1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: On this episode of news World. Many have led us 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: to believe that there are only two approaches to climate change, 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: domerism or denial. In his new book, The Conservative Environmentalists, 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: author Benjie Backer offers a fresh, audacious approach needed to 5 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: ensure a sustainable future, and particularly one that works for America. 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: Drawing on cutting edge science, a deep understanding of local 7 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: community needs, and his experience rallying politicians on both sides 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: of the aisle to take action, Backer offers hope for 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: everyone who cares about the state of the great outdoors. 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Here to discuss his new book, I'm really pleased to 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: welcome my guests, benjie Backer. He is the president and 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: founder of the American Conservation Coalition, the largest right of 13 00:00:55,000 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: center environmental organization in the country. Benji, welcome and thank 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: you for joining me on newts World. 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: It's a pleasure to be here, especially with your conservation 16 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 2: and environmental legacy. It's going to be a really fun conversation. 17 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: Well, it was great meeting you in person at the 19 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: Republican National Convention in July, so this is kind of perfect. 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 3: Timing, really perfect timing. 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: But before we dive into the book, tell us a 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: little bit more about your organization, American Conservation Coalition. 23 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: Well, before I get into that, a little bit of 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: background and of how I get into this. I'm twenty 25 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 2: six years old and I grew up in the northeastern 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: part of Wisconsin, which if you think about my age 27 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 2: twenty six years old, growing up there, there was a 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: lot happening in politics. Scott Walker was getting recalled during 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: my eighth grade year of middle school. 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 3: Obviously lived through. 31 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: The twenty twelve and twenty sixteen presidential elections in a 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: battleground state as well as two thousand and eight, and 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: it actually started in two thousand and eight. 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 3: For me. 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: I became really inspired by the way that politics was 36 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: operating at that point, you know, John McCain and Barack Obama. 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 3: I watched their debates on TV. 38 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: My parents were independent, undecided voters, not politically active, and 39 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 2: they were watching the debate and I just felt super 40 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: inspired about the conservative vision for America and something that 41 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 2: you really helped lay the foundation for. And I also 42 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 2: watched you, you know, debate in those elections, and so 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 2: it's just a really amazing opportunity as a kid to 44 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: kind of feel connected to politics. 45 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: In a weird way. 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: So I started campaigning for different candidates locally, and I 47 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: spoke at CEPAC freshman year of high school. So things 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 2: happened pretty quickly in my political career because of my 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 2: youth activism. But I was really inspired by conservative beliefs. 50 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: But I also cared deeply about the environment. My parents 51 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: have a cabin in the north Woods of Wisconsin that 52 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: has been in our family for generations, and my favorite 53 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: memories are all outdoors, really, and so when I started 54 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 2: to kind of grapple with the reality that environmental issues 55 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 2: were partisan in a way that they weren't in previous 56 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: decades throughout history, including the time when you were so influential, 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: like that really frustrated me. And I decided to start 58 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: the American Conservation Coalition in college as a freshman because 59 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: I wanted to get conservatives back to the table on 60 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: these issues. There's the Sierra Club, There's the League of 61 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: Conservation Voters. There's all these groups on the left of center, 62 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 2: and some of them are well intentioned, some of them 63 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: have different intensions than I do in terms of our 64 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: political beliefs, and some of them are flat out partisan. 65 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: But there was nothing as a conservative to join, and 66 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 2: so ACC was meant to do that. We started out 67 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: on college campuses. Now we have fifty four thousand members 68 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: across the country in two hundred different chapters, and we're 69 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: basically building the Conservative Environmental Movement a to represent conservative values, 70 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: but be ultimately to make it nonpartisan again. 71 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: Well, I think that's really important. Originally taught environmental studies 72 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: and the nineteen seventies. In fact, I taught in the 73 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: Second Earth Day. Back then it really was truly bipartisan, 74 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: and gradually the League of Conservation Voters, the Sierra Club 75 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: and others became more and more liberal, and it didn't 76 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: really matter what your record was on the environment, they 77 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: weren't going to endorse you. So I think having re 78 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: establishing a balance in getting people to understand that preserving nature, 79 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: preserving wildlife, being aware of whether it's clean air and 80 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: water or its climate, all these things legitimately transcend normal partisanship. 81 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: So I'm very impressed with the size of the organization 82 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: you've already grown. He wrote a book entitled The Conservative 83 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: Environmentalist Common Sense Solutions for a Sustainable Future. What prompted 84 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: you to write the book? 85 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: Well, I actually sharing this story recently, I was sitting 86 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: on top of a mountain in Norway in the Arctic Circle. 