1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: Something major happened this week breaking news out of Washington, 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: an unprecedented leak from the Supreme Courts the draft opinion, 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: which shows its conservative majority of justices is ready to 5 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: overturn Roe v. Wade. The Court confirmed the document is authentic, 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: but says it does not represent a decision nor the 7 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 1: final position of any justice. This could be the most 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: consequential opinion in decades. Hundreds of protesters rallied outside the 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: Supreme Court Monday evening afternows of the Court's draft opinion broke, 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: and those protests continued all over the country on Tuesday, 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: including one right here in New York City. A couple 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: of my producers and I headed to Fully Square in 13 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: Lower Manhattan so we could see and hear how abortion 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: rights supporters are responding to the shocking is Tell me 15 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: why you wanted to come down here today? Not only 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: because I've had an abortion, but my daughter is twenty 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: one and this is the world she's in right now. 18 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: So how could we not be here. Anywhere where more 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: than two people are gathered for the sake of reproductive 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: rights is a gathering I want to be at. I 21 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: came out because I love women. I love the rights 22 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: to their their own autonomy. I love the rights of humanity, 23 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: and I love the laws of humanity as well. It 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: was important that people were in the streets today, but 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: this cannot be another one day protest where we register 26 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: our descent and then go home and let them strip 27 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: us of our right to be fully human. And if 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: I asked you about your side, it says I survived 29 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: in a legal abortion in Birmingham, Alabama, in nineteen sixty nine. 30 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: I woke up this morning I felt like I had 31 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: time traveled. I can't believe we're going back to this. 32 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 1: We're just regressing so far. And do you remember what 33 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: it was like the Grovy Way was decided? And can 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: you describe it for people who don't. I can remember 35 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,119 Speaker 1: being in college and knowing of girls in my college 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: who had back alley abortions, and some of them suffered 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: grave consequences as a result. There are people finding out 38 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: that they are pregnant and they don't necessarily want to be, 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: or they didn't plan to be, or they're thinking about 40 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: what they're gonna do um and I can't imagine being 41 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 1: in that situation. Right now at the end of the day, 42 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: like a lot of people are lonely and feel like 43 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: they're alone in a decision or in a problem or 44 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: uh So, coming to where there's like thousands of people 45 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: are like hundreds of people is just like reaffirming the 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: fact that we are not wrong. I don't believe this 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 1: is an accident, and I don't believe that this is 48 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: all of a sudden So for me, Texas was the 49 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: wake up call and since then it's been pretty rough 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: for my mental health. How are you guys feeling after 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: this gathering? It feels great empowering. Also, like we also 52 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: know that coming here is just not the end of it. 53 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: That's why Thursday we're calling for nationwide strikes, no school, 54 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: no work. You know, if you're calling sick to work, 55 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: say you're sick of the patriarchy. We're both in law 56 00:03:22,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: school right now, and so it's important for us to 57 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: come out here and do this and do our civic 58 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: duty to protest and hopefully use our legal careers to 59 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: undo whatever the hell is happening right now. This is 60 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: the biggest privilege to be here for democracy, for the 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: rights of women. I grew I raised my children in 62 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: South in Atlanta, and I just moved to New York 63 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: and this is how it's supposed to be likely here. 64 00:03:51,480 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 1: I am any general call to action. This is a 65 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: fine alarm fire of my friends. This is a time 66 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: to act, and this is not the time to be silent, 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: because silence is right now when ree poem rights are 68 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: under attack, what do we do? The news of the 69 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: leak draft and its language was stunning, but the fact 70 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: is it wasn't unexpected given the courts conservative majority. In fact, 71 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: in anticipation of the official ruling which is expected to 72 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 1: come down in late June, my producer Lauren Hansen, and 73 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: I have been busy putting together an in depth and 74 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: nuanced dive into the history and future of abortion access 75 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: in this country. We've talked to countless people on the topic, 76 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: abortion doctors, clinic staff, activists on the ground, reproductive justice leaders, historians, 77 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: people who have had abortions, and so many more. It's 78 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: been months in the making and it's coming out in 79 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: just a few weeks. In the meantime, today, right now, 80 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: we need to address the big abortion news this week, 81 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: and to do so, we connected with one of the 82 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: legal experts from our series, Mary Ziggler. Mary not only 83 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: helped us understand the league, but what the draft actually 84 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: means for the upcoming road decision. It feels kind of cavalier. 