: of resources into launching the iPad, which was a huge success.

2262
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:45,400
Speaker 1: And when you kind of think about like the folks

2263
02:10:45,480 --> 02:10:50,400
Speaker 1: doing this, like working on the moonshot products. The most

2264
02:10:50,440 --> 02:10:52,680
Speaker 1: recent example would be whatever team at Apple, the team

2265
02:10:52,720 --> 02:10:55,760
Speaker 1: at Apple that was behind putting together these new Apple goggles,

2266
02:10:55,800 --> 02:10:58,280
Speaker 1: which I don't think are going to be a wildly

2267
02:10:58,360 --> 02:11:00,800
Speaker 1: successful product in the way that they need it to be,

2268
02:11:01,000 --> 02:11:04,160
Speaker 1: like a smartphone scale success. But this is an example

2269
02:11:04,160 --> 02:11:06,120
Speaker 1: of like a thing that didn't exist and a bunch

2270
02:11:06,160 --> 02:11:08,920
Speaker 1: of people had to invent new technologies or new ways

2271
02:11:08,920 --> 02:11:12,200
Speaker 1: to combine technologies in order to make it exist. The

2272
02:11:12,320 --> 02:11:16,640
Speaker 1: third kind of job that the tech industry has, broadly speaking,

2273
02:11:17,120 --> 02:11:20,920
Speaker 1: are conmen right. And the state that we are in

2274
02:11:20,920 --> 02:11:23,560
Speaker 1: in the industry right now is that every major tech

2275
02:11:23,600 --> 02:11:26,400
Speaker 1: company is run by some form of con man, right,

2276
02:11:27,280 --> 02:11:31,400
Speaker 1: Tim Cook is, you know, kind of the least conniest

2277
02:11:31,480 --> 02:11:34,960
Speaker 1: of the conman among them, But like Mark Zuckerberg obviously

2278
02:11:35,560 --> 02:11:38,680
Speaker 1: is a fucking flim flam artist, you know. And you

2279
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:41,280
Speaker 1: can see this with the huge amount of money, like

2280
02:11:41,320 --> 02:11:43,800
Speaker 1: it's something like eleven billion dollars at least that Facebook

2281
02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:47,839
Speaker 1: pumped into this bullshit metaverse scheme that like Apple barely

2282
02:11:47,880 --> 02:11:52,840
Speaker 1: even talked about during their event unveiling, like a headset

2283
02:11:52,880 --> 02:11:56,480
Speaker 1: that has VR potential in it. I'm getting away from

2284
02:11:56,480 --> 02:11:58,240
Speaker 1: myself here. Kind of the point that I'm making is

2285
02:11:58,280 --> 02:12:02,240
Speaker 1: that you can often have real products. There's actual technology

2286
02:12:02,280 --> 02:12:08,200
Speaker 1: going into the Apple glasses marketed by conman flimflam artist.

2287
02:12:08,240 --> 02:12:10,240
Speaker 1: This is not always like a bad thing, right. Steve

2288
02:12:10,320 --> 02:12:12,960
Speaker 1: Jobs was a con man, and it worked out pretty

2289
02:12:12,960 --> 02:12:15,880
Speaker 1: well for him because it just so happened that the

2290
02:12:15,920 --> 02:12:18,160
Speaker 1: tech not he had a decent enough idea of what

2291
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:20,960
Speaker 1: the tech was capable of that it was able to

2292
02:12:21,040 --> 02:12:24,320
Speaker 1: kind of meet the promises he was making in more

2293
02:12:24,400 --> 02:12:27,200
Speaker 1: or less real time. An example of what happens, you know,

2294
02:12:27,240 --> 02:12:29,640
Speaker 1: pretty spectacularly when that's not the case is what we

2295
02:12:29,680 --> 02:12:34,000
Speaker 1: saw with Therehos and Elizabeth Holmes who started prison last week. Right,

2296
02:12:34,040 --> 02:12:36,240
Speaker 1: You've got these promises being made by the con man

2297
02:12:36,320 --> 02:12:39,000
Speaker 1: and the people who are responsible for the moonshots can't

2298
02:12:39,080 --> 02:12:42,760
Speaker 1: make it work. I'm bringing this up right now because

2299
02:12:43,600 --> 02:12:45,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of folks, I think, who believe that

2300
02:12:46,320 --> 02:12:50,520
Speaker 1: the nate like the actual potential of AI has been

2301
02:12:50,560 --> 02:12:53,840
Speaker 1: proven in a spectacular way because the tools that have

2302
02:12:53,920 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 1: been released are able to do cool things. And I

2303
02:12:57,400 --> 02:13:01,720
Speaker 1: think those people are missing some key aspect, like some

2304
02:13:01,840 --> 02:13:05,360
Speaker 1: key things that like might cause one to think more

2305
02:13:05,400 --> 02:13:08,320
Speaker 1: critically about the actual potential the industry has and also

2306
02:13:08,360 --> 02:13:12,240
Speaker 1: might cause one to think more critically about how earth

2307
02:13:12,320 --> 02:13:14,760
Speaker 1: shattering it's all going to be. It's being taken kind

2308
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:17,600
Speaker 1: of as red right now by a lot of particularly

2309
02:13:18,160 --> 02:13:22,360
Speaker 1: journalists and media analysts outside of the tech and or

2310
02:13:22,400 --> 02:13:25,200
Speaker 1: like outside of of you know, the dogged tech press

2311
02:13:25,680 --> 02:13:28,240
Speaker 1: that like, well, this is going to upend huge numbers

2312
02:13:28,240 --> 02:13:30,720
Speaker 1: of industries and put massive numbers of people out of work.

2313
02:13:30,800 --> 02:13:33,520
Speaker 1: And you know, that may seem if you sat down

2314
02:13:33,560 --> 02:13:35,720
Speaker 1: in front of this chatbot and had like a mind

2315
02:13:35,760 --> 02:13:40,040
Speaker 1: blowing experience, that may seem credible. There's not the evidence

2316
02:13:40,400 --> 02:13:43,280
Speaker 1: behind that yet if you actually look at the numbers

2317
02:13:43,320 --> 02:13:46,560
Speaker 1: behind some of these different companies and like how their

2318
02:13:46,680 --> 02:13:49,680
Speaker 1: usership has grown and how it's fallen off. One of

2319
02:13:49,680 --> 02:13:51,280
Speaker 1: the things you've seen is that a lot of these

2320
02:13:51,320 --> 02:13:55,920
Speaker 1: tools had this kind of massive surge peak in terms

2321
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:57,720
Speaker 1: of the number of people adopting them and in terms

2322
02:13:57,760 --> 02:14:00,640
Speaker 1: of their profitability. You saw this with like stable Fusion, right,

2323
02:14:01,120 --> 02:14:06,240
Speaker 1: and then this kind of fairly rapid fall afterwards, not

2324
02:14:06,360 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 1: because people are like giving it up forever or whatever,

2325
02:14:09,240 --> 02:14:12,040
Speaker 1: but because, like, once you fucked around with it and

2326
02:14:12,160 --> 02:14:14,960
Speaker 1: generated some images or generated some stories, there's not a

2327
02:14:15,160 --> 02:14:18,400
Speaker 1: huge amount to do unless you're someone who's specifically going

2328
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:20,760
Speaker 1: to be using this for your job. And most of

2329
02:14:20,800 --> 02:14:22,960
Speaker 1: the people that wanted to fuck around with a lot

2330
02:14:22,960 --> 02:14:26,400
Speaker 1: of these apps didn't have long term use cases for them.

2331
02:14:26,880 --> 02:14:30,200
Speaker 1: This is why while you've got like, for example, Stability,

2332
02:14:30,240 --> 02:14:33,160
Speaker 1: which is the company or at least the main company

2333
02:14:33,160 --> 02:14:37,320
Speaker 1: behind Stable Diffusion, has been valued at like four billion

2334
02:14:37,360 --> 02:14:40,800
Speaker 1: dollars I think last it was checked, but their annualized

2335
02:14:40,800 --> 02:14:44,520
Speaker 1: revenue is only about ten million dollars. So that's a

2336
02:14:44,560 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 1: pretty significant gap. And it's a pretty significant gap because

2337
02:14:49,240 --> 02:14:52,600
Speaker 1: the actual money in AI so far isn't with the

2338
02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:55,640
Speaker 1: service providers. Really, like you've got some that have made

2339
02:14:55,680 --> 02:14:58,280
Speaker 1: in like thee hundred million dollar range, although it's not

2340
02:14:58,480 --> 02:15:01,480
Speaker 1: entirely clear what their margins are are or what the

2341
02:15:01,560 --> 02:15:04,360
Speaker 1: kind of the long term reliability of that profit is.

2342
02:15:04,600 --> 02:15:07,600
Speaker 1: But the vast majority of money in AI, like almost

2343
02:15:07,640 --> 02:15:09,800
Speaker 1: all of it has been made by companies like in Nvidia,

2344
02:15:10,240 --> 02:15:12,480
Speaker 1: and Vidia jumped up to become like a trillion dollar

2345
02:15:12,520 --> 02:15:18,440
Speaker 1: company as a result of this, because the hardware needs

2346
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:23,440
Speaker 1: of these products are so intense, and obviously that shows

2347
02:15:23,480 --> 02:15:26,040
Speaker 1: there's money here for somebody. But the fact that like

2348
02:15:26,120 --> 02:15:29,680
Speaker 1: a shitload of people got curious about these apps and

2349
02:15:30,000 --> 02:15:33,240
Speaker 1: use them in quick succession and then kind of dropped

2350
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:37,880
Speaker 1: off is an evidence that, like we're seeing entire industries

2351
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:40,120
Speaker 1: replaced as much of it as it is evidence that

2352
02:15:40,280 --> 02:15:43,520
Speaker 1: like a lot of people thought this was interesting briefly,

2353
02:15:44,560 --> 02:15:47,520
Speaker 1: and so I think kind of when you look at

2354
02:15:47,560 --> 02:15:49,360
Speaker 1: the data, one of the things that suggests is that

2355
02:15:49,400 --> 02:15:52,920
Speaker 1: we're heading towards a point in AI, and I think

2356
02:15:52,960 --> 02:15:54,760
Speaker 1: we're probably going to hit it within the next six

2357
02:15:54,800 --> 02:15:57,160
Speaker 1: months to a year. That is broadly referred to as

2358
02:15:57,200 --> 02:16:00,440
Speaker 1: like the trow of disappointment, And this is what happens

2359
02:16:00,480 --> 02:16:04,000
Speaker 1: when kind of the promises of a new technology that

2360
02:16:04,040 --> 02:16:06,360
Speaker 1: are being made by the hypemen or con men, as

2361
02:16:06,400 --> 02:16:08,919
Speaker 1: I tend to call them, meet with like the actual

2362
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:12,480
Speaker 1: reality of its execution, which in some areas is going

2363
02:16:12,480 --> 02:16:15,520
Speaker 1: to be significant. There are places, I think medical research

2364
02:16:15,680 --> 02:16:17,600
Speaker 1: maybe one of them. We'll talk about that in a bit,

2365
02:16:17,960 --> 02:16:20,040
Speaker 1: where a lot of the promises people are making about

2366
02:16:20,080 --> 02:16:23,560
Speaker 1: AI will be fairly quickly realized, and then there are

2367
02:16:23,600 --> 02:16:26,640
Speaker 1: areas where it won't be. I think content generation is

2368
02:16:26,680 --> 02:16:29,920
Speaker 1: one of those things. But yeah, so that's kind of

2369
02:16:29,960 --> 02:16:32,560
Speaker 1: like what I'm seeing when I'm looking at the broad

2370
02:16:32,600 --> 02:16:35,720
Speaker 1: strokes of where this technology is here and kind of

2371
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:38,240
Speaker 1: the gap between how people are talking about it and

2372
02:16:38,600 --> 02:16:42,000
Speaker 1: what we're actually seeing in terms of monetization. I want

2373
02:16:42,040 --> 02:16:43,920
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit now about kind of one

2374
02:16:43,959 --> 02:16:46,400
Speaker 1: of the guys I would call him kind of a

2375
02:16:46,440 --> 02:16:49,600
Speaker 1: con man who's been a big driver of the current

2376
02:16:49,680 --> 02:16:53,600
Speaker 1: AI push. He's a dude named Amad Mustock, and he's

2377
02:16:53,640 --> 02:16:56,720
Speaker 1: the founder of Stable Diffusion right, which is a text

2378
02:16:56,720 --> 02:16:59,960
Speaker 1: to image generator that was kind of like before chatscheep

2379
02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:03,199
Speaker 1: pt hit. This was like the first really really big

2380
02:17:03,320 --> 02:17:07,840
Speaker 1: mainstream AI thing. Chat GPT was was a lot larger,

2381
02:17:07,920 --> 02:17:12,240
Speaker 1: but Stable deviusion came first, and you know, was critical behind,

2382
02:17:12,240 --> 02:17:14,680
Speaker 1: among other things, a lot of the silliest n f

2383
02:17:14,760 --> 02:17:20,080
Speaker 1: T bullshit. And he's he's a really interesting dude. Like

2384
02:17:20,120 --> 02:17:21,960
Speaker 1: if you look at kind of his own claims about

2385
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:25,039
Speaker 1: his background. Uh, he says that he's got an Oxford

2386
02:17:25,160 --> 02:17:28,640
Speaker 1: master's degree, that he was like the behind an award

2387
02:17:28,640 --> 02:17:31,840
Speaker 1: winning hedge fund, that he like worked for the United

2388
02:17:31,920 --> 02:17:35,360
Speaker 1: Nations and a really important capacity, and also that he

2389
02:17:35,400 --> 02:17:39,120
Speaker 1: obviously founded this this a I bought. None of that's true.

2390
02:17:39,400 --> 02:17:42,520
Speaker 1: He has a bachelor's degree from Oxford, not a master's

2391
02:17:42,520 --> 02:17:43,560
Speaker 1: degree he did.

2392
02:17:43,640 --> 02:17:46,760
Speaker 7: Well, that's what he's playing off a thing that happens

2393
02:17:46,800 --> 02:17:49,400
Speaker 7: there where like you can you you can get if

2394
02:17:49,400 --> 02:17:51,560
Speaker 7: you have a BA Oxen and you can you can

2395
02:17:51,600 --> 02:17:53,280
Speaker 7: get it to be an MA. Doesn't mean you did

2396
02:17:53,320 --> 02:17:58,600
Speaker 7: a master's it's just a wealthy people flex. Yeah, it's

2397
02:17:58,640 --> 02:18:00,840
Speaker 7: it's not a master's degree. You should if you're recording

2398
02:18:00,879 --> 02:18:01,800
Speaker 7: it now, you're taking the pace.

2399
02:18:02,320 --> 02:18:02,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2400
02:18:02,600 --> 02:18:04,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's taken the piss knowing no one's gonna call

2401
02:18:04,720 --> 02:18:07,000
Speaker 1: him on it, or at least knowing that people wouldn't

2402
02:18:07,080 --> 02:18:09,800
Speaker 1: like at large, like loudly enough for it to matter

2403
02:18:09,879 --> 02:18:13,360
Speaker 1: for him. Yeah, he hasn't worked with the un in

2404
02:18:13,680 --> 02:18:16,720
Speaker 1: quite some time and never did in a major capacity.

