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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: For the first time a former president has been convicted

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Speaker 1: of felony crimes, a New York jury found Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: guilty of thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records

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Speaker 1: to conceal a hush money payment to adult film actress

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Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels in a scheme to illegally influence the twenty

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Speaker 1: sixteen election. After the verdict, Trump repeated his familiar complaints

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Speaker 1: about the case.

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Speaker 2: This was a disgrace. This was a rigged trial by

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Speaker 2: a conflicted judge who was corrupted. It's a rigged trial

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Speaker 2: and disgrace. They wouldn't give us a venue change. We

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Speaker 2: were at five or six percent in this district, in

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Speaker 2: this area. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial that the

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Speaker 2: real verdict is going to be the people.

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Speaker 1: Judge Wan Mreshawn will sentence Trump on July eleventh. That's

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Speaker 1: just days before the July fifteenth Republic and National Convention,

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Speaker 1: where the party is set to officially select Trump as

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Speaker 1: its presidential nominee for the November fifth election. Joining me

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Legal reporter Eric Larson, who covered the trial

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Speaker 1: from start to finish, Eric, what was the reaction Trump's

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Speaker 1: reaction in the courtroom when this verdict was read.

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Speaker 3: He did not give much reaction at all, other than

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Speaker 3: to have a very stern look on his face, sort

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Speaker 3: of a grimace. You know. You could tell from some

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Speaker 3: of his comments that he seemed to expect this verdict,

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Speaker 3: So he didn't seem to have an expression of surprise

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Speaker 3: or anything like that, but he did have a very

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Speaker 3: stern look on his face. When he eventually left the

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Speaker 3: courtroom with his entourage. He did not glance at the

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Speaker 3: many members of the price who were sitting in the courtroom,

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Speaker 3: as he has done so many times during this trial,

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Speaker 3: and then he went out to make his remarks. So

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Speaker 3: there wasn't much of a reaction at all. And actually

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Speaker 3: the judge said before the jury came out he did

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Speaker 3: not want to hear or see any reaction from anyone

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Speaker 3: in the courtroom, including trumped over with it be included

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Speaker 3: in that, So there really wasn't much reaction at all.

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Speaker 3: It was just the sound of everyone typing away on

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Speaker 3: their laptop and that was it.

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Speaker 1: It seemed as if the judge said the jury was

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Speaker 1: going to go home at four thirty. Then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden we heard a verdict. Was everyone shocked that

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Speaker 1: a verdict was coming in so fast?

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Speaker 3: I would say everyone was taken by surprise, specifically because

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Speaker 3: the judge did say he called everyone into the courtroom,

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Speaker 3: including the parties and their lawyers, all oppressed, had them seated,

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Speaker 3: and said it's four fifteen. Him going to be sending

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Speaker 3: the jury home. The end time was four thirty. There

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Speaker 3: was the option he would give the jury to stay

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Speaker 3: until six if they wanted, but it was unclear that

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Speaker 3: had ever been suggested to them. He just said he

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Speaker 3: was sending them home. So he stepped away and then

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Speaker 3: came back a few minutes later and he said, actually

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Speaker 3: have a note from the jury and they have a verdict.

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Speaker 3: So everyone clearly was surprised, their sort of gaps in

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Speaker 3: the courtroom, Everyone obviously was mostly pressed, was you know,

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Speaker 3: rushing to get the news out? And then the judge

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Speaker 3: said that the jury needed an extra thirty minutes to

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Speaker 3: fill out the verdict sheet, which, to be honest, made

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Speaker 3: me wonder if it wasn't a very complicated verdict sheet.

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Speaker 3: But everyone just waited and they eventually came out and

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Speaker 3: read out the verdict.

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Speaker 1: So, Eric, you sat through the trial, what do you

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Speaker 1: think was the strongest piece of evidence in the case.

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Speaker 3: You know, I have to say that the testimony of

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Speaker 3: the government star witness Michael Cohen had to have had

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Speaker 3: a huge effect on the jury, even though he was

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Speaker 3: part of the conspiracy, and the judge said that they

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Speaker 3: couldn't as a result of that, they couldn't find Trump

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Speaker 3: guilty based only on Michael Cohen's words, but had to

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Speaker 3: take it into context of all the other testimony and

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Speaker 3: all the other evidence, and which really did back up

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Speaker 3: a lot of what Michael Cohen said, and he has

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Speaker 3: the long history of twisting the truth that was all

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Speaker 3: brought out at the trial. The defense wanted to undermine

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Speaker 3: his credibility at every step, but when it came to

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Speaker 3: the words that he was saying about Trump and his

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Speaker 3: interactions with his former boss around the time when he

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Speaker 3: was a devoted Trump employee, you know, his fixer, his lawyer,

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Speaker 3: that the jury clearly accepted the things that he was

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Speaker 3: saying about these interactions with these you know, with the

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Speaker 3: hush money payment, the scheme that was hatched to Trump

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Speaker 3: Tower in twenty fifteen, with the publisher of the National inquirer.

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Speaker 3: I know all of these details that he gave about

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Speaker 3: the efforts to suppress negative stories about his Trump's conduct

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Speaker 3: with women before the twenty sixteen election, it must have

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Speaker 3: rang true with the jury and they accepted it.

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Speaker 1: So now when we look back, I'll put you on

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Speaker 1: the spot for a second. It seemed to me the

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Speaker 1: jury was starting from you know, ground zero when they

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Speaker 1: asked the judge to start with reading readbacks of David Pecker.

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Speaker 1: Then they seemed to go fast forward. So I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you think they were looking at there?

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Speaker 3: Well, my theory, which I guess as will never know,

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Speaker 3: but my theory was that all of the counts, thirty

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Speaker 3: four counts, they were all very similar and they all

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Speaker 3: related to the same documents types of documents. But really

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Speaker 3: they all hinged on one thing. Was there a conspiracy

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Speaker 3: to you know, pay hush money to suppress these stories,

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Speaker 3: because as we know, the money that was paid ultimately

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Speaker 3: violated election law. They were there were criminal payments that

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Speaker 3: supported presidential campaign by benefiting a campaign, and then of

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Speaker 3: course the documents were falsified to sort of cover that trail.

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Speaker 3: So they really, it seemed like they wanted to know,

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Speaker 3: was this conspiracy real, How was it hatched? How did

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Speaker 3: they operate under the conspiracy? So they wanted to hear

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Speaker 3: Peckers and Cohen's testimony about that twenty five minute meeting

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Speaker 3: at Trump Tower in August twenty fifteen. They wanted to

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Speaker 3: hear again exactly what they said about it and what

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Speaker 3: their understandings were about it. And then they wanted to

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Speaker 3: hear what Pecker said about, you know, about paying Karen McDougal,

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Speaker 3: the former Playboy model, and also Pecker telling Trump that

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Speaker 3: he should pay to get the Stormy Daniel's story out

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Speaker 3: of the press if he could could do that. And

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Speaker 3: so it seemed like they wanted to see how Pecker

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Speaker 3: operated under this disagreement, how he thought it worked. So

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Speaker 3: if they went back to the to the deliberation room

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Speaker 3: after hearing all that again and said, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: this conspiracy is real, and so everything else just sort

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Speaker 3: of fell into place. You know, that's that's my theory. Well,

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Speaker 3: we may never know that's true.

