Speaker 1: This is black and white. I mean, hold the hearings.
Speaker 1: Bring these people up. I mean Bill Barr, he is
Speaker 1: soaker up and the trail. He can't hide it. They
Speaker 1: can't scrub it or hide. It's all there. The only
Speaker 1: way that this gets buried and goes away is if
Speaker 1: somehow Congress doesn't open the sup.
Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I serve in
Speaker 2: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover
Speaker 2: all around the.
Speaker 3: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA,
Speaker 3: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.
Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we
Speaker 2: created conspiracies.
Speaker 3: In our operations. We got people to believe things that
Speaker 3: weren't true.
Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the
Speaker 2: news almost every day.
Speaker 3: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they
Speaker 3: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission Implausible. So now we're going to continue
Speaker 2: our discussion with Lev Parnas. As you recall, Lev Parnas
Speaker 2: is a Soviet born American businessman. He was a former
Speaker 2: associate of Rudy Giuliani's and along with Jiuliani in Ukraine.
Speaker 2: They were conspiring to create a theory that Joe Biden
Speaker 2: was involved in criminal activities.
Speaker 3: In October of twenty twenty one, Lef Parnas was found
Speaker 3: guilty of funneling money from pro Russian Ukrainian oligarchs to
Speaker 3: the Trump campaign.
Speaker 4: And he did his time and he's now out.
Speaker 3: So led Parnas was colluding with the Russians to funnel
Speaker 3: money into the Trump campaign.
Speaker 2: From the outside, Lev looked like another member of the
Speaker 2: rogues gallery that circled around Rudy Giuliani and the former president,
Speaker 2: many who like Lev, ended up serving time as such.
Speaker 2: We naturally had some reservations about Lev and as apparent
Speaker 2: change of heart, but like several others that have broken
Speaker 2: from the former president, his stories seemed to hold together,
Speaker 2: and since he has unique insights, we think it's valuable
Speaker 2: to hear from him, even if we're not totally okay
Speaker 2: with what he has done and how he got here. Well,
Speaker 2: let's continue with part two of our conversation with Lev Parnas, going.
Speaker 3: Back to twenty sixteenth. There is something interesting I just
Speaker 3: want you to comment on it. So in the run
Speaker 3: up to twenty sixteen, Trump said straight out, I have
Speaker 3: no business interests right now in Russia.
Speaker 4: Nothing going on.
Speaker 2: Trump said that in a presidential debate with Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 2: Here's a clip.
Speaker 4: I don't know Putin.
Speaker 5: I think it would be great if we get along
Speaker 5: with Russia because we could fight ISIS together as an example.
Speaker 4: But I don't know Putin.
Speaker 5: But I noticed anytime anything wrong happens, they like to
Speaker 5: say the Russians. The Russian doesn't know if it's the
Speaker 5: Russians doing the hacking. Maybe there is no hacking, but
Speaker 5: they always blame Russia. And the reason they blame Russia
Speaker 5: because they think they're trying to tarnish me with Russia.
Speaker 4: I know nothing about Russia.
Speaker 5: I know I know about Russia, but I know nothing
Speaker 5: about the inner workings of Russia. I don't deal there.
Speaker 5: I have no businesses that have no loans from Russia.
Speaker 5: I have a very very great balance sheet.
Speaker 3: Later it came out that was a lie that Rudy
Speaker 3: Giuliani and he were both working on putting in this
Speaker 3: large deal to put Trump Tower into Moscow, and that
Speaker 3: they had actually signed a letter of intent, and Rudy
Speaker 3: Juli had said, yes, we do have a letter of
Speaker 3: tent with Russia during the run up to the twenty
Speaker 3: sixteen elections. But it wasn't signed. And then he said, yes,
Speaker 3: it was signed.
Speaker 2: I think that was Cohen. Wasn't that Cohen, not Julianna.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I Rudy it was Michael Cohen and Felix Ader.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I stand corrected.
Speaker 3: So the Russians in the run up to the twenty
Speaker 3: sixteen election, they knew that Trump was lying to the
Speaker 3: American people, but the American people didn't know that that
Speaker 3: was a lie.
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely so.
Speaker 3: I mean in our world that's compromise, right, that's compromise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a compromid. But not only that, these are messages
Speaker 1: that they see. People think that Trump colluding with Russia
Speaker 1: means that Trump and Puchin again on the phone, and
Speaker 1: they concocted this plan. And now they go, no, that
Speaker 1: didn't happen. That's what I mean. That doesn't mean colluding
Speaker 1: didn't happen. You know, Trump is a useful idiot. He's
Speaker 1: doing things that Puchin himself can't imagine somebody would do
Speaker 1: strictly like out of Puchin's playbook, by dismantling NATO, by
Speaker 1: attacking Ukraine, by causing havoc in the States by telling
Speaker 1: the whole world America first, and we don't care about
Speaker 1: what happens, pulling our shoulders everywhere. You know, I mean
Speaker 1: all of these things is if could have asked them
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 3: I want to be clear for the audience to understand.
