1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,236 --> 00:00:24,556 Speaker 2: I read footnotes. I always have. Perhaps it seems like 3 00:00:24,596 --> 00:00:27,156 Speaker 2: good manners to read everything someone else has written for you, 4 00:00:27,756 --> 00:00:32,116 Speaker 2: like cleaning your plate when you're a kid. Or maybe 5 00:00:32,156 --> 00:00:34,436 Speaker 2: it's because a footnote is where you put the bit 6 00:00:34,476 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 2: of information that doesn't quite fit the main story, but 7 00:00:38,196 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 2: at the same time is too important to leave out. 8 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 2: And to my mind, the thing that is important and 9 00:00:45,036 --> 00:00:48,716 Speaker 2: doesn't fit is often the most important thing of all. 10 00:00:49,996 --> 00:00:53,956 Speaker 2: So I read footnotes, and occasionally that leads me somewhere 11 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:58,796 Speaker 2: entirely unexpected, like the footnote at the very end of 12 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:02,836 Speaker 2: a paper in the Journal of Criminal Justice entitled Damned 13 00:01:02,916 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 2: upon Arrival, volume twenty three, number four, pages three thirteen 14 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:13,276 Speaker 2: to three, twenty three, nineteen ninety five. Lead author Penelope J. Hanke, 15 00:01:13,996 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 2: Second author James H. Goodluck. It made me go all 16 00:01:19,916 --> 00:01:22,596 Speaker 2: the way to a little town in Alabama to have 17 00:01:22,676 --> 00:01:25,476 Speaker 2: the man who wrote the footnote explained to me thirty 18 00:01:25,556 --> 00:01:31,236 Speaker 2: years later, just what it meant. Could you do me 19 00:01:31,236 --> 00:01:31,596 Speaker 2: a favorite? 20 00:01:31,636 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: Can you read that? Read the footnote for me? 21 00:01:36,676 --> 00:01:43,596 Speaker 3: Small print At three or two am on September the 22 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:47,596 Speaker 3: twenty third, nineteen ninety four, a little over a month 23 00:01:47,676 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 3: after doctor Hanche and I submitted this article to the 24 00:01:51,276 --> 00:01:56,196 Speaker 3: Ejournal of Criminal Justice. A death following the pattern described 25 00:01:56,196 --> 00:02:02,716 Speaker 3: in this article little Stuckholm Jay Brandon Young, age seventeen 26 00:02:02,796 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 3: were shot in the back with a twelve gay shotgun 27 00:02:05,276 --> 00:02:09,996 Speaker 3: and killed in my house and a predominantly black part 28 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:15,276 Speaker 3: of rue Macon County, Alabama. 29 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:19,356 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 30 00:02:19,596 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This episode is 31 00:02:26,116 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 2: about the death of Brandon Young. James Gunlock lives in Shorter, Alabama, 32 00:02:42,716 --> 00:02:46,156 Speaker 2: a little town just south of Tuskegee along I eighty five. 33 00:02:46,836 --> 00:02:50,156 Speaker 2: Some parts of Alabama are wild and hilly. This is 34 00:02:50,196 --> 00:02:54,116 Speaker 2: the other side of the state, flat swampy pine trees. 35 00:02:54,516 --> 00:02:57,756 Speaker 2: Macon County one of the eighteen counties that make up 36 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 2: the Black Belt of Alabama, where the cotton plantations were 37 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:05,196 Speaker 2: in the days before the Civil War. Gundlock lives with 38 00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:09,396 Speaker 2: his wife in an eighteen forties plantation house, a doctress house. 39 00:03:10,036 --> 00:03:13,196 Speaker 2: The old slave quarters are in the basement directly below 40 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:15,996 Speaker 2: the old surgery, so the slave stove could heat the 41 00:03:15,996 --> 00:03:20,636 Speaker 2: doctor's offices during the winter. Two enormous Anatolian shepherds pat 42 00:03:20,676 --> 00:03:25,236 Speaker 2: around presenting their giant heads for attention. The house looks 43 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:28,756 Speaker 2: untouched from the nineteenth century. There's an abandoned truck in 44 00:03:28,796 --> 00:03:29,396 Speaker 2: the backyard. 45 00:03:31,836 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 1: I grew up tough. 