87 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 2: Like I said, my favorite memories are outdoors, My favorite 88 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: moments are outdoors. And I was taking my first vacation 89 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: like six or seven years after starting this organization, and 90 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: my publisher Penguin had reached out asking me to write 91 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: this book because there's really no other conservative voice on 92 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: this issue that's prominent in today's politics, and with like 93 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 2: the age, you know, having a youthful kind of view 94 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: of how we can build the future. So they had 95 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: asked me to write this book. But I've never dreamt 96 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: of writing a book. It's not something that I've really 97 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 2: thought about doing, and so I kind of delayed it, 98 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: delayed responding, and I was sitting on top of this 99 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: mountain and I was thinking, like, I've built this organization, 100 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 2: We have amazing members, amazing advocacy allies in Congress, the 101 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: parties starting to shift. What do I point people to 102 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: as a resource to give a sense of what we 103 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: stand for? Obviously I can't do it all in one book, 104 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: and it's always going to change in terms of the 105 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: policies that we need and the different science that is unveiled, 106 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: but there's really no book. And I looked at the 107 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: thousands of books that you know, people like Greta and 108 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 2: AOC and those sorts of people have written, and I 109 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 2: had never been able to find something to point people to. 110 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 2: So that's really what drew me, is like my love 111 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 2: of the environment being on top of that mountain, being 112 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: super clear headed, realizing that I needed to do this, 113 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: but also filling that gap because for so many conservatives, 114 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: this issue is really frustrating. I mean, you're talking about 115 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 2: when this issue used to be bipartisan, over ninety percent 116 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 2: of Americans identified as environmentalists during that time. 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 3: That number is about forty percent today. 118 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: People didn't just stop hating the people didn't just start 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:44,359 Speaker 2: hating the environment, They started hating the political side of 120 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 2: it and the radical dialogue that really became toxic from 121 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: largely the left. But then the right didn't propose its 122 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: own solutions, and people are really frustrated by that. And 123 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: so my goal with the book was to kind of 124 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: give a hopefully breath of fresh air for people who 125 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: want to engage in environment mental dialogues, maybe feel like 126 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 2: they haven't been able to, or they want some sort 127 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 2: of alternative solution and really a solution that puts America first, 128 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: that puts our economic interests first, that puts people first, 129 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: and puts the environment first. You can do that, and 130 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 2: I know that. I say first, right first means one thing. 131 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: You can share all those values at the same time 132 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: as you well know, you can promote all of those values. 133 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: And I think that's what the left has been missing, 134 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: and that's where the right can really step in. And 135 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: that's what I tried to capture in the book as 136 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: much as I could in two hundred pages. 137 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you make a point also which I think 138 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: many conservatives don't realize that conservatism has a very long 139 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: track record of doing pro environment things and of being 140 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: very very aware of conservation. Can you talk a little 141 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: bit about people like Theodore Roosevelt and the scale of 142 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: the change that they represented. 143 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: To be honest, it's similar to slavery and the equal 144 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: rights movement, where one side seems to dominate the narrative now, 145 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: but it was the other side who created the solutions 146 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 2: in the past, and we really should be recognized for 147 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 2: that and re up our interest in those issues on 148 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: the environment, because Teddy Roosevelt, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, 149 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: These were all the biggest environmental leaders in American history. 150 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: They created the National Park System, They created the Environmental 151 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: Protection Agency, the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act, 152 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 2: the Endangered Species Act. They helped solve the ozone issue 153 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,439 Speaker 2: that we had in the seventies and eighties. They signed 154 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: the first ever climate assessment. These are Republican presidents that 155 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,679 Speaker 2: did all of these things between the early nineteen hundreds 156 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: and the early twenty first century, and that's forgotten in 157 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: American politics now. I'm not going to sit here and 158 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: say Republicans only did that, as you know, like democrats 159 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: worked alongside them, but it was Republicans who led those 160 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 2: efforts and they found sensible solutions. And I think the 161 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: average person would say, well, what happened? Why did that change? 