Speaker 3: So Trump knows and this has been proven, this isn't intersputed.
Speaker 3: Trump knows that he's lied, that there's a letter of
Speaker 3: intent that the Russians have, the information is still working
Speaker 3: in this and yet Trump trusted that Putin wouldn't come
Speaker 3: out during the election and say that's a lie. Here's
Speaker 3: the letter of intent. We do have a business deal
Speaker 3: on the tape.
Speaker 1: Correct, Well, don't forget Manifor was working for Trump.
Speaker 3: So Trump trusted that Putin wouldn't do that. And Trump
Speaker 3: knew that Putin could destroy him if he wanted to.
Speaker 1: But you can understand another thing. You can understand that
Speaker 1: Trump had the same analytics, if not even better than
Speaker 1: stuff that we were shown. They knew that Russia's involved
Speaker 1: in the elections. They knew Russia's but and that benefit
Speaker 1: when he was even asked the question, they said, you
Speaker 1: know what, presidents aren't really supposed to take foreign information.
Speaker 1: If somebody old you up and had said they had
Speaker 1: some dirt on Hillary Clinton, would you take it? He
Speaker 1: goes absolutely. What I'm saying to you is he wanted
Speaker 1: that interference, so he wanted to basically send messages back
Speaker 1: and forth that were playing ball. Just think about even this, guys,
Speaker 1: what benefit did Donald Trump have to do a couple
Speaker 1: of months ago when he came out on media and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden said I'm gonna, you know, NATO,
Speaker 1: if they don't pay up, you know, I'm going to
Speaker 1: tell Putchin he could do whatever he wants. People thought
Speaker 1: that was just a crazy rant, but there wasn't. It
Speaker 1: was a message sent to Putchin.
Speaker 6: NATO was busted until I came along. I said, everybody's
Speaker 6: going to pay.
Speaker 5: They said, well, if we don't pay, are you still
Speaker 5: going to protect us?
Speaker 6: I said absolutely not. They couldn't believe the answer, and
Speaker 6: everybody you never saw more money pour in. The Secretary
Speaker 6: General Stoltenberg, well, I don't know if he is anymore,
Speaker 6: but he was my biggest fan. He said, all these
Speaker 6: presidents came in, they'd make a speech, they'd leave, and
Speaker 6: that was a bit.
Speaker 5: And they all owed money and they wouldn't pay it.
Speaker 4: I came in, I made a speech.
Speaker 2: And I said, you got to pay up.
Speaker 5: They ak me that question.
Speaker 6: One of the presidents of a big country stood up said, well, sir,
Speaker 6: if we don't pay and we're attacked by Russia, will
Speaker 6: you protect us?
Speaker 5: I said, you didn't pay your delinquent.
Speaker 4: He said, yes, let's say that happened. No, I would
Speaker 4: not protect you.
Speaker 6: In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the
Speaker 6: hell they want.
Speaker 7: You gotta pay, you gotta pay your bills.
Speaker 4: And the money came flowing in.
Speaker 1: And what happened a couple of days later, which was
Speaker 1: a response from Putin, what happened Navani got killed. He
Speaker 1: responded to him by saying, basically, yeah, we will do
Speaker 1: what ever we want. And these are type of things
Speaker 1: actions there have. Because he didn't have to go say,
Speaker 1: he could have waited to be president and behind the
Speaker 1: door said that to NATO officials like normal presidents say
Speaker 1: and negotiate with him. He didn't have to come out
Speaker 1: while he's running for US and run on that platform.
Speaker 1: Just think about it. He basically said, I'm running on
Speaker 1: a platform. If I get into office, I'm going to
Speaker 1: dismantle NATO. Because they don't pay enough, and I'm going
Speaker 1: to allow Vladimir Putin to do what he wants.
Speaker 2: Understand each other exactly, You understand the systema exactly.
Speaker 1: That's that's why people say, well, did Trump tell you
Speaker 1: to do this? Exactly? No, Trump doesn't talk like that.
Speaker 1: Trump spoke to Rudy. Rudy filled them in and they
Speaker 1: came up to me and said, thank you for the
Speaker 1: good work. Continue the good job. That's that old New
Speaker 1: York Mafia type of way of doing things. Just in
Speaker 1: case you're being listened to, or just in case somebody
Speaker 1: you know, you're talking code. You talk to me. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't walk in and say I'm going to blow
Speaker 1: up your restaurant. You come in and say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: what a beautiful restaurant. God forbid, something should happen to it.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like that type of a system works too, exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's built off of the same narcissistic
Speaker 1: mentality of you know, fear power, intimidation.