85 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: It feels as if these justices are are siloed right 86 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: from people who disagree with them in ways that are consequential. Um, 87 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: and that we see unfolding. Now we'll have more with 88 00:05:52,800 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: Mary Ziggler right after this. Mary Ziggler is one of 89 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: the foremost experts on the long history of abortion and 90 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: the law. So, Mary, have you had a chance to 91 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: look over the draft opinion? Yeah? And what was your reaction? Um? 92 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: I mean, in some ways, it's not surprising given what 93 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: we heard at the oral argument in December. This is 94 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: sort of what I was expected at the same expecting 95 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: at the same time, I think I kind of can't 96 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: help but be surprised because I spend a lot of 97 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 1: time as someone who studies this talking to people with 98 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: different views on abortion, and anyone, regardless of their opinion 99 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: on abortion, should understand that what this is is going 100 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: to be a very big deal for a very lot 101 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: of people. Um. And this opinion, it feels like it's 102 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: certain by people who think this is an easy decision 103 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: this is not really something that requires a lot of 104 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: soul searching. UM. And that's really really striking. I think 105 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: it feels kind of cavalier. Um. It feels it feels 106 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: as if these justices are are siloed right from people 107 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: who disagree with them in ways that are consequential, Um 108 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: that we see unfolding now. Politico called this draft a 109 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: quote full throated, unflinching repudiation of the seventy three decision. 110 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: Do you agree? Oh yeah, there's no question. I mean 111 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: it's I don't know how much more full throated or 112 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: repudiation you could have, so that that characterization of the 113 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: draft is absolutely right. Having said that, how close will 114 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: the opinion itself resemble this draft? Is there a chance 115 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: that the language that's Justice Alito used in writing it 116 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: could be softened or altered to be less of a repudiation? Absolutely? 117 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: I mean this draft is from February. UM. We know 118 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: historically when UM planned Parenthod versus Casey, the Court abortion 119 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: decision UM came out. There were leaks that reported the 120 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: Court was going to reverse Row, and we know at 121 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: least one justice changed their mind on that matter. Between 122 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: the time of those leaks and the time of a 123 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: final decision. So it's it's even possible the votes don't 124 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: come out the same way. UM, I would be surprised 125 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: by that, But I think it's it's more likely that 126 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: some of the language in this opinion the final opinion 127 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: may change or be softened. Um. The effect of the 128 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: leak is actually interesting because you could imagine some of 129 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: the justices being more reluctant to make those changes because 130 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: they don't want to be perceived to be caving to 131 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: public pressure. So how the leak ultimately um shapes what's 132 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: going to happen in terms of the final opinion is 133 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: is a really interesting question given the makeup of the 134 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 1: current court. Even if Chief Justice Roberts uh does not 135 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: agree with this, it is still potentially and likely a 136 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 1: five for decision, is it not. It is unless Chief 137 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: Justice John roberts decides that for the good of the 138 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: Court he's going to join the majority to make the 139 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: court look more unified. But I mean, I doubt that 140 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: that would change people's perception of this as a as 141 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: a partisan issue because all of the six justices should 142 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: Justice Roberts joined that majority would be Republican nominee. So 143 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: whether it's fiber six. It's going to be similar kind 144 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: of optics. I was going to say, though, My point 145 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: is it is a fatal complaint, isn't it totally? Yeah? 146 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I hate to say there's never 147 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: a possibility because Plan Pedrotorn versus Casey happened, but I 148 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: would be flabbery gasted and shocked if the Supreme Court 149 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: doesn't overall row um in June, right, I mean, I 150 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: would be pretty blown away. So, I mean, you can 151 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: never say never because wild things happened, but it would 152 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: be anyone who's been paying attention to this would be 153 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: very surprised if that were not to happen. In June, 154 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: Justice Alito wrote Row was egregiously wrong from the start. 