162 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: And how did this become now a left leaning issue 163 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: where they are dominating the dialogue and like you said, 164 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 2: endorsing people not based on the environment. What happened, Well, 165 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: people realized on the left that you could win elections 166 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: based off of this issue, largely because people in my 167 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 2: age demographic care so much about it and instead of 168 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: it being just like a given right, you know, you 169 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: didn't even really need to campaign on the environment. It 170 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: was a given you were going to lead on it. 171 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 2: Now it's a number two or three talking point in 172 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: every Democrat candidate's platform, and they're kind of needing to 173 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: outradicalize each other to come up with solutions so that 174 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 2: they can stand out from one another. So it became 175 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 2: a campaign issue and a political issue, and then everyone 176 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: forgot that it was Republicans that had led on this 177 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 2: in the past. So I think, you know, we need 178 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: to understand that legacy, look back at history and see 179 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 2: what worked, and return this issue to sensibility, because our 180 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: environment deserves it, but so do our people, and right 181 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 2: now we're having radicalism versus radicalism and it's not working. 182 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: The key central issues over the last ten or fifteen 183 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: years has been this whole question about whether or not 184 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: the climate is changing, whether global warming is real. You've 185 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 1: done a lot of research on this. 186 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: What is your take, if I'm being honest. I started 187 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: out as a climate skeptic, climate denier. I was speaking at, 188 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 2: like I said, seapack and tea party rallies and really 189 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: active in that in the conservative wing in early high school. 190 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 2: And during that time. The reason I bring that up 191 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: is because during that time I was very skeptical of 192 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: climate change, largely for the same reasons why conservatives are skeptical. 193 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 2: It seems like a excuse to have more government takeover. 194 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 2: It seems like fear mongering to get us to do 195 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: things that they want us to do. Totally agreed with that, 196 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: and still do. But then I started to look into 197 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: it for myself and started to look at kind of 198 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 2: the consensus. And I'm not going to say one hundred 199 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: percent consensus, because that's never true in science, but the 200 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: growing consensus that humans have a role in the changing climate, 201 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 2: that yes, the climate change is naturally, but humans are 202 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 2: accelerating that change and are playing a big role. And 203 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: I do believe that humans are contributing to climate change. 204 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: I believe that putting carbon emissions in the atmosphere, putting 205 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: more pollution in the atmosphere at its core, is not 206 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 2: a good thing. We've seen that be true with other 207 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: pollutants in the past. That's true on this but I 208 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: also think that it's not the doomsday scenario that the 209 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: left of center trize to paint it as, and the 210 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 2: science backs both of those beliefs up. I've actually spent 211 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: a lot of time with some of the most prominent 212 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: climate scientists, people that you would think are super liberal, 213 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 2: but they actually don't really have a political agenda. They 214 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 2: are more frustrated with AOC and those sorts of people 215 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 2: misattributing the science, making it see worse than it is, 216 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 2: and fear monitoring people. They're more frustrated with that than 217 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: the people who don't believe it's real. And the reason 218 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: is because the people who are misattributing the science are 219 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: causing the people who don't believe it's it's real to 220 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: think that because it's all their predictions don't come true, 221 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: and the fear mongering falls on deaf ears. So what 222 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: I believe is that we are contributing that the global 223 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: temperature is slowly increasing due to our impact. It's never 224 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,959 Speaker 2: going to cause some big doomsday scenario, but that we 225 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 2: should be looking to do our best to rain in 226 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: pollution and reduce our emissions, but we should not do 227 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 2: it at the cost of our economy, our national security, 228 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: and our people. There needs to be a balance between 229 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: all those things, and I think that that is a 230 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 2: message that not only works with young people who care 231 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 2: a lot about this issue, but of course we want 232 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: an optimistic future. They don't want to believe that their 233 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 2: future is just gone. But it's also a message that 234 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: works for people who feel like they've been left behind 235 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: and that it's the fear mongering isn't going to work. 236 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 2: So that's a long way of saying I believe it's 237 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 2: real humans are contributing, but that we should be using 238 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: sensible steps to reduce a steady change that we're contributing to, 239 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: not some sort of drastic change it's going to kill. 240 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: Would your advice to the next administration be to command 241 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 1: with a clear, steady program of improvement or are there 242 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: specific things you would recommend. 243 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, I mean I think we all know that 244 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: the energy demand in this world is going up. It's 245 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: not going to change anytime soon, let alone in developing countries, 246 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 2: but even here in the United States, and we need 247 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 2: more energy. So my plan for the next administration that 248 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: I've been trying to work with the form of Trump administration, 249 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: but also even some folks in the Harris Waltz world, 250 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 2: because we need sensible leadership regardless of who wins, really 251 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: badly on this issue. We need more nuclear in this country. 