Speaker 4: I got a question.
Speaker 3: According to Washington Post, Rudy Giuliani was specifically told by
Speaker 3: the FBI or somebody that he was being manipulated by
Speaker 3: Russian intelligence all these these people we talked about. Giuliani
Speaker 3: later sort of disputed that said, no, I wasn't told,
Speaker 3: so I don't know where that actually is. So he
Speaker 3: wasn't he told? And then second of all, what did
Speaker 3: the Russians think of what's it like to work with
Speaker 3: Rudy Giuliani? I mean, did they pick him because he
Speaker 3: was easy pickings?
Speaker 1: Like? No, you gotta understand. I mean, these people like
Speaker 1: Rudy Julian and Trump are really useful idiots. I mean
Speaker 1: they're spewing propaganda that the Russians themselves could make up.
Speaker 1: They've joined. They're both of their initiative and theory and
Speaker 1: purpose is on the same level. They both want to
Speaker 1: get Trump into office. It's like they know what needs
Speaker 1: to be done. The Russians know they need to interfere
Speaker 1: into our elections and do whatever possible to get Trump
Speaker 1: into office. And Trump and Rudy and everybody else knows
Speaker 1: that they need to deflect all of this to make
Speaker 1: sure the American public doesn't think it's the Russians and
Speaker 1: let them get away with whatever they're doing. And that's
Speaker 1: simply what's going on in open form the whole world
Speaker 1: to see. I mean they're not even hiding it. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's in plain sight. It's crazy.
Speaker 2: But when you say they're useful idiots, and that's a
Speaker 2: long time term used with sort of Russian intelligence and
Speaker 2: the Soviets. But do any of them believe it? Does
Speaker 2: Trump believe these things? Does Rudy believe this absolutely? And
Speaker 2: then the names of people we talked about Nunia's sessions,
Speaker 2: Juliana Perry, Ron Johnson, the Manaport. Did they know they're
Speaker 2: lying or do some of them actually believe this stuff?
Speaker 1: Well, some of them believe it, like for instance, Rudy
Speaker 1: and Trump, I mean think Joe Biden is corrupt, They
Speaker 1: think Joe Biden's whole family is corrupt. They think Joe
Speaker 1: Biden plagiarized stuff. I mean it goes back and back
Speaker 1: and back. So yeah, I mean they truly believe it.
Speaker 1: They just think they got him and they're going to
Speaker 1: disclose it. But then you got people like Ron Johnson,
Speaker 1: I mean, how could he believe the truth? Just think
Speaker 1: about he signed the letter to get Victor Choken fired.
Speaker 1: He was one of the congressmen, Republican Congressman Ron Johnson,
Speaker 1: Senator Ron Johnson that signed the letter saying that Victor
Speaker 1: Schokn is corrupt and he needs to go. In twenty
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen, whenever that letter was written, and now fast
Speaker 1: forward it in twenty eighteen nineteen. He didn't want to
Speaker 1: get involved and was put into this by the group
Speaker 1: and then said that he would push this information through
Speaker 1: the halls of Congress. And now fast forward it to
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. He's the leader. I'm saying that Victor
Speaker 1: Shokin was fired by Biden. So you told me. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's simple. I mean, this is how corrupt these guys are.
Speaker 1: It's just like Rudy Giuliani if you take a look
Speaker 1: at the Feartish stuff. Literally a month before he decided
Speaker 1: for us to take Fiata Sean and have Victoria Tonzing
Speaker 1: signed a million dollar contract with them and everything like that.
Speaker 1: A month before that, Rudy was on Fox TV saying
Speaker 1: that Demitri Featish is the worst of the worst, that
Speaker 1: how come he still hasn't been extra guited that this
Speaker 1: is a Russian acid intelligent that you're working with Ukraine
Speaker 1: inter fear in our elections. And then a month later
Speaker 1: he's taking a million dollars from him and everything is
Speaker 1: hon Kydorian we're moving forward and this is black and white.
Speaker 1: I mean, hold the hearings, bring these people up. I
Speaker 1: mean Bill Barr, he is so corrupt and the trail
Speaker 1: he can't hide it. The only way he could hide
Speaker 1: this trail is if they don't hold the hearings. It's
Speaker 1: all there. It's all in email messages, between interoffice emails
Speaker 1: and text messages. They can't scrub it or hide It's
Speaker 1: all there. The only way that this gets buried and
Speaker 1: goes away is if somehow Congress doesn't open this up.
Speaker 4: Let's take a breather and back in a moment, and
Speaker 4: we're back.
Speaker 3: You know, you were part of this conspiracy to create
Speaker 3: conspiracy Theoris John said. You were convicted of being a
Speaker 3: go between between Russian oligarchs to manipulate the US political system.
