1
00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:02,160
Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast.

2
00:00:02,240 --> 00:00:05,720
Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women and them, are

3
00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,440
Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they

4
00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,720
Speaker 2: have individualism? It's the patriarchy, Zeph and bast start changing

5
00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,239
Speaker 2: it with the Bechdel.

6
00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 3: Cast from the studio that brought you Shrek. It's the

7
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,960
Speaker 3: Gladiator episode of the Bechdel Cast. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

8
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,680
Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Durante.

9
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 2: Well, aunt, did I just learn something?

10
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,240
Speaker 3: I mean it's dream Works.

11
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:33,600
Speaker 2: It's dream Works.

12
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so wait.

13
00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to introduce myself yet. That is

14
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,239
Speaker 2: shocking information. Why would this be dreamed? I wow? So

15
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,199
Speaker 2: they really they really like two roads diverged in a

16
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:51,880
Speaker 2: wood for them, and they were like, we're going Shrek.

17
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 2: We're putting our money on Shrek. And honestly, I think

18
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,040
Speaker 2: that that was the right decision for the culture ultimately.

19
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:00,080
Speaker 3: Sure.

20
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean we're just getting Gladiator too. Meanwhile,

21
00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:08,399
Speaker 2: Shrek five wrapped, it's wrapped. Yes, I don't know, I've

22
00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 2: made that up. I know it's been announced. You don't

23
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,160
Speaker 2: see Sutton Foster starring and Gladiator the Musical on Broadway?

24
00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 2: Do we see her playing Princess Fiona on Broadway. We

25
00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,400
Speaker 2: sure do to your straight nominated for a Tony Whoa.

26
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:23,679
Speaker 2: But enough about Shrek.

27
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 4: I can't believe that Gladiator shocking, shocking, shocking, I would

28
00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,240
Speaker 4: say shocking, Caitlin and I did see Shrek in thirty

29
00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 4: five millimeter, which should not be a sentence that's so ridiculous,

30
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 4: But we did.

31
00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:42,199
Speaker 2: We invested for like, no DVD. We need to see

32
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,000
Speaker 2: it in the raw.

33
00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:44,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, on the big screen.

34
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 2: It was awesome. It was literally I think the audience

35
00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 2: was split in two of like irony pilled, childless millennials

36
00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 2: and normal families. And we were all having a great time.

37
00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, nine year olds and thirty nine year old

38
00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 2: we're all rocking. It was great, ten out of ten.

39
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,560
Speaker 2: And also Gladiator.

40
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,200
Speaker 3: And also Gladiator.

41
00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,920
Speaker 2: Now I can't believe that. Okay, a rich conversation already.

42
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 2: My name is Jamie Loftis. This is our show that

43
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,720
Speaker 2: takes a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional

44
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,079
Speaker 2: feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as a jumping off

45
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: point for discussion, which is hilarious for this movie specifically,

46
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 2: but just for the sake of argument. Caitlin, what is

47
00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 2: the Bechdel test.

48
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 3: Uh, real quick here, because spoiler alert, the movie doesn't

49
00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 3: pass even a little.

50
00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,839
Speaker 2: Bit, it will not come into play. There's not even

51
00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,240
Speaker 2: an argument for like, well, could it be like no.

52
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,919
Speaker 3: Right, It's just a media metric that we use to

53
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,080
Speaker 3: initiate larger conversations about representation. There are many versions of it.

54
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 3: Ours is do two characters of a marginalized gender have names?

55
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,720
Speaker 3: Do they speak to each other? And is there conversation

56
00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 3: about something other than a man? And we like it

57
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,400
Speaker 3: when it's a you know, narratively significant conversation and not

58
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 3: just throw away dialogue. But again, it won't even come

59
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:11,440
Speaker 3: close for this movie. But we will have a rich

60
00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,640
Speaker 3: discussion nonetheless with a wonderful guest that we're very excited about.

61
00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 2: Gosh, yeah, she's incredible. And this movie is the most

62
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 2: fathers and sons coded movie I think I've ever seen.

63
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,840
Speaker 2: There's so many gosh, so many fathers and so many sons,

64
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,000
Speaker 2: so many sons. Enough already enough with the fathers and

65
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 2: the sons.

66
00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,240
Speaker 3: Yes, which is why we brought on this guest who

67
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,240
Speaker 3: frames Roman history a little bit differently.

68
00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 1: So.

69
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 3: Our guest is a historian and writer, author of many books.

70
00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,120
Speaker 3: One of which is entitled A rem of One's Own,

71
00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 3: A History of the Roman Empire in twenty one women,

72
00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 3: it's Emma Suthan. Hello, welcome, Hi, thank you, thanks for

73
00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:57,720
Speaker 3: being here.

74
00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited that we have you

75
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,640
Speaker 2: on the show. Gosh, I mean, I have so many questions,

76
00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 2: but especially because was it just last year, I flak

77
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 2: time is a flat circle. Was it an interesting time

78
00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,240
Speaker 2: for you when the Roman Empire meme was making the

79
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: rounds at nauseum?

80
00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:19,599
Speaker 1: Yeah it was. Yeah, as one of the few women

81
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 1: in the world that spend significantly more time talking and

82
00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,000
Speaker 1: thinking about the Roman Empire than her husband, it was

83
00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: a fun time. And yeah, it came out was going

84
00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,599
Speaker 1: around just as my book was coming out, so it

85
00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,000
Speaker 1: felt like a marketing campaign specifically for me, which.

86
00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,520
Speaker 2: Was great, incredible.

87
00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,480
Speaker 1: I could be like, look, it's not just like aqueducts

88
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,039
Speaker 1: and people saying Marcus Aurelius and then.

89
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,720
Speaker 2: Which this movie doesn't do that much to challenge.

90
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,080
Speaker 1: It doesn't know, this is why everybody thinks Marcus Aurelius

91
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,840
Speaker 1: is the only guy that ever existed in the whole

92
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:52,679
Speaker 1: of the Roman Empire.

93
00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,320
Speaker 2: I was so curious how you originally fell into this

94
00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,920
Speaker 2: line of study. How yeah, how did you end up

95
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: as an authority on Roman Empire?

96
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,000
Speaker 1: I did my A levels in ancient history at the

97
00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: exact time that this film came out, which I only

98
00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,640
Speaker 1: did so in the UK, you get to choose subjects

99
00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 1: that you're going to do to study, like narrow down

100
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,640
Speaker 1: to four subjects when you're sixteen. They just like choose

101
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,080
Speaker 1: a career path. And I did ancient history because I

102
00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 1: thought it sounded fun, and you got to go on

103
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 1: trips to Italy and Greece, and I just was immediately

104
00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,920
Speaker 1: captivated by the Romans and how optly, utterly horrible they are.

105
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: And I kept trying to leave, Like I tried to

106
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,039
Speaker 1: do my undergraduate in something else, I tried to do

107
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 1: my master's degree in something else, and I just kept

108
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,440
Speaker 1: quitting and going back and doing Romans. And then I

109
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 1: did my PhD and decided I didn't want to be

110
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,839
Speaker 1: an academic. I just wanted to write books with jokes

111
00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 1: in instead. And I've been getting away with that now

112
00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: for a decade.

113
00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,680
Speaker 3: So I love that it rocks.

114
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,640
Speaker 2: And specifically, I mean I will we'll talk about this

115
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,920
Speaker 2: throughout the episode, but specifically, you have been it seems

116
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 2: like one of the few people who have centered women

117
00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:05,719
Speaker 2: in your histories of room. So when you're like coming

118
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,479
Speaker 2: up in this space, was that a hard self for people?

119
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,000
Speaker 2: Was there a demand for it?

120
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: Like?

121
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,040
Speaker 2: How did you sort of land on that specific focus?

122
00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: I think because I'm a woman, and I'm also a

123
00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,359
Speaker 1: working class woman, and so so much of what you

124
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: read about when you're reading about Romans is like five

125
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 1: of the most upper class guys you've ever heard of,

126
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: like Seneca and Cicero and emperors, who are all like

127
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,280
Speaker 1: the most elite rich men that you can humanly imagine.

128
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,839
Speaker 1: And I just do not empathize with those people at all,

129
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,839
Speaker 1: Like I do not imagine myself as them, but so

130
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 1: many ancient historians and classicists totally do. They're like me, Cicero,

131
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,120
Speaker 1: like that's who I would be if I was put

132
00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,440
Speaker 1: in the past, And I just don't at all. So

133
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 1: I wanted to find you know, whenever I was studying it,

134
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: I'd always be like, who would I be in this picture?

135
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,160
Speaker 1: And I would be like some woman standing at the back,

136
00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,440
Speaker 1: being like this doesn't look like it's going very well. Yeah,

137
00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 1: basically any given situation. So I'm you know, I like

138
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 1: telling those stories and expanding the idea of what the

139
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 1: Roman Empire is and what Roman history is, because we

140
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,640
Speaker 1: have so much information about the ancient world, Like, we

141
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 1: have so much and it's all right there, but people

142
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,920
Speaker 1: are not necessarily interested in looking for it themselves. So

143
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,560
Speaker 1: I do it for them and then tell them about it,

144
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: because I'm basically just looking for myself in the past.

145
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,200
Speaker 2: A gossip about and make it fun.

146
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that they're just inherently funny, so because

147
00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,280
Speaker 1: they take themselves very seriously, but they're not a serious people,

148
00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,120
Speaker 1: and so to me, it's very easy to make jokes

149
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,680
Speaker 1: about them. And more people should. More people should make

150
00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 1: fun of them, I think, And that's what we're going

151
00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:46,800
Speaker 1: to do here today.

152
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is notes of you know, just notes of

153
00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 2: a crumbling empire, Like, yeah, I get this, I get

154
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 2: this vibe. I see myself, I see myself in this

155
00:07:58,120 --> 00:07:58,960
Speaker 2: crumbling empire.

156
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:01,760
Speaker 3: Here we are in one.

157
00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 2: Bringing it into Gladiator. When did you first encounter with

158
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,000
Speaker 2: this movie? What is your history with this movie specifically?

159
00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 1: So this movie came out exactly as I was just

160
00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: starting to study the Romans. So nineteen ninety nine is

161
00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 1: when I first started studying. In two thousand and when

162
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: this came out, and so I went with my A

163
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 1: level group to see it, and we were seventeen years

164
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 1: old and like the worst people that you can imagine,

165
00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,400
Speaker 1: because you know, you have people who have like one

166
00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,160
Speaker 1: small bit of knowledge and therefore they think they know everything.

167
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,559
Speaker 1: We were those people in the back of the cinema.

168
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,640
Speaker 1: And I saw it and I thought there was very,

169
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,079
Speaker 1: very silly, and I remember being vaguely hysterical at all

170
00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,559
Speaker 1: of the Latin because I had done one whole year

171
00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,560
Speaker 1: of Latin, so obviously so.

172
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:50,680
Speaker 3: You're fluent, of course.

173
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, but in fairness, I still find that very very funny.

174
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 1: And then I just thought it was a very very

175
00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 1: silly film that was hilarious for astonishing too and half

176
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: hours and then kind of stopped thinking about it, and

177
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:04,920
Speaker 1: since then, for the past like twenty five years, have

178
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 1: just been sort of making fun of it, like it's

179
00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,440
Speaker 1: just been it's consistently funny to do Russell Crow oppressions.

180
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 1: And went back and watched it again for this but

181
00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,400
Speaker 1: this is the first time I've actually seen it since

182
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 1: seeing it in the cinema. Wow, So it was amazing

183
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,439
Speaker 1: how much I remembered. But I've just been gently feeling

184
00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 1: bad about how annoying I must have been in two thousand.

185
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,559
Speaker 1: In the cinema, it's okay, yeah.

186
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're seventeen, that you know, if you're not annoying

187
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,079
Speaker 2: when you're seventeen, you are the weird one exactly.

188
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,439
Speaker 1: And I think it deserved the laughter.

189
00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:50,800
Speaker 2: So it's okay, Wow, we're so polite, you go. I

190
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 2: had not seen this movie. Bravely, I just and not

191
00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:00,280
Speaker 2: because I've even disinterested in ancient rom I hopefull this

192
00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,320
Speaker 2: isn't a polarizing thing to say it, but like in

193
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:06,360
Speaker 2: my like public school system, if you were like in

194
00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,360
Speaker 2: advanced classes, they made you take Latin instead of something

195
00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 2: you could use and so, and I will always resent

196
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,240
Speaker 2: because I, you know, like really wish I spoke even

197
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 2: vaguely conversational Spanish would be so much more useful in

198
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: my day to day life. But instead I took five

199
00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 2: years of Latin, and for what I don't know, I

200
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 2: retained very little. I remember how to say stupid boy,

201
00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,560
Speaker 2: futuos puiri whoa, And that was all I would really

202
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:38,360
Speaker 2: say in the class because all the boys in the

203
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:39,160
Speaker 2: class were annoying.

204
00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 3: Well, if you want to learn and in Spanish. It's

205
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 3: one way you could say it is please Chico is stupid,

206
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 3: so she could see and how much more useful would

207
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:52,240
Speaker 3: so much.

208
00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,319
Speaker 2: My life would just be easier. Anyways, I really did

209
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,040
Speaker 2: enjoy Latin, and that's why I stayed in the program

210
00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:01,240
Speaker 2: for five years. And you know, there like historical elements

211
00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,680
Speaker 2: to it. We did these very I have you heard

212
00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,920
Speaker 2: of these, like these Latin education books. I don't know

213
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:09,280
Speaker 2: if they were just in the US, but it's called

214
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:10,120
Speaker 2: Eka Romani.

215
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 1: Yes, I know it.

216
00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh my gosh. There is still kind of like

217
00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 2: a semi thriving tumbler culture around Eka Romani because it

218
00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 2: was like a story, like I do think part of

219
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 2: the reason I didn't leave the Latin program is because

220
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,760
Speaker 2: of the story. Because you're translating like a story about

221
00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,360
Speaker 2: a family who moves from Oh gosh, I wish I

222
00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 2: remembered their last name, Aki Romani Hive don't kill me.

