Speaker 1: It's the Son of a Butcher podcast we come to
Speaker 1: every Wednesday. I'm your host, Claude Harmon. This week's guest
Speaker 1: probably not a household name for a lot of you,
Speaker 1: but one of my favorite golf writers, Joy Chakravarti. I've
Speaker 1: known Joy for a long time from my time in Dubai.
Speaker 1: I think he's one of the best writers around. I
Speaker 1: like his view. I've always liked his worldview on world golf,
Speaker 1: on the DP World Tour, on Asia, on what's going
Speaker 1: on all around the world. And I think he brings
Speaker 1: a unique perspective because he has seen golf kind of
Speaker 1: on a global scale. He's seen all of the tours
Speaker 1: around the world, a lot of these tours from the
Speaker 1: developing nations, and listen, the holy grail has always been
Speaker 1: to get to the PGA Tour. That's where you knew
Speaker 1: that if you were a great player, you were not
Speaker 1: only going to play against the best players in the world,
Speaker 1: but that was where the money was. And you know,
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about that. We talk a lot
Speaker 1: about all the different things going on. We talk about,
Speaker 1: you know, what's going on with the PGA Tour, what's
Speaker 1: going on with liv But I got to catch up
Speaker 1: with him in Mical last week. I was there for
Speaker 1: the International series, and you know, he has a unique
Speaker 1: perspective on how we grow the game on a global scale,
Speaker 1: and I think that's what I hope is going to
Speaker 1: happen in the future, is that we are going to
Speaker 1: see golf become more global. We're going to see the
Speaker 1: greatest players in the game playing around the world, and
Speaker 1: that the fans around the world will get to see
Speaker 1: the best players in the world. So wanted to get
Speaker 1: Joy on and get his perspective. Like I said, he's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite writers, and I think everyone's going
Speaker 1: to enjoy listening to him if you haven't heard from
Speaker 1: him before. He has some really good takes on what
Speaker 1: is going on in the game. So sit back and
Speaker 1: enjoy a really good interview. Joy. You and I have
Speaker 1: known each other a long time, and I certainly think
Speaker 1: you're one of the best golf journalists out there because
Speaker 1: you have such so much more of a worldview, and
Speaker 1: that's the reason why I kind of wanted to get
Speaker 1: you to come on and talk. You wrote a really
Speaker 1: interesting article last week about Obviously Live kind of pulling
Speaker 1: out of their bid to get world rankings, but you
Speaker 1: made an interesting argument that other tours should kind of
Speaker 1: follow suit, and maybe the world rankings in twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're dead, but it just doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like they are a very accurate way of looking
Speaker 1: at the tour or looking at the world of golf,
Speaker 1: unless you're specifically looking at the PGA Tour, because more
Speaker 1: and more it seems like it's almost they're the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour rankings as opposed to the world rankings.
Speaker 2: You know, Claude, first of all, thank you for having
Speaker 2: me with you on the podcast. I really, uh enjoy
Speaker 2: it a lot whatever you do, apart from doctoring the
Speaker 2: golf swing of so many people. But you know, Claude,
Speaker 2: before I start, I must say I've had a great
Speaker 2: appreciation for what you have done, and I think that
Speaker 2: has only grown in the last three weeks because I
Speaker 2: saw you doubling up in pain and sitting in the
Speaker 2: hotel room in Jeddah and you told me that you
Speaker 2: have to go through an MRI scan for your back,
Speaker 2: and yet you were there every day out on the
Speaker 2: course walking around. I'm in man, that takes I'm doing.
Speaker 1: It's part of it's for the job. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: saying that.
Speaker 2: But but but you, honestly, I mean that takes a
Speaker 2: lot of commitment and dedication, you know, to to your players,
Speaker 2: to all, and so I really honestly appreciate that.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that. But further to my point,
Speaker 1: you've been a part of global golf right and there
Speaker 1: are a lot of people listening that I think they
Speaker 1: are guilty at times that just seeing the PGA Tour
Speaker 1: and golf in America, and from a professional standpoint, as
Speaker 1: that is somewhat the end all be all, and part
Speaker 1: of I think what has made the fabric of professional
Speaker 1: golf over the last twenty five to thirty years. Who
Speaker 1: has been the wider world If you look at all
Speaker 1: of the great players that came out of the European
Speaker 1: Tour back in the day that started winning all of
Speaker 1: these majors, the fabric of professional golf is filled with
Speaker 1: players that just aren't from the US and play on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. But yet to a lot of people,
Speaker 1: it seems like everything in professional golf is at the
Speaker 1: moment revolving specific around the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2: So that's the thing. Claude and that's where the article
Speaker 2: came from. You know, the thing is that I can
Speaker 2: understand p Die too, being one of the biggest does
Speaker 2: in the world.
Speaker 1: Listen, the PGA Tour is the benchmark. They always have been.
Speaker 1: If you talk to anybody in the last thirty years,
Speaker 1: the goal has been if you're not playing in America,
Speaker 1: the goal was always top fifty because you knew if
Speaker 1: you got inside the top fifty in the official World
Speaker 1: of Golf rankings, you were going to get into all
Speaker 1: the majors. Then you were going to be eligible for
Speaker 1: the big invites. From the likes of Bayhill, from the
Speaker 1: likes of Memorial, from the likes of the old Honda,
Speaker 1: you could get in there.
Speaker 2: Yea.
Speaker 1: And it seems like right now, the way the world
Speaker 1: rankings are set up, the only way you can move
Speaker 1: up the world rankings right now is to basically play
Speaker 1: full time on the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that Ludwig Aberg I mean a fantastic talent, like
Speaker 1: an amazing, brilliant young talent. He's top ten in the world.
Speaker 1: He's never played in a major, he's only been a
Speaker 1: pro for less than a year, and he's won one
Speaker 1: golf tournament in the wrap around in at the RSM
Speaker 1: at the end of the year where there aren't the
Speaker 1: best players play. Now, that's not to take away from
Speaker 1: I think he is a future global superstar. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the kid is a stud, right. I think
Speaker 1: he has big time game. I think we are going
Speaker 1: to see his name for the next ten to fifteen years.
Speaker 1: I think we're going to see his name on leader
Speaker 1: boards on Sundays, on the back nine in major championships.
Speaker 1: That's how good of a player he is. But when
Speaker 1: you have guys that are major champions in the you
Speaker 1: know you got to go. I mean, Ludwig is higher
Speaker 1: rank than Brooks Keepka and Brooks has won four or
Speaker 1: five tournaments in the last two years. One of them
Speaker 1: is a major championship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Ludwig is a great example of what the
Speaker 2: world golf has to offer. You know, if he's doing
Speaker 2: so well and vowing the fans on the pediatur, let's
Speaker 2: not forget his roots. He's not from the US and
Speaker 2: there are so many other players like Tom Kim. Tom Kim, I.
Speaker 1: Had Chouman sat on my podcast a couple of years
Speaker 1: ago and we were talking about the rise of Tom
Speaker 1: and what a great story, right, I mean, he is
Speaker 1: such a talent, He's got a smile that's incredibly infected.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I love being around him. But
Speaker 1: we won't see his story happen again. We won't see
Speaker 1: a kid be able to come from where he came from,
Speaker 1: go to the Asian Tour, play some Korean PGA stuff,
Speaker 1: then get to the DP World and then somehow managed
Speaker 1: to get to the If you're.
Speaker 2: Not that's not happening.
Speaker 1: That's not happening anymore. And that's what I don't think
Speaker 1: a lot of people realize is stories like Tom Kim.
Speaker 1: I think Tom's been one of the great stories in
Speaker 1: the last two or three years. Yeah, but that won't
Speaker 1: happen again. You won't see a player come from where
Speaker 1: he came from and rise the way he has risen.