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Speaker 1: I want to just pick up on that for a second.

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Speaker 1: The jury was anonymous a lot of times. After a

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Speaker 1: jury verdict comes in, you know, you'll as a reporter,

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Speaker 1: you'll see the jurors come out, and you can grab

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Speaker 1: them and ask them questions about, you know, how'd you

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Speaker 1: come to this decision, et cetera. These jurors, what happened?

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Speaker 1: They just disappeared after the verdict.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what they did after their verdict because

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Speaker 3: I was stuck in the courtroom as they were. I

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Speaker 3: think all escorted out. But I can tell you that

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Speaker 3: before the judge dismissed the jury, he did tell them

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Speaker 3: that the strict rules that they've been operating on the

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Speaker 3: preventing them from speaking to the press or anyone else

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Speaker 3: about the trial, are officially lifted, and so he said

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Speaker 3: that they were free to talk to people if they

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Speaker 3: want to. I think it was made crystal clearer to

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Speaker 3: this jury as a result of the anonymous nature of it.

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Speaker 3: How unusual that that is, that it was all to

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Speaker 3: protect their safety. So I think it's a safe guest

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Speaker 3: that a lot of these jurors probably are going to

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Speaker 3: heap that concern, that warning and try to keep keep

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Speaker 3: themselves secret. But I also wouldn't be surprised if one

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Speaker 3: or two of them, you know, jump into the spotlight here.

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Speaker 3: You can imagine that that there would be some temptation

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Speaker 3: there to the spotlight.

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Speaker 1: So now the judge set a sentencing date already, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of in line with what would normally happen

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Speaker 1: with someone convicted of a felony about a month from.

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Speaker 3: Now, right right, And a lot of people were asking me,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure everyone was asking, you know, do you

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Speaker 3: think that he's going to get sentenced right away or

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Speaker 3: you know what. People were full on speculating that he

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Speaker 3: wouldn't be sentenced until after the election and things like that.

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Speaker 3: I never the judge never really gave a hint that

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Speaker 3: he was the kind of judge who would do that.

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Speaker 3: He really did try to treat Trump like any other

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Speaker 3: defendant to the best of his ability, given the special

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Speaker 3: circumstances with a secret service there and everything like that.

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Speaker 3: But you'll recall during the trial, Mershon, Judge Marshan threatens

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Speaker 3: to throw Trump behind bars during the trial for violating

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Speaker 3: that gag order preventing Trump from speaking publicly about the

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Speaker 3: jury or the witnesses. So after he violated that twice

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Speaker 3: or you know, through multiple violations, you know, found a

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Speaker 3: contempt twice, the judge said, I don't care, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry about your secret service and everything else. I

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Speaker 3: know it would be a big problem for everyone in

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Speaker 3: a big inconvenience, but I will put you in jail

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Speaker 3: if you do this one more time. So you know,

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Speaker 3: Trump didn't do it again, so the judges, I think

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Speaker 3: it doesn't surprise me that he would put a sentencing

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Speaker 3: date on the calendar like anyone else.

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Speaker 1: And the district attorney at the press conference would not

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Speaker 1: say whether or not the prosecutors are going to ask

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Speaker 1: for prison time or not. He said, read it in

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Speaker 1: our filings. We're going to do that the way we

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Speaker 1: do everything else. Eric, I understand that the judge got

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Speaker 1: angry at Todd Blanche after the verdict came in when

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Speaker 1: he made a motion to throw out the verdict and

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Speaker 1: said something about Michael Cohen not being credible and how

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Speaker 1: the jury couldn't base their decision on Michael Cohen.

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Speaker 3: Right. Blanche had said something along the lines of there's

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Speaker 3: no way that the jury could have come to a

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Speaker 3: conclusion this quickly without relying improperly on Michael Cohen's testimony.

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Speaker 3: The judge just very quickly rejected that. I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: exactly what specifically about the request got the judge to

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Speaker 3: Lady's voice a little bit but I mean, the judge

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Speaker 3: got impatient with Todd Blanch multiple times during the trial,

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Speaker 3: and you know, the the lawyers are are making arguments

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Speaker 3: with Trump sitting there, Trump is going to expect them

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Speaker 3: to say something, to do something on the fly, and

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Speaker 3: the way they're just you know, they're they're doing what

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Speaker 3: their client watched them to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think probably a lot of what we saw

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Speaker 1: at the trial was because Trump was there and the

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Speaker 1: lawyers had to do certain things, perhaps even bringing in

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Speaker 1: Robert Costello, who was a defense witness that sort of

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Speaker 1: backfired on the defense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was I will have to try to get

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Speaker 3: an interview with Lance soon and maybe ask him if you'll,

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Speaker 3: you know, say what he thinks about that that performance.

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Speaker 3: But Costello clearly caused a bit of of a scene,

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Speaker 3: a major scene, and that was their only, really Trump's

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Speaker 3: only witness on the defense, So it did kind of backfire. Clearly,

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Speaker 3: the jury didn't take too seriously anything that he said, and.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like there were a couple of instances where

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Speaker 1: Judge Muschaw maybe lost his temper, but for the most part,

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Speaker 1: and considering the pressure that he was under, the constant

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Speaker 1: pressure and the constant criticism of Donald Trump outside the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: talking about the fact that the judge was biased just

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Speaker 1: about every day. I think he was pretty even keeled,

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Speaker 1: wasn't he during the trial? From what I understand, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One he I would say, the word unflappable comes to mind,

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Speaker 3: which is why when the judge really sort of lost

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Speaker 3: it with that Robert Costello, that witness really sort of

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Speaker 3: shocked everyone. But he has not, you know, he hasn't

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Speaker 3: raised his voice at Trump, which for example we saw

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Speaker 3: with Judge Lewis Kaplan and the Eugene Carroll trial. You know,

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Speaker 3: he just was very even tempered for the most part

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Speaker 3: and did not seem to take anything personally at least

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Speaker 3: not that we saw regarding the things that Trump was

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Speaker 3: saying about him every day right off bide the corner door.

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Speaker 3: You know, he was just focused on protecting the safety

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Speaker 3: of the jurors and the witnesses. But clearly there will

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Speaker 3: be some people angry with the judge here as well.

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Speaker 3: We've already seen that.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to a special edition of The Bloomberg Lawn Show.

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Speaker 1: A historic verdict. A New York jury found Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: guilty of thirty four felony counts of falsifying business records

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Speaker 1: to conceal the hush money payment too adult film actress

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Speaker 1: Stormy Daniels to illegally influence the twenty sixteen election. Joining

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Speaker 1: us now is Joshua nef Talis, former federal prosecutor partner

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Speaker 1: at Palace. Josh, first of all, just what's your general

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Speaker 1: reaction to the fact that this verdict came in all

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Speaker 1: guilty counts and really within two days.

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Speaker 4: So, I mean, it's obviously historic, but I don't think

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Speaker 4: it's necessarily surprising when a jury comes back this quickly.

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Speaker 4: When I when I saw the sort of the news

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Speaker 4: flash that there was a verdict, that's it's got to

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Speaker 4: be a guilty vertical that comes out quickly. So, I mean,

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Speaker 4: kudos to the government from proving its case.