223
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,720
Speaker 2: But they basically they're on this long journey to Rome.

224
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,240
Speaker 2: They're like an upper middle class family on their journey

225
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 2: to Rome. And then for an entire academic year they

226
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,440
Speaker 2: were stuck in a ditch. It was wild. It was

227
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 2: all of book two, all of eighth grade, they're stuck

228
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 2: in a ditch. It's so shocking. My cousin was two

229
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,520
Speaker 2: years ahead of me, and she's like buckle in for

230
00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,960
Speaker 2: eighth grade because nothing happens in Latin in eighth grade.

231
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,920
Speaker 2: They don't get to Rome until you're in high school.

232
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 2: It was like, so the year where they're in the

233
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 2: ditch is just ridiculous. Anyways, we learned about Roman history

234
00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 2: when I was saying Latin, but I just never as

235
00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,280
Speaker 2: far as like Gladiator goes. This is just like I

236
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,240
Speaker 2: see this poster and I'm like, this movie is not

237
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 2: for me. I don't know. Historical epics have never really

238
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,160
Speaker 2: been my thing, you know, hyper mask movies, I've never

239
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,400
Speaker 2: really been my thing, and so when I was watching

240
00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 2: this for the first time, I felt like, yeah, this

241
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,440
Speaker 2: is really not my thing. So not much changed. However, However,

242
00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 2: while his you know, character, which I know is like

243
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,080
Speaker 2: based in some historical truth, while Joaquin Phoenix's character is

244
00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 2: absolutely diabolical, he is so cunty in this movie. He's

245
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:59,040
Speaker 2: like awesome to watch. He's such a diva. I love him. Yeah,

246
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:02,800
Speaker 2: so yeah, I if for nothing else other than the

247
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,920
Speaker 2: Joaquin Phoenix performance, I you know, it was watching Waquin Phoenix.

248
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 2: I just didn't know there was a famous movie where

249
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,200
Speaker 2: Joaquin Phoenix killed Dumbledore. So that was interesting.

250
00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 3: H the joke man kills Dumbledore.

251
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 2: Joker killed Dumbledore. And if that's not a hot topic sentence,

252
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 2: I don't know what is.

253
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so it was. I don't know.

254
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:29,680
Speaker 2: It wasn't for me, but I am very excited to

255
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 2: talk about it because it feels like such straight guy porn.

256
00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,960
Speaker 1: Mmmmm yeah yeah.

257
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,000
Speaker 2: Yes, Kitlyn, was your history with Gladiator.

258
00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,000
Speaker 3: I saw it in high school. I don't think I

259
00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 3: saw in theaters, but when it like came out on DVD,

260
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,800
Speaker 3: my friends and I got together for a little sleepover

261
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,559
Speaker 3: and we watched it. And as far as like appealing

262
00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,599
Speaker 3: to my sensibilities, it does for me more than I

263
00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,439
Speaker 3: think it does for you, Jamie. But for some reason,

264
00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 3: I never revisited it, and I like kind of remembered

265
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:06,239
Speaker 3: nothing about it. And also I didn't learn like anything

266
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,760
Speaker 3: about ancient Rome in any history class I ever took.

267
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,920
Speaker 3: There was probably like three days where they're like, hey,

268
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,000
Speaker 3: remember Julius Caesar, he did this thing. So I know

269
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,320
Speaker 3: almost nothing to the extent where I thought that Caesar

270
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,840
Speaker 3: was a last name and not like a title.

271
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,440
Speaker 2: It's both what I'm so glad you're here. But they

272
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 2: all say, like, you're a Caesar, so that's it. That's

273
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,760
Speaker 2: her last name, but it's also their title.

274
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,600
Speaker 1: That's his name. Yeah, so his name is Guys Julius Caesar,

275
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,960
Speaker 1: so is his last name. And then it becomes a

276
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:48,720
Speaker 1: title after his air makes it into a title basically wow, okay,

277
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,160
Speaker 1: yeah wow, and then you get to be a Caesar

278
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: and then it like loses all of its name meaning

279
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,360
Speaker 1: and just becomes a title eventually.

280
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 3: So it's both Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

281
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,120
Speaker 2: So glad you're here. You're so glad you're here, because

282
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 2: they use.

283
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,040
Speaker 3: Caesar as if it's a title in this movie. So

284
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, I thought that Caesar was a

285
00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,760
Speaker 3: last name, but I guess it's been a title this

286
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,920
Speaker 3: whole time. But okay, that makes more sense.

287
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,960
Speaker 1: They're also using it very incorrectly in this movie.

288
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,760
Speaker 3: Was this movie historically inaccurate?

289
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 2: The thing that stuck out to me right away and

290
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 2: watch may be dead wrong is Lucilla's clothes. They felt

291
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 2: very small coded to me.

292
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they wouldn't log that out of place in a

293
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 1: like two thousands, like nice boty women who are married

294
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:39,800
Speaker 1: to accountants.

295
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,720
Speaker 2: Like extraneous ribbons is like a lot of like kind

296
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:48,080
Speaker 2: of unflattering fabric. You're just like, hmm, it's looking polyester.

297
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's one of my things is when people use

298
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:56,840
Speaker 1: like really fine, like diaphanous, floaty fabrics in Roman things.

299
00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 1: You're like, how do you think they're making those? Right?

300
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 1: That is machine mate, but they love a diaphanous fabric

301
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,880
Speaker 1: kind of like paying things on film. But yeah, it

302
00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,320
Speaker 1: looks also really did not look that expensive compared to

303
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 1: how much they spent on Joaquin's like fancy robes.

304
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've clad you okay, because I was like

305
00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,600
Speaker 2: maybe I just don't know for it, but it was

306
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 2: like this, this is cruel with me to say, but

307
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,160
Speaker 2: it was kind of reminding me of the costume design

308
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 2: and I Frankenstein. It felt very like I.

309
00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 3: Party Yeah, Party City vibes.

310
00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

311
00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,400
Speaker 3: So anyway, I had only seen this movie once before,

312
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:38,239
Speaker 3: although I did when I went to Rome in twenty nineteen.

313
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 3: I think it was.

314
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,480
Speaker 2: Brag am I the only person here that hasn't been

315
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:42,200
Speaker 2: a Rome.

316
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:50,240
Speaker 3: Maybe, wow, shame shame on you, Jamie. Now I did

317
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 3: a tour like a walking tour around the city of

318
00:16:54,160 --> 00:17:00,520
Speaker 3: Rome that was called Feminist History of Rome. So it

319
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,360
Speaker 3: was a tour that told events of ancient Rome through

320
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 3: a feminist lens. And I was the only person on

321
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 3: the tour. It was me and the tour guide, so

322
00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,400
Speaker 3: it was like a very I was just the only

323
00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 3: person who signed up for it, so it was a

324
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 3: very personal It was a date.

325
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,520
Speaker 2: It was basically a date.

326
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:17,960
Speaker 1: And.

327
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 3: The tour guide had some pretty like swarfy opinions about things,

328
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 3: and like was saying things that were like disparaging of

329
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,119
Speaker 3: sex workers, and so I did complain about it. I

330
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,119
Speaker 3: wrote my little review and I was like, get rid

331
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,399
Speaker 3: of all this swarf rhetoric. But otherwise it's a fun tour.

332
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,600
Speaker 3: So I learned a little bit at the time. Did

333
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:47,600
Speaker 3: I retain any of that information? Sure didn't. So couldn't say.

334
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,359
Speaker 3: But I enjoyed watching this movie. It's I think better

335
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 3: than I remember, not because it's not like, wow, this

336
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 3: is like so well written and well performed, but it

337
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,800
Speaker 3: is entertaining. I feel like the movie does what you

338
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,360
Speaker 3: as entertained. Russell Crowe's character is encouraged to do, which

339
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,840
Speaker 3: is like get the crowd on your side, and I

340
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 3: feel like me the crowd was on the side of

341
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 3: the movie. I had a good time watching it, That's

342
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 3: what I'm saying. But there's lots to talk about. So

343
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,280
Speaker 3: let's take a quick break and we'll come back for

344
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 3: the recap. And we're back, okay. So here's the recap

345
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,199
Speaker 3: of Gladiator. I will place a content warning at the

346
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 3: top here for sexual violence and incest. Okay. So we

347
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,439
Speaker 3: open on text on the screen reading that at the

348
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,880
Speaker 3: height of its power, the Roman Empire was vast, stretching

349
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 3: from Africa to England. A quarter of the world's population

350
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 3: lived and died under the rules of the Caesars. Which

351
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 3: is a title and the last name I no.

352
00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 2: No, wait, I want to say EMM a fact check.

353
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: Is the stuff at the beginning?

354
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:16,160
Speaker 1: True? Yes, it is. This is the fight, which kind

355
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,240
Speaker 1: of makes it funny that they're all very convinced that

356
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 1: this is also the end. But this is like what's

357
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 1: called the high Empire. This is like the best of

358
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 1: times for the Roman Empire. It's like size wise, it's

359
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,040
Speaker 1: at its peak, and they're only fighting wars now that

360
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,240
Speaker 1: they are deliberately getting themselves into in order to conquer

361
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 1: other people. So this is what is called the High Empire, gotcha.

362
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,879
Speaker 3: Although the text frames it very differently, where it's like

363
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,840
Speaker 3: Rome is awesome and they're just trying to kill these

364
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,679
Speaker 3: barbarians so that they can finally have peace throughout the empire,

365
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:50,840
Speaker 3: which is awesome.

366
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 2: The values of the movie are very bizarre with regards

367
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,359
Speaker 2: to that, where it's like they're not avoiding the issue

368
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:03,359
Speaker 2: of slavery entirely, and the movie has like some empathy,

369
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,479
Speaker 2: but then also they're like but ultimately, at the end

370
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 2: of the day, it's all about the Roman project, and

371
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,920
Speaker 2: you're like, I don't know about that.

372
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the rest of the text and I rewrote

373
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,440
Speaker 3: it and reframed it to this, which is so it's

374
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:23,400
Speaker 3: the year one eighty a d. Emperor Marcus Aurelius has

375
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 3: been fighting against the barbarian tribes in Germania for I

376
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 3: think twelve years now, but there's one final stronghold that

377
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 3: the Roman Empire is trying to conquer to uphold its imperialism.

378
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,360
Speaker 3: So we cut to Germania. We meet Maximus. That's Russell Crowe.

379
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 3: He's the general of the Roman army that is readying

380
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 3: for battle with the Germanic army, overseeing all of this

381
00:20:54,119 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 3: is Emperor Marcus Aurelius played by Richard Harris of Dumbledore Fame.

382
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 3: The battle takes place and the Roman army is victorious

383
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 3: thanks to Maximus being so good at war, so good.

384
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 3: We then meet Marcus Aurelius's son and daughter, Commodists played

385
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 3: by Joaquin Phoenix and Lucilla played by Connie Nielsen. They

386
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 3: are on their way to meet their father after this battle.

387
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:33,360
Speaker 2: And Commodists and Lucilla are based on real people.

388
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: They are, Yes, so they are real people. Commodist really

389
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 1: was the emperor Nisilla really was his sister, one of

390
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 1: a minimum of twelve siblings that he had. Wow, And

391
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 1: she really did hate him, and she did also really

392
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: try to kill him. Good for her, actually, because he

393
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 1: made her marry a man that she thought was beneath

394
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: her status and she took it as an insult.

395
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: Oh, so she's just lair elitist.

396
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, well so your brothers shouldn't decide who you married,

397
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 2: for sure.

398
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,400
Speaker 3: No, but you know, I mean, everyone in these imperial families,

399
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 3: I'm sure was pretty trash.

400
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then I read that real life Commedists had Lucilla.

401
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 2: He ended up having her executed, right, He had her

402
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 2: like Maroons isld.

403
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, excels for an island. Very nice island, but

404
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 1: an island. And then he had her executed on the island. Yeah,

405
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 1: due to the murderer attempt.

406
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited to talk about the ending of this

407
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: movie because it seems just like made up.

408
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: Okay, So yeah, Commodists is very slimy, he's schemy. He

409
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 3: is expecting to be his father's successor.

410
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 2: Lucilla.

411
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,360
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, the main thing we learned about her, at least

412
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 3: in the beginning, is that she's horny for Maximus, and

413
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,960
Speaker 3: it's implied that they had a love affair. At one point.

414
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 2: You're like, well, yeah, I guess what else will we

415
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: learn about a woman?

416
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one that we ever learn about.

417
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 3: So Maximus asks Marcus Aurelius if he can be released

418
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 3: so that he can return home to Spain to see

419
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 3: his wife and his son, who he hasn't seen in

420
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 3: nearly three years.

421
00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 2: It's so john Wick. It's so wife and flash. But

422
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 2: she's like mamas, hi you literally all you ever see

423
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: her to do is like wave and smile, smile and

424
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: be dead.

425
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and not have a name. I was no that

426
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: she does not have a name.

427
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,719
Speaker 2: She doesn't seed be bothered. She also has access to

428
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: a hair curler. Yeah, we learned at the end.

429
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's got a crimper.

430
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

431
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: And so Marcus Aurelius is like, yeah, yeah, you can

432
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 3: go home soon. But first I just want to say

433
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 3: that I feel like the Roman Empire has kind of

434
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 3: gotten out of ham and maybe I did too much war.

435
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: So Maximus, I want you to be the next emperor

436
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: and for you to give power back to the people

437
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 3: of Rome and to end all the corruption.

438
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. He's like, don't worry, I didn't write this down anywhere.

439
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 1: Don't Yeah, as a man who notoriously never wrote anything down,

440
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: it definitely doesn't have a still best selling book.

