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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. For earlier access to these episodes, access

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Speaker 1: to Ask Me Anything sessions, and extended breakdowns of historical

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Speaker 1: and current events, Please consider joining our Warning Premium community

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Speaker 1: by clicking the link in the description to this episode.

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Speaker 1: I am thrilled today to be joined by a very

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Speaker 1: very close friend of mine, someone I deeply admire, one

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Speaker 1: of the most interesting people I have ever known, somebody

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Speaker 1: I trust and love completely, Father Brad Easterbrook, who is

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Speaker 1: coming to us from Rome. How are you, father, Brad?

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Speaker 2: Doing great? Steve, It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're going to have a conversation that goes through

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Speaker 1: your very very interesting career. But I thought I would

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Speaker 1: start out by sharing this story about you from the

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Speaker 1: John McCain campaign, because before you were a Catholic priest,

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Speaker 1: you were a very, very able and skilled political staffer.

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Speaker 1: And as it came to be, it was August of

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight and Sarah Palin became the Republican

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Speaker 1: nominee for Vice President of the United States. And as

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Speaker 1: things would play out, you and I wound up in Sedona, Arizona,

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Speaker 1: where I had to take over her debate prep. And

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Speaker 1: this was in two thousand and eight. And you know

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Speaker 1: a lot of people probably today don't realize that two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight we were still using video tape, right,

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Speaker 1: it was the pre digital era. So we recorded this

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Speaker 1: debate prep and it was horrific, beyond any measure of

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Speaker 1: my ability to explain in the English English language, a

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Speaker 1: spectacle of incoherent of the highest level. And I said

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Speaker 1: to you, I called you Aside, and I said, take

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Speaker 1: that tape, destroy that tape, pull that tape out, cut

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Speaker 1: that tape to pieces, boil it in water, chop it

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Speaker 1: up some more, put it into a federal Express package,

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Speaker 1: and send it to my house and never lose personal

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Speaker 1: custody of that tape. And that's exactly what you did.

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Speaker 1: And all these years later, I have here, I have

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Speaker 1: bred I have the Sarah Palin shredded debate tapes from

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight that you personally microwaved, threaded and

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Speaker 1: FedEx And what I'm gonna do is for everyone who

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Speaker 1: appears on the podcast, are going to get a paperweight,

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Speaker 1: a clear paperwaight with some of the shredded tape in

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Speaker 1: the middle of it, to commemorate that that factor in

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Speaker 1: American politics. But you have you have been around presidential candidates.

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Speaker 1: You have been around the Pope, and you have served

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Speaker 1: your country as a naval officer. You were one of

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Speaker 1: the leading defense attorneys in the United States Navy in

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Fleet as Lieutenant Brad Easterbrook, and you still

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Speaker 1: serve in the United States Navy and will ultimately return

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Speaker 1: to active duty service after your parish assignment in San

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Speaker 1: Diego as a chaplain. I think you hope to deploy

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Speaker 1: with the Marines. But an interesting career.

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Speaker 2: It's been a lengthy career and as you as you

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Speaker 2: have for counted there, there have been a lot of

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Speaker 2: exciting and interesting adventures. You know, I was thinking about

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Speaker 2: it the other day as I was preparing to come

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Speaker 2: on your program here, and that you and I were

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Speaker 2: one of maybe a handful of people four or five

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Speaker 2: who were in Sedona Areas on a for that debate

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Speaker 2: prep and you know it was it was one of

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Speaker 2: those events. I'll let you describe how it went, but

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Speaker 2: I do I do remember very well that you said,

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Speaker 2: this is one of the most important assignments I've ever

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Speaker 2: given you, is to just to take this tape and

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Speaker 2: send it to me, but destroy it on the way there.

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Speaker 2: And so I did I sliced it and microwaved it

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Speaker 2: and send it to you, and and I can see

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Speaker 2: that you still have it. But you know, it was

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Speaker 2: one of the greatest signers of my life to work

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Speaker 2: on the McCain campaign and to be a part of that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was very, very young, relatively speaking. I

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Speaker 2: was twenty three. We celebrated my twenty fourth birthday in Wassola, Alaska,

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Speaker 2: of all places, in September, and and that was actually

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Speaker 2: the September before the full blown meltdown of the economy

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Speaker 2: and where that went and everything that changed. You know,

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Speaker 2: I was I was thinking. When we first met, it

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Speaker 2: was I was a White House intern. You were the

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Speaker 2: Vice President's communications director, and we were prepping for the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court Justice confirmations. It was the summer of two

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Speaker 2: thousand and five. We were having lunch in the West

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Speaker 2: Wing of the White House, and the world we were

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Speaker 2: discussing at that lunch in two thousand and five was

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Speaker 2: a completely different world than what we were experiencing in

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Speaker 2: the summer of two thousand and eight. So much had

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Speaker 2: changed between five and eight, and then if you think

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Speaker 2: about it, between two thousand and eight and today, so

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Speaker 2: much has changed. I obviously took a different path. One

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Speaker 2: was into the Navy and to serve as a Navy

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Speaker 2: judge advocate, as an attorney in the Navy, and then

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Speaker 2: now as a Catholic priest. But we've maintained a friendship

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Speaker 2: over the years, and I'm very I'm very thankful for

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Speaker 2: having gotten to know you and to to have you

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Speaker 2: as a part of my my life experience. Over these years,

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Speaker 2: a lot has happened and and and yet here we

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Speaker 2: are able to have this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a it's a mutual affection.

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Speaker 2: Believe me.

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Speaker 1: Like I said at the beginning, you are a person

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Speaker 1: who as you go through life's journey, they say the

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Speaker 1: average person will meet ten thousand people over the course

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Speaker 1: of an average life. I suspect that I might be

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Speaker 1: a little bit higher in in that. But when you,

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Speaker 1: when you meet you know that many people over the

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Speaker 1: course of of life, you remember the people who stand

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Speaker 1: out that have high levels of integrity, uh sense of honor,

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Speaker 1: who are good people, and and and that was always you.

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Speaker 1: And your life has gone into direct of service military

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Speaker 1: service part of the United States Navy, deployed in the

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Speaker 1: Fleet and also service as a as a Catholic priest

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Speaker 1: religious service. But let's start with the naval service. I remember,

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Speaker 1: and I always talk to young people about this. People

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Speaker 1: will come up and they'll say, hey, I want to

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Speaker 1: run campaigns. I want to do this, right, I want

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Speaker 1: to get into this field, they they and dependent on

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Speaker 1: where you go, you know, and how elite the school is, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, the kid will be there with the notebook

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Speaker 1: out and tell me what you did in nineteen ninety seven, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's you try to explain that nothing

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Speaker 1: that I did a generation ago is really helpful for

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Speaker 1: you in charting out your path in life. But we

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Speaker 1: had stayed in touch. You went to law school, you

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Speaker 1: were finishing law school. You called me up and remember

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Speaker 1: of the conversation we had, and it was about taking

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Speaker 1: the path less traveled in life. You were not enthusiastic

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Speaker 1: after I think, having worked in the White House, having

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Speaker 1: worked at really and seen it all on a presidential campaign,

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Speaker 1: to go be an associate in a big, big law firm,

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Speaker 1: and so you did something different. Talk about that.

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Speaker 2: You know. I had always admired service, and I was

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Speaker 2: always looking for, I guess, the right opportunity to to

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Speaker 2: say yes to service in the in the US military.

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Speaker 2: I never found before this, Before this time, I hadn't found,

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Speaker 2: you know, what really fit me? Uh until the law.

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Speaker 2: And then I realized, well, I could be a I

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Speaker 2: could serve in the military and be an attorney, and

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Speaker 2: and that seemed to fit me best I had. I

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Speaker 2: had really found military service to be honorable because of

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Speaker 2: the example of my grandfathers. Both of my grandfathers served

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Speaker 2: during World War Two, one as a Navy sailor and

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Speaker 2: the other as a pilot of P thirty eight who

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Speaker 2: served missions over Europe, over North African and Europe. And

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Speaker 2: I found both of my grandfathers to have set an

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Speaker 2: example of what we would call in the Navy, the

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Speaker 2: Navy core values on our courage and commitment. They had

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Speaker 2: a sense of loyalty, a sense of commitment to a

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Speaker 2: sense of an ethical framework to life by which they

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Speaker 2: lived and by which they set for me a model.

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Speaker 2: And so I always admired service, and I wanted I

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Speaker 2: wanted to make that a part of my career path.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to be an attorney and use my

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Speaker 2: law degree. And I found that the jag war, it's

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Speaker 2: jag for judge abbacate general war, the JAG War was

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Speaker 2: something that was adapted to my talent and to my

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Speaker 2: desires to serve. So I made that application. And you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the things that people don't realize is that

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Speaker 2: it's actually it can be very competitive to get into

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Speaker 2: the jag Corps. So it's a there's a process by

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Speaker 2: which you apply, and I I remember that you wrote

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Speaker 2: one of my letters, John McCain wrote one of my

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Speaker 2: letters of recommendation. I ended up being accepted and began

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Speaker 2: my service after law school, first going to San Diego

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Speaker 2: to serve in the in the capacity as a government attorney.

