WEBVTT - Donald Trump Convicted 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.520 For the first time a former president has been convicted 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.840 of felony crimes, a New York jury found Donald Trump 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:20.680 guilty of thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.960 to conceal a hush money payment to adult film actress 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.720 Stormy Daniels in a scheme to illegally influence the twenty 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:32.240 sixteen election. After the verdict, Trump repeated his familiar complaints 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:33.000 about the case. 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.639 This was a disgrace. This was a rigged trial by 0:00:37.680 --> 0:00:42.240 a conflicted judge who was corrupted. It's a rigged trial 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.520 and disgrace. They wouldn't give us a venue change. We 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:51.640 were at five or six percent in this district, in 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:57.120 this area. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial that the 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.040 real verdict is going to be the people. 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.240 Judge Wan Mreshawn will sentence Trump on July eleventh. That's 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.000 just days before the July fifteenth Republic and National Convention, 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.280 where the party is set to officially select Trump as 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.200 its presidential nominee for the November fifth election. Joining me 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.800 is Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson, who covered the trial 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.200 from start to finish, Eric, what was the reaction Trump's 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.600 reaction in the courtroom when this verdict was read. 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.920 He did not give much reaction at all, other than 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.240 to have a very stern look on his face, sort 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.480 of a grimace. You know. You could tell from some 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.640 of his comments that he seemed to expect this verdict, 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:45.039 So he didn't seem to have an expression of surprise 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.120 or anything like that, but he did have a very 0:01:48.200 --> 0:01:51.280 stern look on his face. When he eventually left the 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:55.720 courtroom with his entourage. He did not glance at the 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.120 many members of the price who were sitting in the courtroom, 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.200 as he has done so many times during this trial, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:04.280 and then he went out to make his remarks. So 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.520 there wasn't much of a reaction at all. And actually 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.280 the judge said before the jury came out he did 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.120 not want to hear or see any reaction from anyone 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.320 in the courtroom, including trumped over with it be included 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:20.120 in that, So there really wasn't much reaction at all. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.560 It was just the sound of everyone typing away on 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:25.359 their laptop and that was it. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:27.720 It seemed as if the judge said the jury was 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:29.960 going to go home at four thirty. Then all of 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.520 a sudden we heard a verdict. Was everyone shocked that 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.680 a verdict was coming in so fast? 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:40.840 I would say everyone was taken by surprise, specifically because 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:44.120 the judge did say he called everyone into the courtroom, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.840 including the parties and their lawyers, all oppressed, had them seated, 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.160 and said it's four fifteen. Him going to be sending 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:55.120 the jury home. The end time was four thirty. There 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.239 was the option he would give the jury to stay 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:00.079 until six if they wanted, but it was unclear that 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.280 had ever been suggested to them. He just said he 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:05.320 was sending them home. So he stepped away and then 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.720 came back a few minutes later and he said, actually 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:11.400 have a note from the jury and they have a verdict. 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.800 So everyone clearly was surprised, their sort of gaps in 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:19.840 the courtroom, Everyone obviously was mostly pressed, was you know, 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.800 rushing to get the news out? And then the judge 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:25.320 said that the jury needed an extra thirty minutes to 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:28.160 fill out the verdict sheet, which, to be honest, made 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:30.480 me wonder if it wasn't a very complicated verdict sheet. 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:36.520 But everyone just waited and they eventually came out and 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:37.600 read out the verdict. 0:03:38.640 --> 0:03:41.840 So, Eric, you sat through the trial, what do you 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:45.320 think was the strongest piece of evidence in the case. 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:50.160 You know, I have to say that the testimony of 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.720 the government star witness Michael Cohen had to have had 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:59.400 a huge effect on the jury, even though he was 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.000 part of the conspiracy, and the judge said that they 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.600 couldn't as a result of that, they couldn't find Trump 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:09.400 guilty based only on Michael Cohen's words, but had to 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:11.480 take it into context of all the other testimony and 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:16.000 all the other evidence, and which really did back up 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.440 a lot of what Michael Cohen said, and he has 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:22.000 the long history of twisting the truth that was all 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.000 brought out at the trial. The defense wanted to undermine 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.320 his credibility at every step, but when it came to 0:04:27.360 --> 0:04:29.480 the words that he was saying about Trump and his 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.560 interactions with his former boss around the time when he 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:37.680 was a devoted Trump employee, you know, his fixer, his lawyer, 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:42.880 that the jury clearly accepted the things that he was 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:48.760 saying about these interactions with these you know, with the 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.320 hush money payment, the scheme that was hatched to Trump 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.760 Tower in twenty fifteen, with the publisher of the National inquirer. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.559 I know all of these details that he gave about 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.720 the efforts to suppress negative stories about his Trump's conduct 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:06.320 with women before the twenty sixteen election, it must have 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.120 rang true with the jury and they accepted it. 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.000 So now when we look back, I'll put you on 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.760 the spot for a second. It seemed to me the 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.440 jury was starting from you know, ground zero when they 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:22.520 asked the judge to start with reading readbacks of David Pecker. 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.520 Then they seemed to go fast forward. So I mean, 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.120 what do you think they were looking at there? 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:32.160 Well, my theory, which I guess as will never know, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.880 but my theory was that all of the counts, thirty 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.320 four counts, they were all very similar and they all 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:43.160 related to the same documents types of documents. But really 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.040 they all hinged on one thing. Was there a conspiracy 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.960 to you know, pay hush money to suppress these stories, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:54.560 because as we know, the money that was paid ultimately 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.680 violated election law. They were there were criminal payments that 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:02.520 supported presidential campaign by benefiting a campaign, and then of 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.920 course the documents were falsified to sort of cover that trail. 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.640 So they really, it seemed like they wanted to know, 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.640 was this conspiracy real, How was it hatched? How did 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.200 they operate under the conspiracy? So they wanted to hear 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.400 Peckers and Cohen's testimony about that twenty five minute meeting 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.240 at Trump Tower in August twenty fifteen. They wanted to 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.840 hear again exactly what they said about it and what 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:27.719 their understandings were about it. And then they wanted to 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:33.240 hear what Pecker said about, you know, about paying Karen McDougal, 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:37.560 the former Playboy model, and also Pecker telling Trump that 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.239 he should pay to get the Stormy Daniel's story out 0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.479 of the press if he could could do that. And 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.520 so it seemed like they wanted to see how Pecker 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:50.000 operated under this disagreement, how he thought it worked. So 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.880 if they went back to the to the deliberation room 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.080 after hearing all that again and said, well, you know, 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.000 this conspiracy is real, and so everything else just sort 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.000 of fell into place. You know, that's that's my theory. Well, 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.719 we may never know that's true. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.160 I want to just pick up on that for a second. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.440 The jury was anonymous a lot of times. After a 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.040 jury verdict comes in, you know, you'll as a reporter, 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:14.480 you'll see the jurors come out, and you can grab 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.560 them and ask them questions about, you know, how'd you 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.960 come to this decision, et cetera. These jurors, what happened? 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:22.760 They just disappeared after the verdict. 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.960 I don't know what they did after their verdict because 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:29.080 I was stuck in the courtroom as they were. I 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:33.320 think all escorted out. But I can tell you that 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.000 before the judge dismissed the jury, he did tell them 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.000 that the strict rules that they've been operating on the 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.880 preventing them from speaking to the press or anyone else 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:47.480 about the trial, are officially lifted, and so he said 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.560 that they were free to talk to people if they 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.800 want to. I think it was made crystal clearer to 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:55.240 this jury as a result of the anonymous nature of it. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.960 How unusual that that is, that it was all to 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.920 protect their safety. So I think it's a safe guest 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:03.960 that a lot of these jurors probably are going to 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:08.680 heap that concern, that warning and try to keep keep 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:12.560 themselves secret. But I also wouldn't be surprised if one 0:08:12.640 --> 0:08:16.360 or two of them, you know, jump into the spotlight here. 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:20.000 You can imagine that that there would be some temptation 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.440 there to the spotlight. 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.680 So now the judge set a sentencing date already, and 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:30.080 it's sort of in line with what would normally happen 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.240 with someone convicted of a felony about a month from. 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.680 Now, right right, And a lot of people were asking me, 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.600 and I'm sure everyone was asking, you know, do you 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:42.320 think that he's going to get sentenced right away or 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.840 you know what. People were full on speculating that he 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.800 wouldn't be sentenced until after the election and things like that. 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:52.560 I never the judge never really gave a hint that 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:54.839 he was the kind of judge who would do that. 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.720 He really did try to treat Trump like any other 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.000 defendant to the best of his ability, given the special 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:02.920 circumstances with a secret service there and everything like that. 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.120 But you'll recall during the trial, Mershon, Judge Marshan threatens 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.800 to throw Trump behind bars during the trial for violating 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:16.120 that gag order preventing Trump from speaking publicly about the 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:20.439 jury or the witnesses. So after he violated that twice 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.199 or you know, through multiple violations, you know, found a 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.920 contempt twice, the judge said, I don't care, you know, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.600 I'm sorry about your secret service and everything else. I 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.640 know it would be a big problem for everyone in 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.160 a big inconvenience, but I will put you in jail 0:09:34.280 --> 0:09:37.320 if you do this one more time. So you know, 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.600 Trump didn't do it again, so the judges, I think 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:42.880 it doesn't surprise me that he would put a sentencing 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:44.640 date on the calendar like anyone else. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.480 And the district attorney at the press conference would not 0:09:48.600 --> 0:09:51.840 say whether or not the prosecutors are going to ask 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:53.960 for prison time or not. He said, read it in 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.240 our filings. We're going to do that the way we 0:09:56.280 --> 0:10:00.440 do everything else. Eric, I understand that the judge got 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.680 angry at Todd Blanche after the verdict came in when 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.719 he made a motion to throw out the verdict and 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.400 said something about Michael Cohen not being credible and how 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:16.240 the jury couldn't base their decision on Michael Cohen. 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:19.880 Right. Blanche had said something along the lines of there's 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:21.960 no way that the jury could have come to a 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.760 conclusion this quickly without relying improperly on Michael Cohen's testimony. 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:32.440 The judge just very quickly rejected that. I'm not sure 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:38.160 exactly what specifically about the request got the judge to 0:10:38.400 --> 0:10:41.560 Lady's voice a little bit but I mean, the judge 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:45.720 got impatient with Todd Blanch multiple times during the trial, 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:51.000 and you know, the the lawyers are are making arguments 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:55.000 with Trump sitting there, Trump is going to expect them 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.920 to say something, to do something on the fly, and 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:02.000 the way they're just you know, they're they're doing what 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.439 their client watched them to do. 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:06.280 Yeah, I think probably a lot of what we saw 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.160 at the trial was because Trump was there and the 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.720 lawyers had to do certain things, perhaps even bringing in 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:17.600 Robert Costello, who was a defense witness that sort of 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.440 backfired on the defense. 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:24.520 Yeah, that was I will have to try to get 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.640 an interview with Lance soon and maybe ask him if you'll, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.960 you know, say what he thinks about that that performance. 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:38.440 But Costello clearly caused a bit of of a scene, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.680 a major scene, and that was their only, really Trump's 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:50.040 only witness on the defense, So it did kind of backfire. Clearly, 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:56.760 the jury didn't take too seriously anything that he said, and. 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:58.920 It seemed like there were a couple of instances where 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:02.920 Judge Muschaw maybe lost his temper, but for the most part, 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:06.440 and considering the pressure that he was under, the constant 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:11.400 pressure and the constant criticism of Donald Trump outside the courtroom, 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:14.240 talking about the fact that the judge was biased just 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:18.280 about every day. I think he was pretty even keeled, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.840 wasn't he during the trial? From what I understand, Yeah. 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:26.720 One he I would say, the word unflappable comes to mind, 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:30.760 which is why when the judge really sort of lost 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.760 it with that Robert Costello, that witness really sort of 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:41.160 shocked everyone. But he has not, you know, he hasn't 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:43.720 raised his voice at Trump, which for example we saw 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:48.640 with Judge Lewis Kaplan and the Eugene Carroll trial. You know, 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.600 he just was very even tempered for the most part 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:57.400 and did not seem to take anything personally at least 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.960 not that we saw regarding the things that Trump was 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:02.600 saying about him every day right off bide the corner door. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.320 You know, he was just focused on protecting the safety 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:12.040 of the jurors and the witnesses. But clearly there will 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.840 be some people angry with the judge here as well. 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:15.839 We've already seen that. 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:19.760 You're listening to a special edition of The Bloomberg Lawn Show. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.960 A historic verdict. A New York jury found Donald Trump 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.439 guilty of thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:30.280 to conceal the hush money payment too adult film actress 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:35.640 Stormy Daniels to illegally influence the twenty sixteen election. Joining 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.280 us now is Joshua nef Talis, former federal prosecutor partner 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.880 at Palace. Josh, first of all, just what's your general 0:13:43.920 --> 0:13:47.120 reaction to the fact that this verdict came in all 0:13:47.200 --> 0:13:50.680 guilty counts and really within two days. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.679 So, I mean, it's obviously historic, but I don't think 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:59.080 it's necessarily surprising when a jury comes back this quickly. 