441
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 3: And Maximus is like hard pass, no, thank you, And

442
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 3: Marcus Aurelius is like, exactly, that's why it needs to

443
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 3: be you and not my power hungry piece of shit

444
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: son Comedis, and Maximus is like, okay, I'll think about it.

445
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 3: Then Marcus Aurelius goes to Comedis and tells him that

446
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 3: Commodist is not going to be the emperor. Instead it'll

447
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: be Maximus. And Commonist does not like this, so he

448
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 3: suffocates his father to death.

449
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: This scene is good. Sorry, it's like, I mean, this

450
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 2: is like fathers as well as sons. This is good,

451
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:09,359
Speaker 2: it's both. Yeah, that scene is awesome. He's like Joaquin's

452
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: like crying his eyeliner off. It's awesome.

453
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Commodists is like, hey, Maximus.

454
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: Bad news.

455
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 3: My father died of natural causes. But Maximus can tell

456
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 3: that Marcus Aurelius has been murdered, and he tries to

457
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 3: alert a couple senators, but before he can, Commodist orders

458
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 3: Maximus to be taken away and executed. So a few

459
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: soldiers ride Maximus into the woods and are about to

460
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: murder him, but Maximus fights back and kills all of

461
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 3: his captors because again, he's so good at war. So

462
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 3: then Maximus takes a couple horses and returns to his

463
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: home in Spain, only to discover that it's been burned

464
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 3: and his wife and son were killed clearly at the

465
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 3: instruction of Comedis. Maximus is obviously devastated, and he is

466
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 3: then abducted by enslavers. He meets another person who had

467
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: been captured, Juba played by Jaman Hansu, and they are

468
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 3: taken to a market of some kind in the town

469
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: of Zukobar in a Roman province that is now located

470
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 3: in present day Algeria. There an enslaver named Proximo played

471
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 3: by Oliver Reed, who I believe passed away during the

472
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: production of the movie.

473
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: I feel like the casting of Oliver Reed, Eilert says

474
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: everything you need to know about this movie's respect for women.

475
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know about this, so I'll have to

476
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: learn put.

477
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: A pin in it. But yeah, I didn't know that

478
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: he died during the production of this movie. But once

479
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: I read that, I think it's the halfway mark of

480
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 2: the movie, because I just had the Wikipedia in front

481
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 2: of me, and once you know, it is very obvious

482
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: that he died mid production. There's a lot of like

483
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: they seg him in at some point. Yea, they use

484
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: body doubles, like he didn't really finish the shoot.

485
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it is like they had to

486
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: see gi him, spent a lot of their budget on

487
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: CGI and Oliver Reed into that they had written and

488
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: couldn't change.

489
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, very bleak, very bleak. But as we'll discuss later,

490
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: he was a terrible person. And I'll say it, I

491
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 2: don't think we're worse off without him.

492
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 3: M okay. Anyways, this character Proximo purchases Maximus, Juba and

493
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 3: others to be gladiators who will fight and likely die

494
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: for the entertainment of others. The enslaved gladiators start to train,

495
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 3: but Maximus refuses to participate, so none of the people

496
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 3: know how good he isn't fighting yet, but then it's

497
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 3: time for the first gladiator battle in an arena. It's

498
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 3: like I don't know, ten versus ten people or something,

499
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 3: and Maximus and Juba, who are chained together, kick ass

500
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 3: and they're the last ones standing, plus this tall dude

501
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 3: named Hagen. Meanwhile, back in the city of Rome, Emperor

502
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: Commedas arrives. Although some people are like boo, you suck

503
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: and you surp haha get it anyway, Lucilla, no one

504
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 3: liked my joke, Lucilla, sorry, sorry, So then Commodis and

505
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 3: Lucilla arrive together. She greets her young son, Lucius, so

506
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 3: we meet him. Then a senator named Gracis played by

507
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 3: Derek Jacobi is like, hey, Commoedis, here's a bunch of

508
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: things you have to do to fix the city, and

509
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: Commitas is like oo, no, thank you, and he would

510
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: rather dissolve the Senate and have one hundred and fifty

511
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 3: days of games to honor his father.

512
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: Which is more days than they had when they opened

513
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: the Colosseum. So that's a lot of games, a.

514
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 3: Lot of games.

515
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 2: And this is based in anything.

516
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: No, this is entirely imagined. Okay, this is like a

517
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 1: fundamental misunderstanding of the Senate in quite a fun way.

518
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: The fact that they keep saying that the Senate are

519
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: like representatives of the people is hilarious, given that the

520
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: whole of Roman history is the Senate oppressing the people,

521
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: like explicitly saying we are not the people and you're

522
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: not allowed any saying anything for about a thousand years. Yeah,

523
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: so very very funny that they're like, as representatives of

524
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 1: the people, we should be ruling. And then yet no. Also,

525
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: the whole idea that Marcus Aurelius didn't like games and

526
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: like banned them and that's why Proximo is like off

527
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: in Algeria instead of in Rome is very funny. But

528
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty days of games is so many

529
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: days of games, that's six months.

530
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. God, anyway, so this is Commoedis's idea to just

531
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 3: have a big fun festival in Rome, and Lucilla Grachis

532
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 3: and a few other senators are like, oh no, Rome

533
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: is doomed now that comedist is in charge. So back

534
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 3: in Zuckerbar where Maximus is or I don't know if

535
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: they've traveled somewhere else anyways, it's not super clear, but

536
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 3: he is like gaining a reputation as this like powerful gladiator.

537
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 3: He is now known as the Spaniard. And he's in

538
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 3: another gladiator fight. It's him versus six men. I think

539
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 3: he kills all of them, of course.

540
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: Because he's so good at war.

541
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: He's the best at war.

542
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: That's the one where he cuts the guy's head off

543
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: with two swords at the same time. Like so good

544
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: at war?

545
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh good. I mean it's fun to watch him

546
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: be good at war.

547
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: So then Proximo tells Maximus that the new emperor is

548
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 3: doing all these games in Rome and that Maximus could

549
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: compete there and be great, but he'll need to learn

550
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 3: how to like get the crowd to love him, because

551
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: that's how you really win. And Proximo reveals that he

552
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: used to be a gladiator and he was able to

553
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: win his freedom. So now Maximus is like, hmm, I'm

554
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: going to try to do that. Maximus, Juba, Proximo, and

555
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: other gladiators travel to Rome. They marvel at the city

556
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 3: and the Colosseum. Maximus has a brief encounter with Lucilla's

557
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: son Lucius, who has heard tell of this spaniard and

558
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: is rooting for him.

559
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: Such an overwritten gooky scene. He's like, yeah, hello, it's

560
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: am I, the young boy. You're looking for sure, they

561
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: just let you know, like the air apparent loose, like

562
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: I'm sure right.

563
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 3: And so then it's time for the first gladiator battle

564
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 3: in the coliseum that Maximus will participate in. It's him

565
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 3: plus a dozen or so men on his side, and

566
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 3: he kind of assumes his role as army general again,

567
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 3: and he tells them to fight together so that they'll

568
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: have a better chance at survival. Then a bunch of

569
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 3: warriors on chariots come out, a couple of whom are

570
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: woa whoa whoa women wah. But they die along with

571
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 3: all of the other warriors because Maximus and his army

572
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 3: of gladiators defeat the other team, and the crowd is living, laughing,

573
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: loving it.

574
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: Emma, would women have been in the coliseum fighting.

575
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: Yes, they would? Oh helly, they did, and they did

576
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: have women fighting on chariots as well. We have evidence

577
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: of that, so yes, that rocks. Nothing else about this

578
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: is reasonable. This is this is a like the battle

579
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: re enactment thing that they're doing that is a real

580
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: battle against Hannibal in the Second Punic War, there is

581
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: like one of the great victories of Roman history. Do

582
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: you feel like this is maybe where they could have

583
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: taken some of the budget from recreating other of Verreed's

584
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: face and put it into extras and put more than

585
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: like eight people in their battle re enactment because it.

586
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 2: Does look a bit like well sparse.

587
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a little bit sparse in there, but I

588
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: feel like they fixed this with the second one.

589
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: Right, we're right, yeah, Okay. So then after this big victory,

590
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: Commodist approaches this Spaniard wanting to meet him, obviously not

591
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 3: realizing who it actually is, and Maximus removes his helmet

592
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 3: and he says, my name is Anigo Montoya, Maximus Decimus Olidius,

593
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 3: you killed my wife, prepared to die, and it seems

594
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: like Commodist is about to have Maximus struck down and killed,

595
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 3: but the crowd starts cheering from maximis to live, so

596
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 3: Commdist lets Maximus live and he walks away, but commedist is.

597
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: Pick Comist's reaction. I'm so funny. He's such a baby.

598
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: He's like, no, this bringing looks like even dead.

599
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 3: Why is she still alive?

600
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: They like a gladiat and more than me.

601
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: I don't get it up. I also love that part

602
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: of his speech to his dad. I mean it's like

603
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: heartbreaking in subways. But he's such a baby where he's

604
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: like all the things you fail you in a person

605
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: is not like I'm brave, just not in the traditional

606
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 2: way you would associate being brave. I'm brave, and you're

607
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: just like, oh, he's such a little baby.

608
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well we'll discuss further.

609
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: But uh.

610
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 3: That night, Lucilla pays Maximus a visit. He doesn't trust her.

611
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 3: He thinks she's in kahoots with her brother, but she's like, no,

612
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: I hate my brother. I'm trying to help you, and

613
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: I want you to meet with Senator Gracchus, who's like

614
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 3: the Bernie Sanders of the Roman Senate.

615
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was really unclear on what his

616
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: whole deal was.

617
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:14,320
Speaker 3: Not sure.

618
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think that he is supposed to just

619
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 1: be like a representative of So have you ever seen

620
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: I Claudius, the BBC TV show I Claudius There's No Reasonstein.

621
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: And Tanya I Franknstein. Yeah.

622
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: So there is a very famous BBC adaptation of the

623
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: Robert Graves book I Claudius, which has Derek Jacoby in

624
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,959
Speaker 1: it as Claudius, and he's like the one good man

625
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: in Rome, and it's huge. It's got like Brian Blessed

626
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: in it, It's got Patrick Stewart with hair in it.

627
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 1: It's like a real big like institution in British television

628
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 1: and film history. And really Scott obviously is British, so

629
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: he has specifically cast Derek Jacoby in this role because

630
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: he is like the face of like good Rome to

631
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: pretty much everyone in the entirety of Britain.

632
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 3: So people who had seen that would know the context.

633
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: Of exactly and you would be like, this is Derek Jackby.

634
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: He's like the good guy. It doesn't really matter what

635
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: anything else about him, we just know that in this

636
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: context Derek Jackby is always the good guy. Okay. And

637
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: then he has this name which is also associated with

638
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: like fighting for people's rights, so he's like he's basically

639
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: like I've cast Derek Jacoby, I've given him the name Gracis.

640
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 1: I don't need to do anything more than that. You

641
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: can just.

642
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 2: Assume, yeah, and everyone will know. Everyone will know. Yeah, yeah, clearly.

643
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: I mean Caitlin and I knew immediately.

644
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 3: We definitely knew.

645
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,880
Speaker 1: I feel like he might have been making some assumptions

646
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: about how many people outside of England had seen my Claudius.

647
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: But.

648
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: I think that maybe Ridley Scott makes a lot of assumptions.

649
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: So it's just that, yeah, like how much people the

650
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 2: average person knows about the Roman Empire, which feeds directly

651
00:36:56,760 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 2: into the meme of last year where yeah, apparently it's

652
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: all on a lot of people's minds. Yeah, but I

653
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: just I'm not among them.

654
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, So Lucilla has, you know, paid this visit

655
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 3: to Maximus, and he doesn't trust her, so he's like,

656
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 3: leave here, never come again, and forget I even exist,

657
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 3: So she leaves. The next day is another gladiator battle

658
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 3: where Maximus fights the only undefeated gladiator and all of

659
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 3: Rome Tigris of Gaul, and it's clear that commodists had

660
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 3: like rigged this battle because like tigers are released into

661
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: the arena to attack Maximus. But Maximus is so good

662
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: at war even with tigers, doesn't matter. Yeah, so he

663
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 3: defeats them because he's just that good. Comedists and Maximus

664
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: have another like face to face where Commedist tries to

665
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 3: get a rise out of Maximus and insults his wife

666
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 3: and son. But Maximus is like, I'm cool, baby, I'm

667
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: just biding my time until I get a good chance

668
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,960
Speaker 3: to kill this motherfucker.

669
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: Cut to Commodists again being like stop.

670
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: Yep.

671
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 3: So meanwhile, Maximus is former servant when he was like

672
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 3: general of the army. Cicero comes to see him and

673
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,320
Speaker 3: Maximus has Cicero tell Lucilla that he changed his mind

674
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 3: and wants to meet with Senator Gregis after all. So

675
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: they meet and Maximus wants Grachis to help him stage

676
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 3: a coup to overthrow Commedists via Maximus's army of like

677
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 3: five thousand men who are currently stationed in some nearby city,

678
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 3: and once Maximus has killed Commodis, he will leave and

679
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: give the power back to the people of Rome to

680
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: honor the wishes of Marcus Aurelius.

681
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 2: And offer that people are famously good for take a

682
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: sword for it, I mean obviously, so much about this

683
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: movie is unbelievable, but like it made my stomach turn

684
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: because it's like, don't trust him, don't trust him.

685
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 3: They don't mean it, Okay. So then Commonist has Grachus arrested,

686
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: and so Maximus has to fast track his plan to

687
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 3: leave and go get his army that night, and Lucilla

688
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 3: gives him a little goodbye kiss on the lips to

689
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: send him off, but Commedist suspects Lucilla is betraying him,

690
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: so he threatens to kill her son Lucius unless she

691
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: tells him everything, which she presumably does because then an

692
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 3: army comes after Maximus and captures him as he's trying

693
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: to leave the city. So then Commonist claims Lucius as

694
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 3: his own son. He tells Lucilla basically that he will

695
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: rape her so as to get an heir to the throne.