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Speaker 2: So I was a prosecutor and a counselor to commanding

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Speaker 2: officers of various commands in the region, and and then

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Speaker 2: I served for after that. I served that in San

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Speaker 2: Diego for a couple of years, and then after that

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Speaker 2: I served for three years in Japan as a defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: And did you like being a defense attorney? You're good

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Speaker 1: at it?

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Speaker 2: I was good at you know, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was helping modest were the ranked defense attorneys?

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Speaker 2: Well, I you know, I was. I was named Defense

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Speaker 2: Attorney of the Year for the region of the pacifics

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Speaker 2: in Japan, Hawaii, and basically the Broader Asia region. That

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Speaker 2: put me in competition with about ten defense attorneys for

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Speaker 2: that region. And I was also you know, ranked number

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Speaker 2: one out of those ten on two occasions during that period.

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Speaker 1: So you were literally like Lieutenant Kaffey from a few

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Speaker 1: you know, just in the Pacific Fleet.

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Speaker 2: It's that's a dramatic film. But people ask me if

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Speaker 2: if the show JAG's very acurate. I say, you know,

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Speaker 2: actually the show Jag is not very acturd. But then

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Speaker 2: I say, the Few Good Men is approaching some accuracy there,

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Speaker 2: and I found it to be quite accurate. There there

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Speaker 2: were experiences that I would say were analogous to that show.

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Speaker 2: You know. At times, you know, I had to confront

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Speaker 2: those in authority sometimes with what the law required of

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Speaker 2: them and what the Constitution required, and and I found

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Speaker 2: that the role of the Defense Council was very valuable.

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Speaker 2: You know. One of the things that I always thought

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Speaker 2: growing up and then and then as I was preparing

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Speaker 2: to be an attorney in law school, was that I

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Speaker 2: could never be a defense attorney. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: government minded, prosecutorial minded, and and you know, I was

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Speaker 2: the type who might have asked the question like, how

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Speaker 2: do you do it? How do you how are you

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Speaker 2: an offense journey knowing that you know, this is the

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Speaker 2: popular conception, is knowing that your client's guilty. And very

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Speaker 2: often the client is guilty or guilty of something that

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Speaker 2: they've been charged with, but not all the time. And

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Speaker 2: then often they're charged perhaps with too much, or their

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Speaker 2: rights have been violated in some way, and and particularly

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Speaker 2: in the military context, but in every context, everyone is

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Speaker 2: a right to a defense. And going back to the

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Speaker 2: Boston massacre, you know, it's been an honorable profession to

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Speaker 2: serve as defense attorney because if if the if the

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Speaker 2: rights of the defendant and the accused can be violated.

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Speaker 3: If we you know, if we modify the rules in

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Speaker 3: one case, if we can prove someone guilty and put

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Speaker 3: them in prison without beyond reasonable doubt evidence, then we

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Speaker 3: can do it in your case.

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Speaker 2: Then there are going to be people who are innocent

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Speaker 2: or who are who are suffering from some injustice or

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Speaker 2: some violation of the rights. And that could be you,

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Speaker 2: and that could be me. And so as a society,

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Speaker 2: we've decided that there should be this role, and it's

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Speaker 2: a constitutionally protected role for an attorney to have a

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Speaker 2: duty that is singularly for the defense of this person.

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Speaker 2: And and and ultimately, you know, the law is the

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Speaker 2: law is pretty good. We've gone through now hundreds of

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Speaker 2: years of this practice in which we have an adversary

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Speaker 2: aerial system, and justice is done through that system. But

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Speaker 2: what I found was if I hadn't been there, or

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Speaker 2: if another defense attorney hadn't been there, there would have

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Speaker 2: been manifest in justice in many cases. And that's not

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Speaker 2: because of malicious intent. Most of the time, it's just

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Speaker 2: because there's no one looking at the evidence or investigating

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Speaker 2: the case or dealing with the defendant in a way

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Speaker 2: that's mindful of an alternative perspective or a perspective that

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Speaker 2: is seeking perhaps evidence that it conflicts with the evidence

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Speaker 2: before before the court already, but you know that's given

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Speaker 2: by the prosecution. And so what I found was that

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Speaker 2: the system really does work with an active defense, and

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Speaker 2: the role of defense attorney is very valuable. And I

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Speaker 2: was very honored to have served in that context as well.

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Speaker 1: And you served in the fleet as well. You were

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Speaker 1: out on an aircraft carrier, you were on the rock

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Speaker 1: for a while.

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Speaker 2: I had gone underway in the Ronald Reagan. I was

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Speaker 2: never ship's company, but I did serve in that capacity.

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Speaker 2: I was caught it out onto the carrier to do

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Speaker 2: some legal assistance that the ship had to go out faster,

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Speaker 2: I think than expected, and so some of the paperwork

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Speaker 2: and you know, the powers of attorney, wills and trusts

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Speaker 2: that the sailors needed for this deployment had not been

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Speaker 2: prepared at the time. And this was years ago, and

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Speaker 2: so they asked me to assist with that, and so

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Speaker 2: I was caught it out onto the carrier and did

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Speaker 2: some briefings and helped some sailors who needed those documents prepared.

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Speaker 2: At the time, I was running a legal assistance office

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Speaker 2: on Coronado, which was not a bad job. It was

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Speaker 2: essentially an office for sailors to come in and deal

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Speaker 2: with legal needs that involved their relationship with the community,

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Speaker 2: such as you know, landlord tenant issues, wills and trust

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Speaker 2: issues in powis attorney. So I was situated out there

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Speaker 2: on Cornado in a way where I could easily go

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Speaker 2: out with the carrier because the Reagan was was coming

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Speaker 2: in out of port in San Diego.

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Speaker 1: And you you talked about the fact that part of

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Speaker 1: your job is to say to a superior officer on occasion,

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Speaker 1: including high ranking ones. That's illegal, Sir. The Constitution doesn't

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Speaker 1: doesn't permit that. Talk about the role of a military

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Speaker 1: lawyer or advising a military commander about American law, about

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Speaker 1: the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and about the US

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Speaker 1: Constitution and the obligations of that officer to those to

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Speaker 1: those to those things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the military commander is tasked with fulfilling

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Speaker 2: a mission, which means he needs his he or she

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Speaker 2: needs his and her his sailors or her sailors to

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Speaker 2: be fully prepared to complete whatever mission that that the

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Speaker 2: President gives them or their commanders give them. And and

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Speaker 2: that requires people to be ready, requires them be squared away,

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Speaker 2: requires them to have completed everything that they need to

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Speaker 2: complete to be ready, and the trainings and to have

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Speaker 2: their uniform ready and uh and to be to be

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Speaker 2: where they need to be on time. And in that

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Speaker 2: process there are going to be those who who failed

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Speaker 2: in some way, whether whether it's due to their own

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Speaker 2: fault or to some other fault. And so so often

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Speaker 2: what happens is there's attention or a conflict between you know,

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Speaker 2: the needs of the mission in a macro perspective and

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Speaker 2: the rights of a sailor if there is suspicion that

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Speaker 2: they've perhaps broken the law in some way or or

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Speaker 2: failed in some way to contribute as they've been tasked

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Speaker 2: to complete the mission, and in that process there they

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Speaker 2: had I mean, they're a sailor who has raised their hand,

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Speaker 2: they've sworn an oath, They've said, I am going to

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Speaker 2: support and defend the Constitution of the United States. But

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Speaker 2: that same constitution gives them all of the rights that

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Speaker 2: you and I have as well. Now, some of those

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Speaker 2: rights have to be limited in the military capacity due

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Speaker 2: to the exigencies of military service. But Congress and the

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court and the court's tasked with supporting the military,

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Speaker 2: such as the Native Marine Court, Appeals Court, the Court

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Speaker 2: of Appeals for the Armed Forces, they've set the rules.

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Speaker 2: And so just as we asked that sailor or that

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Speaker 2: soldier to follow the rules in completing the mission, we

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Speaker 2: also asked that commander, were those tasked with with administering

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Speaker 2: that mission with following those same rules, including the constitution rules.

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Speaker 2: And so the role of a staff judge advocate is

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Speaker 2: going to be advising the commander and what his legal

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Speaker 2: obligations are in that context. Now that I've described the

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Speaker 2: criminal sense of this, where you have a sailor who's

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Speaker 2: suspected of having violated perhaps a criminal a criminal code,

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Speaker 2: or some sort of regulation. But then there's also there's

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Speaker 2: also ethical requirements, you know, whether or not whether or

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Speaker 2: not they're able to give that speech, or say this

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Speaker 2: or or take that gift, or how they're supposed to

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Speaker 2: interact with a foreign a foreign national. And then there

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Speaker 2: are environmental regulations, laws of rules of engagement, and so

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Speaker 2: the statue of staff judge advocate, which is a capacity

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Speaker 2: I served it for a bit, is advising the commander

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Speaker 2: and all those legal obligations, and generally speaking they want

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Speaker 2: to follow them, but they also understand that there can

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Speaker 2: be a variance in in in how they're going to

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Speaker 2: be scrutinized, and so so sometimes there can be pressure

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Speaker 2: to get to yes, and and sometimes that pressure is

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Speaker 2: responded with with, you know, a firm position from the attorneys,

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Speaker 2: and they're able to to understand, you know, is is

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Speaker 2: this a clear requirement or is this a requirement that

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Speaker 2: requires their own judgment or their own decision on what

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Speaker 2: types of risks they want to take. In the criminal context,

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Speaker 2: that's where you know, potentially the person is is a criminal,

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Speaker 2: and so they need to be dealt with for for

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Speaker 2: criminal activity through you know, the constitutional due process that

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Speaker 2: they're afforded. And so it's the job of either that

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Speaker 2: staff judge up or that defense attorney to to sometimes

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Speaker 2: speak legal truth to the power that is is obviously

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Speaker 2: motivated at least most of the time by by the

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Speaker 2: goodwill of of of completing the mission.