2405
02:18:17,000 --> 02:18:19,640
Speaker 1: He did run a hedge fund that was successful in

2406
02:18:19,680 --> 02:18:21,600
Speaker 1: its first year but then got shut down in its

2407
02:18:21,640 --> 02:18:25,640
Speaker 1: second year because he lost everybody's money. So like this

2408
02:18:25,720 --> 02:18:27,360
Speaker 1: is this is but you see with this guy, if

2409
02:18:27,400 --> 02:18:29,480
Speaker 1: you go through his like history, he's like he's like

2410
02:18:29,560 --> 02:18:33,320
Speaker 1: chasing hedge funds in the early aughts. He first gets

2411
02:18:33,360 --> 02:18:36,480
Speaker 1: in with stable diffusion after COVID, and he's kind of

2412
02:18:36,520 --> 02:18:38,280
Speaker 1: like billing it as this is gonna help with like

2413
02:18:38,400 --> 02:18:41,400
Speaker 1: research into trying to like you know, fight the COVID

2414
02:18:41,480 --> 02:18:45,680
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic, and then he kind of pivots to like, oh,

2415
02:18:45,800 --> 02:18:48,160
Speaker 1: this is a great way to like make NFTs and shit,

2416
02:18:48,280 --> 02:18:50,119
Speaker 1: you know when that hit, Like he's he's just sort

2417
02:18:50,160 --> 02:18:53,720
Speaker 1: of like chasing where the money is any way he

2418
02:18:53,879 --> 02:18:56,600
Speaker 1: kind of can. And he's not, by the way, he's

2419
02:18:56,600 --> 02:18:58,360
Speaker 1: not the guy who wrote any of the source code

2420
02:18:58,360 --> 02:19:01,080
Speaker 1: for this. That was done by like a group of researchers,

2421
02:19:01,680 --> 02:19:05,320
Speaker 1: and he you know, he essentially like acquired it, which

2422
02:19:05,360 --> 02:19:07,520
Speaker 1: is usually what happens here. Now, none of this has

2423
02:19:07,560 --> 02:19:10,160
Speaker 1: stopped him from getting one hundred million dollars or so

2424
02:19:10,320 --> 02:19:15,680
Speaker 1: in investments from various venture partners and hasn't stopped his

2425
02:19:15,760 --> 02:19:18,280
Speaker 1: company from getting this massive violation. It hasn't stopped the

2426
02:19:18,280 --> 02:19:22,800
Speaker 1: White House from inviting him to talk as part of

2427
02:19:22,840 --> 02:19:26,600
Speaker 1: like a federal AI safety initiative. But it is one

2428
02:19:26,600 --> 02:19:28,520
Speaker 1: of those like when I kind of look into this

2429
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:31,440
Speaker 1: guy and kind of the gap between his claims and

2430
02:19:31,440 --> 02:19:34,760
Speaker 1: what's actually happened and the claims that are being made

2431
02:19:34,760 --> 02:19:37,200
Speaker 1: about the value of his company and what it's actually

2432
02:19:37,640 --> 02:19:39,600
Speaker 1: like proved to be worth so far. I think a

2433
02:19:39,600 --> 02:19:42,480
Speaker 1: lot about Sam Bankman Freed because a lot of like

2434
02:19:42,520 --> 02:19:45,560
Speaker 1: the early writing around this guy was similar, and a

2435
02:19:45,600 --> 02:19:48,880
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of shit that he's claiming is similar.

2436
02:19:49,440 --> 02:19:51,720
Speaker 1: And yeah, I'm not sure if this is a case

2437
02:19:51,720 --> 02:19:54,240
Speaker 1: where because Bankment Freed is one of these people who,

2438
02:19:54,520 --> 02:19:59,440
Speaker 1: like Elizabeth Holmes, I think backed the wrong technology because

2439
02:19:59,480 --> 02:20:03,160
Speaker 1: it's fine in Silicon Valley. It's fine, generally speaking in

2440
02:20:03,200 --> 02:20:06,360
Speaker 1: capitalism to lie about what a product can do if

2441
02:20:06,400 --> 02:20:08,720
Speaker 1: you can, you know, fake it till you make it.

2442
02:20:09,160 --> 02:20:11,560
Speaker 1: And maybe AI is there. He may have this guy

2443
02:20:11,640 --> 02:20:14,480
Speaker 1: may have made a good bet as to the future,

2444
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:17,720
Speaker 1: but that's kind of far from certain yet, and it's

2445
02:20:17,800 --> 02:20:21,920
Speaker 1: it's just really clear how much of this industry is

2446
02:20:21,959 --> 02:20:24,760
Speaker 1: being built on or is being built by how much

2447
02:20:24,760 --> 02:20:27,400
Speaker 1: of like the people running sort of these AI companies

2448
02:20:27,879 --> 02:20:30,760
Speaker 1: are dudes who managed one way or another, either through

2449
02:20:30,800 --> 02:20:34,520
Speaker 1: access to VC funding or kind of like you know,

2450
02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:36,360
Speaker 1: just being in the right place at the right time

2451
02:20:37,000 --> 02:20:40,320
Speaker 1: to jump in on the bandwagon in the hopes that

2452
02:20:40,320 --> 02:20:42,400
Speaker 1: they'll be able to cash out very very quickly. I

2453
02:20:42,440 --> 02:20:45,480
Speaker 1: found a good quote from a Forbes article talking about

2454
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:50,160
Speaker 1: like a big part of why guys like Mustok are

2455
02:20:50,240 --> 02:20:53,480
Speaker 1: so interested in AI right now from a financial perspective,

2456
02:20:54,400 --> 02:20:56,400
Speaker 1: And this is true, not just this was true about

2457
02:20:56,440 --> 02:21:00,600
Speaker 1: like crypto before, but AI because there's more to the techechnology.

2458
02:21:01,720 --> 02:21:06,320
Speaker 1: This is kind of even more so valid quote. Venture

2459
02:21:06,360 --> 02:21:09,720
Speaker 1: capitalists historically spend months performing due diligence, a process that

2460
02:21:09,760 --> 02:21:12,520
Speaker 1: involves analyzing the market, vetting the founder, and speaking to

2461
02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:15,400
Speaker 1: customers to check for red flags before investing in a startup,

2462
02:21:15,760 --> 02:21:18,240
Speaker 1: but start to finish my Stock told Forbes he needed

2463
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:20,480
Speaker 1: just six days to secure one hundred million dollars from

2464
02:21:20,560 --> 02:21:23,760
Speaker 1: leading investment firms Coach You and light Speed once Stable

2465
02:21:23,800 --> 02:21:26,560
Speaker 1: Diffusion went viral. The extent of due diligence at the

2466
02:21:26,560 --> 02:21:29,280
Speaker 1: firms performed is unclear given the speed of the investment.

2467
02:21:29,680 --> 02:21:31,800
Speaker 1: The investment thesis we had is that we don't know

2468
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:34,120
Speaker 1: exactly what all the use cases will be, but we

2469
02:21:34,160 --> 02:21:36,760
Speaker 1: know that this technology is truly transformative and has reached

2470
02:21:36,760 --> 02:21:38,520
Speaker 1: a tipping point in terms of what it can do.

2471
02:21:38,879 --> 02:21:41,440
Speaker 1: Garav Gupta, the light Speed partner who led the investment,

2472
02:21:41,480 --> 02:21:43,280
Speaker 1: told Forbes in a January interview.

2473
02:21:43,640 --> 02:21:44,560
Speaker 4: So again they're being.

2474
02:21:44,520 --> 02:21:46,720
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, we're pumping tens of million dollars of dollars

2475
02:21:47,040 --> 02:21:49,879
Speaker 1: into this. We don't know how it'll make money. It

2476
02:21:50,000 --> 02:21:52,519
Speaker 1: just seems so impressive that it has to be profitable.

2477
02:21:53,080 --> 02:21:56,480
Speaker 1: Now that line is particularly funny, maybe the wrong word,

2478
02:21:56,920 --> 02:22:01,840
Speaker 1: when compared alongside this paragraph from later in the article.

2479
02:22:02,280 --> 02:22:05,680
Speaker 1: In an open letter last September, Democratic Representative Anna Essue

2480
02:22:05,760 --> 02:22:08,320
Speaker 1: urged action in Washington against the open source nature of

2481
02:22:08,320 --> 02:22:10,720
Speaker 1: stable Diffusion. The model, she wrote, had been used to

2482
02:22:10,720 --> 02:22:14,240
Speaker 1: generate images of violently beaten Asian women and pornography, some

2483
02:22:14,280 --> 02:22:17,440
Speaker 1: of which portrays real people. Bashara said new versions of

2484
02:22:17,440 --> 02:22:21,600
Speaker 1: stable Diffusion filtered data for potentially unsafe content, helping to

2485
02:22:21,640 --> 02:22:24,600
Speaker 1: prevent users from generating harmful images in the first place.

2486
02:22:25,400 --> 02:22:32,000
Speaker 1: So it's like, part of what's happening here is you've

2487
02:22:32,040 --> 02:22:35,640
Speaker 1: got this thing that seems really impressive, and that is

2488
02:22:35,720 --> 02:22:37,920
Speaker 1: to some extent because it's able to like remix stuff

2489
02:22:37,959 --> 02:22:41,360
Speaker 1: that exists in a way that you haven't done automatically before.

2490
02:22:42,480 --> 02:22:45,280
Speaker 1: But all of these kind of valuations are based number one,

2491
02:22:45,280 --> 02:22:49,560
Speaker 1: and ignoring the problems with monetizing this stuff, including like

2492
02:22:49,680 --> 02:22:52,440
Speaker 1: the still very much unsorted nature of how copyright's going

2493
02:22:52,480 --> 02:22:55,640
Speaker 1: to affect this, and also like the question of is

2494
02:22:55,680 --> 02:23:00,320
Speaker 1: this really worth that much money? Like is is this

2495
02:23:00,440 --> 02:23:04,760
Speaker 1: actually is being able to generate kind of weird, slightly

2496
02:23:04,800 --> 02:23:11,280
Speaker 1: off putting AI images a huge business, like how much

2497
02:23:11,360 --> 02:23:13,360
Speaker 1: of because like from where I'm seeing, one of two

2498
02:23:13,360 --> 02:23:17,000
Speaker 1: things is possible. Number one, this replaces all art everywhere

2499
02:23:17,120 --> 02:23:19,120
Speaker 1: and so there's a shitload of money in it. Or

2500
02:23:19,200 --> 02:23:22,320
Speaker 1: number two, this remains a way that like low quality

2501
02:23:22,360 --> 02:23:27,360
Speaker 1: websites and like Amazon dropship scammers who are like putting

2502
02:23:27,400 --> 02:23:31,039
Speaker 1: up fake books on Kindle and whatnot to trick people

2503
02:23:31,160 --> 02:23:34,280
Speaker 1: using keywords like that this is just like a way

2504
02:23:34,320 --> 02:23:37,080
Speaker 1: to fill that shit out. Like I don't see a

2505
02:23:37,080 --> 02:23:39,120
Speaker 1: whole lot of room in the middle there. You know,

2506
02:23:39,160 --> 02:23:43,000
Speaker 1: maybe I'm being like overly pessimistic there, but that's that's

2507
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:43,760
Speaker 1: where I'm sitting.

2508
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:47,400
Speaker 2: I mean, some of the models we've seen used is

2509
02:23:47,560 --> 02:23:52,199
Speaker 2: selling like subscription packs for like access to these tools

2510
02:23:52,240 --> 02:23:55,320
Speaker 2: and access to use them for like commercial reasons. The

2511
02:23:55,360 --> 02:23:58,440
Speaker 2: other thing we can see is just like corporations selling

2512
02:23:58,440 --> 02:24:02,320
Speaker 2: to other corporations like Base having Disney and Warner Brothers

2513
02:24:02,360 --> 02:24:04,640
Speaker 2: be able to use this to generate concept art and

2514
02:24:04,720 --> 02:24:07,039
Speaker 2: now they don't need to pay concept artists and instead

2515
02:24:07,120 --> 02:24:11,160
Speaker 2: they just have like pretty pretty uh pretty like nicely

2516
02:24:11,240 --> 02:24:14,840
Speaker 2: curated tools for them to generate this type of yeah

2517
02:24:15,200 --> 02:24:18,119
Speaker 2: AI imagining. Those are kind of two of the biggest

2518
02:24:18,240 --> 02:24:21,240
Speaker 2: use cases that at least I'm seeing right now from

2519
02:24:21,560 --> 02:24:26,040
Speaker 2: slightly more on like the creative filmmaking art side of things,

2520
02:24:26,560 --> 02:24:28,320
Speaker 2: because I mean, I don't think it's gonna replace all

2521
02:24:29,360 --> 02:24:33,200
Speaker 2: all art. I think nobody nobody is actually uh is

2522
02:24:33,240 --> 02:24:35,440
Speaker 2: actually thinking it's just going to replace all all art,

2523
02:24:35,520 --> 02:24:37,920
Speaker 2: just like photography did not replace all art. It just

2524
02:24:38,160 --> 02:24:41,280
Speaker 2: it changes the paradigm. And because this this tool does

2525
02:24:41,320 --> 02:24:45,879
Speaker 2: seem like specifically useful for the for the way that

2526
02:24:45,920 --> 02:24:49,320
Speaker 2: we're seeing, like corporations make the same a movie every

2527
02:24:49,360 --> 02:24:51,640
Speaker 2: five years, like it's all it's it's it's it's all

2528
02:24:51,640 --> 02:24:54,240
Speaker 2: built on all of the same stuff. And I think

2529
02:24:54,240 --> 02:24:55,920
Speaker 2: that that's how a lot of a lot of it's

2530
02:24:55,920 --> 02:24:57,600
Speaker 2: gonna get used. It's gonna be a lot of weird

2531
02:24:57,600 --> 02:25:01,840
Speaker 2: scam artists people just mess around for fun, and then

2532
02:25:02,080 --> 02:25:05,160
Speaker 2: people not paying like illustrators as much.

2533
02:25:05,360 --> 02:25:08,800
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and I think that's kind of like I

2534
02:25:08,840 --> 02:25:11,520
Speaker 1: see this being adopted widely, but that's not the same

2535
02:25:11,800 --> 02:25:16,160
Speaker 1: as it like being a huge success. Like right now

2536
02:25:16,160 --> 02:25:18,880
Speaker 1: I'm looking at an article that's estimating the current value

2537
02:25:18,879 --> 02:25:20,760
Speaker 1: of AI in the US is at one hundred billion

2538
02:25:20,800 --> 02:25:23,560
Speaker 1: dollars and that by twenty thirty it'll be worth two

2539
02:25:23,560 --> 02:25:27,160
Speaker 1: trillion US dollars, And it's like, I don't know, man,

2540
02:25:27,280 --> 02:25:28,119
Speaker 1: like is.

2541
02:25:28,160 --> 02:25:30,680
Speaker 2: I mean the AI is more than just like mid

2542
02:25:30,720 --> 02:25:34,480
Speaker 2: journey image creation right there, is just like open AI

2543
02:25:34,600 --> 02:25:37,760
Speaker 2: and chat GPT, and like AI is in everything we

2544
02:25:37,920 --> 02:25:40,280
Speaker 2: use now, like like yeah, like AI is in your smartphone.

2545
02:25:40,280 --> 02:25:42,640
Speaker 2: AI is going to be in your refrigerator soon. It's

2546
02:25:42,640 --> 02:25:45,360
Speaker 2: like it's not just image generation by any means.

2547
02:25:45,520 --> 02:25:47,360
Speaker 1: That kind of gets to what I'm saying, because that's

2548
02:25:47,520 --> 02:25:50,879
Speaker 1: that's when you look at AI as a tool. Is

2549
02:25:50,920 --> 02:25:52,560
Speaker 1: more of like a paint brush than a painter. Is

2550
02:25:52,600 --> 02:25:54,959
Speaker 1: a tool that will like augment or be used in

2551
02:25:55,000 --> 02:25:56,720
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of a number of times

2552
02:25:57,080 --> 02:25:58,560
Speaker 1: it may be used in a way that makes the

2553
02:25:58,600 --> 02:26:02,760
Speaker 1: product worse and a lot of existing technologies. Well that's

2554
02:26:02,800 --> 02:26:06,280
Speaker 1: really different from kind of number one, the doom and gloom,

2555
02:26:06,360 --> 02:26:09,200
Speaker 1: like this is an intelligence on its own that could

2556
02:26:09,240 --> 02:26:12,800
Speaker 1: like overtake humanity. I think the worry is more like

2557
02:26:13,560 --> 02:26:16,240
Speaker 1: this could make get adopted on such a large scale

2558
02:26:16,280 --> 02:26:18,000
Speaker 1: that it like makes a lot of shit worse. Like

2559
02:26:18,160 --> 02:26:20,800
Speaker 1: my biggest fear with AI is that it kind of

2560
02:26:20,879 --> 02:26:24,160
Speaker 1: hypercharges the SEO industry and the way that that has

2561
02:26:24,200 --> 02:26:27,480
Speaker 1: worked to destroy search and destroy so much of Internet content.