155 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: Its reasoning was exceptionally weak, and the decision has had 156 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: damaging consequences, and far from bringing about a national settlement 157 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: of the abortion issue, Row and Casey have inflame debate 158 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: and deepened division. Your reaction, I mean, one of the 159 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: interesting things is that in an opinion that spends so 160 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: much time on history, the comments that the draft makes 161 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: about inflaming opinion are without any historical support. I mean, 162 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: the idea that Row is what left us with our 163 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: current political divide um is something that absolves a lot 164 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: of people, including the members of the current Supreme Court, 165 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: of responsibility for inflaming that divide um. The abortion debate 166 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: proceeded Row Um, it will long outlive Dobbs. It would 167 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: It would be great if the Supreme Court could simply 168 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: wave a magical on and we would all get along 169 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: about abortion. That that's never been the way it is, 170 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 1: and it will be the way it is now. Um. 171 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: And the idea that row is egregiously wrong. I think 172 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: again hearkens back to the fact that for these justices, 173 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: this is not something that requires a lot of thought. Potentially, 174 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: this is something that's obvious, and that's likely to make 175 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: people even more bitter and unhappy who who support aversion rights, 176 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:49,719 Speaker 1: because this will not feel as if it was a 177 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: kind of thoughtful, difficult but ultimately necessary conservative decision. This 178 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: is going to feel like it was something that was automatic. Um. 179 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: And that's I think going to make it sit less 180 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 1: well with some people. It sounds as if Justice A. 181 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: Leado is opposed to Roe v. Wade because he believes 182 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,599 Speaker 1: that abortion was never sort of spoken about in the Constitution. 183 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: There is no right to an abortion. Why, in your 184 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: view is that a specious argument? Well, I think that 185 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: the main problem with that argument is simply that it 186 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: proves too much right. Because if the argument Justice Leado 187 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: makes is essentially that if a right isn't in the 188 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: text of the Constitution, and if something wasn't recognized as 189 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: a right at the time the fourteen Commitment was ratified, 190 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: then it isn't a right. So then the question becomes, well, 191 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: what else wasn't recognized as a right at the time 192 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: the fourteen Commendment was written? Um, interracial marriage was broadly criminal. 193 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 1: States were beginning to more vigorously criminalize same sex sexual 194 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: intimacy and enforce those bands. Um say, the federal government 195 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: had criminalized contraception and materials on sex education. Um, why 196 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: it laws on voting for people of color were changing 197 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: in negative and rapid ways. And so if that, if 198 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: that's really the guide, the question is why is row different? Um. 199 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: Justice Alito's answer in the draft seems to be that 200 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: abortion effects fetal life, and that fetal life is uniquely valuable. 201 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: But then, of course that's going to open the door 202 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: to the argument that abortion is unconstitutional. That this isn't 203 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 1: simply a matter of letting states each have their say 204 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: through the democratic process, that this is something that the 205 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: Supreme Court is going to intervene in yet again by 206 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 1: saying abortion has to be criminal. So either way you 207 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: look at it, um, I think the court sense that 208 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: this is just something that the Court can wash its 209 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: hands of is is disingenuous. I think the Court will 210 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: be encouraging one set of challenges or another, if not both. 211 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 1: So do you think this will ultimately lead to a 212 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: Supreme Court decision outlying abortion period, no matter what states 213 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: want to do or what state legislator, how state legislatures vote. 214 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: I think that the Court in this draft is not 215 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: closing the door on that possibility, and we already know 216 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: that people in the anti abortion movement are making that argument. 