Speaker 1: Just won't see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so uh, Claude, just just from from where I
Speaker 2: come from India. I mean, if I have to give
Speaker 2: you an example, look at Jeeve Milka saying, you know,
Speaker 2: when he won all those events in Asia on the
Speaker 2: DP World Tour or European Tour as it used to be,
Speaker 2: he got into the top fifty of the rankings and
Speaker 2: he went into the majors, and there was so much
Speaker 2: buzz about golf in the country. I remember in two
Speaker 2: thousand and six to two thousand and eight there were
Speaker 2: you know, performances of Jief which would upstage cricket from
Speaker 2: the back page of the newspaper, which which is a
Speaker 2: huge thing in India. And you know, I mean there
Speaker 2: are so many stories like Jeef floating around. And look
Speaker 2: at that young kid den with Boribun sub of Thailand
Speaker 2: winning three tournaments just nineteen years of age. He is
Speaker 2: another dunkin and the making. But really get to the
Speaker 2: pdiador now, really get to the majors. I have serious
Speaker 2: doubts because even if he wins five tournaments this year,
Speaker 2: he will not get into the top fifty. The way
Speaker 2: the world rankings are functioning right now.
Speaker 1: Why do you think there has been a reluction of
Speaker 1: reluctance from the governing bodies in the world rankings. With
Speaker 1: the world rankings, because you've got the one side, You've
Speaker 1: got the people saying listen, the people that signed up
Speaker 1: that went to live, they knew what they were getting into.
Speaker 1: They knew they weren't going to get any world ranking points.
Speaker 1: They only play fifty four holes. There's no cuts. For
Speaker 1: all the reasons why everyone is against the World Rankings
Speaker 1: making a change, but the charter of the World Rankings
Speaker 1: is to rank the best players in the world. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: And I think there is an argument on the other side.
Speaker 1: Everybody says, listen, the guys that went to Live they
Speaker 1: knew they weren't going to get World Rankings, so they
Speaker 1: can't complain in the took the money. But I also
Speaker 1: think there is another argument to where it's the official
Speaker 1: World Golf Rankings job and in their charter to rank
Speaker 1: the best players. And what I can't figure out, Joys,
Speaker 1: We've got this, We've got this unbelievable talent. Ludwig Augberg, right,
Speaker 1: gets on the PGA Tour, gets on the Ryder Cup,
Speaker 1: has his breakout. Right, he came out of a system,
Speaker 1: the college system, right, which is fifty four holes. There's
Speaker 1: no cut. The coach basically picks the team every week.
Speaker 1: You can't call John Fields at the University of Texas
Speaker 1: or Conray Conrad Ray at Stanford and say, listen, I'm
Speaker 1: a junior golfer. I want to qualify for the Stanford
Speaker 1: golf team. He would say, well, no, we would have
Speaker 1: to recruit you to come play for Stanford, and then
Speaker 1: if you're really one of the best players amateurs in
Speaker 1: the world, they basically give you a four year full
Speaker 1: scholarship and pay for your entire education. So by the
Speaker 1: time you get done going to Stanford for four years,
Speaker 1: that's upwards of over two hundred to three hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars they're paying you to go there. So somehow, some way,
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour figured out a way to have someone
Speaker 1: that is basically only playing fifty four holes events with
Speaker 1: no cut they're limited fields. The coach kind of picks
Speaker 1: the team. There's no pathway on or off. Somehow we
Speaker 1: figured out a way to make sure that the best
Speaker 1: person to come out of the US college system get safe.
Speaker 1: And every week on the US college system there's an
Speaker 1: individual winner. Yeah, there's a team winner every single week.
Speaker 1: So they figured out a way to make sure the
Speaker 1: best players coming out of that system could get immediately
Speaker 1: onto the PGA too. Somehow they figured that out. But
Speaker 1: nobody can figure out a way to get lib guys
Speaker 1: or change the world rankings to reflect where the game
Speaker 1: is today. And I thought John Rahm's comments last week,
Speaker 1: and I was blown away by Billy Horschel's comments this
Speaker 1: week about the eye test that you can tell who
Speaker 1: the best players in the world are. So if you
Speaker 1: have guys like Billy Horschel saying you can tell who
Speaker 1: the best players in the world are, and maybe the
Speaker 1: Players Championship should start letting in players that they're not
Speaker 1: letting in. You've got John rom saying, listen, everybody knows
Speaker 1: who the best players in the world are. Is it
Speaker 1: an incumbent upon the official World Golf ranks and say, okay,
Speaker 1: it's our job to rank the best players in the
Speaker 1: world in the game of golf, or is it just
Speaker 1: our job to rank the best players that are going
Speaker 1: to be playing on the biggest tour, on the PGA Tour,
Speaker 1: And listen, the PGA Tour is the show. Nobody's arguing that, right,
Speaker 1: that is everybody's goal. That has always been everyone's goal.
Speaker 1: But everything in life changes, and you still remember that
Speaker 1: in the eighties, the official World Golf Rankings were set
Speaker 1: up by a management company basically, and once Nick Faldo,
Speaker 1: Sandy Lyle, Ian Woosnam, Bernhard, once these players started winning
Speaker 1: majors and started being global superstars, they had to come
Speaker 1: up with a way to try and incorporate all of
Speaker 1: this should that be happening now, regardless of what side
Speaker 1: you're on. And this is the other thing joy that
Speaker 1: don't I don't get why do you have to choose?
Speaker 1: I think jame Onahan the one thing that and I
Speaker 1: would say this to him if I saw him, that
Speaker 1: I think he's guilty of. Is he was the one
Speaker 1: that saying no, no, you have to choose between the PGA
Speaker 1: to or or live or everything else. You have to
Speaker 1: make a stance and choose. Why do you have to
Speaker 1: choose that? I mean, you don't have to choose. You
Speaker 1: will watch golf. And I've been saying this. There's golf
Speaker 1: in Asia, there's golf in Europe, there's golf, and all
Speaker 1: over the world. Now you can choose to watch golf
Speaker 1: wherever you want to watch it at.
Speaker 2: You know what the argument about the w U, the
Speaker 2: charter with which they set up the world ranking system,
Speaker 2: I think if you just look at that and the
Speaker 2: way things are moving right now, you actually have a
Speaker 2: case of saying that something which is equally important to golf,
Speaker 2: which is the World Amateur Golf ranking is actually based
Speaker 2: on UH is not valid. You know, I mean, if
Speaker 2: you just if you just look at what the wo
Speaker 2: WGR is saying. As as you rightly pointed out, these
Speaker 2: are based mostly on team events which have got an
Speaker 2: individual you know, title to be one, and the World
Speaker 2: Amateur Golf Ranking is the benchmark for the best amateurs
Speaker 2: in the world from where.
Speaker 1: If you want to play college golf, the Official World
Speaker 1: Golf Rankings for juniors and amateurs is a way that
Speaker 1: college golf coaches are going to differentiate. You rank you
Speaker 1: figure out which ones you're going to come so everybody
Speaker 1: wagger is is the way they do that. But that
Speaker 1: is closely aligned with the way that the Official World
Speaker 1: Golf Rankings are. I guess the obvious question, Joy is
Speaker 1: is there a solution? And if there is, what do
Speaker 1: you feel like is a real equitable solution, Because as
Speaker 1: soon as there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room,
Speaker 1: you're either PGA Tour or you think there's a place
Speaker 1: for lift. And I just don't get why it has
Speaker 1: to be like that.
Speaker 2: See, I can't understand why lif can't be given the
Speaker 2: ranking points. Are you trying to say that the fifty
Speaker 2: four players who are among the best in the world
Speaker 2: are cheats? That they are going to you know, take
Speaker 2: take into consideration things like, oh, my team has to win,
Speaker 2: so maybe I should he's going to win the title.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to make up, but these things are
Speaker 2: not happening. And you have been around all these tournaments.
Speaker 2: I've been to about fifteen tournaments in the last three
Speaker 2: I see each and every player fighting for that individual
Speaker 2: title as well and the great joy that the team
Speaker 2: championship brings at the end of it. Either you are
Speaker 2: saying that these fifty four guys are liars, they don't
Speaker 2: have the integrity, which is not correct at all. And
Speaker 2: you know, so the way forward I think Claude is
Speaker 2: that Live should be given ranking points as my belief,
Speaker 2: whether it is seventy five percon because they play a
Speaker 2: three day tournament of the actual field rating size. That's
Speaker 2: that's one way to go forward. Live has proved that
Speaker 2: it is. It is financially stable, it has been going
Speaker 2: on for two and a half years now. It has
Speaker 2: it has got it has done everything that a golf
Speaker 2: tour needs to do. It has a promotions event, it
Speaker 2: has got telecast. I know how a smaller tour applies
Speaker 2: for you know, owg are recognition, and some of the
Speaker 2: things that the wou WGR looks at is are they
Speaker 2: financially stable? Are they doing enough? You know, is there
Speaker 2: a Q school. I was part of Miner Tour when
Speaker 2: it had applied for you know, the World Golf ranking,
Speaker 2: And these were some of the things that were asked
Speaker 2: by the WOULD back in the.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: And so why why should those criterias changed? You know?