2562
02:26:27,800 --> 02:26:30,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that is very possible. Like if I

2563
02:26:30,360 --> 02:26:33,320
Speaker 7: look at chat GPT, like, I don't think that's going

2564
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:36,440
Speaker 7: to be writing features for Rolling Stone anytime soon, but

2565
02:26:36,840 --> 02:26:41,480
Speaker 7: what it can probably do because SEO max copy is derivative, right,

2566
02:26:41,520 --> 02:26:44,840
Speaker 7: Like it's predictable, it's derivative, it's based on other stuff.

2567
02:26:44,560 --> 02:26:45,240
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be.

2568
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:48,359
Speaker 7: Yeah, and so it can do that SEO max copy

2569
02:26:48,520 --> 02:26:52,120
Speaker 7: and some of that ad copy like very well, and yeah,

2570
02:26:52,320 --> 02:26:55,439
Speaker 7: i'd have really fuck up searches, which is quite possible,

2571
02:26:55,600 --> 02:26:59,400
Speaker 7: and also make the lowest kind of acceptable tier of

2572
02:26:59,440 --> 02:27:03,680
Speaker 7: that kind of copy. What it can generate and sort

2573
02:27:03,680 --> 02:27:05,280
Speaker 7: of because you can just shove that copy in front

2574
02:27:05,320 --> 02:27:07,360
Speaker 7: of people with seomax and then have shitty agg copy

2575
02:27:07,360 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 7: written by church GBT. Like that will change how it's

2576
02:27:12,280 --> 02:27:14,360
Speaker 7: certainly how we buy stuff on the internet, right, but

2577
02:27:14,360 --> 02:27:14,920
Speaker 7: also how we.

2578
02:27:14,920 --> 02:27:16,600
Speaker 9: Read news, etc. Yeah.

2579
02:27:16,640 --> 02:27:21,160
Speaker 7: Absolutely, And I already see that, Like I've written for

2580
02:27:21,240 --> 02:27:25,760
Speaker 7: some big publications. You have like essentially a side. Do

2581
02:27:25,800 --> 02:27:30,480
Speaker 7: people know what content driven commerce is? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

2582
02:27:30,520 --> 02:27:32,879
Speaker 7: it's why every article about stuff is now the best

2583
02:27:32,920 --> 02:27:34,720
Speaker 7: five x right yeah, Like.

2584
02:27:34,680 --> 02:27:38,480
Speaker 1: They have affiliate links and the publication will profit if

2585
02:27:38,520 --> 02:27:40,199
Speaker 1: you buy stuff after clicking the link.

2586
02:27:40,280 --> 02:27:44,880
Speaker 7: Yeah yeah, So like in the probably twenty sixteen era,

2587
02:27:46,240 --> 02:27:48,680
Speaker 7: all of the stuff. So I did a lot of

2588
02:27:48,680 --> 02:27:52,080
Speaker 7: previously outdoor journalism right right about climbing gear, bikes, that

2589
02:27:52,160 --> 02:27:55,520
Speaker 7: kind of thing, and like that whole industry went to

2590
02:27:55,720 --> 02:27:58,720
Speaker 7: just AFCM, like just affiliate links, and they kind of

2591
02:27:58,760 --> 02:28:03,480
Speaker 7: trashed any quality review stuff. And I can see like

2592
02:28:03,600 --> 02:28:07,280
Speaker 7: a similar change to that happening with this right where

2593
02:28:07,320 --> 02:28:10,680
Speaker 7: where people will just chase that SEO max copy and

2594
02:28:10,720 --> 02:28:13,480
Speaker 7: that will become the new cool thing to do and

2595
02:28:13,560 --> 02:28:16,280
Speaker 7: like a lot of outlets as a result. But that's

2596
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:19,720
Speaker 7: not the like earth shattering change that people are talking

2597
02:28:19,760 --> 02:28:21,640
Speaker 7: about on Twitter, dot com or whatever.

2598
02:28:22,600 --> 02:28:24,200
Speaker 2: Well, one thing I saw recently is that more and

2599
02:28:24,280 --> 02:28:28,680
Speaker 2: more students are just using chat GPT to look up

2600
02:28:28,760 --> 02:28:31,960
Speaker 2: information like as opposed to like as a Wikipedia as

2601
02:28:31,959 --> 02:28:34,080
Speaker 2: opposed to Wikipedia are as supposed to Google if they

2602
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:37,039
Speaker 2: have a question. The last chat GPT which has a

2603
02:28:37,040 --> 02:28:39,120
Speaker 2: few problems as soon as you start getting into how

2604
02:28:39,200 --> 02:28:42,800
Speaker 2: much of the chat GBT output is just AI hallucinations

2605
02:28:43,240 --> 02:28:45,480
Speaker 2: where it's not actual information, which is honest, that's not

2606
02:28:45,480 --> 02:28:47,400
Speaker 2: thing I should just write my own thing on in

2607
02:28:47,440 --> 02:28:52,000
Speaker 2: the future. But yeah, it's just it's a really weird problem.

2608
02:28:52,360 --> 02:28:55,440
Speaker 1: That's really interesting that the problem of like because I

2609
02:28:55,440 --> 02:28:57,520
Speaker 1: think it's it's very clear to me at this point

2610
02:28:57,840 --> 02:29:02,400
Speaker 1: that AI is a more user friendly search experience than

2611
02:29:02,400 --> 02:29:05,160
Speaker 1: a search engine, right because you can talk to it

2612
02:29:05,280 --> 02:29:07,879
Speaker 1: like a person and explain what you need explained. That

2613
02:29:07,920 --> 02:29:10,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's a better option in terms of it

2614
02:29:10,680 --> 02:29:14,360
Speaker 1: provides people with information more effectively that it that it

2615
02:29:14,400 --> 02:29:16,400
Speaker 1: actually tells them what they want to know as well.

2616
02:29:16,800 --> 02:29:23,080
Speaker 1: But it's like easier and maybe like less kind of

2617
02:29:23,879 --> 02:29:27,119
Speaker 1: an imposing task to like ask an AI a question

2618
02:29:27,160 --> 02:29:29,240
Speaker 1: that it is to ask like a search and to

2619
02:29:29,400 --> 02:29:33,000
Speaker 1: especially as as much worse as Google has gotten lately.

2620
02:29:33,080 --> 02:29:34,680
Speaker 1: Like one of the things that I found interesting is

2621
02:29:34,680 --> 02:29:36,600
Speaker 1: I was kind of doing digging for this. I was

2622
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:38,840
Speaker 1: looking at some AI articles that were published in like

2623
02:29:38,879 --> 02:29:42,040
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. This is before

2624
02:29:42,120 --> 02:29:45,480
Speaker 1: the big you know AI push that like we're currently

2625
02:29:45,480 --> 02:29:48,160
Speaker 1: all in the middle of before chat GPT you know,

2626
02:29:48,240 --> 02:29:51,520
Speaker 1: got its its widespread release. And it was talking with

2627
02:29:51,560 --> 02:29:53,720
Speaker 1: like some people from Google who were like, Yeah, we

2628
02:29:53,760 --> 02:29:57,360
Speaker 1: really see AI like supercharging our search results. You know,

2629
02:29:57,360 --> 02:29:59,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of potential and like its ability to

2630
02:29:59,600 --> 02:30:02,920
Speaker 1: help people with search. And I'm thinking about in twenty

2631
02:30:02,959 --> 02:30:06,320
Speaker 1: twenty twenty nineteen, Google was a really useful tool and

2632
02:30:06,360 --> 02:30:11,199
Speaker 1: it's a shit show now, like it's filled with ads,

2633
02:30:11,360 --> 02:30:14,320
Speaker 1: Like search results have gotten markedly, whereas everyone who uses

2634
02:30:14,360 --> 02:30:16,160
Speaker 1: Google as part of their job will tell you that

2635
02:30:16,200 --> 02:30:20,959
Speaker 1: it's gotten like significantly worse in the recent past. And

2636
02:30:21,040 --> 02:30:28,200
Speaker 1: like I that's kind of like the thing that I

2637
02:30:28,240 --> 02:30:30,959
Speaker 1: see being more of a worry, And.

2638
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 9: It's one of those things.

2639
02:30:31,959 --> 02:30:35,480
Speaker 1: It's like, on one hand, in the hype machine you have,

2640
02:30:35,680 --> 02:30:39,000
Speaker 1: like AI could become like our new god king and

2641
02:30:39,040 --> 02:30:42,240
Speaker 1: destroy us all, and the other like AI is going

2642
02:30:42,280 --> 02:30:45,200
Speaker 1: to like, you know, create all. There's all this vague

2643
02:30:45,200 --> 02:30:47,240
Speaker 1: talk about what could be giving people the tools to

2644
02:30:47,320 --> 02:30:50,959
Speaker 1: create more art than ever before, to you know, make

2645
02:30:51,280 --> 02:30:54,879
Speaker 1: more good things faster, and I kind of feel like, well,

2646
02:30:54,920 --> 02:30:57,800
Speaker 1: what if neither of those things happens, which I and

2647
02:30:58,200 --> 02:31:03,720
Speaker 1: it just sort of allows us to continue making the

2648
02:31:03,800 --> 02:31:08,880
Speaker 1: Internet worse for everybody at a more rapid pace. What

2649
02:31:08,959 --> 02:31:11,959
Speaker 1: if that's the primary thing that we notice about AI

2650
02:31:12,160 --> 02:31:13,680
Speaker 1: as consumers.

2651
02:31:14,360 --> 02:31:15,600
Speaker 9: It's probably a reasonab assumption.

2652
02:31:15,680 --> 02:31:17,680
Speaker 7: I think Garrison's point was good though, when they said

2653
02:31:18,040 --> 02:31:20,720
Speaker 7: that like bigger companies will buy, like companies will just

2654
02:31:20,760 --> 02:31:22,520
Speaker 7: exist to get bought, right, which is the thing that's

2655
02:31:22,520 --> 02:31:26,519
Speaker 7: happened to tech for decades, because like it can't fundamentally

2656
02:31:26,600 --> 02:31:29,400
Speaker 7: change things, Like if AI is another means of production, right,

2657
02:31:29,440 --> 02:31:32,640
Speaker 7: if we want to be like a grossly materialist, if

2658
02:31:32,640 --> 02:31:34,840
Speaker 7: AI is another means of predic's a tool for making things.

2659
02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:37,120
Speaker 7: If the same people own it and benefit from it,

2660
02:31:37,160 --> 02:31:41,640
Speaker 7: then like it's incapable of fundamentally changing our material conditions, right,

2661
02:31:41,720 --> 02:31:45,080
Speaker 7: just becomes another way for them to churn out shit

2662
02:31:45,200 --> 02:31:47,840
Speaker 7: and say that like this is fine, this is what

2663
02:31:47,920 --> 02:31:49,920
Speaker 7: you'll get, you know, like churn out shit content on

2664
02:31:49,959 --> 02:31:51,800
Speaker 7: the Internet or whatever it might be.

2665
02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:56,959
Speaker 1: And likewise, if AI is primarily like if it gets

2666
02:31:56,959 --> 02:31:59,440
Speaker 1: caught in this kind of SEO loop where it exists

2667
02:31:59,480 --> 02:32:03,080
Speaker 1: primary to help advertise and sell products, whether it's as

2668
02:32:03,080 --> 02:32:07,000
Speaker 1: a search engine or generating mass content you know, for

2669
02:32:08,200 --> 02:32:11,560
Speaker 1: like the Internet that's sort of optimized to appear higher

2670
02:32:11,560 --> 02:32:15,119
Speaker 1: in search results, and it's also being trained on that.

2671
02:32:15,280 --> 02:32:16,959
Speaker 1: Is there a point at which it kind of starts

2672
02:32:16,959 --> 02:32:20,360
Speaker 1: to lobotomize itself where it's just recycling shit other AI

2673
02:32:20,520 --> 02:32:23,640
Speaker 1: is written, which also seems kind of inevitable with that.

2674
02:32:23,760 --> 02:32:25,160
Speaker 1: This is one of those things. So one of the

2675
02:32:25,200 --> 02:32:29,760
Speaker 1: more famous moments, and like recent AI research, is this

2676
02:32:30,080 --> 02:32:34,920
Speaker 1: Google researcher timnit Gibru, who no longer works at Google,

2677
02:32:35,560 --> 02:32:38,200
Speaker 1: and some other very smart people put together a paper

2678
02:32:38,240 --> 02:32:40,959
Speaker 1: that like it was I think generally regarded by AI

2679
02:32:41,040 --> 02:32:42,760
Speaker 1: folks as kind of middle of the road, but it

2680
02:32:43,680 --> 02:32:46,520
Speaker 1: kind of it developed the term stochastic parrot, which is

2681
02:32:46,520 --> 02:32:48,920
Speaker 1: what people know it for as sort of trying to

2682
02:32:48,959 --> 02:32:52,440
Speaker 1: describe what these quote unquote AIS do in a way

2683
02:32:52,440 --> 02:32:54,600
Speaker 1: that's better than an AI, because like, part of what

2684
02:32:54,640 --> 02:32:57,400
Speaker 1: it was saying is that, like we have to look

2685
02:32:57,440 --> 02:32:59,080
Speaker 1: at this as kind of like a parrot that if

2686
02:32:59,080 --> 02:33:01,760
Speaker 1: you say enough like words around it, including enough like

2687
02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:04,680
Speaker 1: racial slurs, it'll start repeating a bunch of toxic shit.

2688
02:33:04,720 --> 02:33:07,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't know what it's doing, it doesn't have intention,

2689
02:33:07,680 --> 02:33:10,119
Speaker 1: it's just kind of like repeating this stuff because that's

2690
02:33:10,160 --> 02:33:12,320
Speaker 1: what's been fed into it. But one of the things

2691
02:33:12,360 --> 02:33:14,920
Speaker 1: to point out in that paper is that like when

2692
02:33:14,959 --> 02:33:17,080
Speaker 1: you have an AI, when you have one of these

2693
02:33:17,160 --> 02:33:20,440
Speaker 1: lms trained on too large of a model, it becomes

2694
02:33:20,560 --> 02:33:23,960
Speaker 1: number one kind of impossible to avoid that toxic stuff.

2695
02:33:24,000 --> 02:33:28,200
Speaker 1: But it also reduces the utility of the AI in

2696
02:33:28,240 --> 02:33:30,560
Speaker 1: a lot of ways because like when you have so

2697
02:33:30,680 --> 02:33:35,480
Speaker 1: much data going in, it's very difficult for the humans

2698
02:33:35,520 --> 02:33:39,240
Speaker 1: to kind of tell how competent it is. This is

2699
02:33:39,320 --> 02:33:43,320
Speaker 1: why stuff like chat GPT involves so much human training,

2700
02:33:43,360 --> 02:33:46,080
Speaker 1: why they had hundreds of people spending tens of thousands

2701
02:33:46,080 --> 02:33:49,080
Speaker 1: of man hours like going through responses to tell if

2702
02:33:49,120 --> 02:33:52,520
Speaker 1: they made sense. Because when you've got like it's one

2703
02:33:52,560 --> 02:33:55,360
Speaker 1: thing if you're like using an if you're for example,

2704
02:33:55,400 --> 02:33:57,680
Speaker 1: training an AI on a bunch of different like medical

2705
02:33:57,760 --> 02:34:02,080
Speaker 1: data to try to determine patterns and like antibiotic research, right,

2706
02:34:02,320 --> 02:34:04,440
Speaker 1: which is a thing that that lllms have been like

2707
02:34:04,680 --> 02:34:07,959
Speaker 1: shown to be have some early utility and is like

2708
02:34:08,040 --> 02:34:11,160
Speaker 1: kind of helping to identity identify new paths for like

2709
02:34:11,200 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 1: antibiotics research, because like we've got a lot of data,

2710
02:34:15,520 --> 02:34:17,960
Speaker 1: but it's also a really focused kind of data, right,

2711
02:34:18,000 --> 02:34:20,320
Speaker 1: We're not like training these things on like all of

2712
02:34:20,520 --> 02:34:23,959
Speaker 1: you know, Wikipedia and and you know thousands and thousands

2713
02:34:24,000 --> 02:34:27,800
Speaker 1: and thousands of fan fiction stories about Kirk and Molder

2714
02:34:27,879 --> 02:34:31,360
Speaker 1: fucking each other during some sort of like Exile file

2715
02:34:31,440 --> 02:34:35,760
Speaker 1: Star Trek crossover. We're we're we're using a fairly focused

2716
02:34:35,879 --> 02:34:40,000
Speaker 1: data set to try and analyze it in a manner

2717
02:34:40,000 --> 02:34:43,879
Speaker 1: more efficiently than people are simply capable of. That's a

2718
02:34:43,920 --> 02:34:47,800
Speaker 1: lot more useful in terms of getting good data than

2719
02:34:48,360 --> 02:34:51,800
Speaker 1: you know, just training it on half of trillion different

2720
02:34:52,000 --> 02:34:53,800
Speaker 1: things out there, a lot of which you're going to

2721
02:34:53,800 --> 02:34:59,240
Speaker 1: be lies. But anyway, I found that interesting. It's kind

2722
02:34:59,280 --> 02:35:02,480
Speaker 1: of worth noting that, like Gabru and a number of

2723
02:35:02,480 --> 02:35:06,480
Speaker 1: other people who were responsible for that got forced out

2724
02:35:06,680 --> 02:35:10,760
Speaker 1: by Google and kind of attacked by the industry because

2725
02:35:11,640 --> 02:35:15,200
Speaker 1: I think there's a desperation And I talked about this

2726
02:35:15,320 --> 02:35:18,200
Speaker 1: in that episode I did last year kind of about

2727
02:35:18,320 --> 02:35:22,359
Speaker 1: the fundamental emptiness at the core of the modern tech industry.

