WEBVTT - Impeaching Mayorkas & Multibillion Dollar Bayer Verdicts 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.600 We will be moving forward swiftly on those articles. It's 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:13.560 long overdue. 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:17.680 Only one Cabinet secretary has ever been impeached by the House, 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:22.000 and that was in eighteen seventy six. But House Republicans 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.960 are trying to make that happen again, this time to 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:29.840 Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Majorcis. The Republicans who are leading 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:33.360 the impeachment inquiry said that Majorcas has been ignoring the 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.760 law and accused him of creating the crisis at the border. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.720 Here's the chair of the Homeland Security Committee, Republican Mark Green. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:44.720 Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Majorcis took a similar oath, but 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:47.600 he has not lived up to it. He is wilfully 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:51.040 and systematically refused to comply with the laws passed by 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:55.000 Congress and breached the trust of Congress and the American people. 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.120 But Democrats, like Committee ranking member Benny Thompson, say that 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.600 Republicans are confusing law with policy and that Majorcis has 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.440 acted within his authority to enforce current immigration laws. 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:12.640 He's leveraged the full range of authorities at his disposal, 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.720 while stretching the resources provided by Congress to secure the border. 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.280 He has removed record levels of migrants detained by more 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:27.240 people than Congress has provided funding for, and prevented record 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.400 levels of fentanyl from entering our communities. 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:35.200 And Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman says its pure hypocrisy to 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.560 impeach Mariorcists while he's working with a group of Senate 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:43.200 Republicans to craft a bipartisan deal on immigration, a deal 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.319 that House Republicans refused to consider. The committee vote to 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:51.960 advance the impeachment articles against Mariorcists was eighteen to fifteen 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.800 down party lines. Joining me is an expert on impeachment, 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.320 Michael Gerhard, a professor at the University of North Carolina 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.720 Law School. I'd like to start with the basics, explain 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:08.200 the standard of high crimes and misdemeanors needed to impeach someone. 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:14.040 Those terms referred to serious abuses of power or misconduct 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.000 on the part of the people who are impeachable that 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:17.880 seriously hurts the republic. 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.440 So there's nothing definitive. It's a broad category. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.800 Well, it's a broad category, but I don't think it 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.440 lacks definiteness. I think it just means that it creates 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:31.440 a metric which ought to sort of recognize that some 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.440 things are going to fall below it and some things 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:37.720 are going to fit. Jay Walkin won't qualify, but President's 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.560 lying to the Senate to securit a Treaties ratification might qualify. 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.120 Abuse of the pardon power might qualify. 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:50.119 They have advanced two articles of impeachment against Secretary Majorcis. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.600 The first is that he's willfully and systemically refused to 0:02:54.639 --> 0:03:00.160 comply with immigration laws enacted by Congress. They're basically saying 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:05.240 that his actions have created the crisis at the border. 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.480 That's what they want to say. Yes, and of course 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:14.320 that's absurd. That crisis has been around for decades and 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:17.920 New Yorcus is following the law, as both he and 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.400 President Biden understand. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:24.560 Some Democratic lawmakers have said that what the Republicans are 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:28.680 complaining about or attacking Majorcus for is policy. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.359 Yes. In fact, for example, the reference to as a 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.640 basis for one of the patron articles, New York has 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.560 has made various false statements. But if you sort of 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:41.040 get behind that, what the articles are really saying is, well, 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.040 he hasn't said under oath that the situation at the 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.640 southern border is like what we the Republicans think it is. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.200 They doesn't make for a false statement. It just means 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:51.640 that New York is you know from the respective he's god, 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.000 he's got a good faith understanding. It's just different than 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:56.000 what the Republicans said. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:59.640 That's part of the second article of impeachment, knowingly making 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.840 false it's to Congress and the American people and obstructing 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.440 Congressional oversight of his department. In fact, he's testified before 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.400 Congress more than any other cabinet member twenty seven times 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:12.880 in thirty five months. 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.640 And really what's behind that charge is he just hasn't 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:19.200 said what they want him to say. He hasn't done 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.880 what they want him to do, So no legitimate basis 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:22.480 for impeachment. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.600 How unusual is it that they held two public impeachment 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.240 hearings last month without majorcas is in person testimony or 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.600 testimony from any fact witnesses. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.040 Exactly right, because this is not about impeachure on wisconduct. 