Speaker 2: So I think would lift should be given a ranking facility.
Speaker 2: Whether it is from retrospective effect or not, that's that's
Speaker 2: another matter altogether. That's up for argument with them. I
Speaker 2: think they should be given with the retrospective effect, but
Speaker 2: also their needs. They've given this bonus points to the
Speaker 2: to the multiple winners of different tours, if they win
Speaker 2: multi you know, three or four tournaments in a year.
Speaker 2: I think it should be including the top five players,
Speaker 2: not to that extent that you know, you give for
Speaker 2: points more, but the fifth place player should be given
Speaker 2: a little bit more extra point because at the moment
Speaker 2: it is like zero point zero seven three points for
Speaker 2: somebody who went, say comes forth on an Indian pediator event.
Speaker 2: What difference does it make? Don't give them the points?
Speaker 2: And that is the reason why because if any of
Speaker 2: these smaller tour players they have any aspirations to go
Speaker 2: and play on a bigger tour or to go to
Speaker 2: the pediator, to go to the majors, owdr is the
Speaker 2: only way out right now.
Speaker 1: A lot of the players that went to Live you know,
Speaker 1: are coming from the PGA Tour system, right and so
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people look and they say,
Speaker 1: you know, money, money, money, money, but you live, You're
Speaker 1: from India, you have championed and reported on all of
Speaker 1: the various tours around the world. The only way any
Speaker 1: of those new entity survive is money. The only way
Speaker 1: that golf grows. We're here in Macau this week. The
Speaker 1: only way golf grows in Asia is money. That's why
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour wanted to partner and did the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour China to try and the influx of money through
Speaker 1: the International Series and through the Asian Tours partnership would live.
Speaker 1: They have gotten an influx of of money to help
Speaker 1: try and promote the game in regions that are very,
Speaker 1: very different than Piga. You know, this tournament this week
Speaker 1: in Macau, I wish some of the guys from you know,
Speaker 1: no laying up and the barstool guys that are so
Speaker 1: so pro PGA Tour and anti lip I wish they
Speaker 1: would come to tournaments like this and see that this
Speaker 1: is where golf is growing, right, I mean, how many
Speaker 1: different nationalities do you think are playing this week here
Speaker 1: in Macau? It's got to be thirty eight thirty eight different.
Speaker 1: And so when everybody talks about growing the game, we're
Speaker 1: not going to grow the game at Memorial. We're not
Speaker 1: going to grow the game at Riviera. The game gets
Speaker 1: grown by giving players from thirty eight different nationalities and
Speaker 1: opportunity to play. And you know, I mean, what's first
Speaker 1: prize here this week? Less than four hundred thousand? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, you finish top ten this week and you
Speaker 1: finish tied, You're you're not taking home a lot of money.
Speaker 1: There's no free dry cleaning and courtesy cars like there
Speaker 1: are here. And the reason why the PGA Tour is
Speaker 1: the juggernaut that it is is money. Yeah, is the
Speaker 1: investment from the sponsors. That's That's what I don't get
Speaker 1: about this whole argument where everybody's talking about money this
Speaker 1: and money that. I mean, Joey, you and I have
Speaker 1: known and it's funny since the advent of Live. For
Speaker 1: those of us that have been around international golf in
Speaker 1: europeon were like, you guys, do realize the dirty secret?
Speaker 1: The European is based European Tour for years and Asia
Speaker 1: was basically where you went if you were a major
Speaker 1: champion to cash out, you went to the Middle East.
Speaker 1: You went to Asia because you know they would pay
Speaker 1: you massive appearance fees. I remember that year Jordan Speith
Speaker 1: had that breakout year. Where do you go, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden he's playing in Singapore, then the following week
Speaker 1: he's playing in Abadhabi. Is he doing that out of
Speaker 1: the goodness of his oh's heart? Hell no, He's doing
Speaker 1: that because they paid And I know you don't have
Speaker 1: a problem with that. I don't have a problem with that.
Speaker 1: When Justin Thomas won a major, where was he Abadabi?
Speaker 1: Why because they paid him? And I think as a
Speaker 1: professional golfer and a professional athlete, if you're one of
Speaker 1: the best players in the world, if you're winning majors,
Speaker 1: that is the perk. I mean, yes, the tournament in Germany. Porsche,
Speaker 1: why are they getting American players to come there? Because
Speaker 1: they're letting them design their own Porsches and ship them
Speaker 1: back to the United States. They're not going over there
Speaker 1: for any other reason. They're not going because they want
Speaker 1: to play golf in Germany the week after the US Open.
Speaker 1: They're going because a corporation gets a jet flies it
Speaker 1: to wherever they're playing at the US Open. And then
Speaker 1: all the guys that are going to go play this
Speaker 1: tournament in Europe and they're all getting paid to go there,
Speaker 1: they all get on the corporate jet. Now, you and
Speaker 1: I have watched how long has been going on? Twenty years,
Speaker 1: twenty five years.
Speaker 2: More than that. More than that, I think Sevy was
Speaker 2: the first one who really demanded that. See, the thing is,
Speaker 2: if you're good at something, you need to be paid.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I am a good writer, and if
Speaker 2: you ask me to just do it for free, is
Speaker 2: it proper? Is that fair? It is not. I've worked
Speaker 2: hard for my craft and these players have bugged their
Speaker 2: asses off.
Speaker 1: Rory McElroy deserves every single dollar he makes on the
Speaker 1: golf course and every sing year old dollar he makes
Speaker 1: off the golf course. Scotty Scheffler is on a run
Speaker 1: like we have not seen. However much money he makes
Speaker 1: for the tournaments he wins, he deserves it because he's
Speaker 1: such a great player, and Joey, you and I both
Speaker 1: know as well, you play well. Money is a big
Speaker 1: part of that, and you know more than anybody coming
Speaker 1: from not a big golf nation, the holy grail is
Speaker 1: to get to the United States so you can make
Speaker 1: a living, so you can make real money money. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you look at the guys that have gone over,
Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of players that once
Speaker 1: they got to the US and played in the US,
Speaker 1: the financial rewards of playing in the US were just
Speaker 1: so much greater than they were from any of the
Speaker 1: other places that you could possibly And that's also why
Speaker 1: a large majority of the international players, once they make
Speaker 1: it on the PGA Tour, where do they all move
Speaker 1: to move to the US. Yeah, that's where they moved
Speaker 1: because exactly, and we've always known, that's where the money is.
Speaker 1: If you want to be a superstar in global golf,
Speaker 1: the money is making it to the PGA tourah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the trophies in the legacy are good, absolutely, but the
Speaker 1: real reason why people are going there is because the
Speaker 1: purses are more.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, if you are not rewarded that way, why would you.
Speaker 2: I mean I was I was having an interesting conversation
Speaker 2: with Unyo about a couple of years ago eu Henya
Speaker 2: Chakara and and there was one comment that really stood
Speaker 2: out for me. He said that when he was offered
Speaker 2: the live to play on Live, and he told his
Speaker 2: dad and he said that if I had told my
Speaker 2: dad that I'm not going to go to Live, my
Speaker 2: dad would have slapped me then and there and.
Speaker 1: Said, you're crazy enough to take this financial opportunity.
Speaker 2: And it has opened so much, so many doors for
Speaker 2: the college players. I mean everything that the PDIA Tour
Speaker 2: is now doing.
Speaker 1: It pore you is a reaction.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's after that.
Speaker 1: And Joey, you've also known, like all of us involved
Speaker 1: in professional golf, the Eye Test PG Tour you should
Speaker 1: have happened fifteen years ago. The players were good enough.
Speaker 1: Fifteen years ago we were seeing these players come through
Speaker 1: with no fear. And it wasn't until and so all
Speaker 1: of the negative stuff that I hear a lot of
Speaker 1: people talk about with regards to live coming into professional golf,
Speaker 1: one of the positive things is it forced the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour to look at the universities and go, we have
Speaker 1: to find a way to get give these great players
Speaker 1: a pathway directly to the PGA.