2728
02:35:22,360 --> 02:35:25,800
Speaker 1: But I think there's this desperation, Unlike, we have to

2729
02:35:25,879 --> 02:35:28,160
Speaker 1: find the new thing, the thing that's going to be

2730
02:35:28,240 --> 02:35:30,280
Speaker 1: as big as social media was, the thing that's going

2731
02:35:30,280 --> 02:35:32,560
Speaker 1: to deliver the kind of stock market returns that social

2732
02:35:32,600 --> 02:35:36,840
Speaker 1: media did, and that doesn't exist yet. And AI is

2733
02:35:37,640 --> 02:35:42,560
Speaker 1: after especially several years of disasters with crypto and diminishing

2734
02:35:42,600 --> 02:35:46,920
Speaker 1: returns in social media and honestly diminishing returns, and like

2735
02:35:46,959 --> 02:35:50,080
Speaker 1: traditional tech because like smartphones have reached kind of a

2736
02:35:50,120 --> 02:35:53,560
Speaker 1: point of saturation. Right, you can make money sell obviously,

2737
02:35:53,720 --> 02:35:56,600
Speaker 1: like you can make money selling smartphones, but you can't

2738
02:35:56,760 --> 02:35:59,880
Speaker 1: show exponential growth, right, There's just not that many people

2739
02:36:00,160 --> 02:36:01,600
Speaker 1: who need new ones.

2740
02:36:02,000 --> 02:36:02,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2741
02:36:02,760 --> 02:36:06,400
Speaker 1: Anyway, Yeah, I think there's I feel some desperation here.

2742
02:36:06,720 --> 02:36:09,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of close by reading you all.

2743
02:36:09,240 --> 02:36:12,920
Speaker 1: I found a very funny article in the Financial Times

2744
02:36:13,400 --> 02:36:17,039
Speaker 1: that was about the potential that the head of Europe's

2745
02:36:17,040 --> 02:36:23,080
Speaker 1: biggest media group, Birtlesman, sees for generative AI. And yeah,

2746
02:36:23,320 --> 02:36:26,039
Speaker 1: it interviewed a couple of people, including a guy Thomas Rabe,

2747
02:36:26,040 --> 02:36:31,000
Speaker 1: who works is the chief executive of the German business

2748
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:35,000
Speaker 1: that owns Penguin Random House and One of the things

2749
02:36:35,000 --> 02:36:37,440
Speaker 1: that he says in this is basically like I think

2750
02:36:37,480 --> 02:36:40,320
Speaker 1: this is, you know, uh going to be super great

2751
02:36:40,360 --> 02:36:44,279
Speaker 1: for authors. You know, there's a potential for copyright infringement problems,

2752
02:36:44,320 --> 02:36:47,400
Speaker 1: but really like it would allow you to feed your

2753
02:36:47,440 --> 02:36:51,560
Speaker 1: own work into an AI and then produce much more

2754
02:36:51,600 --> 02:36:54,040
Speaker 1: content than you were a raverable put able to put

2755
02:36:54,040 --> 02:36:56,280
Speaker 1: out before. Like his exact what is it's if it's

2756
02:36:56,320 --> 02:36:58,120
Speaker 1: your content for what you owned the copyright, and then

2757
02:36:58,160 --> 02:37:00,120
Speaker 1: you use it to train the software you can and

2758
02:37:00,160 --> 02:37:04,880
Speaker 1: theory generate content like never before, which I think is yeah,

2759
02:37:05,040 --> 02:37:08,959
Speaker 1: a fundamental Like you know, I don't actually even think

2760
02:37:09,000 --> 02:37:10,760
Speaker 1: it's going to be possible to like train them on

2761
02:37:10,800 --> 02:37:13,520
Speaker 1: airport novels like you've got like James Patterson and other

2762
02:37:13,600 --> 02:37:17,480
Speaker 1: guys who they're not They don't write their own books anymore.

2763
02:37:17,560 --> 02:37:20,280
Speaker 1: They have like a team of ghostwriters. But like having

2764
02:37:20,360 --> 02:37:23,240
Speaker 1: gone through a lot of AI's stories, they're not books,

2765
02:37:23,840 --> 02:37:26,280
Speaker 1: Like they're not capable of writing books. They're capable of

2766
02:37:26,360 --> 02:37:30,240
Speaker 1: like producing text and producing pieces of books that human

2767
02:37:30,240 --> 02:37:34,160
Speaker 1: beings can edit laboriously into something that might look like

2768
02:37:34,200 --> 02:37:36,840
Speaker 1: a book. But the use in that is not like

2769
02:37:37,600 --> 02:37:40,760
Speaker 1: filling up airports with kind of mid grade fiction, because

2770
02:37:40,800 --> 02:37:43,200
Speaker 1: I think that's even beyond these models. It's like tricking

2771
02:37:43,240 --> 02:37:47,200
Speaker 1: people on Amazon. There was a really funny quote in

2772
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:52,119
Speaker 1: this article though, where at the end of it, Rabe

2773
02:37:52,160 --> 02:37:54,760
Speaker 1: is like, I asked chat GPT what the impact of

2774
02:37:54,840 --> 02:37:58,480
Speaker 1: chat GPT or generative AI is unpublishing it prepared a

2775
02:37:58,480 --> 02:38:01,640
Speaker 1: phenomenal text. Frankly, it was very detailed into the point,

2776
02:38:02,120 --> 02:38:05,440
Speaker 1: which he then presented at a staff event. So there

2777
02:38:05,480 --> 02:38:08,560
Speaker 1: is kind of evidence that the CEO jobs could be

2778
02:38:08,600 --> 02:38:10,760
Speaker 1: pretty easily replaced by this, Like.

2779
02:38:10,920 --> 02:38:15,320
Speaker 2: You don't actually have to do anything, Comrade chat GBT,

2780
02:38:15,560 --> 02:38:18,760
Speaker 2: we agree, it's just spinning Jenny for bosses.

2781
02:38:18,840 --> 02:38:19,320
Speaker 9: I love it.

2782
02:38:19,680 --> 02:38:20,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2783
02:38:20,160 --> 02:38:23,440
Speaker 1: Anyway, that's that's what I've got right now. We have

2784
02:38:23,480 --> 02:38:25,720
Speaker 1: a We've been doing some research and we'll have an

2785
02:38:25,800 --> 02:38:28,800
Speaker 1: article out on one of the more unsettling little site

2786
02:38:28,800 --> 02:38:32,840
Speaker 1: industries that I think AI is going to create, which

2787
02:38:32,879 --> 02:38:38,840
Speaker 1: is like scam children's books that exist to make conment

2788
02:38:38,879 --> 02:38:41,400
Speaker 1: on the Internet money and poison the minds of little kids.

2789
02:38:41,760 --> 02:38:45,360
Speaker 1: But we'll get that to you next week. Yeah, it

2790
02:38:45,400 --> 02:38:48,000
Speaker 1: felt like it was worth coming back to this subject

2791
02:38:48,080 --> 02:38:51,720
Speaker 1: because it, I don't know, it's the most apocalyptic thing

2792
02:38:52,320 --> 02:38:54,880
Speaker 1: people in the media are talking about in a day

2793
02:38:54,920 --> 02:38:58,320
Speaker 1: in which like the entire Northeast is blanketed in poison smoke,

2794
02:38:58,400 --> 02:38:59,240
Speaker 1: which seems.

2795
02:38:58,959 --> 02:39:01,520
Speaker 7: Bad at well, people are talking about that now because

2796
02:39:01,520 --> 02:39:03,760
Speaker 7: they all live in New York and they're the fuck out,

2797
02:39:03,800 --> 02:39:05,400
Speaker 7: But yeah, previous.

2798
02:39:05,000 --> 02:39:09,560
Speaker 9: To it is yeah, good to help.

2799
02:39:25,280 --> 02:39:29,080
Speaker 7: Hello everyone, It's just me James again today and I'm

2800
02:39:29,160 --> 02:39:32,040
Speaker 7: joined by Ruth Kinner, who's going to introduce herself shortly,

2801
02:39:32,240 --> 02:39:35,360
Speaker 7: and we're discussing the concept of mutual aid and trying

2802
02:39:35,360 --> 02:39:37,920
Speaker 7: to sort of cast that in a broader perspective. We

2803
02:39:37,920 --> 02:39:39,840
Speaker 7: talk a lot about mutual aid, but we don't talk

2804
02:39:40,360 --> 02:39:42,160
Speaker 7: often about what it is and what it means and

2805
02:39:42,520 --> 02:39:45,000
Speaker 7: how it's been happening for a very long time. So Ruth,

2806
02:39:45,000 --> 02:39:47,039
Speaker 7: would you like to introduce yourself and tell us any

2807
02:39:47,080 --> 02:39:47,959
Speaker 7: do you think it's relevant?

2808
02:39:48,440 --> 02:39:50,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, thank you, James. So my name is Ruth Kinner

2809
02:39:50,680 --> 02:39:54,480
Speaker 8: and I work at Lufber University in the UK. Lufber's

2810
02:39:54,720 --> 02:39:58,720
Speaker 8: halfway between Nottingham and Leicester in the East Midlands, and

2811
02:39:59,360 --> 02:40:02,880
Speaker 8: I'm a political theorist and historian of ideas and I

2812
02:40:02,920 --> 02:40:07,039
Speaker 8: specialize in anarchist political thought. And one of the people

2813
02:40:07,080 --> 02:40:10,680
Speaker 8: I've spent probably most time looking at is Peter Cropotkin,

2814
02:40:11,480 --> 02:40:16,360
Speaker 8: and I've written about Kropotkin's life and work. I'm also

2815
02:40:16,480 --> 02:40:19,480
Speaker 8: the editor of the journal Anarchist Studies, and I'm a

2816
02:40:19,480 --> 02:40:22,360
Speaker 8: member at Lufber University of the Anarchism Research Group.

2817
02:40:23,080 --> 02:40:27,320
Speaker 7: I lovely. Yeah, that's a very very appropriate TV for this.

2818
02:40:28,520 --> 02:40:31,160
Speaker 7: So can we start off by explaining because I think

2819
02:40:31,200 --> 02:40:33,240
Speaker 7: people hear mutual aids sort of thrown about a lot,

2820
02:40:33,280 --> 02:40:35,800
Speaker 7: and they know that it's people helping people, But what

2821
02:40:36,560 --> 02:40:37,600
Speaker 7: would you define it as?

2822
02:40:37,640 --> 02:40:39,800
Speaker 9: What would be a useful definition for people to work of?

2823
02:40:41,640 --> 02:40:45,440
Speaker 8: So mutual aid is about people helping people. But I

2824
02:40:45,440 --> 02:40:48,200
Speaker 8: think crop Popkin's argument, or you know, the way that

2825
02:40:48,840 --> 02:40:52,519
Speaker 8: anarchists tend to think about mutual aid is that it's

2826
02:40:53,120 --> 02:40:58,200
Speaker 8: a way of describing a relationship that can be encouraged

2827
02:40:58,320 --> 02:41:02,080
Speaker 8: or discouraged according to the ways in which we organize

2828
02:41:02,080 --> 02:41:05,280
Speaker 8: our social relationships. So mutual aid is a kind of

2829
02:41:05,560 --> 02:41:09,320
Speaker 8: a response that we all have two people when it's

2830
02:41:09,560 --> 02:41:13,360
Speaker 8: based on empathy, I guess, but it's something that we

2831
02:41:13,440 --> 02:41:20,640
Speaker 8: can dampen. I suppose if we divorce ourselves from other

2832
02:41:20,680 --> 02:41:25,760
Speaker 8: people in our everyday lives, and particularly if we tend

2833
02:41:25,920 --> 02:41:29,560
Speaker 8: to think that people's well being is the concern of

2834
02:41:29,720 --> 02:41:33,720
Speaker 8: others rather than something which is a collective concern of

2835
02:41:34,440 --> 02:41:34,879
Speaker 8: all of us.

2836
02:41:35,480 --> 02:41:35,760
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2837
02:41:36,040 --> 02:41:39,200
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's really excellent because it's very easy,

2838
02:41:39,280 --> 02:41:42,240
Speaker 7: especially if you're living under sort of capitalism as it

2839
02:41:42,280 --> 02:41:46,400
Speaker 7: exists today, to divorce yourself from your empathy or I

2840
02:41:46,440 --> 02:41:49,880
Speaker 7: don't know, responsibilities the right word, but to help other people.

2841
02:41:50,160 --> 02:41:52,640
Speaker 7: Can We see that all the time, And I think

2842
02:41:52,720 --> 02:41:56,760
Speaker 7: one area where we've seen that increasingly, certainly in the

2843
02:41:56,800 --> 02:41:59,680
Speaker 7: two countries that we're sitting in, is with this like

2844
02:42:01,200 --> 02:42:04,680
Speaker 7: this bizarre I don't want to like pathologize it, but

2845
02:42:04,760 --> 02:42:09,600
Speaker 7: this this deeply untasteful lack of empathy for refugees and

2846
02:42:09,680 --> 02:42:13,600
Speaker 7: people seeking asylum. So I wanted to sort of start

2847
02:42:13,680 --> 02:42:17,240
Speaker 7: with the example of the Lifeboats in the UK, because

2848
02:42:17,640 --> 02:42:20,760
Speaker 7: I think they're great. They pop up in Crapotkin, They've

2849
02:42:20,760 --> 02:42:23,280
Speaker 7: been around for very long time, and they were, at

2850
02:42:23,360 --> 02:42:25,200
Speaker 7: least when I was living in the UK, very charitied

2851
02:42:25,200 --> 02:42:29,160
Speaker 7: institution that people supported. And can you explain a little

2852
02:42:29,160 --> 02:42:32,720
Speaker 7: bit about how they operate within that sort of mutual

2853
02:42:32,800 --> 02:42:33,840
Speaker 7: aid lens.