252 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: That's just point blank We need a lot more nuclear 253 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: energy in this country. We need to produce more natural gas, 254 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: at least temporarily, because the world's demanding it. And we 255 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: create natural gas in America cleaner than anywhere else in 256 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: the world. It's sixty percent cleaner than coal, and of 257 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: course it's incredibly cost effective. And I think we need 258 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: to be producing more renewables in this country. The demand 259 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: for those are going up all around the world, and 260 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: China is dominating that marketplace super significantly, So that would 261 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: be kind of step one, more American energy on a 262 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 2: whole host of sources and getting government out of the way. 263 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: The second would be I think we need to spend 264 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: way more time supporting nature itself. And what I mean 265 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: by that is we need to restore ecosystems that we 266 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: love to use for public lands use or even private lands. 267 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 3: We need to manage our forests better. 268 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: We need to help equip farmers with more incentives and 269 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: efficiency standards to help them make more money but also 270 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 2: protect their land. At the same time, America is still 271 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: largely an open landscape of beautiful countryside, and those sorts 272 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: of places reduce carbon emissions. They suck up carbon emissions, 273 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: but they also provide us a place to live and 274 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: recreate and get the resources we need. And I think 275 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: providing more support for ecosystem protection for farmers who are 276 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: doing great, efficient work in this country to feed us 277 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: and feed our families and managing our forests. Those are 278 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: the sorts of sensible measures that I think we could take, 279 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 2: and they would not bankrupt our economy. 280 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 3: In fact, it would help it. 281 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: Where do you come down on things like the California 282 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: program to ban the sale of all gas powered vehicles? 283 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: But explain why so? 284 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: In the book, I delve into the fact that actually 285 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 2: California's push to mandate electric vehicles and solar panels and 286 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 2: wind turbines ends up hurting the environment more than it helps, 287 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: and it comes at obviously an enormous price tag. 288 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 3: I was touring a coal facility in. 289 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: Utah a couple of years ago, and it was right 290 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 2: around the time that Newsome basically banned nuclear, natural gas 291 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 2: and coal in his state, and they were shipping and 292 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: they still are eighty percent of their power to California 293 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 2: at night because the solar panels. 294 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: Weren't working and the wind turbines weren't blowing. 295 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: So you're actually importing fossil fuels from further away from 296 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 2: dirtier sources than you would have used originally. Also, you 297 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: can feel good about saying that you don't have it 298 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: in your state. That is the most backwards gas lighting 299 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: statement that in policy that a governor could make, and 300 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: I think governor knew some is the exact example of 301 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 2: what people should not do. The exact problem with this conversation. 302 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: The same thing is true on evs. You're forcing choices 303 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: or a lack thereof, down people's throats in the name 304 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: of the environment, without reliable energy for them to charge 305 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: that expensive choice that you're down their throats for them, 306 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 2: and you're getting those materials from China. You're getting those 307 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: materials from coal mining in Africa and in China with 308 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 2: slave labor to create the batteries and the materials. And 309 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 2: then you're also hooking up this immense power need to 310 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: the grid overnight that again is going to be met 311 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: with dirtier energy sources. 312 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 3: I believe that we need. 313 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: More fuel efficient internal combustion engine vehicles, more hybrids, and 314 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: more evs, all in combination with each other, and let 315 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,640 Speaker 2: people decide what they want to drive. Technology will take 316 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: care of the rest. And when you're rushing evs down 317 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: people's throats, you're only harming people, but you're also harming 318 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: the environment at a time when we don't have the 319 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,879 Speaker 2: capacity to mine or power these electric vehicles at the 320 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 2: capacity that they're trying to do. 321 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: How much do you think the more extreme ideas come 322 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: in part because the part of the mental movement has 323 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: been places like San Francisco. How much do you think 324 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: that geographic location and academic location have moved the environmental 325 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 1: solutions so they've become more and more big government and 326 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: less and less acceptable to the average American. 327 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: I think it's a huge reality. That is something I 328 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 2: talk a lot about in the book. And the reason 329 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: why I think I'm really poised well to talk about 330 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: it is that I grew up in Wisconsin. My high 331 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: school was across the street from a bunch of dairy farms. 