WEBVTT - Creating the Uncrashable Car 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:24.076 Pushkin. For a while there, the discourse was full of 0:00:24.316 --> 0:00:27.836 self driving cars. They were right around the corner. Then 0:00:27.876 --> 0:00:30.476 they were not right around the corner. Now we have 0:00:30.596 --> 0:00:34.076 robotaxis in a few places, but not in most places, 0:00:34.476 --> 0:00:39.436 And for normal cars, autopilot does not really mean autopilot. 0:00:40.196 --> 0:00:43.356 In all this binary will they or won't they drive 0:00:43.436 --> 0:00:46.596 themselves talk? We've lost sight of something. Lots of people 0:00:46.636 --> 0:00:50.716 are figuring out big, interesting ways to bring new technologies 0:00:50.756 --> 0:00:54.556 to cars, even before we get to self driving cars, 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:57.316 which looks like at this point it could take a while. 0:00:57.596 --> 0:01:01.396 These new technologies could save thousands and thousands of lives. 0:01:05.756 --> 0:01:08.156 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, the 0:01:08.196 --> 0:01:10.476 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:01:10.516 --> 0:01:14.836 make technological progress. My guest today is Austin Russell. He's 0:01:14.876 --> 0:01:17.556 the founder of Luminar, a company that is developing a 0:01:17.596 --> 0:01:21.676 technology called lidar. Austin's problem is this, how do you 0:01:21.676 --> 0:01:24.956 make lidar cheap enough and good enough to use in 0:01:25.116 --> 0:01:31.156 millions of cars. LDAR stands for light detection and ranging. 0:01:31.356 --> 0:01:35.116 It's kind of a technological sibling of sonar and radar. 0:01:35.676 --> 0:01:38.796 A lightar system makes a detailed map of its surroundings 0:01:38.876 --> 0:01:42.836 by sending out pulses of light and analyzing the reflections 0:01:42.836 --> 0:01:46.636 that come back. Luminar's LDAR system will come standard on 0:01:46.676 --> 0:01:50.076 a new Volvo SUV that's going into production later this year. 0:01:50.476 --> 0:01:53.956 The company also has deals with Mercedes Benz and with Saic, 0:01:54.316 --> 0:01:57.636 a Chinese car company. Austin says LDAR can do a 0:01:57.676 --> 0:02:00.836 lot for cars even before we get to full autonomy. 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:05.076 It's not about replacing the driver, it's about enhancing the driver. 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:07.876 I think this is a really really important part around 0:02:07.916 --> 0:02:10.276 what we're doing is they we're not trying to do 0:02:10.356 --> 0:02:14.516 some moonshot of replacing the driver altogether and having are 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:17.916 welcoming our robotaxi overlords in a city near you like 0:02:17.996 --> 0:02:20.596 that's actually a very very challenging problem out on its own. 0:02:20.836 --> 0:02:24.636 Our goal is about enhancing the driver, making cars dramatically safer, 0:02:24.796 --> 0:02:26.716 going back to the original vision around what all this 0:02:26.716 --> 0:02:28.916 stuff was supposed to be in the first place, except 0:02:28.916 --> 0:02:31.516 actually making it happen. The reality is is that right now, 0:02:31.836 --> 0:02:34.236 you know, as many as one and a half million 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.836 people have their lives lost on the road every year 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:40.156 as a result of vehicle accidents. And this is something 0:02:40.196 --> 0:02:43.076 that's totally preventable for that matter. Like you know, it 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:45.436 sounds like a basic problem, but just don't let your 0:02:45.476 --> 0:02:47.156 car smash into the thing right in front of you. 0:02:47.676 --> 0:02:50.436 That's how you prevent most accidents. Turns out that's actually 0:02:50.676 --> 0:02:52.556 not as straightforward as a problem as you think, and 0:02:52.836 --> 0:02:54.836 to be able to have the confidence to you know, 0:02:55.396 --> 0:02:57.636 fully take over from the driver and those kinds of 0:02:57.636 --> 0:03:00.996 situations is not an easy thing. So that's where the 0:03:01.036 --> 0:03:02.756 lighter is coming into play for this kind of high 0:03:02.756 --> 0:03:05.236 performance lightar that gives you confidence to do that and 0:03:05.476 --> 0:03:07.356 can enable the car to take over the breaking system 0:03:07.356 --> 0:03:08.836 and steering wheel to get you out of those kinds 0:03:08.876 --> 0:03:12.396 of situations. Austin has been working on this problem for 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:15.596 a long time. He founded Luminar back in twenty twelve. 