2854
02:42:34,840 --> 02:42:35,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2855
02:42:35,160 --> 02:42:40,040
Speaker 8: So the Lifeboat Association was prompted by it's called an

2856
02:42:40,080 --> 02:42:42,480
Speaker 8: appeal to the British Nation that was published in eighteen

2857
02:42:42,480 --> 02:42:45,760
Speaker 8: twenty five by this guy called William Hillary. And what

2858
02:42:45,879 --> 02:42:49,280
Speaker 8: Hillary wanted to do was to support the foundation of

2859
02:42:49,320 --> 02:42:51,240
Speaker 8: a kind of national institution that was going to help

2860
02:42:51,280 --> 02:42:55,680
Speaker 8: the victims of shipwrecks. And he couched this project actually

2861
02:42:55,720 --> 02:42:58,600
Speaker 8: as quite a sort of nationalistic terms, I suppose were

2862
02:42:58,600 --> 02:43:03,160
Speaker 8: in patriotic terms, part of the duty that British people

2863
02:43:03,160 --> 02:43:06,480
Speaker 8: would have as one of the great seafaring nations. But

2864
02:43:06,560 --> 02:43:10,080
Speaker 8: what it did was that it established the skeleton, if

2865
02:43:10,080 --> 02:43:12,199
Speaker 8: you like, or it produced the sort of the foundation

2866
02:43:12,240 --> 02:43:14,280
Speaker 8: for the Lifeboat Association, which is what we know now,

2867
02:43:14,640 --> 02:43:18,560
Speaker 8: which is basically a voluntary organization run by volunteers, funded

2868
02:43:18,560 --> 02:43:22,879
Speaker 8: by the public, with a remit to help anybody who

2869
02:43:22,920 --> 02:43:26,920
Speaker 8: is in distress at sea. And I guess although it

2870
02:43:26,959 --> 02:43:30,279
Speaker 8: was sort of the original idea of the Lifeboat Association

2871
02:43:30,400 --> 02:43:35,720
Speaker 8: came from this sort of rather patriotic seafaring tradition. Hillary's

2872
02:43:35,720 --> 02:43:41,199
Speaker 8: idea was that once you set up these organizations locally

2873
02:43:41,920 --> 02:43:44,320
Speaker 8: on the coast, then actually they could be replicated. So

2874
02:43:44,360 --> 02:43:46,680
Speaker 8: he did have a sort of internationalist perspective. He thought

2875
02:43:46,720 --> 02:43:50,040
Speaker 8: that these things would be would mushroom, you know, across

2876
02:43:50,040 --> 02:43:52,520
Speaker 8: the globe and that we would have lifeboat associations everywhere.

2877
02:43:52,720 --> 02:43:55,240
Speaker 8: I'm not sure if that's true, but certainly the Lifeboat

2878
02:43:55,240 --> 02:43:59,000
Speaker 8: Association is still alive and well in the UK and

2879
02:43:59,560 --> 02:44:01,920
Speaker 8: it does exactly what he wanted it to do. It

2880
02:44:03,600 --> 02:44:06,360
Speaker 8: looks after people in distress at sea without fear or favor,

2881
02:44:06,400 --> 02:44:09,280
Speaker 8: and it's an example of mutual aid, I guess, because

2882
02:44:09,320 --> 02:44:13,640
Speaker 8: the people who do this as volunteers are always putting

2883
02:44:13,680 --> 02:44:19,280
Speaker 8: themselves at risk of peril or drowning, if you like,

2884
02:44:19,680 --> 02:44:22,359
Speaker 8: in order to try and preserve the lives of others.

2885
02:44:22,800 --> 02:44:26,279
Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's a very at least from my memory,

2886
02:44:26,320 --> 02:44:29,640
Speaker 7: an institution. I've never really heard of anyone having negative

2887
02:44:29,680 --> 02:44:33,640
Speaker 7: opinions about lifeboats until relatively recently. There was always a

2888
02:44:33,680 --> 02:44:36,120
Speaker 7: lifeboat shaped thing that you could put money in, like

2889
02:44:36,160 --> 02:44:38,680
Speaker 7: a donation box, and people just put money in it

2890
02:44:38,680 --> 02:44:39,920
Speaker 7: and no one was like, oh, I don't.

2891
02:44:39,760 --> 02:44:40,480
Speaker 9: Like the lifeboats.

2892
02:44:42,080 --> 02:44:45,440
Speaker 7: But recently I suppose I've come under fire from Britain first,

2893
02:44:46,879 --> 02:44:51,640
Speaker 7: for I think they would phrase it as like encouraging

2894
02:44:51,720 --> 02:44:54,440
Speaker 7: people to take the risk of traveling on small boats

2895
02:44:54,480 --> 02:44:59,120
Speaker 7: to the United Kingdom to claim asylum. And can you

2896
02:44:59,240 --> 02:45:01,920
Speaker 7: characterize I don't want you to characterize that attack because

2897
02:45:01,920 --> 02:45:06,160
Speaker 7: it's relatively easy to characterize and it's you know, it

2898
02:45:06,400 --> 02:45:07,400
Speaker 7: doesn't need much explaining.

2899
02:45:07,400 --> 02:45:07,920
Speaker 9: It's stupid.

2900
02:45:07,959 --> 02:45:11,520
Speaker 7: But the response to that, because I think it has

2901
02:45:11,560 --> 02:45:14,560
Speaker 7: been quite It's easy for people in America to see

2902
02:45:14,600 --> 02:45:17,039
Speaker 7: Britain as like a parochial at island full of turfs.

2903
02:45:17,080 --> 02:45:22,600
Speaker 7: But I think actually most people were still like most

2904
02:45:22,600 --> 02:45:25,320
Speaker 7: people were pretty I guess offended by the thought that

2905
02:45:25,320 --> 02:45:28,120
Speaker 7: we'd allow people to drown rather than coming to our

2906
02:45:28,160 --> 02:45:29,560
Speaker 7: country right to claim asylum.

2907
02:45:29,760 --> 02:45:32,080
Speaker 9: Is that fair statement, Yeah, I think so.

2908
02:45:32,160 --> 02:45:35,600
Speaker 8: I mean I think it was astonishing actually, or I

2909
02:45:35,600 --> 02:45:38,760
Speaker 8: think it astonished people that the Lifeboat Association would be

2910
02:45:38,760 --> 02:45:41,840
Speaker 8: politicized in the way that was attempted by the right.

2911
02:45:42,720 --> 02:45:48,000
Speaker 8: The whole idea of picking and choosing who one would

2912
02:45:48,040 --> 02:45:50,600
Speaker 8: rescue at sea is simply preposterous. And as you say,

2913
02:45:50,640 --> 02:45:55,200
Speaker 8: I mean, you know, the Lifeboat Association is widely supported.

2914
02:45:55,240 --> 02:45:57,879
Speaker 8: I mean you tend to see offices of the Lifeboat

2915
02:45:57,920 --> 02:46:01,600
Speaker 8: Association at seasides, so you know, this is a you know,

2916
02:46:01,680 --> 02:46:05,199
Speaker 8: the environment is the holiday environment, it's the beach environment.

2917
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:10,800
Speaker 8: It's part of being together in a place which is

2918
02:46:11,000 --> 02:46:15,160
Speaker 8: enjoyed by people together, but which also has its risks.

2919
02:46:15,160 --> 02:46:16,959
Speaker 8: And I mean the first time I think, you know,

2920
02:46:17,000 --> 02:46:21,000
Speaker 8: I came across the Lifeboat Association was was actually through

2921
02:46:21,000 --> 02:46:25,200
Speaker 8: an appeal that was made through a very popular and

2922
02:46:25,280 --> 02:46:29,000
Speaker 8: well known BBC television program for children, which was called

2923
02:46:29,040 --> 02:46:33,680
Speaker 8: Blue Peter. And you know, they funded a boat by

2924
02:46:33,720 --> 02:46:37,320
Speaker 8: asking kids to send in milk bottle tops which could

2925
02:46:37,360 --> 02:46:40,600
Speaker 8: be melted down and turned into an eminium or whatever

2926
02:46:40,640 --> 02:46:42,200
Speaker 8: it was. And then you know, this is how they

2927
02:46:42,200 --> 02:46:44,560
Speaker 8: funded a lifeboat. I mean, so this this, you know,

2928
02:46:44,680 --> 02:46:47,800
Speaker 8: lifeboats aren't deeply rooted I think, I mean, the support

2929
02:46:47,840 --> 02:46:51,320
Speaker 8: for lifeboats are deeply rooted in people's psyche in this country.

2930
02:46:51,360 --> 02:46:55,240
Speaker 8: And and as I say, I think it was it

2931
02:46:55,320 --> 02:46:58,920
Speaker 8: was interesting. I guess that these these calls from the

2932
02:46:59,000 --> 02:47:02,520
Speaker 8: rights that the Lifeboats Association was somehow doing wrong in

2933
02:47:02,680 --> 02:47:05,600
Speaker 8: looking after migrant boats, I mean, the small boats, really

2934
02:47:05,680 --> 02:47:09,600
Speaker 8: vulnerable dinghies that were being sailed across the Channel. I

2935
02:47:09,680 --> 02:47:16,120
Speaker 8: just think the it gained absolutely no traction because it

2936
02:47:16,280 --> 02:47:20,279
Speaker 8: simply didn't speak to people's public perception or or deeply

2937
02:47:20,280 --> 02:47:22,760
Speaker 8: held perceptions if you like, of the role of this association.

2938
02:47:23,440 --> 02:47:27,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, and there's been a really significant campaign to dehumanize

2939
02:47:28,280 --> 02:47:32,000
Speaker 7: migrants in the UK even perhaps to a degree greater

2940
02:47:32,120 --> 02:47:35,120
Speaker 7: than we've seen in much of the US, although there's

2941
02:47:35,640 --> 02:47:39,039
Speaker 7: complete bipartisan consensus that we should criminalize people coming here

2942
02:47:39,160 --> 02:47:42,480
Speaker 7: in the United States too. And I spent people will

2943
02:47:42,480 --> 02:47:45,280
Speaker 7: have heard that I spent the last week driving along

2944
02:47:45,400 --> 02:47:49,280
Speaker 7: the border seeing little children forced to be held in

2945
02:47:49,320 --> 02:47:52,320
Speaker 7: the desert with no shade and no water. It's also

2946
02:47:52,400 --> 02:47:55,200
Speaker 7: very brutal here. But I think it says something that

2947
02:47:55,200 --> 02:47:58,600
Speaker 7: that's an institution that looks like that was a line

2948
02:47:58,640 --> 02:48:01,480
Speaker 7: that wasn't cross I guess by the right, and this

2949
02:48:01,560 --> 02:48:06,240
Speaker 7: demonization of migrants. So we're having established that this is

2950
02:48:06,280 --> 02:48:09,840
Speaker 7: a very cherished and important institution. Can we talk about

2951
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:13,040
Speaker 7: how mutual aid is something that because I think it

2952
02:48:13,320 --> 02:48:17,720
Speaker 7: can seem understandably to people who have been educated in

2953
02:48:18,560 --> 02:48:22,480
Speaker 7: the sort of neoliberal consensus, that certainly it is very

2954
02:48:22,480 --> 02:48:25,480
Speaker 7: common in schools and universities in both of our countries.

2955
02:48:26,240 --> 02:48:28,279
Speaker 7: How this has in fact been like part of human

2956
02:48:28,360 --> 02:48:30,320
Speaker 7: history for as long as as people have been living

2957
02:48:30,360 --> 02:48:34,200
Speaker 7: in societies, and how it's a natural human response to

2958
02:48:34,560 --> 02:48:35,400
Speaker 7: want to do this.

2959
02:48:36,840 --> 02:48:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2960
02:48:37,600 --> 02:48:39,880
Speaker 8: So I mean, I think this takes us back to

2961
02:48:40,360 --> 02:48:46,120
Speaker 8: Kropotkins theorization, if you like, of mutual aid. So I

2962
02:48:46,160 --> 02:48:48,640
Speaker 8: mean talking about sort of you know, our neoliberal culture.

2963
02:48:48,640 --> 02:48:51,920
Speaker 8: I mean, Cropotkin's writing in a time where you have

2964
02:48:52,040 --> 02:48:58,320
Speaker 8: a similar kind of individualism being stoked, and it's being

2965
02:48:58,360 --> 02:49:03,320
Speaker 8: stoked particularly through a notion of of social Darwinism. So

2966
02:49:03,560 --> 02:49:07,680
Speaker 8: the idea that fitness is linked to or that the

2967
02:49:07,720 --> 02:49:12,720
Speaker 8: survival is linked to individual fitness, and that competition is

2968
02:49:12,760 --> 02:49:16,119
Speaker 8: the is the basic rule of life, and that therefore

2969
02:49:16,160 --> 02:49:21,200
Speaker 8: not only individuals, but states as well should be you know,

2970
02:49:21,280 --> 02:49:25,680
Speaker 8: pitting themselves against each other in order to gain advantage

2971
02:49:25,680 --> 02:49:29,920
Speaker 8: and to secure their own well being. And Kropotkin wanted

2972
02:49:29,920 --> 02:49:32,640
Speaker 8: to sort of challenge this argument, and so the way

2973
02:49:32,680 --> 02:49:36,840
Speaker 8: he did it was to say two things. One that

2974
02:49:36,840 --> 02:49:39,920
Speaker 8: that biological fitness is not linked to competition. It's actually

2975
02:49:39,920 --> 02:49:44,760
Speaker 8: linked to cooperation. So individuals in any species cannot survive

2976
02:49:44,840 --> 02:49:49,280
Speaker 8: unless they have support from from from others in their species.

2977
02:49:49,280 --> 02:49:52,160
Speaker 8: I mean, it's simply, you know, that's that's how biology works.

2978
02:49:52,560 --> 02:49:57,440
Speaker 8: So whatever advantage that individuals might might you know, acquire,

2979
02:49:58,280 --> 02:50:00,760
Speaker 8: actually their well being depends on the co operation or

2980
02:50:00,800 --> 02:50:04,000
Speaker 8: the collective practices that they have with others. So he

2981
02:50:04,080 --> 02:50:07,039
Speaker 8: recognized that there was interspecies competition, but he said, basically

2982
02:50:07,080 --> 02:50:11,520
Speaker 8: within species survivalist based in cooperation. And from that he

2983
02:50:11,640 --> 02:50:15,160
Speaker 8: then said, you know, one of the things that we

2984
02:50:15,200 --> 02:50:18,360
Speaker 8: can learn from this, from this sort of re under

2985
02:50:18,480 --> 02:50:22,520
Speaker 8: or from this sort of review of social Darwinism, is

2986
02:50:23,200 --> 02:50:29,120
Speaker 8: to think about how we can encourage cooperation as a

2987
02:50:29,160 --> 02:50:32,800
Speaker 8: moral value. And he said, you know, the way then

2988
02:50:32,840 --> 02:50:36,680
Speaker 8: we because that's a good thing. Surely it's it's you know,

2989
02:50:36,760 --> 02:50:40,440
Speaker 8: if we're biologically attuned to cooperate, then why don't we

2990
02:50:40,480 --> 02:50:43,360
Speaker 8: make this a principle of our lives. And he said

2991
02:50:43,360 --> 02:50:45,080
Speaker 8: that the way that we should do this is by

2992
02:50:47,320 --> 02:50:50,720
Speaker 8: configuring our social arrangements or our environments, if you like,

2993
02:50:50,800 --> 02:50:55,000
Speaker 8: in ways that enabled us to see that we were

2994
02:50:57,280 --> 02:51:00,240
Speaker 8: we were affected by the same sorts of problem, that

2995
02:51:00,280 --> 02:51:02,879
Speaker 8: we had affinities with each other, that there was a

2996
02:51:02,920 --> 02:51:06,119
Speaker 8: basic relationship that we had with each other, not only

2997
02:51:06,160 --> 02:51:09,640
Speaker 8: with family members and friends, but with strangers too, and

2998
02:51:09,680 --> 02:51:12,400
Speaker 8: that once we could understand that, then actually we could

2999
02:51:12,440 --> 02:51:15,879
Speaker 8: sort of organize our social lives in ways that were

3000
02:51:15,959 --> 02:51:19,000
Speaker 8: supportive of others when they were in positions of need

3001
02:51:19,080 --> 02:51:20,720
Speaker 8: or when they're in situations of need.