Speaker 2: I think that's that's one of the best things to
Speaker 2: come out of it. Otherwise you had to be like
Speaker 2: massively talented and to get into the pediator the very
Speaker 2: next year. If somebody like you Heno, who's such an
Speaker 2: amazing talent, or David Pute, if they had to wait
Speaker 2: a couple of years just to try to get into
Speaker 2: a good door, how bad that would be for world golf.
Speaker 2: You know that somebody like that has to has to
Speaker 2: just struggle.
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting. You know, we we like
Speaker 1: in golf this story of struggle. You know, we love
Speaker 1: hearing stories that. You know this Jake Napkin, he was
Speaker 1: a bouncer two years ago. We had to go get
Speaker 1: a job as a bouncer because he couldn't continue to
Speaker 1: afford to try and play competitive professional golf. We don't
Speaker 1: hear that story in any other professional sport. We don't
Speaker 1: like in America, there's nobody playing in the NFL who's
Speaker 1: also an uber driver, who's got a second job.
Speaker 2: You have Barry Henson, but.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, there is nobody currently playing
Speaker 1: in the English Premiership. There are no Formula one drivers
Speaker 1: there's no one playing on the England national cricket team,
Speaker 1: there's no one playing on the on the on the
Speaker 1: All Blacks, the New Zealand rugby team, that has another job.
Speaker 1: They are paid professional athletes. But in golf there is
Speaker 1: this want for struggle. We want to see guys struggle,
Speaker 1: and I just don't get where that comes from, because
Speaker 1: there's no other walk of life other than professional tennis.
Speaker 1: I think is the only thing that's similar. But why
Speaker 1: do you think it is that we want golfers to
Speaker 1: struggle so much.
Speaker 2: One part of it is probably inspiration and motivation. Everyone
Speaker 2: looks for a story where you know, you can tell that, okay,
Speaker 2: he was he was son of a greenskeeper and he
Speaker 2: has become what he is now. I mean, it's always
Speaker 2: a great story. So that is definitely a part of it.
Speaker 2: But I mean you're right in the sense that we
Speaker 2: don't talk.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: I mean, like, if I take the example of cricket,
Speaker 2: I mean there are there are obviously, you know, players
Speaker 2: like for example, one of our players who did really
Speaker 2: well against England and the ongoing Test series, he comes
Speaker 2: from a very poor family. He stayed on the streets
Speaker 2: in Mumbai. Those are all very inspirational stories. But will
Speaker 2: we be talking in the same breath and the same
Speaker 2: stories about ten years from now when he's an established
Speaker 2: member of the team. I don't think so. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's also this big thing with the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour that there's this narrative that all the people
Speaker 1: that left the PGA Tour for live. Everybody says, how
Speaker 1: could you possibly turn your back on the platform that
Speaker 1: gave you all of these things? Yet nobody has any
Speaker 1: problem with Basically, over the last twenty five years, the
Speaker 1: majority of the European Ryder Cup team, where do they
Speaker 1: all live? They live in the US. Where do they
Speaker 1: all play their golf? They play? Think about the tournaments
Speaker 1: that the guys that support Europe go back for. They
Speaker 1: go back for co sanctions events. Now they're not. John
Speaker 1: Ram's the only one. John Ram is the only guy.
Speaker 1: I mean, Roy McElroy didn't even play the Irish Open, right, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: He moved to America and basically played almost the majority
Speaker 1: of golf. Listen. I don't have a problem with that.
Speaker 1: I don't have any problem with that. But this thing
Speaker 1: that all the guys that left the PGA Tour and
Speaker 1: went to library goes, how could you turn your back
Speaker 1: on the tour and the platform that gave your start.
Speaker 1: Luke Donald lives in America. I don't. I mean he
Speaker 1: he left Europe so fast, like everybody left. I don't
Speaker 1: have any problem with that, because the PGA Tour was
Speaker 1: the only thing in town. It was the show, right.
Speaker 1: I asked Victor Hovland this year, how many real European
Speaker 1: tour events will you play in twenty twenty four? Not Wentworth,
Speaker 1: not not Scotland, not the Clue, any of the real European.
Speaker 2: He said, maybe.
Speaker 1: And if you look now, you can win DP World.
Speaker 1: Now you win the race for Dubai and play all
Speaker 1: the majors, play the big events, play one of the
Speaker 1: big events in the Middle East, and then play the
Speaker 1: co sanctioned PGA Tour events was and never really play
Speaker 1: any European Tour events and win the Order of Merit.
Speaker 1: We see that every year every year.
Speaker 2: I mean, there are so many tournaments on the dp
Speaker 2: WILL Tour, which the field you would really want it
Speaker 2: to be better. I mean some of the sponsors, because
Speaker 2: most of the stars they just go out to and
Speaker 2: I mean Ryan Fox, Minwooli. These guys have got an opportunity,
Speaker 2: they will go and play over there. They they were
Speaker 2: the big stars of last year. And talking about platform,
Speaker 2: one thing that I'm very clear of God is that
Speaker 2: the are not the platform that you know makes up
Speaker 2: the player. I for me, the platform is mom, dad,
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters. If they don't give you that kind
Speaker 2: of support growing up, if they don't financially support you
Speaker 2: those when the player becomes a player, it's only that
Speaker 2: family and the and the near by relatives or the
Speaker 2: first coach who has done all the hard work, that
Speaker 2: is the platform. If the if the pediator says that
Speaker 2: you're showing us your back now that we have established you,
Speaker 2: that's wrong because they are not the ones. The coaches,
Speaker 2: the early coaches, and the parents, I think they are
Speaker 2: the platform. And if by coming to live or going
Speaker 2: to the pediator you can make them happier and financially
Speaker 2: well off, why not.
Speaker 1: It seems to me like anybody that will have to
Speaker 1: PJ Tour is turning their back on this platform that
Speaker 1: gave them their start, and they should be loyal to that.
Speaker 1: But I haven't seen anybody really be one hundred percent
Speaker 1: loyal to the Asian Tour or the DP World Tour
Speaker 1: once they had I mean, I talked to Matthew Pavaughan.
Speaker 1: I said, Matthew, Matthew one of the guys, one of
Speaker 1: the ten guys now that got a full PGA Tour
Speaker 1: card on the PGA Tour this year. He played in
Speaker 1: Europe his whole career. He won Tory Pines this year.
Speaker 1: I asked Matthew the same thing, how many real European
Speaker 1: Tour events will you play this year? And he said none,
Speaker 1: He's going to focus on the PGA Tour. But nobody
Speaker 1: looks at Matthew, but one it says, how could you
Speaker 1: turn your back on the platform that the year everything
Speaker 1: the European Tour did for you. And here's the other thing.
Speaker 1: All we've listened to for the last three years is
Speaker 1: talk about money, money, money, and everybody say it, it's
Speaker 1: not about money. It's not about money. It's about trophies,
Speaker 1: it's about legacy, it's not about money. But the European
Speaker 1: Tour is no longer the un European Tour. The European
Speaker 1: Tour is known as the DP World Tour. They have
Speaker 1: a corporate sponsor. But it's not about money. But the
Speaker 1: European Tour is no longer the European Tour, It's the
Speaker 1: DP World Tour because they had to go find a
Speaker 1: sponsor before the PGA Tour came to bail them out.
Speaker 1: This special relationship, in this agreement between DP World and
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. Now the ten best players every year
Speaker 1: are going straight from Europe to the PGA Tour. But
Speaker 1: yet there's a big people get Certain people get really
Speaker 1: upset if you say, well, basically the European Tour has
Speaker 1: just become a feeder tour to the PGA Tour. But
Speaker 1: doesn't it seem like that is what's happening.
Speaker 2: It is and you know it has. It has happened.
Speaker 2: Whenever play gets better, I mean like Nick Faldo got
Speaker 2: rent to the PDIA to marry McIlroy went to the Pediator.
Speaker 2: You always tend to gravitate where you think your best
Speaker 2: life is, your best competition is. You always go towards that.