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.000 When I when I saw the sort of the news 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.800 flash that there was a verdict, that's it's got to 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:09.000 be a guilty vertical that comes out quickly. So, I mean, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:11.200 kudos to the government from proving its case. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.880 And Josh, there was a lot of talk from the 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:20.160 very beginning about how, you know, this case was concocted 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.320 to be a felony when it should have been misdemeanors, 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:27.360 and how the government sort of made this into a felony. 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:29.960 I mean, was it a difficult case to prove? 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.640 I mean, it was actually a relatively simple case and 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:35.960 it was basically about lying on paper, right that's what 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.680 the case is about. The now, the motive and the 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.520 story required telling why he did it and why he 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.520 knew what he was doing was wrong. But I think it, 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:48.240 you know, overall, the government it was a strategically kind 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:53.160 of brilliant They took a very complicated fact pattern and 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:54.880 turn into a pretty simple felony story. 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:02.320 How much do you think the testimony of Michael Cohen, 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.440 I mean Michael Cohen. Before the case was brought, and 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:07.680 you know, there was a lot of talk about how 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.280 can you bring a case based on the testimony of 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:14.960 Michael Cohen? Explain how the prosecutors did that and still 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:15.640 got a conviction. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.440 So I was I was listening to your conversations, your 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.400 prior guests, and I think and a couple of things 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.320 occurred to me, which about Michael Cohen. The first is 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.600 the difference between state and federal law is if this 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.480 were a federal court, a jury could convict stolely based 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.920 on the testimony of Michael Cohen, which is which is 0:15:35.240 --> 0:15:39.560 It's an interesting difference. And I think the since you 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.840 had to have corroboration about Michael Cohen, my read of 0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:45.240 what the jury was asking for, you had asked the 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:48.440 prior death. You know, what were their various requests to readback? 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.120 I think they were looking for corroboration. You know what 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:54.840 happened at Trump Power, you know, did what Michael Cohen 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.200 said line up with the other witnesses? And I think 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.080 that's obviously why God packed Michael Collins a heavily in 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.880 his closing argument. So he was certainly a key witness. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:07.320 And I think, you know, my read is that the 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.600 jury credited him. You know, that's not to say Michael 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.240 Cohen is a perfect witness. He's definitely not. He's obviously lied, 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:17.120 he's admitted to it, and he's sort of got more 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:20.400 baggage than the average cooperating witness. But I think in 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.440 the end, obviously he delivered for the government. 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.640 You know, looking at the case, and as I was 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.880 talking with Eric Larson, the defense presented really one witness. 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:34.200 The first witness was about records, so they presented Bob Costello, 0:16:34.320 --> 0:16:37.640 which seemed to backfire on them. As a defense attorney, 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:40.640 what else do you think they could have done to 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:41.960 make their case stronger. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.160 You know, when the defense puts on a case, it's 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:49.000 very risky because there's one school of thought that says 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.240 they should have done nothing right, which is just get 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.200 up there and say the government didn't meet its burden. 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:57.160 But since they called effectively one substance of witness that imploded, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.560 then all of a sudden, they've taken on a burden 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.280 of trying to prove something. And every Jura was sitting 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.679 there wondering, Wait, that's all they had to show for it. 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:08.000 They didn't have to do anything, but they had one 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:08.520 with us. 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:08.879 And I. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:14.119 Think it's obviously very hard to second get people, but 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.760 you have to wonder whether in the end it was 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:17.359 really worth putting this guy on the stand. 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.680 In the closing arguments, the main thing was the attack 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:26.760 on Michael Cohen. Also that Stormy Daniels was lying. How 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:30.119 big a mistake was that for the defense to say 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:35.440 that Stormy Daniels was lying about the sexual incident with 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.120 Donald Trump when it seems like just about everybody accepts 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.879 that that's the truth. Was it a bad move to 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.840 start out that way in opening statements and say she's 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.920 lying about that, and then to close with that too. 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:50.720 I agree with you. I mean, I think like everybody 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.879 has to believe that that happened even before she testified, 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.720 and that must have been a client driven strategy, which 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:00.960 is to deny the fact that the encounter at all. 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.520 But once again, you take on that bird and the 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.560 jury sitting there wondering, you know, he's claiming, the President's 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.960 claiming that the stormy Daniels that you didn't happen. So 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.200 why would we believe the fact that he didn't pay 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.920 it off? In the end, it would have been a 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.440 little simpler to say, like, yeah, this may have happened. 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.000 That doesn't mean he had committed a crime. But adult 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.120 three isn't you know, is one thing, But that doesn't 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:25.879 mean he committed the crimes of the cutis charged. 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:28.800 What do you do when you take on a client 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:31.320 like Donald Trump, Because it seems like a lot of 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.960 the decisions that the defense made were made because they 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:38.520 were playing not only to the jury, but they were 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.719 also having to play to Donald Trump and what he wanted. 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.359 You know, I think that that Todd and Amiel and 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:48.040 Susan did a great job I mean with what was 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.960 The facts were what they were, and they did the 0:18:53.000 --> 0:18:56.000 best they could. My guess is that had he had 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:58.879 different lawyers, less skilled lawyers, it would have been a 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.439 circus and they were able to control him in a 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.119 way that that other lawyers could not have. That's not 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.760 to say that he was an easy client or that 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:09.760 the result they would have been different, But I think 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:12.480 that if there had been less strong lawyers on the 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.520 defense side, they would have probably done more of what 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:18.159 Donald Trump wanted, which would have resulted instead of more 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.400 of the outbursts that was talking about with the judge, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.240 where defense layer says one thing and the judge says, 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:25.040 sit down, not in my courtroom. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:28.840 Donald Trump has been before about three I think New 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.639 York judges so far. There was Judge and Goron in 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:37.120 the civil case, and then Judge Lewis Caplan in the 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:40.119 Egen Carroll case, and now Judge one Marshaan. I think 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.080 there's one other that I'm leaving out, but all those 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.440 judges were different. It seemed like Judge and Gourn was 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.240 a little looser, Judge Caplan was so strict, and then 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:54.200 you had Judge Mrshawn, who was somewhere in between. 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:56.360 I mean, they were all different postors. 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:56.560 Right. 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:02.120 A criminal case is different, there are different rules in 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.040 each one. But I think the pressure under each of 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.400 these judges was extreme, and that. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:08.200 You have. 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.040 Unbelievable press sort of attention. You have the president of 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.320 the United States, a former president, on trial. You want 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:18.880 to make sure that he gets a fair trial, and 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:22.640 you have a difficult client. Who's who's pushing the envelope. 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.480 I think that the judge did an excellent job. He 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:29.560 got this trial in. He didn't lose the jury, meaning 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:33.000 like the jurors were able to reach a verdict. There 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:36.040 obviously will be an appeal, but he was able to 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:39.280 contain what could have been a circus and made it, 0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:41.560 you know, I think a model of what everyone wanted, 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.159 which is the president was held to account, whether you know, 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:46.960 travel which way you wanted to come out. But a 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:49.520 trial occurred and a jury reached a verdict, which was 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:49.880 the goal. 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.359 There was a lot of controversy from the Trump side 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:57.240 about the gag order that the judge put on Trump 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.160 as far as witnesses in the case. Does that gag 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:03.159 order last through the sentencing? 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.800 No, I don't know. My guess is that at this 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.000 point the gag order falls away. I haven't robbed the 0:21:10.000 --> 0:21:13.400 gag order with that in mind, but really it really 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.879 was designed not to intimidate witnesses or to infect the journey. 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:21.159 Now that now that the trial's over, there's less of 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.840 the need for it. Obviously, he doesn't want to bate 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.239 the judge. I mean again, the judge is the one 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:28.800 of sentencing him, so he starts the mouse off on 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:32.239 Twitter or attack the judge. Then the person who's going 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.520 to be the ultimate decision maker on the sentence is 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:38.960 obviously going to sort of consciously or unconsciously take that 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:39.560 into account. 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:43.800 The judge has set a sentencing date for July eleventh, 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.520 which is pretty much along the lines of when you'd 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.720 set a sentencing date for anyone who is convicted of 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:52.879 a felony and the district attorney wouldn't say whether or 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:55.560 not they were going to seek prison time. I mean, 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.840 what are the chances that Donald Trump will be sentenced 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:02.280 to prison time? Remote? 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.600 Oh, I'm almost positive if he'll get prison time, you are, yeah, 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.760 The question is whether or when he will serve it. 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.880 I think the judge will impose a sentence I don't 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:17.040 know how long, but will impose prison time. There will 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:18.919 then be a series of appeals that will go on 0:22:19.000 --> 0:22:21.160 for some time, and I doubt he will be remanded 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:24.040 during that time period. But I think sort of the 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:28.040 principle that no one is above the law sort of 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.600 would dictate that you get a prison sentence. That doesn't 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.440 mean he's going to jail for the rest of his life. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.159 You know that the sentence will be what it is. 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.639 But I think that this judges may clearly prepared to 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.120 punish mister Trump. 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:41.800 Even though I mean, he's not above the law. But 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.440 it's his first time, you know, being convicted of anything. 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:49.280 He's seventy seven years old. Also take into account that 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.480 I'm not sure, and the judge mentioned this during the trial, 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:56.600 how the Secret Service would work out in prison. Don't 0:22:56.640 --> 0:23:00.280 you think that those things might interfere with a prison sentence? Mean, 0:23:00.359 --> 0:23:02.720 I'm just trying to convince you play devil's advocate. 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.639 I agree that it's a tough call. I think the 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:08.959 judge may clear and the Secret Service made clear that 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:11.520 they could deal with this as awkward as it would be. 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:14.000 That's thought to say, this is going to be a 0:23:14.000 --> 0:23:17.840 long sentence necessarily, but there is a certain symbolism to it, 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.760 which is, if you don't send someone to jail for 0:23:21.800 --> 0:23:23.680 a felony, what's the point of prosecuting. 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.320 I'll leave it at that and we'll find it, I guess. 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:30.240 On July eleven, Thanks so much. Josh that's former federal 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.159 prosecutor Joshua Neptalis. You're listening to a special edition of 0:23:34.160 --> 0:23:37.200 the Bloomberg Law Show. We're discussing a New York jury 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:41.080 this afternoon finding Donald Trump guilty of thirty four felony 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.080 counts of falsifying business records to conceal a hush money 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:49.040 payment to adult film actress Stormy Daniels in a scheme 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.840 to illegally influence the twenty sixteen election. Joining me now 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:56.440 is former federal Prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner McCarter and 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.960 English Bob. I'm asking everybody, what's your first reaction to 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:05.240 hearing that this jury came back with thirty four guilty counts. 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:10.160 Well, it was unquestionably a historic moment for this country. 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:12.800 The first former US president charged with a crime, and 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:17.200 now it convicted felon. I was not so much surprised 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:21.440 by the verdict, but I was surprised by the swiftness 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:24.520 by which this jury came to their conclusion. This was 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:28.440 a somewhat complicated case in terms of the jury charge. 0:24:28.560 --> 0:24:31.520 It was a layered crime in the sense that jurys 0:24:31.560 --> 0:24:34.479 had to find first that there was a falsification of 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.000 business records, and then that it was done to commit 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:41.240 some other crime, which turned this from a misdemeanor into 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:44.119 a felony. In this case, the other crime was to 0:24:44.160 --> 0:24:47.919 affect the election in some illegal way. And so, for 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:52.119 given all the complexities and the jury instructions and the evidence, 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:54.920 I think it was rather shocking that they came back 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:58.000 with a verdict unanimous on all thirty four counts in 0:24:58.080 --> 0:24:59.720 only a day and a half of deliberation. 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:04.440 Yeah, the jury instructions fifty pages. They were very complex, 0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:08.159 and unlike in federal courts, I mean, the jurors can't 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.000 take copies of the instructions back with them, So it 0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.880 is kind of amazing that they were able to figure 0:25:14.920 --> 0:25:17.960 it all out because it was complex. I mean, you 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:20.320 had two parts of it that had to be beyond 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.080 a reasonable doubt, but then you have the unlawful means, 0:25:23.119 --> 0:25:26.159 which could have been any of three different things. 0:25:26.720 --> 0:25:30.200 Yeah, and often in these cases, even when jurors may 0:25:30.240 --> 0:25:34.560 be inclined to convict, they methodically go through all of 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:38.720 the evidence, sort of weighing each count separately, looking at 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:42.320 all the evidence that is there presented by the prosecution, 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:45.879 considering the defense and it was surprising that in a 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:49.440 case with this level of complexity the verdict came back 0:25:49.520 --> 0:25:52.880 so quickly. What it does signal is that there really 0:25:53.080 --> 0:25:55.840 was no doubt in the minds of these jurors as 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:58.960 to the guilt of foreign President Trump. They obviously viewed 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:02.760 the evidence is overwhelming for the prosecution, and there was 0:26:02.800 --> 0:26:07.280 obviously little descent among jurors about the outcome of this case. 