696
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 3: So the stakes are very high.

697
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk about that whole speed. It's so thoroughly

698
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: evil where he's like, if you think about taking your

699
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 2: own life, I'll kill your son, and you're just like,

700
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 2: ah ah.

701
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 3: The stakes are high and he needs to die right now.

702
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 3: So then Commonists challenges Maximus to a fight to the

703
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 3: death in the coliseum in front of all of Rome,

704
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 3: but not before he stabs Maximus in the back, giving

705
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 3: him a big boo boo, so that Comedist has the

706
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 3: advantage in this battle. So the fight begins, and Commonists

707
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: is a better fighter than I expected, because it makes

708
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: it seem like, oh, I've never been on the battlefield,

709
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: so I'm like, he probably can't even wield a sword.

710
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 3: But he's kind of better than I thought. But he

711
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 3: still does lose when Maximus stabs him in the throat.

712
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 3: But Maximus is losing a lot of blood and so

713
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 3: he's like knocking on death's door. But he tells this

714
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 3: army dude named Quintus, who had betrayed Maximus earlier in

715
00:40:57,760 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: the movie, so I don't know why he's good again.

716
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 3: But he tells Quintus to free the enslaved gladiators to

717
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: reinstate Senator Gracis, who presumably will give the power back

718
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 3: to the people of Rome because he said so, which

719
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 3: again the senators famously did, And then Maximus collapses, dies

720
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,839
Speaker 3: and reunites with his wife and son in the afterlife,

721
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 3: and the movie ends with Lucilla, Lucius, Juba, Gracis, and

722
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 3: others carrying Maximus's body out of the coliseum the end. Yeah,

723
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 3: I like it's so corny.

724
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: But when Juba is like not yet, not yet, I

725
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. It makes me think.

726
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 3: So that's the movie. Let's take another quick break and

727
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 3: we'll come back to discuss.

728
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: And we're back. And we're back, Emma, I want to

729
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: kick it to you to start. We like what stuck

730
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 2: out to you more than anything.

731
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 1: More than anything one, the amount that they talk about

732
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: the idea of Rome just really sticks out to me.

733
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: They talk about it as a dream, as an idea,

734
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 1: as like a vision of something, and they're never specific

735
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: in any way about what this is, just so that

736
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,320
Speaker 1: it is kind of non specifically good and involves the people,

737
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: and that what is happening now is non specifically bad.

738
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: But they just as constantly all of these very like

739
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: pompous lines about like once there was an idea of

740
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: Rome and it was just an idea. You had to

741
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: whisper it, and it has been blown away because people

742
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: have said it too loudly. And you're like, what, I've

743
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: genuinely no idea what you're talking about, Like, I don't

744
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: know that you know what you're talking about but that idea,

745
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: like they're constantly talking about like this dream of Rome

746
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: or idea of Rome, which I've just seen Megalopolis. Oh,

747
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: and they do the exact same thing, So that really.

748
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: Stuck at all. I still haven't seen it near enough.

749
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: If you've seen Gladiator, you're not too far away from

750
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: the shea just wild ride that isless. But they do

751
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 1: the same thing when they just talk about the idea

752
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: of Rome constantly without ever saying what it is. And

753
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: also just how incredibly straight it was. It's just I

754
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: think I said to somebody, it's a movie about boys

755
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 1: and their relationship with other boys for boys, Like there's

756
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 1: no women, there's not even any, Like all of their

757
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: relationships are so straight, like there's not even anything. Like

758
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 1: how do you make men who are nearly topless in

759
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: skirts with their legs out, sweating and covered in blood

760
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: fighting not sexy at all? Like how have you made it?

761
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:57,760
Speaker 1: They're seterosexual?

762
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 3: Not gun made it sexy? But this movie, right, didn't

763
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 3: make it sexy?

764
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I mean, really's got correct me if

765
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: I'm wrong, I'm like, he does not make sexy movies.

766
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 3: He really doesn't, not especially I.

767
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: Can't really think of what I think maybe he's tried to,

768
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: but I can't think of a really Scott movie that

769
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: I'm like, that movie was hot, it's not really his Like.

770
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 1: No, he's unbelievably be good at taking sex out.

771
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 2: Of stuff, which is a shame because you're like you're saying,

772
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: I'm like this. I tried to look back on the

773
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 2: original marketing of this movie, and it is like being

774
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: pretty explicitly marketed to men, which feels like even if

775
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: you're going with the straight washing of the marketing campaign,

776
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: it feels like a big missed opportunity to not be

777
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: like marketing. Look at this movie full of sexy guys fighting,

778
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 2: Like yeah, this movie should have been marketed to everybody,

779
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: but it's so like caught up and it's like hyper

780
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 2: masculine agenda. And going back to your first point, I

781
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 2: was also sort of like, I don't know. The politics

782
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 2: of this movie to you were so confusing because it

783
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: like has a clear interest in showing you know, at

784
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: least some range of like oppression and privilege, but like

785
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 2: absolves Rome from that, where it's like, well, is Rome

786
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:21,240
Speaker 2: not responsible for that? Like I just found the whole

787
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: Like it's like they vaguified the idea of Rome so

788
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,280
Speaker 2: much because it's like, well, like if you talked about

789
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: it too much, wouldn't it make it seem like a

790
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: pretty evil imperial project. But we're not supposed to think that, Like,

791
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 2: I don't.

792
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, it is a big and bi evil imperial project.

793
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 1: So like the from the very beginning when they're like

794
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,479
Speaker 1: fighting the German barbarians who were just hairy in order

795
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: to have peace, one mustn't one peace. They never won peace,

796
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: and to like, it's a war of expansion, that's a

797
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: war of aggression by.

798
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: The Romans taking land, killing people needlessly.

799
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, all my store there wars. The war was where

800
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: they turned up and just like murdered people until they

801
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 1: took all of their land. Right, So then being like, ah,

802
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: this is the glory of Rome, Like, yes, Marcus Aurelius,

803
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: this is the.

804
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: Glory of Rome.

805
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 1: This is exactly No one has ever seen the column

806
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: of Marcus Aurelius, but he did make a big column

807
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: that depicted all of like his wars, and it's literally

808
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: just Marcus Aurelius and his empire and his imperial army

809
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: stamping on the faces of German people and they're pretty explicit,

810
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: and it has like if you can google it and

811
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: look and see how much they really love showing themselves

812
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: like fighting and stamping and oppressing people, and they really

813
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: like imagery of the people that they have conquered looking sad,

814
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 1: like really sad. So they can't be explicit about well,

815
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 1: the actual dream of Romans because it is conquering people

816
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: who aren't Roman and then killing them and then making

817
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: them fight for fun.

818
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: It's like in this movie just seems like it's coasting

819
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: on vibes kind of and like coasting on like the

820
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 2: osmosis idea of what ancient culture was like versus any

821
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: interrogation of what it actually was like, because it's weird,

822
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: Like you still get the feeling based on how he's

823
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: framed that. Like Maximus at the end of the day

824
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,759
Speaker 2: like liberated people, but he really just liberated like ten.

825
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 1: Guys, Like did ten guys he knew?

826
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: Right, He's like, wait, please release my friends and then

827
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 2: continue the imperial project goodbye, Like that is what he

828
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 2: does at the end, right, Like I don't know.

829
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 3: Pretty much, yeah, yeah, for sure, everything else is fine

830
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 3: real quick. I didn't even make the connection when I

831
00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 3: said top gun, but that's directed by Tony Scott, which

832
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: is Ridley Scott's brother. Oh my god, Tony Scott's making

833
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: the horny boy movies and then Ridley Scott's making this

834
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 3: sexless god that okay boy movies.

835
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 2: Well that's the thing about brothers and brothers. There's one

836
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: horny one and one not horny one, right, right, right, right, right, Yeah,

837
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 2: that's just the time honored trope. Right.

838
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: I mean, this movie is basically a story about two men.

839
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 3: One who is evil because he's power hungry and has

840
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 3: a fragile male ego. So at least the movie does

841
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: like villainize those characteristics. But then it's like, but the

842
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 3: other guy is good because he's so good at war

843
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: and helping the Roman army to expand their empire by

844
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 3: murdering and stealing land. But the movie frames it is like, no,

845
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 3: he's good because he has honor and he actually rejects

846
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: imperial rule and he wants to give power back to

847
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: the people. And it's like, first of all, that wasn't

848
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 3: even his idea, you.

849
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: Know, he just glombs onto that because someone off is

850
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: it to him?

851
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: Really?

852
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: Also, he's the only person that does any murdering in

853
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 1: this film. Like the amount of innocent gladiators who are

854
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: also in slaves. Yeah, who was just doing that job

855
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 1: that he murders brutally and then shouts to everybody he's

856
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,800
Speaker 1: the only guy that does any actual, like real nasty killing.

857
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 3: He does crimes, and.

858
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: He's framed as like an organizer, but I like not

859
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: really seeing the not really seeing the vision for what

860
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: he's up to do. It kind of remight be the

861
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 2: Waquin Phoenix character, which he was like based on a guy,

862
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 2: but is a character remight be of It's not quite

863
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: but like how we used to talk a lot about,

864
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 2: like the patriarchy the guy kind of trope where it's

865
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,400
Speaker 2: like there's one character who's so super evil that you

866
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 2: kind of don't notice or seriously consider what the other

867
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 2: characters are doing because this is the most evil guy

868
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 2: of all time. He is like not just an imperial

869
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 2: piece of shit, he also is oppressing his sister, who

870
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 2: were supposed to like. He's also like he killed his father,

871
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,240
Speaker 2: who were supposed to like. But because he's like oppressing

872
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 2: these people, we're supposed to like, we're not thinking about

873
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 2: what the other people are doing and what their goals

874
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: are because Waquin Phoenix is so like he literally in

875
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 2: a few scenes was like reminding me of Molif, Like

876
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: he's going for it. He's like diva villain and he's

877
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: great at it. But I feel like it almost sort

878
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 2: of like makes it easy to like, YadA YadA away

879
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: what everyone else is doing, because we have to kill

880
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 2: the worst guy.

881
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the best guy is Maximus.

882
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:19,959
Speaker 2: Because he's the other guy.

883
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, the other guy that's in it, and he's nice

884
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,399
Speaker 1: and simple and the like Waku Phoenix has got too

885
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 1: many fancy quothes on.

886
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 3: Right, and all all Maximus wants is just to go

887
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 3: back home and see his wife unnamed, unnamed wife.

888
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: She could be anybody. She has no characteristics other than

889
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 1: being married Maximus.

890
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 5: On once soever, this is something that comes up with

891
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 5: I mean, we need to talk about Juba as like

892
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 5: a whole other discussion, but the friendship that is established

893
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 5: between Maximus.

894
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 2: And Juba, I'm on board on paper, but the way

895
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 2: that they bond is so vague, where Like Juba's like,

896
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: my family is alive and Maximus is like, whereas mine

897
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 2: is dead. That's all they talk about. There's no even

898
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: like from a writing standpoint, how many opportunities are there

899
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: in the space of that scene to give a specific

900
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: example of like something about my family that I miss

901
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: that Juba could connect with, or like whatever it is.

902
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,879
Speaker 2: But they're just like me, wife alive, me wife dead.

903
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 2: No names, no descriptions, no reason as to why. I mean,

904
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 2: they seem like they both buried for love. But we

905
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 2: don't even know. We can't be sure.

906
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 3: No, the most we get is Maximus saying, my son

907
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 3: likes to ride ponies.

908
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 2: The end. Really good, really good, really good stuff, best

909
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 2: original screenplay.

910
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 3: Well, let me take a little detour and provide some

911
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 3: kind of development context which informs why this story is

912
00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 3: like historically inaccurate gobbledy good, called gobbledygook, but so. Writer

913
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 3: David Franzoni traveled across Europe and the Middle East by

914
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 3: motorcycle in the early seventies. He says, quote, everywhere I

915
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 3: went in Europe there were arenas. Even as I went east,

916
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 3: going through Turkey, I began to think to myself, this

917
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,279
Speaker 3: must have been a hell of a franchise. And then

918
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: he read a novel called Those About to Die, which

919
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 3: I think is about the Roman Empire question mark. I'm

920
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 3: not even sure, but it gave him the idea for

921
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 3: the movie Gladiator, and then he also read Historia Augusta

922
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 3: and from that he chose Comedis. Okay, am, I saw

923
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 3: you recoil in Horror, so yeah, please please inform.

924
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: The story or Augusta is like a notorious source. It

925
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: is probably a novel as far as we are, like,

926
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 1: we think that it's probably historical and like slightly trashy

927
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: historical fiction, like not Hilary Mantel levels of historical reaction.

928
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's basically pretends to be biographies, but it

929
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: has loads of stuff. It's definitely not true in it,

930
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:13,839
Speaker 1: but it also has lots of stuff that we don't

931
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:17,239
Speaker 1: know whether it's true or not. So read in the

932
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 1: History of Augusta is Yeah, it's like picking up I

933
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: don't know Philip A. Gregory novel, being like, well, obviously

934
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 1: I know about Judas now, so it's.

935
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,240
Speaker 2: Like, so it's it's like an ancient airport book.

936
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is.

937
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's exactly what got it. Well that's what this writer,

938
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 3: David Franzoni.

939
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: Used, So I'm glad that he's got all the good stuff.

940
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 3: From that, he was like, oh, comedist sounds like a

941
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 3: good character to like center and make my villain and

942
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 3: so he, you know, presented this idea to dream Works

943
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,560
Speaker 3: of Shrek Fame, of course, and they brought Ridley Scott

944
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 3: on board to direct, and he signed on because he

945
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 3: was shown an image of a painting called and I'm

946
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: probably gonna pronounce this wrong, but it's an eighteen seventy

947
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 3: two painting called Police Verso where it's just like a

948
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: gladiator fighting in a I don't know if it's the

949
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 3: coliseum or some kind of battle arena, but it's supposed

950
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 3: to portray the Roman Empire in all its glory and wickedness.