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Speaker 1: You used the phrase legal truth, but you did not

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Speaker 1: stay in that vocation. You found another one in search

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Speaker 1: a different type of truth. And I can genuinely say

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Speaker 1: I'm not often surprised, but I was surprised when you

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Speaker 1: called me. You were about to put on lieutenant commander

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Speaker 1: in the navy. You had a thriving political career, and

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Speaker 1: tell me about the decision you you made next that

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Speaker 1: brings you to Rome and where you wind up in Rome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and just to clarify, I was I was

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Speaker 2: going up for it, so I would have been uh

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Speaker 2: considered for promotion that following year.

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Speaker 1: Uh And and you were like the lieutenant affy of

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Speaker 1: the Pacific Fleet. So exactly you're on the You're on

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Speaker 1: the edge of being promoted to lieutenant commander. Likely and

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Speaker 1: you do what with your life?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know. So to rule back the the

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Speaker 2: clock here a little bit on that story I had.

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Speaker 2: I had been raised as a generic Protestant style Christian

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Speaker 2: growing up. I had been originally baptized a Catholic, but

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Speaker 2: I was raised essentially as a generic Protestant Christian, and

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Speaker 2: that was my general framework. But I went through a

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Speaker 2: conversion process in law school. And so in the middle

350
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Speaker 2: of law school, while I was actually still preparing to

351
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Speaker 2: be a Navy judge advocate, I had discovered Catholicism and

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Speaker 2: Catholic Christianity and basically fell in love with it. So

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Speaker 2: I entered the Catholic Church anew in twenty eleven twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: And so when I entered active duty, I did so

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Speaker 2: as a new Catholic, a practicing Catholic, and someone who

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Speaker 2: was very intentional about living out that faith. And so

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Speaker 2: as I was practicing as attorney in the Navy, I

358
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Speaker 2: still hadn't come to to the conclusion that I would

359
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Speaker 2: I was going to become a priest. In fact, I was.

360
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Speaker 2: I was still seriously dating. I got engaged at one

361
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Speaker 2: point to another Navy jag and and and she and

362
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Speaker 2: I had a lengthy relationship, and then we we realized

363
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Speaker 2: we shouldn't get married, so we we went separate ways.

364
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Speaker 2: But then at some point in this process, I started

365
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Speaker 2: to seriously consider priesthood. And you know, one of the

366
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Speaker 2: factors that went into that I I viewed what I

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Speaker 2: was doing as as a real service. You know, I was,

368
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Speaker 2: I was serving as an attorney, I was serving the military.

369
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Speaker 2: But I felt a sense that I had a call

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Speaker 2: to one of the more underlying truths, so to speak,

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Speaker 2: were or cultural foundations that I was also being called

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Speaker 2: to serve. And so you know, in in Aristotelian or

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Speaker 2: Aristotle's Aristotle's philosophy, he talked about the various various vocations,

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Speaker 2: various professions, and and you know, politics is incredibly important

375
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Speaker 2: to him. He talks at length, Plato talks at length

376
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Speaker 2: about politics. Aris talks at length about politics, and and

377
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Speaker 2: you know, he he describes it as a means to

378
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Speaker 2: an end. You know, if politics becomes our god, it's

379
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Speaker 2: we've we've disordered something. Politics is a means to obtaining

380
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Speaker 2: some sort of other reality. And that's basically a peaceful, ordered,

381
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Speaker 2: just society in which human beings are free to be

382
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Speaker 2: who who they who they really are and to live

383
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Speaker 2: out their identity and their their their pursuit of happiness

384
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Speaker 2: as we'd call it constitutionally in the Declaration of Independence.

385
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Speaker 2: And so in that environment, what I saw was, I

386
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Speaker 2: think God was calling me to contribute something to one

387
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Speaker 2: of the underlying foundations that then contributes positively to all

388
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Speaker 2: of those other paths in life that contribute to the end,

389
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Speaker 2: which is the success and flourishing of the human person.

390
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Speaker 2: And and one of those things which I find and

391
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Speaker 2: continue to find to be foundational is faith. That my

392
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Speaker 2: own faith experience allowed me to contribute in a special way.

393
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Speaker 2: At least, this is what I felt called to at

394
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Speaker 2: the time, and so I considered Catholic priest did and

395
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Speaker 2: as soon as I opened that door, despite all of

396
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Speaker 2: my initial reluctance, you know, I was. I was reluctant because,

397
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Speaker 2: as everyone knows, or Catholic priests or cell of it,

398
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Speaker 2: you know, that wasn't actually something I had planned for

399
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Speaker 2: my life. You know. Another thing is that it's a

400
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: it's a total vocation, it's not a job. So I

401
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: know that a Catholic priest never ceases to be, you know, father.

402
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Speaker 2: So I'm father, Brad and I could take this off

403
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: and put on a pull of shirt go out, But

404
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: I'm still a priest, and so it's a it involves

405
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: a total commitment, and I was unsure of it. But

406
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 2: I as soon as I opened that door, I saw

407
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 2: the ways in which that God was was pointing me

408
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 2: in this direction. I saw the ways in which, you know,

409
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: I had clients who I could help with their legal problems.

410
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: I you know, their rights were violated. I could represent

411
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 2: them in court and we could reach the resolution. But

412
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: I felt a you know, a heart tug to also

413
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: help with, you know, potentially their spiritual problems. You know,

414
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: they didn't end up in a criminal defense setting out

415
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Speaker 2: of nowhere. For the most part, they they had a

416
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Speaker 2: full backstory. They had the day after, you know, the

417
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Speaker 2: day after they're acquitted, or the day after they they

418
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Speaker 2: emerged from from prison. There's the rest of their life.

419
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Speaker 2: And I wanted to contribute in a way that would

420
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Speaker 2: would further those ends or those objectives, and so I

421
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: gave Seminary a chance. In two thousand and seven, I

422
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: left active duty to start Seminary. I began in San

423
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: Diego for one year so that I could complete what

424
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: was a philosopher department. I had to essentially major in

425
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 2: philosophy and take all the credits that were necessary for

426
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 2: philosophy major to go on to my seminary in Rome.

427
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: So I did that in one year, and then I

428
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: moved to Rome. And during that five year period preceding

429
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 2: my ordination to the priesthood, I found that this was

430
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: indeed the vocation to which I felt called by God

431
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Speaker 2: and to which I wanted to say yes. And I

432
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: had to get to a point where my yes wasn't

433
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: just a yes to you in a subservient way follow

434
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 2: God's God's will. I didn't think that's how he wanted

435
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: me to respond. It had to be a yes that

436
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: came from my own desire and free choice to be

437
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,239
Speaker 2: a priest. And I got to that point, and I

438
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 2: was ordained a deacon in twenty twenty one in Saint

439
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: Peter's Basilica, and then I was ordained a Catholic priest

440
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: last June twenty twenty two and in San Diego by

441
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: now Cardinal maclbray.

442
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: I wonder if you might share the story, because I

443
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: think it is a beautiful story on many levels, as

444
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: well as being very sad. But the story of your

445
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: father and you were your first mass. As you were

446
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,199
Speaker 1: becoming a priest, your father had a heart attack.

447
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, about about twelve days before my ordination, he had

448
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: a heart attack, and so I was in I was

449
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: actually still in Rome at the time, getting ready to

450
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: fly back for the ordination, and he was in Ohio,

451
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: and my ordination was gonna be in San Diego. So

452
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: I dropped everything and flew to Ohio where he was hospitalized,

453
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: and he had gone through a surgery and came out

454
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: of the surgery. The doctors were actually very surprised because

455
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: apparently when he had gone through the surgery, they didn't

456
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 2: know if he was going to make it. He ended

457
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: up making it through the surgery, and then his recovery

458
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: was actually proceeding incredibly quickly, and so by the time

459
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 2: I got there, which was, you know, a day and

460
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 2: a half later, because that's about the time it took

461
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: for me to get a flight and fly across the world,

462
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: the doctors were very pleased with how things were going,

463
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: and they were talking about they were talking about discharge dates,

464
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: and he continued to recover and gain strength, and so

465
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: he was fully prepared to watch my ordination on the

466
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: live stream, and I returned to San Diego to be ordained,

467
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: and then I was going to return to him when

468
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: I you know, the day after my first mess and

469
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: returned to him to see him in the hospital or

470
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 2: if he had been discharged at that point, to see

471
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: him in recovery. A few hours before my ordination began,

472
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: I found out he had gone into partiac arrest, which

473
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: had surprised everyone. And then fifteen minutes before the ordination,

474
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: I was told that it basically was not he was

475
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: not going to come through that they they basically wanted

476
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 2: to know should they keep trying to resuscitate, and so

477
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: they did keep trying to resuscitate. And but I proceeded

478
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: into my ordination knowing my father was dying, and so

479
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: I was ordained a priest in the midst of my

480
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: father's my father's death, and it is something that is

481
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: seared into my memory. You know, a lot of people

482
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: talk about their ordinations as going very quickly. They don't

483
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: really remember much of it because so much is going on.