46 00:03:35,156 --> 00:03:39,596 Speaker 3: I was a World War two baby, and my father 47 00:03:39,716 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 3: came back from the war mentally messed up, and he 48 00:03:42,156 --> 00:03:47,556 Speaker 3: became an alcoholic. And we lived on a farm, and 49 00:03:48,356 --> 00:03:51,036 Speaker 3: he would take off on a drinking branch, taking my 50 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:53,396 Speaker 3: mother with him, and be gone for days. 51 00:03:54,676 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 2: Gun Luck is tall, stooped, wisps of white hair. He 52 00:03:59,436 --> 00:04:00,756 Speaker 2: moves and talks slowly. 53 00:04:01,796 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 3: That continued on. When I was eleven, we ran out 54 00:04:06,676 --> 00:04:12,836 Speaker 3: of the food and I saw this flock of blackbirds crows, 55 00:04:14,796 --> 00:04:17,756 Speaker 3: and so I took the twelve gate shotgun and my 56 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:20,076 Speaker 3: brother and I we went up and stuck up on him. 57 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:22,516 Speaker 3: And as soon as I started flying, I went I 58 00:04:22,556 --> 00:04:25,756 Speaker 3: got two shots off, and that's I was talking to you. 59 00:04:25,796 --> 00:04:30,196 Speaker 3: My brother, reminiscing about this, said, yeah, if you said, 60 00:04:30,236 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 3: your whope shoulder hurts so much, you may may go 61 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:37,836 Speaker 3: pick up all the dead birds. But we sat there, 62 00:04:37,996 --> 00:04:40,516 Speaker 3: started the fire, stripped and dressed out the birds, and 63 00:04:40,556 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 3: all the roasted them just to be able to have food. 64 00:04:46,916 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 2: He escaped home by enrolling in the Army, went to college, 65 00:04:50,396 --> 00:04:54,276 Speaker 2: then graduate school, then to Alabama and taught sociology at 66 00:04:54,316 --> 00:04:58,036 Speaker 2: Auburn University. One time he caught a huge cheating ring 67 00:04:58,236 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 2: going on with teachers in this department and football players, 68 00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:04,516 Speaker 2: and blew the whistle. Made the New York Times in 69 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:06,836 Speaker 2: one of the most football crazed states in the country. 70 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:08,676 Speaker 2: He went, after football. 71 00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:12,156 Speaker 3: Today's the twenty eighth day of my eighty first year. 72 00:05:12,476 --> 00:05:17,716 Speaker 3: So I'm on the old side. And six months after 73 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,796 Speaker 3: I retired, I had an encephalitis infection to the brain. 74 00:05:22,396 --> 00:05:27,436 Speaker 3: And I survived that when I was sixty six, which 75 00:05:27,476 --> 00:05:31,636 Speaker 3: is quite rare. But when I came to from it 76 00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:37,836 Speaker 3: in the hospital, I had company, but I couldn't think 77 00:05:38,076 --> 00:05:41,636 Speaker 3: of I couldn't take the words to say what I 78 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:43,516 Speaker 3: wanted to say. 79 00:05:43,636 --> 00:05:47,236 Speaker 2: He forced himself to go through the alphabet A to Z, 80 00:05:47,756 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 2: counting all the words he knew that began with each letter. 81 00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 2: He came up with one hundred and ninety six. 82 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:56,196 Speaker 3: My first conclusion was that I was essentially brain dead. 83 00:05:56,196 --> 00:06:00,396 Speaker 3: I might as well put myself down. Then after I 84 00:06:00,436 --> 00:06:02,756 Speaker 3: thought of it, I thought, well, the way I measured 85 00:06:02,796 --> 00:06:05,556 Speaker 3: it meant that I'm not completely brain dead. So I 86 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:08,396 Speaker 3: just decided to gets the suicide. 87 00:06:09,396 --> 00:06:12,956 Speaker 2: Slowly he recovered built himself back up. He was working 88 00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,596 Speaker 2: on a new paper when we spoke, an analysis of 89 00:06:15,596 --> 00:06:19,156 Speaker 2: health insurance status and mortality rates. By the way, you 90 00:06:19,196 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 2: will hear all kinds of strange noises in the background 91 00:06:21,876 --> 00:06:23,356 Speaker 2: as you listen to Gundlock talking. 