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Speaker 1: And Josh, there was a lot of talk from the

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Speaker 1: very beginning about how, you know, this case was concocted

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Speaker 1: to be a felony when it should have been misdemeanors,

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Speaker 1: and how the government sort of made this into a felony.

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Speaker 1: I mean, was it a difficult case to prove?

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was actually a relatively simple case and

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Speaker 4: it was basically about lying on paper, right that's what

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Speaker 4: the case is about. The now, the motive and the

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Speaker 4: story required telling why he did it and why he

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Speaker 4: knew what he was doing was wrong. But I think it,

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Speaker 4: you know, overall, the government it was a strategically kind

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Speaker 4: of brilliant They took a very complicated fact pattern and

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Speaker 4: turn into a pretty simple felony story.

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Speaker 1: How much do you think the testimony of Michael Cohen,

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Speaker 1: I mean Michael Cohen. Before the case was brought, and

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Speaker 1: you know, there was a lot of talk about how

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Speaker 1: can you bring a case based on the testimony of

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Speaker 1: Michael Cohen? Explain how the prosecutors did that and still

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Speaker 1: got a conviction.

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Speaker 4: So I was I was listening to your conversations, your

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Speaker 4: prior guests, and I think and a couple of things

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Speaker 4: occurred to me, which about Michael Cohen. The first is

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Speaker 4: the difference between state and federal law is if this

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Speaker 4: were a federal court, a jury could convict stolely based

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Speaker 4: on the testimony of Michael Cohen, which is which is

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Speaker 4: It's an interesting difference. And I think the since you

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Speaker 4: had to have corroboration about Michael Cohen, my read of

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Speaker 4: what the jury was asking for, you had asked the

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Speaker 4: prior death. You know, what were their various requests to readback?

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Speaker 4: I think they were looking for corroboration. You know what

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Speaker 4: happened at Trump Power, you know, did what Michael Cohen

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Speaker 4: said line up with the other witnesses? And I think

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Speaker 4: that's obviously why God packed Michael Collins a heavily in

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Speaker 4: his closing argument. So he was certainly a key witness.

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Speaker 4: And I think, you know, my read is that the

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Speaker 4: jury credited him. You know, that's not to say Michael

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Speaker 4: Cohen is a perfect witness. He's definitely not. He's obviously lied,

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Speaker 4: he's admitted to it, and he's sort of got more

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Speaker 4: baggage than the average cooperating witness. But I think in

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Speaker 4: the end, obviously he delivered for the government.

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Speaker 1: You know, looking at the case, and as I was

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Speaker 1: talking with Eric Larson, the defense presented really one witness.

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Speaker 1: The first witness was about records, so they presented Bob Costello,

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Speaker 1: which seemed to backfire on them. As a defense attorney,

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Speaker 1: what else do you think they could have done to

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Speaker 1: make their case stronger.

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Speaker 4: You know, when the defense puts on a case, it's

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Speaker 4: very risky because there's one school of thought that says

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Speaker 4: they should have done nothing right, which is just get

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Speaker 4: up there and say the government didn't meet its burden.

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Speaker 4: But since they called effectively one substance of witness that imploded,

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Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, they've taken on a burden

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Speaker 4: of trying to prove something. And every Jura was sitting

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Speaker 4: there wondering, Wait, that's all they had to show for it.

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Speaker 4: They didn't have to do anything, but they had one

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Speaker 4: with us.

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Speaker 5: And I.

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Speaker 4: Think it's obviously very hard to second get people, but

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Speaker 4: you have to wonder whether in the end it was

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Speaker 4: really worth putting this guy on the stand.

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Speaker 1: In the closing arguments, the main thing was the attack

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Speaker 1: on Michael Cohen. Also that Stormy Daniels was lying. How

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Speaker 1: big a mistake was that for the defense to say

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Speaker 1: that Stormy Daniels was lying about the sexual incident with

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump when it seems like just about everybody accepts

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Speaker 1: that that's the truth. Was it a bad move to

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Speaker 1: start out that way in opening statements and say she's

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Speaker 1: lying about that, and then to close with that too.

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Speaker 4: I agree with you. I mean, I think like everybody

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Speaker 4: has to believe that that happened even before she testified,

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Speaker 4: and that must have been a client driven strategy, which

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Speaker 4: is to deny the fact that the encounter at all.

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Speaker 4: But once again, you take on that bird and the

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Speaker 4: jury sitting there wondering, you know, he's claiming, the President's

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Speaker 4: claiming that the stormy Daniels that you didn't happen. So

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Speaker 4: why would we believe the fact that he didn't pay

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Speaker 4: it off? In the end, it would have been a

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Speaker 4: little simpler to say, like, yeah, this may have happened.

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Speaker 4: That doesn't mean he had committed a crime. But adult

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Speaker 4: three isn't you know, is one thing, But that doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean he committed the crimes of the cutis charged.

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Speaker 1: What do you do when you take on a client

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Speaker 1: like Donald Trump, Because it seems like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the decisions that the defense made were made because they

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Speaker 1: were playing not only to the jury, but they were

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Speaker 1: also having to play to Donald Trump and what he wanted.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think that that Todd and Amiel and

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Speaker 4: Susan did a great job I mean with what was

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Speaker 4: The facts were what they were, and they did the

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Speaker 4: best they could. My guess is that had he had

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Speaker 4: different lawyers, less skilled lawyers, it would have been a

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Speaker 4: circus and they were able to control him in a

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Speaker 4: way that that other lawyers could not have. That's not

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Speaker 4: to say that he was an easy client or that

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Speaker 4: the result they would have been different, But I think

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Speaker 4: that if there had been less strong lawyers on the

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Speaker 4: defense side, they would have probably done more of what

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump wanted, which would have resulted instead of more

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Speaker 4: of the outbursts that was talking about with the judge,

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Speaker 4: where defense layer says one thing and the judge says,

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Speaker 4: sit down, not in my courtroom.

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump has been before about three I think New

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Speaker 1: York judges so far. There was Judge and Goron in

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Speaker 1: the civil case, and then Judge Lewis Caplan in the

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Speaker 1: Egen Carroll case, and now Judge one Marshaan. I think

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Speaker 1: there's one other that I'm leaving out, but all those

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Speaker 1: judges were different. It seemed like Judge and Gourn was

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Speaker 1: a little looser, Judge Caplan was so strict, and then

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Speaker 1: you had Judge Mrshawn, who was somewhere in between.

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Speaker 4: I mean, they were all different postors.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: A criminal case is different, there are different rules in

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Speaker 4: each one. But I think the pressure under each of

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Speaker 4: these judges was extreme, and that.

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Speaker 5: You have.

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Speaker 4: Unbelievable press sort of attention. You have the president of

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Speaker 4: the United States, a former president, on trial. You want

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Speaker 4: to make sure that he gets a fair trial, and

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Speaker 4: you have a difficult client. Who's who's pushing the envelope.

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Speaker 4: I think that the judge did an excellent job. He

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Speaker 4: got this trial in. He didn't lose the jury, meaning

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Speaker 4: like the jurors were able to reach a verdict. There

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Speaker 4: obviously will be an appeal, but he was able to

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Speaker 4: contain what could have been a circus and made it,

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Speaker 4: you know, I think a model of what everyone wanted,

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Speaker 4: which is the president was held to account, whether you know,

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Speaker 4: travel which way you wanted to come out. But a

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Speaker 4: trial occurred and a jury reached a verdict, which was

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Speaker 4: the goal.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of controversy from the Trump side

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Speaker 1: about the gag order that the judge put on Trump

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Speaker 1: as far as witnesses in the case. Does that gag

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Speaker 1: order last through the sentencing?