484
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: There are, you know, thousands of people, there, a lot

485
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: of activity. I remember every detail of my ordination and

486
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: I remember very very vividly experiencing my father's my father's

487
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: dying it. And you know what's what is very I

488
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: guess spiritually very central to this experience for me is

489
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: this idea that he was my natural father. He brought

490
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: me into the world as my father, and I was

491
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: in the process of becoming a spiritual father to a community,

492
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: and it was as if he had he had just

493
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 2: made it to pass the baton to me that, you know,

494
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: though I was becoming a celibate priest who wouldn't be

495
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: a natural father to anyone, he made it across the

496
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: finish line to the beginning of my life as a

497
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: spiritual father. And so that that experience, I think fundamentally

498
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 2: fortified the way I view the way I view my priesthood.

499
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: That I am carrying on a fatherhood in a very

500
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: special way, and it's a fatherhood that I can I

501
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: can experience and offer in a sense that I also

502
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: received from my own father. You know, my own father

503
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: was my biggest cheerleader. You know, he was such a

504
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: supportive man. I mean, he was probably the most excited

505
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 2: person on planet Earth for my ordination as a priest,

506
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: probably more excited than me, and yet he was barely

507
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: able to get there in a living sense, and he

508
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: was not he wasn't conscious. They played the ordination to

509
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: him in his hospital room while he was unconscious, and

510
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: so who knows what he heard, but he lasted a

511
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: few hours later. And so I received the news at

512
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: four thirty am Pacific coast time. And then my first

513
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: mass began at I think it was nine or nine thirty.

514
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: But I told my family who had arrived for my

515
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: first Mass, that he had passed away. They then went

516
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: in to be seated, and then I proceeded in as

517
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 2: father Brad did your first Mass, and did my first Mass,

518
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: and preached and preached the homily, the sermon.

519
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: And you will now be leaving Rome after five years.

520
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: You speak Italian fluently, returning to San Diego. Well, you

521
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: will be a parish priest for a period of time,

522
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: and then the plan is that you will return to

523
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: active military service as a chaplain in the United States Navy.

524
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: And when last week talked, your ambition was to deploy

525
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: with Marines.

526
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: That's right, So I will be I will be in

527
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: San Diego for three years as a parish priest, and

528
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: I received that assignment from the Cardinals. So I'll be

529
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 2: in North County, San Diego be a parish priest there

530
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: for three years. It's a big, lively parish with thousands

531
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: of families. And then I will at the end of

532
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: that three year period, I will be loaned by the

533
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 2: Diocese of San Diego to the Archdiocese for the Military Services,

534
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 2: who will send me to the military as a Catholic

535
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 2: priest and Navy chaplain in the Naval Service. So that

536
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: will make me again an officer. A chaplain in the

537
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 2: Navy Commission swears an oath for the Constitution and then

538
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: puts on the uniform and serves as a naval officer.

539
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: And given the lack of supply of priests, so there

540
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 2: are hundreds and hundreds of chaplains in the US Navy,

541
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: there are about forty seven or forty eight Catholic priests

542
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: among those chaplains, and so we're a little underrepresented, and

543
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: we have something like twenty five percent to a third

544
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 2: of the Navy population, depending on where we are and

545
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: which part of the and and so because of that shortage,

546
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: I will primarily be serving overseas at d and with

547
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: the Marines for my entire Navy career. That at least

548
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 2: that's my expectation. I mean, there could be some service

549
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: you know, through through Washington, d C. But for the

550
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 2: most part, I'll be serving in a deployed status. And

551
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: and my ambition is is to do that. I want

552
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 2: to be with the fleet, and I want to be

553
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: with the Marines, who are you know, in the most

554
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: need because the deployed fleet, the US Marine Corps are

555
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 2: out in a setting where they they can't go home.

556
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: They they have they go to a military base or

557
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: to a bunk or we call it a rack in

558
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 2: a metal vessel. And and so they they obviously have

559
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: recourse and it's a it's a very good service to

560
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 2: have recourse to chaplaincy, to have recourse to a member

561
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: of religious faith. And so the chaplaincy includes rabbis, ministers, priests,

562
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:09,359
Speaker 2: it includes uh, you know, women ministers, uh, male ministers uh.

563
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: And and so as a Catholic priest, I'll be able

564
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: to provide Catholic services. And you know, one of the

565
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: things that people don't understand when a military member joins,

566
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: when he swears the oath, when he commissions or unless

567
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,280
Speaker 2: or she when when he or she joins, their spouse

568
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: their kids come with them. And so uh that sailor

569
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 2: overseas in Japan, for instance, has brought their family with

570
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: them and and they together are in service to the country. Uh,

571
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: they are go the kids are going often to a

572
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: defense department school, they go to. Their dog goes to

573
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:02,760
Speaker 2: the veterinarian on the military base. And Uh the Japanese

574
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 2: priest down the spree down the street, if he exists,

575
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: doesn't speak English. The minister he or she down the

576
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: street does not speak English. And so the chaplaincy allows

577
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 2: a service member to exercise their their right to religious liberty,

578
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,800
Speaker 2: their right to free exercise of religion in the military service.

579
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: They don't have to hang that up or put that

580
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: on the shelf for the duration of their military service.

581
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: They have access to a chaplain either of their own

582
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 2: religious affiliation or of of someone who can still support

583
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: them in a spiritual and counseling sense while they're overseas.

584
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: And so I will be providing Catholic support to Catholics.

585
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 2: So the Catholic religious services to Catholics and their families,

586
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,560
Speaker 2: and then general counseling services and chaplaincy serve is to

587
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: every member of every faith group.

588
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: We've spent a long time talking about your incredibly fascinating

589
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: career path, your your service, your vocation as a priest.

590
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: But I want to ask you Uh, as an American

591
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: who's lived abroad for five years, how do you see

592
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: the country from abroad? What does it what does it

593
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: look like to you? I was struck recently. Senator from Connecticut,

594
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: Christopher Murphy UH was co author of a piece and

595
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to have his his his his writing partner

596
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: on the on the podcast, but really talked about that

597
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: there's a spiritual crisis in the country. And he specifically

598
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: framed it that there's a spiritual crisis on the on

599
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: the left, and that from that position, we need to rehabilitate, reinvigorate,

600
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: from a values perspective, all manner of different notions about

601
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,839
Speaker 1: how the society, about how the society functions. But when

602
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 1: you look at the country from abroad, when you look

603
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: at its politics, do you sense a spiritual crisis in America?

604
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: How do you contextualize the reality of American life through

605
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 1: the prism of what is that that at any moment,

606
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 1: uniquely here, someone somewhere can jump out of a bush

607
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,959
Speaker 1: with an automatic weapon and mow down sixty people at

608
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: a school, at a movie theater, at a country music concert.

609
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: There's certainly been a collapse of faith and American democracy

610
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 1: by the political party that we were both affiliated with,

611
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: almost Lockstock and Barrel, And so I wonder how you

612
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: think about the collapse of faith at a level in

613
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: our institutions, in our systems, and what the remedy for

614
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: it is.

615
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And you bring up a lot of good.

616
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 2: There are a lot of questions embedded in that question,

617
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: and if there were an easy answer, I think we'd

618
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: have a quick resolution one thing. And I, you know,

619
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: I what really liberates me to speak from the macro

620
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 2: perspective on this, I think is, you know, you and

621
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 2: I were once affiliate with the Republican Party. As a priest,

622
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: I'm not really affiliated, uh with with any partisan grouping.

623
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 2: So I'm able to take a step back and sort

624
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: of look at the global the global picture here. And

625
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 2: I have been overseas for eight of the last nine

626
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 2: years between the military service and then my my seminary

627
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: and priesthood in Rome, and so when I go back,

628
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: I see the ways in which things are the same

629
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 2: and the ways in which things have changed. And so

630
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 2: I experienced, you know, the last few presidential elections overseas

631
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: and have seen how things have shifted. You know. One

632
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: of the things that I would say across the boards

633
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: to the gun issue. I've lived in Japan, I've lived

634
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: in Italy, I've traveled. I was just in Austria last week.

635
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:29,919
Speaker 2: I've traveled all over Europe and other parts of the world.

636
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:36,919
Speaker 2: I am never concerned about my physical safety when I'm

637
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 2: walking the streets of Rome, even at one in the morning.