92 00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:27,316 Speaker 3: Let me go turn that thing off. Okay, my wife 93 00:06:27,316 --> 00:06:30,036 Speaker 3: always leaves it unbalanced and it makes it a lot 94 00:06:30,076 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 3: of noise. And if I'm going off on tangents that 95 00:06:34,556 --> 00:06:36,476 Speaker 3: you're not interested in, but. 96 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:37,516 Speaker 1: What actually. 97 00:06:38,636 --> 00:06:40,556 Speaker 2: Some of what you're talking about now feeds into what 98 00:06:40,636 --> 00:06:42,916 Speaker 2: I want to speak to. So sure, why don't we 99 00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 2: start with the stuff that was interested me the most, 100 00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:49,716 Speaker 2: which was I read that damned on a rival paper 101 00:06:51,116 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 2: and I just thought it was fascinating and I wanted 102 00:06:56,516 --> 00:06:58,756 Speaker 2: to kind of talk to you a little bit about that, 103 00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:00,236 Speaker 2: and that'd be a good place to start. 104 00:07:00,396 --> 00:07:00,716 Speaker 3: Okay. 105 00:07:01,516 --> 00:07:03,836 Speaker 2: We talked a little about the paper, and then James 106 00:07:03,876 --> 00:07:06,996 Speaker 2: Gunlock went off on what seemed like one of his tangents, 107 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:10,556 Speaker 2: although as I found out, it wasn't really a tangent 108 00:07:10,596 --> 00:07:14,436 Speaker 2: at all. It was about the time back in the 109 00:07:14,476 --> 00:07:16,836 Speaker 2: early nineteen nineties when he got a call from his 110 00:07:16,916 --> 00:07:19,716 Speaker 2: brother his brother's daughter had run away. 111 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:22,836 Speaker 3: The police called him and ask him why he hadn't 112 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:28,236 Speaker 3: canceled the missing child. He said, well, she's not back home, 113 00:07:28,316 --> 00:07:32,156 Speaker 3: and they said, Welching's never missed school. She worked out 114 00:07:32,196 --> 00:07:34,996 Speaker 3: a system by where she was just staying with friends 115 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:41,236 Speaker 3: overnight in sequence and just avoiding going home by living 116 00:07:42,036 --> 00:07:44,076 Speaker 3: out in the world and still going to school. 117 00:07:44,996 --> 00:07:47,916 Speaker 2: Gun Luck took his niece in. She was about fourteen, 118 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:51,516 Speaker 2: so is his daughter. Now he had two teenagers under 119 00:07:51,516 --> 00:07:51,916 Speaker 2: his roof. 120 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:56,796 Speaker 3: She eventually decided that we were such good parents that 121 00:07:56,876 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 3: she found a couple of street boys had been thrown 122 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 3: out of their own homes, and we ended up taking 123 00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:02,476 Speaker 3: them in. 124 00:08:03,916 --> 00:08:06,236 Speaker 2: They were living in Montgomery then, and parts of the 125 00:08:06,276 --> 00:08:10,236 Speaker 2: city were full of gangs, the bloods, the grips, the disciples. 126 00:08:10,596 --> 00:08:12,796 Speaker 2: Word got out that the Gunlux house was a place 127 00:08:12,836 --> 00:08:13,636 Speaker 2: of refuge. 128 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:19,596 Speaker 3: One time, we had this big lizard, and the lizard 129 00:08:19,636 --> 00:08:22,636 Speaker 3: got out, so I was going around looking for it, 130 00:08:23,556 --> 00:08:26,676 Speaker 3: and I looked under the bed and there was this boy. 131 00:08:28,636 --> 00:08:31,556 Speaker 3: And I looked at him and he said, I guess 132 00:08:31,596 --> 00:08:38,236 Speaker 3: you want to know why I'm here. And he was 133 00:08:38,316 --> 00:08:42,276 Speaker 3: just kind of a temporary close eye street kid. He 134 00:08:42,476 --> 00:08:44,756 Speaker 3: was sort of staying in our house to be out 135 00:08:44,996 --> 00:08:49,836 Speaker 3: off the street and stuff without having contact with adults 136 00:08:49,876 --> 00:08:50,356 Speaker 3: in the house. 137 00:08:53,476 --> 00:08:56,356 Speaker 2: I sat in a small chair next to gunlux desk 138 00:08:56,716 --> 00:08:59,276 Speaker 2: as he talked about the kids he took in, boys 139 00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 2: and gangs, boys living off the street, who stole car 140 00:09:02,236 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 2: radios to stay alive and drank cheap liquor to stay 141 00:09:04,756 --> 00:09:07,636 Speaker 2: warm at night. What is it about you do you 142 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:10,596 Speaker 2: think that led you to take in so many of 143 00:09:10,596 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 2: these kids. 144 00:09:11,596 --> 00:09:15,396 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was ruined in the time that 145 00:09:15,476 --> 00:09:20,676 Speaker 3: our parents left us alone on the farm. That I 146 00:09:20,796 --> 00:09:27,836 Speaker 3: can really relate to kids not having parental support and 147 00:09:28,076 --> 00:09:30,596 Speaker 3: subsistence support and other kinds of things. 