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Speaker 4: No, I don't know. My guess is that at this

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Speaker 4: point the gag order falls away. I haven't robbed the

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Speaker 4: gag order with that in mind, but really it really

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Speaker 4: was designed not to intimidate witnesses or to infect the journey.

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Speaker 4: Now that now that the trial's over, there's less of

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Speaker 4: the need for it. Obviously, he doesn't want to bate

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Speaker 4: the judge. I mean again, the judge is the one

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Speaker 4: of sentencing him, so he starts the mouse off on

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Speaker 4: Twitter or attack the judge. Then the person who's going

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Speaker 4: to be the ultimate decision maker on the sentence is

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Speaker 4: obviously going to sort of consciously or unconsciously take that

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Speaker 4: into account.

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Speaker 1: The judge has set a sentencing date for July eleventh,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty much along the lines of when you'd

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Speaker 1: set a sentencing date for anyone who is convicted of

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Speaker 1: a felony and the district attorney wouldn't say whether or

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Speaker 1: not they were going to seek prison time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what are the chances that Donald Trump will be sentenced

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Speaker 1: to prison time? Remote?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I'm almost positive if he'll get prison time, you are, yeah,

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Speaker 4: The question is whether or when he will serve it.

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Speaker 4: I think the judge will impose a sentence I don't

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Speaker 4: know how long, but will impose prison time. There will

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Speaker 4: then be a series of appeals that will go on

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Speaker 4: for some time, and I doubt he will be remanded

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Speaker 4: during that time period. But I think sort of the

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Speaker 4: principle that no one is above the law sort of

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Speaker 4: would dictate that you get a prison sentence. That doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean he's going to jail for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 4: You know that the sentence will be what it is.

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Speaker 4: But I think that this judges may clearly prepared to

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Speaker 4: punish mister Trump.

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Speaker 1: Even though I mean, he's not above the law. But

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Speaker 1: it's his first time, you know, being convicted of anything.

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Speaker 1: He's seventy seven years old. Also take into account that

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure, and the judge mentioned this during the trial,

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Speaker 1: how the Secret Service would work out in prison. Don't

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Speaker 1: you think that those things might interfere with a prison sentence? Mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to convince you play devil's advocate.

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Speaker 4: I agree that it's a tough call. I think the

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Speaker 4: judge may clear and the Secret Service made clear that

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Speaker 4: they could deal with this as awkward as it would be.

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Speaker 4: That's thought to say, this is going to be a

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Speaker 4: long sentence necessarily, but there is a certain symbolism to it,

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Speaker 4: which is, if you don't send someone to jail for

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Speaker 4: a felony, what's the point of prosecuting.

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Speaker 1: I'll leave it at that and we'll find it, I guess.

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Speaker 1: On July eleven, Thanks so much. Josh that's former federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor Joshua Neptalis. You're listening to a special edition of

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Show. We're discussing a New York jury

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Speaker 1: this afternoon finding Donald Trump guilty of thirty four felony

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Speaker 1: counts of falsifying business records to conceal a hush money

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Speaker 1: payment to adult film actress Stormy Daniels in a scheme

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Speaker 1: to illegally influence the twenty sixteen election. Joining me now

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Speaker 1: is former federal Prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner McCarter and

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Speaker 1: English Bob. I'm asking everybody, what's your first reaction to

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Speaker 1: hearing that this jury came back with thirty four guilty counts.

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Speaker 5: Well, it was unquestionably a historic moment for this country.

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Speaker 5: The first former US president charged with a crime, and

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Speaker 5: now it convicted felon. I was not so much surprised

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Speaker 5: by the verdict, but I was surprised by the swiftness

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Speaker 5: by which this jury came to their conclusion. This was

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Speaker 5: a somewhat complicated case in terms of the jury charge.

438
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 5: It was a layered crime in the sense that jurys

439
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 5: had to find first that there was a falsification of

440
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 5: business records, and then that it was done to commit

441
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 5: some other crime, which turned this from a misdemeanor into

442
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 5: a felony. In this case, the other crime was to

443
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,919
Speaker 5: affect the election in some illegal way. And so, for

444
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 5: given all the complexities and the jury instructions and the evidence,

445
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 5: I think it was rather shocking that they came back

446
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 5: with a verdict unanimous on all thirty four counts in

447
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 5: only a day and a half of deliberation.

448
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, the jury instructions fifty pages. They were very complex,

449
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: and unlike in federal courts, I mean, the jurors can't

450
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: take copies of the instructions back with them, So it

451
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 1: is kind of amazing that they were able to figure

452
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 1: it all out because it was complex. I mean, you

453
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: had two parts of it that had to be beyond

454
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt, but then you have the unlawful means,

455
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 1: which could have been any of three different things.

456
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, and often in these cases, even when jurors may

457
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 5: be inclined to convict, they methodically go through all of

458
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 5: the evidence, sort of weighing each count separately, looking at

459
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 5: all the evidence that is there presented by the prosecution,

460
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 5: considering the defense and it was surprising that in a

461
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 5: case with this level of complexity the verdict came back

462
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 5: so quickly. What it does signal is that there really

463
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 5: was no doubt in the minds of these jurors as

464
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 5: to the guilt of foreign President Trump. They obviously viewed

465
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 5: the evidence is overwhelming for the prosecution, and there was

466
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 5: obviously little descent among jurors about the outcome of this case.

467
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 1: I mean, I'd love to talk to ajur about this,

468
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: because I'm curious as to how much the closing arguments

469
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 1: helped them, because the prosecutor and they went long, and

470
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: they went late, but he took them through just about

471
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: every piece of evidence that they needed to find guilt,

472
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 1: and in a methodical kind of way, whereas the defense,

473
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: which is the way the defense usually is, is just

474
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: trying to poke holes in the prosecution's case.

475
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right. I mean, the defense strategy was ultimately

476
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 5: to try to raise reasonable doubt and to try to

477
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 5: raise reasonable doubt in the mind of even one juror,

478
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 5: because a hung jury where there is not unanimity on

479
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 5: any one count of the indictment is exactually a win

480
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 5: for the defense. I mean, the prosecutors can try the

481
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 5: case again, but the individual is not convicted. So here

482
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 5: I agree with you. I think the prosecution did a

483
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 5: very good job. They took an awful long time, but

484
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 5: I think it was worth the time they put in

485
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 5: there because they did take these jurors through every step

486
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 5: of this case witnessed by witness in the New York

487
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 5: state courts. Unlike in federal court, where prosecutors go first

488
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 5: and then the defense goes and then prosecutors get a rebuttal,

489
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 5: in New York state court, the defense goes first and

490
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 5: then prosecutors have the last word. So the closing statements

491
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 5: here for prosecutors, there was really a combination of rebuttal

492
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 5: of what the defense presented and also presenting their own

493
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 5: closing arguments. And that's probably why it took so long.

494
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 5: But it was very thorough and apparently very effective in

495
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 5: terms of convincing these jurors that this was really an

496
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 5: opening shutcase.