217 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: So whether the Court is receptive to it, I think 218 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: remains to be seen. But this is certainly if this 219 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: app ends up being something like the final opinion, that's 220 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 1: going to supercharge efforts to get the Court to declare 221 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: abortion and constitutional because people in the anti abortion movement 222 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: are going to, I think correctly view that as an 223 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: encouraging sign. What does this portend for other pieces or 224 00:13:15,040 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: other Supreme Court decisions that have been handed down visa 225 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: the things like gay marriage, etcetera. Well, the Court in 226 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: this draft tries, I think, in a sort of half 227 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: hearted way to distinguish those things, right, But I think, well, 228 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: do you think this is the case of protesting too much? Yeah? 229 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: I do, And I mean we've seen this on the 230 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: progressive side before. Of course, when the Supreme Court struck 231 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: down bands on sodomy, the court made a point of saying, well, 232 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: sort of marriage is different, right, And then two that 233 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: was in two thousand three, and the Court did recognize 234 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: the right to same sex marriage. So the best way 235 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: to read that language is the Court is not going 236 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: to overrule those decisions today. But does that mean they're 237 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: going to overrule them in five years? Who knows, because 238 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: the reasoning is the same. I mean, if again, our 239 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 1: guide is what was happening in nineteenth century America. That 240 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: was when you know, women vote right, I mean, there 241 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: are a lot of things that were different in nineteenth 242 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: century American. If that's going to be our guide about 243 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: the contour of constitutional rights, and if our sense of 244 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: what constitutional memory comes from is just the black letter 245 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: of the law, Um, it's not clear what the limiting 246 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: principle is going to be. And we know that Justices 247 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 1: Alito and Thomas have already called into question um the 248 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: correctness of the Supreme Court's decision recognizing the right for 249 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: same sex couples to marry. We know that Republican lawmakers 250 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: during Katangi Brown Jackson's confirmation hearings have called that that 251 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: precedent into questions. So it's coming, I mean, it's it's 252 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: just a question of whether the Court goes for it, 253 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: and whether the justices, who are you know, in the 254 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: conservative coalition the least far to the right, want to 255 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: embark on a mission of dismantling a wide variety of 256 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: precedence and not just Brow. There's reason to think that 257 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: would happen, because, of course we know Row is the 258 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: most recognized Supreme Court opinion. And so if this is 259 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: how the justices behave when everybody is paying attention, you know, 260 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: are they really going to behave differently when people aren't 261 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: paying attention? I would I would submit the answer to 262 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: that is probably not. Can you tell us anything about 263 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: Justice Alito that would help us understand his position when 264 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: it comes to this draft decision? Yeah, I mean Justice 265 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: Alito often approaches things. I mean there's a sort of 266 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: it's hard to describe, but I think intellectually he's very 267 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: self confident and there's almost a sense of um of 268 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: offense he takes when people disagree with him. There's a 269 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: tone in this draft that it almost ridicules the reasoning 270 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: of Row and the people who support it. And that's 271 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: in keeping with other decisions Justice Aldo has rendered. UM. 272 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: We know as well the Justice Leado has a long 273 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: history of being fairly far the right on abortion issues. 274 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: So when he was a justice at the Third Circuit 275 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: Court of Appeals, he was the only justice to hold 276 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: that Pennsylvania could obligate um women and other people who 277 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: are pregnant to tell their their husbands before getting an abortion. UM. 278 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: We know that early in his political career, when he 279 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: was working in republic and presidential administrations, he helped write 280 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: briefs um In laying out strategy to undo Row. So 281 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: intellectually and personally, this draft is not a surprise coming 282 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: from him. I think the fact that this this would 283 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: be the voice of the court speaking would be more surprising, 284 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: because this, of course will have ramifications for the courts 285 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: institutional reputation. If this is how the Court ultimately ends 286 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: up um for the legacy of all the justices who 287 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 1: signed this opinion, not just for Justice Alito. UM. So 288 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: we know kind of in terms of where the justices fall, 289 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: the Justice Alito and Thomas tend to be on the 290 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: courts for this right flank. But of course all of 291 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: the justices who are part of this opinion. UM, it's 292 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: fair to say this will be their