1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtchworld. Nearly a century ago, in 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: a blockbuster legal proceeding that brought the attention of the 3 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: entire country to the small town of Dayton, Tennessee, attorney 4 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: Clarence Darrow defended high school teacher John Scopes, who was 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: accused of violating a state law that made it a 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: crime to teach evolution. Three time presidential candidate and former 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan argued for the prosecution. 8 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: In a daring move, Darrow called Brian to the witness 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: stand as an expert on the Bible and creationism. Darrow's 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,919 Speaker 1: seminal defense of freedom speech helped form the legal bedrock 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: on which our civil liberties now depend. Here to discuss 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: his new book, The Trial of the Century, about Clarence 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: Darrow and the famous Scopes monkey trial. I'm really pleased 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: to welcome my guest, Greg Jarrett. He's a number one 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: New York Times bestselling author, legal and political analyst, and attorney. 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: He joined Fox News in two thousand and two after 17 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: more than a decade of local and national news outlets 18 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: including NBC, ABC, Court TV, and MSNBC. Greg, welcome and 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. On Newsworld. 20 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: Oh my pleasure, mister speaker, thanks for having me. 21 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: It's a delight And this book is really a fascinating book. 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious, given all the different things you've done, what 23 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: led you to this particular book, what was it that 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: fascinated you about Clarence Darrow. 25 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 2: Well, it started, I suppose more than fifty years ago 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 2: when I was a young teenager. My father was a 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: lawyer and had this huge collection of wonderful books in 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: our home on his bookshelves, and I can't say I 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: read them all, but probably ninety percent of them. But 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: the one that really struck me was this wonderful book 31 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: by Irving Stone, a biography on Clarence Darrow. I still 32 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 2: have it. In fact, it's sitting here right next to me, 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: a nineteen forty one edition, So then you know, it 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: was probably about thirty years old. But that seemingly random 35 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: act of just sort of plucking a book off my 36 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 2: dad's shelf shaped the contours of my life. It inspired 37 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: me to pursue a legal career. I didn't know it 38 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: at the time, but it did. And I've been thinking 39 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: about writing this book because towards the end of Stone's biography. 40 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: He tells the tale in a very short form of 41 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 2: the most amazing legal blockbuster trial of the century. It 42 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: became known as the trial of the century, and it 43 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: still is because it helped to rescue and solidify those things, 44 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 2: mister speaker, which we hold year every day, civil liberties, 45 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 2: free speech, academic autonomy, and the indispensable proposition that nobody 46 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 2: should be told how to think. The government is repeatedly 47 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: getting in the business if telling us what to do, 48 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: what to believe, what to think, what to say, and 49 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 2: that's fundamentally wrong. And Darrow stood up to the government 50 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: and he reshaped public opinion. And the banning of books 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: on evolution, the criminalizing of a teacher who dared to 52 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: teach the Cornerstone theory by Charles Darwin, that became a 53 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: thing of the past. 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: How much of your fascination with a trial like this 55 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: came from your own experience watching your dad and and 56 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: watching him talk to a jury and trying a case. 57 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: Well, it certainly had a deep influence on me. So 58 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: it was both Darrow and my father. My father I 59 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: always regarded as a brilliant trial attorney. He tried so 60 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: many cases and I would often cut school to watch 61 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: him try cases at the courthouse in downtown Los Angeles, 62 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: just a few blocks from his office, And he would 63 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: take me to his office on the weekend and during 64 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: the summertime, and he taught me a lot about the law, 65 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,119 Speaker 2: how to research cases, important cases, and what they meant. 66 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: And he actually taught me the art of researching cases 67 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 2: in his law library, which back before the computer, obviously 68 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: was a very laborious process. And I'd make fifty cents 69 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: every case I could find for him, so I made 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: a little money. But the dinner table, my father would 71 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 2: sort of begin the conversation by looking at me and say, okay, 72 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: state your name and spell it for the record. I 73 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: mean it was like being on the witness chair and 74 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: getting cross examined by my father, and you know, you 75 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: sort of learn the rules of evidence that way. So 76 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: at the time I went to law school, I think 77 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 2: I had a leg up. 78 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 1: I was going to say, how much of help was 79 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: that in getting through law school? 