332 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: I did wear cheese on my head every time I 333 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: went to a football game, but I actually had cheese 334 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 2: dairy farms across the street from where I grew up. 335 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: So I grew up around rural America, and I understand 336 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 2: the realities and the hardships that rural communities face, and 337 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: just the logistical differences, but I also lived in Seattle 338 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 2: for six years and went to college at the University 339 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: of Washington. Seattle, San Francisco, and New York they're kind 340 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: of in the same. In fact, I think Seattle might 341 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: be worse than New York in a lot of ways 342 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 2: in terms of and I saw the disdain for rural 343 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 2: America in Seattle, and it really frustrated me. Like when 344 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: I told people it's from Wisconsin, a lot of people 345 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 2: didn't even know where it was. They couldn't point it 346 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: out on a map, and they thought it was just 347 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: this flat, boring farmland state with nothing going on. And 348 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: they basically were like, I can't believe you even lived 349 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 2: there for eighteen years before coming here. I mean, that 350 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 2: offended me because I love Wisconsin and that's beautiful there, 351 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 2: and I'm really proud of where. 352 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 3: I grew up. 353 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 2: So I could see why this issue has transcended into 354 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: such a tribal issue, because it really isn't partisan as 355 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: much as it is urban versus rural. And you have 356 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 2: San Francisco, Seattle, and New York type people. I mean, 357 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 2: you think about the biggest leaders on this issue, it's 358 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 2: AOC and John Kerry and al gore. Where are these 359 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 2: people from or where do they live? 360 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 3: Now? 361 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: It's not in real America, It's in these cities. And 362 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 2: should those cities be represented in this dialogue, Yes, but 363 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 2: should they control the dialogue? 364 00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: No? 365 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 2: And our rece and our nature and all the things 366 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 2: that we're talking about when it comes to this issue 367 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 2: are not in the places that they live. And yet 368 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: they're making policies that are supposed to work for San 369 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 2: Francisco and rural Wisconsin, which is just not the same. 370 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 2: They have a complete misunderstanding of how most Americans are 371 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: living their lives. And I thought it was just a 372 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 2: talking point that people used it on the campaign trail 373 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: until I moved out to Seattle and saw it firsthand. 374 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: It's not and it really has infiltrated this issue. And 375 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's like they have some crazy agenda 376 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: to take over the world with their own strategy. I 377 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: think it's more they are so ignorant to the realities 378 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 2: that most people face that they can't get out of 379 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 2: their own way and making a sensible strategy. And that's 380 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: why Americans who don't subscribe to that need to lean 381 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: into this issue, not run away, because the lack of 382 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: voice from real Americans in the environmental dialogue has allowed 383 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 2: them to control the narrative. 384 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: In a sense, People who have thought of themselves as 385 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: the most sophisticated and urbane PhDs, et cetera, actually may 386 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: be more out of touch with reality than virtually everybody 387 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: else because they're totally unaware of their own. 388 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: Ignorance exactly, and they only know their own bubble, and 389 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: their bubble is actually very small. And it's sad because 390 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: we live in a world that could be as interwoven 391 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: and connected as we could dream of. Right, obviously, algorithms 392 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: kind of prevent that, but like we literally have everything 393 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: at our fingertips. 394 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 3: You could hypothetically. 395 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 2: Understand where people are coming from. You don't even need 396 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: to just watch a video or find something. You could 397 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: literally talk to somebody in these different areas. But they're 398 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 2: not even doing that. And like you know, I've been 399 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: to Midland, Texas and the oil fields. I've been to 400 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: coal plants in Utah. I've been to the solar and 401 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: wind facilities in Wyoming. Like every time I go to 402 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 2: one of these places. A dairy farm in Wisconsin that 403 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 2: produces food for a significant chunk of people, like no 404 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 2: environmental activist or leader has ever been to those places? 405 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: You know, my question for the aocs or the John 406 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: Carreyes of the world is if you are qualified to 407 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: make environmental decisions which happen to also make a difference 408 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: in people's energy choices and our national security and a 409 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 2: whole host of things. If you're going to make decisions 410 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: for their lives, how are you qualified to do that? 411 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 2: If you've never actually visited these communities. How are you 412 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: going to understand where they're coming from? If you have 413 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: zero idea where they're coming from? And are you actually 414 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: doing a bigger disservice to your own cause by putting 415 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: together policies that the vast majority of Americans can't implement, 416 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: let alone the rest of the world. And that's again 417 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: why the narrative needs to shift very quickly from one 418 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 2: of urban dominance to one of rural influence. And rural 419 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: America has the solutions on a lot of these things. 