Speaker 3: And now you've come out on the other side and
Speaker 3: you're basically telling the truth. What was your personal journey
Speaker 3: from there?
Speaker 4: The truth?
Speaker 1: My only true conviction with that, And I am sorry
Speaker 1: and I apologized to is. You know, I had a
Speaker 1: business twelve years ago. It was supposed to be an
Speaker 1: insurance company anti fraud people to be able to get
Speaker 1: money back if they invested in the company. And that
Speaker 1: turned out to be fraud. And that's the company Rudy
Speaker 1: Giuliani stole half a million dollars from that never never
Speaker 1: even got investigated from. Yeah, I made mistakes. I lied
Speaker 1: to my I mean I had six shareholders. They were
Speaker 1: all my friends. You know. When I say lied, you know,
Speaker 1: it's not like I like to them to steal money
Speaker 1: from I like to them because I tried to build
Speaker 1: a business and do the right thing, thinking I'm doing
Speaker 1: the right thing. Was it wrong? Absolutely? And I admitted it,
Speaker 1: and I will pay back all the money. And I'm
Speaker 1: glad that I had a chance to reflect because back
Speaker 1: then I wouldn't think that what I did was wrong,
Speaker 1: but today I could admit it. As far as the
Speaker 1: other charges, I mean, let's go over them. My first
Speaker 1: charge was getting rid of a US ambassador with co
Speaker 1: conspirator and that Peede sessions that got dropped because they
Speaker 1: didn't want to bring Trump and everybody else. Then they
Speaker 1: superseded me, and they superseded me with election fraud. So
Speaker 1: let's go into election fraud. So one of the charges
Speaker 1: was saying that I lied to the FEC. Why is
Speaker 1: it consider aized because I got found guilty of election
Speaker 1: frauds so automatically because my statement to the FC is
Speaker 1: considered false, which I never liked nobody. I told them
Speaker 1: the true story that we had a real company, which
Speaker 1: they tried to say was a shell. The reason why
Speaker 1: they said that I was putting Russian money into elections
Speaker 1: was because my partner, Ego, was the main source of
Speaker 1: getting this money and we were putting it in and
Speaker 1: Ego had businesses all over the world. He would have
Speaker 1: Russian money, Ukrainian mush, Israel, America and Africa. He sold milk,
Speaker 1: import exported baby milk all over the world. So in
Speaker 1: his accounts, all that money was intermingled, and out of
Speaker 1: that account money went to Ron DeSantis and other you
Speaker 1: know congrahat Donald Trump. They didn't want to do nothing
Speaker 1: with Trump Ukraine. Nothing. All they tried to do is
Speaker 1: push the narrative that you know, we were trying to
Speaker 1: get rid of the US ambassador. And that's embarrassing because
Speaker 1: you're telling me and you guys worked for the CIA,
Speaker 1: our Service, Intelligence Services, the FBI, CIA and everybody's a
Speaker 1: lot better than that. They don't and especially the Southern District.
Speaker 1: You're gonna tell me they did all of the investigation
Speaker 1: arrested me and then dropped that charge a month later,
Speaker 1: and then started another investigation just to be able to
Speaker 1: make sure that I get convicted, and don't they don't
Speaker 1: have egg in their face.
Speaker 4: And why have you decided to tell the truth now?
Speaker 1: I start telling the truth after my arrest, right before
Speaker 1: the impeachment, after I got rid of Trump's lawyers John
Speaker 1: Dowd and Kevin Downing and hired my lawyer, Joe Bondi.
Speaker 1: We had met my wife and him. I remember in
Speaker 1: his office having a heart to heart and he told
Speaker 1: me that you can't do this half assed. Either you're
Speaker 1: all in or you got to just keep your mouth shut.
Speaker 1: And we spoke about pros and cons and I looked
Speaker 1: at my wife. I said, I want to be able
Speaker 1: to look at my kids in their eyes one time,
Speaker 1: and my grandkids and be able to say I did
Speaker 1: the right thing, that I was on the right side
Speaker 1: of history, you know, And I'm not going to keep
Speaker 1: quiet no matter what the cost is. And that's when
Speaker 1: I chose to go on Rachel Maddow and do that
Speaker 1: interview because my lawyer wouldn't allow me. The Southern District
Speaker 1: was very pissed at me because I want to tea
Speaker 1: but I knew I had to get up there and
Speaker 1: put it on the record what was going on. Even
Speaker 1: if that time people thought I was crazy because I
Speaker 1: had no proof. Everything was sealed. But now if we
Speaker 1: look it back four years afterwards, every single thing I said,
Speaker 1: and just like in the words of Jamie Raskin, they said,
Speaker 1: if Left Partners was able to testify in the first
Speaker 1: impeachment of Donald J. Trump, we wouldn't be here today.
Speaker 4: Here's more of that interview with Rachel Maydow.