Speaker 2: What is happening right now is that the only problem
Speaker 2: I have. The pathways are good. I mean, ten cards
Speaker 2: is an amazing thing for a deep world toe play.
Speaker 2: If if somebody like my country made Chubhanker gets a
Speaker 2: card to the Pediator, I'll be delighted for him. He'll
Speaker 2: be delighted for himself and his family, you know. But
Speaker 2: the thing is that they still have to figure out
Speaker 2: a way how to make apart from the few Rolics
Speaker 2: Series events, how to make the other tournaments more stronger
Speaker 2: on the DP world. Yes, and otherwise. I mean, for example,
Speaker 2: last year we had the Abuda BHSV Say Golf Championship
Speaker 2: and there were only two players in the top fifty
Speaker 2: who were playing that week, Shane Lowry and Tommy Fleetwood
Speaker 2: or top thirty, I would say, and that was to
Speaker 2: make it Jane so much so that you know, the
Speaker 2: tournament is now towards the back end of the season. Yep.
Speaker 1: So well, the running joke at any time you went
Speaker 1: to Dubai, anytime you went to Abu Dhabi, anytime you
Speaker 1: went to Guitar, the running joke was the five to
Speaker 1: six pay players that were paid to go there were
Speaker 1: getting paid more than the prize fund. If you look
Speaker 1: at it, if you look at Abudabi and Dubai over
Speaker 1: the last twenty years, and you look at the prize fund,
Speaker 1: but you look at the superstars, the global superstars that
Speaker 1: played one over there from the PGA Tour. Anybody that
Speaker 1: thinks they're going over there to win three hundred grand
Speaker 1: fly fifteen hours just out of the goodness of their
Speaker 1: own heart. They're all going over there because they're getting paid.
Speaker 1: And then the other dirty little secret that nobody talks
Speaker 1: about is if you were a young player beforehand, before
Speaker 1: PGA Tour, you you signed with a management company, and
Speaker 1: one of the reasons you signed with that management company
Speaker 1: is they say, listen, and we've got big stars that
Speaker 1: are gonna be playing. We can use our influence to
Speaker 1: get you in. So the bigger players they've got, they
Speaker 1: can use those. So this idea that everybody just gets
Speaker 1: it everywhere off of hard work and all of this stuff,
Speaker 1: I think live coming onto the scene is kind of
Speaker 1: somewhat pulled the curtain back a little bit of how
Speaker 1: the sausage is made. But we all kind of know
Speaker 1: how the sausage has been made, and it's not necessarily
Speaker 1: sometimes the prettiest business. I mean, you've seen it as
Speaker 1: someone that has traveled all over the world. You travel
Speaker 1: to regular PGA Tour events, you travel to majors, you
Speaker 1: travel to a number of tournaments the tours. The average
Speaker 1: golf fan I don't think wants maybe sometimes to know
Speaker 1: how all of this is run.
Speaker 2: Well, that's true. See, it is always to get a
Speaker 2: superstar to a tournament. I mean, one incident that I
Speaker 2: will never forget is when Tiger went to the Middle
Speaker 2: East for the first time and played the Dubad as
Speaker 2: a classic and he had that iconic photo shoot over
Speaker 2: over burgell Arab. You know, he was paid tons of
Speaker 2: money for that. But the kind of return on investment
Speaker 2: that he gave that week with those pictures on the
Speaker 2: on the front page of New York Times, on the
Speaker 2: front page of Washington Post. I mean, the money being
Speaker 2: paid making sense is what has to be the benchmark
Speaker 2: for every investment of yours, many of these players. When
Speaker 2: Phil went to the Abu Dhabi for the first time,
Speaker 2: I mean there were reams and reams of papers dedicated
Speaker 2: to Phil and and how how he is, you know,
Speaker 2: the magician, magician with the short game and things like that.
Speaker 2: There was so many articles in the at least about
Speaker 2: him and other parts of the world as well. It
Speaker 2: makes sense. But yes, money is the driving factor.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, J Monahan. It would seem came out of hiding
Speaker 1: this week. Have you been surprised, Joy with everything that's
Speaker 1: going on in professional golf currently that I think this
Speaker 1: is what the third time we've seen Jay in front
Speaker 1: of a microphone since the US opened, since he was
Speaker 1: in front of a microphone with Yaser from the PIF.
Speaker 1: Are you surprised, given where global golf is, where professional
Speaker 1: golf is, that we haven't seen Jay more often.
Speaker 2: As the head of the Pedator, And given that the
Speaker 2: most talked about thing right now is the Pediator and
Speaker 2: the PIF investment into it, and the fact that everyone
Speaker 2: who is interested in golf and interested in the PIA
Speaker 2: Pedator and live golf wants to know where this when
Speaker 2: this merger the merger is not the right word, but
Speaker 2: when this investment is going to happen, and things like that.
Speaker 2: He needs to be and and since he started the
Speaker 2: initiated the entire thing and the June six U talks
Speaker 2: that we had, he should be more in the forefront.
Speaker 2: And I'm surprised many of the players actually don't know
Speaker 2: what's going on.
Speaker 1: I continue to be surprised that when we do now,
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, we see at home, we see I
Speaker 1: live in Jupiter, Florida. We see players all the time right.
Speaker 1: Over the last three years, I have been shocked at
Speaker 1: how little everybody that's on the PGA tour knows about
Speaker 1: what's going on. I've just been shocked. I mean you
Speaker 1: ask some qulture like, I don't know. I mean I
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, and I think, I mean Jay didn't.
Speaker 1: He didn't really say much this week. Now there is
Speaker 1: an argument to be made. I mean, they say the
Speaker 1: sheer art of diplomacy is to basically speak and say nothing.
Speaker 1: That's half the art of diplomacy. And I think Jay's
Speaker 1: doing a great job at that. If you were on
Speaker 1: the PGA tour, would he have your confidence? Would he
Speaker 1: be someone that you think, Okay, if I look at
Speaker 1: what happened over the last three years, is he the
Speaker 1: guy to lead us out of this? Are you surprised?
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of people surprised that
Speaker 1: that he still has a job given the way everything
Speaker 1: was going. Are you surprised that he still has the
Speaker 1: confidence of the players, And are you surprised that he's
Speaker 1: still in the role that he's in, because listen, this
Speaker 1: is not COVID Live. I mean, Jay is He's had
Speaker 1: it pretty tough. I mean, it has been a tough go.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That is also why he makes over ten million dollars
Speaker 1: a year and flies everywhere on a private jet. Because
Speaker 1: if you're making one hundred brand a year, you don't.
Speaker 2: Have to have decases round. So when you have to make.
Speaker 1: Big decisions like Jay has to make, like a fortune
Speaker 1: five hundred CEO of a massive company. Yeah, they're difficult
Speaker 1: decisions to make. They're hard to make, but that's why
Speaker 1: you get paid the money. You get paid to make
Speaker 1: those decisions.
Speaker 2: Uh, just just digressing a bit before I answer that.
Speaker 2: You know, the one thing that being with the many
Speaker 2: of the live golf players, one thing that really pleases
Speaker 2: me is everyone says that if they have got a
Speaker 2: suggestion or you know, if they want to say something
Speaker 2: to Greg, that it be implemented, starting with say the trows,
Speaker 2: the trousers, if you want to where your shots, you
Speaker 2: are allowed to wear it. One thing that they have
Speaker 2: always said is that Greg is always willing to listen
Speaker 2: to the players and communicates to the players whatever he
Speaker 2: knows at that time. I think that is completely missing
Speaker 2: on the Pediator. It's I know it's a larger organization
Speaker 2: and things like that, but if you are heading that organization.
Speaker 2: You've got to have the trust of the players who
Speaker 2: are all your members, and I think that is something
Speaker 2: that Jay had maybe two years ago, but he completely
Speaker 2: lost it in the last two years. So many of
Speaker 2: the players are still struggling, at least some of them
Speaker 2: who I've spoken to to really give the one hundred
Speaker 2: percent trust back to Jay. Even if the merger happens,
Speaker 2: or even if the piff and My investment happens, I
Speaker 2: think there will still be a question mark over how
Speaker 2: Jay went about his job in getting it done.