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.320 It's about trying to hurt President Biden in his re 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.360 election campaign. This is about trying to serve make a 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.280 circus out of what's happening down at the border. So 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:54.240 the problem with basing impeachment on policy differences is that's 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:58.120 what elections are supposed to be about. And it's just 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.159 absurd to think what the trial is going to look 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.360 like if there were a trial on this, because what's 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.440 going to be put on trial is the Biden immigration policy, 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.360 and that's ridiculous. Peatment's design, as I said at the beginning, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:14.080 for serious misconduct or abuse of power that hurts the 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:19.320 Republic and having a good face difference of opinion about 0:05:19.800 --> 0:05:21.680 what might work at the border and what might not 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.719 work at the border is well within the bounds of 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.159 the President and Secretary's discression. And it's something that is 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:30.960 bear game to talk about in a presidential campaign. 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.520 And two law professors who testified before the committee agree 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.200 with you. They both stated they did not see a 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:43.280 constitutional basis for impeachment. And there are a whole slate 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:48.200 of Democrats that House Republicans want to impeach, including of 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.160 course the president. How did we get to this frequent 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:54.919 use of impeachment something that was rare in our history. 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.520 It happened with Trump and those people that want to 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.120 sort of follow his lead. So Mike Johnson is very 0:06:01.160 --> 0:06:03.720 close to Trump. You know, he voted not to impeach 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.039 Trump either time. And he's working with the kind of 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.479 far right and the magu Republicans in the House to 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.599 really turn impeachment into a partisan weapon. This is not 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:18.080 something that we've had experience with before because generally speaking, 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.400 although we've never had a perfect system of politics, impeachment 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.840 has been something that's been rarely used. But I think 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:28.080 one way Republicans can dilute the impeachment of Trump to 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:30.640 make it seem less serious, as if they just start 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:32.839 impeaching everybody. But of course they're not going to be 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.400 able to impeach everybody because they'd have to get the 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.680 moderate Republicans to go along. And there's no prospect whatsoever 0:06:39.839 --> 0:06:41.440 that any of these things are going to result in 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:42.120 the Senate conviction. 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:46.480 Yeah, and so the Homeland Security Committee Chair Mark Green 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.239 said he feels quote pretty good. The same question gets asked, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.600 are you just doing something that's going to wind up 0:06:52.600 --> 0:06:56.000 being fruitless anyway because of the Senate? Well, fine, if 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:57.960 that's what they choose to do, but I have a 0:06:58.040 --> 0:06:58.600 duty to. 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:02.880 Do right way is exactly what House Democrats said when 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.000 they were faced with the same argument when they were 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:09.120 trying to impeach Trump, and Republicans said at that time, Oh, 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:10.880 this is a waste of time. It's just going to 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:13.320 die in the Senate. But in my opinion, one big 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.920 difference between the two impeachments of Trump and these other 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:20.120 impeachments is the impeachments against Trump were based on his misconduct. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:24.120 Nobody invented that he engaged in certain activities that were 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.720 beyond either the skill of his power or that really 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.160 seriously injured the Constitution and the rule of law. So 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.480 I think one reason why we get this kind of 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.440 the whole slew of threats of impeachment is to perhaps 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.000 desensitize I guess the public when it comes to the 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.440 serious sense of impeachment. They want the public and gets 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.480 sick of it. They want to turn it into a joke. 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.160 And that's not what impeach is supposed to be for, 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.560 supposed to be rare, supposed to be the last resort 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:53.720 the dealing with going abuse of power that cannot be 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:55.440 remedied in any other way. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.680 The full House is going to vote on this, and 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:02.640 the Speaker the vote will take place as soon as possible, 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.400 and then it goes to the Senate. Does the Senate 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:06.560 have to hold a trial. 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.720 Then that is the big question. The Senate has to 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.720 do something now that doesn't necessarily mean hold the trial. 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.040 The Senate has various options. One is to consider point 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.480 of order to try and dismiss the articles basically for 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.160 failing to staying anything that's impeachable. Another option is to 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:27.320 have a trial committee authorized, which would then also consider 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.040 motions and brief while by the parties, one of which 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:32.520 might well be this ought to be dismissed because there's 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.560 no basis for it, And I think the likelihood is 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.720 that even in those scenarios I just described would be 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:43.600 the likeless possibility in the Senate because holding a trial 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.360 on these articles is absurd. As I mentioned before, it's 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.480 absurd because what the trial had been involved is putting 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.600 Biden's immigration policy on trial. That's never happened in American 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:58.480 history before, and it shouldn't happen here, and I don't 0:08:58.480 --> 0:08:59.800 think the Senate's going to let it happen. 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.480 So the Senate could also just run out the clock 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:04.240 until the next election. 