Speaker 8: In terms of the information the allegations against Vice President Biden,
Speaker 8: mister Schokin makes allegations against mister Biden. Mister Lutsenko also
Speaker 8: makes allegations against mister Biden. Do you believe that those
Speaker 8: allegations were true.
Speaker 1: When we were dealing with it, when I was in
Speaker 1: the middle of the thick of things, I think I
Speaker 1: was kind of and I I keep saying, it's like
Speaker 1: a cultish, uh environment, uh, being around President Trump, because
Speaker 1: I mean, like I've been in DC for two years,
Speaker 1: I've never left the Trump Hotel type of a situation. So, uh,
Speaker 1: I truly believed seeing different information that was handed to
Speaker 1: us at that time that uh Joe Biden was doing
Speaker 1: something illegal. Uh, not so much Hunter Biden, but more
Speaker 1: Joe Biden. But after analyzing all the evidence and sitting
Speaker 1: back and really what's it called understanding what's going on?
Speaker 1: I don't think the I don't think Vice President by
Speaker 1: did anything wrong. I think he was protecting our country
Speaker 1: and uh getting rid of probably a crooked uh uh
Speaker 1: attorney general and uh people use this uh to their
Speaker 1: advance and a lot of rich people in Ukraine have
Speaker 1: their own agenda and they use us here for their
Speaker 1: own political stuff. So I think this was a big one.
Speaker 2: So what's next? I mean, obviously in this day and age,
Speaker 2: especially if you're dealing with maga folks, is they could
Speaker 2: be quite angry and violent. Are there threats against you?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: So what's the next next steps with this? And how
Speaker 2: do you protect yourself?
Speaker 1: First of all, my first protector is guid Almighty himself.
Speaker 1: He has a mission for all of us, and I
Speaker 1: really believe that he'll do the right thing and protect
Speaker 1: me in my family. But obviously I have to get
Speaker 1: security eventually, once I start getting out of the road
Speaker 1: and start I have a lot of things planned to
Speaker 1: have a documentary coming out with Rachel Maddow and Adam
Speaker 1: McKay and Billy Corbin and Alpha Spelling this summer. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the truth is going to get out,
Speaker 1: and we'll put a lot of pressure on these criminals
Speaker 1: like Trump, Juliani and some other people in Congress there
Speaker 1: run because it's not just Trump. We need to clear
Speaker 1: house of all of the cancer. It's not you can't
Speaker 1: just cut out a little, you have to cut out
Speaker 1: the whole thing. And that includes the Marjorie Greens, the
Speaker 1: tailor is that Jordan's. The list goes on. And also
Speaker 1: I have some things in the works I can't go
Speaker 1: into right now. It's a little bit secretive, but I
Speaker 1: think you'll all be happy and surprised that the next
Speaker 1: six seven months until the elections, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: very busy on the road in front of Trump.
Speaker 3: Before we go, I just got to ask, so we
Speaker 3: all watch Rudy Giuliani. I don't know self destructing unless
Speaker 3: you're on Fox right right self? What's it like to
Speaker 3: work with the guy? I mean, you hear all these
Speaker 3: things like he drinks too much and the hair dye
Speaker 3: and the women and what's the mess?
Speaker 4: Is all there?
Speaker 1: No, it's a sad story. He has nobody. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: he has no relationship with his kids, no relationship with wives.
Speaker 1: His best friend passed away several years ago. The only
Speaker 1: people around him he has. The people there try and
Speaker 1: get something out of him, and he knows it. And
Speaker 1: that's the life he lives. And he's a lonely man.
Speaker 1: Drinks a lot. Sold her soul to Donald Trump because
Speaker 1: he's a fame hug. That's his drug of choice. Not
Speaker 1: he not drugs, but fame. The story is going to
Speaker 1: be written where you know, Rudy Giuliani, he's not going
Speaker 1: to be known as that patriot hero. It's gonna be
Speaker 1: a sorry story of the man that could have been
Speaker 1: somebody but then turned out to be a treason, this
Speaker 1: criminal that ended up behind bars. And the fitting part is,
Speaker 1: you know he's going to end up behind bars in
Speaker 1: the rico charge, the same ricostutions law that he used
Speaker 1: to put so many people away. So, I mean it's
Speaker 1: poetic justice. I guess in Rudy Giuliani's life.
Speaker 3: What's the relationship with you? Him and they seem to
Speaker 3: have the special bond.