Speaker 1: So where do you think all this plays out? I
Speaker 1: mean you, I don't think anybody knows. And I think
Speaker 1: that's the big question, right, I mean, where are we
Speaker 1: in your opinion? Where do you think we are in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five? And what do you think the professional
Speaker 1: golf landscape looks like? And it's a question, Joe that
Speaker 1: I'm asking everybody because I don't because nobody knows, right,
Speaker 1: everything's just I guess everything's just kind of your experience.
Speaker 1: But in your opinion, what do you see happening in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five?
Speaker 2: So the best case scenario or what I would really
Speaker 2: like to see is that I don't want a unification
Speaker 2: or anything like that. But there is a good working
Speaker 2: relationship between Pediator and Live Golf too, and if that
Speaker 2: means giving invitation to some of the players to the
Speaker 2: place they've been shaped, or finding a way that some
Speaker 2: of the couple of the wild cards are given to
Speaker 2: the Pediator players who want to come and play on
Speaker 2: the live golf, that happens, you know. Having said that,
Speaker 2: my issue is that from June sixth to December thirty
Speaker 2: one there was a huge time frame for the framework
Speaker 2: agreement to be fructified, finalized and implemented and done. If
Speaker 2: it has not happened up until now, and now we
Speaker 2: are looking at another long gap till the Tour Championship,
Speaker 2: I really don't think it will happen, you know. I
Speaker 2: think there are forces not sure about it, but there
Speaker 2: are forces which are against and now that they have
Speaker 2: got some kind of support from SSAG as well, so
Speaker 2: there are forces which are saying that do we need
Speaker 2: to go that way? So it might just not happen.
Speaker 1: I've never heard the fans be talked more about, and
Speaker 1: I never heard the product be talked about. I mean,
Speaker 1: you've been around perfectly. Did you ever hear anybody talk
Speaker 1: about the product. Nobody talked about the product and the
Speaker 1: type of product we were putting out and the type
Speaker 1: of product professional golf was putting now. I mean, nobody
Speaker 1: talked about the product five years ago, And to be
Speaker 1: honest with you, I didn't hear anybody in global golf
Speaker 1: from the PGA Tour, from DP World Tour Asia before it.
Speaker 1: Nobody talked about the fans. Nobody talked about what the
Speaker 1: fans wanted the tours, and the majors just basically did
Speaker 1: what they wanted, ran the tournaments however they wanted, and
Speaker 1: nobody talked about the product. Now, all anybody talks about,
Speaker 1: in my opinion on the PGA Tour is you just
Speaker 1: talk about the product all the time. And I'm wondering
Speaker 1: where this talk of the product came from.
Speaker 2: I honestly believe it has come from live you know,
Speaker 2: because I've seen. I've seen. I'm probably one of the
Speaker 2: few journalists who has been to ten, twelve, at least
Speaker 2: thirteen of the live events, and one thing that I've
Speaker 2: noticed is that every time I go, they've tried to
Speaker 2: do something better for the fans. I mean, look at
Speaker 2: the graphics on the on the you were in Hong
Speaker 2: Kong and that entire digital screen that was put up
Speaker 2: on the first t that was so impressive. The kind
Speaker 2: of you know, infrastructure that they put up for the
Speaker 2: fans was so impressive.
Speaker 1: Well, Rory in his press conference yesterday at the Players,
Speaker 1: he was talking about bigger events where there's other things
Speaker 1: around the events that it's just not golf, that there's
Speaker 1: more fan engagement, there's all this other stuff. And there
Speaker 1: are a lot of people that think that kind of
Speaker 1: sounds like what Live tried to do and what everybody
Speaker 1: was so adamantly against. Do you think that all of
Speaker 1: this change regardless of what side you're on. And again,
Speaker 1: I'll keep saying this, you don't have to You can
Speaker 1: watch and consume your golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just have to be golf fan. That's wherever
Speaker 2: you want to watch idiator or a live golf fan,
Speaker 2: you need to be a golf fan. That's that's what
Speaker 2: I keep saying to everyone. You can enjoy Pediator as
Speaker 2: much as you can enjoy a live golf. There is
Speaker 2: a completely different product over there, and you can absolutely
Speaker 2: enjoy it. I mean, the telecast of the product is
Speaker 2: so great good that they live golf, So yes, what
Speaker 2: Rory said, and I mean, just just to give you
Speaker 2: an example of Claude and you have seen it around.
Speaker 2: All the teams have been asked on Live Golf to
Speaker 2: do sustainability and community outreach programs whenever they go anywhere,
Speaker 2: and so many communities are benefiting from that. I mean,
Speaker 2: like from what time from that, For example, the iron
Speaker 2: Heads did something at a public golf course in Hong Kong.
Speaker 2: You know that all the teams do something. You know,
Speaker 2: with any organizations, charity is those kinds of stuff. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know if Pediator has a lot of charity,
Speaker 2: and oh of course they they have, but do they
Speaker 2: do that many activations in one tournament? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I'm an eight to sixteen activations at
Speaker 2: least in a week.
Speaker 1: Listen. I think there's room for both. And I've always
Speaker 1: thought that, you know, this misconception that the golf on
Speaker 1: live isn't good. I mean, you've been to as many
Speaker 1: golf tournaments as I have. The finishes have been good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: You've been to as many golf tournaments as I have.
Speaker 1: You've traveled to Asia, You've traveled to the Middle East,
Speaker 1: You've traveled to Europe. One of the knocks against the
Speaker 1: lift tournaments from the people that don't like him, as
Speaker 1: there's nobody out in these tournaments. Listen, I was I.
Speaker 1: I was with phil in Abu Dabi when he came over.
Speaker 1: There was nobody at that tournament. You've been to a
Speaker 1: lot of tournaments in China and an Asia. They don't
Speaker 1: get the fans that they get in the United States.
Speaker 1: There were a lot of European Tour. I've been traveling
Speaker 1: on the European Tour since two thousand and two. I've
Speaker 1: been to more tournaments on the European Tour with no
Speaker 1: fans than I have been with fans. Right, if you
Speaker 1: asked me over the course of the twenty some odd
Speaker 1: years that I've traveled on and off the European Tour,
Speaker 1: and I worked full time on the European Tour for
Speaker 1: three years. In the twenty some odd years that I've
Speaker 1: been to European Tour events and watch them, I can
Speaker 1: list more tournaments that didn't have fans than did so
Speaker 1: the product all over the place is different. But last
Speaker 1: week in Hong Kong, again going back this idea that
Speaker 1: one of the knocks I bent, everybody saying they went
Speaker 1: to live to grow the game. I'm not saying that
Speaker 1: that was one true but last week in Hong Kong,
Speaker 1: they've never seen that many of the world's best players
Speaker 1: in one place at any one time, and I think
Speaker 1: that I think it's been very interesting that Jay's comments
Speaker 1: at the players this week is golf is a global game.
Speaker 1: But the PGA Tour, I mean, what year was it.
Speaker 1: We're all four of the wgc's the World Golf Championship.
Speaker 1: Weren't all four of them in the United States one year?
Speaker 2: But where are the wgc's too biggest?
Speaker 1: We're gone now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was one one way that the global
Speaker 2: stars could have been, you know, showcased. So they used
Speaker 2: to be at least three of Poasian Tour players, three
Speaker 2: or four Australian players.
Speaker 1: Japanese tour players.
Speaker 2: Where are the WGCs now?
Speaker 1: And that's Rory's been talking about that in recent months.
Speaker 1: He's been talking about taking the game, taking the PGA
Speaker 1: Tour to I think what we saw, you know, from
Speaker 1: a lif standpoint in Hong Kong was great. What we
Speaker 1: saw last year in Adelaide, I mean, if there's a
Speaker 1: country that stars for real professional golf, I mean, if
Speaker 1: Jay Monahan wants to wants a good idea, put a
Speaker 1: PGA Tour event, a full field PGA Tour event in
Speaker 1: Sydney or Melbourne and make it a designated event, and
Speaker 1: it would be unbelievable. I mean it would be everybody
Speaker 1: would watch, it would sell out. And is there an
Speaker 1: argument to me made one of the positives of Live
Speaker 1: is it is maybe going after a more international sector
Speaker 1: as opposed to just focusing solely on the US and
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I think what Adelaide, what Hong Kong has shown
Speaker 2: is that there's so much appetite for the game, you know, globally,
Speaker 2: hum it has to go out. If it has if
Speaker 2: golf has to grow, it has to go out to
Speaker 2: these parts of the world world. And if Rory talks
Speaker 2: about the global Tour and what Live is already doing,
Speaker 2: I think if periodor starts doing it, so deep World
Speaker 2: Tour is coming to Asia for the Asian swaying, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, there are going to be a couple of tournaments.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: If you if you tell me that somebody like Fachara
Speaker 2: Congwat Mai from Thailand is not the best high player
Speaker 2: at the moment, or if you say that Anirban Lai
Speaker 2: is not the best Indian player at the moment, and
Speaker 2: if they don't get into these tournaments. Thankfully, Anirban has
Speaker 2: gotten into the Indian Open, but that is that is
Speaker 2: a different I mean, he's the leading Indian and it's
Speaker 2: the Indian Open. But other Deepi World Tour events, they
Speaker 2: have not really given the opportunity to the local players.