80 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: Oh, tremendously. As I say, it was long before computers, 81 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 2: and you had to research cases in the law library. 82 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: It was filled with books. Most students struggle to figure 83 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 2: it out. I ended up teaching them how to do it. 84 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: But you went on to become a trial lawyer. 85 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I was in San Francisco. 86 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,839 Speaker 1: And yet then you went off on a television crew. 87 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: It led you from practicing law to television. 88 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 2: Purely serendipitous, Like so many things in life. I sort 89 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 2: of fell into television accidentally. A buddy of mine was 90 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,479 Speaker 2: auditioning for a television show they did that back then, 91 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: and we were going to have dinner afterwards. So I 92 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: just tagged along with the purpose of giving a little support. 93 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 2: And there was mistake that people were lined up. I 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: was standing there with my buddy and they threw on 95 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: a microphone and shoved me in front of the camera. 96 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: I said, well, what the heck, So I do the audition, 97 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 2: I get the job. He's still a dear friend of mine, 98 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 2: you know. That was the beginning. For a while, I 99 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 2: anchored a morning show on a UHF station and practiced 100 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 2: law at the same time. It became too much, and 101 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 2: so I took a sabbatical, and I'm now on my 102 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 2: forty second year. 103 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: Of the sabbatical. That's wild, but that means you're able 104 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: to bring to this case both an understanding of the 105 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: media and an understanding of trials. I think makes you 106 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: unique to be able to explain both what Darrow was 107 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: doing and the kind of national impact it haad. 108 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know when you're starting out a lawyer and 109 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: you know you're grabbing every case you can, And I 110 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 2: was with a young law firm and we tried everything, 111 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: so I got a lot of experience. Immediately. I was 112 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: in court the day I was sworn in to the 113 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: California Bar, arguing in a case in front of a judge. 114 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 2: So I got a lot of experience. That practical experience 115 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: has really paid off because I think I bring to 116 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: the table as a journalist a lot of inside knowledge. 117 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: I can understand tactics and strategy. I know what the 118 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: lawyers are doing, and I try to convey it in 119 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 2: the simplest terms to viewers and listeners, and so it's 120 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: been a lot of fun. 121 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: Frankly, when you're looking at all this and I didn't 122 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: realize this when we had chatted earlier, that you actually 123 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: participated in your high school drama department which produced Inherit 124 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: the Wind, which was the play based on the Scopes 125 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: Monkey Troil. So, in a senseiment for years, you've been 126 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of predestined to do this book. 127 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: You know it's interesting. I think you're correct about it. 128 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: So I had read this Irvingstone biography on Darryl, and 129 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: literally months later, I'm an underclassman in high school and 130 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 2: I noticed on the bulletin board that they're could have 131 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 2: put on a school production of Inherit the Wind, which 132 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 2: I knew was a fictionalized version of the Scopes Monkey Trial, 133 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 2: and so I thought, I don't know how to act. 134 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: I'm a bit shy, but I'm going to audition. And 135 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: I received an exceedingly small part in the play that 136 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: required me to utter all of six words. I still 137 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: remember the words. 138 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: Do you want to share them with us? 139 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 2: A photograph, mister Brady? A photograph. I played the part 140 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: of a town photographer with a tripod old fashioned camera, 141 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: and Brady was actually William Jennings Bryan. Again, it was 142 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: a fictionalized version of it. 143 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: I just want to share with you the same kind 144 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: of I once played the pharmacist in Romeo and Juliet, 145 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: and I think I had a similar number of words. 146 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: So our careers as Thespians had very short participatory roles. 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: Here the pharmacist meaning providing the poison, right. 148 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: Right, and you said like six words like you shouldn't 149 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: take this or something. 150 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't care that. It was a tiny part 151 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: being in the company of Clarence Darrow, even a fictionalized version, 152 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: was all that mattered to me. And then my father 153 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: took me on a trip to London. We sat in 154 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: on the Old Bailey criminal courts and watched solicitors and 155 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: barristers in their white wigs arguing criminal cases. And on 156 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: one night he took me to the theater and there 157 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: was starring Henry Fonda playing the life of Clarence Darrow 158 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: in a one man play, and Jimmy Stewart sitting behind us, 159 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: his longtime pal. And so this just greater inspired and 160 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 2: animated my affection for the great man. And again that's 161 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: really the reason I decided to go to law school. 162 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: And hairt The Wynn was a very significant movie with 163 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: very serious stars. 164 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 2: Yes, Spencer Tracy played Clarence Stero, Frederick Marsh played William 165 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: Jennings Bryan, and unbelievably H. L. Mencn, the legendary journalist 166 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: who was there writing dispatches every day during the Scopes 167 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 2: Monkey trial, was played by Gene Kelly. Now Mencn was 168 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: not a handsome man, to put it politely, and of 169 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 2: course Gene Kelly is this suave, debonair dapper, handsome movie star. 170 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: There's the liberal Hollywood license that you take with works 171 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: of nonfiction and fiction. 172 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: Hi, this is newt. In my new book, March the Majority, 173 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,319 Speaker 1: the Real Story of the Republican Revolution, I offer strategies 174 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: and insights for everyday citizens and for season politicians. It's 175 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: both a guide for political success and for winning back 176 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: the Majority in twenty twenty four. March to the Majority 177 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: outlines the sixteen year campaign to write the Contract with America, 178 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: explains how we elected the first Republican House majority in 179 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: forty years, and how we worked with President Bill Clinton 180 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:18,439 Speaker 1: to pass major reforms, including four consecutive balance budgets. March 181 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: to the Majority tells the behind the scenes story of 182 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: how we got it done. Here's a special offer for 183 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 1: my podcast listeners. You can pre order March the Majority 184 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: right now at gingrishfree sixty dot com slash book and 185 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: it'll be shipped directly to you on June sixth. Don't 186 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: miss out on the special offer. To pre order my 187 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: new book today, go to gingishtree sixty dot com slash 188 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: book and order your copy now. Order it today at 189 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: Gingishtree sixty dot com. Slash book In the real world, 190 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: in terms of Darrow himself, how did he become such 191 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: a successful and nationally recognized attorney. 192 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 2: He started out as a small town lawyer and in 193 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: those days, didn't get much education. I think he could 194 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: afford to go to law school like Lincoln for a 195 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: brief period of time, but he learned by being an 196 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: apprentice in a law firm, and you know, he's able 197 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: to pass the bar. And he starts out as a 198 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,959 Speaker 2: small time lawyer and then he finally decides I'm going 199 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: no place. I'm moving to Chicago, and in a very 200 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: short period of time he becomes one of the most 201 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: prominent attorneys in Chicago. And he's defending the railroads, and 202 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: then he evolves into defending the unions, and that evolves 203 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: into defending the damned. He became known as the Attorney 204 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: for the damned. He despaired the dangers of conformity and 205 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 2: social control and government intrusion, and he upheld the right 206 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: to self determination and individualism. And you know, the lost 207 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: in the damned became his traa clients. He gave them 208 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: what they yearned for compassion and hope, and it was 209 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: something I deeply revered in Daryl. 210 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: It's interesting he seemed to have an instinct for the 211 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: underdog all the way through his career. 212 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, he totally did. As I write in the book, 213 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 2: the needy that despise, the oppressed found a champion. Without him, 214 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: they scarcely stood a chance. I actually quote him from 215 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 2: his own autobiography. He said, I have friends throughout the 216 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: length and breadth of the land, and these are the 217 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 2: poor and the weak and the helpless to whose cause 218 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: I have given voice. And that really speaks volumes about him. 219 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: And yes, he was an agnostic, not an atheist, but 220 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: an agnostic and a liberal. I'm decidedly neither. But that 221 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: didn't matter to me because it wasn't politics that defined Daryl. 222 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: It was his character, his moral values, his principles. That's 223 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: what mattered to me. 224 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: In that sense, he now is sitting there in Chicago 225 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: as a very famous lawyer and described the context in 226 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: which the trial shows up. 227 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: We have to remember that after World War One there 228 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: was this deep religious fervor that swept the country as 229 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: Americans sort of turned inward and Christian fundamentalism began to spread, 230 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: and the religious fervor, led by William Jennings Bryant, who 231 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: became the great fundamentalist leader, began pressuring states into banning 232 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: books on evolution. Now Brian had huge following. He was 233 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: a three time Democrat presidential nominee. He was Woodrow Wilson's 234 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: secretary of State. He had given an unbelievable one of 235 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: the greatest speeches ever given, cris Loss of Gold. It 236 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: was called in the eighteen ninety six Democratic Convention, and 237 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 2: Darrow was there and they became friends as a consequence 238 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 2: of that. But when Darrow lost three times the presidency, 239 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: he began to move in a different direction. He became 240 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 2: this great religious fundamentalist leader, and he started pressuring states 241 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: into banning books on evolution, and in Tennessee he was 242 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 2: able to force the state to pass a law making 243 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 2: it a crime to teach Darrow's cornerstone theory in public schools. 244 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: And it was based on the premise that, oh, my goodness, 245 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 2: evolution conflicts with the story of man's creation as described 246 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: in the Bible. It does not. They are actually harmonious, 247 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: and theologians now accept even our current pope accepts that 248 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: evolution and creationism are harmonious, and in fact, po Francis 249 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 2: has said public that evolution presupposes creationism, which was Darrow's 250 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 2: argument all along. So Darrow is sitting in his office 251 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 2: in Chicago and he opens the news Fabruary. He reads 252 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: they've arrested and charged this young school teacher, John Scopes, 253 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: for teaching evolution down in Dayton, Tennessee. And he also 254 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: sees that his former friend and current nemesis, William Jennings 255 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: Bryan has joined the prosecution team. Bryant was so gratified 256 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: with the laws he got passed that he decided he 257 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: was going to help convict Scopes. And Darrow's sitting there 258 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: and he's fuming, and he's incensed. He sees this for 259 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: what it is, a horrific intrusion on individual rights and 260 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: free speech and academic autonomy and education, and he immediately 261 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 2: volunteers for free to defend John Scope, and that commenced 262 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: the Trial of the Century. 263 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: Put the trial in context for a second. It's in 264 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 1: a very small town. The judge himself is a very 265 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: devout preacher. I mean, everything has sort of stacked against 266 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: the defendant. 267 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: Wouldn't you say, oh, absolutely. There's a chapter it's entitled 268 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: Walking into the Lion's Den, which is borrowed from the Bible, 269 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 2: and Daryl realized almost immediately that he was facing overwhelming odds. 270 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 2: He was taking on popular opinion. The courtroom was packed 271 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: with Brian's supporters, the jury was composed entirely of devoted 272 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 2: church members, only one of whom said he had ever 273 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: heard or knew anything about evolution. Three people on the 274 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: jury had read no other book except for the Bible. 275 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 2: And the presiding judge, believe it or not, was an 276 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: ordained minister who had been vocal in critical about evolution, 277 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 2: absolutely the worst person to preside over the case. But 278 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: it was happening right in front of Darrow's eyes. And 279 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 2: the judge's rulings from the bench consistently favored the prosecution 280 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 2: against Darrow, and at one point Daryl questions the judge's 281 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:23,560 Speaker 2: fairness and is immediately held in criminal contempt. So here 282 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 2: we have Daryl. He realizes what's happening. He's down, but 283 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: he's not defeated, and so he does something truly extraordinary 284 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: in this very daring and consequential move. He does something 285 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: that you never see in a court room. The defense 286 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 2: attorney calls the prosecutor, William Jennies Brian to the witness 287 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 2: stand as an expert on the Bible. And Darrow knew Brian, 288 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 2: and he knew that Brian's ego was as big as 289 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: all outdoors and that he couldn't resist taking the witness 290 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 2: stand and showing off to his devote followers and the judges. 291 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: You can't do that. You can't, mister Daryl, call the prosecutor, 292 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 2: and Brian stands up and says, I have nothing to fear. 293 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 2: I want to take the witness stance. So that Jest says, 294 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 2: all right, well okay, but I'll tell you what this courtroom. 295 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 2: I'm worried. There are so many people in the second 296 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: floor courtroom, and it was a cavernous courtroom. He said, 297 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 2: I'm worried about the floor collapsing. I'm going to move 298 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: this trial outdoors to the stage leftover from Fourth of 299 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 2: July festivity. So I mean they move it outdoors WGN Radio. 300 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: This was the first trial ever broadcast live to a 301 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: nationwide audience. They quickly move all the microphones, they rewire, 302 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 2: they go outside. There's this huge platform and I show 303 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: the photograph in my book. There are thirty eight photographs, 304 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:57,719 Speaker 2: but the most iconic photograph is Darryl versus Brian sitting 305 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: on this elevated stage and you can see thousands of 306 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: people looking on, and they were all Brian supporters, and 307 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: that would soon change with a cross examination by Darryl. 308 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: Do you think it a dramatically less impactful Had Brian 309 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: not jumped in. 310 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,359 Speaker 2: There would have been a very quick conviction of John 311 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: scopes the value of putting Brian on the witness stand, 312 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 2: and again Darrow knew that Brian wanted to do it. 313 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: Daryl's strategy was to try to show that Brian's interpretation 314 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 2: of the Bible, that everything in it should be taken 315 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 2: literally as written, was in violation of common sense and 316 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 2: science and vast amounts of education and archaeology and paleontology 317 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: and everything we know about civilizations. You cannot accept the 318 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 2: Bible as literal. The Bible is a wonderful book, and 319 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 2: it teaches us important moral lessons, and many of them 320 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: are told, mister speaker, as I think you know, through 321 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: parables in allegory. The Bible is filled with them. So 322 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,679 Speaker 2: one by one Daryl starts going through some of the 323 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 2: most prominent passages of the Bible about man's creation, Jonah 324 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 2: and the whale, Joshua making the sun stand still, Adam 325 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 2: and Eve in the garden of Eden, and the talking serpent, 326 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: and so forth, and how the Bible would have you 327 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 2: believe that civilization is only six thousand years old, and 328 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 2: of course we know it's many many thousands of years 329 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: before that, huge civilizations we're living on Earth. And Brian 330 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: had no good answer for any of this. And because 331 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 2: Darrow was such a wonderful trial attorney with inexorable logic, 332 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 2: he slowly but surely dismantled Brian. And the crowd that 333 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: was so in favor of Brian, who expected to hear 334 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: these logical explanations in defense of the Bible and creationism, 335 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 2: suddenly realized, is this man a fraud? Have we been 336 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 2: listening to the wrong man and paying attention to the 337 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: wrong people the fundamentalists? And Brian had doggedly clung to 338 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: this righteousness that he mistakenly abscribed to virtue, and he 339 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: had tried to force his religious ideology on others by 340 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 2: enacting this law. And I describe what happens at the 341 00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 2: very end. The crowd turns against Brian. They're laughing at him, 342 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: and the laughter only inflames Brian's panic, And at the 343 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 2: end the judge bails out. Brian slams down a gavel 344 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 2: and says enough. Trial has ended for the day, and 345 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 2: the crowd of Brian supporters converged on darylw not Brian, 346 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: to congratulate Daryl, the man they had so hated because 347 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 2: he's an agnostic. They're actually saying, thank you, You've changed 348 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: our minds. And Daryl looks back and there's Brian, a 349 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 2: lonely figure, nobody around him, a broken man. And it 350 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: was just five days later that Brian is still in Dayton, Tennessee, 351 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: still hoping to resurrect his shattered, tattered image, and he 352 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 2: lays down for a nap, a broken man, and he 353 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: never wakes up. And I show a picture in the 354 00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 2: book of Brian in his casket, flag draped, being loaded 355 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: onto a pullman car and a train carrying him to 356 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 2: his burial at Arlington National Cemetery just outside Washington, DC. 357 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: And so it was a very sad epitaph to a 358 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 2: once great statesman and a brilliant intellect who allowed his 359 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 2: own hubris and self righteousness to self destruct. 360 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: His whole notion of here's a guy who had been 361 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: the youngest person ever nominated to be presidential Canada by 362 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: a major party. He had dominated his party really from 363 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six on, very integral to Woodrow Wilson's success, 364 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: and here he is at the end of his career, 365 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: having gotten way out beyond his capabilities, and in a 366 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: sense being publicly crushed. I mean, in some ways, Brian 367 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: is an even more tragic figure than Scopes in terms 368 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: of this particular trial. 369 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: Yes, and the New York Times described this epic showdown 370 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: between Darrow and Brian, and I'm quoting here for the 371 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 2: New York Times back in nineteen twenty five, the most 372 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 2: amazing court scene in Anglo Saxon history. That statement still 373 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: stands today. I mean, the brilliant and devastating questioning of 374 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: Brian turned the tide in education historians. The fact is 375 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 2: that Daryl lost the case, but he won the battle. 376 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: What Darrow did shifted public opinion because people were listening 377 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: on the radio, They stayed home from work, they wanted 378 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 2: to hear what was going on. And all the major 379 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 2: newspapers that were there published these banner headlines and they 380 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 2: actually printed transcripts of the day's events so that people 381 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: could read it for themselves, and the public opinion dramatically shifted. 382 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: It spelled the beginning of the end for the kind 383 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 2: of religious intrusion that our Constitution forbids. And as I 384 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 2: write in the book, the wonders and benefits of science 385 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: became untethered, and free speech rights were saved and preserved, 386 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: and generations of Americans became Darrow's beneficiaries. And you know, 387 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,439 Speaker 2: some people say, wait a minute, trial of the century, Now, 388 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 2: that was the O. J. Simpson case, or the Leopold 389 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 2: and Loeb case, or the Chicago seven case, or the 390 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: Lindbergh kidnapping case. I mean, there are a lot of 391 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 2: famous cases, as you well know, mister speaker. And for example, 392 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: I covered the OJ. Simpson case in Los Angeles every 393 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: day for nine months. It pales in comparison to the 394 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: importance of the Scopes monkey trial, because as tragic a 395 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: case as it was in Los Angeles, it was a 396 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: murder case. And there are thousands of murder cases every 397 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 2: year in America. That was one of many. But this 398 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: trial in Dayton, Tennessee the trial of the century. It 399 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 2: truly was, because it was unique and so valued in 400 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: our society. 401 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: The ultimate impact went way beyond a trial. It reshaped 402 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,240 Speaker 1: the way the nation thought about censorship and the way 403 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: the nation thought about science. But at the same time, 404 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: not only was Brian ultimately deeply harmed by his experience, 405 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: it seems to me that John Scopes is also kind 406 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: of a loser in this experience, that he's sacrificed as 407 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 1: much because he ended up being a national figure when 408 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: he wasn't really ready for it. 409 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, he was an amiable, likable, shy twenty 410 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: five year old school teacher. He was mostly a coach 411 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: and he was just substitute teaching when he taught out 412 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: of the chapter on evolution from the textbook. And after 413 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 2: the trial he couldn't go anywhere without people badgering him. 414 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: He wanted to go to law school, move north and 415 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 2: tried going, but everybody expected him to be the next 416 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: Clarence Darrow, and the trial haunted him, and there were 417 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 2: people who hated him, and they let that be known. 418 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 2: And at one point in time Scopes decides, I have 419 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: to leave the country, and he does, and he moves 420 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: to South America and he becomes an alcoholic because he 421 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: is just so haunted by his role in this particular trial, 422 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: and he tossed aside his aspiration to become a lawyer 423 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: because he sat there and he watched Darrow and he 424 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 2: said to himself, I can never be Daryl. I can't 425 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: come close to being Daryl. There's a picture of him 426 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: two years after the Scopes trial, and he looks like 427 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 2: he's aged about forty or fifty years. It weighed so 428 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 2: heavily on him. Came an alcoholic, and he eventually recovered, 429 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: and he got married, and he was a gifted person. 430 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 2: He was a gifted writer. He eventually, in the nineteen 431 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 2: sixties writes a autobiography and it's beautiful pros and it 432 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: provides incredible insight into the trial. And I quote it 433 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: in our book because some of it is so incisive 434 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 2: and important what he had to say. But yeah, it 435 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 2: ruined his life. 436 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier the cavernous courtroom. Does it still exist? 437 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: Is that courthouse still there? 438 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 2: It does. I went there with my co author Don 439 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: Jeger about a couple of years ago. Now the courthouse 440 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 2: was closed at the time for renovations, but we met 441 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: with town leaders and one of them was the archivist, 442 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: and he said, look, I got a key, come along 443 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: with me, and he takes us over to the courthouse 444 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: and he's got a key. Let's a into the back door, 445 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 2: and he said, let me show you the courtroom. We 446 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 2: go upstairs and he and the town leaders join us, 447 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 2: and they explain to me that the courtroom is unchanged, 448 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: the exact same furniture, the same gallery seating, the benches 449 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 2: still there where the judge sat, slightly elevated platform where 450 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: the lawyers were Darrow and Brian were, and it's interesting 451 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 2: they're going to keep it that way. It has these beautiful, 452 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: huge picture windows, and you'll see it in some of 453 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: the photographs from nineteen twenty five that are high resolution 454 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 2: in my book. I obtained access to those in a 455 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: different archive, and you can see in some of the 456 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 2: photographs the newsreel cameras in the back of the courtroom, 457 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 2: and there was a plane waiting with the engine running 458 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: each day to fly the film to Chicago, where it 459 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 2: was immediately distributed in movie theaters everywhere, and Audio and 460 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: his flock to the movie houses to watch some of 461 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: the Trial of the century. So the courtiouse still stands, 462 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: and then laid out in that courtroom was an enormous book, leatherbound, 463 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 2: and he opened it up, and you have to wear 464 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: white cotton clothes because you know, it's pretty grittlin, so 465 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: you don't want to damage it. In Longhand are the 466 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: court reporter notes from the judges reporter, which I study. 467 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: And then we also obtained the original trial transcript, which 468 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: is nothing like the movie You Inherit the Wind, And 469 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 2: in fact, it is more riveting and fascinating than the movie. 470 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes fact is more astonishing than fiction, and this is 471 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: certainly a case of it. So the original trial transcript 472 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: is what I based the book on. 473 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: That's really remarkable. This trial had been set up to 474 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: test the whole concept of laws against teaching evolution. And 475 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: when Scopes has found guilty, he pays one hundred dollars fine, 476 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: which course was a lot more money back then, but 477 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: that was it. Each side had made their case and 478 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 1: the country had been decisively changed. 479 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: That's right. The Baltimore Sun volunteered to pay the one 480 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 2: hundred dollars fine for Scopes. Yeah. The funny thing is, 481 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 2: and I relate this in the book. Scopes was almost 482 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: a forgotten figure inside that courtroom during the trial proceedings. 483 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: He never spoke Darrow didn't want him to take the 484 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 2: witness stand. He'd get beat up by Brian and other 485 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: prosecutors and it would just make matters worth which is 486 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 2: pretty much consistent with the advice I used to give 487 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 2: my clients day off the witness stand. Scopes is sitting 488 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: there in the courtroom and he's watching all of this unfold, 489 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 2: and at the very end the judge forgets to allow 490 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: him to speak before sentencing, and one of the lawyers 491 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 2: on the prosecution side spoke up and said, er, honor right, 492 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: thank you've forgotten something. Under law, the defendant is allowed 493 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 2: to speak before sentencing. And Scopes stood up in a 494 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 2: very earnest, authentic way, and he said, this is an 495 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,000 Speaker 2: unjust law and I will continue to do everything in 496 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: my power to fight it. And he didn't really need to, because, 497 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: as I say, public opinion shifted so tremendously, so dramatically, 498 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: almost overnight, and the banning of books ended, and nobody 499 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 2: ever again in Tennessee or elsewhere was criminally charged with 500 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 2: teaching evolution. So Scopes may have not uttered a word 501 00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: until just a couple of sentences at the end, but 502 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: his courage in standing up against an unjust law speaks 503 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 2: volume about his integrity. 504 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: Greg. I want to thank you for joining me. Your 505 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: new book, The Trial of the Century, is both a 506 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: fascinating read and an important step in how America evolved 507 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 1: the way it has, and I encourage all our listeners 508 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: to get a copy of your book, and we're going 509 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: to link to it on our show page. But thank 510 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us. 511 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 2: Well, it's been my pleasure. I'm grateful to have had 512 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 2: the opportunity to talk to you about it, and I 513 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 2: am looking forward, by the way to your new book, 514 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 2: which is coming out very very shortly as well. Your 515 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 2: books are always a great read, and I always learn 516 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 2: a lot from those books. 517 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, March to the Majority, which is the story of 518 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: how we did the Contract with America and how we 519 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: got Bill Clinton to sign a lot of conservative reforms, 520 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: comes out in the next few weeks, and I appreciate 521 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: you noticing it. As fellow authors, we understand that you 522 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: have to actually talk about your books, not just write them. 523 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: You have had personally an amazing career and this book 524 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 1: is a big addition to it. 525 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, mister speaker. 526 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,520 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest, Greg Jarrett. You can get 527 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Trial of 528 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: the Century on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 529 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gaywis three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 530 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 1: executive producer is Gyernzi Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 531 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 532 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingish three sixty. If 533 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Nutsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 534 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 535 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 536 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld, consigner for my three freeweekly 537 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: columns at gagrishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 538 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.