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.120 Well, I don't know that the Senate will run out 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.560 the clock. I think they'll reach some resolution. I find 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.920 it less likely they would just run out the clock. 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.360 I mean, for one reason that when you have an 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.360 impeachment by the rules of the Senate, that tends to 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.440 displace everything else on the agenda. So the Senate's going 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.640 an incentive, if anything, to get rid of this quickly. 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.160 I think the fact that there is no evidence, that 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.520 Republicans themselves are saying there's no evidence, is a fatal 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.760 problem with these impeachment articles. And then I also think 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:34.960 another fatal problem is impeachment's not supposed to be a 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.040 partisan weapon, supposed to have a lawful purpose, and there's 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:39.200 no lawful purpose here. 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.680 Also, some Democrats are pointing out that it's odd or 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:48.200 hypocritical to impeach Majorcus at the same time that he's 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.559 working with a group of Senate Republicans to craft a 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.000 bypart is in deal to update immigration laws, a deal 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.360 which House Republicans oppose. 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.520 Exactly, And that tells us something out House Republicans' agenda. 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:04.280 So I think when you know Speaker Mike Johnson says 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:07.480 the Senate deal on the border is dead and arrival 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.160 and then proceeds to prioritize an impeachment in New YORKUS, 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:15.480 that pretty much is telling us all we need to 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:20.240 know because impeaching New Yorkers will not solve the crisis 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.199 at the border. Infect Senator Langford, a Republican from Oklahoma, said, 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:26.560 it's just going to result in Biden putting somebody else 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.640 in the same office, and that person will do exactly 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.040 what ri Orcus did. So I think the fact that 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:38.000 the House Repubments do not want to consider any compromise 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.560 bill coming from the Senate tells us that they're not 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.680 really concerned with whatever is happening at the border, but 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:46.400 rather they want to obviously hurt Biden in his re 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:47.240 election campaign. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:51.920 When was the last time anyone who was impeached was 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:53.439 convicted in the Senate? 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:59.160 Thomas Portius federal trial Judge Portis was convicted around twenty ten. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:01.880 But I mean, and there's one Cabinet member in American 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.400 history who is impeached. That's William Beltnapp, who tried to 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:09.000 resign but the Senate proceeded to hold a trial anyway 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.320 because he'd been accused of bribery. But it turned out 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.800 a majority of the Senate essentially voted to quit him 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:16.160 because he was no longer in offered. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.640 And to put the Majorcis impeachment in context, there have 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:23.440 only been twenty one impeachments in our country's history, and 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.160 only eight were found guilty by the Senate and removed 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:30.559 from office. And they were all federal judges like Judge Portius. 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:32.960 Thanks so much for being on the show, Michael. That's 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.400 Professor Michael Gerhardt of the University of North Carolina School 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:39.240 of Law coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show. 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.480 After the latest two point three billion dollar jury verdict 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.840 against Beyer over its Roundup weed killer, the question is 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:52.439 does the company need a new legal strategy. I'm June 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:57.000 Grosso and you're listening to Bloomberg. In the last three months, 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.760 Beyer has been hammered by jury verdicts totally almost four 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.720 billion dollars over its round Up weed killer. The latest 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:08.120 courtroom loss was its biggest since round up cases started 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.839 going to trial about five years ago, with the Pennsylvania 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:15.840 jury awarding two point twenty five billion dollars to a 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:19.560 former round Up user who blamed his cancer diagnosis on 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.680 long term exposure to the herbicide. That prompted a fresh 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:27.040 slump in Beyer shares as investors worried about the more 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:31.800 than fifty thousand round up claims outstanding, and that raises 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.280 the question of whether Beayer needs a new legal strategy 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.800 and what new game plan is even available. Joining me 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:42.320 is an expert in mass tort litigation, Elizabeth Birch, a 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.880 professor at the University of Georgia School of Law. So 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:49.960 Bayer's latest courtroom loss was its biggest since round up 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.280 cases started going to trial. Aren't companies supposed to learn 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.320 from past trials and avoid these huge verdicts. 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.920 One would certainly hope. So although I think you know, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.720 Bear would probably mention that they've won ten of the 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:07.920 last sixteen trials, I think their hope certainly is to 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.280 try to get a case like this reverse on appeal, 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.600 and there is some precedent for that in the past. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:17.240 Back in twenty nineteen, a California jury awarded roughly two 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.720 point five billion dollars in damages that ended up getting 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.240 slashed to eighty seven million. So it's still a lot 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:25.319 of money, but certainly not money. 