0:03:15.996 --> 0:03:19.876 At the time, Austin was just seventeen years old. Also, 0:03:19.996 --> 0:03:22.596 at the time, the use of LDAR in cars was, 0:03:22.836 --> 0:03:25.756 like Austin, barely out of its infancy. You take a 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:27.556 look back in the day, you have these hundred thousand 0:03:27.556 --> 0:03:29.676 dollars fitting systems, you know, out of the roof of 0:03:29.716 --> 0:03:32.636 these you know, test cars that are out there, and 0:03:33.596 --> 0:03:35.956 you know, generally low performance, you know, not something that's 0:03:35.956 --> 0:03:37.556 nearly as high performance is what it can be. So 0:03:37.596 --> 0:03:39.436 the moment you're starting to think about this is that 0:03:39.516 --> 0:03:41.916 moment when like what we kind of think of as 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:44.396 like the LDAR on the roof of whatever, the early 0:03:44.476 --> 0:03:47.076 like self driving Google vans or something like this great 0:03:47.076 --> 0:03:49.556 big thing and it costs one hundred thousand dollars. I 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:52.596 mean it feels sort of analogous to the like vacuum 0:03:52.636 --> 0:03:55.516 tube computers of the like nineteen forties fifties. I mean, 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:57.476 is that the right way to be thinking about it? Like, Oh, 0:03:57.476 --> 0:04:00.156 it's this giant thing. It doesn't work that well, but 0:04:00.196 --> 0:04:03.556 it's clear that somebody should be able to figure out 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:07.236 how to make it smaller and cheaper and better. Absolutely, yeah, 0:04:07.276 --> 0:04:08.796 I mean the key thing is is that you could 0:04:08.796 --> 0:04:11.236 see some times of things up to one hundred meters 0:04:11.276 --> 0:04:13.156 out with those systems. But the hard part was is 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:16.516 seeing you know, low reflectivity objects like like dark objects 0:04:16.556 --> 0:04:18.716 like a like a plaque car, a tire on the road, 0:04:18.756 --> 0:04:21.436 at person in dark clothing and anything begin to is 0:04:21.516 --> 0:04:23.076 very very difficult. So you set out to make this 0:04:23.156 --> 0:04:29.076 thing smaller and cheaper, like about two orders of magnitude cheaper, right, 0:04:29.116 --> 0:04:31.276 You got to drive down the price, like it's got 0:04:31.276 --> 0:04:34.156 to customs of what it costs, and it's got to 0:04:34.156 --> 0:04:36.916 be better. Right, that's that's that's what you're setting out 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:38.956 to do. It's got to be tenets better at one 0:04:39.556 --> 0:04:43.556 of the cost. Yes, very good classics tech problem a day. 0:04:43.556 --> 0:04:47.636 It's just hard because it's hardware. Um. So, so I mean, 0:04:47.676 --> 0:04:51.516 tell me a little bit about about doing that, right, Like, 0:04:51.596 --> 0:04:53.676 surely there were moments when things weren't working, when you 0:04:53.756 --> 0:04:56.196 thought it was harder than it seemed. Tell me tell 0:04:56.196 --> 0:05:00.876 me about one of those moments. Yeah. Absolutely, Um I 0:05:00.916 --> 0:05:04.756 would say, by the way, it's actually absurdly difficult. I 0:05:04.796 --> 0:05:08.396 wouldn't necessarily recommend it for anyone there too, just because 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:11.516 in this case it's a convergence of multiple things all 0:05:11.516 --> 0:05:14.156 at the same time. As you pointed out, hardware is 0:05:14.156 --> 0:05:17.676 hard already on its own, very very challenging. There's two 0:05:17.676 --> 0:05:21.076 other aspects of it are unique. There's the hardware. There's 0:05:21.116 --> 0:05:23.916 the fact that we're building crazy lasers and you know, 0:05:24.036 --> 0:05:27.476 and receivers and new custom chips that go into the systems. 