951
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 3: And Ridley Scott was so captivated by this painting that

952
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 3: he was just like, yeah, of course I'll direct the movie.

953
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 3: And they're like, well, you don't even know what the

954
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 3: story is or anything, and he says, I don't care,

955
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 3: I'll do it. So he agrees to direct a movie

956
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 3: based on a painting that looks like it could be

957
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,800
Speaker 3: a frame of the movie Gladiator. So he's on board.

958
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 3: Then another writer, John Logan, is brought on to do

959
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 3: some rewrites, and we can talk about a change that

960
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 3: he made later on, but basically, Franzonian Logan completed a

961
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 3: second draft the screenplay in late ninety eight. They started

962
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 3: shooting shortly thereafter, but Russell Crowe kept being like, oh,

963
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 3: this script is so undercooked, and there were all these

964
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 3: like complaints about the script was always changing. During the

965
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 3: shooting of the movie. Ridley Scott kept being like, okay, actors,

966
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 3: writers and producers, what do you think what should happen?

967
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 3: Like that, he was there just like constantly changing the story,

968
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 3: like a lot of lines of dialogue were ad libbed

969
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: by the actors.

970
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,920
Speaker 2: I'm always blown away like hearing stories about gigantic budget

971
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,919
Speaker 2: movies like this where they're like it's like day one

972
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: of a one hundred million dollar movie and they're like, so,

973
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 2: what should happen we do?

974
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: You're like, what my favorite thing is that their strength

975
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: and honor thing that Russell Kirk keeps saying is him

976
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 1: misremembering his own school motar.

977
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 2: Wait really yeah, Yeah, that's so funny.

978
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,760
Speaker 1: He just felt like they should have something that they say,

979
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: So he was I'm going to do my st and

980
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: that's not what his school watched.

981
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, his school motto. I think it translated to like

982
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 3: truth and virtue or something, but in Latin. Yeah, and

983
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 3: then it's like strengthsen on or close enough. So and

984
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,360
Speaker 3: then Okay, more hilarity ensues from this point on because

985
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 3: another writer, William Nicholson, was brought on to do another

986
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 3: rewrite of the script, and he made the Maximist character

987
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: like more sensitive. I guess he was the one who

988
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 3: kind of reworked the friendship between Maximus and Juba. He

989
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 3: developed the like afterlife through line that they often refer to.

990
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 3: But Russell Crowe didn't like a lot of this writer's dialogue.

991
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 3: He called it garbage. And then he was like, I'm

992
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 3: the greatest actor in the world, but even I can

993
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 3: make garbage sound good. So he's over here being like,

994
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 3: I'm the greatest actor of all time.

995
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 2: I mean, does he know what his performance in ley

996
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: Miz is gonna be like? Because they may be a

997
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 2: little too close to the there, rus.

998
00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 3: And then apparently the line where he says like in

999
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 3: this life or the next, I will have my vengeance,

1000
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 3: he like refused to say that line at first because

1001
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 3: he thought it was so corny. So you know, it's uh,

1002
00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 3: it's basically Russell Crowe behaving the way that Joaquin Phoenix's

1003
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 3: character behaves throughout the entire movie, just being like so bitchy, like.

1004
00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: Evil men are such divas.

1005
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: Apparently it's just been revealed as well in the press

1006
00:57:31,840 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: tour for Gladiator too, that Waking Phoenix nearly walked off

1007
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: set on like day one. He was like, I don't

1008
00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: want to do this, Like I'm just like any of you.

1009
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: I don't want to be here. And really Scott had

1010
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: to like beg him to stay and persuade and stay.

1011
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: So it's just like men's egos smashing into each other

1012
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: for however long it took to shoot this.

1013
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: Oh lord, I mean, and if you look, I just

1014
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 2: I had to keep reminding myself as I was watching

1015
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 2: this movie, I'm like, this is the director of film

1016
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 2: and Louise how it likesn't? How does that? I mean

1017
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: it's Callie Corey's script that's out because otherwise you're like

1018
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,600
Speaker 2: clearly left to his own devices. He doesn't know what

1019
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 2: the fuck he's doing with, Like there's too many men

1020
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: I don't see. I want we looked down this top line.

1021
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 2: I'm saying that there was a co composer who is

1022
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: a woman. That is the only woman I'm seeing in

1023
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 2: this like top creative line. It is fellas all the

1024
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 2: way down. Also, just a quick side note, Caitlin. I

1025
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 2: know you're a Hans zimmer Stan. However, this man loves

1026
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: to self plagiarize himself. Oh my god, it's the score

1027
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 2: of Pirates the Caribbean.

1028
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 3: Yes, you're like, think.

1029
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:45,320
Speaker 2: Of another riff, you hack, like unbelievable, right, So I

1030
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 2: guess it was him plagiarizing himself when he wrote the Pirates.

1031
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 2: Pirates He's like, oh, probably these, And it's true. I

1032
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,800
Speaker 2: didn't see glad. I didn't know. I didn't know.

1033
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 3: Hmm, well now we know hack fraud.

1034
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 2: Isn't he like one of those composers that like kind

1035
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 2: of does it in a factory way too? I think?

1036
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: So.

1037
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 3: I can't really speak to it, just because I don't know.

1038
00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,480
Speaker 3: The main thing is that I did see him in

1039
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,440
Speaker 3: concert one time, and it wasn't even him. It was

1040
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 3: like his orchestra, so he wasn't even there, but it

1041
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 3: was his music, sir.

1042
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: Any Anyways, yeah, he was self plagiarizing hard in Pirates.

1043
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 1: Didn't even know.

1044
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had the same thought.

1045
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: And dun, dun, Dunnah, you're like, what.

1046
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 3: What that's right? So well, let's talk about the women

1047
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 3: that are on screen. All take two of them. So

1048
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 3: Maximus is his wife, who never gets a name. As

1049
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 3: we've mentioned, she is majorly fridged. For any listener who

1050
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 3: is unfamiliar with that term, it's come up on the

1051
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 3: show from time to time, but if this is your

1052
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 3: first episode, for example, fridging is a term that was

1053
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 3: coined by Gael Simone in the late nineties. It refers

1054
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 3: to a trope where characters who are women face disproportionate harm, violence, assault,

1055
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 3: death to serve as plot devices, generally to motivate characters

1056
01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 3: who are men. And this is like happening to a

1057
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:19,439
Speaker 3: tee in the case of the wife of Maximus. And

1058
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,320
Speaker 3: I foreshadowed this earlier, but one of the credited writers,

1059
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: John Logan, who made some changes to the script. One

1060
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 3: of the changes he made was that Maximus' family would

1061
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 3: be killed off to motivate Maximus' desire for revenge, So

1062
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 3: that was his choice. But yeah, as we said, we

1063
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 3: only see his wife in a few flashbacks. She has

1064
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 3: no lines of dialogue, we don't know her name.

1065
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 2: She looks like she's about to go to prom nineteen

1066
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 2: ninety eight. Like, it's like so bizarre.

1067
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 3: Why wouldn't we have a flashback where like she and

1068
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 3: Maximus are interacting and speaking to each other, and like

1069
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 3: doing anything to characterize her.

1070
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: Weirdly, we only have flashbacks to a scene where he's

1071
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:08,800
Speaker 1: not there. They repeatedly flashback to the scene where they're killed,

1072
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: right if it's consistently, he's remembering a time when he

1073
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 1: wasn't there, So he doesn't even remember meeting her, the

1074
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 1: birth of their child, like their wedding day, any of

1075
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: the wonderful experiences that they must have had together because

1076
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: he loves her so much. Yeah, he just imagines her

1077
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: being killed basically and looking happy in the moments before that.

1078
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, the wind is blowing through her hair and she's beautiful.

1079
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: In addition to like the I mean severe under characterization

1080
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:45,080
Speaker 2: and the fridging of his wife, I also was noticing

1081
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 2: like so much of even with Lucilla, like all of

1082
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:52,360
Speaker 2: the relationships to women, it's almost, without exception, told and

1083
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 2: not shown, Like we learn when Lucilla is talking to

1084
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 2: Caesar at the beginning. She's like, we have a complicated relationship,

1085
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 2: but we love each other, and You're like, I guess

1086
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 2: I'll just have to take your word for it. I guess,

1087
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 2: like I not really seeing it. He has minutes to live,

1088
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 2: but sure, I guess we're just gonna have to take

1089
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 2: your word for it. The relationship between Maximus and Lucilla,

1090
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 2: they're like we used to date and it was complicated.

1091
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, I guess I'll just have to take your

1092
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 2: word for it, because this is all I'm getting for this.

1093
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 2: The only like relationship we are shown is the most

1094
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 2: predatory relationship between a man and a woman, because we

1095
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:32,640
Speaker 2: are explicitly shown Commidis's behavior towards Lucilla, the elements of incest,

1096
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: the oppression, the threats of violence, all of that were shown.

1097
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 2: But any like affectionate relationship with a woman is You're

1098
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 2: just like told it happened at some point off screen

1099
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 2: for sure.

1100
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,360
Speaker 1: Except for the bit where Marcus Aurelia says, I wish

1101
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: you were a boy.

1102
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, yes, that's the only affection that he boy,

1103
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: this would be much better. Oh my gosh, I agree.

1104
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: So yeah.

1105
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 3: This is a line that happens pretty early in the

1106
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 3: movie where Marcuslius approaches Lucilla and says, if you had

1107
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 3: only been born a man, what a Caesar you would

1108
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 3: have made. You would have been strong, but would you

1109
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 3: have been just? And I feel like that is what

1110
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 3: the movie is trying to do with her character for

1111
01:03:15,520 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 3: the rest of the movie, because there's like different moments

1112
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,640
Speaker 3: where we're not sure if she can be trusted, if

1113
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 3: she is on her brother's side, or if she's going

1114
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 3: to do the right thing and like try to get

1115
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 3: him out of power, that kind of thing.

1116
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 2: I will say that.

1117
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 3: There are a few moments where she takes action that

1118
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 3: does impact this story to some degree, where you know,

1119
01:03:40,400 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 3: she sets up a meeting between two men, and she

1120
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 3: does some other stuff probably, But for the most part, yeah,

1121
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 3: we only ever know her in contexts that are often

1122
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:58,080
Speaker 3: traumatizing to her, or we see her in the context

1123
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 3: of being the his mother to a son who I

1124
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 3: believe that's who the sequel will center around. Is it Lucius?

1125
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 2: Is that Paul mescal It is? So yeah, whoa, that's fun. Yeah,

1126
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,240
Speaker 2: I'm gonna see it. I'm going to see it. I

1127
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: want to see everyone's legs. I hope really Scott learned

1128
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,880
Speaker 2: that we want to see the legs linger on the legs.

1129
01:04:22,800 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: Linger one legs just a bit. Take the tops off.

1130
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 1: No one even takes the top off in this, Like

1131
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: he gets stabbed and they don't take his top off.

1132
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 3: Not enough nipples for sure.

1133
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, take a page from your brother's books, really and

1134
01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 2: show us the legs.

1135
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 3: The people want the legs. Yes, so yeah, the women

1136
01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 3: in the movie are I would say, not characterized well shocking.

1137
01:04:46,720 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 2: Or only characterized on the basis of their relationship and

1138
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: oppression with and by men, which, like, its always hard

1139
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 2: to talk about, especially at a historical piece, because it's

1140
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: like you can't shy away from the reality of that.

1141
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 2: It's not you should rewrite history to be like women were,

1142
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 2: you know, included in equal measure. But there's no like

1143
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 2: respect for her personhood, Like we just don't know anything

1144
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:12,880
Speaker 2: about her. So I was curious. I don't mean to

1145
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 2: put you on the spot, but like in this era,

1146
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 2: in a story like this, what are historically accurate ways

1147
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 2: that women could have been more meaningfully included in a

1148
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:23,520
Speaker 2: story like this.

1149
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,080
Speaker 1: Well, even if you just had Lucilla, you could have

1150
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: had her have some agency, and like she basically just

1151
01:05:30,360 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: reacts to the people around her. She reacts to Comma,

1152
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: she reacts to Maximus, apart from the bit where she's

1153
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: like Gracus, come over here, and she just as quite

1154
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: reacting to people around her. But there's like various points

1155
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: where you see her with female attendants, and then the

1156
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: two lines that she says to somebody who are not

1157
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,560
Speaker 1: a man are just men's names. At one point she

1158
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: says Maximus and the other time she says commedist is

1159
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:58,480
Speaker 1: over there. But like you could have had some scenes

1160
01:05:58,520 --> 01:06:00,800
Speaker 1: with her talking to these women, like she surrounded by

1161
01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: these women and you see her with them, like just

1162
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: put into or three scenes where she is discussing something

1163
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: with any of her sisters. There's like five of them,

1164
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,560
Speaker 1: or like we're not paying historically accurate, we could have

1165
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 1: had several of them alive. Or you could just have

1166
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,360
Speaker 1: her talking to her intendants or her friends and just

1167
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 1: have her be like, you know, engaged in an intellectual

1168
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:27,080
Speaker 1: manner and plotting or having a reaction that is her

1169
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: own reaction and isn't just like in the context of

1170
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: her talking to her brother, or have her talking to

1171
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,760
Speaker 1: somebody who isn't Maximus about what she wants to do,

1172
01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: Like why does she want to get rid of her brother?

1173
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:39,920
Speaker 1: Does she just want to get rid of him because

1174
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:41,919
Speaker 1: he is threatening to rape her and murder her son,

1175
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: or does she actually have some feelings about like what

1176
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 1: her father plans for the empire are, Like I have

1177
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: no idea what is her motivation?