Speaker 1: No, they don't have a special I mean that's the
Speaker 1: crazy part. Trump doesn't respect them, doesn't give him the
Speaker 1: time of day. He uses him when he needs him,
Speaker 1: abuses him, and screams at him when he messes up,
Speaker 1: lets him come at certain events, keeps him away in
Speaker 1: certain places. It's weird, I mean. And the weird part
Speaker 1: is that Rudy would always talk about him getting paid
Speaker 1: from Trump, that he's going to get paid from Trump,
Speaker 1: but Trump would just never pay him. Pay everybody else,
Speaker 1: but wouldn't pay Rudy. You guta also understand. Trump blames
Speaker 1: ru on a lot of things, Like you know, one
Speaker 1: thing he blames Rudy for is that he never took
Speaker 1: the attorney general job and he had to give it
Speaker 1: to Sessions. And that's how the whole rushing gate started.
Speaker 1: And so you know, it goes all the way back
Speaker 1: to there. And then certain fuck ups that Rudy did,
Speaker 1: drinking a little bit, going on TV and Fox and
Speaker 1: making certain statements, remember with the money he did give
Speaker 1: them money didn't And remember Rudy drinks and Trump knows it,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't respect people to drink. And Rudy has
Speaker 1: been drunk more than one time in front of Trump
Speaker 1: and than the White House. So but Trump excuses that
Speaker 1: and looks the other way because Rudy is that you know,
Speaker 1: not even useful of it, but that dieharded it. That
Speaker 1: he knows that when also is done, he'll could turn
Speaker 1: to Rudy and Rudy will go and try and make it.
Speaker 1: Rudy's his Roy Kohen, but not the Roy Cole because
Speaker 1: Roy Colm he he respected man right like exactly exactly
Speaker 1: and effect right. You know, Royquohan would have got him
Speaker 1: out of them peachment. Rudy got him into the impeachment.
Speaker 1: So again, all of these guys knew what's going on.
Speaker 1: It was all a political ploy to get Trump back
Speaker 1: in the office and to do anything they can to
Speaker 1: get Bided out. And that's all this is about. But
Speaker 1: the extent that they went to where they've divided our
Speaker 1: country to where we're literally at war with each other,
Speaker 1: where you can't You're scared to go to work because
Speaker 1: you don't know who your boss is going to be
Speaker 1: and what you could say because you could get fired.
Speaker 1: You're scared to go to school because that you feel
Speaker 1: that you have to be scared of what you say
Speaker 1: to your classmates. I mean, kids are involved in these politics.
Speaker 1: I mean it is crazy you know, the message that
Speaker 1: he's trying to push along is one that you know,
Speaker 1: the only places I've heard it are places like Russia,
Speaker 1: places like communist countries where the past and it's scary
Speaker 1: and and you know, the only thing we could do
Speaker 1: is keep getting the Nazi Germany Nazi. I hate to
Speaker 1: say that, I always want to say it, but I'm
Speaker 1: glad you said, Jerry, because that if we look at history,
Speaker 1: Hitler was not hated. He was looked up as a bride, intelligent,
Speaker 1: somebody that has ideas. So these people they're chameleons. They
Speaker 1: do what they do to get to the power. Once
Speaker 1: they get that power, then the true colors come out.
Speaker 1: Difference between like a Hitler and like a Putin and
Speaker 1: Trump Trump, we see it Trump, we know it. We
Speaker 1: don't have to guess it. I mean it's there. We've
Speaker 1: seen his actions, we know the history. How better we
Speaker 1: hear him talking, if you hear his rallies that he
Speaker 1: goes on. It's not about policies, it's not about united
Speaker 1: in a country and being the president for all. It's
Speaker 1: all about division. It's all about we're going to get him,
Speaker 1: We're going to put him away, We're going to take
Speaker 1: it over. We're going to destroy It's scorched, earth, burn
Speaker 1: and fire. That's why I believe he's not going to win,
Speaker 1: because everybody I speak to is so scared and thinking.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine that American public will actually
Speaker 1: nominate a president that is indicted and than looking at
Speaker 1: eighty eight charges and has tried to start in insurrection.
Speaker 1: I don't believe it. And Nikki Haley really showed us.
Speaker 1: He showed us that there's a division inside of the
Speaker 1: Trump camp. Even though she lost, there's thirty forty percent
Speaker 1: inside the Republican Party there are won't vote for Trump.
Speaker 1: So I mean, he has a long way ahead of him. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it's going to be allowed and dangerous, and the scary
Speaker 1: part is, mark my words, the actions we're going to
Speaker 1: see from Vladimir Putin come this summer.
Speaker 2: We got to take a break now and we'll be
Speaker 2: back in just a minute.
Speaker 4: All right, we're back.
Speaker 2: Well, I was going to mention one thing too. You
Speaker 2: mentioned you were in Moscow when the when the tanks
Speaker 2: came out and everything. I was in the embassy then,
Speaker 2: and I was working with a young Marie Ivanovitch, who
Speaker 2: was a state to prominent officer.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, first.