0:05:27.476 --> 0:05:29.756 This is not something that you're using official parts like, 0:05:29.756 --> 0:05:34.196 you're creating new kinds of you know, three five special materials. 0:05:34.316 --> 0:05:37.196 You know that are not you know, your everyday silicon, 0:05:37.276 --> 0:05:38.596 you know that you can just be able to go 0:05:38.676 --> 0:05:41.116 and use and fab with. So there's a lot of 0:05:41.276 --> 0:05:43.276 very special things that go into this that we had 0:05:43.276 --> 0:05:47.196 to truly innovate from the physics up. So there's that part, 0:05:47.236 --> 0:05:49.756 and then there's also the automotive side of it, which 0:05:50.036 --> 0:05:52.516 by the way, is absurdly difficult out on its own. 0:05:52.596 --> 0:05:54.956 You know, just to be able to create something for 0:05:55.556 --> 0:05:58.956 automotive series production isn't by no means an easy task 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:03.156 at all, high regulatory barriers, has to be super reliable, 0:06:03.756 --> 0:06:06.636 has to be super scalable. Yeah. Yeah. But the thing 0:06:06.796 --> 0:06:09.756 is that these are long design side goals here too. 0:06:09.756 --> 0:06:12.436 I mean you're talking about you know, five plus years 0:06:12.476 --> 0:06:14.276 of planning, you know, to go into it before where 0:06:14.476 --> 0:06:16.156 we're going to see the light of day in a car, 0:06:16.356 --> 0:06:18.556 and you know, very serious stuff, and you're and you're 0:06:18.596 --> 0:06:20.676 talking also probably the better part of a billion dollars 0:06:20.716 --> 0:06:22.516 worth of investment to be able to get there if 0:06:22.516 --> 0:06:24.876 you want to actually get into a production car. Good. 0:06:24.956 --> 0:06:27.676 So I am persuaded that it's really hard that you're 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:30.756 setting out to do this very very hard thing. Yeah, 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:34.396 I mean I can imagine there must have been multiple 0:06:34.756 --> 0:06:39.356 difficult moments, moments when some didn't work. Tell me, tell 0:06:39.396 --> 0:06:45.636 me one of those. Oh, that's probablys of like, you know, 0:06:45.956 --> 0:06:49.556 hundreds of things, but you know you don't in the 0:06:49.636 --> 0:06:52.636 earlier stages and something else, especially you know for some 0:06:53.196 --> 0:06:55.516 crazy sixteen or seventeen year old at the time you know, 0:06:55.756 --> 0:06:58.436 first started out, you know that not everyone was always 0:06:58.436 --> 0:07:00.836 on the same page. You know, they're too or even 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:04.036 understood half the things I was saying, or ninety percent 0:07:04.036 --> 0:07:06.076 of the things I was saying. I mean, especially in 0:07:06.116 --> 0:07:09.636 the very early days. I mean, architecturally, tried every different 0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:13.116 type of combination of components, of wavelength of lights, of 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:16.516 you know, semiconductor materials, of everything to be able to 0:07:16.556 --> 0:07:19.156 do this, and I think we actually counted, Yeah, it 0:07:19.196 --> 0:07:20.996 was over two thousand. I think it ended up being 0:07:20.996 --> 0:07:25.156 four thousand different ways of failing before you could actually 0:07:25.196 --> 0:07:28.756 have the right combination of components that can solve all 0:07:28.756 --> 0:07:30.676 of these different problems that you're trying to solve. For 0:07:31.036 --> 0:07:32.596 what does it even mean to say you're trying four 0:07:32.596 --> 0:07:35.636 thousand different things. That's a lot of different things. It's 0:07:35.836 --> 0:07:37.596 it's a lot of different things. I mean, in some 0:07:37.636 --> 0:07:39.876 of those cases we were prototyping it. In most of 0:07:39.876 --> 0:07:42.236 those cases, it was it was more on paper or 0:07:42.276 --> 0:07:45.036 in simulation, and you know, it turns out the really 0:07:45.476 --> 0:07:48.916 presumably to some extent, you're putting things on cars, you're 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:52.236 trying things. You're putting Jane prototypes on type of cars 0:07:52.236 --> 0:07:57.036 and driving around the parking lot or whatever. Yeah, totally, totally, yeah, exactly. 