legacy. People will 293 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: likely not remember almost anything else these justices do once 294 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: rovweight is gone. I think this will be the defining 295 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: momentum for this court and everyone on it. In fact, 296 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: Justice Kavanaugh during the confirmation process assured members of Congress 297 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: that he recognized and appreciated precedent and would not tamper 298 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: with Growthy Wade, what do you make of that? Well, 299 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: I think Justice Kavanaugh is a smart man who, you know, 300 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: didn't really ever issue any guarantees, he said. I think 301 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 1: Susan Collins, who to whom you may be referring in particular, 302 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: wanted to understand him to mean a certain thing, and 303 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: he was vague enough that she could hear what she 304 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: wanted to hear. But he never made any specific guarantees 305 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: that he would do anything with Row And I think 306 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 1: anyone who knew his background or knew the reasons he 307 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: had been chosen would be utterly unsurprised by the fact 308 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 1: that he's voting this way. Um. I don't know if 309 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: Susan Collins knew she was lying to herself, but she 310 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: was lying to herself, right, I mean, I don't know 311 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: if this was a case of her lying to everyone 312 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: else because she already didn't believe what brick Havana was saying. 313 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: I think it's more likely that she thought brick Havanaugh 314 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 1: was since here um and simply was You know, it 315 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: was a case of wishful thinking, I would imagine more 316 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: than anything else, because most people who have been paying 317 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 1: attention to Justice Kavina are not surprised by where he's 318 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: coming out on this. Justice Alito claims there is no 319 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 1: right constitutional right to an abortion, but others have questioned. 320 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: I guess that the foundation of Roe v. Wade in 321 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,880 Speaker 1: terms of under the guise of the right to privacy, Um, 322 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: in in terms that sort of the average person can understand. 323 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell us the foundational principles behind Roe vi 324 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 1: Wade and why in some circles they have been controversial? Sure? So, 325 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: Ruby Wade was not based on the text of the Constitution, 326 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: which you know doesn't mention a right to abortion or frankly, 327 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: a right to marry or a lot of other rights. 328 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: And it was right to vote right. It wasn't based 329 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: on the history of the Constitution because, as Justice Leader 330 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: rightly points out, at the time the Nineteenth Amendment was 331 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 1: being written, no one would have thought there was a 332 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: right to abortion. The Court instead looked at its own precedence, 333 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: which looked at and developed ideas about autonomy and bodily 334 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: integrity related to things like marriage and creation. Um. And 335 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: that was controversial because I think people thought that by 336 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: not looking at texture history, the Court was sort of 337 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: leaving Row open to more criticism. UM. Ruth for the 338 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: late Ruth Vader Gainsburgh, thought it would be better for 339 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: the Court to have relied on equal protection cause and 340 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: the idea of sex discrimination to to create a foundation 341 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 1: for abortion rights. It's worth emphasizing that that this draft 342 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: is not just an exercise and saying Row was wrong. 343 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: It's an exercise and saying there is no foundation for 344 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: abortion rights full stop, no matter what you come up with. 345 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: And the Court explicitly says there can be no equal 346 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: protection rationale um, ironically, because the Court's precedents say there 347 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: can be no rationale. The reason that's ironical, course, is 348 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: the Court is dismantling fifty years of precedent um and 349 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: then saying part of the reason that that has to 350 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,159 Speaker 1: happen is because of other precedents, saying that discrimination on 351 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: the basis of pregnancy is not the same thing as 352 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: the basis a discrimination on the basis of sex. So 353 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: this is the Court essentially trying to close the door 354 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,119 Speaker 1: to any future constitutional argument for abortion rights, not just 355 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: the ones that Rode relied on. Have he said that 356 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: would it have been a stronger UH decision had it 357 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: been based on as the late Justice Ginsburg had urged 358 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: the equal protection statue, Absolutely, we would have been a 359 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: stronger opinion. I think the drafts suggests that it ultimately 360 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't have mattered, and that if these were the people 361 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: on the court, they probably would have overruled Row anyway. 