497
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: This really presented a unique test of the legal system

498
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: because Trump was a former president. You have that and

499
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: his relentless attacks verbal attack on the case. The judge

500
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: the DA describe how you know if you're the prosecutor

501
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: in the case or you're the judge in this case,

502
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: how that adds to your sort of difficulty or I'm

503
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: gonna say adjita.

504
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, certainly there have been other high profile criminal

505
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 5: prosecutions OJ Simpson. You know, lots of others that were

506
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 5: very high profile, but we've never really seen one where

507
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 5: the defendant had the kind of platform that former President

508
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 5: Trump has every day to step outside of that courtroom

509
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 5: and to reach millions of Americans commenting on the case,

510
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 5: commenting on the strength of the evidence, commenting on the witnesses,

511
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 5: the judge, the prosecutors, challenging them all along the way,

512
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 5: and that's something the prosecutors, as you say, do not

513
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 5: typically face. The question though, ultimately is did that make

514
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 5: its way to the jury in any way? Did that

515
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 5: have any impact on any of the witnesses? And I

516
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,719
Speaker 5: guess we can conclud that it did not because of

517
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 5: the swiftness with which this verdict was returned.

518
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: Jurors are always told, you know, you can't look at news,

519
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: you can't do this, you can't do that, and jurors

520
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: often don't listen to those You find out later that

521
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: they don't listen to all the different admonitions that the

522
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: judge gives them. In this case. I mean, it would

523
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: have been hard for them to avoid hearing about over

524
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: five weeks to avoid hearing things about the trial, don't

525
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: you think?

526
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 5: I agree with that? And I think even leading up

527
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 5: to the trial, before these twelve individuals were even sitting

528
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 5: on this jury, there was obviously an enormous amount of

529
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 5: publicity about this trial, and there were statements made by

530
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 5: forming and former President Trump about the case, even though

531
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 5: he was admonished by the judge, and there were gag

532
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 5: orders in place, But there was an awful lot that

533
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 5: was out there that they no doubt were exposed to,

534
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 5: and yet they were instructed to put all of that

535
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 5: aside and to make it decision based solely upon the

536
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 5: evidence that was presented to them during the trial by

537
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 5: the defense, by the prosecutor, and followed the instructions of

538
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 5: the judge as to the law. And ultimately that's what

539
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 5: they appear to do here. There's no evidence that they

540
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,720
Speaker 5: listen to information outside the jury room. If that comes

541
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 5: to light, that creates certainly an issue for the defense

542
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 5: to take up on appeal, if not sooner. But at

543
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 5: this point it appears that jurors did what they were

544
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 5: supposed to do. They followed the rules and they did

545
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 5: their jobs, and they ultimately found that there was overwhelming

546
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 5: evidence of guilt in this case.

547
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: So the system worked. Yet we're going to hear over

548
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: and over from Trump that the system didn't work. What

549
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 1: do you think about appellate issues. I assume one is

550
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: going to be the change of venue, because today, when

551
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: he got out of the court, he started talking about

552
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: the fact that the judge denied a change of venue.

553
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Well, there's a host of issues that I

554
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 5: think we'll see raised on appeal. Some of them perhaps

555
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 5: have more merits than others. But there was that motion

556
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 5: for a change of venue. As you say, that was

557
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 5: predicated on the idea that Manhattan voted overwhelmingly for President

558
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 5: Biden didn't vote for President Trump. I don't think that's

559
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 5: really a fruitful argument. I don't think you can show

560
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 5: that the jury pool was infected or was in any

561
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 5: way by it simply because you didn't vote for somebody

562
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 5: for president. That doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have

563
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 5: an open mind in terms of how you view them

564
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 5: in a criminal case. But they're going to raise that issue,

565
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 5: and they're going to point out that there was so

566
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 5: much pre trial publicity here, but again, that would be

567
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 5: the case pretty much anywhere in the United States, no

568
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 5: matter where you went. And if you think about it logically, also,

569
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 5: if you moved it out of Manhattan to an area

570
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 5: that another part of the country, you know that area

571
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 5: might have voted for former President Trump, then you sort

572
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 5: of have the opposite situation. And so I was not

573
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 5: surprising to me at all that the judge denied that motion.

574
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 5: There are other issues, certainly the fact that this is

575
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 5: a unique and somewhat novel application of the law. The

576
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 5: way that Alvin Bragg charged this case, it had really

577
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 5: never been done before. There's no appellate rulings on the

578
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 5: way he turned the misdemeanors into felonies here by relying

579
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 5: on an allegation that the cover up was really the

580
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 5: essence of this crime. In other words, false documents were created.

581
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 5: That's the business record crime, that's the misdemeanor. But what

582
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 5: turns into a felony is that it was done for

583
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 5: the purpose of committing another crime, and that is to

584
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,719
Speaker 5: influence the election. There's not a lot of case law

585
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 5: on that, and I think we can expect the defense

586
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 5: to raise that as a major issue on their.

587
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: Appeal, Bob, we discussed when the jury was selected the

588
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: fact that, surprise, surprise, there was not only one, but

589
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: two jurors who were lawyers. Plus you had I think

590
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: three MBA's and someone were a doctorate. This was a

591
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: really smart jury advantage prosecution.

592
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 5: Well, that was to me always sort of the open

593
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 5: question as a lawyer and as a prosecutor, even as

594
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 5: a defense lawyer, you really don't want a lawyer sitting

595
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 5: on your jury, let alone two of them, because they

596
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 5: do have the ability to sort of overwhelm the rest

597
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 5: of the jurors. Because jurors will defer to them, you

598
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 5: don't really know what their views are. You really want

599
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 5: it to be a level playing field where everybody has

600
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,959
Speaker 5: the same voice. But in this case, both the defense

601
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 5: and the prosecutors were willing to have these two jurors

602
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 5: sit on this jury, and at the end of the day,

603
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 5: they both I guess decided that an educated jury, one

604
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 5: that paid close attention to all of the details, somebody

605
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 5: that was steeped in the law. Even though neither of

606
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 5: these lawyers were criminal lawyers, but they were lawyers. They

607
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 5: understood the way the law worked, and I guess both

608
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 5: prosecutors and the defense thought that that might be an

609
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 5: advantage to their side.

610
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: Is there anything you think the defense could have done

611
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: to change this? The evidence was overwhelming.

612
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 5: I think it was a very tough case for the defense.

613
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 5: They did a pretty good job of beating up on

614
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 5: Michael Cone. They showed that he had lied before, that

615
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 5: he had lied repeatedly. They showed that he had a

616
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 5: financial motive in order to provide this testimony. They showed

617
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 5: that he had a personal vendetta against former President Trump.

618
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 5: SOHO really can't score any more points than they did

619
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 5: with Michael Cohne. But at the end of the day,

620
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 5: prosecutors did a good job of bolstering and corroborating his

621
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 5: testimony with other evidence. And one of the things prosecutors did,

622
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 5: I think very effectively is that they relied on witnesses

623
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 5: who were clearly still in the Trump camp. People who

624
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 5: worked for former President Trump. May not have been still

625
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 5: close to him, like Hope Hicks, but somebody who was

626
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 5: still loyal to him. And yet they were able to

627
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,280
Speaker 5: elicit testimony that was damaging to the defense and helpful

628
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 5: for prosecutors from witnesses who had no bias against former

629
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 5: President Trump whatsoever. That was compelling testimony, and I think

630
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 5: sat up and paid attention when those witnesses testified.