638
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: I was never concerned about my physical safety when I

639
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: was walking walking the streets of Tokyo. And that's not

640
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 2: to say that crime doesn't exist or there is no

641
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: incidence of it, but there is much, much less violent

642
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: crime in the rest of the world, at least the

643
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: rest of the developed world. And and that is striking,

644
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: especially when I return home and I'm getting the local

645
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: news again. You know, I can keep I can keep

646
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,359
Speaker 2: up pretty easily with the national news, but I get

647
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 2: to get the local news when I get back and

648
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: and I see what's going on. And what I have

649
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 2: found is we have we've had an increase in dramatic violence,

650
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: uh and an increase of an inability to have a

651
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: conversation about it. So we when I speak to my friends,

652
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:42,839
Speaker 2: my family members, my neighbors about what's going on. I

653
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,919
Speaker 2: find that people are much more invested in a perspective,

654
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 2: and that investment has made the conversation more heated and

655
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 2: much more difficult. And so you know, I've I've had

656
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: a lot of time to reflect on, you know, what

657
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: might be the cause of of these conflicts. And I

658
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: think if you if you look at the development of

659
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 2: the country over time, you know, we we as Americans,

660
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: have had very high ideals and have really failed at

661
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 2: various times to actually live them out. And you know,

662
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 2: you look back in the history of the United States,

663
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: uh and and we describe people every man as inherently equal.

664
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: And then we also had slavery, which was, you know,

665
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: catastrophically in contradiction with our ideals. So but we the

666
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: point I'm making on that is there were times when

667
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 2: we had a general consensus about what is good, what

668
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 2: are our values, and then from that consensus we were

669
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 2: able to have arguments and debates. And when we realized

670
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 2: that we could no longer have a discussion, and there

671
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: was a civil war, and an approach emerged out of

672
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 2: that civil war that got us to where we are

673
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: today that fully recognizes at least in law, and it's

674
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 2: still waiting to be implemented, but the fully recognizes, at

675
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 2: least in the principled sense, the inherent equal dignity of

676
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: every human being. And where we are today, I think,

677
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: is that we have a fundamental disagreement not over not

678
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 2: only over what our values are, but whether or not

679
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: we can have values or you know, what is the

680
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: approach of how we're going to even address these issues.

681
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: One of the things that was striking several years ago,

682
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: early on in his papacy, Hope Francis came to the

683
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: United States. This was back when John Bayner was Speaker

684
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: and he was invited to the Congress to address the

685
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 2: US Congress and Francis gave a speech that was that

686
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: was well received, but he mentioned, I just I recently

687
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: reviewed that speech. He mentioned six times the common good

688
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 2: as the end of politics. That if you, if you

689
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: are really doing politics right, what you're doing is you're

690
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 2: seeking the common good. And I don't think we use

691
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 2: that terminology in our political discourse anymore. And the reasons

692
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: for that is, you know, I think when some people

693
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 2: hear the common good, they think immediately of Marxist socialism,

694
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,919
Speaker 2: which it's not. And When others hear the common good,

695
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: they think immediately of a of the imposition perhaps of

696
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: another person's moral viewpoints or values on on someone else. Really,

697
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: the common good is the recognition of a shared benefit

698
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 2: and and communion of people that we all benefit from

699
00:45:55,920 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 2: and therefore we contribute to. So, for instance, the education

700
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: of the population is in service of the common good.

701
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: Not only am I benefited from the fact that I'm educated,

702
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 2: but the society has benefited from the fact that I'm

703
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 2: educated and others are educated, because we all can make

704
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 2: better contributing members of society when we are educated. And

705
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 2: so we recognize that we should make sacrifices, you know,

706
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: in the sense that we're taxed for it. We contribute

707
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: to it so that we can ensure all Americans have

708
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 2: at least a baseline education. Well, if that shared value

709
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: is the baseline from which and the foundation from which,

710
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 2: then we have the freedom to make choices in I

711
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 2: can have the freedom to choose where I go to school,

712
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 2: or my parents can have the freedom to choose where

713
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: they send me to school. But what my parents really

714
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 2: can't do is choose to keep me an illiterate, uneducated

715
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 2: person who can't even do basic arithmetic for the rest

716
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: of my life. We have decided as a society that

717
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: that's basically not acceptable. Well, that limits freedom in some ways.

718
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 2: So there is an absolute freedom, so to speak, a

719
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 2: fundamental right of a parent to educate, or a fundamental

720
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 2: right of a parent to raise their child, but not

721
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: to so harm their child that they leave them entirely

722
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: uneducated for the rest of their life. At least, that's

723
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 2: the value system that we all share. And so that's

724
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 2: something that at least most Americans, I think, would say, Hey,

725
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 2: we all can agree on that that that is a

726
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 2: good and that we should all make sacrifices and contribute

727
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: to that good. But that breaks down now, I think

728
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,920
Speaker 2: across the board. I think that when you're talking about

729
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 2: gun rights, we are having an argument in which we

730
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: don't have those shared values. You have, on the one hand,

731
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 2: some who would view that gun rights are absolute and

732
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 2: only from the individual perspective that I, as an individual

733
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 2: have a right to bear arms, and then others who

734
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 2: might be very much opposed to the ownership guns, and

735
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 2: there are certainly people in between. But when you're not

736
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: coming to it from the perspective of what is contributing

737
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 2: best to the benefit of society. In what ways does

738
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 2: gun ownership contribute or harm that good of society, the

739
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: piece of society, the justice in society, et cetera. And

740
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: from that baseline, from that shared value, how are we

741
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: going to assess the freedom from which you can make

742
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: choices in that shared value? Because we don't approach it

743
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: from the perspective of the common good, we can no

744
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 2: longer have a real dialogue. And so it is a

745
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: zero sum gain of whether or not a state is

746
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: going to be regulating or not regulating guns because because

747
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: of what I would call out a kind of encampment

748
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: or a tribalism on the issue. And and so certainly,

749
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: as a priest, I have I have a duty to

750
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:18,839
Speaker 2: assist people to use their their their value system, use

751
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,080
Speaker 2: the way in which the faith contributes and informs that

752
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 2: value system, uh to to then help shape an approach

753
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: to the common good that doesn't view freedom solely through

754
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 2: the lens of individualism, you know, where where whereas I

755
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,439
Speaker 2: would agree with the individual rights and the civil rights,

756
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 2: but views the exercise of those individual rights and those

757
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 2: civil rights within this broader communitarian perspective in which I'm

758
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 2: also assessing, how is this, how is this good for society?

759
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 2: In what way is this contributing to the community? And

760
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 2: from that shared agreement, we then can appropriate appropriate rights

761
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: which are inherent to the human person, but cannot be

762
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: absolute if we're going to have a peaceful, just place

763
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 2: to live.

764
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 1: What's the way to think about this issue. We really

765
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:25,839
Speaker 1: have a immigration crisis. I think that everyone who looks

766
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: at the issue fairly and honestly would agree on that

767
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:37,319
Speaker 1: we have a mass of human misery fleeing for their

768
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: lives from despotic regimes south of the border, from unbelievable

769
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 1: levels of violence, and they are trying to make it

770
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: in safety to the United States. Not everybody will be

771
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: let in. People that are trying to get in do

772
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 1: get across. George W. Bush, who we worked for once,

773
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: tried to conceptualize and contextualize this as yes, it is

774
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: a breaking of a law, but for the father or

775
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: the mother who walks across a desert to provide a

776
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,440
Speaker 1: better life for their children, it's also an act of

777
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: love doing everything they can to keep those to keep

778
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: those children, those children safe. When you look at what's happening,

779
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: whether it's Governor Abbott dropping people off on Christmas Eve

780
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: in front of the Vice President's residence, off of a bus,

781
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: disoriented and cold and alone. Whether it's Ron DeSantis in

782
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: the state of Florida flying bewildered people into the state

783
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: of California and dropping them off. And Gavin Newsom, the

784
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: governor of California, has as an sinuated and I think

785
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: he may be correct that this meets the statutory definition

786
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: of kidnapping, which raises a legal question, Right, what happens

787
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: if one state issues a warrant for the arrest of

788
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 1: another state's governor? Right, so the spirals to a dark

789
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: place very very quickly. But you know, won't preamble, But

790
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 1: there's a politics of unmistakable cruelty that is most vividly

791
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: demonstrably supported by people who call themselves evangelical Christians. Any

792
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: basic conception of the meaning of Christianity, who Christ was

793
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: is obviously antithetical to this. How do you explain that?

794
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: Two?

795
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: How does that make your job as a spiritual father

796
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: more difficult? Because it certainly triggers my cynical gene on

797
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: on on religion in polls like a tractor being away

798
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: from some of those those those broader truths. I just

799
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 1: I have a and I know I'm not alone in

800
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: in that, in that reaction, which which and I don't

801
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: know why, right, you turn away from God? You turn

802
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:40,359
Speaker 1: away because of man's frailties and fallibility. But but how

803
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:44,120
Speaker 1: do you think about that? People who take away from

804
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 1: this moment of time, Well, the religious people are with

805
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: this guy, and what they're supporting is this cruelty and

806
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:57,760
Speaker 1: and therefore now I'm against religion and it colors their faith.

807
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:04,640
Speaker 2: Okay, So what I would what I would begin with

808
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 2: here is the story of the Good Samaritan. So the guy.

809
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 2: There's a guy who is beaten up and left for

810
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 2: dead on the side of the road in the desert

811
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:20,480
Speaker 2: as he's transitting from one town to another. And I

812
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 2: believe it's a levitical priest. So a priest of the

813
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 2: temple in ancient Jerusalem walks by, looks at him, and passes.