3002
02:51:21,200 --> 02:51:24,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, so how would one go about doing that? It

3003
02:51:24,840 --> 02:51:29,240
Speaker 7: can seem look where I live. Thousands of people live

3004
02:51:29,280 --> 02:51:31,160
Speaker 7: on the street, right and I can watch people every

3005
02:51:31,200 --> 02:51:33,000
Speaker 7: day walk past people who just need a little bit

3006
02:51:33,040 --> 02:51:34,760
Speaker 7: of help and not give it to them, and it

3007
02:51:34,760 --> 02:51:38,280
Speaker 7: can be very disheartening. And so how do we begin

3008
02:51:38,360 --> 02:51:41,879
Speaker 7: to organize in a way that recognizes our sort of

3009
02:51:41,920 --> 02:51:42,760
Speaker 7: mutual dependence.

3010
02:51:44,680 --> 02:51:46,960
Speaker 8: So, I mean, part of the arguments, I think is

3011
02:51:47,000 --> 02:51:52,480
Speaker 8: that people will fill the gaps when they see that

3012
02:51:52,520 --> 02:51:54,959
Speaker 8: others are in need. And that's exactly what the Lifeboat

3013
02:51:54,959 --> 02:51:58,080
Speaker 8: Association does, and that's exactly what happened during the pandemic

3014
02:51:58,120 --> 02:52:02,000
Speaker 8: for example. So you know, not surprisingly one of the

3015
02:52:02,000 --> 02:52:04,800
Speaker 8: things that happened in the first weeks of the pandemic

3016
02:52:04,879 --> 02:52:07,240
Speaker 8: was the mushrooming of groups that call themselves mutual aid

3017
02:52:07,240 --> 02:52:10,600
Speaker 8: societies mutual aid associations, and they were networked. I mean,

3018
02:52:10,640 --> 02:52:12,840
Speaker 8: somebody set up a website so that you know, people

3019
02:52:12,840 --> 02:52:15,640
Speaker 8: could see exactly where these groups were. They were networked

3020
02:52:15,640 --> 02:52:17,800
Speaker 8: in the UK. I think there were some relationships that

3021
02:52:17,840 --> 02:52:21,200
Speaker 8: were even transatlantic. So part of the argument is that

3022
02:52:21,240 --> 02:52:23,520
Speaker 8: you don't have to plan this, and in fact, mutual

3023
02:52:23,560 --> 02:52:25,959
Speaker 8: aid is an unplanned is best thought of as an

3024
02:52:26,040 --> 02:52:29,760
Speaker 8: unplanned response. But I guess the other thing is all

3025
02:52:29,800 --> 02:52:33,000
Speaker 8: the question that mutual aid begs is that, you know,

3026
02:52:33,080 --> 02:52:36,760
Speaker 8: if people get together in times to fill the gaps,

3027
02:52:36,879 --> 02:52:39,560
Speaker 8: if you liked to provide support for people who were

3028
02:52:39,560 --> 02:52:43,280
Speaker 8: in need, then how do they sustain those organizations over

3029
02:52:43,360 --> 02:52:47,720
Speaker 8: periods of time without suffering burnout and all the rest

3030
02:52:47,720 --> 02:52:51,520
Speaker 8: of it. And I think that really then depends on.

3031
02:52:52,920 --> 02:52:53,959
Speaker 4: You know, sort of.

3032
02:52:54,080 --> 02:52:56,440
Speaker 8: Establishing I guess, I mean, you know, that's again why

3033
02:52:56,480 --> 02:52:59,879
Speaker 8: we should take some heart. I think from the Lifeboat Association,

3034
02:53:00,040 --> 02:53:02,400
Speaker 8: it's been going a long time. It is possible to

3035
02:53:02,440 --> 02:53:05,960
Speaker 8: do these things, but it's difficult, and it does require

3036
02:53:06,520 --> 02:53:09,400
Speaker 8: that you learn how to cooperate with people who you

3037
02:53:09,480 --> 02:53:11,959
Speaker 8: might not otherwise work with, you might not otherwise think

3038
02:53:12,040 --> 02:53:15,440
Speaker 8: you have anything in common with, But where you find

3039
02:53:15,440 --> 02:53:19,960
Speaker 8: that common ground in order to undertake practical activities in

3040
02:53:20,120 --> 02:53:21,520
Speaker 8: collaboration with each other?

3041
02:53:22,080 --> 02:53:25,560
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's very question. I'm always like in

3042
02:53:25,600 --> 02:53:28,080
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen, I don't know if you were familiar with

3043
02:53:28,080 --> 02:53:30,520
Speaker 7: it's been in the southern border of the United States.

3044
02:53:30,560 --> 02:53:32,440
Speaker 7: We had a large group of migrants coming here from

3045
02:53:32,520 --> 02:53:36,040
Speaker 7: Central America who became like a sort of talking point

3046
02:53:36,040 --> 02:53:38,640
Speaker 7: in the mid terms through no fault of their own,

3047
02:53:38,879 --> 02:53:40,680
Speaker 7: and they were held at the US border and then

3048
02:53:40,720 --> 02:53:43,560
Speaker 7: tear gas from the sort of Tommy Hilfiger gist out

3049
02:53:43,560 --> 02:53:47,520
Speaker 7: store in San Diego. And I was really impressed with

3050
02:53:47,560 --> 02:53:49,600
Speaker 7: Like I was there trying to help with my friends

3051
02:53:50,040 --> 02:53:52,560
Speaker 7: and sort of trying to do anarchist things, but also

3052
02:53:53,200 --> 02:53:56,600
Speaker 7: there were people who were older ladies from churches and

3053
02:53:56,640 --> 02:54:00,600
Speaker 7: people from mosques and people from synagogues and very much

3054
02:54:01,040 --> 02:54:03,440
Speaker 7: willing to work together, and you know, like you know,

3055
02:54:03,520 --> 02:54:05,520
Speaker 7: we'd go to cost go together and spend thousands of

3056
02:54:05,560 --> 02:54:08,920
Speaker 7: thousands on water and nappies for babies and such. But

3057
02:54:09,560 --> 02:54:12,879
Speaker 7: I think getting past that initial sort of I'm not

3058
02:54:12,920 --> 02:54:15,440
Speaker 7: a person who works for people who go to church too,

3059
02:54:15,480 --> 02:54:16,920
Speaker 7: like what this person wants to help and so do

3060
02:54:17,000 --> 02:54:21,440
Speaker 7: I was what allowed that to happen? Can you preps

3061
02:54:21,440 --> 02:54:25,720
Speaker 7: think of other examples that people I'm interested in things

3062
02:54:25,760 --> 02:54:27,640
Speaker 7: like the lifeboats, which people might not see through the

3063
02:54:27,720 --> 02:54:31,400
Speaker 7: lens of mutual aid because there's such established institutions that

3064
02:54:31,400 --> 02:54:33,240
Speaker 7: they there's an assumption. I think a lot of people

3065
02:54:33,240 --> 02:54:35,560
Speaker 7: probably think that there's some kind of state involvement with

3066
02:54:35,600 --> 02:54:39,080
Speaker 7: the lifeboats, right, and the same with lots of sort

3067
02:54:39,120 --> 02:54:42,640
Speaker 7: of the societies that exist to prevent cruelty to animals

3068
02:54:42,680 --> 02:54:44,800
Speaker 7: and children and that kind of thing, right, those aren't

3069
02:54:44,800 --> 02:54:47,560
Speaker 7: state funded either in the UK. Can you think of

3070
02:54:47,600 --> 02:54:49,880
Speaker 7: other examples of mutual aid that people might have sort

3071
02:54:49,879 --> 02:54:53,320
Speaker 7: of not realized are entirely driven by society and not

3072
02:54:53,320 --> 02:54:53,680
Speaker 7: the state.

3073
02:54:54,920 --> 02:54:55,440
Speaker 2: Well, I suppose.

3074
02:54:55,640 --> 02:54:58,360
Speaker 8: I mean, the best or one of the best examples

3075
02:54:58,640 --> 02:55:01,520
Speaker 8: recently in the US context is the establishment of the

3076
02:55:01,520 --> 02:55:06,160
Speaker 8: Common Ground Collective after Hurricane Katrina. So the aid that

3077
02:55:06,200 --> 02:55:09,359
Speaker 8: first went into the people who were stricken by Katrina

3078
02:55:09,680 --> 02:55:12,240
Speaker 8: was not provided by the state. In fact, you know,

3079
02:55:12,360 --> 02:55:15,640
Speaker 8: that came a lot later, but it was provided by

3080
02:55:15,680 --> 02:55:18,360
Speaker 8: people who, you know, by by groups of people who

3081
02:55:19,400 --> 02:55:22,000
Speaker 8: who thought that they, you know, they could offer medical

3082
02:55:22,000 --> 02:55:26,800
Speaker 8: support or set up systems of you or help set

3083
02:55:26,879 --> 02:55:31,160
Speaker 8: up systems of of of basic supply and rescue. And

3084
02:55:31,400 --> 02:55:34,120
Speaker 8: and that's exactly what happened, and the Common Ground Collective

3085
02:55:34,200 --> 02:55:36,480
Speaker 8: was established as a result of it. I mean, you

3086
02:55:36,560 --> 02:55:39,800
Speaker 8: find this sort of thing, I mean, I mean, it's

3087
02:55:39,840 --> 02:55:44,720
Speaker 8: it's fairly usual in times of you know, sudden emergency

3088
02:55:44,720 --> 02:55:47,760
Speaker 8: and crisis that actually the people who who do the

3089
02:55:47,879 --> 02:55:52,200
Speaker 8: hands on work of actually taking people off off you know,

3090
02:55:52,440 --> 02:55:55,720
Speaker 8: the how the roofs of flooded houses and all the

3091
02:55:55,720 --> 02:55:59,720
Speaker 8: rest of it. These are local people typically, they're not

3092
02:56:00,440 --> 02:56:03,480
Speaker 8: the agencies who often you know, take a lot of

3093
02:56:03,480 --> 02:56:05,800
Speaker 8: time to get there. I mean the other examples, I

3094
02:56:05,800 --> 02:56:10,320
Speaker 8: think in the American context again which are often rooted

3095
02:56:10,320 --> 02:56:15,480
Speaker 8: around church groups, but certainly a lot of black people's

3096
02:56:15,560 --> 02:56:18,280
Speaker 8: organizations which you know, who couldn't you know, where they

3097
02:56:18,320 --> 02:56:24,640
Speaker 8: couldn't access support services set up mutual aid societies because

3098
02:56:24,680 --> 02:56:27,080
Speaker 8: that was the if you like, the only alternative that

3099
02:56:27,120 --> 02:56:30,600
Speaker 8: they would have in order to provide you know, sort

3100
02:56:30,640 --> 02:56:35,720
Speaker 8: of clubs for their kids and breakfast clubs and any

3101
02:56:35,800 --> 02:56:36,920
Speaker 8: kind of welfare at all.

3102
02:56:37,879 --> 02:56:38,560
Speaker 9: That that was.

3103
02:56:38,520 --> 02:56:40,680
Speaker 8: The that was the root of it. The other example,

3104
02:56:40,720 --> 02:56:42,840
Speaker 8: I mean Kropotkin looks at, I mean these are nineteenth

3105
02:56:42,840 --> 02:56:45,880
Speaker 8: cent and nineteenth center example, which is sort of something

3106
02:56:45,879 --> 02:56:51,360
Speaker 8: that's later absorbed by the state. Are the the the

3107
02:56:51,680 --> 02:56:56,080
Speaker 8: the the insurance arrangements that were that were made by

3108
02:56:57,360 --> 02:57:01,879
Speaker 8: miners to look after are those who were injured down

3109
02:57:01,920 --> 02:57:04,320
Speaker 8: the mines and their families in the event of their death.

3110
02:57:05,200 --> 02:57:09,480
Speaker 8: So you know, they were setting up their own systems

3111
02:57:09,480 --> 02:57:13,000
Speaker 8: of contribution to ensure that those families would be provided

3112
02:57:13,040 --> 02:57:15,680
Speaker 8: for if the worst came to the worst. And you know,

3113
02:57:15,720 --> 02:57:17,640
Speaker 8: eventually this gets taken up by the station and it's

3114
02:57:17,640 --> 02:57:21,080
Speaker 8: sold back to you as national insurance. That these systems

3115
02:57:21,120 --> 02:57:25,320
Speaker 8: are you know, they're established essentially by local people for

3116
02:57:25,400 --> 02:57:26,280
Speaker 8: their own benefits.

3117
02:57:26,760 --> 02:57:29,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, perhaps we ought to talk about that because there's

3118
02:57:29,040 --> 02:57:32,640
Speaker 7: a lot of these spontaneous societal things, especially in the UK,

3119
02:57:32,720 --> 02:57:35,400
Speaker 7: that are corrupted by the state and then sold back

3120
02:57:35,400 --> 02:57:38,800
Speaker 7: to us and then gradually stripped away of the very

3121
02:57:39,160 --> 02:57:41,039
Speaker 7: essence of what they're supposed to be, at the National

3122
02:57:41,080 --> 02:57:44,800
Speaker 7: Health Service being another example. Can you talk about the

3123
02:57:44,959 --> 02:57:48,240
Speaker 7: danger of that kind of state maybe dangers who are

3124
02:57:48,280 --> 02:57:51,000
Speaker 7: on word, But there can be a state capture of

3125
02:57:51,080 --> 02:57:56,439
Speaker 7: mutual aid efforts which can sometimes one might argue, always

3126
02:57:56,640 --> 02:57:58,880
Speaker 7: like strip them of the essence of what they are.

3127
02:57:59,240 --> 02:58:00,160
Speaker 9: Is that fair to say?

3128
02:58:01,760 --> 02:58:04,560
Speaker 8: Well, it certainly changes this. Well, I mean so so

3129
02:58:04,640 --> 02:58:09,160
Speaker 8: state welfare changes the relationships that that people have to

3130
02:58:09,360 --> 02:58:14,560
Speaker 8: those institutions, and and so in one sense it's it

3131
02:58:14,640 --> 02:58:18,120
Speaker 8: alleviates the burden of of of running those institutions. But

3132
02:58:18,240 --> 02:58:21,280
Speaker 8: in the on the other hand, it it does two things.

3133
02:58:21,280 --> 02:58:24,440
Speaker 8: I think one is that it it tends to encourage

3134
02:58:24,480 --> 02:58:29,879
Speaker 8: the idea that looking after each other is somebody else's responsibility.

3135
02:58:30,160 --> 02:58:33,600
Speaker 8: So actually it diminishes or it disincentivizes the sort of

3136
02:58:33,640 --> 02:58:42,160
Speaker 8: the that that stimulus to help each other directly. So

3137
02:58:42,320 --> 02:58:44,600
Speaker 8: mutual aid is a kind of direct action, if you like.

3138
02:58:45,640 --> 02:58:49,640
Speaker 8: Whereas you know, once we give these these processes over

3139
02:58:49,720 --> 02:58:52,760
Speaker 8: to the state, then actually we start to see people

3140
02:58:52,800 --> 02:58:55,680
Speaker 8: in different in different ways. So we do start to

3141
02:58:55,959 --> 02:58:59,760
Speaker 8: get the language of scrounging or of you know, idle,

3142
02:58:59,800 --> 02:59:04,400
Speaker 8: the es, deserving, undeserving poor. All of those things come

3143
02:59:04,440 --> 02:59:06,640
Speaker 8: from the idea that we're paying into an institution and

3144
02:59:06,720 --> 02:59:11,400
Speaker 8: not necessarily being guaranteeed that we're getting value for money.