Speaker 4: Tour, you were there when the tanks were there, right,
Speaker 4: were you?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Same inside the building and I was, I was right
Speaker 1: there on then it was called Gordikovskaya Natsirskaya, It was
Speaker 1: gordy Kovskaya, the street, it was right the Hotel Moscow,
Speaker 1: right on the Red Square, right next door. So now
Speaker 1: it's the Gholm. I think I think they have their
Speaker 1: underneath or something.
Speaker 2: I think it's all fancy now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I haven't been back a long time. It's
Speaker 1: been a while.
Speaker 2: We'll go to that when Putin's gone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, til then I can't go back.
Speaker 4: No, no, don't love.
Speaker 3: It isn't often we get to hear firsthand from someone
Speaker 3: who was involved in and contributing to, and actually creating
Speaker 3: a conspiracy theory. People should hear you out and make
Speaker 3: up their own minds. I think we can all agree
Speaker 3: that fax and truth should win out in the end
Speaker 3: whatever they are. So best to you and take care.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you very much, thank you, thank you. Guys.
Speaker 3: Let's bring in our August stage mentor Adam.
Speaker 7: Hey, guys, I am very excited to ask a lot
Speaker 7: of questions about lov partners and what he tells us
Speaker 7: about how active measures work.
Speaker 2: So, Adam, what's your impression of Lev and what he
Speaker 2: had to say.
Speaker 7: I'm really interested in LEV Partners because he's probably our
Speaker 7: best view into what really happened between forces supportive of
Speaker 7: Putin close to Putin and Russia, and the Trump campaign
Speaker 7: and Trump himself. To me, what I find so interest
Speaker 7: saying is it's at once real proof that something massive
Speaker 7: has happened, that there really are people in Moscow, either
Speaker 7: directly directed by the Kremlin or with clear thumbs up
Speaker 7: from the Kremlin, trying to manipulate our politics. So the
Speaker 7: idea that there's a Russia hoax is just thrown out
Speaker 7: the window by LEV Partners. At the same time, there's
Speaker 7: something so lame and sketchy about It's so unsophisticated, John,
Speaker 7: you ran the Russia desk at CIA? Is this how
Speaker 7: active measures work? With like kind of sketchy like I would?
Speaker 7: I don't know. I have in my mind some sophisticated, international,
Speaker 7: cultured figure who's very cleverly manipulating, And here it's you know,
Speaker 7: it's kind of thick necked, thuggy types.
Speaker 2: When you talk about covert action or these kind of
Speaker 2: things that the Russians or we might do. For example,
Speaker 2: there's two different kinds. There's ones that they might have
Speaker 2: cooked up to come up with somewhat sophisticated or clever
Speaker 2: plan to execute against the Western United States, and then
Speaker 2: there's taking advantage of opportunities. And so I think in
Speaker 2: this case, when Rudy Julie he was running around Ukraine
Speaker 2: looking for any kind of dirt on someone running for
Speaker 2: president the United States, it was just an opportunity for
Speaker 2: the Russians to take advantage of. And it had been
Speaker 2: going on for quite a while, and so this in
Speaker 2: a sense, this wasn't a very hard thing for the
Speaker 2: Russians to play in. They didn't have to be terribly sophisticated.
Speaker 7: But you'd think it was more opportunistic that they just
Speaker 7: they were doing a lot of things and this one
Speaker 7: kind of fell in their lap and it was thrown
Speaker 7: into their lap, thrown into their lab.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Adam Andre Denktajh, who is the US has
Speaker 3: has gone after for being a disinforma agent agent of
Speaker 3: Russian intelligence. He was sitting with Rudy Giuliani feeding him
Speaker 3: this stuff, and sitting next to them was Lev Parnas.
Speaker 3: So not only do you have evidence, you've got an
Speaker 3: actual witness who watched it all go down. And Rudy
Speaker 3: Giuliani was a useful idiot, a witting dupe. He knew
Speaker 3: that Derkosh was a Russian malign influence, Russian intelligence officer,
Speaker 3: and dealt with him anyway because he was getting what
Speaker 3: he wanted.
Speaker 7: Remind me to give me a list of all the
Speaker 7: agents you worked when you were CIA officers, all the
Speaker 7: foreign agents.
Speaker 4: No, we'll put that online for everybody. Yeah.
Speaker 7: Yeah, But I guess that's the other side of this
Speaker 7: that if you're going to go undercover to uncover the mob,
Speaker 7: you're going to have to act like the mob. So
Speaker 7: did you, like, I don't know what you can say,
Speaker 7: but did you deal with kind of sketchy marginal figures
Speaker 7: who happen to have close connections? Is that like typical
Speaker 7: of spycraft.
Speaker 2: So there's two different kinds of things that we're calling intelligence.