814
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 2: Another another religious person walks by and passes. And so

815
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 2: this is Jesus's critique of hypocritical religious leadership. So you know,

816
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: Jesus is a Jew himself, he's a rabbi himself, and

817
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 2: he's criticizing the tendency often of religious leadership to become

818
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 2: cynical or hypocritical, and then a samaritan comes by, and

819
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: the samaritan is the one who cleans the wounds and

820
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 2: takes the guy to a place where he can stay

821
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 2: and recover and pay sportal. Well, it just so happens

822
00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: to be that a samaritan's a foreigner, and the foreigner

823
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 2: someone that this man who was left for dead on

824
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 2: the side of the road would have not had normal

825
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 2: interactions with, He would have not been engaged in any

826
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: type of commerce or interaction with the samaritan, and it's

827
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: the samaritan who ends up ends up helping the man recover. Well.

828
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: The point of that story is to reorient the perspective

829
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 2: of the listener towards the other, the foreigner, and to

830
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 2: show the fundamental equality and dignity between each human being,

831
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 2: and to take us out of our comfort zones, our

832
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 2: own walls of protection by which we have come up

833
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:52,520
Speaker 2: with their other and so I am not concerned for them,

834
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: and so it is to get us out of that

835
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 2: comfort and recognize the fundamental shared dignity between each person

836
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 2: and the shared responsibility that we have towards our neighbor,

837
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 2: even if they're a even if they're a foreigner, a stranger,

838
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: or someone who we wouldn't regard highly in our social context.

839
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 2: And immigration today is probably, on a macro perspective, a

840
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: broader experience of that story. And so it is I

841
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,840
Speaker 2: would agree with you, and Pope Francis would agree with you.

842
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: It is impossible to be a Christian and not care

843
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 2: about the plight of those who are escaping very dangerous,

844
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:39,720
Speaker 2: very violent situations and requesting asylum or immigrating this country

845
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 2: for various reasons, even if the reason is just to

846
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:48,879
Speaker 2: find a better opportunity for their family. And so in

847
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 2: that context, multiple things can be true. At the same time,

848
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 2: we should have as a country a system by which

849
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,560
Speaker 2: we know who enters the country and a system by

850
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 2: which we can we can secure the country. And at

851
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 2: that same time, what can also be true is that

852
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 2: we have a duty, as the wealthiest nation in the

853
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:14,480
Speaker 2: world and as a society, to look towards that immigration

854
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: demand with an eye towards not simply the number or

855
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: the fact that they are outsiders, but looks at them

856
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: with a perspective of the human dignity which they have

857
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: as human beings. And so the kid who is being

858
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 2: separated from a family member. Well, you know, if you

859
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: think through it with human eyes, that is, I mean,

860
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: that's heinous to separate children from family members solely for

861
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 2: punitive reasons or to discourage, to discourage migration, because that

862
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: child is a human being. That child is going to

863
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 2: be traumatized for the rest of his life or her life.

864
00:57:56,120 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: And so in approaching this issue, particularly from a spiritual perspective,

865
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 2: particularly from a Catholic perspective, of which you know so strongly,

866
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 2: does does Jesus actually demand approaching the foreigner through the

867
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:19,760
Speaker 2: lens of viewing the foreigner with with eyes towards their humanity,

868
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 2: Because because everyone in our system has been created in

869
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 2: the image of God, or or even the Book of Amos,

870
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 2: you know, it's you know, to use a Jewish example

871
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: or a book from the Hebrew Bible, which constantly reminds

872
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 2: those who have means that they have a shared responsibility

873
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 2: of caring for those who are impoverished or destitute, et cetera.

874
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: And and people will be judge in the in the

875
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 2: grand scheme of things, according to the Book of Amos,

876
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,120
Speaker 2: according to Jesus, by how they approached those who were

877
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 2: most in need. And that approach does not only involve

878
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: private charity. You know, it includes private charity, and Americans

879
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 2: actually are some of the most generous people in the

880
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: world when it comes to private charity. But it also

881
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 2: involves the ordering of society. And and so because we

882
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 2: are capable of reviewing asylum cases, and because we are

883
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: capable of absorbing immigration in a time when there is

884
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 2: significant disparity between living conditions in the world, we have

885
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 2: a duty if we if we're a society based on values,

886
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: a society based on the Christian perspective of how the

887
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 2: world is ordered, we have we have not just the opportunity,

888
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: but a duty to approach this issue through the lens

889
00:59:46,200 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 2: of looking through, looking past the differences, and looking towards

890
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 2: people as people. And and that's going to require us,

891
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, some cost, but it ultimately tributes to the

892
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 2: community because you know, at the end of the day,

893
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 2: for the most part, with the exception of the Native Americans,

894
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: everyone else was an immigrant at some point and benefited

895
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: from from a community that welcomed them and and and

896
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 2: allowed them to become to become Americans in the full sense.

897
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 2: And and that wasn't done perfectly. And we have had

898
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 2: a history of of you know, issues especially where there

899
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 2: was a lot of immigration, where the society took a

900
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:38,960
Speaker 2: while to accept or to tolerate differences. And you know,

901
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: a great example of that is discrimination against against Catholics

902
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: in parts of the country in the nineteenth century and

903
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: at the beginning of the twentieth century against Jews in

904
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 2: other and other contexts in the country. And so we've

905
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,400
Speaker 2: gotten through those pains. But now we have found another

906
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: way in which I think we have failed to recognize

907
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: a shared value U system by which we can approach

908
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: this issue. And and therefore and have these conversations. And

909
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 2: you know, as a Catholic priest is someone who has

910
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 2: studied the political philosophies of Augustine of Thomas, Aquinas of Mimonodes,

911
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 2: who was a Jewish political philosopher, and who contributed to

912
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 2: this conversation. We've come we've we've been actually better at

913
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: approaching these issues before. Uh. And so part of what

914
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,320
Speaker 2: we'll need, I think, and this is this is something

915
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 2: that's necessary in order to emerge from this. We are

916
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 2: going to have to UH, resource and look at where

917
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: have we been, what is our history? What were those

918
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 2: shared values? What were the principles that we can we

919
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: can say, actually, society had and should have again because

920
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 2: we have accepted immigrants in much more welcoming ways and

921
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 2: we had shared values that was much more you know,

922
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 2: that involved a much greater openness. And it doesn't mean

923
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 2: we should have you know, quote unquote open borders or

924
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 2: just let everybody in without any type of discernment or consideration,

925
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:10,880
Speaker 2: or that we should allow criminals to enter the country.

926
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:14,200
Speaker 2: Of course not. And but to come up with a

927
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 2: system that's going to work and be much more humane,

928
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:20,520
Speaker 2: we are going to actually have to come up. We

929
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: are going to have to go down deeper than just

930
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:27,120
Speaker 2: winning the next election or getting a party to to

931
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 2: vanquish an issue. And because that's not going to ultimately

932
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: resolve the problem, We're going to have to fundamentally return

933
01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,640
Speaker 2: to our most basic principles and decide that we agree

934
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: that this person, this family, these people are fundamentally human,

935
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 2: that they share the same aspirations that we do, that

936
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,480
Speaker 2: they are deserving of the same fundamental rights that we have,

937
01:02:54,000 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: and because of that, I owe something. Because I have

938
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:05,160
Speaker 2: everything in as American, I have all of the opportunities

939
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,440
Speaker 2: that they might be seeking, and that with a shared cost,

940
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: that everyone can perhaps contribute to the common good benefits

941
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 2: because now I have additional contributors. I have people who've

942
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: come here to also become a part of the society,

943
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 2: and that diversity, when it's done correctly, that diversity can

944
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:29,480
Speaker 2: only benefit us.

945
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 1: I've been a long time believer that really the fundamental

946
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: issue of our era is the collapse of trust between

947
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 1: Americans and institutions. The military is important to understand as

948
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:54,240
Speaker 1: an institution because it is the rarest example of an

949
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: institution that loss trust during the Vietnam War and then

950
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 1: recover trust. It became one of the most trusted institutions

951
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 1: in the in the country. The Catholic Church as an

952
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:15,880
Speaker 1: institution has lost trust and broken faith with millions of Catholics,

953
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 1: including the one who left the church. That you're that

954
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,480
Speaker 1: you're that you're talking to how do you think about

955
01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 1: that from the perspective of wearing the collar now the

956
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:36,160
Speaker 1: impression that many have of a Catholic priest as being

957
01:04:36,200 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: a threat potentially to their children. What do you say

958
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: to to those people who have alternately feel betrayed by

959
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: the church, broken hearted by the church, that their bonds

960
01:04:55,720 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 1: of trust with the church were broken. As somebody who

961
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 1: I genuinely know to be one of the most honorable

962
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 1: people I've ever I've ever met who will be a

963
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: wonderful priest. What what do you say to them? At

964
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 1: an individual level? But before I tee up Pope Francis's

965
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: legacy for you, Yeah.

966
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I'd say is, I'm in one sense,

967
01:05:25,880 --> 01:05:31,840
Speaker 2: I'm with you. I am someone who has, at various times,

968
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: as as these events have confronted me, been disheartened and

969
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 2: and and felt betrayed by the institutional failures of the church.

970
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 2: You know, I went to Boston College and I started

971
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,800
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three in Boston College. So that

972
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:56,640
Speaker 2: was right after the peak of the sexiguest crisis in Boston.