1178
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 2: You could just get outside of her own oppression. Yeah, yeah,

1179
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:57,919
Speaker 2: because again really we're told it feels like very like meant.

1180
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 2: And also I mean I've only seen it like half

1181
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 2: asleep at a motel eight, so I would say I

1182
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:06,600
Speaker 2: haven't really seen the movie. The Last Duel. I do

1183
01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 2: think that like Ridley Scott later in his career at

1184
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 2: least attempted to address women's role in history a little

1185
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: more thoughtfully than in this movie. So like this is

1186
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,479
Speaker 2: not but it feels very of the time to we're

1187
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 2: just told, oh, you're really smart, like Dumbledore says, you're

1188
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,280
Speaker 2: really smart, but we don't really get to see her

1189
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 2: act on that at any point.

1190
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 1: But she genuinely did, like in history plot against her brother,

1191
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: she did try to kill him. She was exiled for it.

1192
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: Like show her doing this stuff rather than her just

1193
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 1: being like a conduit for men doing this stuff. Right,

1194
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: it feels so simple. But I do feel like this period,

1195
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: this film to me feels like it really fits in

1196
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: to that like One Man is Going to Save the

1197
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 1: World period of films that you've got in like nineteen

1198
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: ninety nine two thousands, like Matrix and like Fight Club,

1199
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: and like all of those films were like one guy

1200
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 1: is going to come and overthrow of the things.

1201
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 3: The chosen one exactly.

1202
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 2: But there's just like no shred of satire to this

1203
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 2: movie at all. It's so earnest.

1204
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 3: When you said Shred, I thought you were gonna say Shrek.

1205
01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,719
Speaker 2: And this brings me back to my main problem Shrek.

1206
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,000
Speaker 3: Okay, wait, in Shrek one, remember when he like goes

1207
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 3: into basically a colosseum and.

1208
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,320
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, they do a gladiator's boof, don't they. They

1209
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 2: kind of do a wouldn't have been too early because

1210
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:28,920
Speaker 2: it came out the next.

1211
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 3: Year probably, so I don't know if they were pulling

1212
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 3: from it. But Farquad is like kill the ogre and

1213
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,680
Speaker 3: then he is like the gladiator that defeats all of

1214
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:41,280
Speaker 3: the soldiers and then he has to go rescue Fiona.

1215
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:46,200
Speaker 2: Comedists and Farquad should be in the same conversation, and

1216
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:48,160
Speaker 2: it is a cultural failing that they're.

1217
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: Not yes, yes, being right right here right now.

1218
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, I totally agree with you, Like this is

1219
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 2: very of the era to have this sort of like

1220
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:02,920
Speaker 2: one great man narrative and to do it to like

1221
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 2: justify some like historically fucked up imperialism. I'm curious. I mean,

1222
01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 2: I know we have other stuff to talk about too,

1223
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,080
Speaker 2: but in terms of like the legacy of Gladiator, how

1224
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 2: big of an influence does it have on like how

1225
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:22,679
Speaker 2: we think about the Roman Empire, you know, a quarter

1226
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:23,400
Speaker 2: century later?

1227
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,960
Speaker 1: Huge, I would say huge. It comes up constantly, which

1228
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 1: is why even though I hadn't only seen it that

1229
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: one time, I could have quoted quite a lot of it,

1230
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:37,040
Speaker 1: like the entirety of the like I'm the husband of

1231
01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: a murdered wife and the father of a murdered son,

1232
01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 1: and I will have my vengeance in this life or

1233
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,840
Speaker 1: the next, like and all of the like hand running

1234
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,799
Speaker 1: through the through the wheat that goes on for ages,

1235
01:09:48,880 --> 01:09:51,799
Speaker 1: and like big chance that I could have quoted without

1236
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 1: like if if havn't seen it, because people talk about

1237
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,160
Speaker 1: it a lot, like people love it. Yeah, it reignited

1238
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: a lot of that kind of big historical epic stuff.

1239
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 1: And the HBO's Rome comes like not long after this,

1240
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:11,360
Speaker 1: and largely because Gladiator says that we can do big,

1241
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: big Rome films again after the sixties. And yeah, so

1242
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,240
Speaker 1: it has this huge impact and people talk about it constantly.

1243
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: And when you tell people that you're a Roman historian,

1244
01:10:23,280 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: they'll be like Gladiator.

1245
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 2: Yes, so this is we're hunting you right now.

1246
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:37,000
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's it's good though, because I like

1247
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:40,519
Speaker 1: it is something that is constantly around, but now it

1248
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 1: is because it's coming back to cinema and he's doing

1249
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 1: it again and with the Scout. Now doesn't have any

1250
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 1: rains on him at all, Like he has been allowed

1251
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,120
Speaker 1: to do whatever he likes, and he has more computer

1252
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 1: technology and more money and more men, and so it's

1253
01:10:59,400 --> 01:11:01,800
Speaker 1: kind of great because you who knows what stuff he's

1254
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 1: going to be able to talk about he's going to have.

1255
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: There's like a whole industries in academia that are just

1256
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:08,200
Speaker 1: talking about all the things that are wrong, and Gladiator.

1257
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 1: They've got another like thirty years worth that coming ahead.

1258
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 1: So he's so it's great.

1259
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 2: Really, faur Redly, Yes, the Roman historians will never be

1260
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 2: out of work because of how wrong you are.

1261
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, how little he cares about historical accuracy. It's great.

1262
01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:26,679
Speaker 1: He's done it for the Napoleonic guys now and.

1263
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 2: Oh great, yeah, because he did the boon less.

1264
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,240
Speaker 3: I humiliatingly saw Napoleon in theaters, and.

1265
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,000
Speaker 2: The only person I know who's seen it.

1266
01:11:35,080 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 3: I don't know why I saw.

1267
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:42,639
Speaker 1: It, and and I laughed so hard. It's so boring.

1268
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 2: It's so boring.

1269
01:11:45,360 --> 01:11:49,639
Speaker 3: Yeah. Something I lament is that the movie Caligula did

1270
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 3: not have the same cultural impact as Theadiator. Have you

1271
01:11:52,680 --> 01:11:53,440
Speaker 3: seen Colligular?

1272
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,280
Speaker 1: I am obsessed with the movie Colligular. I have seen

1273
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: the movie Currigular about fifty times. You know you're my

1274
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 1: real friend. When I make you watch Cligula and then

1275
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:05,639
Speaker 1: I make you choose which cut because I currently own five,

1276
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 1: I was like, didn't it that they just like re

1277
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 1: released one of the cuts in theater? This is a

1278
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,519
Speaker 1: new cut, Yes, the ultimate cut, which is cut to

1279
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 1: the original Gorvadale film with what they Gorvidale script. Wait

1280
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 1: whoa and Yeah, Cligula unfortunately did not have the same impact,

1281
01:12:21,560 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: and you do have to remind people that exists, which

1282
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 1: is a shame because it's just wild in every cut.

1283
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,120
Speaker 3: Could you describe for our listeners in a couple of

1284
01:12:31,160 --> 01:12:34,040
Speaker 3: sentences exactly what Cligular the movie is.

1285
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 1: So Coligo of the Movie is a nineteen seventy nine

1286
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 1: film financed and produced by Bob Guccioni, who owned Playboy

1287
01:12:41,760 --> 01:12:46,519
Speaker 1: and not Playboy, who owned Penthouse magazine and was made

1288
01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:49,679
Speaker 1: with a huge budget in Italy, with these huge sets,

1289
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: with an art house director and a Gorveradal script, and

1290
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 1: has quite an a list like Theatrical Car. So it's

1291
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:04,920
Speaker 1: got Peter tool Helen Mirren, Malcolm McDowell in it, all

1292
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 1: of these kind of big names. And then there were

1293
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 1: some quite intense arguments about the production because it is

1294
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:13,880
Speaker 1: supposed to be a pornographic film, high class pornography. Bob

1295
01:13:13,920 --> 01:13:16,280
Speaker 1: Gocci only felt that it wasn't pornographic enough, so he

1296
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:19,519
Speaker 1: filmed his own pawn on the sets and edited it

1297
01:13:19,560 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 1: in and everybody tried to have their name taken off

1298
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,599
Speaker 1: of it, and what it ended up with being a

1299
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:31,000
Speaker 1: very very expensive mashup of quite low quality pornography and

1300
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: Peter Retchel and Malcolm McDowell doing acting. And as a result,

1301
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:41,320
Speaker 1: it is a truly bizarre watch and endlessly fascinating.

1302
01:13:42,080 --> 01:13:43,760
Speaker 2: Wait come back and cover it with us.

1303
01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: I was like, let's do, yeah, please do cligular.

1304
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:49,720
Speaker 2: We owe you a caligular episode for making you do

1305
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 2: the Gladiator episode. You were you were old. Oh I

1306
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 2: almost saw the new cut in theaters, been like, I

1307
01:13:56,840 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 2: think I need to see the original first. And then

1308
01:13:58,520 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 2: I just I haven't seen any of it.

1309
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:01,679
Speaker 3: I don't know which cut I've seen.

1310
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: I would watch the Imperial Cup. None of them really

1311
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: make any sense. No, I will talk about this. If

1312
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:09,280
Speaker 1: you don't, don't me, So.

1313
01:14:09,840 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 2: Please do come back, like next year to do Kligig

1314
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 2: because we've we've never covered like a pornographic. We've never

1315
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 2: covered porn.

1316
01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a huge oversight on our part.

1317
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, short, short sighted. And getting back to Gladiator.

1318
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 2: Gladiator is so unsexy. It's like a proto Marvel movie

1319
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,000
Speaker 2: with the amount of like set. It's like aggressively hetero

1320
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:37,000
Speaker 2: but completely sexless and has everything to do with fathers

1321
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 2: and sons.

1322
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 1: Very fathers and sons.

1323
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 2: I don't really have anything to even say about the

1324
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:44,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the only interesting father and son

1325
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 2: relationship I or the one I was interested in was

1326
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 2: between Caesar and Commonists. Like that was juicy to me. Yeah,

1327
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,640
Speaker 2: and that like you know, like Caesar's like nipping at

1328
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,559
Speaker 2: something interesting by being like, well, you know, he acknowledges that, like, well,

1329
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:03,479
Speaker 2: part of the reason you're fucked up is because I

1330
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 2: was not a good parent to you.

1331
01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, which you're like, Yeah, the commonist is like, you

1332
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 3: never hugged me, and that's why I suck.

1333
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:11,639
Speaker 1: That's why I'm a Nazi now.

1334
01:15:12,040 --> 01:15:15,280
Speaker 2: So you're like, it's a little it's a little overly simplistic,

1335
01:15:15,320 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 2: but I did at least like that there was. But again,

1336
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,599
Speaker 2: it just felt so like disjointed in the way because

1337
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 2: it's like Caesar has talked about so uncritically by everyone else,

1338
01:15:25,240 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 2: but it's like, but he did, you know, fail in

1339
01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:32,640
Speaker 2: this way where he was like unable to show his

1340
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 2: children meaningful affection. He sort of like hints at that

1341
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 2: in that one conversation we get with him, and Lucilla'd

1342
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 2: be like, hey, pretend that I'm like an awesome dat

1343
01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 2: and she's like, haha, how funny would that be if

1344
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,920
Speaker 2: you were. So it's like he has failed as a parent,

1345
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 2: and it's like that is an interesting sort of back

1346
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,519
Speaker 2: and forth to explore of like someone who is like

1347
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:56,639
Speaker 2: succeeded professionally but failed personally. But it's just like even

1348
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,000
Speaker 2: though we know that about him, it really kind of

1349
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 2: never comes up again. It's more just like we need

1350
01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:05,760
Speaker 2: to honor his legacy and not that like Commodist's brutality

1351
01:16:05,880 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 2: needs to be further contextualized. I like that they included

1352
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 2: that though, like that there is at least in this

1353
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 2: story some context as to like why he is so

1354
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 2: desperate for affection from fucking anybody, and that if he

1355
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 2: doesn't receive that affection, he will respond with violence and entitlement.

1356
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:26,920
Speaker 2: Like I felt like, you know, his character, even though

1357
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:30,400
Speaker 2: he's so over the top, was contextualized well. But then

1358
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:32,599
Speaker 2: it just they don't really do very much with it.

1359
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 2: You just see him being brutal and then he dies

1360
01:16:37,400 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 2: the end.

1361
01:16:39,240 --> 01:16:41,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, I tend to agree that that was I mean,

1362
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,760
Speaker 3: that was the most like fully realized narratively as far

1363
01:16:44,760 --> 01:16:47,760
Speaker 3: as the father son dynamics, there are at least three

1364
01:16:47,800 --> 01:16:51,840
Speaker 3: others that I clocked. Because there's the Maximus and his

1365
01:16:51,880 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 3: father figure Marcus Aurelius, because you know, Marcus is like, hey, Maximus,

1366
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 3: you're the son I never had, and Maximus loves him

1367
01:17:01,360 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 3: as a father, and he spends the whole rest of

1368
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 3: the movie like trying to carry out Marcus Aurelis's wishes

1369
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:11,479
Speaker 3: for Rome. So there's that, There's Maximus and his son

1370
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:17,720
Speaker 3: who is killed, and I guess going very briefly back

1371
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 3: to his wife. Of it all, at least it's not

1372
01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 3: just like the woman who is not characterized or not given.

1373
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 2: A name, because women and children are uncarrieds. Yeah, women

1374
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 2: and children last, said Ridley Scott.

1375
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:37,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, Ridley Scott watched Titanic and he said no, no, no,

1376
01:17:37,320 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 3: no no, I'm.

1377
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:39,599
Speaker 2: Going to do this up the office. Children last.