362 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: It would have made their job harder, right, It would 363 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: have made it harder for them to say, well, look 364 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: here all these progressives who support a worship rights who 365 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: have also criticized this decision. But I think at the 366 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: end of the day. This was about more than just 367 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: the court's reasoning, although that was certainly important, it goes 368 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: well beyond that. Did you think there was a chance 369 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: that they would chip away at Row and not want 370 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,960 Speaker 1: it overturned completely? Um? No, I mean not long term. 371 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: Like I think before oral argument in December, I was 372 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: of the opinion that so one spread cabinal was confirmed 373 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: to the Court. I thought it was a lock that 374 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 1: they were going to overturn Row, but I didn't know 375 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: when it was going to happen. And I thought, from 376 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 1: the standpoint of just conserving the courts institute legitimacy, there 377 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: was some value in, you know, and going through the 378 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: motions and appearing to take this seriously and making it 379 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: seem as if it was not just an automatic that 380 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 1: when you put certain people on the court you get 381 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: partisan outcomes. Um. So, I'm not surprised by the fact 382 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: that it's happening. I'm surprised by the timing. Um. Chief 383 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: Justice Roberts clearly thought that there was a chance that 384 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: the Court would potentially do this in multiple steps, or 385 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: maybe even stop at getting rid of viability. There's no 386 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: sign whatsoever that the justices have any interest in doing that. 387 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: It seems that we're headed to a kind of absolute 388 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: overruling and one that's pretty rapid. What is the impact 389 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: of this decision, It's hard to overstate. I mean, they're 390 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 1: going to be impacts on lots of people's lives, people 391 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: who can be pregnant. Um, just as was the case 392 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: with the war on drugs. We would expect those impacts 393 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: to be felt the most acutely by people who are 394 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: in the most heavily policed communities, who are the people 395 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: are most likely to be found out if they're having abortions. 396 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: There will be people impacts on people who never seek abortions, 397 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: because doctors will be reluctant to treat ectopic pregnancies or 398 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: incomplete miscarriages or other things that may be perceived as 399 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: abortion because they're unwilling to lose their licenses or go 400 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: to prison. Um. It's going to affect people in blue 401 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: states who are going to see people traveling from out 402 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 1: of state to seek abortions. UM. It's going to affect 403 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,199 Speaker 1: doctors in blue states who may be potentially sued or 404 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: charged with a crime in red states. It's going to 405 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: shake up the two mid terms. It's going to shake 406 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: up the presidential elections, and you know as a historian, 407 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 1: and it also is going to have unpredictable effects, right. 408 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: I think the Supreme Court felt very confident in nine 409 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: that it knew what would happen after Robi Wade was reversed. 410 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: And of course we know fifty years later that they 411 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: were absolutely wrong. Um, and there's no reason to think 412 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: that we can absolutely predict what's going to happen after 413 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: this decision in much the same way. How are they wrong? 414 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: Can you give us some insight into that? Yeah? I 415 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: mean Justice Blackman had a clipping in his files that said, essentially, 416 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, seventy something percent of Americans think abortion should 417 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: be a decision between a woman and her doctor. The 418 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: numbers were very similar then as now, and so he thought, okay, well, 419 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: if if the Court says it worshons a decision between 420 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: a woman and her doctor, and there's a sound constitutional 421 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: foundation for that, people are going to just accept that 422 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: and move on. And we know that didn't happen. This 423 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: Supreme Court somehow seems to think that if it sends 424 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: this back to the States with lots of winks and nudges, 425 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: that maybe other precedents can be overturned and maybe if 426 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 1: people personhood is going to be recognized, this is going 427 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: to go away. When that opinion will be running against 428 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: popular opinion, that's insane, right, So people are sort of 429 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: like this is all over just really whether their appro 430 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: choice or per life, are not paying attention like this 431 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: is going to just be the opening salvo in a 432 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: much much longer battle. Um and people I would imagine 433 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: who support a worsion rates are going to be in 434 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: this for the long haul. Two and we may be 435 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,959 Speaker 1: looking at, you know, decades down the road a Supreme 436 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: Court decision reinstituting