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.800 With a bee, you know, beyor it's vowed to appeal, 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.319 express confidence that will prevail, and it says it's not 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:34.520 giving up as far as trying cases, But what is 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.440 it strategy? Because it did settle, it did spend about 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.120 ten billion on settling one hundred and fifty thousand cases. 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.720 You're right, it absolutely did, and it also indicated I 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.640 think a year or two ago, that it was planning 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:49.920 to pull round Up off the market in the next 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.640 couple of years. I think the hope being that at 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.680 some point these cases will stop. But the difficulty of 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:59.240 that bear's facing is that there's a long gap between 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.959 exposure a round Up and then the potential for developing 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.800 some sort of a non Hodgkinson bomar, a different type 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.440 of cancer and these types of cases. So it's really 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:10.200 hard to say, you know, even if we were to 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.320 pull round Up off the market tomorrow, when the litigation 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:15.120 might end, this isn't. 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.840 The only multi billion dollar verdict in a mass torque case. 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.280 Is there a reason why these verdicts are reaching what, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.200 you know, i'd consider astronomical figures. 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.080 Yeah, I mean, you know, the juries are not happy 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:31.920 with the evidence that they hear. There is evidence that 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.680 they are wanting to punish the company. So this isn't 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:37.239 just sort of a slap on the risk, let's compensate 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.160 the victim type of damage award. This is a you've 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:43.200 done something really wrong and we're angry about it kind 0:14:43.240 --> 0:14:43.720 of award. 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:48.280 It certainly seems they're angry. So theyer is facing now. 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.520 Ten trials are expected this year in state courts. It 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:55.960 says the companies committed to trying round up cases based 0:14:56.000 --> 0:15:00.600 on the strength of the science, favorable regulatory assessments worldwide, 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:05.480 and approven record of success at trial. It was successful 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.760 until I think it was October when plaintiffs started racking 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.800 up victories in California, Missouri, and Pennsylvania state courts. Did 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.200 something happen where the cases started to turn against Beyer? 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.480 You know, it's hard to pinpoint a particular sea change. 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.160 They were certainly successful in settling a bulk of those 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.640 cases through what's known as the multi district litigation process. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.320 That's at the federal level, but where they're really facing 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.840 pressure now is at the state level, particularly in jurisdictions 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:36.280 like Philadelphia. 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.200 Do you know, does Beyer use the same legal team 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.800 for these cases or do they change up legal teams? 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:45.080 You know, I don't know the answer to that. I 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.440 haven't followed who their lead lawyers are in these cases. 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.200 But it's not uncommon for there to be several big 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.880 law firms involved in handling a litigation. 0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:00.280 Like this, does beyor have enough money in its knowation 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:04.000 coffers to settle these cases or to pay them. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:08.360 Even well, I mean that certainly remains to be seen. 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.800 No money goes to the victims while cases are on appeal, 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.600 and as you know, appeals can last for a couple 0:16:15.680 --> 0:16:20.120 of years. So certainly there's that question if they're going 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.960 to continue to face these types of billion dollar verdicts, 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.359 whether at some point it's going to become an issue. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:29.120 But they haven't indicated that they are considering filing for 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.840 bankruptcy to my knowledge, And as you said. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.320 Even if they settle some cases, because Roundup is still 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:39.560 on the market, they're exposed to future litigation exactly. 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.320 So you can't sue just because you've been exposed to 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.680 a chemical. You can only sue once something has manifested, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.360 some sort of injury has manifested, which means that if 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.440 it takes some you know, ten to fourteen years between 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:56.520 the exposure to the product and the development of the disease, 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:58.640 that we're going to be looking at these types of 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.000 lawsuits for many years to come. 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.440 Do you know why Bayer didn't take round Up off 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.040 the market? What went into their calculation. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.840 I can only assume it's because it's still a pretty 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.120 big seller. You know, when they contemplated taking it off 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.359 the market and indicated that they were going to take 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.960 it off the market in the future, they were trying 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.879 to come up with something that was equally effective at 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:24.840 killing weeds, and that was going to take some time 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.960 to develop. With my understanding, so I think they're trying 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.199 to have some sort of replacement for it as soon 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:31.399 as they pull it from the shelf. 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:38.600 And there's contradictory scientific evidence and opinions from different agencies 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:44.240 about whether the chemical in roundup is a carcinogen dravid 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:46.520 and whether it's cancerous. 