1378
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:43,720
Speaker 3: So there's there's that dynamic, which is just another thing

1379
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,720
Speaker 3: that's motivating Maximus to get his revenge, the fact that

1380
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 3: his son was brutally murdered. And then there's Maximus and Lucius, who, Okay,

1381
01:17:52,760 --> 01:17:54,639
Speaker 3: tell me if I'm way off here, but I feel

1382
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,559
Speaker 3: like the movie was like vaguely kind of implying that

1383
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 3: maybe Lucius was Maximus's by iological son from the affair

1384
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 3: that he may or may not have. I couldn't tell

1385
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 3: if that's what the movie was trying to like hint

1386
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:09,160
Speaker 3: at or not.

1387
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: But I was like, I think though, Okay, kept having

1388
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 1: them be in like they had so much of their relationship,

1389
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 1: and then right when they had the meat, it was

1390
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:22,360
Speaker 1: very much a moment of connection between the two of them.

1391
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: He was like, I'll be rooting for you, Spaniard, and

1392
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,679
Speaker 1: then now it's revealed obviously that he is his biological son.

1393
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 2: Oh and glad hear too.

1394
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is confirmed. Yes, it is confirmed. Okay, well

1395
01:18:33,960 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 1: that Lucius.

1396
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:36,080
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense.

1397
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:38,040
Speaker 1: It is the biological child and is going to come

1398
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 1: back and be given Maximus the sword and go on

1399
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 1: my damn face.

1400
01:18:43,040 --> 01:18:46,080
Speaker 2: I was like, weird that these two are connecting. That

1401
01:18:46,160 --> 01:18:47,080
Speaker 2: makes totals.

1402
01:18:47,280 --> 01:18:49,639
Speaker 3: Well, that means that Maximus cheated on his wife.

1403
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 2: Then no, but he loved her so much. You don't

1404
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:54,200
Speaker 2: understand because of the same age.

1405
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:56,400
Speaker 1: They are the same age, so how does that work.

1406
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 3: He had sex with Lucilla and his wife basically at

1407
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,080
Speaker 3: the same time, So he cheated on his beloved wife.

1408
01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:04,240
Speaker 2: So Maximus is a dog.

1409
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:07,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's a freaking dog. Although maybe I don't know monogamy.

1410
01:19:07,840 --> 01:19:10,559
Speaker 3: Was there polyamory in ancient Reme?

1411
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:16,080
Speaker 1: No, not with free people, no, I see, I see yeah,

1412
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 1: and slave people is a different matter, but free people no, right,

1413
01:19:19,720 --> 01:19:22,280
Speaker 1: So he's a dog and definitely no empresses.

1414
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:26,160
Speaker 3: That's gondsing. That gets you excelled, right exactly because women

1415
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 3: are property exactly. Yeah, So lots of father son dynamics.

1416
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 2: And then there's also I would argue Maximus and Proximo.

1417
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:41,640
Speaker 2: Oh sure, there's kind of like a another like at

1418
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:46,200
Speaker 2: least mentorship energy between the two of them that is

1419
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 2: ultimately resolved. Here's where I'll just insert I feel bad

1420
01:19:49,040 --> 01:19:52,479
Speaker 2: by saying I'm glad Oliver Reid's dead. That's a little harsh.

1421
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:56,000
Speaker 2: He did struggle with alcoholism his entire life, and I

1422
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:58,200
Speaker 2: don't want to minimize that. However, he said some of

1423
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:02,120
Speaker 2: the most vile things of women throughout his life that

1424
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:05,600
Speaker 2: I've ever heard, Like, was just a lifelong mask off misogynist.

1425
01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 2: Loved to go on TV and talk about how poorly

1426
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:09,360
Speaker 2: he thought of women.

1427
01:20:09,439 --> 01:20:10,240
Speaker 1: How you know, he.

1428
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,519
Speaker 2: Just was like, I don't know. His politics were awful.

1429
01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,680
Speaker 2: He was like a mask off misogynist going back to

1430
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:20,600
Speaker 2: the seventies. If you were casting him, it's something you

1431
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:24,800
Speaker 2: would have known about him already. So just for for

1432
01:20:24,840 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 2: what it's worth, I don't mean to minimize his struggle

1433
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 2: with addiction, but he was an asshole and I didn't

1434
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 2: even know that that was something that, like my boyfriend

1435
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:34,559
Speaker 2: knew off the top of his head. He was like, oh,

1436
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,080
Speaker 2: look at Proximo over here. I was like, why did

1437
01:20:38,080 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 2: men know so much about glad Eater? But they do?

1438
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:43,200
Speaker 3: Do they really do they do?

1439
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: I would also say that you have Commodists and Lucius

1440
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:48,759
Speaker 1: as well, and he's trying to very much take Lucius

1441
01:20:48,840 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 1: under his wing, true, reading to him and teaching him

1442
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 1: this history. And then when he says he's going to

1443
01:20:53,880 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 1: adopt Lucius and have him, he's taking him away. So

1444
01:20:58,479 --> 01:20:59,719
Speaker 1: he wants to be his father.

1445
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:06,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are six many others some possibly, Yeah, they're

1446
01:21:06,240 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 3: all right.

1447
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:11,320
Speaker 2: It's very they're sharing daddies like and then and then

1448
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 2: there's like the relationships between men that are not father son.

1449
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 2: There's obviously the tension between Maximus and Commitists. There's the

1450
01:21:18,360 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 2: friendship between Maximus and Jubba. Like, there's just so many

1451
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:25,600
Speaker 2: pairings of men, it's infinite.

1452
01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 3: To go to Juba real quick. It feels like a

1453
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,920
Speaker 3: classic example of a black character who exists solely to

1454
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 3: serve the story of the white protagonist. Yeah, that's really

1455
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 3: all we kind of get with that character.

1456
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:40,040
Speaker 2: I agree.

1457
01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then to return to Proximo really quickly. So

1458
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:48,240
Speaker 3: he's this like he's an enslaver. He is exploiting and

1459
01:21:48,280 --> 01:21:53,200
Speaker 3: profiting off of being this like gladiator guy coach. I

1460
01:21:53,200 --> 01:21:56,200
Speaker 3: don't know, but so he's a bad person, yeah, but

1461
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:59,240
Speaker 3: then he has this like redemption basically he's killed, but

1462
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 3: it is framed to me at least as this like heroic, like, oh,

1463
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,680
Speaker 3: he did the right thing because he let one of

1464
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:11,640
Speaker 3: his enslaved gladiators go and he kind of sacrifices himself

1465
01:22:12,160 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 3: for the greater good. And it's just like, well, why

1466
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:20,000
Speaker 3: does this like enslaver capitalist get a redemption? Didn't see

1467
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:23,200
Speaker 3: why that was necessary at all. So yeah, the men,

1468
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,719
Speaker 3: the men in the movie, they're they're kind of bad.

1469
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:28,640
Speaker 3: It's just so underthought.

1470
01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:33,000
Speaker 2: This is like revealing what a brain dead child I was.

1471
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:36,479
Speaker 2: Because Jaimon Hansu, I've seen him in a ton of

1472
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:41,759
Speaker 2: movies over the years. He's been in a shitload of things.

1473
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:45,280
Speaker 2: The thing I primarily associate him with, though, is the

1474
01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:48,080
Speaker 2: fact that he used to be married to Kimoraly Simmons

1475
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:52,360
Speaker 2: but occasionally appear in her reality show Komoralley Simmons Life

1476
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,720
Speaker 2: in the fab waan whoa, I don't know. And that

1477
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:57,880
Speaker 2: was where I was like, I've seen this guy. I've

1478
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 2: seen this guy, and the answer could be so many things.

1479
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:05,360
Speaker 2: He's in Marvel movie, he's the New Shazam. He's been

1480
01:23:05,439 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 2: in so much shit. But I was like, oh, he's

1481
01:23:08,479 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 2: to be married Komorley Simmons and that's my brain rot

1482
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:14,040
Speaker 2: jumping out. Love it Life in the Fab Lane.

1483
01:23:14,080 --> 01:23:15,439
Speaker 3: I don't know what that is.

1484
01:23:15,640 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 2: You never will.

1485
01:23:16,479 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 3: He's in beauty shop never Forget.

1486
01:23:19,320 --> 01:23:21,960
Speaker 2: And as I was looking, I felt like such a loser.

1487
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 2: As I was looking through as IMDb, I was like,

1488
01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:29,600
Speaker 2: I hate that. I connected it to probably his randomst credit.

1489
01:23:30,920 --> 01:23:32,599
Speaker 1: But not even an acting credit.

1490
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,679
Speaker 2: Nope, he was just being a husband sometimes on that show.

1491
01:23:36,760 --> 01:23:39,360
Speaker 2: I loved come Life in the Fab Lane.

1492
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 3: I love it when a guy is like, I'm the

1493
01:23:42,400 --> 01:23:45,680
Speaker 3: husband you see sometimes that's sort of my favorite way

1494
01:23:45,720 --> 01:23:48,240
Speaker 3: to see a man on screen. I mean, he seemed

1495
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 3: fine with it.

1496
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:50,400
Speaker 2: I don't think he was in the show very much,

1497
01:23:50,439 --> 01:23:52,960
Speaker 2: which I would avoid as well. Who wants to be

1498
01:23:53,000 --> 01:23:56,120
Speaker 2: on an ereality show when they're already a successful actor?

1499
01:23:56,200 --> 01:24:02,280
Speaker 2: Seems like a lateral move. But anyways, that's my embarrassing admission.

1500
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,800
Speaker 2: But yes, like he's yet another character who I mean,

1501
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 2: I feel like half the time he enters the scene Juba,

1502
01:24:08,520 --> 01:24:11,559
Speaker 2: that he's just there to ask like, hey, how about

1503
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 2: that dead wife Maximus? Like that's like.

1504
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:17,920
Speaker 1: Kind of round by Maximus and be his like little

1505
01:24:17,920 --> 01:24:21,080
Speaker 1: sidekick that does' he's told and yeah, right, also the

1506
01:24:21,120 --> 01:24:24,840
Speaker 1: only character that we see, like we see much more

1507
01:24:24,840 --> 01:24:27,320
Speaker 1: of his body than we do anybody else, Like you

1508
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:31,519
Speaker 1: see basically his entire naked butt. True, he is the

1509
01:24:31,840 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 1: only man that you see any like flesh of which

1510
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:39,800
Speaker 1: felt really objectifying in a way that was I would

1511
01:24:39,800 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 1: hope he wouldn't get away with now, I guess.

1512
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:45,040
Speaker 2: But yeah, right for your only black character that you

1513
01:24:45,080 --> 01:24:48,040
Speaker 2: get to know, Yeah, m hm. Yeah. And again, it

1514
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,559
Speaker 2: just feels like there is so many, like at a

1515
01:24:51,560 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 2: lot of points in this movie, so many opportunities to

1516
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 2: give more insight into history with the inclusion of his character,

1517
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,200
Speaker 2: give more in into this character if you don't feel

1518
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:06,879
Speaker 2: like including history, but they just opt to do like nothing,

1519
01:25:07,120 --> 01:25:13,599
Speaker 2: just vague man platitudes that are only really supporting Maximus's story.

1520
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:16,599
Speaker 2: I don't know. I also think that there is something

1521
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:19,599
Speaker 2: too I didn't I meant to look into if there

1522
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:23,800
Speaker 2: was sort of like academic writing to this extent, But

1523
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:27,120
Speaker 2: just how it seems like, especially like in Western cultures,

1524
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:31,560
Speaker 2: people are way more comfortable interacting with stories about slavery

1525
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,719
Speaker 2: and slave uprisings when the protagonists are white.

1526
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:35,639
Speaker 3: For sure.

1527
01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this feels like it's very much in conversation

1528
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:41,120
Speaker 2: with that, and so are a lot of I mean,

1529
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of these. You know, if

1530
01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:48,680
Speaker 2: you go back older historical epics will very frequently like center, like,

1531
01:25:48,720 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 2: if it's a story about slavery, the protagonist is white,

1532
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 2: and I think like the implication is so they'll be

1533
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:56,720
Speaker 2: easier for you to root for instead of, you know,

1534
01:25:57,320 --> 01:26:01,799
Speaker 2: engaging with the West's own hist with slavery in any

1535
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:02,639
Speaker 2: meaningful way.

1536
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,640
Speaker 3: Very true. Does anyone have anything else they'd like to

1537
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:09,080
Speaker 3: say about Gladiator?

1538
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:11,800
Speaker 1: The last thing I'm going to say is that the

1539
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:17,439
Speaker 1: Nazi imagery when Commodace is entering Rome and there are

1540
01:26:17,520 --> 01:26:22,120
Speaker 1: straight up direct recreations of shots from Triumph of the Will.

1541
01:26:23,000 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 3: Oh wow, I did not pick up on that.

1542
01:26:27,240 --> 01:26:30,640
Speaker 1: God yeah, which is a very specific thing to be

1543
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,480
Speaker 1: saying about commodis making him explicitly a Nazi and explicitly

1544
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:37,280
Speaker 1: Hitler at that point in his return to Rome. And

1545
01:26:37,479 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 1: if you go back and look, you can like everything

1546
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:43,040
Speaker 1: is regimented, everything is blue, everything looks like Berlin, And

1547
01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:47,000
Speaker 1: there are specific recreations of Triumph of the Will shots,

1548
01:26:47,320 --> 01:26:47,880
Speaker 1: which was.

1549
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 2: A statement really cool.

1550
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,400
Speaker 1: Is not a subtle man as a general rule.

1551
01:26:56,920 --> 01:26:59,360
Speaker 2: No, I know how many times am I going to

1552
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:02,320
Speaker 2: give really Scott past because he did ultimately direct Filma

1553
01:27:02,400 --> 01:27:07,280
Speaker 2: and Louis. We just have to give that to the screenwriter. Anyways,

1554
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:11,719
Speaker 2: this movie doesn't pass the Bechtels, has no and of discussion,

1555
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,280
Speaker 2: even have to name too women. Oh my god.

1556
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1557
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:21,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. But our nipple scale, though, is still way better.

1558
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 2: I love very low.