631
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 1: You're listening to a special edition of the Bloomberg Law

632
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: Show as we cover the historic verdict former President Donald

633
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: Trump guilty of thirty four felonies. So, Bob, I just

634
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: talked to Joshua and Neftalis, who I'm sure you're familiar with.

635
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: He said he thinks that Donald Trump is going to

636
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 1: be sentenced to prison. What's your take on that?

637
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,879
Speaker 5: Well, obviously that is now the big question now that

638
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 5: the conviction has come in and all eyes turned to

639
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 5: the Jugs here for sentencing. Typically, in a case like this,

640
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 5: you might not expect a jail sentence, but this is

641
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 5: not a typical case as a case that is obviously

642
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 5: a very high profile. It was enormously covered by the Bandia.

643
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 5: There was enormous attention he really throughout the world, and

644
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 5: I think the jug is going to be hard pressed

645
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 5: to only sentence former President Trump to probation in this case.

646
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 5: So I do think there will be some type of

647
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 5: jail sentence here, although I think it will be minimal,

648
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 5: more symbolic than really punitive because of the circumstance of

649
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 5: a former president, I'm putting him in jail. I also

650
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 5: think it's likely that the judge will say that sentence

651
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 5: of incarceration if he in fact imposes that, to allow

652
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 5: the appeal to go forward, so at the time of

653
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 5: the election, we won't have a situation where former President

654
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 5: Trump is actually sitting in jail. Typically in New York State,

655
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 5: the sentence comes about a month after the conviction, and

656
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 5: if there's jail imposed, usually that begins almost immediately. But

657
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 5: the judge does have the discretion to allow the defendant

658
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 5: to remain on bail pending appeal, which I think is

659
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 5: likely the scenario we'll see here and.

660
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: Just explain that this is a state conviction. So what

661
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: that means if Donald Trump becomes president.

662
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 5: Sure, So of all the cases that are out there,

663
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 5: and there are several, as you know, there are a

664
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 5: number of federal prosecutions pending, one in the District of

665
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 5: Columbia involving January sixth, there's the document destruction case down

666
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 5: in Florida. Those are federal cases that ultimately a president

667
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 5: can pardon somebody who's convicted of a federal crime. Whether

668
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 5: a president can pardon himself is untested, but certainly something

669
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 5: that former President Trump could do if he were to

670
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 5: be elected president again. But state crimes such as the

671
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 5: one in Atlanta and this one, that a president cannot

672
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 5: pardon themselves, So he has no control whatsoever in terms

673
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 5: of removing this conviction, of overturning it simply because he

674
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 5: becomes president. The only way to overturn this conviction will

675
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 5: be on appeal, and they'll have to convince the Court

676
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 5: of Appeals that there was some type of reversible error

677
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 5: that was committed here to either throw the case out

678
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,879
Speaker 5: or send it back for a retrial if they're able

679
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 5: to convince the Court of Appeals that those types of

680
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 5: errors occur here.

681
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: Is this a vindication for Alvin Bragg and all the

682
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: abuse he took, at least in the media and from

683
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: Republicans about bringing this case, You know, a case that

684
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: was based on misdemeanors and then he bumped it up,

685
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: as you explained before, to felonies. And you know, at

686
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: the press conference, I remember when he brought this, they

687
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: kept asking him over and over and over what's the

688
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 1: underlying crime? And he didn't say, And we didn't learn

689
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: until we saw the jury instructions really well.

690
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 5: He did keep that very close to the vest. But

691
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: I think they did a good job of trying to

692
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 5: convince durreors that this was not a case about record keeping.

693
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 5: It was a case about election interference. And you heard

694
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 5: prosecutors actually say during closing arguments that this crime might

695
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 5: have might have because they could not simply say categorically

696
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 5: what the outcome would have been, but they said that

697
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 5: it might have actually affected the outcome of the election.

698
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 5: In other words, if the Stormy Daniels story had broken

699
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 5: just days before the election, after the Access Hollywood tapes

700
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,520
Speaker 5: and everything going on there, could it have affected the outcome?

701
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 5: Could the outcome of the president so the election had

702
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 5: been different. That was their theme, because they were trying

703
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 5: to convince jurors that this was a really important case.

704
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 5: This was not simply a bookkeeping case, a clerical error

705
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 5: simply calling something a legal engagement letter, a payment of

706
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 5: a legal retainer when it was really something else. They

707
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 5: wanted to show the real significance here, and that's why

708
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 5: they spent so much time talking about what was going

709
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 5: on in the Trump campaign, the impact of that Access

710
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 5: Hollywood tape where he was recorded making comments about grabbing

711
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 5: women and the free fall that the campaign was in

712
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 5: at that time, and how significant it would have been

713
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 5: if this story had come out. So they did a

714
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 5: very good job of selling that story to jurors and

715
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 5: convincing them that this was really an important case.

716
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 1: And Alvin Bragg played this much differently from what the

717
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: New York Attorney General, Letitia James did in the case

718
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: where New York was recovering money from the Trump organization.

719
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: So she would come out every day almost in response

720
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: to Trump's statements on the on the courthouse steps. She

721
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 1: would make statements on the courthouse steps. But Bragg didn't

722
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: make any statements at all. He was in the courtroom

723
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: a few times, but nothing to the press. And then

724
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: tonight it was a very low key kind of press

725
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: conference and he didn't answer the questions that people were

726
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: firing at him about whether they were going to see

727
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: jail time, et cetera. Is that the difference between a

728
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: criminal and a civil case or is that just different personalities.

729
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 5: I think that's really just a question of different styles.

730
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 5: And you're absolutely right that the Manhattan DA was incredibly understated.

731
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 5: At the press conference after the conviction, he almost tried

732
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 5: to make it sound like this was just another day

733
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 5: in the office. While this was an important case, he

734
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 5: cited a couple other important cases his office had recently handled,

735
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 5: and he was really trying to convey that this case

736
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 5: was nothing special in terms of how it was handled

737
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 5: by this office. It was straight down the middle. The

738
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 5: fact that it was a former president, that it was historic,

739
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 5: none of that ultimately affected how the case was prosecuted,

740
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 5: how the charges were brought, and how it was ultimately handled.

741
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 5: And I think that was an effective strategy. The prosecutors

742
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 5: and the Manhattan DA himself let them let all of

743
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 5: their talking take place in the courtroom and did not

744
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 5: engage in any of the theatrics and the hyperbole that

745
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 5: we saw from former President Trump. And as you say,

746
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 5: the Attorney General Letitia James in the civil case, so

747
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 5: he really tried to downplay the circus atmosphere and focused

748
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 5: the public on what was going on inside the courtroom,

749
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 5: which ultimately I think was an effective strategy.

750
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Bob, as always a pleasure having you on.

751
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: That's former federal prosecutor Robert Mints of McCarter and English. Well,

752
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: we're going to continue with our coverage of the Donald

753
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: Trump verdict. We are covering a jury verdict late this

754
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: afternoon which found Donald Trump guilty of thirty four felony counts.

755
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: Joining us now is someone who is in the courtroom

756
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: for the entire trial, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal reporter. So, pat,

757
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: did you think it would happen so fast? I mean,

758
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: we've talked almost every day about this case, and it

759
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: seemed like a verdict was far away.