Speaker 2: And the converse is that when somebody something like this
Speaker 2: is happening over here, I say International series is happening
Speaker 2: over here, or when it was happening in a in Oman,
Speaker 2: DEEPI Wiltour was not giving release to the players because
Speaker 2: there was a concurrent event which was being held on
Speaker 2: the on the DEEPI Wiltour, even if they are Asian players.
Speaker 2: So these are some of the things which actually seem
Speaker 2: very pretty petty to me right now, and and these
Speaker 2: are things that have to be gotten over if if
Speaker 2: you want the game to grow in all parts of
Speaker 2: the world.
Speaker 1: Plus a joy talking about growing the game. India one
Speaker 1: of the most populous countries on the planet. Give me
Speaker 1: your take, because I don't think there's anybody that has
Speaker 1: their finger on the pulse of Indian golf the way
Speaker 1: that you do and you write about it all the time.
Speaker 1: What do you like about where Indian golf is right now?
Speaker 1: And what do you think we're going to see in
Speaker 1: the next five years? And and give me some players
Speaker 1: both on the men's and the women's side that that
Speaker 1: you think that we're going to be hearing about on
Speaker 1: a golo on a global stage from India in professional
Speaker 1: golf moving forward.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know the thing right now is that the
Speaker 2: girls are playing phenomenal golf. So I mean, Aditi is
Speaker 2: doing Aditya Shok is doing really well on the Lvdator.
Speaker 2: There are a couple of girls dick Sha and you know,
Speaker 2: girls like Brandavi were doing very well on the l T.
Speaker 2: The boys have been left a little behind. But then
Speaker 2: we always have somebody like to look up to.
Speaker 1: Here he's playing, I mean, he's playing some of the
Speaker 1: best golf I've seen him play in a long time.
Speaker 1: And anybody that thinks that honor Bandlea here if he
Speaker 1: was playing on the PGA Tour wouldn't be You wouldn't
Speaker 1: see his name on a leaderboard. He's just crazy, right,
Speaker 1: I Mean, that's the type of player he is. He's
Speaker 1: got world class game this week in Macau. We've got
Speaker 1: some of the old guard of of of Indian golf.
Speaker 1: Jeef Milkha Singh, one of my favorite players, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite people, Shif Kapor. But a guy like Honor Bond.
Speaker 1: For Bond now, Joey, how important do you think Bond's success,
Speaker 1: whether whether you like where he's playing or not. Forget
Speaker 1: all that Bond's success, How does that play in India
Speaker 1: for this next generation? Because one of the things I
Speaker 1: think that is really important for growing the game of
Speaker 1: golf in the developing nations is for that. Yes, everybody's hero.
Speaker 1: If you're a young golfer from Thailand, your hero is
Speaker 1: Scotti Scheffler, It's John Rahm, it's Roy McElroy, It's the
Speaker 1: global superstars. But what I think helps grow golf in
Speaker 1: the developing nations is for the young golfers to be
Speaker 1: able to look at say, okay, he's from Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: Roy McElroy. If you're a young golfer in India, you
Speaker 1: have a hard time relating to him. Right, he's from
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, he lives in America. Right, he plays his golf.
Speaker 1: But if you can touch and feel a golfer who's
Speaker 1: from your country or from your city or town where
Speaker 1: you grew up with and he was a member of
Speaker 1: your club and you got to see, touch and feel him.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think those stories for Indian golf on the big
Speaker 1: stage with the success that the ladies are having on
Speaker 1: the LPGA, but on the bigger stage, I think it
Speaker 1: is hugely important to help grow professional golf in the
Speaker 1: developing countries. To have a superstore that you can say, Okay,
Speaker 1: yeah I can I grew up like he did. He
Speaker 1: grew up like I grew Yeah, don't you agree?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. So if if I just begin with the
Speaker 2: professional golfers who are not part of LIV, who are
Speaker 2: playing on the Asian Tour, who are playing on the PGTA,
Speaker 2: one of their dreams now is to be part of
Speaker 2: the Lift golfs. I mean, and money is a consideration.
Speaker 2: Let me not you know, try to hide that money
Speaker 2: is the main consideration. I mean that they know that
Speaker 2: if they are on lif Golf, they can earn a
Speaker 2: lot of money. So he has somebody like an Urban
Speaker 2: has already influenced his peers. But you know, I mean
Speaker 2: just some of the young kids I was have been
Speaker 2: speaking to some of the juniors, and everyone wants to
Speaker 2: be like an urban Larry. I mean they know that
Speaker 2: if I mean he has come second four times on
Speaker 2: the on the on Live Golf already, they know that
Speaker 2: he has won more than two million dollars with each
Speaker 2: of those things. Place finish money is a big factor,
Speaker 2: and even the young golfers, they are influenced by it.
Speaker 2: I mean they want to be like Tiger Woods and
Speaker 2: when fifteen majors, but they also want to be like
Speaker 2: Tiger Woods and have that kind of villas and look
Speaker 2: after their family everybody like their own jet.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like Tiger and Rory have. I mean the funny
Speaker 1: thing that I think it's been so funny through all
Speaker 1: this joys if you look at Rory McRoy, I mean
Speaker 1: the two lightning rods over the last Roy's kind of
Speaker 1: softened his stance right over the last yeah, six months,
Speaker 1: since the merger talks, he's kind of yeah, he's walked
Speaker 1: back a little. But for a while it was Rory
Speaker 1: and Greg kind of going out at each other. They
Speaker 1: were the two kind of lightning rods, and I looked
Speaker 1: at kind of their careers. Yes, Rory's won four majors,
Speaker 1: Greg's only one, two. But everybody looks at Greg Norman's
Speaker 1: career and thinks he was an underachiever in the majors.
Speaker 1: The last time Rory won a major was two thousand
Speaker 1: and fourteen. If I told you in twenty four that
Speaker 1: Rory would only have four majors, you would not believe me.
Speaker 1: You'd think he would have ten majors by this point, right,
Speaker 1: And so when I looked at how many wins they had,
Speaker 1: I mean, when Rory won in Canada a couple of
Speaker 1: years ago, he referenced, I've got one more win than
Speaker 1: Greg on the PGA Tour. If you looked at there
Speaker 1: was a point last year where the amount of PGA
Speaker 1: Tour wins and European Tour wins for Greg and Rory
Speaker 1: were almost kind of identical. They're both seen as the
Speaker 1: iconic superstars of their generation. They both dominated professional golf
Speaker 1: by their driver. They're both currently famous for not being
Speaker 1: able to get it done at Augusta National, which is
Speaker 1: a golf course for both Rory and Greg Norman. If
Speaker 1: you could design golf courses for both of them, those
Speaker 1: would be the perfect golf courses. And I just they
Speaker 1: both have the same make of private jet yeah, right.
Speaker 1: They both live in West they both live in the
Speaker 1: same city, in the same state in America. They both
Speaker 1: left their home country and their home tours. And when
Speaker 1: I found it fascinating for as much as those two
Speaker 1: butted heads publicly, how eerily similar their careers are. They
Speaker 1: are the iconic players of their generations, right, they are
Speaker 1: the ultimate. You ask anybody currently playing here this week,
Speaker 1: who do they want to be, They're gonna tell you
Speaker 1: they want to be Rory McRoy. They want his career,
Speaker 1: they want his life off the golf course, they want
Speaker 1: his stature. Twenty fifteen years ago, twenty years ago, you
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of young players before Tiger came out,
Speaker 1: who do they want to be? They wanted to be
Speaker 1: Greg Norton. He was the store. And I just found
Speaker 1: it fascinating that as much as those two were kind
Speaker 1: of going at each other, how similar, their careers really
Speaker 1: were very similar type careers, just the greatest players of
Speaker 1: their generation, icons And they were going at each other
Speaker 1: in the press, and I was just like, you two
Speaker 1: are so close to each other, you don't realize it.