420 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: How do you find solutions? Me? What is your process 421 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: too reach out and find things that you think will work. 422 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 2: I will go anywhere and everywhere to see things on 423 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: the gun I find that seeing is believing for me. 424 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: And I visited almost every state in this country, probably 425 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 2: about five or six times at least each to understand 426 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 2: how to deal with these situations because they're different for 427 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 2: each geography. Right Like in Seattle, hydropower was awesome because 428 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 2: we had so much water, a little bit too much 429 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 2: water for me. It made me a little bit sad 430 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 2: to live there because it was raining all the time. 431 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: But there's tons of water. I live in Arizona. Now, 432 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 2: hydropower probably is not a great idea for Arizona. And 433 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: the same can be true on farming or transportation. I mean, 434 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: each geography and each population center and rural area, they 435 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: all have different realities. And so for me, it's traveling 436 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 2: the country, but it's also you know, not everyone is 437 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 2: able to do that, obviously, and I feel really grateful 438 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: that I've been able to see these things firsthand. But 439 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: I think for people on the left, it's thinking through, Okay, 440 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: here are the solutions that I've been presented. Who does 441 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: this help? Okay, who's left out? What sort of solutions 442 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 2: do those who are left out need? Because when you 443 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 2: reach the Green New Deal, there's nothing about farmers, there's 444 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: nothing about foresters, there's nothing about ranchers or anybody in 445 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,719 Speaker 2: rural America. So what I would ask liberals to do 446 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: is say, do some research on what you think is 447 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,960 Speaker 2: missing from those things. The same thing is true on 448 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 2: the right, like what are you missing from having your 449 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: voice at the dialogue? What could help your local farmer 450 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: become more efficient in their practices to make more money 451 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 2: for themselves but also protect the environment. What sorts of 452 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,800 Speaker 2: initiatives could help power a more reliable grid In northern Alabama, 453 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 2: there's an abandoned nuclear plant that never got opened. 454 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 3: It's almost open. Could we start that backup? 455 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: Let's think creatively around us about what's missing and get 456 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 2: out of our bubbles to get there. But you know, 457 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: I think there's different solutions everywhere, small, large, and in 458 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 2: the middle, and the free market and innovation and local 459 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 2: community know how is going to solve it, not the 460 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 2: federal government. And that's just the thing I've seen throughout 461 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: all my travels. 462 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: In your book, you note that we should start an 463 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: individual on local level. First. Do you have chapters that 464 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: are self organizing? 465 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: We do, and they're mostly young professionals in college students 466 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 2: because that's where we've targeted our outreach. But we have 467 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: those fifty four thousand members who are in local communities 468 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 2: across the country, and our chapters plant trees, they clean 469 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: up beaches, they tour different energy facilities in their communities. 470 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: They really are partaking in local action. And you know, 471 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 2: a lot of like environmental people will be like, oh, 472 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 2: that's so cute you do a cleanup, Like that doesn't 473 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: actually help the problem. And it's like people's local connection 474 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 2: to their environment is what drives them to be part 475 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: of this dialogue. Like, yes, everyone wants to save polar 476 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: bears or you know the gaps like in theory, but 477 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 2: that's not affecting their day to day lives. What's affecting 478 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: their day to day lives is the local environment around 479 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 2: them the connection to that, and our community chapters do 480 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 2: such a good job of this is what instills the desire. 481 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 2: And that's why I would love to see a world 482 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: where environmentalism is nonpartisan again and the urban rural divide 483 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: gets fixed. But the only way that's going to happen 484 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: is if we make the environment and environmentalism about the 485 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: environment again, about local communities, again, about people's love of 486 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: their local environment, because that's what people are proud of, 487 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: that's what people want to protect and that's what people 488 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,920 Speaker 2: know how to protect. A farmer in Wisconsin doesn't know 489 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: how to protect a forest in Washington, or vice versa. 490 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: But let's use their knowledge to do that. And that's 491 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: what our local communities, our chapters and local communities are doing. 492 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: From that standpoint, doesn't your approach to the environment almost 493 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: certainly require a lot more decentralization from Washington, a lot 494 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: more local flexibility and local common sense. 495 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:03,400 Speaker 3: It sure does. 496 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 2: And actually a perfect example of that is something that 497 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 2: I write about in the book, which is the government's 498 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: permitting and regulatory structure has made it impossible for people 499 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 2: to work. 500 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 3: On pro environmental projects. 