3145
02:59:11,440 --> 02:59:14,680
Speaker 8: So we start to see the institution slightly differently. And

3146
02:59:14,760 --> 02:59:20,000
Speaker 8: I think the other thing is that the I mean

3147
02:59:20,040 --> 02:59:22,920
Speaker 8: the worry I guess of of that sort of co

3148
02:59:23,000 --> 02:59:27,560
Speaker 8: optation is that it's it conceals the other things that

3149
02:59:27,320 --> 02:59:30,560
Speaker 8: the state does. So welfare is the last thing, if

3150
02:59:30,600 --> 02:59:34,760
Speaker 8: you like, that that states assume as a responsibility, and

3151
02:59:34,800 --> 02:59:38,760
Speaker 8: it and it provides a gloss, if you like, on

3152
02:59:38,840 --> 02:59:43,960
Speaker 8: the law and order function that the state serves. Uh

3153
02:59:44,280 --> 02:59:47,440
Speaker 8: and and somehow sort of makes the state look a

3154
02:59:47,440 --> 02:59:51,360
Speaker 8: bit friendlier than perhaps we should think it is. And

3155
02:59:51,520 --> 02:59:53,920
Speaker 8: I mean this, you know, when the I suppose that

3156
02:59:54,000 --> 02:59:55,400
Speaker 8: I mean the term that was used in the in

3157
02:59:55,400 --> 02:59:58,000
Speaker 8: the British context. In the in the the immediate post

3158
02:59:58,000 --> 03:00:00,320
Speaker 8: war period was not the welfare state, it was the

3159
03:00:00,360 --> 03:00:03,920
Speaker 8: warfare state, because the idea was that the introduction of welfare,

3160
03:00:05,000 --> 03:00:08,080
Speaker 8: which starts really after the after the Second World War,

3161
03:00:08,680 --> 03:00:13,320
Speaker 8: concealed the violence that the state was otherwise perpetuating elsewhere.

3162
03:00:13,879 --> 03:00:16,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's very It's something we should consider

3163
03:00:17,000 --> 03:00:18,600
Speaker 7: very strongly when we're looking at these things.

3164
03:00:18,680 --> 03:00:18,800
Speaker 4: Right.

3165
03:00:18,840 --> 03:00:22,400
Speaker 7: I think it also strips the like the person to

3166
03:00:22,480 --> 03:00:25,760
Speaker 7: person aspect of mutual aid from mutual aid, like the

3167
03:00:27,160 --> 03:00:30,760
Speaker 7: certainly the most common sort of mutual aid responses I've

3168
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:34,800
Speaker 7: been part of, to health crises and then to along

3169
03:00:34,840 --> 03:00:35,280
Speaker 7: the border.

3170
03:00:35,360 --> 03:00:37,320
Speaker 9: And part of.

3171
03:00:37,160 --> 03:00:40,879
Speaker 7: What makes that very meaningful is people saying, like, you know,

3172
03:00:40,959 --> 03:00:43,160
Speaker 7: this is a this is a line between two states,

3173
03:00:43,160 --> 03:00:46,280
Speaker 7: but it's not a line between two people or two communities. Right,

3174
03:00:46,280 --> 03:00:49,000
Speaker 7: And you are welcome because I am of this community

3175
03:00:49,000 --> 03:00:51,200
Speaker 7: and I want you to come here, which you do

3176
03:00:51,240 --> 03:00:54,000
Speaker 7: not get when you know there's a man in green

3177
03:00:54,040 --> 03:00:57,879
Speaker 7: combat pants throwing MRIs from the back of a pickup truck, like.

3178
03:00:57,840 --> 03:00:59,119
Speaker 9: That doesn't that's right?

3179
03:00:59,480 --> 03:01:01,720
Speaker 8: And equally I suppose that, I mean, that's the other thing.

3180
03:01:01,760 --> 03:01:03,280
Speaker 8: I mean that's that's kind of what I was trying

3181
03:01:03,320 --> 03:01:05,200
Speaker 8: to get at that. You know, once you have a

3182
03:01:05,480 --> 03:01:08,800
Speaker 8: once you have state welfare, you have concepts of access

3183
03:01:08,840 --> 03:01:12,560
Speaker 8: through citizenship, and that reinforces the idea that there's a

3184
03:01:12,600 --> 03:01:16,360
Speaker 8: there's a right of access, and then there's a there's

3185
03:01:16,360 --> 03:01:20,320
Speaker 8: an exclusion that necessarily follows from that, and so you know,

3186
03:01:20,360 --> 03:01:25,800
Speaker 8: the relationship becomes much more transactional rather than which is

3187
03:01:25,840 --> 03:01:28,640
Speaker 8: the way that the mutual aid is couched in in

3188
03:01:28,640 --> 03:01:33,040
Speaker 8: the anarchist lexicon. You know, it's it's it's it's driven

3189
03:01:33,120 --> 03:01:40,000
Speaker 8: by by altruism and and and giving without without the

3190
03:01:40,080 --> 03:01:41,200
Speaker 8: expectation of reward.

3191
03:01:41,920 --> 03:01:44,400
Speaker 7: Yes, yeah, I think that's very important. It doesn't imply

3192
03:01:44,480 --> 03:01:46,959
Speaker 7: a power or an expectation of sort of reciprocity.

3193
03:01:47,040 --> 03:01:49,000
Speaker 4: It's it.

3194
03:01:50,400 --> 03:01:54,440
Speaker 7: I forget exactly where I read this. Terrible at these things,

3195
03:01:54,440 --> 03:01:57,440
Speaker 7: but like I guess you don't do it in a

3196
03:01:57,440 --> 03:02:00,120
Speaker 7: selfish sense. But it benefits you as well as the

3197
03:02:00,200 --> 03:02:03,120
Speaker 7: person you are giving too in because those people are

3198
03:02:03,120 --> 03:02:04,000
Speaker 7: part of your community.

3199
03:02:04,040 --> 03:02:04,480
Speaker 9: Is that fair?

3200
03:02:04,520 --> 03:02:08,400
Speaker 7: And you shouldn't be complete if people are suffering, like

3201
03:02:08,520 --> 03:02:09,160
Speaker 7: right next to you.

3202
03:02:09,520 --> 03:02:10,119
Speaker 5: Yes, So I.

3203
03:02:10,080 --> 03:02:12,840
Speaker 8: Suppose there's a sort of there's a there's an argument

3204
03:02:12,879 --> 03:02:15,440
Speaker 8: to say that, I mean that that comes from the

3205
03:02:15,640 --> 03:02:22,160
Speaker 8: from the notion of of of recasting what it is

3206
03:02:22,680 --> 03:02:26,680
Speaker 8: to be an individual. So you know, you're you're your

3207
03:02:26,760 --> 03:02:29,800
Speaker 8: personal enrichment actually relies on the relationships that you can

3208
03:02:29,800 --> 03:02:33,360
Speaker 8: cultivate with other people, so you know, the the quality

3209
03:02:33,400 --> 03:02:36,160
Speaker 8: of those relationships is actually something that of course benefits you.

3210
03:02:36,240 --> 03:02:38,440
Speaker 8: But I think the I mean, one of the things

3211
03:02:38,560 --> 03:02:42,360
Speaker 8: what can tells this story about a child drowning in

3212
03:02:42,400 --> 03:02:45,480
Speaker 8: a river, and he imagines three people standing on the

3213
03:02:45,560 --> 03:02:49,800
Speaker 8: river bank. One of them is a religious believer, the

3214
03:02:49,840 --> 03:02:53,400
Speaker 8: second one is he calls an ordinary bourgeois a mutilitarian,

3215
03:02:53,720 --> 03:02:55,680
Speaker 8: and the third one he doesn't describe at all. And

3216
03:02:55,720 --> 03:02:57,959
Speaker 8: he says, you know what what happens when they see

3217
03:02:57,959 --> 03:02:59,360
Speaker 8: this child in the river. And he says, well, the

3218
03:02:59,360 --> 03:03:02,640
Speaker 8: religious person is wondering, you know, I should go and

3219
03:03:02,680 --> 03:03:05,600
Speaker 8: save the child because I'll reap my reward in heaven.

3220
03:03:06,360 --> 03:03:09,120
Speaker 8: And the utilitarian is thinking, you know, if I if

3221
03:03:09,160 --> 03:03:11,200
Speaker 8: I save this child, then I'm going to feel really

3222
03:03:11,240 --> 03:03:13,480
Speaker 8: good about myself, and so therefore I should do it.

3223
03:03:13,800 --> 03:03:15,959
Speaker 8: And while they're while they're sort of going through that

3224
03:03:16,040 --> 03:03:18,800
Speaker 8: process of reasoning, the third person has just jumped in

3225
03:03:19,000 --> 03:03:22,520
Speaker 8: and saved the child, and that's mutual aid.

3226
03:03:23,400 --> 03:03:25,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, yes, I think that's very good. Yeah, it comes

3227
03:03:25,760 --> 03:03:29,040
Speaker 7: from Yeah, it doesn't need to be like overly theorized,

3228
03:03:29,040 --> 03:03:31,720
Speaker 7: I suppose, yeah, and it really doesn't, like I've never

3229
03:03:32,320 --> 03:03:34,640
Speaker 7: I think the construction of mutual aid is important because

3230
03:03:34,640 --> 03:03:36,720
Speaker 7: it allows us to join the dots across the world

3231
03:03:36,720 --> 03:03:39,840
Speaker 7: and across time and to see the relationship with the state.

3232
03:03:39,959 --> 03:03:42,680
Speaker 7: But it doesn't need you don't need to have read

3233
03:03:42,760 --> 03:03:47,120
Speaker 7: Crapotkin to like, I know a big it's sprung up

3234
03:03:47,160 --> 03:03:49,920
Speaker 7: here a lot in the pandemic too, right, like free shops,

3235
03:03:50,040 --> 03:03:53,879
Speaker 7: and certainly for older people or people who are compromised.

3236
03:03:54,480 --> 03:03:59,120
Speaker 7: I remember breaking thousands of loaves of bread from the

3237
03:03:59,400 --> 03:04:01,360
Speaker 7: pizza shop down the street wasn't able to open, so

3238
03:04:01,360 --> 03:04:02,840
Speaker 7: they would bring me flower and I would make bread

3239
03:04:02,840 --> 03:04:05,080
Speaker 7: and we would take it to people, and things like

3240
03:04:05,120 --> 03:04:08,480
Speaker 7: that were very spontaneous and didn't particularly need like theorizing

3241
03:04:08,520 --> 03:04:12,200
Speaker 7: in terms of Popkin, But sadly they sort of we

3242
03:04:12,280 --> 03:04:15,120
Speaker 7: lost a lot of that with the you know, with

3243
03:04:15,200 --> 03:04:18,199
Speaker 7: the reduction in the severity of the pandemic, I guess,

3244
03:04:18,200 --> 03:04:20,879
Speaker 7: and I think it's important to remember that that was

3245
03:04:20,920 --> 03:04:23,000
Speaker 7: a natural response on one that we should cultivate.

3246
03:04:24,200 --> 03:04:26,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, I mean

3247
03:04:26,480 --> 03:04:28,400
Speaker 8: there were all sorts of things that were going on here.

3248
03:04:28,440 --> 03:04:30,360
Speaker 8: I mean there were people who were sewing up scrubs

3249
03:04:30,360 --> 03:04:35,680
Speaker 8: for health workers, delivering lunches to health workers, you know,

3250
03:04:35,720 --> 03:04:38,000
Speaker 8: as well as just you know, the checking on the neighbors,

3251
03:04:38,040 --> 03:04:42,440
Speaker 8: making sure that people were okay. So yeah, I mean

3252
03:04:42,480 --> 03:04:45,959
Speaker 8: it took you know, multiple different forms, and yeah, I

3253
03:04:45,959 --> 03:04:48,400
Speaker 8: mean it is difficult because you know, once real life

3254
03:04:48,760 --> 03:04:52,039
Speaker 8: as it were sort of returned and the and the

3255
03:04:52,080 --> 03:04:56,800
Speaker 8: lockdowns were relaxed, you know, people have all kinds of

3256
03:04:56,879 --> 03:05:00,720
Speaker 8: other demands on their time and and we sort of

3257
03:05:00,760 --> 03:05:03,960
Speaker 8: then get used to thinking that, you know, somebody else

3258
03:05:04,040 --> 03:05:06,120
Speaker 8: is going to pick up the pieces now.

3259
03:05:06,600 --> 03:05:10,720
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I do think that that's part of that

3260
03:05:10,800 --> 03:05:15,720
Speaker 7: lockdown nostalgia, which is bizarrely already occurring three years down

3261
03:05:15,760 --> 03:05:17,520
Speaker 7: the line. But people look back and think, oh, well,

3262
03:05:17,520 --> 03:05:20,600
Speaker 7: it wasn't that bad, and obviously thousands of people died

3263
03:05:20,640 --> 03:05:20,959
Speaker 7: that we.

3264
03:05:20,959 --> 03:05:21,960
Speaker 9: Shouldn't overlook that.

3265
03:05:22,000 --> 03:05:24,520
Speaker 7: But part of what people are looking back on is

3266
03:05:24,520 --> 03:05:27,039
Speaker 7: that sense of community, which I think so many of

3267
03:05:27,120 --> 03:05:29,880
Speaker 7: us lack. The alienation is very real for a lot

3268
03:05:29,879 --> 03:05:32,879
Speaker 7: of us, and so those mutual aid groups or watchapp

3269
03:05:32,920 --> 03:05:35,279
Speaker 7: groups and things gave people a real sense of belonging.

3270
03:05:35,360 --> 03:05:36,160
Speaker 9: I think that's the same.

3271
03:05:36,280 --> 03:05:38,000
Speaker 7: A lot of people felt that way in twenty twenty,

3272
03:05:38,040 --> 03:05:41,280
Speaker 7: for obviously there was an uprising in the United States

3273
03:05:41,280 --> 03:05:43,800
Speaker 7: which gave people a sense of purpose, which maybe they

3274
03:05:43,879 --> 03:05:48,440
Speaker 7: they're not feeling anymore. If people are interested in I

3275
03:05:48,440 --> 03:05:50,680
Speaker 7: guess there's learning and there's doing, and that they can

3276
03:05:50,720 --> 03:05:52,600
Speaker 7: be distinct or they can be done at the same time,

3277
03:05:52,800 --> 03:05:55,440
Speaker 7: and we can learn by doing. And where would people

3278
03:05:55,480 --> 03:05:57,960
Speaker 7: start they want to start their reading? Are their texts

3279
03:05:58,000 --> 03:06:00,360
Speaker 7: that you'd recommend, that you know, are not the size

3280
03:06:00,360 --> 03:06:02,880
Speaker 7: of a breeze block that people might find approachable?

3281
03:06:05,160 --> 03:06:08,160
Speaker 8: Well, you can get I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm

3282
03:06:08,320 --> 03:06:11,720
Speaker 8: I mean Potkin's book Mutual Aid is quite long. I mean,

3283
03:06:11,720 --> 03:06:14,600
Speaker 8: it's the last two chapters really that are the ones

3284
03:06:14,600 --> 03:06:18,000
Speaker 8: to read, and that's freely available online. It's I mean,

3285
03:06:18,000 --> 03:06:20,120
Speaker 8: it's a very nineteenth century kind of argument.

3286
03:06:20,200 --> 03:06:20,440
Speaker 9: I mean.

3287
03:06:20,720 --> 03:06:23,800
Speaker 8: The other I mean, the other one that I really

3288
03:06:23,840 --> 03:06:27,640
Speaker 8: like is Cindy Milstein's Anarchism and Its Aspirations, and that's short,

3289
03:06:27,720 --> 03:06:30,840
Speaker 8: it's very accessible, and she has this discussion of mutual

3290
03:06:30,879 --> 03:06:33,120
Speaker 8: Aid where she she links it to what she calls

3291
03:06:33,160 --> 03:06:37,680
Speaker 8: the ethical compass, And I think that speaks really nicely

3292
03:06:37,760 --> 03:06:42,080
Speaker 8: to the to the you know, the principles and the sentiments,

3293
03:06:42,120 --> 03:06:44,320
Speaker 8: if you like, of mutual aid, that it is this

3294
03:06:44,400 --> 03:06:47,760
Speaker 8: kind of thick relationship that people cultivate but not necessarily

3295
03:06:47,800 --> 03:06:53,360
Speaker 8: a not necessarily with a view to living in sort

3296
03:06:53,360 --> 03:06:58,720
Speaker 8: of permanently in community with each other, but actually to

3297
03:07:00,120 --> 03:07:02,640
Speaker 8: change the dynamics of the of the kind of the

3298
03:07:02,680 --> 03:07:07,960
Speaker 8: cities we live in and the detachments that we not

3299
03:07:08,040 --> 03:07:11,160
Speaker 8: only have but also sometimes kind of value. We don't

3300
03:07:11,160 --> 03:07:13,200
Speaker 8: necessarily want to live in each other's pockets. But actually

3301
03:07:13,240 --> 03:07:15,160
Speaker 8: that doesn't mean to say we can't practice much alive

3302
03:07:15,240 --> 03:07:15,680
Speaker 8: with each other.