Speaker 2: That's that's so true now that you pointed it out.
Speaker 2: I mean exactly I think I was a little surprised
Speaker 2: by Rory's vehement criticism. I mean, he didn't criticize Saudi
Speaker 2: as much as he criticized liv God. But Rory is
Speaker 2: someone who actually spent a lot of years in the
Speaker 2: Middle East, and he knows that changes. Yeah, and he
Speaker 2: has seen the kind of changes and the kind of
Speaker 2: people you have over there. I mean, Cloud, you lived
Speaker 2: over there in Dubai, have you? I mean, the Arabs
Speaker 2: are one of the most hospitable people in the world.
Speaker 1: And they love golf.
Speaker 2: They love everything that gives them joy. Like you know,
Speaker 2: I'm in Dune bashing, you know, cause they love their stuff,
Speaker 2: they love people. I don't know why there's so much
Speaker 2: of you know, Saudi influence on live golf and things
Speaker 2: like that. Why should that really matter? I mean, if
Speaker 2: one of the things that I keep telling many of
Speaker 2: the journalists is why don't you come to Saudi and
Speaker 2: just have a look? Well, I think it's been interesting
Speaker 2: enough changes they have made over.
Speaker 1: The last three years. Joy. I think it's been interesting
Speaker 1: that some of the most vehement critics of Live in
Speaker 1: the Saudi involvement and professional golf have never been to
Speaker 1: a tournament. Yeah, Will openly tell you they don't watch
Speaker 1: and they have such staunch opinions of it. And I
Speaker 1: think one of the reasons why a lot of the
Speaker 1: Live players have spoken so freely about the PGA tour
Speaker 1: is they were on the PGA tour for twenty years.
Speaker 1: DJ was on the PGA tour up until he went
Speaker 1: to Live for almost fifteen years. They know what the
Speaker 1: PGA tour is like, they know what that infrastructure is like,
Speaker 1: they know what that ecosystem is like. And I've found
Speaker 1: it fascinating that a lot of the people that have
Speaker 1: been so fiercely, fiercely anti Live have no involvement at all.
Speaker 1: They don't talk to anybody, they don't interview anybody in
Speaker 1: the live ecosystem. I mean, I look at a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, I think we're starting to see some
Speaker 1: of the some of the podcasters start to bring in
Speaker 1: some guys. But for two years, all anybody did was
Speaker 1: basically shit all over Live and it was the root
Speaker 1: of all evil, and they basically lived in their own
Speaker 1: eco chamber of just no, no, we know exactly what
Speaker 1: it's like. I'm like, how do you know what it's like?
Speaker 1: You say you don't even watch it? And I just
Speaker 1: I hope in twenty twenty five, Joy, maybe we get
Speaker 1: to a point with Rory kind of softening some of
Speaker 1: the things he's saying. Billy Horschell saying this week the
Speaker 1: Players Championship maybe should If the majors are inviting players
Speaker 1: that are from live, maybe they could do the same
Speaker 1: thing if they want the Players Championship to be seen
Speaker 1: as the fifth major. If I told you two years
Speaker 1: ago or a year or if I told you two
Speaker 1: years ago Billy Horschell was going to be at the
Speaker 1: Players Championship in twenty four saying maybe we jay should
Speaker 1: invite live players, nobody would believe that. So maybe in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five we just get back to what professional
Speaker 1: football soccer is around the world is. If you want
Speaker 1: to watch the Italian League, you watch the Italian League.
Speaker 1: If you want watch Spanish England, wherever. There's great golf
Speaker 1: being played all over the world.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, there are.
Speaker 1: Great players playing all over the world, and regardless of
Speaker 1: where they're playing and who they're playing against, you know,
Speaker 1: pre live. If somebody wins four tournaments in Europe, they
Speaker 1: are getting an invite into Honda, the old Honda. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they are getting an invite into Wells Fargo. They are
Speaker 1: getting an invite into Memorial, They're getting an invite into Tampa.
Speaker 1: We've seen that, We've watched that, I've lived watching that,
Speaker 1: and maybe we get back to a point in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five to where some of the heat and the
Speaker 1: sting of all of this taken out and we realize
Speaker 1: that this is just basically what happens in every single
Speaker 1: walk of life. And I've always thought this joy that
Speaker 1: there is this contingent of golf fans and people involved
Speaker 1: in golf that want golf to be this Truman show
Speaker 1: y thing that never changes, right, That golf's like it
Speaker 1: was in the forties and the fifties and the sixties,
Speaker 1: and it's gotta be the same and it won't change.
Speaker 1: And I think maybe one of the positives of Live
Speaker 1: coming in has made everybody kind of pivot and go, Okay, hey,
Speaker 1: what is the product? Yeah, because I never heard anybody
Speaker 1: talk about the product before.
Speaker 2: Nobody thought that golf could be a five hour thing.
Speaker 2: The entire date of a tournament would be a five
Speaker 2: hour to six hour window where it can all be done.
Speaker 2: And when that is important. You don't expect the fan
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously Saturday Sunday is another matter. But if
Speaker 2: he wants to come on Thursday, and if he has
Speaker 2: got six hours and comes and watches almost the entire
Speaker 2: action out there, how good is that?
Speaker 1: And you've see that, you think the majors hold the key?
Speaker 1: Do you think the four majors really do hold the
Speaker 1: keys to the two kingdom more than the tours? Do?
Speaker 2: I think they do? Once once they start inviting the players,
Speaker 2: which which Masters has set a good president by inviting
Speaker 2: fucking quite a few lift players have earned their way
Speaker 2: back into the Open Championship. But if we get majors
Speaker 2: to give out at least to start with two or
Speaker 2: three invites to the top two three players on lift golf,
Speaker 2: let's make a start. I mean, these are great golfers.
Speaker 2: These are golfers who have got not just you know,
Speaker 2: history behind them. They have talent, they have they have
Speaker 2: the will power to win, and.
Speaker 1: They're winning tournaments, yeah, all over the world wherever they play,
Speaker 1: whether they're seventy two whole no regular cut events, if
Speaker 1: they're I mean, we're seeing David Peuge and Waco and
Speaker 1: Cordo and Team Burmaster and Louis. We're seeing these players
Speaker 1: go and play all over the world, and it was
Speaker 1: never a surprise if you saw a it wasn't a surprise.
Speaker 1: To go over and see Justin Rose play in Singapore
Speaker 1: and be on the leader board not a surprise. And
Speaker 1: I don't I don't understand why players. I think players
Speaker 1: should have the freedom to play and play wherever they want.
Speaker 1: I personally think that's that's gonna help Joy. These decisions
Speaker 1: will be made by people a hell of a lot
Speaker 1: smarter than you and I boy, but I think you're
Speaker 1: doing fantastic, fantastic writing, and keep up the good work.
Speaker 1: And if you want to know what's going on with
Speaker 1: Indian golf, joys your man. Joy, Thanks for talking to us.
Speaker 2: Thanks God really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: So I thought that was a very very interesting perspective
Speaker 1: and a different perspective than than maybe some of you
Speaker 1: that listened to the pot I've heard. But I thought
Speaker 1: Joy touched on a lot of really important subjects and listen,
Speaker 1: I don't think anybody knows what's going to happen in
Speaker 1: world golf. I think it's all just kind of speculation
Speaker 1: at this point. But I think Joy's kind of global
Speaker 1: view and the fact that he has been a Globe
Speaker 1: trottle and writes about golf not only just on the
Speaker 1: PGA Tour and on the DP World, but writes about
Speaker 1: golf in India, writes about golf in Asia, and I
Speaker 1: thought that was a really, really good one. I want
Speaker 1: to thank everyone for listening. Son of a Butcher comes
Speaker 1: to you every Wednesday. We will see you next week.