0:07:57.116 --> 0:07:59.116 I think the first system that you have together, you know, 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:01.316 took up a whole trunk, you know, of the car, 0:08:01.436 --> 0:08:03.476 just to be able to prove out the concept. By 0:08:03.516 --> 0:08:06.156 the way, when you first put together these prototypes, you know, 0:08:06.196 --> 0:08:08.996 without your own custom components in it, there too still 0:08:09.196 --> 0:08:11.836 would blow up. You'd have you know, receivers that would 0:08:11.836 --> 0:08:14.876 like suddenly fry themselves. When you say blow up, do 0:08:14.916 --> 0:08:18.676 you mean literally or metaphorically? Oh no, literally literally something 0:08:18.836 --> 0:08:20.836 blew up in the trunk of your car or something. 0:08:20.956 --> 0:08:23.076 Or tell me tell me about something blowing up. That's 0:08:23.116 --> 0:08:26.476 what I wanted. Yeah, well, I mean you used to 0:08:26.556 --> 0:08:29.236 have it where you know, the office shelf receivers, you know, 0:08:29.316 --> 0:08:32.076 before we building our own custom receivers, they would end up, 0:08:32.796 --> 0:08:36.476 you know, they couldn't handle the amount of the energy 0:08:36.516 --> 0:08:38.876 from the laser pulse and they would just fry themselves, 0:08:38.956 --> 0:08:40.676 you know, so it would be it would be stuff 0:08:40.716 --> 0:08:44.756 like that. Um, talk about problem and talk about trying 0:08:44.796 --> 0:08:47.276 to do a you know, a demo ten years ago. 0:08:47.316 --> 0:08:49.556 There two of what you're of, what you're putting together, 0:08:49.596 --> 0:08:52.676 and then next thing, you know, your your your receivers pride. 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:57.276 So that's that's smoking smoke coming out of the trunk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:08:57.276 --> 0:09:00.316 exactly why why did Chip let the smoke out? You know? Yeah, 0:09:01.596 --> 0:09:04.436 stay inside? It was like a mad scientist lab that 0:09:04.556 --> 0:09:05.916 we had there, you know, I mean it was it 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:08.116 was the real deal. So so okay, how do you 0:09:08.156 --> 0:09:10.356 go from you know, things blowing up in the lab 0:09:10.756 --> 0:09:13.596 to a system that actually works where it's cheap enough 0:09:13.636 --> 0:09:16.236 to put on regular cars. The key was, you know, 0:09:16.276 --> 0:09:18.796 reducing the number of components you know, in the device. 0:09:18.916 --> 0:09:22.596 Normally you require these you know, hundred laser hundred receiver 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:26.036 arrays you know to build you know, something that has 0:09:26.076 --> 0:09:28.676 any reasonable level performance. You know. Basically found a way 0:09:28.676 --> 0:09:30.356 to be able to do that using only a single 0:09:30.396 --> 0:09:33.596 laser in single receiver as opposed to requiring one hundred 0:09:33.636 --> 0:09:36.436 or hundreds. And that was part of the magic. But 0:09:36.556 --> 0:09:38.676 we had to end up creating the most you know, 0:09:38.716 --> 0:09:42.196 special and powerful, you know, and most sensitive receiver of 0:09:42.196 --> 0:09:44.716 its kind in the world, and these special custom chips 0:09:44.716 --> 0:09:46.996 and a very special laser and all these things to 0:09:46.996 --> 0:09:50.956 make that all possible. Is that the key innovation, for 0:09:51.076 --> 0:09:55.116 lack of a better word, is figuring out how to 0:09:55.436 --> 0:10:02.196 get more range and sensitivity with fewer lasers and receivers. Yeah, 0:10:02.236 --> 0:10:06.276 that was a key part of the critical innovation and 0:10:06.316 --> 0:10:07.956 secret sauce and other stuff to be able to make 0:10:07.996 --> 0:10:10.436 that happen. Absolutely well, how do you do it? I 0:10:10.436 --> 0:10:14.956 mean presumably everybody else would have used fewer lasers and 0:10:15.076 --> 0:10:17.796 receivers if they could have, Like is it software? Is 0:10:17.796 --> 0:10:19.956 it hardware? Is it? But yeah, I mean we literally 0:10:19.956 --> 0:10:21.796 had to make our own custom chips in our own 0:10:21.836 --> 0:10:23.996 systems there too, to be able to make this possible. Otherwise, 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:25.596 as you said, everybody else would have done it. It's 0:10:25.596 --> 0:10:27.716 not out So you're not you're not just like monkey 0:10:27.756 --> 0:10:30.276 with the laser. You're you're designing a chip. You're designing 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:32.876 the semiconductor that's going to go inside of it. Yeah, 0:10:32.876 --> 0:10:35.796 oh yeah, yeah, we're crazy like that, Like that's that's 0:10:35.796 --> 0:10:37.636 what we had to do, and there was no other way. 0:10:37.836 --> 0:10:40.596 Everything else would just cost thousands or tens of thousands 0:10:40.596 --> 0:10:41.956 of dollars, and we had to even work at a 0:10:41.956 --> 0:10:44.996 completely different wavelength of light and completely different special materials. 