760
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 7: Well, you know, from the way the defense was talking.

761
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 7: They delivered closing arguments, and I thought it was really

762
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 7: interesting yesterday that the jury had asked for testimony between

763
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 7: David Pecker and Michael Cohen, and the defense lawyer Todd

764
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 7: Blanchett argued in closing to the jury that Cowen had

765
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 7: completely contradicted Pecker. But if you let actually listen to

766
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 7: the readback which of the testimony we heard this morning,

767
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 7: it became really clear that he didn't at all. It

768
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 7: actually that they had corroborated each other, it seemed. Then

769
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 7: the jury got quiet for quite some time, and then

770
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 7: this app afternoon suddenly half of the courtroom lost their internet,

771
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 7: So when the verdict was being announced, half of us

772
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 7: did not have any ability to cover it because it

773
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 7: went down. Whether it was jammed or it was an accident,

774
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 7: I don't know, but it was quite heart stopping. But

775
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 7: it gave me the ability to really stop and look

776
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 7: at everybody and to hear that first count guilty, and

777
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 7: then here for four straight minutes, thirty four counts of guilty, guilty, guilty,

778
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 7: guilty being uttered. It was just unbelievable, like a wave.

779
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 7: And then we heard cheers from outside the courthouse. Were

780
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 7: on the fifteenth floor, but it seemed that the word

781
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 7: had gotten filtered out to news crews outside and there

782
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 7: were cheers from people out in the park that had

783
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 7: gathered to hear it. So it was quite a historic moment.

784
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: Did do you know did the jurors look at Donald

785
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: Trump when they were reading.

786
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 7: That they they filed in and they did not make

787
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 7: eye contact with him what they walked in, which is

788
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 7: to me always a tip off. And then as they

789
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 7: were looking most of them were looking down. But they

790
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 7: pulled the jury and it was unanimous.

791
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: Donald Trump heard this. It seemed to me like from

792
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: his statements outside the courthouse that he was sort of

793
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: prepared for this. I mean the other day he said

794
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: that you know it would take mother Teresa to beat

795
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: these charges.

796
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 7: Well, I mean I did speak to my colleague photographers.

797
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 7: I mean we were locked in the courtroom. We're not

798
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 7: allowed to move if Trunk is moving for his security concerns.

799
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 7: But my colleague photographers captured some astounding images of his

800
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 7: trial team looking completely shattered and shocked, including Lena Haba,

801
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 7: his lawyer, with her jaw dropping open, and some of

802
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 7: the court officers looked stricken. It was an amazing thing.

803
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 7: And they said that Trump seemed to be fumbling to

804
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 7: try to figure out what to say. He as he

805
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 7: walked out of the courtroom, he said, so sat stoneface

806
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 7: as the verdict was announced and looked straight ahead, and

807
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 7: then he got up and he was it looked like

808
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 7: you know when his face was just fury. And then

809
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 7: he turned around and he fist bumped his son, Eric Trump,

810
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 7: who would see it right behind him. And then he

811
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 7: basically strode down the center aisle of the courtroom and

812
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 7: walked out to have to make his statement.

813
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 5: But it was not the.

814
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 7: Kind of forceful thing you typically expect from Donald Trump. No,

815
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 7: so you know, he might have been prepared that he

816
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 7: was possibly expecting the guilty verdict.

817
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was very much similar to things that he's

818
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 1: been saying, you know, basically every day, every other day.

819
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: What about the prosecutors, were they smiling at least?

820
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 7: Yes, there were huge grins from the prosecutors like Josh Steinlass,

821
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 7: who spent five hours on Tuesday trying to convince the

822
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 7: jury and going through all the massive evidence. He called

823
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 7: it a mountain of evidence. A Matthew Colangelo, who was

824
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 7: a former federal prosecutor who had done a masterful job

825
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 7: of openings. He had a huge grin. And Susan Hoffinger,

826
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 7: who came to joined Bragg's team as a criminal defense lawyer,

827
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,919
Speaker 7: as a criminal defense lawyer, she came back as a prosecutor.

828
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 7: She had done an amazing cross examination of Robert Costello,

829
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 7: who was Trump's witness, and they all had huge grins

830
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 7: on their faces.

831
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 1: You know better than anyone having covered this so long,

832
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: the sort of abuse that Alvin Bragg has taken for

833
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 1: bringing this case and for having Michael Cohen as the

834
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: star witness. And yet right after he really didn't gloat

835
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: or anything. He just was very very straightforward about the case.

836
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 7: Alvin Bragg has a reputation. I was listening to Rob Ninstre.

837
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 7: He has a reputation of being a very circumspect person.

838
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 7: He's not a dynamic speaker at all. And I think

839
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 7: under the law and criminal cases are different from Tis James.

840
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 7: So she can go out and have a press conference,

841
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 7: but under criminal law, prosecutors have to be much more

842
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 7: careful of what they're saying on the courthouse steps, and

843
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 7: they cannot basically try their case on the steps of

844
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 7: the courthouse. They have to limit their statements to what's

845
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 7: going on in court. Alan Bragg is practitioner of that

846
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 7: to the NS degree. But he did seem very happy,

847
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 7: and he was basically saying that, well, they've had massive

848
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 7: fights and battles to this reach this day, a jury

849
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 7: has ultimately spoken, and now we've arrived at this trial,

850
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 7: and ultimately this verdict is in the same manner that

851
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 7: any other case is brought in this courthouse. But even

852
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 7: if it's historic, it was treated just the way the

853
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 7: office is always handled white collar crime.

854
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,479
Speaker 1: He also didn't say whether or not the prosecutors would

855
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 1: be seeking prison time for Donald Trump. Do you have

856
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: any insight into that, Well.

857
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 7: He can ask. Under the law, it's anywhere from one

858
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 7: in a third to four years for each count. I

859
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 7: understand it would not be added to stamps together and

860
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,800
Speaker 7: you know, all of them linked together and add it

861
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:06,320
Speaker 7: up to you know, let's say seventy years in prison

862
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,439
Speaker 7: or whatever. It would be consecutive, so they would all

863
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 7: be concurrent, so they would all merge together. Whether or

864
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 7: not a first time offender who's Trump's age faces prison

865
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 7: is another matter. I don't know what Judge Mershawn is

866
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 7: going to do. And Alvin Bragg wouldn't say what he's

867
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 7: going to do, but he said he would limit his

868
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:29,919
Speaker 7: statements and comments about what he's going to do about

869
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 7: Donald Trump to the court and court filings.

870
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 1: Stay with US Patty. Joining us now is former federal

871
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: prosecutor Michael Zelden. Michael, I've asked everyone, because this is

872
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 1: a question on a lot of people's minds, whether or

873
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 1: not you think Donald Trump will be sentenced to some

874
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 1: time in prison.

875
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 6: I don't. I don't think you should. If you want

876
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 6: to keep the system working according to the you know,

877
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 6: sort of structure of it, a person with his past

878
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,239
Speaker 6: record should be put on probation. Now, he is a

879
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 6: former political official, and sometimes it's important to make these

880
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 6: politically exposed persons held a capable to a higher standard,

881
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 6: and if the judge thinks that's appropriate, then I would

882
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 6: think a period of house arrest could be important message

883
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 6: to be sent to other public officials. But going to

884
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 6: Rikers Island or some place like that, I be very surprised.