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:10.439 I mean, I'd love to talk to ajur about this, 0:26:10.560 --> 0:26:14.159 because I'm curious as to how much the closing arguments 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:19.239 helped them, because the prosecutor and they went long, and 0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.880 they went late, but he took them through just about 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:26.240 every piece of evidence that they needed to find guilt, 0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:30.640 and in a methodical kind of way, whereas the defense, 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:34.040 which is the way the defense usually is, is just 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:37.800 trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case. 0:26:39.119 --> 0:26:42.840 Yeah, that's right. I mean, the defense strategy was ultimately 0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:45.879 to try to raise reasonable doubt and to try to 0:26:45.960 --> 0:26:48.960 raise reasonable doubt in the mind of even one juror, 0:26:49.040 --> 0:26:52.600 because a hung jury where there is not unanimity on 0:26:52.640 --> 0:26:56.240 any one count of the indictment is exactually a win 0:26:56.440 --> 0:26:59.320 for the defense. I mean, the prosecutors can try the 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:03.520 case again, but the individual is not convicted. So here 0:27:03.800 --> 0:27:07.040 I agree with you. I think the prosecution did a 0:27:07.119 --> 0:27:10.000 very good job. They took an awful long time, but 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:12.000 I think it was worth the time they put in 0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:15.240 there because they did take these jurors through every step 0:27:15.280 --> 0:27:19.440 of this case witnessed by witness in the New York 0:27:19.480 --> 0:27:22.800 state courts. Unlike in federal court, where prosecutors go first 0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:25.480 and then the defense goes and then prosecutors get a rebuttal, 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:28.600 in New York state court, the defense goes first and 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:32.280 then prosecutors have the last word. So the closing statements 0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:35.440 here for prosecutors, there was really a combination of rebuttal 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:38.520 of what the defense presented and also presenting their own 0:27:38.520 --> 0:27:41.400 closing arguments. And that's probably why it took so long. 0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:45.199 But it was very thorough and apparently very effective in 0:27:45.280 --> 0:27:48.320 terms of convincing these jurors that this was really an 0:27:48.320 --> 0:27:49.200 opening shutcase. 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:54.280 This really presented a unique test of the legal system 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:57.359 because Trump was a former president. You have that and 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:03.000 his relentless attacks verbal attack on the case. The judge 0:28:03.520 --> 0:28:07.200 the DA describe how you know if you're the prosecutor 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.440 in the case or you're the judge in this case, 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.880 how that adds to your sort of difficulty or I'm 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:14.960 gonna say adjita. 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:19.240 Yeah, Well, certainly there have been other high profile criminal 0:28:19.280 --> 0:28:23.600 prosecutions OJ Simpson. You know, lots of others that were 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:27.000 very high profile, but we've never really seen one where 0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:30.720 the defendant had the kind of platform that former President 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:34.080 Trump has every day to step outside of that courtroom 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:38.280 and to reach millions of Americans commenting on the case, 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:42.400 commenting on the strength of the evidence, commenting on the witnesses, 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:46.560 the judge, the prosecutors, challenging them all along the way, 0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.520 and that's something the prosecutors, as you say, do not 0:28:49.680 --> 0:28:53.880 typically face. The question though, ultimately is did that make 0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:56.400 its way to the jury in any way? Did that 0:28:56.480 --> 0:28:59.200 have any impact on any of the witnesses? And I 0:28:59.200 --> 0:29:01.719 guess we can conclud that it did not because of 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:04.720 the swiftness with which this verdict was returned. 0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:09.680 Jurors are always told, you know, you can't look at news, 0:29:09.800 --> 0:29:13.640 you can't do this, you can't do that, and jurors 0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.640 often don't listen to those You find out later that 0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:20.080 they don't listen to all the different admonitions that the 0:29:20.200 --> 0:29:23.360 judge gives them. In this case. I mean, it would 0:29:23.400 --> 0:29:26.640 have been hard for them to avoid hearing about over 0:29:26.760 --> 0:29:30.200 five weeks to avoid hearing things about the trial, don't 0:29:30.240 --> 0:29:30.600 you think? 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:33.920 I agree with that? And I think even leading up 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:38.360 to the trial, before these twelve individuals were even sitting 0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:41.160 on this jury, there was obviously an enormous amount of 0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:44.280 publicity about this trial, and there were statements made by 0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:47.640 forming and former President Trump about the case, even though 0:29:47.680 --> 0:29:49.800 he was admonished by the judge, and there were gag 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.000 orders in place, But there was an awful lot that 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:55.040 was out there that they no doubt were exposed to, 0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:58.760 and yet they were instructed to put all of that 0:29:58.880 --> 0:30:01.480 aside and to make it decision based solely upon the 0:30:01.520 --> 0:30:05.120 evidence that was presented to them during the trial by 0:30:05.160 --> 0:30:08.240 the defense, by the prosecutor, and followed the instructions of 0:30:08.280 --> 0:30:11.600 the judge as to the law. And ultimately that's what 0:30:11.680 --> 0:30:14.480 they appear to do here. There's no evidence that they 0:30:14.920 --> 0:30:18.720 listen to information outside the jury room. If that comes 0:30:18.720 --> 0:30:21.680 to light, that creates certainly an issue for the defense 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:24.520 to take up on appeal, if not sooner. But at 0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:27.840 this point it appears that jurors did what they were 0:30:27.840 --> 0:30:30.360 supposed to do. They followed the rules and they did 0:30:30.400 --> 0:30:34.400 their jobs, and they ultimately found that there was overwhelming 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:36.200 evidence of guilt in this case. 0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:39.880 So the system worked. Yet we're going to hear over 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:43.840 and over from Trump that the system didn't work. What 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:47.240 do you think about appellate issues. I assume one is 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:49.320 going to be the change of venue, because today, when 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:52.400 he got out of the court, he started talking about 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:55.000 the fact that the judge denied a change of venue. 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:57.640 Oh yeah, Well, there's a host of issues that I 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.960 think we'll see raised on appeal. Some of them perhaps 0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:04.920 have more merits than others. But there was that motion 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.800 for a change of venue. As you say, that was 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:13.600 predicated on the idea that Manhattan voted overwhelmingly for President 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:16.360 Biden didn't vote for President Trump. I don't think that's 0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:19.920 really a fruitful argument. I don't think you can show 0:31:20.000 --> 0:31:23.520 that the jury pool was infected or was in any 0:31:23.520 --> 0:31:26.560 way by it simply because you didn't vote for somebody 0:31:26.560 --> 0:31:29.120 for president. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have 0:31:29.160 --> 0:31:31.480 an open mind in terms of how you view them 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:34.600 in a criminal case. But they're going to raise that issue, 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:37.000 and they're going to point out that there was so 0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:39.880 much pre trial publicity here, but again, that would be 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:42.560 the case pretty much anywhere in the United States, no 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:45.960 matter where you went. And if you think about it logically, also, 0:31:46.320 --> 0:31:48.800 if you moved it out of Manhattan to an area 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:51.520 that another part of the country, you know that area 0:31:51.640 --> 0:31:54.080 might have voted for former President Trump, then you sort 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:56.640 of have the opposite situation. And so I was not 0:31:56.760 --> 0:31:59.400 surprising to me at all that the judge denied that motion. 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.640 There are other issues, certainly the fact that this is 0:32:02.840 --> 0:32:06.600 a unique and somewhat novel application of the law. The 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:10.120 way that Alvin Bragg charged this case, it had really 0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:13.440 never been done before. There's no appellate rulings on the 0:32:13.480 --> 0:32:18.240 way he turned the misdemeanors into felonies here by relying 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:21.840 on an allegation that the cover up was really the 0:32:21.960 --> 0:32:24.960 essence of this crime. In other words, false documents were created. 0:32:25.000 --> 0:32:28.120 That's the business record crime, that's the misdemeanor. But what 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:30.680 turns into a felony is that it was done for 0:32:30.720 --> 0:32:33.880 the purpose of committing another crime, and that is to 0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:36.719 influence the election. There's not a lot of case law 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:39.240 on that, and I think we can expect the defense 0:32:39.280 --> 0:32:41.560 to raise that as a major issue on their. 0:32:41.400 --> 0:32:45.800 Appeal, Bob, we discussed when the jury was selected the 0:32:45.800 --> 0:32:48.880 fact that, surprise, surprise, there was not only one, but 0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:52.800 two jurors who were lawyers. Plus you had I think 0:32:52.880 --> 0:32:56.800 three MBA's and someone were a doctorate. This was a 0:32:56.840 --> 0:32:59.880 really smart jury advantage prosecution. 0:33:01.000 --> 0:33:02.840 Well, that was to me always sort of the open 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.200 question as a lawyer and as a prosecutor, even as 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:09.480 a defense lawyer, you really don't want a lawyer sitting 0:33:09.520 --> 0:33:12.120 on your jury, let alone two of them, because they 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:14.960 do have the ability to sort of overwhelm the rest 0:33:15.000 --> 0:33:17.640 of the jurors. Because jurors will defer to them, you 0:33:17.640 --> 0:33:20.480 don't really know what their views are. You really want 0:33:20.520 --> 0:33:22.440 it to be a level playing field where everybody has 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.959 the same voice. But in this case, both the defense 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.080 and the prosecutors were willing to have these two jurors 0:33:28.280 --> 0:33:31.400 sit on this jury, and at the end of the day, 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:35.920 they both I guess decided that an educated jury, one 0:33:36.040 --> 0:33:39.440 that paid close attention to all of the details, somebody 0:33:39.440 --> 0:33:41.440 that was steeped in the law. Even though neither of 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:45.040 these lawyers were criminal lawyers, but they were lawyers. They 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:47.680 understood the way the law worked, and I guess both 0:33:47.720 --> 0:33:50.280 prosecutors and the defense thought that that might be an 0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:51.760 advantage to their side. 