973
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: And as I stated at the at the beginning of this,

974
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: I was not a I was not a Catholic. I

975
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,880
Speaker 2: was not a practicing Catholic in in a in the

976
01:06:04,920 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 2: sense of of someone who has considered myself a Catholic.

977
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 2: I didn't identify as a Catholic. Uh. And I was

978
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 2: at Boston College, was a Catholic university and a Genese university.

979
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 2: And and I'm there in the wake of the sex

980
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 2: abuse crisis. You know, while it's still hot well, Cardinal Law,

981
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 2: who you know was was uh you know, essentially had

982
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: to resign from the office of of Archbishop of Boston

983
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 2: because of of his institutional failures. And I found that

984
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 2: the crisis was enough at that time for me not

985
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 2: even to consider becoming Catholic. So I was at Boston College.

986
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 2: It was an incredibly you know, incredibly intellectual environment, in

987
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 2: part because of the contributions of Jesuit priests, uh and

988
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 2: and and and and certainly the contributions of many Catholics

989
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: who who contribute to that that university. But I didn't

990
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 2: even can consider becoming a Catholic while I was there.

991
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 2: And it was because of the sex abuse crisis. And

992
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 2: you know, I thought through it, I thought, this is

993
01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:10,040
Speaker 2: so discrediting, I don't have to consider it. What I

994
01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:14,439
Speaker 2: think I discussed, you know, so over time is that

995
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 2: as that developed in my in my own life, first

996
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 2: of all, I was I was able to contextualize it. Okay.

997
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:29,439
Speaker 2: So it is a spectacular institutional failure the Catholic Church

998
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 2: for this to have happened, because what it did was

999
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 2: it it was another example of what tends to be

1000
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 2: the institutional impulse. Whether you're a usc Penn state, the

1001
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 2: boy scouts, the Catholic Church, some public schools, a scandal

1002
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 2: or a sex abuse crisis comes along, and the institutional

1003
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: impulse immediately is to cover it up. Well, the problem,

1004
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 2: and that's criminal, and that's criminal, and it's it's criminal

1005
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 2: all these cases. But the problem with that is in

1006
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 2: the Catholics setting, the Catholic Church is claiming a type

1007
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:15,680
Speaker 2: of moral and spiritual authority. And so what makes it additionally,

1008
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:21,320
Speaker 2: you know, heines is is that people in a position

1009
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 2: of spiritual authority were letting us down. You and me

1010
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,600
Speaker 2: both as Catholics at the time. Were you as a

1011
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 2: Catholic and then me as a Catholic leader, we're letting

1012
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 2: us down. And so ultimately, when I came, when I

1013
01:08:36,760 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 2: felt called to the Catholic faith, and when I felt

1014
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 2: called to be become a priest, what was fundamentally calling

1015
01:08:42,439 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 2: me was the faith. So so Jesus, who who is

1016
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,120
Speaker 2: both the organ and the leader of the of the faith,

1017
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 2: who was raised from the dead in the Catholic sense

1018
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 2: of things, and so in my belief that he's raised

1019
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 2: from the dead and that he is is ultimately in

1020
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 2: charge of the Catholic faith and of my own Christian spirituality.

1021
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 2: I found him to be true. I found the beatitudes

1022
01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 2: to be true. You know, Blessed are the poor in spirit,

1023
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 2: Blessed are the meat, Blessed are the humble. I found

1024
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 2: his teaching to be true. And I found the saints,

1025
01:09:18,280 --> 01:09:22,799
Speaker 2: such as Mother Teresa, for instance, to be truly living

1026
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 2: out the Catholic faith. And and and then I found

1027
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:31,280
Speaker 2: that there are institutional actors who have let us down,

1028
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 2: either from a from a moral failure or from a

1029
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:40,920
Speaker 2: general in confidence. And my call to the priesthood is

1030
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 2: fully acknowledges that fully acknowledges that it is going to

1031
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 2: be at my own in some in some settings, at

1032
01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 2: my own personal cost, that someone's going to see the

1033
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 2: caller and and they're going to think about what they

1034
01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 2: saw on the news several years ago or decades ago,

1035
01:09:58,680 --> 01:10:02,519
Speaker 2: and and that I am being asked to be a

1036
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:06,759
Speaker 2: priest in that setting with that sacrifice. And that's okay

1037
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:11,520
Speaker 2: for me, because I have come to know the fundamental

1038
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: faith in my own life as being something living and true.

1039
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 2: And so my own contribution is to participate in the

1040
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 2: truth of the faith and in the broader sense, to

1041
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:30,040
Speaker 2: join with others who are engaged in the effort to

1042
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:34,639
Speaker 2: reform that which needs to be reformed. You know, when

1043
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:38,400
Speaker 2: I first got to Rome, as I had transitioned in

1044
01:10:38,439 --> 01:10:41,680
Speaker 2: seminary from San Diego to Rome, I went to a

1045
01:10:41,760 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 2: CC to learn Italian, and I was in a Italian

1046
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 2: program in a CC, Italy where Francis of a Cci

1047
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,120
Speaker 2: was born in the twelfth century. And at the end

1048
01:10:53,160 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 2: of the twelfth beginning of the thirteenth century, Francis of

1049
01:10:55,479 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 2: a CC is sitting beneath the San Domiano Cras and

1050
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:04,400
Speaker 2: that cross, according to the story, speaks to him, and

1051
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 2: it's it's Christ speaking to him, saying, Francis, rebuild my church.

1052
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,839
Speaker 2: And so Francis here's that, and thinks, rebuild the church building.

1053
01:11:13,880 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 2: And so he you can still actually visit this, this

1054
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:21,800
Speaker 2: stone chapel that he by hand erected and fixed. And

1055
01:11:21,880 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 2: so now he's got this nice chapel built. And he

1056
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,120
Speaker 2: goes back to the cross, and the Cross again says

1057
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 2: to him, rebuild my church. And what Francis realizes in

1058
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 2: that is that he's being asked to rebuild the spiritual church,

1059
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:39,960
Speaker 2: not the physical church building, but the spiritual church that

1060
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,880
Speaker 2: constitutes all of the members of the church in the world.

1061
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:47,640
Speaker 2: At that time, and so he becomes a type of

1062
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 2: radical you know, spiritual figure, someone you know we would

1063
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,000
Speaker 2: experience as kind of crazy, kind of out there. He

1064
01:11:57,600 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 2: gives up all of his belongings and takes his clothes

1065
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 2: off to make the point, and he stands naked before

1066
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:07,640
Speaker 2: the bishop talking about his spiritual calling, and ultimately he

1067
01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:13,400
Speaker 2: wears this brown potato sack, which becomes the the so

1068
01:12:13,720 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 2: you know, the habit or the uniform of what is

1069
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 2: the Franciscan order today. That that stems from his that

1070
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 2: stems from his religious grouping. But he in a radical

1071
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 2: way represented the poverty of christ and the poverty of

1072
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 2: Christianity in order to correct and reform the corruption in

1073
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: the church at that time, and that you know, at

1074
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,280
Speaker 2: the turn of the thirteenth century, and that probably had

1075
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 2: the effect of reforming and saving the church and making

1076
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 2: the church a renewed you know, witness to what was

1077
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,880
Speaker 2: most fundamental and and not whatever it was doing at

1078
01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 2: the time, you know, which related to serious levels of

1079
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 2: corruption then. And so institutionally, in a worldly sense, there

1080
01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 2: are going to be worldly actors. We have human beings

1081
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 2: who are sinful, who behave badly, and who are going

1082
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:18,520
Speaker 2: to occupy the institution. And then there is the fundamental

1083
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:23,400
Speaker 2: faith that is going to be constantly calling people to reform,

1084
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:28,639
Speaker 2: to rebuild the church. And in many senses, the saints

1085
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:32,520
Speaker 2: such as Saint Francis of a Cecis and Mother Theresa

1086
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 2: are in a particularly radical way witnessing to what is

1087
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 2: most fundamental to the faith, so that that reform process

1088
01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,719
Speaker 2: can always be carried out and affected in the life

1089
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,320
Speaker 2: of the church. And that's always going to be a struggle.