0:10:45.116 --> 0:10:50.316 Those to the existing stuff just wouldn't get you still 0:10:50.356 --> 0:10:53.236 to come on the show and still to come for Luminar. 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:56.116 How do you build and sell wide our systems at 0:10:56.116 --> 0:11:06.196 scale and make a profit. That's the end of the ads. 0:11:06.636 --> 0:11:08.756 Now we're going back to the show. Is there a 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:11.396 moment when things and I know it's not binary, but 0:11:11.516 --> 0:11:13.596 is there some moment when it sort of flips from 0:11:13.596 --> 0:11:17.636 basically not working to basically working? One of them? I 0:11:17.636 --> 0:11:19.756 didn't you still see the image online? It was it 0:11:19.796 --> 0:11:25.516 was down Palm Drive here and Stanford exactly exactly, Yeah, 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:27.756 it's Stanford. And are you watching it in real time? 0:11:27.876 --> 0:11:29.836 Is the car like drive on a Palm drive and 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:32.836 you're looking at the car controlling the system there too, 0:11:32.876 --> 0:11:35.276 I'm looking at it? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So you're looking 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:37.596 at it on your laptop. You're basically seeing what the 0:11:37.636 --> 0:11:40.196 system is seeing on your laptop in the car. Yeah. 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:42.676 I had a monitor rigged up in the car there too, 0:11:42.716 --> 0:11:45.076 so I can actually go go watch and had a keyboard, 0:11:45.156 --> 0:11:46.916 had had a whole set up there too. Then, so 0:11:46.956 --> 0:11:50.476 you're sitting there, you got the thing rigged up, somebody's driving, 0:11:50.516 --> 0:11:55.236 you're looking at the laptop and what so they're driving. 0:11:55.636 --> 0:11:58.236 I'm there, I have a system set up, boot it 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:00.716 up to go, turn it on and see what the 0:12:00.756 --> 0:12:03.516 output is. And then next thing, you know, you just 0:12:03.556 --> 0:12:08.676 have this just this beautiful image of everything, or and 0:12:08.836 --> 0:12:12.356 I say beautiful in an almost artistic way, because like 0:12:12.956 --> 0:12:16.476 I've just been you know, for ten years and even 0:12:16.516 --> 0:12:18.796 at that time for years, just so deeply embedded in 0:12:18.796 --> 0:12:22.116 the data. I almost like see data, you know, like 0:12:22.156 --> 0:12:26.116 the matrix, like like the matrix exactly. No, that's the thing. 0:12:26.156 --> 0:12:28.756 It literally looks like you're in the matrix. Because you 0:12:28.796 --> 0:12:33.876 can fly around this three D world. It's like totally abstract, 0:12:34.036 --> 0:12:37.716 you know, colorations and perspectives and everything that you could 0:12:37.716 --> 0:12:39.996 never do in the real world. So it actually is 0:12:40.076 --> 0:12:42.716 kind of wild. What do you see in in this instance? 0:12:42.716 --> 0:12:46.596 What do you see? So I'm seeing rows of these 0:12:46.676 --> 0:12:49.236 palm trees here, which I think it turns out, are 0:12:49.236 --> 0:12:51.916 just really really distinctive and really interesting looking in the 0:12:51.996 --> 0:12:54.196 live ar at least because you have these different palm 0:12:54.276 --> 0:12:58.036 fronts that then all become incredibly distinctive where you can 0:12:58.076 --> 0:13:02.636 just see even all like the texture and the detail 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:05.356 of these leaves, where it can zoom and fly through them, 0:13:05.756 --> 0:13:08.716 you know, in three D because you could rerender it 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:10.956 any angle. That's the part of the software