3303
03:07:16,320 --> 03:07:19,440
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that'd be a great, great place for

3304
03:07:19,440 --> 03:07:21,720
Speaker 7: people to start if they want to read a tiny

3305
03:07:21,760 --> 03:07:22,640
Speaker 7: bio of Cropotkin.

3306
03:07:22,720 --> 03:07:26,760
Speaker 9: Dog Section Press has an excellent exit.

3307
03:07:27,200 --> 03:07:29,200
Speaker 7: I'm a big fan of their great Anarchist book. I

3308
03:07:29,240 --> 03:07:33,400
Speaker 7: think it's very approachable for Yeah.

3309
03:07:32,720 --> 03:07:36,600
Speaker 8: They're also they're also available online, Yes they are, yeah, Yeah,

3310
03:07:36,640 --> 03:07:37,560
Speaker 8: and they're illustrated.

3311
03:07:38,080 --> 03:07:40,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, they're very beautifully illustrated.

3312
03:07:41,120 --> 03:07:42,600
Speaker 7: It's been a good one for me to assign to

3313
03:07:42,680 --> 03:07:48,040
Speaker 7: students and have them approach anarchism from a non prejudice perspective,

3314
03:07:48,080 --> 03:07:50,720
Speaker 7: I suppose, which is which can be hard. Like I

3315
03:07:50,800 --> 03:07:53,240
Speaker 7: always remember coming to the US for the first time

3316
03:07:53,240 --> 03:07:55,400
Speaker 7: when I was twenty one, and like, I don't think

3317
03:07:55,400 --> 03:07:57,520
Speaker 7: I presented in a way that was particularly affable to

3318
03:07:58,720 --> 03:08:03,440
Speaker 7: the Transport Security Administration. But I, what are you doing here?

3319
03:08:03,720 --> 03:08:06,480
Speaker 7: I'm pH d student. What are you studying political violence

3320
03:08:06,480 --> 03:08:11,920
Speaker 7: and the anarchist unions? I was immediately sent to the

3321
03:08:11,920 --> 03:08:16,000
Speaker 7: little room that you go to UH and UH. I

3322
03:08:16,000 --> 03:08:18,480
Speaker 7: had some more questions to answer. But I think it's

3323
03:08:18,600 --> 03:08:21,320
Speaker 7: it's really important to present anarchism. I think through the

3324
03:08:21,400 --> 03:08:23,800
Speaker 7: lens of mut because I think so often it's viewed

3325
03:08:23,800 --> 03:08:26,560
Speaker 7: through the lens of like a predilection for chaos and violence,

3326
03:08:26,920 --> 03:08:29,680
Speaker 7: which is the opposite of what you're doing when you

3327
03:08:30,280 --> 03:08:33,080
Speaker 7: know you're giving someone a blanket or something like it's

3328
03:08:34,720 --> 03:08:37,480
Speaker 7: And so I think if people listening will at least

3329
03:08:37,480 --> 03:08:39,360
Speaker 7: be familiar with the concept of anarchism and mutual aid

3330
03:08:39,400 --> 03:08:41,360
Speaker 7: and not see it in that prejudicial way. But I

3331
03:08:41,400 --> 03:08:43,880
Speaker 7: think if we can present it to other people, you know,

3332
03:08:43,959 --> 03:08:46,440
Speaker 7: you're doing anarchism. Everyone was doing getting to start the

3333
03:08:46,480 --> 03:08:49,400
Speaker 7: pandemic when they were sewing masks. Like you say or home,

3334
03:08:49,440 --> 03:08:50,640
Speaker 7: bring hand sanitizer.

3335
03:08:51,120 --> 03:08:53,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I think that's I think that's really important

3336
03:08:53,840 --> 03:08:59,880
Speaker 8: actually to to the to the argument that the mutually

3337
03:09:01,120 --> 03:09:04,640
Speaker 8: is for everyone, So you know, you're not Anarchists are

3338
03:09:04,640 --> 03:09:06,840
Speaker 8: not trying to change people's heads or get them to

3339
03:09:06,920 --> 03:09:09,800
Speaker 8: think in particular ways when they talk about mutual aid.

3340
03:09:10,640 --> 03:09:15,920
Speaker 8: What they're doing is tapping into a propensity that exists

3341
03:09:16,240 --> 03:09:18,800
Speaker 8: within all of us. And what anarchists are saying is

3342
03:09:18,840 --> 03:09:23,080
Speaker 8: that if you, you know, if you push organizations in

3343
03:09:23,160 --> 03:09:25,879
Speaker 8: particular directions and actually you've got a better way or

3344
03:09:25,879 --> 03:09:29,840
Speaker 8: a better means of a better sort of environment within

3345
03:09:29,920 --> 03:09:35,199
Speaker 8: which you can sustain those practices. But mutual aid itself

3346
03:09:35,280 --> 03:09:38,240
Speaker 8: is not about being an anarchist. It's about being a

3347
03:09:38,280 --> 03:09:38,840
Speaker 8: human being.

3348
03:09:39,520 --> 03:09:40,680
Speaker 9: Yeah.

3349
03:09:39,920 --> 03:09:42,680
Speaker 7: I wonder so if people want to sort of build

3350
03:09:43,240 --> 03:09:45,200
Speaker 7: ways of taking care of each other without the state

3351
03:09:45,680 --> 03:09:48,520
Speaker 7: where they are, maybe they can see a problem, right

3352
03:09:48,520 --> 03:09:50,160
Speaker 7: that hasn't been addressed by the state, like one of

3353
03:09:50,160 --> 03:09:52,600
Speaker 7: those holes that you spoke about, or a problem that

3354
03:09:52,640 --> 03:09:56,320
Speaker 7: the state is addressing inadequately or in an undesirable way.

3355
03:09:56,800 --> 03:09:58,480
Speaker 7: How would they go about, Like, do you have advice

3356
03:09:58,560 --> 03:10:01,119
Speaker 7: people looking to start? It can be especially if you're

3357
03:10:01,160 --> 03:10:03,600
Speaker 7: not on social media, which I know we've had people email,

3358
03:10:03,680 --> 03:10:06,200
Speaker 7: but like I'm not on Facebook or Twitter, and how

3359
03:10:06,200 --> 03:10:08,080
Speaker 7: do I organize mutual aid? So do you have any

3360
03:10:08,120 --> 03:10:09,000
Speaker 7: suggestions for that?

3361
03:10:09,480 --> 03:10:12,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, so, I mean there are I mean there are

3362
03:10:12,360 --> 03:10:15,680
Speaker 8: normally sort of in any I mean certainly where I live,

3363
03:10:15,720 --> 03:10:17,480
Speaker 8: which is a small market town. I mean there is

3364
03:10:17,520 --> 03:10:18,600
Speaker 8: a community center there.

3365
03:10:18,800 --> 03:10:19,280
Speaker 3: I mean there are.

3366
03:10:19,280 --> 03:10:21,200
Speaker 8: Churches too, but I mean there is a sort of

3367
03:10:21,240 --> 03:10:23,160
Speaker 8: a local civic center if you like, which has all

3368
03:10:23,240 --> 03:10:27,760
Speaker 8: kinds of adverts for local groups and activities. There's a

3369
03:10:27,840 --> 03:10:30,400
Speaker 8: I mean, we're a town of sanctuary, so we're one

3370
03:10:30,440 --> 03:10:33,360
Speaker 8: of the places that migrants are sent to in order

3371
03:10:33,400 --> 03:10:38,600
Speaker 8: to register. And the people who are involved in the

3372
03:10:38,600 --> 03:10:41,520
Speaker 8: town of Sanctuary, they meet them, greet them, try and

3373
03:10:41,560 --> 03:10:45,920
Speaker 8: give them information that's useful to them. They run English

3374
03:10:45,959 --> 03:10:48,800
Speaker 8: language classes, they try and get the kids into swimming pools.

3375
03:10:48,800 --> 03:10:51,040
Speaker 8: I mean, they're all sorts of things activities that they're doing.

3376
03:10:51,360 --> 03:10:53,080
Speaker 8: So I think it's a matter of sort of seeing

3377
03:10:53,200 --> 03:10:56,720
Speaker 8: what's there, yeah, and then sort of try. I mean

3378
03:10:56,840 --> 03:10:59,600
Speaker 8: often I think people don't realize the skills they have.

3379
03:11:00,480 --> 03:11:02,240
Speaker 8: So for example, you know, if they speak more than

3380
03:11:02,280 --> 03:11:07,240
Speaker 8: one language, it's often really helpful to people who are

3381
03:11:07,320 --> 03:11:09,600
Speaker 8: arriving in a in a foreign land or a land

3382
03:11:09,600 --> 03:11:12,080
Speaker 8: that they don't they're not they're not speakers of the

3383
03:11:12,160 --> 03:11:16,640
Speaker 8: native language, you know, to help translate, to share information,

3384
03:11:17,120 --> 03:11:19,280
Speaker 8: just to point people in the direction where they can

3385
03:11:19,320 --> 03:11:21,920
Speaker 8: get help from from other agencies. So I don't think

3386
03:11:21,959 --> 03:11:23,800
Speaker 8: I mean, it seems to me that you know, mutual

3387
03:11:23,800 --> 03:11:26,960
Speaker 8: aid is not necessarily trying to sort of say you're

3388
03:11:27,000 --> 03:11:31,280
Speaker 8: not going to enable people to access support services that

3389
03:11:31,320 --> 03:11:35,119
Speaker 8: are provided. I mean, even if they're paltry services provided

3390
03:11:35,120 --> 03:11:36,879
Speaker 8: by the state. What you're trying to do is to

3391
03:11:37,040 --> 03:11:41,439
Speaker 8: meet people's needs. And there are existing groups and associations

3392
03:11:41,440 --> 03:11:43,879
Speaker 8: which are which will enable you to do that. I mean,

3393
03:11:43,879 --> 03:11:45,760
Speaker 8: you could go if you live at the seaside, you

3394
03:11:45,760 --> 03:11:49,240
Speaker 8: could go down to your local lifeboat association and see

3395
03:11:49,240 --> 03:11:51,200
Speaker 8: if they need a volunteer to run the office. You

3396
03:11:51,200 --> 03:11:54,080
Speaker 8: know there are that these are the sorts of things

3397
03:11:54,400 --> 03:11:58,280
Speaker 8: things that keep these institutions running. That's the kind of

3398
03:11:58,360 --> 03:11:59,040
Speaker 8: thing that you can do.

3399
03:11:59,520 --> 03:12:02,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that's a very good, very good suggestion

3400
03:12:02,400 --> 03:12:04,520
Speaker 7: for people. And we don't we don't need to yet

3401
03:12:04,640 --> 03:12:06,680
Speaker 7: be like turn our noses up at support for the

3402
03:12:06,720 --> 03:12:09,760
Speaker 7: state where what little is available. We should avail ourselves

3403
03:12:09,800 --> 03:12:10,920
Speaker 7: and other people who need.

3404
03:12:10,840 --> 03:12:12,680
Speaker 8: It and empower other people to get to Yeah.

3405
03:12:12,879 --> 03:12:16,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, and certainly we can't. We can't act as

3406
03:12:16,640 --> 03:12:18,480
Speaker 7: if the state doesn't exist at a time where it does.

3407
03:12:18,600 --> 03:12:20,520
Speaker 7: It's powerful and it can hurt vulnerable people.

3408
03:12:21,560 --> 03:12:21,800
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3409
03:12:21,879 --> 03:12:23,560
Speaker 7: I think that's Is there anything else you'd like to

3410
03:12:23,600 --> 03:12:25,680
Speaker 7: say before we finish up on the topic of mutual aid.

3411
03:12:28,160 --> 03:12:31,280
Speaker 8: No, I think we've covered Yeah, I think we've we've

3412
03:12:31,320 --> 03:12:33,360
Speaker 8: sort of covered it. I mean, I just I guess

3413
03:12:33,360 --> 03:12:36,400
Speaker 8: it's a you know, mutual aid is a is The

3414
03:12:36,640 --> 03:12:38,879
Speaker 8: important thing for me is that mutual aid is a

3415
03:12:39,000 --> 03:12:41,160
Speaker 8: It's an easy thing and it's and it and it

3416
03:12:41,200 --> 03:12:45,560
Speaker 8: can build and that's the the it, and it can

3417
03:12:45,600 --> 03:12:47,720
Speaker 8: be sustained. That's the joy of it. And I think

3418
03:12:47,800 --> 03:12:51,680
Speaker 8: that's the brilliant thing about the example of the Lifeboat Association. Yeah,

3419
03:12:51,680 --> 03:12:55,760
Speaker 8: we can set up all kinds of things and run them.

3420
03:12:56,120 --> 03:12:57,480
Speaker 8: We don't need to be told to do it. We

3421
03:12:57,480 --> 03:12:58,800
Speaker 8: don't need to be told how to do it.

3422
03:12:59,240 --> 03:12:59,480
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3423
03:12:59,640 --> 03:12:59,880
Speaker 12: I mean.

3424
03:13:00,160 --> 03:13:01,680
Speaker 7: One of the things that always gives me like a

3425
03:13:01,680 --> 03:13:05,560
Speaker 7: little spark of joy for such a venomble British institution

3426
03:13:05,680 --> 03:13:09,320
Speaker 7: with royal in its name, is that they celebrate for

3427
03:13:09,440 --> 03:13:14,920
Speaker 7: p Hopkins's birthday apparently, Yeah, exactly, they'll post on all

3428
03:13:14,959 --> 03:13:17,600
Speaker 7: their social media like pictures of Cropopkin, like a little

3429
03:13:17,640 --> 03:13:22,760
Speaker 7: birthday cake and the celebrations, which yeah, I think people should,

3430
03:13:23,480 --> 03:13:26,160
Speaker 7: you know, take a little moment of joy to celebrate

3431
03:13:26,200 --> 03:13:28,480
Speaker 7: these things that we've already achieved and I guess trying

3432
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:30,920
Speaker 7: and do better. Is there is there any where people

3433
03:13:31,400 --> 03:13:33,080
Speaker 7: can find you on the internet. I don't know if

3434
03:13:33,120 --> 03:13:35,360
Speaker 7: you have social media or website.

3435
03:13:35,480 --> 03:13:39,720
Speaker 8: Not on social media, but I mean easily you can

3436
03:13:39,760 --> 03:13:42,720
Speaker 8: find me at the university at Luff University. It's lo

3437
03:13:42,959 --> 03:13:45,440
Speaker 8: ugh b o r g h.

3438
03:13:46,400 --> 03:13:48,240
Speaker 7: It's one some of my colleagues have struggled with.

3439
03:13:50,240 --> 03:13:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not easy.

3440
03:13:52,520 --> 03:13:54,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, so that's the easiest post to find me in.

3441
03:13:54,480 --> 03:13:57,000
Speaker 8: My contact information is there and if anyone wants to

3442
03:13:57,000 --> 03:13:58,240
Speaker 8: write to me, then I'm happy.

3443
03:13:58,000 --> 03:13:58,440
Speaker 7: To write back.

3444
03:13:59,120 --> 03:14:01,840
Speaker 9: Wonderful, Thank you so much, say share.

3445
03:14:04,400 --> 03:14:04,600
Speaker 12: Hey.

3446
03:14:04,720 --> 03:14:07,800
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3447
03:14:07,840 --> 03:14:09,520
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe.

3448
03:14:10,120 --> 03:14:12,640
Speaker 14: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3449
03:14:12,720 --> 03:14:15,360
Speaker 14: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3450
03:14:15,440 --> 03:14:18,560
Speaker 14: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3451
03:14:18,560 --> 03:14:21,760
Speaker 14: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts, you can

3452
03:14:21,760 --> 03:14:24,480
Speaker 14: find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at

3453
03:14:24,480 --> 03:14:26,800
Speaker 14: coolzonemedia dot com, slash sources.

3454
03:14:26,920 --> 03:14:27,680
Speaker 13: Thanks for listening.