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.719 That's correct, and I think that's part of what juries 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.800 might be struggling with and maybe the reason for the 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:56.600 ten wins that they've had at trials. So back in 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.600 twenty fifteen, part of the World Health Organization shown called 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:05.280 the International Agency for Research on Cancer, classified the chemical 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.560 that's used in round Up, glycophosphate, as part of a 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:13.320 chemical that is probably carcinogenic in humans. But the EPA 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:16.119 back in twenty ten said there were no risks to 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.600 human help. So we really have some conflicting findings between 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:21.200 different organizations. 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:26.320 Have plaintiffs attorneys had a different strategy in the latest cases. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:29.800 You know, I think every case is probably unique in 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.760 the sense that you're really highlighting the facts of your 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.520 particular client. And I think what we see in this 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.080 latest case is not just the use of kind of 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.159 garden variety round up on a half acre plot of land, 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.960 but sustained use over a fairly large plot of land, 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.440 multiple acres and many, many gallons of round up braid 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.600 at a time. So you really do see a high 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:55.040 volume of exposure. And it's possible that the cases that 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.800 have been lost are cases with more casual use. 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:03.080 So we talk about the possibility of future cases. But 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.600 plaintiffs who sue in the future, are they on notice 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:11.200 of the possible cancer causing agents in roundup? 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.800 So this is one of the questions that we'll have 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.840 to see in the future. You know that the cases 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.879 that we're seeing right now don't have notice about this 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.920 potential for cancer. But in tort law, there's something called 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:26.760 the assumption of the risk and defense called comparative fault, 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.520 which means, you know, for example, that if you're a 0:19:29.560 --> 0:19:31.840 smoker and you've been smoking for a long time. But 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:34.720 you know that smoking can cause lung cancer, then you 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.120 bear some sort of fault in continuing to smoke. So 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:41.119 we may see defenses like that becoming more successful in 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:41.640 the future. 0:19:42.400 --> 0:19:48.000 Another front that Behar still hopes will be successful is 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:53.520 convincing US appeals courts that federal law preempts state based claims. 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:58.439 Well, the preemption question has been out there for a 0:19:58.480 --> 0:20:01.960 long time. It's not some thing that they've been successful 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.400 on thus far, and so you know, I think that's 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:08.160 still a really open question that remains to be seen, 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:10.159 but they haven't gotten a lot of traction with it. 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:15.000 Would it be possible for Bayer to negotiate a global 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:16.960 settlement of these claims. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:19.600 I think it's going to be really difficult for them 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.879 at this point. They certainly tried to negotiate a global 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.360 settlement several years ago when they tried to certify these 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.199 cases as a class action in federal court. That was 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:32.080 a move that was denied by the judge and the 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.760 federal multi district litigation. It would be really difficult, I 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.560 think without plaine of consent and Plaine offs attorney's consent 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.520 to get any sort of a global settlement. Given that 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.280 we're now looking at individual state court litigation, the round 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:47.080 up litigation. 0:20:47.520 --> 0:20:51.000 Is it creating a cloud over the company itself? 0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:54.200 Certainly? I mean, you know, we see shares of Bear 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.880 falling almost three percent before the jury announce their verdict, 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:02.480 and the sharehold are certainly watching this. So this is 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.160 a litigation that is a thorn in the side of Bear. 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.400 If you were advising Beyer, how would you advise them 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:13.040 to handle all these cases? I mean, try to settle. 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.480 I mean, it's a real problem. There's not a way 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.919 to get any kind of global resolution based on the 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.080 types of things that we know now. So the easiest 0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.080 way to try to do something like that would be 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:29.919 the file bankruptcy. But Bear has not indicated that I 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:31.919 know of that they have any sort of plans of 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.800 filing bankruptcy in the future. But in order to try 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.120 to get rid of state and federal cases and any 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:41.160 kind of holistic settlement, most defendants are looking at bankruptcy. 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.199 Johnson and Johnson tried to get the Supreme Court to 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:48.879 here it's appeal over a two point one billion dollar 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:54.040 chalk award, and the court refused. That was back in 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:58.919 twenty twenty one. Remind us of where the court stands 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.400 on these damage awards. 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:07.080 The Supreme Court back in the nineties decided several cases 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.800 a trilogy of cases on punitive damages that capped essentially 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.919 capped the ratio between compensatory damages and punitive damages is 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.399 no greater than nine to one. Now, there can certainly 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.719 be some exceptions to that, but in general, the Supreme 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:24.000 Court has weighed in. So this is what we think 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.119 would be appropriate. But the Supreme Court really has not 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:30.720 gotten involved in these types of mass towards settlements. In fact, 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:34.639