885
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: Judge Murshawn maybe deserves an award for his ability to

886
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: take this case through to the end and not lose

887
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: his temper too many times. I mean, it was a

888
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: tough case to preside over. He encountered so many obstacles

889
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 1: day after day that you wouldn't encounter in a normal trial.

890
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 6: Well, you encounter them in high publicity trials. We saw

891
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 6: that in the judge edo failure in the OJ Simpson case.

892
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 6: I think we saw with a certain extent in the

893
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 6: judge ergo On trial for the Letitia James case. I

894
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 6: think both of those judges, on a sliding scale, didn't

895
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 6: do as well as this judge. I think this judge

896
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 6: handled himself professionally, did not take debate ever, protected the

897
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 6: judicial personnel and other family members of them appropriately, and

898
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 6: I think he gave a sober recitation of what the

899
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 6: criminal justice system should look like.

900
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: Pat tell Us about the judge's sort of performance here,

901
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:38,560
Speaker 1: I'll say.

902
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 7: The judge has been extremely careful and cautious. He's a

903
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 7: very mild mannered guy. He never loses his temper. I

904
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 7: made the joke to you June that most of us

905
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 7: would love to have a husband like that, because he

906
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,280
Speaker 7: never loses his temper. He as and he has been challenged.

907
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 7: I think the magnumity of the important import of what

908
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 7: he has to do in this case has always weighed

909
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 7: heavily on him, and he takes it extremely seriously. So

910
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 7: he's not a kind of guy like Judging Goren, who

911
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 7: used to make jokes and be very jocular and make

912
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,280
Speaker 7: you know, goof arown. He is a just a very

913
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 7: serious person. So I mean, and he's been challenged by Trump,

914
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 7: has Alvin Bragg, and has that trial team. They've had

915
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 7: death threats so and Judge Mershawn's daughter was threatened. So

916
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 7: and we all need to remember that Donald Trump had

917
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 7: promised death and destruction if he got indicted, and that's

918
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 7: what happened. So here we are a year later, and

919
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 7: everybody's had to deal with this historic case with a

920
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 7: historic that doesn't act like most offidents.

921
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Michael I mean, we didn't hear from the

922
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: jurors so far. I'm not sure if we will hear

923
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: from the jurors because of you know, the ways at

924
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: least part of the country has reacted to Donald Trump

925
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 1: being prosecuted.

926
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 6: If I were a juror, I would be quiet. I

927
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 6: don't see any value to them individually in speaking forward. Now.

928
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 6: The news networks, of course, are going to be doing

929
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,360
Speaker 6: everything and they can to get their first big scoop

930
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 6: of the juror to talk about what happened in the

931
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,319
Speaker 6: jury room. But I think we'd be better off and

932
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 6: they individually, we're better off if we just let.

933
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 4: It be as it is now.

934
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 1: Patty, what do you think book deals? I mean, there's

935
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: a lot that a juror could do here.

936
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 7: It was stunning to be that prospective jurors walked out

937
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 7: of the courthouse after being dismissed and saying they were

938
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 7: too frightened to be on a jury, and then they

939
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 7: walked in front of the CE cameras and gave interviews

940
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 7: as always shocks me. I've also as a veteran court

941
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 7: reporter and have covered hundreds of trials where the jurors

942
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 7: will say, oh, sorry, no interviews, including Glenne Maxwell's juror

943
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 7: that later came forward and staid he would you know

944
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 7: that he had cried when he left the courthouse. And

945
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 7: I actually door stopped him as he walked out of

946
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,240
Speaker 7: the Manhattan Sedal Courthouse and said would you like to comment?

947
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 7: And he basically ran away from me. So I'm always

948
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 7: kind of surprised when I see people, but I guess

949
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,479
Speaker 7: when they want to see get their fifteen minutes the same,

950
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 7: some people are very tempted. I personally kind of think

951
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 7: in this case, you know, I will look for every

952
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 7: angle to challenge this. So I kind of agree there

953
00:53:28,239 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 7: with my cops that I don't know if it's such

954
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 7: a good idea, especially for someone like Donald Trump who

955
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,440
Speaker 7: wants to and his followers. So I don't know they

956
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 7: want to proceed as and.

957
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: The judge spoke to the jurors after the verdict was

958
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: handed down.

959
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 7: Patty yes, and he thanked them for their service, and

960
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,720
Speaker 7: he said things like, you know, this was an amazing

961
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 7: job you guys did, and it was historic and what

962
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 7: you've done is you've paid all this attention and you

963
00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:58,000
Speaker 7: know you've.

964
00:53:59,400 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 5: It.

965
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 7: You know, he wanted to thank them personally, so he

966
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 7: asked them. He said, I can't get into details of

967
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 7: the case, but I also just want to thank you personally.

968
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 7: And you know, we also had other jurors reach verdicts

969
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 7: on We had two other jurors juries reached verdicts on

970
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 7: Donald Trump in New York City. We had two Manhattan

971
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 7: federal juris in the E. G. And Carroll case, and

972
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 7: they were both deemed anonymous by the federal judge in

973
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 7: that case. So it kind of I don't know that's

974
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 7: the practice in federal court. But you know, he said,

975
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,440
Speaker 7: you were engaged in a very stressful and difficult task,

976
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 7: and I want you to know that I really admire

977
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 7: your dedication and hard work. You're free to discuss this

978
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 7: case with anyone, and you're free to not discuss it.

979
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:43,240
Speaker 7: The choice is yours.

980
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,680
Speaker 1: How long do you think before we see appellet papers here?

981
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,239
Speaker 7: I understand under New York state law. I talked to

982
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 7: two criminal defense players, the veteran criminal defense layers in

983
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 7: New York, and they said that under the law in

984
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 7: New York, a defendant cannot appeal start their appeal until

985
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 7: after their sentence because of technically, in this weird limbo

986
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 7: awaiting sentence. So Donald Trump has to wait to at

987
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 7: least a lie to file those papers. That's not going

988
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 7: to mean he's not going to try it, and his

989
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 7: lawyers did. Today. After the verdict, Todd Blinch stood and

990
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 7: asked for an acquittal, saying that Michael Cohene was completely unbelievable,

991
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 7: and the judge firmly rejected it. Now, going on to

992
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 7: what Mershawn has said about prison, he has warned Trump

993
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 7: that he has to he had to obey the gag

994
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 7: order or else he might have to imprison him. And

995
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 7: he called it the you know, basically it was like

996
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 7: a last resort that he didn't want to do for

997
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 7: its pre trial whether or not he does it. He

998
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 7: said to the jury when the defense lawyer mentioned, don't

999
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 7: send him to prison on this these charges, that was

1000
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 7: a call for a curative instruction. And the judge told

1001
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 7: the jury this verdict may not result in prison.

1002
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: We'll have to leave it there. That's the big question

1003
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: going going forward. Thank you both, Patricia Hurtado, Bloomberg Legal

1004
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 1: reporter and Michael Zelden, former federal prosecutor. And that's it

1005
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,719
Speaker 1: for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you

1006
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg

1007
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1008
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: and at www dot bloomberg dot com, slash podcast slash Law,

1009
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

1010
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso

1011
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg