1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Body Doubts with Joseph Scott More. 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 2: Some things in life are just absolutely tedious. I love that, 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 2: and I love that word. I absolutely love that word tedious. 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 2: It's such an all encompassing phrase. You know. It goes to, 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: you know, taking a lot of time to do something, 6 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 2: or the work that you're having to do is so 7 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: overwhelming just by sheer numbers. That boredom sets in those 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: sorts of things. And that happens a lot in investigations 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 2: because you've got so much data coming in that you're 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 2: trying to process it, and you're trying to, you know, 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 2: hang your proverbial, investigative and scientific hat on it. Sometimes 12 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: it's hard to really mold it into something. It's almost 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 2: like working with super wet clay. Today, I want to 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: talk about a case that is tedious for many reasons. 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: I think one of the elements of tedium that comes 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: along with this is time. Another element is confusion. And 17 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 2: I think finally this idea of tedium is demonstrated through 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: the fact that the perpetrator in this case has had 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: over eighty charges filed against her. Oh I forgot to 20 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: mention something. She killed her girlfriend and chopped her up 21 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: into little bits. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 22 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: bodybags now, David, I don't think I could be an 23 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: airline pilot. And this is other than the fact I've 24 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: got bad eyes and I'm listen. I will spend time. 25 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 2: I will literally spend time on utah on YouTube watching 26 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: people land and take off. I'm fascinated by it. You 27 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,799 Speaker 2: know where they go into these different locations around the world. 28 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: You live through it vicariously, and these people are incredible 29 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: as far as I'm concerned, as far as technicians and 30 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 2: all that stuff, but it is so incredibly tedious. Everything 31 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: you have to do and check and you want them 32 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 2: to do it and check it. Trust me, as a passenger, 33 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: I do because of I don't know gravity, and so 34 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: I want that to happen. But you know, you see 35 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: what they do, and you know how that kind of 36 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: translates into into a safe landing or a successful landing. 37 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: When you have certain cases in forensics, it's kind of 38 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 2: like that, you know, what what boxes do you tick? 39 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: As the brit say what boxes do you tick? Have 40 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: you ticked all of the correct boxes? Are you paying 41 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: attention to every bit of detail? And the case we 42 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 2: have today it really caught my eye because it's so 43 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 2: involved in Oh my lord, it took so long to 44 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 2: come to a conclusion. 45 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 3: On You know, Nicole Austin went missing in two thousand 46 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 3: and seven, Gone, just gone, and her mom didn't know 47 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: where she was, you know, her loved ones didn't know 48 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 3: where she was. But she's twenty four years old, she's 49 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 3: from New York City. And I was looking this over 50 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: because I kept trying to figure out what was really 51 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: going on. You talked about the tedious, and I thought 52 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: there was a time when I was researching this that 53 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: I went, wait a minute, Okay, we have a We 54 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: have Nicole Alston whose family knows she's gone, but nobody 55 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 3: else seems to know. And the reason is her girlfriend, 56 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: Angel Thompson, who was also twenty four at the time. 57 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: She's forty two now. Angel Thompson had been living her 58 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: life as Nicole Alston and Nicole Alston still existed on paper. 59 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: Nicole Alston was still getting food stamps, she was getting 60 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 3: Social Security benefits, she was getting Section eight housing, she 61 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 3: was getting a lot of stuff. Nicole Allston was so 62 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 3: I guess her family just thought, well, maybe she just. 63 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: Doesn't want to talk to us. 64 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 4: Or something. 65 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 3: There wasn't a big search, you know. But in two 66 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: thousand and seven, the fire department was called in Troop County, 67 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 3: Georgia because there were these bags burning along a rural road. 68 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 3: Now I know you know Troup County, don't. 69 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: You, Yes, I do, Hugians in particular. 70 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, you tell me. Okay, where is that in relation 71 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: to Atlanta? 72 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? People think when they think Georgia, unfortunately they think 73 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 2: Atlanta and Atlanta is not some total of all of Georgia. 74 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: Georgia is a big place. It's one of the largest 75 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: states east of the Mississippi. Matter of fact, fun fact, 76 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 2: in the words of Paul Blart, fun fact, the most 77 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: counties of any state east of the Mississippi. As a 78 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: matter of fact, tiny county, So lots and lots of them. Anyway, 79 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: I digress. So if you go south to southwest of 80 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: Atlanta along the eighty. 81 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: Five corridor, Okay. 82 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: Like you're heading to Montgomery out of Atlanta. That's the 83 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 2: area that we're talking about, and it's you know, Hogansville 84 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 2: is probably well Atlanta traffic. Who can measure that? Yeah, 85 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: I'd say you're probably at least an hour hour and 86 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 2: a half with Atlanta traffic on a cod day to 87 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 2: make it to Atlanta or back up around the airport. 88 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, all right, Well then that gives us an 89 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 3: idea of where we are. And if you continued on 90 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 3: eighty five, you could end up in Montgomery, Alabama. 91 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you could in Auburn and all those other 92 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: places in between. 93 00:05:56,080 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: Well, these bags were found on fire. Fire department comes 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 3: out there, and of course, you know, you put out 95 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 3: a fire with then they start looking in the bags, 96 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 3: you know what's going on with these bags? And well 97 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 3: what they found. The fire department found a chopped up body. Yeah, 98 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,799 Speaker 3: but but this chopped up body was missing some important 99 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 3: parts missing, the head, the feet, the hands, all missing. 100 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 3: So you've got parts of a body in two bags 101 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 3: that are now burned. And that's it, Joe, that's it. 102 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: And in two thousand and seven, I know that when 103 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: we look back around that eighteen years ago, we had 104 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 3: we'd come a long way with DNA, we'd come along 105 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 3: way with forensic testing and things, but not far enough. 106 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 2: No, not as far as we have today. We can 107 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: put such a fine point on things today compared to 108 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 2: it was literally and I can't believe I'm saying this 109 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: about two thousand and seven. It was literally a different world, right, 110 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 2: It truly was. From a scientific perspective, moves at light speed. 111 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: My students at Jacksonville State. When I'm lecturing to them now, Dave, 112 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: I'll frame things like so old, I feel like I 113 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: ought to be sitting up on a mountain with a 114 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: long gray beard and birds living in my beard. I'll 115 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: say things like you're going to behold wonders in forensic 116 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: science that I could not even begin to imagine, you know, 117 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 2: moving on into the future, and just like back in 118 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, there are things back then that 119 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: I could not have visualized now in the world that 120 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: we exist in now. And so we make leaps like 121 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 2: that in all high end scientific endeavor we do, or 122 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: at least I think scientists and research sciences certainly hope 123 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: that we do. But in this particular case, yeah, you 124 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: had a lot, You had a lot to go on 125 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: as far as a body, though it was I don't 126 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: know how it was ordered. I could use particulated uh, 127 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:02,239 Speaker 2: and it has suffered great heat relate trauma obviously post 128 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: mortem heat related artifact. But yet, what do you literally, 129 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: I always use this phrase, what are you going to 130 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: hang your hat on, because if you don't have a 131 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: database to go to, all you know is that you 132 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: can probably surmise depend upon the pieces you have, you 133 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: can surmise race. If you have a dark skinned individual, 134 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: you can take a shot at that, if you have 135 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,119 Speaker 2: any bony elements that are left behind. There are certain 136 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: elements in our skeletal structure, like once you strip all 137 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 2: of the tissue off of which is hard to do 138 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 2: with a burn case. Unlike like if you have somebody 139 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 2: that just goes through standard decomposition. I say standard, right, 140 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: you know there're a standardized composition, but there is there 141 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: really is. If you have a body that's just laid 142 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 2: out on the ground and exposed to the elements, it's 143 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: a lot easier to do and they become skeletonized. It's 144 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: a lot easier to do aging and that sort of 145 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: thing on that. 146 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 3: But now the same problem with not problem, but with 147 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 3: flies and things like that in a burned and burned 148 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 3: remains that you would have in non burned. 149 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: Yeah that interesting. Flies can take certain things away, but 150 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 2: they're not necessarily going to affect a skeletal remains. Now, 151 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: which could do I think and I know that you 152 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: could even with burn cases, you can still understand the 153 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 2: life cycle of the insects from an entomological standpoint that 154 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: are showing up, you know, because they're at a predictable rate. 155 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 2: We talk about the life cycle of insects showing up, 156 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: so that data would still be viable. However, what could 157 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: be compromised are say, for instance, you're talking about a 158 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: victim here that is twenty four years old, if you're 159 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 2: missing certain elements, like you think about bone fusion, Like 160 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: when we hit adulthood, our bones stop growing. Well, some 161 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,319 Speaker 2: people hit it earlier, some people hit it later. And 162 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 2: if you're missing certain elements you think about I think 163 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: they're called the epiphus ill plates that you know, kind 164 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: of fuse together and at that point you're not going 165 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 2: to grow anymore. So if you're missing some of those elements, 166 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: that can kind of throw you off. And here's the 167 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: other thing in the initial the initial search in this case, David, 168 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: they don't have a head. Now that's problematic, and it's 169 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: problematic if you're trying to identify somebody. I think probably 170 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: the most striking thing for me is the teeth, because 171 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: teeth are something that they tell such a tale about 172 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: the person in their life. Most people don't think about 173 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: what their teeth or could literally be saying. Scientifically, we 174 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 2: look for things like wear patterns on teeth, like what 175 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 2: side it And I do this with my students as well. 176 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: I'll say, okay, everybody, close your eyes when I teach 177 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: my odentology section, close your eyes and take a tip 178 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: of your tongue and run it across the surface of 179 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 2: your teeth and try to determine what side of your 180 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: mouth do you favor when you chew? Well the lines 181 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,719 Speaker 2: share people, they favor the right side because there will 182 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: be as much wear. Now, my teeth have a lot 183 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 2: more wear than saying eighteen year old freshman student. But 184 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: they get an idea, you know, like the canine is 185 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: no longer sharp, it's kind of worn down. Some people 186 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: grind their teeth, but not just that. But you're thinking 187 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: about the eruption of teeth. You know, even twelve year molars. 188 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: Have they erupted? Have they not erupted? You think about 189 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: wisdom teeth. Are the wisdom teeth still there? Because if 190 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 2: the wisdom teeth are still there all right, then I 191 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 2: can exclude everybody else in the world that has had 192 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: their wisdom teeth extracted, and conversely you can do the 193 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: same thing. You can also learn a lot about their 194 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 2: dentition as far as how well the body has been 195 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: or not the body, but how well they took care 196 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: of themselves in life. Do you have restorations, do you 197 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: have cavitated areas in the teeth? All those sorts of 198 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: things come into place. So you're missing ahead. That's one 199 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 2: of the biggest elements here. And isn't it interesting, Dave 200 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: that they took the hands off? What was your thought 201 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: about that when you saw that? I mean, I got 202 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 2: to ask you what was your first first inclination there? 203 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: My thing was why the feet? 204 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: I get the hands, and I get ahead from an 205 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: identification standpoint, But the feet. That's what got me because 206 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 3: again we've done that. You know, you cut somebody's hands off, 207 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: you don't have fingerprints? Take the head off? 208 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that people do that because 209 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: they they think back to babies having their feet printed. 210 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: You know that there's a card out there somewhere that's 211 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: going to have a footprint, and can you marry that up? 212 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: You know with a print. I've never seen any kind 213 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: of empirical study that you couldn't it should be unique. 214 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: But I got to tell you, person, I've never been 215 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: involved with the case that involved that type of foot printing. Okay, difference. 216 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: You know when you talk about crime scene and you're 217 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: talking about, well, there are footprints that are left behind 218 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: that could be shoe prints, it could be footprints, those 219 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: sorts of things. But as far as using a print, 220 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 2: and I know that it's happened, somebody's out there saying, well, 221 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: that's so and so he's working. I've worked these cases. 222 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 2: We've seen hundreds of these. Okay, God bless you go 223 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: in peace. I'm glad that you have, But in my experience, 224 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: I never have. And I think, but you have to 225 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 2: admit that people think about the footprint that they take 226 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: of a baby when they're little, and they're thinking that's 227 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 2: going to be an identifiable landmark that they can go 228 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 2: back to whoever this person was that's doing this. They're thinking, Okay, 229 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: if I decapitate them and if I take their hands 230 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: and their feet, it's going to diminish, it's going to 231 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 2: diminish the authorities of ability to get them identified. Because 232 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 2: you know why, because in the back of this perpetrator's mind, 233 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 2: what they were thinking is that those hands, those feet, 234 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 2: in that head, they now belong to me, and I'm 235 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: going to. 236 00:13:51,760 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 4: Have this identity. 237 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: Imagine yourself as a guy that's working at the local well, 238 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: I guess you could. You don't have to be volunteer, 239 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: but you could be a guy that's sitting around the 240 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: firehouse in rural Troop County, Georgia, and you get a call, 241 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 2: got a call out, and this is the way the 242 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: call would probably run. They might even say, we've got 243 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 2: a brush fire on the side of the road, and 244 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 2: maybe it did catch some stuff on fire. And you know, 245 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: for firefighters, God bless them all. I love all the 246 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: people in the fire service. I think they're genuinely the 247 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: coolest people around. They roll out. Can you imagine being 248 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: the kid that's on the hose and you're sprinting this 249 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: thing down and all of a sudden, you see this. 250 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: Here's the problem. They're not very specific about the type 251 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: of bag. I'm assuming, assuming you know what they say 252 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: about assuming I'm assuming that it's a plastic bag, and 253 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 2: you've sprints this thing down, You've knocked the fire down, 254 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 2: and then just out of curiosity, you know that this 255 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 2: is where the fire started. Do you know how they 256 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 2: know that, Dave, because it's very logical. It's I love 257 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: talking about fire and people that work in I think 258 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: arson investigators are some of the most incredible forensic scientists, 259 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 2: unsung forensic scientists. By the way, out there wherever there's 260 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: the most damage. So, and it makes sense, doesn't it. 261 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: Wherever the fire has been burning the longest, that's going 262 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: to be your point of origin. And you can kind 263 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: of take that to the bank relative to is it 264 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: a structure or out in the field. Okay, So can 265 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: you imagine being this kid that kind of knocked this 266 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 2: fire down and he sees this big blob in the 267 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: middle of the road, he walks over there. He might 268 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: you know, he's got his firefighter gloves on, he's got 269 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: his big boots on, and he might just bump it 270 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: with his foot or maybe peel it away, and the 271 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: next thing you know, you're looking at a hunk of 272 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 2: human flesh. He imagine, what's surprised that would be out 273 00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 2: there in rural rural Troop County and Dave, fire, according 274 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: to what we're seeing, was started literally on. 275 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: The side of the road. Yeah, that tells a lot 276 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: about the perpetrator here. It does and. 277 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 3: When I was first going over this, trying to find 278 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: out everything I could, and one thing that has hit me, 279 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 3: you've me talking about your students. You realize now that 280 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 3: a freshman coming out out of high school and going 281 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 3: to for your university would have been born in two 282 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 3: thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. Thank you for 283 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 3: I just thought i'd throw that out there because in 284 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 3: my head, I was thinking this is a long time ago. 285 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: It's a short time ago. You know. 286 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 3: Well, as you're teaching this to your students, you're gonna 287 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: have some going in there before. 288 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: I was born. 289 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: Listen, let me tell you this one aside. I've got 290 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: students right now that are actually thinking former students that 291 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: are actually thinking, gosh, when can I retire? 292 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: Wow? Bless your. 293 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: Well. 294 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 3: All right, let's get forward on this one, because you 295 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 3: do have what kind of person okay, because they have 296 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 3: dumped somebody because you don't kill yourself, and I guess 297 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 3: I was trying to think, is there a possible way 298 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 3: you could hack yourself up and at the last minute, 299 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 3: like the match, die after you you know, this is 300 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 3: an obvious. 301 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: Death. 302 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: The very the very best thing would be mutilation, abuse 303 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: of a corpse. You would have that if you were 304 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: to find somebody you didn't know on your property and 305 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 3: you were trying to get rid of them kind of thing, 306 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 3: which is so stupid. I mean, I'm just trying to 307 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: think of any way possible. 308 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: It does happen. I mean, we've had cases where people 309 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: have panicked and they've had a body around, and so 310 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 2: they've tried to get rid of the body because they 311 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: don't want to be associated with. It doesn't necessarily mean 312 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,960 Speaker 2: that they kill them. However, that does in fact happen. 313 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,239 Speaker 3: And that's kind of why we're being very careful with 314 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 3: the story in LA with D four v. 315 00:17:57,840 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: D Burke. 316 00:17:58,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: Thank you. 317 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, brother, And so as we move forward 318 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 3: in this one, though, it actually we come at it 319 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 3: from the ending, because as Joe you mentioned at the 320 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 3: very beginning, that we have had an indictment, so we 321 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 3: do know what has taken place, and we know who 322 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,719 Speaker 3: is accused of doing this, and we know what transpired. 323 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: So we know our victim, Nicole Austin, she was twenty 324 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 3: four years old when she was hacked up into pieces, 325 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 3: her head, hands and feet removed, and her remains and 326 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 3: I mean that literally her remains were set on fire. 327 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 3: We don't know where the head, the hands, and the 328 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 3: feet are at this moment. I don't know if we 329 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 3: ever will, right, I would imagine the family would like 330 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: to know. 331 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 2: And oh yeah, you know, you. 332 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 3: Would think if anything good could come out of this, 333 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: that the suspect here might say something. But to go 334 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 3: to this, you mentioned the fire guy showing up and 335 00:18:57,960 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: you know, put out the fire first, and you go 336 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,360 Speaker 3: to kick the and you see a leg an arm, 337 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, the human arm. The human leg 338 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 3: is going to look like nothing else, you know, and 339 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 3: it's robust. 340 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 2: It's robust as well. It's it's a big, big piece 341 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: of anatomy that would be really hard, really hard to 342 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 2: kind of disguise or hide. 343 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: You're not going to come business with somebody's dog. 344 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's it's so very distinctive. And you know, 345 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: this is the I've heard some reports that have said 346 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 2: a bag, and I've heard other reports that say bags. 347 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, bags. There were two bags, okay, yeah, according to 348 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: the police report. 349 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm thinking, well, if you've got a 350 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 2: couple of bags and you're doing this, so you've it 351 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 2: would stand a reason. Since this is along a roadside, 352 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: right this this means that the person wanted to put 353 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:03,120 Speaker 2: as much distance between themselves and this event as possible. 354 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 2: I know that seems rather obvious, but just let me 355 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: feed this lot of logic to you. Here I was considering. 356 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: So you're going to go to the trouble of you know, 357 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 2: dismembering a body, you bag it up. Now we know 358 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: that other pieces are missing, so the assumption would be 359 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: that they are dispersed. Now what I'm hearing right now 360 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: is roughly thirteen pieces, all right, that they have found, 361 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 2: all right, So we don't know if that's concentrically contained 362 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 2: to this location or it's on kind of an outlied, 363 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: outlying area. But here's the weird thing. You go to 364 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 2: all this trouble to do this, and then you're going 365 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 2: to pull over on the side of the road. You're 366 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: going to have to use some kind of accelerant because 367 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 2: as you and I have studied, you know, for low 368 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: these many years now, you know that bodies don't burn 369 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 2: real well, they're not great fuel. So you have to 370 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: initiate this fire. So you're going to get out of 371 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: your car at an intersection, take these pieces out, place 372 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 2: them on the side of the road. In plane view, 373 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: of anybody and everybody, douse them with an accelerant, put 374 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 2: fire to it, get back in your car and head out. 375 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 2: Why would you do that? Why not? Why not tramp 376 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: off in the woods even ten yards or twenty yards 377 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 2: and do this and no one would be the wiser, 378 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 2: particularly in the moment. I just it kind of baffles me, 379 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 2: you know when I think about think about why why 380 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 2: this course was taken? And still to this day, we 381 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: do know who the victim is. But Dave, I got 382 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: to tell you, because the head's missing, we don't we 383 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 2: don't have a cause of death. We don't have death 384 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 2: in this case. 385 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 3: So we know we've got body parts in a couple 386 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 3: of bags that are lit on fire, and the fire 387 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 3: department is called to come and put it out. We 388 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 3: know it's a rural area trip Downty Georgia. Now the 389 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 3: base that we know, Joe, you're going to get called 390 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 3: out there and uh, we're going to try to figure 391 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 3: out what happened. And you really have to figure out 392 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,719 Speaker 3: on top of what happened, But who is this because 393 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 3: that could lead you to something. And yet if you 394 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 3: don't have a head, hands feet, and you've got what's 395 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 3: left is burned. Where are you going to start with 396 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 3: the identification process. 397 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 2: The only thing you can do, Dave, I would think, 398 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: is well, you're going to Okay, here's how it would 399 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: break down. We're going to look for anything superficial that 400 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: we can identify. You know what, you know what my 401 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: first stop would be on this torso. 402 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 4: Or what. 403 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right on the money there, you score man. 404 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to look for tattoos and I am going 405 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: to see if any of them marry up with any 406 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,880 Speaker 2: particular style. And I'm also going to see if there 407 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: are initials attached to this in any way, anything that 408 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 2: is a specific identifier. I've had a number of cases, 409 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 2: and I know people have got these kind of tattoos 410 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: that are walking around out there where they've had someone 411 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: that they dearly loved and they have their dearly departed 412 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: state of death, you know, like tattooed on their arm 413 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: and I'll say I will always love you or things 414 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 2: like that, And you think that that's rather innocuous, But Dave, 415 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 2: that's a piece of information I would not have had previously. 416 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that happened this case, but you're going 417 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: to go over every bit of this body from stem 418 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: to stern to try to pick up on that. Here's 419 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: the problem, because you're talking about subjecting this body to 420 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: incredible heat. I think folks would say, well, would it 421 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: be possible to find a tattoo on a burned surface? 422 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 2: My answer is yes, it would be. But this gets 423 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 2: tedious here because you have to literally scrape and peel 424 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 2: through that top burned layer so that you can get 425 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 2: down to the dermos. Now, it all depends on how 426 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: badly the dermist layer is earned not in every case, 427 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 2: or you're going to see tattoos completely burned away a 428 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 2: lot of it. Well, it's all depended upon the intensity 429 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: of the fire and how long that tissue was exposed 430 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: to fire as to whether or not this thing is 431 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 2: going to curl up and disappear and vanish. That would 432 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,639 Speaker 2: be the first place. The other place I'm going to 433 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 2: look over the course of the body. Now they're saying 434 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: that we have a torso. Okay, that's what's being implied 435 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 2: at least no head, no hands, no feet. But if 436 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: I have a torso and I can surmise that this 437 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 2: is a female, guess where I'm going. I'm going to 438 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 2: the plumbing. At that point in time. I'm going to 439 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 2: see if there's a uterus, I'm going to see if 440 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: there's ovaries. I'm going to see if there's any evidence 441 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: that this individual has given birth at some point in time, 442 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 2: and there are examinations that we can do to make 443 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 2: that determination. And I want to do a deep dive 444 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 2: relative to that because those are specific identifiers, any kind 445 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: of last augmentation on the body, breast, implants, anything like that. 446 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: And also here's the other thing talking about surgeries. You know, 447 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 2: fire is fire, but what can be resisted by fire 448 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: or stainless steel, pins, plates, surgical steel, all that stuff. 449 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: So this gets really complex. The first thing you have 450 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: to do is take the remains that you have, and 451 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 2: they would have done this any way in any kind 452 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 2: of fire death. They're going to thoroughly X ray this body, 453 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: and if there's anything on that X ray, that radiograph 454 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 2: that is radio opaque, any kind of metallic bit that's there, 455 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: it's going to stand out, and you want to target 456 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 2: that area. You have to be very specific because sometimes 457 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 2: X rays can be deceiving. Okay, because when you have 458 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: fire remains, it's amazing, Dave. You'll see pins, buttons, zippers, 459 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: all kinds of things will appear on the x ray 460 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 2: because the person might still be clothed or partially closed 461 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 2: clothes are not burned away. I've found zippers on the 462 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: backs of people when you shoot the X ray because 463 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: you couldn't really orient the thing, you didn't really know 464 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 2: what you were looking at. All kinds of things pop up. 465 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:18,719 Speaker 2: We've even found spent projectiles in burned remains, and that's 466 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 2: something that does happen. I've found broken knife tips in 467 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: burned remains. That's why you always do an X ray first, 468 00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: so that you can kind of catalog the stuff as 469 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: you're walking your way through it. But they would have 470 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: had a monumental task on their hand, and if this 471 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: was in Troup County, Georgia, her remains would not have 472 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 2: gone to the Troop County corner. They don't have a 473 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 2: corner that would do an autopsy. Her remains would be 474 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 2: transferred almost an hour and forty five minute drive over 475 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: to GBI headquarters where they have the State Medical Examiner's 476 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 2: office there. So you're not going to have like an 477 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: EMMY investigator that's out there. You might have a GBI 478 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 2: agent that'll show up. You'll have the corner that's there. 479 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 2: They're going to take a look and then they're just 480 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 2: going to load this into the back of the van 481 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: and they're going to take it out to GBI headquarters 482 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 2: and do the examination out there. Dave, I was reading 483 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 2: in an article about this case, and I got to 484 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: tell you it's I hate to hear this term, but 485 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: in the in the article. In the article, and I'll 486 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,640 Speaker 2: give credit to the article, it was it was written 487 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 2: and it's posted on Long Crime Network website. They refer 488 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 2: to this victim, uh, to this poor woman that lost 489 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: her life, refer to her as a cash cow. When 490 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 2: you begin to think about what has happened with this woman, 491 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:07,520 Speaker 2: the end that she met, isn't that it's so dehumanizing 492 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: to think that. It's not that the article is necessarily inaccurate, 493 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 2: it's just the fact that that's what this poor victim 494 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:22,719 Speaker 2: had become, Dave yea cash Just imagine that your family 495 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: thinks that you're alive out there somewhere, but they've never 496 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: made any effort to contact you or reach out. Maybe 497 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 2: they had, but it's kind of sounding thin to say 498 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 2: the least. They just think that you're out there, still 499 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: existing in the ether somewhere and you're not. You've been gone, 500 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 2: You've been gone for decades now, you just poof vanish 501 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: and then in death you refer to as a cash cow. 502 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 2: How horrible is. 503 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: That, you know the I'm glad you brought that up, Okay, 504 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: because I think far too often the world of crime 505 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: coverage today loses some of its humanity and we forget 506 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 3: that we're dealing with people like Okay, cash cow might 507 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 3: be an appropriate term if you're discussing it with others 508 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 3: in the crime world. But if you're the mother, grandmother 509 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 3: of the victim who didn't know, you know, what it 510 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 3: be out, what became of their daughter, granddaughter, you know, 511 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 3: to see that would be shocking, It would be upsetting 512 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 3: and more than anything else, you don't know. They might 513 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 3: have been burning a candle every night for the last 514 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: eighteen years, wondering when are we going to hear from Nicole? 515 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 3: Why have we not heard from Nicole? So all that 516 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 3: aside Nicole Alston was murdered. I'm gonna take that back, 517 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 3: because I don't know that she was murdered, Joe. I 518 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 3: don't know that. I do know that her body was 519 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 3: dismembered and burned, and what we have learned now. And 520 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 3: this is why I really get down to the DNA 521 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: of this Joe, because I can tell you after the fact. Once, 522 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 3: once the investigation was able, because they couldn't identify the remains, 523 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 3: didn't know who it was. They did not, I say 524 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 3: they It isn't like we found the remains on the 525 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 3: side of the road. We called, hey, is anybody missing? 526 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 3: Somebody without it? You know, they actually did a real 527 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 3: investigative dive, tried to figure out what was going on here, 528 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: and couldn't. They did not have the they didn't have 529 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 3: what they needed to actually identify the person. Without being 530 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 3: able to identify who it is, then you don't even 531 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 3: know where to start with the investigation. It starts with 532 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: knowing who's dead. And so they worked on it hit 533 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: a dead end. The case went cold. But as many 534 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 3: of the cases that we have worked on over the 535 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 3: last four hundred and ninety nine episodes or so, DNA 536 00:30:54,040 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: genetic genealogy, the forensics actually identified the remains without hands, 537 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 3: without feet, without a head. I'm thinking the hair that 538 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 3: was gone was there any because we had a story, 539 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: you know, we had a case the other day where 540 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: we were talking about hair three decades old hair was 541 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 3: an identifier, and here we don't have a head. I mean, 542 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 3: this is really something I'm thinking, how in the world 543 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 3: where do you start to identify? 544 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, the thing the cool thing about this day, if 545 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 2: you I'm not being disrespectfuble, I'm just saying from a 546 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: scientific standpoint one of the things that this is not 547 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 2: like we have a body that's been moldering in the woods, okay, 548 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: and we're down the skeletal remains and we don't know 549 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 2: if we're going to be able to retrieve anything. You 550 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 2: know that fire sometimes helps, do you know that? And 551 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 2: the reason learned that from you? 552 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: I had no idea. I'm not kiding Joe. 553 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 3: I used to think, like, we did episodes of this 554 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 3: where somebody lit a fire in the house to cover 555 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 3: up a crime. 556 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: I thought, sounds like a great idea, you know. 557 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 3: And I remember one episode we did and you it 558 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 3: was a long episode because I couldn't quit listening to you. 559 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: I was like, dude, what what do. 560 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: You mean They set the fire to get rid of everything, 561 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 3: and all they did was like freeze it in time. 562 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you really do, because okay, think of it this 563 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: way if you uh, and this is really horrible to 564 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: think about. But just to understand if you're think about 565 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 2: it like a well, I won't use that example that 566 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: really will put people back. But just think about something 567 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 2: where you have the external area is burned, okay, and 568 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: it's showing showing signs of being burned. We're talking about charring. 569 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: We're talking about even the skin becoming so dehydrated that 570 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: it crisp up and it's curled, that sort of thing. 571 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 2: I guess what the interior. The interior to a great 572 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 2: degree remains intact. So this is a fresh dead person day. 573 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: So when they go in to examine her body, one 574 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 2: of the things they would have done is to have 575 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,440 Speaker 2: collected see how can I say this? They would have 576 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: collected deep muscle tissue that they could have gone into bone, 577 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 2: They could have they probably could have pulled out some 578 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: blood in here, because it's all still going to be 579 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 2: there and they're going to have this, They're going to 580 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: have this hanging in the background. Okay, so they're going 581 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 2: to hold onto this biological sample. Now they did know. 582 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: We did know back during that period of time that 583 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: we could hang on to things and they would have 584 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: future utility. Did you know that at every autopsy we 585 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 2: do something. It's called a blood card and there's like 586 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 2: a little it looks like a felt car. It's real tiny. 587 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 2: It's about the size of a microscopic slide. Okay. And 588 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 2: you take just a droplet of blood and you merely 589 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 2: hold the hold the dropper above it and one little 590 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 2: drop and it goes down into the circle that's right there, 591 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 2: and you let it dry and you have that forever 592 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 2: and ever, amen, and it deserves it. Yeah, So you 593 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 2: can do that. They can retain tissue and this sort 594 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: of thing. So the fact that this is a fresh 595 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: dead remain, that's where DNA comes into play. Remember our 596 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 2: little girl up in Mary Simpson Simpson, Oh yeah, in 597 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 2: New York, in New York, dude. They they they had 598 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: held onto her dress. They and they got that from 599 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 2: seminal seminal her. The identity of the deceit of the perpetrator. 600 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 2: They got his from a seminal sample off of her dress. 601 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 2: That's not robust. Over that long period of time, you 602 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 2: get a lot of And I'm still amazed, And kudo's 603 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 2: in a tip of the cap to those guys up 604 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,840 Speaker 2: there in Elmira and New York that did this, that 605 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: they were able to preserve this for so long. But 606 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: with this case here, you do have fresh material to 607 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 2: work with, the question is how well will you preserve it? 608 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 2: And David appears that they preserved it pretty dog one. 609 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 3: Well, brother, It's amazing that when everything was said and done, Joe, 610 00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 3: this case came down to the genetics and the forensics 611 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: and identifying and once they were able to break down 612 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,240 Speaker 3: the DNA. Joe, we have talked about how public sites 613 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 3: twenty three and meters right that these that people are 614 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 3: uploading their uploading your DNA. You're putting your whatever up 615 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 3: online to find out your ancestry. 616 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: Okay, Look, we've talked about this. 617 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 3: Joe, about how the government is not allowed to go 618 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:46,040 Speaker 3: and dig into these private sites. However, when you submit 619 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 3: your sample to them, you can sign away that right 620 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: and allow them them being whoever you sent it to, to 621 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 3: allow the government to use it. You can actually allow that. 622 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 3: It's a choice. Well, in this case, young woman uploaded 623 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 3: her DNA to one of the ancestry sites and said 624 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 3: leave it open. Wow, she was hoping for a hit, 625 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 3: and Joe, it took eighteen years, but they got the hit. 626 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 3: It was in twenty twenty four they got the identification. 627 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 3: The remains were finally identified through the DNA analysis and 628 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 3: the genealogical research that was done after Austin's sister uploaded 629 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,000 Speaker 3: DNA to ancestry site. And once they knew who she was, 630 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 3: then they were like, well, wait a minute, She's from 631 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,919 Speaker 3: New York. But she had been living in Georgia. And 632 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 3: who was she living with. She was living with Angel 633 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 3: Thompson right now, Angel Thompson, and they were living together. 634 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 3: And I'm trying to remember the name of the town, 635 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 3: but it was in Georgia and it was a small town. 636 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: But Joe. 637 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 3: In two thousand and seven, when those remains were found 638 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 3: in unidentified, the name of Nicole continued on. Nicole Alston 639 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 3: continued on because Angel Thompson. She went so far as 640 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 3: to renew her driver's license. Joe Angel Thompson renewed Nicole 641 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 3: Alston's driver's license using Nicole's picture, but all of Thompson's 642 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 3: personal information using the name Angel Thompson. Nicole Alston. Angel 643 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 3: Thompson got food stamps, she got Section eight housing, social 644 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 3: Security benefits. All told, for a number of years, Angel 645 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 3: Thompson pretended to be stole the identity of the woman 646 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 3: Nicole Alston to the tune of over two hundred thousand 647 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 3: dollars in government benefits. And once they were able to 648 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 3: get the identity of the remain you know, done, they 649 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 3: were able to then track it to. 650 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:04,880 Speaker 1: Thompson. 651 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 3: And once they did, they being the investigators, they got 652 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:12,440 Speaker 3: it before grand jury. And that's what you sent me, 653 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 3: was this eighty count indictment. It is pretty serious, Joe, 654 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,280 Speaker 3: but you know what, there might be an eighty count indictment. 655 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 3: We still don't have the head, the hands, or the feet, 656 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 3: but investigators did get an identity because they didn't stop looking. 657 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 2: They didn't and every investigation, and I will say this 658 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 2: until my dying day, every investigation always begins with identification. 659 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 2: And we can have we can have unidentified bodies out there, 660 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: but if you cannot find out who the person is, 661 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 2: you cannot go forward with an investigation trying to determine 662 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: who their associates are that may have knowledge of their 663 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 2: death or you know, in certain cases, may have caught 664 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: their death. And this is a perfect example of this. 665 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: It took them all these many years, but once they 666 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:13,720 Speaker 2: were able through genetics to identify, to identify in Nicole's body, 667 00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: it's at that point in time that the wheels went 668 00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: into motion, they were able to identify that someone through 669 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 2: just a series of horrible, horrible events, robbed this woman 670 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 2: of who she was and has been living a lie 671 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 2: all these many years. Now, let me tell you this, 672 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: This accused has not been found guilty. Okay, this is 673 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 2: still in the court system, but I can tell you this, 674 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 2: brother Dave and I are going to keep an eye 675 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 2: on this case because it is absolutely super bizarre and 676 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 2: it's also a good learning tool. I think for us, 677 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 2: all we know, and this is what's important that as investigators, 678 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 2: there is always hope, There is always hope that at 679 00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,760 Speaker 2: some point in time, some peace will fall into place, 680 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 2: that some bit of data that we've overlooked will lead 681 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 2: us in the right direction. And you never know, you 682 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 2: never know, we might even wind up with the location 683 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,280 Speaker 2: of the rest of her body and hopefully we'll find 684 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 2: out what her cause of death was. I'm Josephcott Morgan 685 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 2: and this is body back