that we had. 0:13:11.276 --> 0:13:13.836 You know that that was just absolutely mind blowing to 0:13:13.876 --> 0:13:16.396 me at the time. And I was like, oh my gosh, 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:18.956 it's it's it really all came together to work because 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:20.316 you don't know, right, you know, I mean, you you 0:13:20.596 --> 0:13:22.916 try this stuff over and over and over and over 0:13:22.956 --> 0:13:24.796 and over again until you can get like you can 0:13:24.836 --> 0:13:26.756 get it to be in a really good place. So 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:29.276 not only are the pump chase beautiful, but your your 0:13:29.316 --> 0:13:32.956 thing is working, your system is working. Yeah, exactly, Like 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:34.676 I always had these tears of joy, and I was 0:13:34.876 --> 0:13:38.476 like looking out of you know, because it's picking up 0:13:38.516 --> 0:13:41.276 stuff so far off, because it's you can see so 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:44.396 small away. It's picking up stuff one hundreds of meters away, 0:13:44.516 --> 0:13:47.396 centimeter level precision detail. I mean, not to mention the 0:13:47.396 --> 0:13:49.476 whole thing's actually working in the first place. You know, 0:13:50.316 --> 0:13:53.236 it's it's um because the tech all came together and 0:13:53.516 --> 0:13:55.996 that there's stuff like that that that just makes all 0:13:55.996 --> 0:13:58.356 that different let's talk about kind of where you are 0:13:58.436 --> 0:14:00.516 right now in terms of what vehicles you're in and 0:14:00.596 --> 0:14:02.716 going into, and also where you've gotten the cost to 0:14:03.316 --> 0:14:05.356 and sort of what you still need to do that 0:14:05.396 --> 0:14:08.756 you haven't done yet. The overall goal of what we 0:14:08.796 --> 0:14:12.076 have from a big picture standpoint is to move. It 0:14:12.156 --> 0:14:16.236 is to build and enable the uncrashable car. So to say, 0:14:16.276 --> 0:14:19.076 you know something that where we can eliminate vehicle accidents 0:14:19.076 --> 0:14:21.676 and make any thing of the past, And is there 0:14:21.876 --> 0:14:23.716 I mean, do you have like a well one hundred 0:14:23.756 --> 0:14:25.996 year vision when you say the uncrashable car, do you 0:14:26.036 --> 0:14:28.636 have a year in your mind when it'll be possible 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:32.476 to build the uncrashable car? Well, that's why I said 0:14:32.476 --> 0:14:35.836 the hundred year vision. But no, no, no, But but 0:14:36.516 --> 0:14:40.476 I think lifting already from a system that's there today 0:14:41.076 --> 0:14:43.956 much less for the future, could already start preventing massive 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:47.476 amounts of accidents. Tell me about what what sort of 0:14:47.476 --> 0:14:50.756 the frontier for you? Clearly you've made this thing work, 0:14:51.356 --> 0:14:54.436 carmakers are starting to buy it. What haven't you figured out? Yet? 0:14:54.436 --> 0:14:56.356 What are you working on now that you still haven't solved? 0:14:57.236 --> 0:15:02.036 Execution scale? You know, continuing to evolve and mature of 0:15:02.076 --> 0:15:04.956 the business, you know, building software layers on top of 0:15:04.996 --> 0:15:07.996 the hardware. How is the how is the unit economics? 0:15:08.036 --> 0:15:10.316 The unit economics seem like they could be hard. You're 0:15:10.356 --> 0:15:14.556 not the only company selling lighter There are other big companies, 0:15:14.596 --> 0:15:17.316 like you know, there's a hard Wares is a famously 0:15:17.396 --> 0:15:20.876 hard business, partly for that reason, Like is that hard? 