1559
01:27:24,640 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 3: It's where we rate the movie on a scale of

1560
01:27:27,600 --> 01:27:32,120
Speaker 3: zero to five nipples. Examining the movie through an intersectional

1561
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:36,920
Speaker 3: feminist lens, I will give it half a nipple for

1562
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:46,400
Speaker 3: the pretty clear indictment of male fragility in the commedist character.

1563
01:27:46,680 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 3: Like that is something that's very clearly displayed, that he

1564
01:27:49,280 --> 01:27:52,719
Speaker 3: has a very fragile male ego and that he's power hungry,

1565
01:27:53,479 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 3: and those qualities are vilified. So that's pretty much all

1566
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:05,240
Speaker 3: all I can say for the movie. It's, as we've said,

1567
01:28:05,280 --> 01:28:10,839
Speaker 3: all of these historical epics almost always center men. Women

1568
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:16,519
Speaker 3: are ancillary characters. Their stories and lives and accomplishments are

1569
01:28:16,880 --> 01:28:19,960
Speaker 3: very rarely the focus. This movie is no exception. But

1570
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:23,720
Speaker 3: that's why people should read your book, Emma, which we'd

1571
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:25,840
Speaker 3: love to hear more about in a moment. But yeah,

1572
01:28:25,840 --> 01:28:29,240
Speaker 3: I'm going to give the movie one half nipple, and

1573
01:28:29,439 --> 01:28:34,640
Speaker 3: I will give it to the part where Proximo is

1574
01:28:34,680 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 3: like talking to some merchant who had sold him giraffes,

1575
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:41,160
Speaker 3: and he's like, the drafts got me, he said, the

1576
01:28:41,200 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 3: drafts you sold me won't mate. They just walk around

1577
01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 3: and eat you sold me queer giraffes. So I'm giving

1578
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:49,560
Speaker 3: my half nipple to the queer drafts.

1579
01:28:49,800 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, queer icons as close as we get to queer representation,

1580
01:28:56,360 --> 01:29:02,240
Speaker 2: and Gladiator is the giraffes. Yeah, Caitlyn, I'm gonna meet

1581
01:29:02,280 --> 01:29:04,920
Speaker 2: you at half a nipple, and I'm I'm gonna even

1582
01:29:05,080 --> 01:29:09,040
Speaker 2: like more give it to the one Quen Phoenix performance,

1583
01:29:09,240 --> 01:29:12,040
Speaker 2: even more than a script, because I think that like

1584
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:15,640
Speaker 2: he I mean, he's great, and like it's just I

1585
01:29:15,840 --> 01:29:20,759
Speaker 2: like that he really leaned into the weepy baby element

1586
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 2: of like because I feel like you could have also

1587
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,000
Speaker 2: played those same words with a lot of like how

1588
01:29:26,040 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 2: could this be? You know kind of thing, but he's

1589
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:32,680
Speaker 2: just like playing it as the like display of kind

1590
01:29:32,720 --> 01:29:36,880
Speaker 2: of pathetic emotion that it is. And I really enjoyed

1591
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:40,680
Speaker 2: his performance in this movie. And other than that, like

1592
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:44,639
Speaker 2: sorry to fans of this movie, I found it quite boring.

1593
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:52,800
Speaker 2: I was not enjoying myself. I was playing Neopets for

1594
01:29:53,120 --> 01:29:55,720
Speaker 2: part of it. For some of the action scenes, I

1595
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:59,040
Speaker 2: was like, I'm gonna feed my Neopet because that's like

1596
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:02,560
Speaker 2: the lowesome depression I'm at. Right now, I'm back on Neopets.

1597
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, I'm rather shook that you're

1598
01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,160
Speaker 3: playing Neopets at this juncture in time.

1599
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:11,240
Speaker 2: I at this late stage, I am playing Neops. Neopets.

1600
01:30:11,400 --> 01:30:14,000
Speaker 2: We could talk about another time. But Neopez literally taught

1601
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:19,559
Speaker 2: me capitalism, and now I'm back, like Neops is capital

1602
01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 2: I had a mortgage when I was twelve on Yos. Yeah,

1603
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:24,360
Speaker 2: this is exactly.

1604
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:25,559
Speaker 1: Why I won't play any of those games.

1605
01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, not that like I'm like, we should have more

1606
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,519
Speaker 2: games about capitalism for children. But I think that I

1607
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 2: learned more about like how money works on Neopets that

1608
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,599
Speaker 2: I learned at school or from my family. I had

1609
01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:43,599
Speaker 2: a bank account, I had a mortgage, and the way

1610
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:48,320
Speaker 2: that you make money is by playing games. And that's

1611
01:30:48,400 --> 01:30:52,640
Speaker 2: kind of how Gladiator. No it's not, I uh know,

1612
01:30:52,760 --> 01:30:55,240
Speaker 2: this is food. I don't know. I feel like what

1613
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:57,639
Speaker 2: it is an interesting example of and I'm so glad

1614
01:30:57,680 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 2: that you were with us. I'm about to you know,

1615
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:03,639
Speaker 2: give us accurate historical insight into what this time may

1616
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:07,799
Speaker 2: have actually been. Like, is how influential, Like when movies

1617
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,880
Speaker 2: like Gladiator are wildly influential, it can take decades and

1618
01:31:11,960 --> 01:31:17,040
Speaker 2: decades to roll back the kind of lazy hollywoodification of

1619
01:31:17,240 --> 01:31:21,160
Speaker 2: actual history, and that I know, like it is a

1620
01:31:21,160 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 2: tendency to be like, oh well, like the you know,

1621
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,800
Speaker 2: impact of movies is overstated. It reflects the culture. That's

1622
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 2: all true, But also especially with something this specific, it's like,

1623
01:31:29,880 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like you've been gladiatoring against gladiator

1624
01:31:34,360 --> 01:31:37,719
Speaker 2: for your entire career. Yeah, it's just wild.

1625
01:31:38,120 --> 01:31:40,479
Speaker 1: As soon as you start writing about gladiators, you have

1626
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:45,320
Speaker 1: to say first things, first, gladiator games are nothing like gladiators.

1627
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:49,519
Speaker 1: Gladiator is the worst a fiction of gladiatorial games. And

1628
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:51,439
Speaker 1: then you just have to dismountle that for ages.

1629
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 2: But god, and yeah, then you can never actually start

1630
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 2: making the point you're going today.

1631
01:31:57,120 --> 01:31:59,840
Speaker 3: Also, I really like the part where it's I think,

1632
01:32:00,200 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 3: like second glad Eater battle in the movie, and he

1633
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:05,519
Speaker 3: like has just killed a bunch of people and the

1634
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:07,759
Speaker 3: crowd is kind of like lukewarm, and then he goes

1635
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 3: are you not entertained, and it's like me after every

1636
01:32:11,400 --> 01:32:12,160
Speaker 3: stand up show.

1637
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 2: I was just like to say, that was very like

1638
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:19,200
Speaker 2: stand up coded to me was I was like, Oh,

1639
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:21,520
Speaker 2: someone's doing bad at the store.

1640
01:32:22,320 --> 01:32:22,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1641
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:24,760
Speaker 3: He basically turned on the crowd be like, Oh, I

1642
01:32:24,760 --> 01:32:27,240
Speaker 3: guess you guys are too. You don't get my references?

1643
01:32:27,320 --> 01:32:29,720
Speaker 2: Okay, you freaking snowflakes.

1644
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:33,640
Speaker 3: You're like, yes anyway.

1645
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:36,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, So half nipple and I'm gonna give it to

1646
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to give it to Joaquin Fhoenix's tears.

1647
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 3: Oh beautiful Emma, how about you?

1648
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think half nipple is very fair, and I'm

1649
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:47,160
Speaker 1: also going to give it half a nipple. But I'm

1650
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 1: going to give it also to Waqi Phoenixy's performance, but

1651
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: for a different reason, because I feel like there would

1652
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:55,519
Speaker 1: have been a real strong temptation to play that role

1653
01:32:55,600 --> 01:33:00,559
Speaker 1: feminized and with a lot, especially with Roman emperors, you

1654
01:33:00,600 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 1: find that they are played as very feminine and a Femineit.

1655
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 3: Almost like a queer coding kind of.

1656
01:33:07,200 --> 01:33:10,280
Speaker 1: Thing exactly, and that is very much what they've done

1657
01:33:10,320 --> 01:33:11,840
Speaker 1: with the second one from what I can see you

1658
01:33:11,880 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 1: at the trailer. But Waquing Phoenix did not make that

1659
01:33:14,880 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 1: decision he made this decision to play it very masculine

1660
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:22,720
Speaker 1: and to not make this a queer character or an

1661
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:26,680
Speaker 1: effeminate character as they have so often, and for that

1662
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:29,360
Speaker 1: I appreciate him. And I'm specifically going to give it

1663
01:33:29,400 --> 01:33:31,960
Speaker 1: to his cute little white outfit that he wears in

1664
01:33:32,000 --> 01:33:34,599
Speaker 1: his death scene where he looks like a statue like.

1665
01:33:34,720 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 2: His little Yeah, his little Jesus Christ superstar.

1666
01:33:38,240 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 1: Exactly a plus little outfit.

1667
01:33:41,720 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 3: Amazing e.

1668
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:45,080
Speaker 2: But thank you so much for a joint Like I

1669
01:33:45,200 --> 01:33:48,479
Speaker 2: just I can't imagine, like how we would have done

1670
01:33:48,479 --> 01:33:49,600
Speaker 2: this episode without you.

1671
01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,400
Speaker 3: We would have been like, must be pretty historically accurate.

1672
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,880
Speaker 2: It's a documentary and we'll just go with that. There

1673
01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 2: was one woman in all of Rome, kind of oh.

1674
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: That's the only one that ever existed. Yeah, it's amazing

1675
01:34:02,479 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 1: how they managed to survive.

1676
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:07,920
Speaker 2: A smurf like society. Could you tell us a little

1677
01:34:07,960 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 2: bit more about your work and where we can find it.

1678
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:13,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I have a book out right now which

1679
01:34:13,400 --> 01:34:15,320
Speaker 1: is called a Rome of One Zone, which tells the

1680
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:18,720
Speaker 1: story of the whole Roman Empire from foundation to the

1681
01:34:18,720 --> 01:34:22,120
Speaker 1: fall of the West, through the lives of twenty one random,

1682
01:34:22,240 --> 01:34:25,599
Speaker 1: semi random women. Very few empresses, so mostly just women

1683
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:27,600
Speaker 1: who lived in the Roman Empire at different times and

1684
01:34:27,600 --> 01:34:30,720
Speaker 1: how their lives are affected by war and politics. It's

1685
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: got no battles in it and very few senators, so

1686
01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:39,400
Speaker 1: it's only fun stuff and no like boring stuff. Yeah,

1687
01:34:39,560 --> 01:34:42,320
Speaker 1: and you can buy that in any good bookshop. I

1688
01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: also have one about which has gladiatorial games in it,

1689
01:34:44,960 --> 01:34:47,479
Speaker 1: called A Fatal Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum,

1690
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:50,599
Speaker 1: which is about Roman murder and has a whole chapter

1691
01:34:50,600 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 1: about gladiatorial games if you want to know how they

1692
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:54,880
Speaker 1: really worked, in which I take the pace out of

1693
01:34:54,920 --> 01:34:58,679
Speaker 1: Russell Crowe. And I also have my own podcast which

1694
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,880
Speaker 1: is called History Is Sexy. We answer questions that are

1695
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:04,000
Speaker 1: sent to us by listeners who would like us to

1696
01:35:04,040 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 1: research a question they have about history that they don't

1697
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:09,560
Speaker 1: have the time or inclination to research themselves.

1698
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:13,840
Speaker 2: Amazing oers, thank you so much for joining us, and like,

1699
01:35:14,040 --> 01:35:17,519
Speaker 2: please come back for Caligula, Please have me back. Oh

1700
01:35:17,640 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 2: my heart is now set on it. It's done, so

1701
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:20,599
Speaker 2: it's happening.

1702
01:35:21,479 --> 01:35:25,439
Speaker 3: You can follow us on Instagram at Bechdelcast. You can

1703
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:31,479
Speaker 3: subscribe to our Patreon aka Matreon, where you can get

1704
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 3: access to two bonus episodes every single month, plus the

1705
01:35:35,200 --> 01:35:39,200
Speaker 3: entire back catalog of over one hundred and fifty bonus episodes,

1706
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:44,800
Speaker 3: all on hilarious, amazing, brilliant, genius themes that Jamie and

1707
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:48,520
Speaker 3: I concoct in our little laboratory.

1708
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:51,160
Speaker 2: Oh and you're wondering are they going to cover Hot

1709
01:35:51,280 --> 01:35:55,679
Speaker 2: Frosty on the Matreon in December? Well, I'm really pushing

1710
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 2: for it. I'm really pushing for it. The more I

1711
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:01,440
Speaker 2: learn about Hot Frosty, the more it begging for discourse.

1712
01:36:02,520 --> 01:36:04,800
Speaker 2: And you can get our merch over at teapublic dot com.

1713
01:36:04,840 --> 01:36:09,880
Speaker 2: Slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your holiday And

1714
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:15,040
Speaker 2: on that note, we saved Rome. Were you not entertained?

1715
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:17,680
Speaker 1: This note what you came for?

1716
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:20,719
Speaker 2: Bye Bye.

1717
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,200
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by

1718
01:36:28,280 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited

1719
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:35,439
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike

1720
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:39,920
Speaker 3: Kaplan with vocals by Katherine Volskrosenski. Our logo in merch

1721
01:36:40,080 --> 01:36:43,040
Speaker 3: is designed by Jamie Loftis and a special thanks to

1722
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:47,519
Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo. For more information about the podcast, please visit

1723
01:36:47,560 --> 01:36:49,560
Speaker 3: linktree slash Bechdel Cast