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:54.760 Is there anything you think the defense could have done 0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:59.120 to change this? The evidence was overwhelming. 0:34:00.520 --> 0:34:02.880 I think it was a very tough case for the defense. 0:34:03.200 --> 0:34:05.880 They did a pretty good job of beating up on 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:08.960 Michael Cone. They showed that he had lied before, that 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:11.040 he had lied repeatedly. They showed that he had a 0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:15.160 financial motive in order to provide this testimony. They showed 0:34:15.160 --> 0:34:18.680 that he had a personal vendetta against former President Trump. 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:21.879 SOHO really can't score any more points than they did 0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:24.120 with Michael Cohne. But at the end of the day, 0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:28.040 prosecutors did a good job of bolstering and corroborating his 0:34:28.160 --> 0:34:31.799 testimony with other evidence. And one of the things prosecutors did, 0:34:31.800 --> 0:34:35.640 I think very effectively is that they relied on witnesses 0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:39.200 who were clearly still in the Trump camp. People who 0:34:39.280 --> 0:34:42.560 worked for former President Trump. May not have been still 0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.480 close to him, like Hope Hicks, but somebody who was 0:34:45.520 --> 0:34:48.000 still loyal to him. And yet they were able to 0:34:48.040 --> 0:34:52.280 elicit testimony that was damaging to the defense and helpful 0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:56.400 for prosecutors from witnesses who had no bias against former 0:34:56.440 --> 0:34:59.879 President Trump whatsoever. That was compelling testimony, and I think 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:03.279 sat up and paid attention when those witnesses testified. 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:06.319 You're listening to a special edition of the Bloomberg Law 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:11.040 Show as we cover the historic verdict former President Donald 0:35:11.080 --> 0:35:16.080 Trump guilty of thirty four felonies. So, Bob, I just 0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:19.080 talked to Joshua and Neftalis, who I'm sure you're familiar with. 0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:22.480 He said he thinks that Donald Trump is going to 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.399 be sentenced to prison. What's your take on that? 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.879 Well, obviously that is now the big question now that 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.799 the conviction has come in and all eyes turned to 0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:35.640 the Jugs here for sentencing. Typically, in a case like this, 0:35:35.760 --> 0:35:38.200 you might not expect a jail sentence, but this is 0:35:38.239 --> 0:35:40.960 not a typical case as a case that is obviously 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:45.839 a very high profile. It was enormously covered by the Bandia. 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:49.440 There was enormous attention he really throughout the world, and 0:35:49.480 --> 0:35:52.040 I think the jug is going to be hard pressed 0:35:52.400 --> 0:35:55.800 to only sentence former President Trump to probation in this case. 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.680 So I do think there will be some type of 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:01.760 jail sentence here, although I think it will be minimal, 0:36:02.160 --> 0:36:06.400 more symbolic than really punitive because of the circumstance of 0:36:06.440 --> 0:36:09.440 a former president, I'm putting him in jail. I also 0:36:09.480 --> 0:36:13.040 think it's likely that the judge will say that sentence 0:36:13.280 --> 0:36:16.480 of incarceration if he in fact imposes that, to allow 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.000 the appeal to go forward, so at the time of 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:21.600 the election, we won't have a situation where former President 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:25.600 Trump is actually sitting in jail. Typically in New York State, 0:36:25.840 --> 0:36:28.480 the sentence comes about a month after the conviction, and 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:32.239 if there's jail imposed, usually that begins almost immediately. But 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:35.880 the judge does have the discretion to allow the defendant 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.279 to remain on bail pending appeal, which I think is 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:41.200 likely the scenario we'll see here and. 0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:45.480 Just explain that this is a state conviction. So what 0:36:45.560 --> 0:36:48.560 that means if Donald Trump becomes president. 0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:52.239 Sure, So of all the cases that are out there, 0:36:52.640 --> 0:36:54.600 and there are several, as you know, there are a 0:36:54.719 --> 0:36:58.400 number of federal prosecutions pending, one in the District of 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:01.680 Columbia involving January sixth, there's the document destruction case down 0:37:01.719 --> 0:37:05.880 in Florida. Those are federal cases that ultimately a president 0:37:05.920 --> 0:37:09.399 can pardon somebody who's convicted of a federal crime. Whether 0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:13.440 a president can pardon himself is untested, but certainly something 0:37:13.480 --> 0:37:16.080 that former President Trump could do if he were to 0:37:16.120 --> 0:37:19.200 be elected president again. But state crimes such as the 0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:23.120 one in Atlanta and this one, that a president cannot 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:27.360 pardon themselves, So he has no control whatsoever in terms 0:37:27.400 --> 0:37:31.360 of removing this conviction, of overturning it simply because he 0:37:31.400 --> 0:37:34.680 becomes president. The only way to overturn this conviction will 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:37.120 be on appeal, and they'll have to convince the Court 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.759 of Appeals that there was some type of reversible error 0:37:39.760 --> 0:37:42.400 that was committed here to either throw the case out 0:37:42.680 --> 0:37:44.879 or send it back for a retrial if they're able 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:47.239 to convince the Court of Appeals that those types of 0:37:47.360 --> 0:37:48.200 errors occur here. 0:37:49.400 --> 0:37:55.319 Is this a vindication for Alvin Bragg and all the 0:37:55.760 --> 0:37:58.480 abuse he took, at least in the media and from 0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:02.239 Republicans about bringing this case, You know, a case that 0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:05.880 was based on misdemeanors and then he bumped it up, 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:09.680 as you explained before, to felonies. And you know, at 0:38:09.680 --> 0:38:11.719 the press conference, I remember when he brought this, they 0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:14.160 kept asking him over and over and over what's the 0:38:14.280 --> 0:38:17.920 underlying crime? And he didn't say, And we didn't learn 0:38:18.000 --> 0:38:21.600 until we saw the jury instructions really well. 0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:24.000 He did keep that very close to the vest. But 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:27.080 I think they did a good job of trying to 0:38:27.120 --> 0:38:31.040 convince durreors that this was not a case about record keeping. 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:33.719 It was a case about election interference. And you heard 0:38:33.760 --> 0:38:38.919 prosecutors actually say during closing arguments that this crime might 0:38:39.080 --> 0:38:43.240 have might have because they could not simply say categorically 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:45.520 what the outcome would have been, but they said that 0:38:45.600 --> 0:38:48.360 it might have actually affected the outcome of the election. 0:38:48.440 --> 0:38:51.840 In other words, if the Stormy Daniels story had broken 0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:55.400 just days before the election, after the Access Hollywood tapes 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:58.520 and everything going on there, could it have affected the outcome? 0:38:58.600 --> 0:39:00.600 Could the outcome of the president so the election had 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:03.400 been different. That was their theme, because they were trying 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:06.400 to convince jurors that this was a really important case. 0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:10.360 This was not simply a bookkeeping case, a clerical error 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:17.040 simply calling something a legal engagement letter, a payment of 0:39:17.040 --> 0:39:20.319 a legal retainer when it was really something else. They 0:39:20.400 --> 0:39:23.200 wanted to show the real significance here, and that's why 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:26.080 they spent so much time talking about what was going 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:29.920 on in the Trump campaign, the impact of that Access 0:39:29.960 --> 0:39:33.640 Hollywood tape where he was recorded making comments about grabbing 0:39:33.640 --> 0:39:36.239 women and the free fall that the campaign was in 0:39:36.320 --> 0:39:39.120 at that time, and how significant it would have been 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:41.719 if this story had come out. So they did a 0:39:41.800 --> 0:39:44.759 very good job of selling that story to jurors and 0:39:44.800 --> 0:39:47.360 convincing them that this was really an important case. 0:39:48.000 --> 0:39:52.840 And Alvin Bragg played this much differently from what the 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:57.240 New York Attorney General, Letitia James did in the case 0:39:57.280 --> 0:40:01.640 where New York was recovering money from the Trump organization. 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:06.239 So she would come out every day almost in response 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.840 to Trump's statements on the on the courthouse steps. She 0:40:09.840 --> 0:40:13.280 would make statements on the courthouse steps. But Bragg didn't 0:40:13.280 --> 0:40:16.840 make any statements at all. He was in the courtroom 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:20.560 a few times, but nothing to the press. And then 0:40:20.920 --> 0:40:24.200 tonight it was a very low key kind of press 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:27.520 conference and he didn't answer the questions that people were 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:30.680 firing at him about whether they were going to see 0:40:30.760 --> 0:40:34.239 jail time, et cetera. Is that the difference between a 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:38.000 criminal and a civil case or is that just different personalities. 0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:41.320 I think that's really just a question of different styles. 0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:46.320 And you're absolutely right that the Manhattan DA was incredibly understated. 0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:50.120 At the press conference after the conviction, he almost tried 0:40:50.160 --> 0:40:52.200 to make it sound like this was just another day 0:40:52.200 --> 0:40:54.600 in the office. While this was an important case, he 0:40:54.719 --> 0:40:58.120 cited a couple other important cases his office had recently handled, 0:40:58.400 --> 0:41:01.120 and he was really trying to convey that this case 0:41:01.239 --> 0:41:04.080 was nothing special in terms of how it was handled 0:41:04.080 --> 0:41:06.680 by this office. It was straight down the middle. The 0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:09.440 fact that it was a former president, that it was historic, 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:13.200 none of that ultimately affected how the case was prosecuted, 0:41:13.400 --> 0:41:16.520 how the charges were brought, and how it was ultimately handled. 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:19.920 And I think that was an effective strategy. The prosecutors 0:41:20.160 --> 0:41:23.600 and the Manhattan DA himself let them let all of 0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:26.799 their talking take place in the courtroom and did not 0:41:27.000 --> 0:41:30.520 engage in any of the theatrics and the hyperbole that 0:41:30.600 --> 0:41:33.240 we saw from former President Trump. And as you say, 0:41:33.680 --> 0:41:36.640 the Attorney General Letitia James in the civil case, so 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:40.960 he really tried to downplay the circus atmosphere and focused 0:41:41.040 --> 0:41:43.840 the public on what was going on inside the courtroom, 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:46.239 which ultimately I think was an effective strategy. 0:41:46.360 --> 0:41:49.040 Thanks so much, Bob, as always a pleasure having you on. 0:41:49.480 --> 0:41:54.160 That's former federal prosecutor Robert Mints of McCarter and English. Well, 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:58.000 we're going to continue with our coverage of the Donald 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:01.719 Trump verdict. We are covering a jury verdict late this 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:06.400 afternoon which found Donald Trump guilty of thirty four felony counts. 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:09.360 Joining us now is someone who is in the courtroom 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:14.320 for the entire trial, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal reporter. So, pat, 0:42:14.560 --> 0:42:16.680 did you think it would happen so fast? I mean, 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:19.239 we've talked almost every day about this case, and it 0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:21.160 seemed like a verdict was far away. 0:42:21.680 --> 0:42:24.440 Well, you know, from the way the defense was talking. 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:28.319 They delivered closing arguments, and I thought it was really 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:33.000 interesting yesterday that the jury had asked for testimony between 0:42:33.120 --> 0:42:37.080 David Pecker and Michael Cohen, and the defense lawyer Todd 0:42:37.120 --> 0:42:40.920 Blanchett argued in closing to the jury that Cowen had 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:45.480 completely contradicted Pecker. But if you let actually listen to 0:42:45.520 --> 0:42:48.760 the readback which of the testimony we heard this morning, 0:42:49.160 --> 0:42:52.080 it became really clear that he didn't at all. It 0:42:52.160 --> 0:42:56.120 actually that they had corroborated each other, it seemed. Then 0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:58.719 the jury got quiet for quite some time, and then 0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:04.400 this app afternoon suddenly half of the courtroom lost their internet, 0:43:05.040 --> 0:43:08.279 So when the verdict was being announced, half of us 0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:11.600 did not have any ability to cover it because it 0:43:11.680 --> 0:43:15.080 went down. Whether it was jammed or it was an accident, 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:18.759 I don't know, but it was quite heart stopping. But 0:43:18.840 --> 0:43:21.120 it gave me the ability to really stop and look 0:43:21.160 --> 0:43:24.799 at everybody and to hear that first count guilty, and 0:43:24.840 --> 0:43:30.560 then here for four straight minutes, thirty four counts of guilty, guilty, guilty, 0:43:30.719 --> 0:43:34.920 guilty being uttered. It was just unbelievable, like a wave. 0:43:35.120 --> 0:43:39.520 And then we heard cheers from outside the courthouse. Were 0:43:39.600 --> 0:43:42.160 on the fifteenth floor, but it seemed that the word 0:43:42.239 --> 0:43:45.640 had gotten filtered out to news crews outside and there 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:48.040 were cheers from people out in the park that had 0:43:48.080 --> 0:43:50.880 gathered to hear it. So it was quite a historic moment. 0:43:51.800 --> 0:43:55.840 Did do you know did the jurors look at Donald 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:57.480 Trump when they were reading. 0:43:57.120 --> 0:44:00.480 That they they filed in and they did not make 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:02.759 eye contact with him what they walked in, which is 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:06.839 to me always a tip off. And then as they 0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:09.040 were looking most of them were looking down. But they 0:44:09.120 --> 0:44:11.080 pulled the jury and it was unanimous. 0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:14.759 Donald Trump heard this. It seemed to me like from 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:18.000 his statements outside the courthouse that he was sort of 0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.640 prepared for this. I mean the other day he said 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:23.320 that you know it would take mother Teresa to beat 0:44:23.360 --> 0:44:24.200 these charges. 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:29.000 Well, I mean I did speak to my colleague photographers. 0:44:29.040 --> 0:44:30.880 I mean we were locked in the courtroom. We're not 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:34.400 allowed to move if Trunk is moving for his security concerns. 0:44:34.640 --> 0:44:39.279 But my colleague photographers captured some astounding images of his 0:44:39.400 --> 0:44:44.720 trial team looking completely shattered and shocked, including Lena Haba, 0:44:44.800 --> 0:44:48.319 his lawyer, with her jaw dropping open, and some of 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:52.120 the court officers looked stricken. It was an amazing thing. 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:54.480 And they said that Trump seemed to be fumbling to 0:44:54.520 --> 0:44:56.880 try to figure out what to say. He as he 0:44:57.000 --> 0:45:01.239 walked out of the courtroom, he said, so sat stoneface 0:45:01.400 --> 0:45:05.000 as the verdict was announced and looked straight ahead, and 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:07.719 then he got up and he was it looked like 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:11.000 you know when his face was just fury. And then 0:45:11.080 --> 0:45:15.359 he turned around and he fist bumped his son, Eric Trump, 0:45:15.400 --> 0:45:17.759 who would see it right behind him. And then he 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:21.440 basically strode down the center aisle of the courtroom and 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:23.680 walked out to have to make his statement. 0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:24.839 But it was not the. 0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:28.400 Kind of forceful thing you typically expect from Donald Trump. No, 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:30.719 so you know, he might have been prepared that he 0:45:30.840 --> 0:45:32.920 was possibly expecting the guilty verdict. 0:45:33.200 --> 0:45:35.600 Yeah, it was very much similar to things that he's 0:45:35.600 --> 0:45:38.919 been saying, you know, basically every day, every other day. 0:45:39.400 --> 0:45:42.280 What about the prosecutors, were they smiling at least? 0:45:43.000 --> 0:45:46.839 Yes, there were huge grins from the prosecutors like Josh Steinlass, 0:45:46.840 --> 0:45:49.560 who spent five hours on Tuesday trying to convince the 0:45:49.640 --> 0:45:53.040 jury and going through all the massive evidence. He called 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:57.640 it a mountain of evidence. A Matthew Colangelo, who was 0:45:57.680 --> 0:46:02.319 a former federal prosecutor who had done a masterful job 0:46:02.400 --> 0:46:05.799 of openings. He had a huge grin. And Susan Hoffinger, 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:09.520 who came to joined Bragg's team as a criminal defense lawyer, 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:12.919 as a criminal defense lawyer, she came back as a prosecutor. 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:17.040 She had done an amazing cross examination of Robert Costello, 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:23.080 who was Trump's witness, and they all had huge grins 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:23.960 on their faces. 0:46:24.239 --> 0:46:27.320 You know better than anyone having covered this so long, 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:31.239 the sort of abuse that Alvin Bragg has taken for 0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:35.160 bringing this case and for having Michael Cohen as the 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:39.080 star witness. And yet right after he really didn't gloat 0:46:39.239 --> 0:46:44.120 or anything. He just was very very straightforward about the case. 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:48.800 Alvin Bragg has a reputation. I was listening to Rob Ninstre. 0:46:49.200 --> 0:46:52.240 He has a reputation of being a very circumspect person. 0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:56.680 He's not a dynamic speaker at all. And I think 0:46:56.760 --> 0:47:00.000 under the law and criminal cases are different from Tis James. 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:01.840 So she can go out and have a press conference, 0:47:01.840 --> 0:47:04.879 but under criminal law, prosecutors have to be much more 0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:07.239 careful of what they're saying on the courthouse steps, and 0:47:07.280 --> 0:47:09.680 they cannot basically try their case on the steps of 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:12.279 the courthouse. They have to limit their statements to what's 0:47:12.320 --> 0:47:14.840 going on in court. Alan Bragg is practitioner of that 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:18.200 to the NS degree. But he did seem very happy, 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:22.080 and he was basically saying that, well, they've had massive 0:47:22.200 --> 0:47:27.120 fights and battles to this reach this day, a jury 0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:31.160 has ultimately spoken, and now we've arrived at this trial, 0:47:31.200 --> 0:47:33.880 and ultimately this verdict is in the same manner that 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:36.719 any other case is brought in this courthouse. But even 0:47:36.760 --> 0:47:39.440 if it's historic, it was treated just the way the 0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:41.560 office is always handled white collar crime. 0:47:41.800 --> 0:47:45.479 He also didn't say whether or not the prosecutors would 0:47:45.480 --> 0:47:48.360 be seeking prison time for Donald Trump. Do you have 0:47:48.400 --> 0:47:51.040 any insight into that, Well. 0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:54.040 He can ask. Under the law, it's anywhere from one 0:47:54.080 --> 0:47:56.799 in a third to four years for each count. I 0:47:56.880 --> 0:47:59.840 understand it would not be added to stamps together and 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:02.800 you know, all of them linked together and add it 0:48:02.880 --> 0:48:06.320 up to you know, let's say seventy years in prison 0:48:06.400 --> 0:48:09.439 or whatever. It would be consecutive, so they would all 0:48:10.160 --> 0:48:14.360 be concurrent, so they would all merge together. Whether or 0:48:14.480 --> 0:48:19.200 not a first time offender who's Trump's age faces prison 0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:23.080 is another matter. I don't know what Judge Mershawn is 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.480 going to do. And Alvin Bragg wouldn't say what he's 0:48:25.480 --> 0:48:27.160 going to do, but he said he would limit his 0:48:27.239 --> 0:48:29.919 statements and comments about what he's going to do about 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:34.360 Donald Trump to the court and court filings. 