a worship rates. So if the Court 437 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 1: thinks it can put an end to this one way 438 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: or another, or it can remove itself from the conversation, 439 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: it has another thing coming. Well, what about some kind 440 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: of congressional action kind of ying a woman's right to 441 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: choose or reproductive rights that would uh do an end 442 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: run around the Supreme Court? How possible? Is that It's 443 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: it's not possible given the votes at the moment. And 444 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: now it's trought with peril because we know that Republicans 445 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: have you know, announced plans that if they retake the 446 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: House and Senate in two and a Republican is in 447 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: the White House and the filibuster is gone, which is 448 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: what it would take to pass federal legislation protecting abortion rights. 449 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: That Republicans would use their opportunity to criminalize abortion rights nationwide, 450 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: in other words, to ensure that blue as well as 451 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: red states cannot allow abortions. And so I think the 452 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: question for Democrats is going to be, you know, how 453 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 1: confident are they, um, if they're going to get rid 454 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: of the filibuster, that things are not going to get 455 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: really bad thereafter? Um? Because this will, of course, when 456 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 1: it comes to abortion, raise the stakes dramatically, not just 457 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: of state and local elections in terms of like who 458 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: is your prosecutor they're going to use resources to prosecute 459 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: people for abortion? Um, but also you know, national elections, 460 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: because Congress may be in a position now, you know, 461 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: either to codify abortion rights or qudify fetal protections. Well, 462 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: what about taking action prior to the mid terms when 463 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: there are Democratic majorities barely you know, raiser than in 464 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,239 Speaker 1: the Senate but in the House. Uh, could some kind 465 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: of action be taken prior to that? And do you 466 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: think this will change what we see happen in the 467 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: mid term elections because suddenly sixty of the population has 468 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: been galvanized to get out and vote. Yeah, it mean well, 469 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean I think the question, and this is really 470 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: going to be for people listening to this, is like, 471 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: how much do you care? Right? We know that seventy 472 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: people say they don't want road to be overturned, but 473 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: when the rubber meets the road, like, is that a 474 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: basis people are actually going to vote right? Or is 475 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: it going to turn into like, well, I don't really 476 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,719 Speaker 1: like this person's position on abortion, but I like their 477 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: position on taxes, or I like their position on still 478 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: in the blank other issue. So it really depends on 479 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,719 Speaker 1: how people operational is how they're feeling about this decision, 480 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: and we just don't know the answer to that. Interestingly, 481 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 1: both people who are pro life and pro choice are 482 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: saying they feel this helps them. And that's how unpredictable 483 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: it is. Right, everybody is like this is great for us, 484 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 1: because we don't really know who has that right. And 485 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: of course, if you're listening to this, you get to decide, right, 486 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: I mean, you get to vote, You get to decide 487 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: if you're going to be politically active on this um. 488 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: And so I don't know the answer to that, but 489 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 1: that's going to be in the hands of the people 490 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 1: who are listening to this. In fact, just as a 491 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 1: Lada rights in this draft, women are not without electoral 492 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: or political power. At the percentage of women who registered 493 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 1: to vote and cast ballots is consistently higher than the 494 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: percentage of men who do so. Right, I mean, and 495 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: so be careful what you wish were right. But I 496 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: think that's that's right, and so um whether and I 497 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: think that's really um the question. And I think it's 498 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: important emphasize not just what happens in Congress, but what 499 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: happens in state elections, because one thing that's pretty clear 500 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: for anyone who studied this is the progressives have been 501 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: getting massively outstrategized in eight elections for a long time, 502 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: which is one of the reasons why states have become 503 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: these laboratories of anti abortion legislation. Um. And that's true 504 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: in states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Florida and so on that 505 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,360 Speaker 1: are politically contested, not just in red states. And it's 506 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: true in red states that seem to have majorities that 507 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: are not particularly opposed to abortion. And so it's if 508 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 1: this is an