Speaker 2: There is intelligent collection, like having sources inside to give
Speaker 2: you insights and secrets that regime is trying to hide
Speaker 2: from the United States to help our plylies maakers. Then
Speaker 2: there's doing things, taking action to try to create problems
Speaker 2: or create issues. And that's what we're talking about here
Speaker 2: with the Russians. They were trying to do anything they
Speaker 2: could to mess with the United States electoral system. And
Speaker 2: so when we're trying to recruit a source who we
Speaker 2: want to be secret and hidden and in place for
Speaker 2: years providing intelligence to us, that's done with much more care,
Speaker 2: trying to find exactly the right people. We have strong
Speaker 2: motivations that can protect themselves, that can follow our direction. Now,
Speaker 2: if our job is in a war zone or trying
Speaker 2: to influence, you know, an election of another country, you
Speaker 2: might use people for a shorter period of time for
Speaker 2: a specific need. And so in this case, you know,
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani just put this out there for the Russians
Speaker 2: to see. Okay, there are people in the American political
Speaker 2: establishment who are looking for dirt on other people in
Speaker 2: the political establishment. This is a clear thing that we
Speaker 2: can use to create chaos and problems to side the
Speaker 2: United States. So in that case, you don't necessarily need
Speaker 2: to be looking for boy scouts. You need to be
Speaker 2: looking for someone who can just fulfill your short term need.
Speaker 7: But for the long term stuff, you want someone you
Speaker 7: can rely on because you're not with them all the time.
Speaker 2: You're not, you can't get them arrest You don't have
Speaker 2: to get them arrested. It creates a political problem.
Speaker 3: All these things, and it's important for people to know.
Speaker 3: We don't just collect information. We spend almost as much
Speaker 3: time verifying that information. You get one source who tells
Speaker 3: you something, you just don't go, oh, that's true. You know,
Speaker 3: you try to find documentary something that bakes it up,
Speaker 3: or another source who says, oh, that's true.
Speaker 7: So what surprised you did you learn from Lev?
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the first things that surprised me is
Speaker 2: that the people who are involved in a conspiracy, you know,
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani and Lev Parnas and others that were trying
Speaker 2: to create a fiction that Joe Biden's involved in some
Speaker 2: horrible criminal conspiracy that you know, they then left those
Speaker 2: people out to dry. And so it was similar to
Speaker 2: the earlier things where the Trump people left Michael Cohen
Speaker 2: and others who were part of the conspiracy. Then they
Speaker 2: treated them poorly, and then those people turned on that.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't be surprised by that. So Lev Parnas is
Speaker 2: one of these He was in the middle of this
Speaker 2: for all of this time, and they left him hanging
Speaker 2: out to dry. He went to prison, and when he
Speaker 2: came out, not surprisingly, he turned on them and was
Speaker 2: telling the truth about what was happening. If you're a
Speaker 2: criminal mastermind, you should find a way to treat the
Speaker 2: people who are working for you better for criminals in
Speaker 2: the future. This is something you can learn from.
Speaker 7: The word that I came to use to describe the
Speaker 7: Trump organization when I was reporting on the Trump organization
Speaker 7: was a platform that it's it's definitely not an organization.
Speaker 7: The way it worked. Did you have Donald Trump at
Speaker 7: the center, and then you have a bunch of staff members,
Speaker 7: Alan Weiselberg and others kind of around him and their
Speaker 7: full time job is just appeasing him. But then you
Speaker 7: had this outer ring and probably a few different outer
Speaker 7: rings of Tony's. But like freelance scumbags, I mean, they
Speaker 7: were just people who were kind of traveling the world,
Speaker 7: ginning up opportunities, who sort of had an either official
Speaker 7: or unofficial license to use the Trump name and bring
Speaker 7: deals to the boss. It feels like things you would
Speaker 7: see on The Sopranos, someone coming up to Tony Soprano
Speaker 7: and saying, hey, I just figured out this union scam
Speaker 7: or whatever, and it wasn't like, you know, there was
Speaker 7: like a strategy like oh, let's do this, this and this.
Speaker 7: Michael Cohen became really deep inner circle and actually achieving
Speaker 7: deals in Republica, Georgia and elsewhere. He tried really hard
Speaker 7: to get this Russia and Kazakh projects going and failed.
Speaker 7: And so you just have this kind of these tentacles
Speaker 7: out there of entrepreneurial kind of gray area of the lob.
Speaker 1: Folks.
Speaker 7: This is great, guys, Why don't we talk more about asiology?
Speaker 7: I think that if what you want is more seriology,
Speaker 7: just email. It's Jerry o'shay at.
Speaker 2: If this kind of exciting banter is what you look
Speaker 2: forward to, tune in next week for Mission Implausible.
Speaker 4: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry o'shay, John Cipher,
Speaker 4: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. This
Speaker 4: has been a
Speaker 3: Production of Abominable Pictures, an honorable mention for iHeart Podcasts.