501 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: Whether that's cleaning up a river system or fighting a 502 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: forest fire or building a clean energy facility, it's almost 503 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: impossible to do it because the government standing in the way. 504 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: There's always approvals and hoops, and it can take decades 505 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: to get things approved. I was just touring your uranium 506 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 2: mine in northern Arizona, where it took thirty five years 507 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: just to get through the permitting process to get this underway, 508 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 2: and all these legal fights and so on. So you know, 509 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: I think getting government out of the way in certain 510 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: areas is really smart. But I also think it really 511 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 2: means that the state and local governments need to do 512 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: more to collaborate with the leaders on the ground. And 513 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 2: there's a couple of states that I think have done 514 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,120 Speaker 2: a really good job of that. Georgia and Wyoming both 515 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: have Republican governors. Both are at the top of the 516 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: list in terms of investment coming into their state on 517 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,719 Speaker 2: clean energy, but they also are continuing to do fossil 518 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: fuel production. They have huge manufacturing, evy, nuclear, natural gas 519 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 2: facilities coming into their states, a very diverse group of 520 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: things going on, and it's because they're doing what works 521 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 2: for their state. They want economic growth, but they also 522 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: want environmental protection. A state can make better decisions on that, 523 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 2: or even better a county or city than the federal 524 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 2: government can, and if the government has to be involved, 525 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 2: the federal government should be the last resort. I'm not 526 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 2: saying that the federal government doesn't have a role. I 527 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: love the National Park system. I think our Department of 528 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: Energy does a lot of great work, and we have 529 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 2: a national security imperative to keep those things going. But 530 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 2: the local know how means decentralization in a lot of ways, 531 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: and that's something that environmentalists really struggle to grapple with 532 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: and something that I think they need to come to 533 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: an awareness of otherwise their very objectives are not really 534 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 2: easily met because it's just not possible. 535 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: One of the areas I noticed that you talk about 536 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: that I think is really underappreciated and deserves a lot 537 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: more attension is the whole question of geothermal energy. The 538 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 1: way you describe it, it could be one of the 539 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: really great sources of how we get breakout and having 540 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: enough electricity and having enough energy available. 541 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, geothermal is incredible, and I'm just learning a lot 542 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: about it, you know, over the last couple of years 543 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 2: for the first time, because it's one of those new things, 544 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: kind of like hydrogen or some of the other technologies 545 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 2: that are coming online right now worth looking into. And 546 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 2: the reason why geothermal is so fascinating is that it 547 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 2: uses the same process of oil and gas drilling, where 548 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: you're going into the earth with the same exact materials 549 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: and structure and logistical things, and you're not losing any jobs. 550 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: It's a one for one job transfer, but you're getting 551 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 2: a fuel and an energy source that is basically renewable 552 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 2: or zero emissions. And it's something we have basically untapped 553 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: potential to use, kind of like oil and gas. There's 554 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: been so much of it used over the last century, 555 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: and there's still more to come. There's that sort of 556 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: capacity on geothermal, and it's something that is incredibly safe, 557 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: and the only thing that really has held it back 558 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 2: from scaling even faster than it has over the last 559 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: couple of decades is that it is still somewhat expensive. 560 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: And that's where technology and innovation entrepreneurship are going to 561 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: come in. We've seen that it can power large scales 562 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 2: of people very reliably. It's doing that in Iceland and 563 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 2: in some other places around the world. It could do 564 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 2: the same thing here, and it's up to technology and 565 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: innovation to figure out whether or not we can get 566 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: those costs down. But it's one of those things where 567 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 2: it's really exciting. But if a couple of decades pass 568 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 2: and we've invested all this money into it and the 569 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: cost doesn't come down, then you know that's not worth pursuing. 570 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 2: You know, we need solutions that are cost effective and 571 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: environmentally sustainable. I do believe geothermal could be a big 572 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 2: part of that, and I think we're probably get there 573 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 2: with technology pretty soon. 574 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: Along that line. I've had a chance to visit Iceland 575 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: and look at their geothermal facilities, which are really pretty remarkable, 576 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: and I do think that's one of the areas that 577 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: probably we need to figure out how to have more 578 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: innovation and see whether or not we could have a 579 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: real breakthrough, because artificial intelligence is going to take so 580 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: much computational power that we're going to have a real 581 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: electricity problem in the next twenty to thirty years. 582 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 2: A really good example of this is if I went 583 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 2: on Twitter right now and said, Twitter, AI, make me 584 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: a picture of Newt Gingrich on the Time magazine cover 585 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: with a cheesehead on his head in twenty twenty four, 586 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: and it would generate some funky looking image of you 587 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 2: nut that would take ten times the amount of energy 588 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 2: as it does to search something on Google, and searching 589 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: with Google's AI tool, which often pops up when you 590 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 2: search on Google, also takes about ten times as much energy. 