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:37.840 Stay with US Patty. Joining us now is former federal 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:42.360 prosecutor Michael Zelden. Michael, I've asked everyone, because this is 0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:45.239 a question on a lot of people's minds, whether or 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:48.719 not you think Donald Trump will be sentenced to some 0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:49.680 time in prison. 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.040 I don't. I don't think you should. If you want 0:48:53.080 --> 0:48:56.680 to keep the system working according to the you know, 0:48:56.760 --> 0:49:01.160 sort of structure of it, a person with his past 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:04.239 record should be put on probation. Now, he is a 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:08.960 former political official, and sometimes it's important to make these 0:49:09.000 --> 0:49:13.000 politically exposed persons held a capable to a higher standard, 0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:15.719 and if the judge thinks that's appropriate, then I would 0:49:15.719 --> 0:49:21.080 think a period of house arrest could be important message 0:49:21.120 --> 0:49:24.680 to be sent to other public officials. But going to 0:49:25.040 --> 0:49:28.120 Rikers Island or some place like that, I be very surprised. 0:49:28.880 --> 0:49:35.279 Judge Murshawn maybe deserves an award for his ability to 0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:37.840 take this case through to the end and not lose 0:49:37.840 --> 0:49:40.400 his temper too many times. I mean, it was a 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:44.920 tough case to preside over. He encountered so many obstacles 0:49:45.480 --> 0:49:49.240 day after day that you wouldn't encounter in a normal trial. 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.200 Well, you encounter them in high publicity trials. We saw 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:59.080 that in the judge edo failure in the OJ Simpson case. 0:49:59.160 --> 0:50:01.799 I think we saw with a certain extent in the 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:06.920 judge ergo On trial for the Letitia James case. I 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:10.000 think both of those judges, on a sliding scale, didn't 0:50:10.000 --> 0:50:13.560 do as well as this judge. I think this judge 0:50:14.560 --> 0:50:20.160 handled himself professionally, did not take debate ever, protected the 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:26.440 judicial personnel and other family members of them appropriately, and 0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:30.799 I think he gave a sober recitation of what the 0:50:30.840 --> 0:50:33.080 criminal justice system should look like. 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:37.719 Pat tell Us about the judge's sort of performance here, 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:38.560 I'll say. 0:50:39.080 --> 0:50:42.880 The judge has been extremely careful and cautious. He's a 0:50:43.080 --> 0:50:46.640 very mild mannered guy. He never loses his temper. I 0:50:46.760 --> 0:50:49.040 made the joke to you June that most of us 0:50:49.040 --> 0:50:50.960 would love to have a husband like that, because he 0:50:51.120 --> 0:50:55.280 never loses his temper. He as and he has been challenged. 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:03.160 I think the magnumity of the important import of what 0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.520 he has to do in this case has always weighed 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:09.839 heavily on him, and he takes it extremely seriously. So 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:12.719 he's not a kind of guy like Judging Goren, who 0:51:12.800 --> 0:51:16.960 used to make jokes and be very jocular and make 0:51:17.360 --> 0:51:20.280 you know, goof arown. He is a just a very 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:24.240 serious person. So I mean, and he's been challenged by Trump, 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:27.120 has Alvin Bragg, and has that trial team. They've had 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:31.520 death threats so and Judge Mershawn's daughter was threatened. So 0:51:32.160 --> 0:51:34.160 and we all need to remember that Donald Trump had 0:51:34.160 --> 0:51:36.719 promised death and destruction if he got indicted, and that's 0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:39.759 what happened. So here we are a year later, and 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:44.120 everybody's had to deal with this historic case with a 0:51:44.320 --> 0:51:47.360 historic that doesn't act like most offidents. 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:50.799 Yeah, and Michael I mean, we didn't hear from the 0:51:50.880 --> 0:51:53.080 jurors so far. I'm not sure if we will hear 0:51:53.120 --> 0:51:56.759 from the jurors because of you know, the ways at 0:51:56.840 --> 0:52:00.400 least part of the country has reacted to Donald Trump 0:52:00.440 --> 0:52:02.400 being prosecuted. 0:52:03.600 --> 0:52:07.480 If I were a juror, I would be quiet. I 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:13.319 don't see any value to them individually in speaking forward. Now. 0:52:14.120 --> 0:52:16.520 The news networks, of course, are going to be doing 0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:19.360 everything and they can to get their first big scoop 0:52:19.480 --> 0:52:22.320 of the juror to talk about what happened in the 0:52:22.440 --> 0:52:25.319 jury room. But I think we'd be better off and 0:52:25.360 --> 0:52:28.320 they individually, we're better off if we just let. 0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:29.560 It be as it is now. 0:52:30.400 --> 0:52:32.680 Patty, what do you think book deals? I mean, there's 0:52:32.680 --> 0:52:34.799 a lot that a juror could do here. 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:39.120 It was stunning to be that prospective jurors walked out 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:41.880 of the courthouse after being dismissed and saying they were 0:52:41.920 --> 0:52:43.799 too frightened to be on a jury, and then they 0:52:43.880 --> 0:52:46.440 walked in front of the CE cameras and gave interviews 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:50.359 as always shocks me. I've also as a veteran court 0:52:50.400 --> 0:52:53.520 reporter and have covered hundreds of trials where the jurors 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:57.520 will say, oh, sorry, no interviews, including Glenne Maxwell's juror 0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:01.239 that later came forward and staid he would you know 0:53:01.320 --> 0:53:03.680 that he had cried when he left the courthouse. And 0:53:03.719 --> 0:53:06.279 I actually door stopped him as he walked out of 0:53:06.280 --> 0:53:09.240 the Manhattan Sedal Courthouse and said would you like to comment? 0:53:09.280 --> 0:53:11.680 And he basically ran away from me. So I'm always 0:53:11.719 --> 0:53:13.839 kind of surprised when I see people, but I guess 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:16.479 when they want to see get their fifteen minutes the same, 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.719 some people are very tempted. I personally kind of think 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.240 in this case, you know, I will look for every 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:27.200 angle to challenge this. So I kind of agree there 0:53:28.239 --> 0:53:31.319 with my cops that I don't know if it's such 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:34.759 a good idea, especially for someone like Donald Trump who 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:37.440 wants to and his followers. So I don't know they 0:53:37.920 --> 0:53:40.200 want to proceed as and. 0:53:40.120 --> 0:53:43.080 The judge spoke to the jurors after the verdict was 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:43.840 handed down. 0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:46.759 Patty yes, and he thanked them for their service, and 0:53:46.840 --> 0:53:49.720 he said things like, you know, this was an amazing 0:53:49.800 --> 0:53:53.399 job you guys did, and it was historic and what 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:57.279 you've done is you've paid all this attention and you 0:53:57.280 --> 0:53:58.000 know you've. 0:53:59.400 --> 0:53:59.840 It. 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:02.839 You know, he wanted to thank them personally, so he 0:54:02.880 --> 0:54:05.080 asked them. He said, I can't get into details of 0:54:05.120 --> 0:54:07.440 the case, but I also just want to thank you personally. 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.400 And you know, we also had other jurors reach verdicts 0:54:11.480 --> 0:54:15.440 on We had two other jurors juries reached verdicts on 0:54:15.560 --> 0:54:18.719 Donald Trump in New York City. We had two Manhattan 0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:21.319 federal juris in the E. G. And Carroll case, and 0:54:21.400 --> 0:54:24.680 they were both deemed anonymous by the federal judge in 0:54:24.680 --> 0:54:27.640 that case. So it kind of I don't know that's 0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:30.520 the practice in federal court. But you know, he said, 0:54:30.560 --> 0:54:33.440 you were engaged in a very stressful and difficult task, 0:54:33.520 --> 0:54:35.560 and I want you to know that I really admire 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:39.200 your dedication and hard work. You're free to discuss this 0:54:39.320 --> 0:54:42.000 case with anyone, and you're free to not discuss it. 0:54:42.160 --> 0:54:43.240 The choice is yours. 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:47.680 How long do you think before we see appellet papers here? 0:54:48.000 --> 0:54:50.239 I understand under New York state law. I talked to 0:54:50.280 --> 0:54:53.160 two criminal defense players, the veteran criminal defense layers in 0:54:53.200 --> 0:54:55.200 New York, and they said that under the law in 0:54:55.280 --> 0:54:59.840 New York, a defendant cannot appeal start their appeal until 0:55:00.040 --> 0:55:02.960 after their sentence because of technically, in this weird limbo 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:06.520 awaiting sentence. So Donald Trump has to wait to at 0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:08.759 least a lie to file those papers. That's not going 0:55:08.800 --> 0:55:11.040 to mean he's not going to try it, and his 0:55:11.160 --> 0:55:14.640 lawyers did. Today. After the verdict, Todd Blinch stood and 0:55:14.719 --> 0:55:18.560 asked for an acquittal, saying that Michael Cohene was completely unbelievable, 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:21.560 and the judge firmly rejected it. Now, going on to 0:55:21.600 --> 0:55:26.040 what Mershawn has said about prison, he has warned Trump 0:55:26.160 --> 0:55:29.040 that he has to he had to obey the gag 0:55:29.200 --> 0:55:32.319 order or else he might have to imprison him. And 0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:35.160 he called it the you know, basically it was like 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:38.440 a last resort that he didn't want to do for 0:55:38.480 --> 0:55:42.440 its pre trial whether or not he does it. He 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:46.719 said to the jury when the defense lawyer mentioned, don't 0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:49.880 send him to prison on this these charges, that was 0:55:49.920 --> 0:55:53.279 a call for a curative instruction. And the judge told 0:55:53.280 --> 0:55:57.280 the jury this verdict may not result in prison. 0:55:57.520 --> 0:55:59.680 We'll have to leave it there. That's the big question 0:55:59.800 --> 0:56:03.560 going going forward. Thank you both, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal 0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:08.080 reporter and Michael Zelden, former federal prosecutor. And that's it 0:56:08.120 --> 0:56:10.719 for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you 0:56:10.719 --> 0:56:13.200 can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:16.920 Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:22.160 and at www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law, 0:56:22.560 --> 0:56:25.120 and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:29.080 weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:30.840 and you're listening to Bloomberg