issue you care about. It's worth paying 509 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: attention to state and local races, even when those aren't 510 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: kind of the glamor races you're hearing the most about 511 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: in the news. After the break, we go back to 512 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: the abortion rights protest in New York City to hear 513 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 1: one woman's heroine story of her illegal abortion in nineteen 514 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: sixty nine. Remember that protester from the top of this episode, 515 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: the one who had the sign that read I survived 516 00:27:54,320 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: in illegal abortion in Birmingham, Alabama in nineteen sixty nine. 517 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: The protester's name Angela Fremont. She spoke with my producer 518 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,880 Speaker 1: Lauren Hansen, and just to note, this story contains a 519 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: detailed description of an illegal abortion. I was living in 520 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: Miami when I got pregnant with my grandmother. And when 521 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: I I couldn't couldn't tell my grandmother that I was pregnant. Um, 522 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 1: I had a I had a job. I was eighteen 523 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 1: years old and I had a job working at a 524 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: land development company, and the nurse that worked there gave 525 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: me a phone number, and I went to a pay 526 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: phone outside on the street, and the phone number that 527 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: I called was a doctor in Alabama. And that's how 528 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: I wound up in Alabama, and the doctor when I 529 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: got there examined me and said, you're too far along. 530 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do the abortion. Yeah, he said, 531 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: but I know somebody. So it was like a bait 532 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: and s which kind of thing. And uh, I don't 533 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 1: think he ever intended to do the abortion. He just 534 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: passed me along to this abortionist who drove me out 535 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 1: to down a dirt road to a shack where there 536 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: was two sawhorses and a sheet of plywood and three 537 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: dogs that had been locked up inside the shack with 538 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: urine all over the floor, and a rubber hose. Um 539 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: that she explained she was going to push through my 540 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: cervix into my uterus and then use cotton batting two 541 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: support the hose and keep it from slipping out, and 542 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: that I had to keep it there for thirty six 543 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: hours and that air would pass through the hose and 544 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: I would spontaneously abort. Yeah. Um, but after about probably 545 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: thirty hours, I was hemorrhaging, and um I had gone 546 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: back to Tallahassee to be with friends there, and um, 547 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: they got scared. They pulled out the cotton batting and 548 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: I was a mess. I had a fever, and they 549 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: put me in the car and dropped me off outside 550 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: the hospital and the hospital that I was brought to. 551 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: Um Oh, things are getting really exciting here. Um Uh. 552 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: They did a d n C on me and um 553 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: the police eventually gave up questioning me, asking me who 554 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: had done this to me? And I in my mind, 555 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: I thought if I if I told them that somebody 556 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: else had done this that um I was, I'd be 557 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:05,719 Speaker 1: implicating somebody that I would go to jail. So I 558 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: I So I just kept saying that I did it 559 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: to myself. Having an illegal abortion is something no one 560 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: should have to go through. And um in three after 561 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: Roe v. Wade, Um, we all celebrated. We were so happy. 562 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: It was such a it was such a national relief 563 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: for women. It's really important to talk about this because 564 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: it's it's super fucked up right now. This is really 565 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: not good because women in Oklahoma need to have access, 566 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: and in Texas and in North Dakota and in South 567 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: Dakota and in twenty six states across the country. At 568 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: least they need to have access. You are safe here. 569 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: It's not fair and we have to speak out. There 570 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 1: will be so much more to tackle in our special 571 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,479 Speaker 1: series on the End of Row and the history and 572 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: future of abortion access. The special series launches June two, 573 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: right here in My Next Question feed. Don't miss it. 574 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Mary Ziggler and to all 575 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: of the protesters who took the time to speak with us. 576 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of I 577 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: Heart Media and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers Army, 578 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. 579 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is 580 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For more information about 581 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, 582 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: Wake Up Paul, go to Katie Curry dot com. You 583 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: can also find me at Katie Curiic on Instagram and 584 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: all my social media channels. For more podcasts from I 585 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, 586 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.