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:24.756 That part's less hard? Actually? Um, I think that's something 0:15:24.796 --> 0:15:30.516 when you have a fundamentally differentiated and value technology there too, 0:15:30.556 --> 0:15:33.956 that just is distinctive. The only thing that actually matters 0:15:34.036 --> 0:15:36.076 is how you can successfully execute and how you can 0:15:36.116 --> 0:15:38.956 be able to build this up. Because right now, what's 0:15:38.996 --> 0:15:41.476 the percentage of cars out there that are that are 0:15:41.476 --> 0:15:43.796 currently lighter equipped or going to be lighter equipped? I 0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:46.476 mean in the immediate it's still like, you know, less 0:15:46.476 --> 0:15:48.996 than a percent, you know of the overall market. Like 0:15:49.036 --> 0:15:51.756 this I was going to get your market opportunity, Yeah, 0:15:51.756 --> 0:15:53.836 it's it's like, yeah, it rounds to zero, you know. 0:15:54.116 --> 0:15:56.316 So that that's the thing is that you know when 0:15:56.396 --> 0:15:58.436 you when it comes in with this whole next wave, 0:15:58.556 --> 0:16:01.156 you know there's that trillion dollars of opportunity, you know 0:16:01.196 --> 0:16:03.876 that you have ahead to do it. It's actually, I mean, 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:06.476 is it is it hard to be profitable? Like, is 0:16:06.476 --> 0:16:09.116 it hard to get the profitable? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:16:08.996 --> 0:16:11.596 I mean but here's the thing, here's the thing right now, 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:15.396 it's a game of survival ever everything. I mean, you're 0:16:15.396 --> 0:16:18.396 you're you're familiar with the macroeconomic environment and everything for 0:16:18.436 --> 0:16:21.756 like growth technology companies there too. You can't raise money, 0:16:22.036 --> 0:16:25.076 you know, you're basically ninety percent of companies out there 0:16:25.076 --> 0:16:28.076 are totally screwed, you know, because there's no opportunity to 0:16:28.076 --> 0:16:32.676 be able to actually deliver on you know, a real 0:16:32.796 --> 0:16:35.316 product towards the real industry with real revenue and real 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:39.356 capabilities or any real order book. Luminar is losing money, right, 0:16:39.436 --> 0:16:42.436 Luminar is not breaking even, No, we're not. We're not 0:16:42.516 --> 0:16:46.156 profitable overall as a company on a unit economics basis obviously, 0:16:46.276 --> 0:16:47.916 you know, for for the contracts of the stuff that 0:16:47.916 --> 0:16:50.636 we have signed up for that that is you know, uh, 0:16:50.956 --> 0:16:54.596 generating real money there too for us. But is it profitable? 0:16:54.916 --> 0:16:57.436 Are the unit economics profitable? I mean, obviously it's generating 0:16:57.476 --> 0:17:00.596 revenue yeah yeah, yeah for the production absolutely yeah yeah, 0:17:00.676 --> 0:17:03.956 so um yeah no no, And that's important of course, 0:17:03.996 --> 0:17:06.556 because you know it we lose money on every linear 0:17:06.596 --> 0:17:08.356 but we make it up in volume. Yeah, you make 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:11.036 it up in volume. Yeah, exactly, exactly, Which, just to 0:17:11.076 --> 0:17:14.796 be clear, that is the strategy of like a lot 0:17:14.876 --> 0:17:17.436 of these growth companies and technology of these A lighter 0:17:17.476 --> 0:17:20.956 companies and av companies and everything is just obviously that's 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:23.436 sustainable only for so long as long as you can 0:17:23.516 --> 0:17:27.076 have venture money funding it. Yeah, when the venture money 0:17:27.796 --> 0:17:31.596 isn't there, So when you're going to be profitable in theory, 0:17:31.636 --> 0:17:33.676 if you know, if you said, hell or high water, 0:17:33.676 --> 0:17:35.596 we're going to become profitable this year, you can you 0:17:35.596 --> 0:17:37.396 could find I con find a way to do that. 0:17:37.436 --> 0:17:39.396 It wouldn't be the right move for the business, but 0:17:39.556 --> 0:17:41.436 you know, there's also ways that you can love her. 0:17:41.996 --> 0:17:44.636 You mean, basically, stop stop spending money on R and 0:17:44.716 --> 0:17:46.916 D essentially and just make and sell the thing that 0:17:46.996 --> 0:17:49.756 you already know how to make and sell. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 0:17:49.756 --> 0:17:53.356 I could stop all investments for our future exactly, you know, 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:55.516 but but that would be dumb as well. So you know, 0:17:55.516 --> 0:17:57.756 we've been in a good position, but it's it's just 0:17:57.796 --> 0:17:59.956 to be clear, it is not easy, Like this stuff 0:18:00.036 --> 0:18:05.316 is really freaking hard. In a minute, the lightning round, 0:18:05.796 --> 0:18:08.836 including the finer points of dropping out of college and 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:12.716 how to hack both hardware and, maybe more impressively, the 0:18:12.796 --> 0:18:20.916 Bay Area real estate market. Now let's get back to 0:18:20.956 --> 0:18:23.956 the show. I want to finish. I appreciate your time. 