1090
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 2: I was sitting beneath that Di San Domiano crucifix thinking

1091
01:13:55,640 --> 01:14:00,120
Speaker 2: about that message while the mecheric stories were breaking in

1092
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 2: the news in the summer of twenty eighteen, and so

1093
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,639
Speaker 2: I had on the outside of that church the McCarrick

1094
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 2: news in which we found out that Cardinal mcerrick had

1095
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:15,479
Speaker 2: been an abuser himself and had and had done so

1096
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 2: while he was also overseeing a process by which the

1097
01:14:19,800 --> 01:14:22,320
Speaker 2: church had been responding to the abuse crisis, and the

1098
01:14:22,400 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 2: church had come up with a charter called the Dallas

1099
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:29,120
Speaker 2: Charter on you know, dealing with how to deal with

1100
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 2: all of these these cases and to make sure it

1101
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 2: never happens again. And then it was found out that

1102
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 2: someone you know, in a very integral way was involved

1103
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:40,479
Speaker 2: in the process, and he himself had been an abuser,

1104
01:14:40,520 --> 01:14:44,280
Speaker 2: and that was incredibly scandalous, and so beneath that crucifix,

1105
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,519
Speaker 2: you know, I prayed that I would be given the

1106
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 2: help to contribute, you know, not that I'm going to

1107
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 2: be a Saint Francis of a CC, but that I

1108
01:14:53,600 --> 01:14:55,800
Speaker 2: will contribute in the way that I can, in the

1109
01:14:55,800 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 2: way that I've been called to again participate in the

1110
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:04,320
Speaker 2: rebuilding and the reform of the church, so that the

1111
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 2: most effective witness of what God is trying to do

1112
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 2: in the church and what I experience as a living

1113
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:16,120
Speaker 2: spiritual dimension to the church can be effective in the

1114
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:21,360
Speaker 2: world and not and not covered by you know, the

1115
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 2: the institutional problems that have this this persistence, and so

1116
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 2: there is always going to be that reality. And and

1117
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:36,040
Speaker 2: then I am hopefully and I will be I ask

1118
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:39,160
Speaker 2: for people's purse that I'm always someone who is contributing

1119
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:43,519
Speaker 2: to the betterment and the reform of the witness of

1120
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:47,120
Speaker 2: the church and and the reform of the institution for

1121
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:47,759
Speaker 2: that purpose.

1122
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:52,320
Speaker 1: Last thing I wanted to ask you about is Pope

1123
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:58,720
Speaker 1: Francis's legacy. He has been Pope long enough for it

1124
01:15:58,760 --> 01:16:01,400
Speaker 1: to be firmly at alis. What what is it?

1125
01:16:02,240 --> 01:16:04,439
Speaker 2: You know, Pope Francis. I think he's one of the

1126
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 2: most misunderstood popes. He has caused a lot of you know,

1127
01:16:12,240 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 2: a lot of speculation, a lot of opinion. You know,

1128
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:17,680
Speaker 2: people wondered is he coming in to change everything? And

1129
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:21,920
Speaker 2: you know, now ten years on, some things have changed

1130
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:24,720
Speaker 2: and some things haven't. I think the best way to

1131
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 2: understand him is that he is not someone you can

1132
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:32,439
Speaker 2: categorize on left and right, and we tend to do

1133
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 2: that because we have these political minds that try to

1134
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,760
Speaker 2: categorize is this is that, you know, an approach has

1135
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 2: left or right, liberal or conservative, And I think one

1136
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:46,040
Speaker 2: of the reasons why it's it's hard to understand him

1137
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:49,840
Speaker 2: is he's neither. He's someone who I would say is

1138
01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:53,519
Speaker 2: has a theology, a radical theology. And I use the

1139
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 2: word radical in the root sense, you know, like a

1140
01:16:56,479 --> 01:16:59,960
Speaker 2: Radish is a roote. So it means that he's getting

1141
01:17:00,160 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 2: back to a fundamental core, and that fundamental core is

1142
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:10,120
Speaker 2: going to be simultaneously challenging to all individuals because it's

1143
01:17:10,120 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 2: a Christian core and he's trying to witness to that

1144
01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:19,120
Speaker 2: as hope. So someone responsible with governing the church, but

1145
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:21,880
Speaker 2: witnessing to the core, which is the life of Christ,

1146
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 2: the life of Christ, which is one of one of poverty.

1147
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:28,360
Speaker 2: And so you know, even though he didn't have to

1148
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 2: do this, he's he's living in a small room in

1149
01:17:31,920 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 2: a Vatican hotel for you know, it's a hotel for

1150
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:37,280
Speaker 2: Vatican guests, but he's living there and not living in

1151
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:39,920
Speaker 2: the papal apartment. The papal apartment is something you know

1152
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:43,280
Speaker 2: that was considered larger and somewhere he didn't want to live.

1153
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:48,240
Speaker 2: And so he's living in a way that is witnessing

1154
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:52,560
Speaker 2: to a poverty because he's trying to help us reflect

1155
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 2: on a detachment from simply the pursuit of material wealth.

1156
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:01,719
Speaker 2: And and you can apply why that across the board.

1157
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 2: And so when when you know, when he's talking about

1158
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:09,120
Speaker 2: women and their involvement in the leadership of the church,

1159
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 2: you know, on the one hand, he hasn't he hasn't

1160
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,719
Speaker 2: changed the teaching on women priests, so it's still only

1161
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:18,080
Speaker 2: men can be priests. But at the same time, he's

1162
01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:21,040
Speaker 2: placing women in leadership positions in the Vatican that they've

1163
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 2: never held before, positions in which they have responsibility over

1164
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:31,080
Speaker 2: clergy in other departments of the Vatican. And so why

1165
01:18:31,120 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 2: is he doing that? Because he's he's he's getting to

1166
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:39,000
Speaker 2: a radical core of the teaching of the faith, which

1167
01:18:39,280 --> 01:18:42,479
Speaker 2: isn't necessarily placing him on left or right or what

1168
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:46,040
Speaker 2: you might have might think of as change versus conservatism,

1169
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:51,839
Speaker 2: but but focusing on the human dignity of the person.

1170
01:18:51,920 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 2: And you know, if I were to get to what,

1171
01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 2: you know, what is the principled radical core that he

1172
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,840
Speaker 2: has focused in on as pope, and it is I

1173
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 2: would say, it's the teaching of the Second Vatican Council

1174
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 2: that we have to unpack further as Christians and as Catholics,

1175
01:19:14,120 --> 01:19:17,680
Speaker 2: and as as actually brothers and sisters, no matter what

1176
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:20,719
Speaker 2: our faith background is across the world, or no background

1177
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 2: at all, no faith background, but we share a fundamental

1178
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 2: human dignity as Catholics. I believe that because I believe

1179
01:19:28,400 --> 01:19:31,720
Speaker 2: everyone's created the image and likeness of God. But in

1180
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 2: that share human dignity, I can unpack answers to questions

1181
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 2: that have emerged in modern society in ways that might

1182
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 2: shift my perspective or my presuppositions. And so you know,

1183
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 2: the course of the Church's teaching for instance on the

1184
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:54,920
Speaker 2: death penalty has always been that it was moral, but

1185
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 2: it should be limited. And and he's he's come out

1186
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:02,799
Speaker 2: and basically said, given our deeper and more profound understanding

1187
01:20:02,800 --> 01:20:05,759
Speaker 2: of human dignity, we should not use the death penalty

1188
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 2: anymore at all, and that it's inadmissible in all cases.

1189
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 2: And that's because he's gone back to the root of

1190
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 2: what it means to be creating the image likeness of

1191
01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:19,560
Speaker 2: God and then applied that root principle to our situation

1192
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:24,280
Speaker 2: today in which we have no exigent need as a

1193
01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:29,120
Speaker 2: society who can imprison people to execute someone. And so

1194
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:31,439
Speaker 2: now applying that today in our context where we have

1195
01:20:31,439 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 2: all the capability in the world to imprison someone satically

1196
01:20:34,479 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 2: and keep society safe from them if they're a dangerous

1197
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 2: if they're a danger to society, well we can now

1198
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:42,240
Speaker 2: say that, well we should not, in our mercy and

1199
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:44,120
Speaker 2: in our care for that person as a human being,

1200
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 2: we shouldn't execute that person. Now that's going to fundamentally

1201
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:52,599
Speaker 2: challenge people, because you know, the crimes that are committed

1202
01:20:52,880 --> 01:20:56,880
Speaker 2: might deserve death in a pure sense of justice. They

1203
01:20:57,000 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 2: might be you know, they might call call out to

1204
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 2: heaven be based on their evil that you know, this

1205
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,559
Speaker 2: person should be put to debt. But Francis has called

1206
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 2: us to look back at the core and then apply

1207
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 2: that core again in a renewed way to these situations.

1208
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 2: And he's done that, you know, with immigration, he's done

1209
01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 2: that with I think our political discourse. He's done that

1210
01:21:21,439 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 2: on issues related to the environment. And so he's speaking,

1211
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 2: I think, to a very broad audience in the world,

1212
01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:32,720
Speaker 2: saying we might not share a theological perspective, but we

1213
01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:36,560
Speaker 2: do share this sense that the human person and the

1214
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 2: human being madters, matters in a fundamental way. I know,

1215
01:21:40,640 --> 01:21:45,040
Speaker 2: I matter, you know you matter. That our actions have

1216
01:21:45,080 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 2: ethical consequences, that our actions affect each other. And given

1217
01:21:49,160 --> 01:21:52,160
Speaker 2: that we can discourse on that, even if we might

1218
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 2: not share a faith background, we can contribute to the

1219
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:03,040
Speaker 2: community in a way that it better reflects the the

1220
01:22:03,360 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 2: root human dignity that that we all share and that

1221
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 2: and that should be reflected in our social interactions and

1222
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:11,400
Speaker 2: in our politics.

1223
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:16,760
Speaker 1: Wise and deep words, Father Brad easter Brook, thank you

1224
01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:19,679
Speaker 1: for the time. Good luck to you as you come

1225
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 1: back to San Diego and ultimately back into the military.

1226
01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 1: UH with the United States Marine Corps and US Navy

1227
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:28,840
Speaker 1: sailors who keep us safe.

1228
01:22:29,560 --> 01:22:31,040
Speaker 2: Thank you Steve. It's been great to be on