591 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: We have already surpassed with AI the amount of power 592 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 2: generation that our entire fleet of aviation uses for commercial aviation. 593 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 2: And it's just coming online right now. I mean, most 594 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 2: people don't even know how to use it yet, so 595 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: this is going to be a really really major concern, 596 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: not only with our growing energy demand without AI, with 597 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: EVS and just the growing population, but also with AI, 598 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 2: and so I think geothermal, nuclear, natural gas, these reliable 599 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 2: energy sources are critical to meeting that demand. 600 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: On the other hand, well, geothermal could be one of 601 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: the great breakthroughs. You're pretty skeptical about solar and wind 602 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: power as primary solutions to where we're going. 603 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've evolved a lot on this issue, 604 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 2: and from being climate skeptic to thinking that solar and 605 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: wind with this panacea, because that's kind of what I 606 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: was taught, and the reality is not that solar and 607 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: wind can power our grid. Technology improvements can help. We 608 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: can get battery storage figured out, or we could increase 609 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: the capacity for solar and wind. But you know, as 610 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: any common sense person knows, the sun isn't shining and 611 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: wind isn't blowing all the time, and it will always 612 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 2: be a secondary energy source. Now, I do think that 613 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: it is always going to be a strong secondary energy source. 614 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: We're recording this podcast. I'm in Arizona right now. It's 615 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 2: incredibly sunny. I know that the solar panels are working hard. 616 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: My parents have it on their roof here and they 617 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 2: can see the excess power that's generated. That's great, especially 618 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: rooftop solar. I think that we could use more of 619 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: that in sunny areas. But to pretend that it's going 620 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: to be this like one hundred percent energy source is 621 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 2: really just a complete lie. It's either ignorant or a lie. 622 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 2: And I fear that because so many people have oversimplified this, 623 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: that our policies have reflected that lie or ignorance. You 624 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 2: look at the mandates that are being set in different states. 625 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: You look at New York, which is basically shut down 626 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: every nuclear plant because they plan on going one hundred 627 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 2: percent wind in solar each seeing that in California too, 628 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 2: it's backfiring significantly and it's hurting people. I mean, they're 629 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 2: banning nuclear and natural gas, and it's raising people's energy prices, 630 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: and it's also raising emissions in the end. And I 631 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: think as sensible Americans, we can say, Okay, there are 632 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 2: benefits to wind and solar. We're not going to get 633 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 2: rid of them. We need to have them as part 634 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 2: of our energy portfolio. But we also can't have policies 635 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 2: that reflect a lie that it's going to be one 636 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 2: hundred percent of our energy source. 637 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: I want to thank you. I think what you're doing. 638 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: I hope you'll continue to go down this road, continue 639 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: to organize, and continue to write more books. But your 640 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 1: new book, The Conservative Environmentalist Common Sense Solutions for a 641 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 1: Sustainable Future is really a useful book for every conservative 642 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 1: to understand that we can in fact be more than 643 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: competitive with the left, offering better ideas and better solutions. 644 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: And your book is available on Amazon and then bookstows everywhere. 645 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: I also want to let our listeners know they can 646 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: find out more about your organization, American Conservation Coalition by 647 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: visiting your website at ACC dot eco. I really appreciate 648 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: Benji you're being part of this and helping educate us well. 649 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 2: Your leadership on this issue has been incredible and it's 650 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: just an honor to be able to get to know you. 651 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 2: Hopefully you can grow the friendship here, and I think 652 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 2: we've really got an obligation to the land that we 653 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 2: love and also to the country that we love to 654 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 2: have better leadership on this and having me on today 655 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 2: is a great example of what that can look like. 656 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your doing for this world, 657 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: what you've done for decades You've been inspiring me since 658 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 2: I got active in this space, and to share a 659 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,919 Speaker 2: podcast with you is definitely a dream come true. 660 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 3: So thanks for having me. 661 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Benji Becker. You can get 662 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book, The Conservative Monalists 663 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: on our show page at newtsworld dot com. New World 664 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive 665 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The 666 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 1: artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. Special 667 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: thanks to the team at Ginglish street sixty. If you've 668 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: been enjoying Newsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast 669 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: and both rate us with five stars and give us 670 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: a review so others can learn what it's all about. 671 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newsworld consign up for my three 672 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: freeweekly columns at ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 673 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.