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:28.316 Almost done. I want to finish with Lightning round A 0:18:28.396 --> 0:18:33.396 bunch of quick questions. Absolutely, what's the most useful thing 0:18:33.436 --> 0:18:38.676 you learned in your twelve weeks of college? That it's 0:18:38.756 --> 0:18:42.916 not for me? Good? Who should drop out of college? 0:18:43.476 --> 0:18:47.276 Anybody that wants to build a great business and not 0:18:47.396 --> 0:18:50.956 being massive amounts of student debt. Okay, it's a ringing 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:54.116 endorsement of dropping out. I like it's it's it's a 0:18:54.196 --> 0:18:57.516 spicy take, absolutely, and it's not for everyone. It's it's not, 0:18:57.596 --> 0:18:59.596 but but the reality is is that it is for 0:18:59.636 --> 0:19:01.636 a lot of people, and I think that's something that 0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:06.916 needs to be a more celebrated path. Who's your favorite inventor? Oh? 0:19:07.036 --> 0:19:11.156 Probably maybe Isaac Newton. Uh it's interesting to think about 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:14.596 him as an inventor, Like, well, in your mind, what 0:19:14.636 --> 0:19:19.436 did he invent? Calculus? Yes? Sorry, the field of optics? 0:19:19.636 --> 0:19:23.956 You know from optics? Yea, optics and of course, uh 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:25.956 I read that when you were a kid and your 0:19:25.996 --> 0:19:28.116 parents wouldn't let you have a have a cell phone. 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:30.556 You hacked your Nintendo Wei to make it a phone? 0:19:30.836 --> 0:19:32.556 First of all, is that true? And second of all, 0:19:32.596 --> 0:19:35.076 if so, do you still hack stuff around the house now? 0:19:35.636 --> 0:19:39.716 So source it's it's partially true. It was my Nintendo DS, 0:19:39.716 --> 0:19:42.156 so that's that's all it is true. I did also 0:19:42.156 --> 0:19:45.556 hacking Nintendo, but as a difference, yes, DS makes more sense. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:45.636 --> 0:19:47.516 yeah exactly. Then a guy actually care about has a 0:19:47.596 --> 0:19:50.076 has a microphone at a speaker, had you know a 0:19:50.196 --> 0:19:52.996 void capabilities there too, so you know it always do 0:19:53.076 --> 0:19:55.756 fun stuff like that. Any example of a big or 0:19:55.876 --> 0:19:59.956 small hack in your adult life, actually talk about hacks. 0:19:59.996 --> 0:20:02.276 There was literally something like a content called like a 0:20:02.316 --> 0:20:04.116 hacker house, you know that you'd have that you were, 0:20:04.156 --> 0:20:05.796 you'd have a bunch of entrepreneurs. Let me the same 0:20:05.796 --> 0:20:09.956 plant watch Silicon Valley. Yes exactly. So when when I 0:20:10.076 --> 0:20:13.556 first came to Silicon Valley, I actually ran a number 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:16.356 of hacker houses there too, which was talk about a hack. 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:18.796 You know, no one would fund my business or do 0:20:18.796 --> 0:20:20.396 I have anything to do with this early on because 0:20:20.396 --> 0:20:22.116 they're like what the heck? You know, like that sounds 0:20:22.156 --> 0:20:23.956 crazy and all this stuff. So I actually ended up 0:20:23.956 --> 0:20:26.076 self funding it by renting out a bunch of these 0:20:26.116 --> 0:20:28.996 crazy mansions, you know, take out debt to go do that, 0:20:29.196 --> 0:20:32.236 and then would sublet each of the individual rooms to 0:20:32.276 --> 0:20:35.276 other entrepreneurs, you know, for thousands of dollars per month um, 0:20:35.516 --> 0:20:38.076 you know, to be able to actually then generate revenue, 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:40.516 generate income that it would would fund towards the business. 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:43.036 Is that the way you funded Luminar at the beginning? 0:20:43.516 --> 0:20:45.596