148 00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 2: One of the kids they took in came from a 149 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 2: little town called Valley in the northern part of the state, 150 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:41,396 Speaker 2: an old textile town. He was seventeen. He was involved 151 00:09:41,476 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 2: in one of Montgomery's many gangs, but he was looking 152 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:48,236 Speaker 2: for a way out. His name was Brandon Young. How 153 00:09:48,276 --> 00:09:49,636 Speaker 2: long did Brandon live with you? 154 00:09:52,836 --> 00:09:54,636 Speaker 3: Probably only about six months. 155 00:09:54,836 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you got to know him, well, oh yeah, 156 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:05,236 Speaker 1: at first he was very you know, reserved and suspicious 157 00:10:05,276 --> 00:10:06,476 Speaker 1: and other things. 158 00:10:06,516 --> 00:10:08,556 Speaker 3: But you know, as we got to know him and 159 00:10:08,636 --> 00:10:11,276 Speaker 3: stuff opened up and we talked about time she. 160 00:10:12,116 --> 00:10:15,396 Speaker 2: And then James Gunlock started talking again about the paper 161 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:50,956 Speaker 2: he wrote with Penealty Hanky damned upon arrival. The number 162 00:10:50,956 --> 00:10:54,396 Speaker 2: of homicides in any community is a combination of two 163 00:10:54,476 --> 00:10:58,796 Speaker 2: completely unrelated variables. The number of people victimized by acts 164 00:10:58,836 --> 00:11:01,876 Speaker 2: of violence minus how good a job the medical system 165 00:11:01,956 --> 00:11:05,236 Speaker 2: does at saving the lives of those victims. And a 166 00:11:05,276 --> 00:11:07,996 Speaker 2: lot of times, what a murder rate really tells you 167 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:11,036 Speaker 2: is how good you're doctors are, and not how safe 168 00:11:11,036 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 2: your streets are. This is the idea we explored in 169 00:11:14,276 --> 00:11:18,716 Speaker 2: the previous episode. But there's a twist on that observation, 170 00:11:19,156 --> 00:11:22,716 Speaker 2: a really important twist which the people who treat gunshots 171 00:11:22,756 --> 00:11:25,876 Speaker 2: for a living have known about for a long time. 172 00:11:26,836 --> 00:11:30,116 Speaker 2: So I'm assuming over the course of your career you 173 00:11:30,196 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 2: have treated innumerable gunshot wounds. 174 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 4: Unfortunately true. 175 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:40,236 Speaker 2: This is doctor Babach Serrani. He's a trauma surgeon at 176 00:11:40,276 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 2: George Washington University Hospital in Washington, d C. If you 177 00:11:44,356 --> 00:11:46,916 Speaker 2: get seriously injured by a bullet, you get taken to 178 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 2: a trauma center, more specifically a Level one trauma center, 179 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:54,596 Speaker 2: which is a self contained, twenty four hour facility equipped 180 00:11:54,596 --> 00:12:01,316 Speaker 2: with everything necessary to treat traumatic injury, general surgeons, orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, 181 00:12:01,316 --> 00:12:06,116 Speaker 2: plastic surgeons, and the caesiologists, er docs, radiologists, nurses with 182 00:12:06,156 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 2: the right qualifications on and on. Trauma centers cost hundreds 183 00:12:11,116 --> 00:12:14,596 Speaker 2: of millions of dollars to build and operate. They're relatively rare. 184 00:12:14,956 --> 00:12:18,876 Speaker 2: DC has thirteen hospitals, but only four level ones. One 185 00:12:18,916 --> 00:12:22,356 Speaker 2: of those is at George Washington. Serrani is the chief 186 00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 2: trauma sursion there. Do you know how many, roughly. 187 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 4: Speaking, Oh, my goodness, I would think probably by now 188 00:12:32,276 --> 00:12:34,636 Speaker 4: the number of gunshrare victims I've seen personally. I've been 189 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:39,116 Speaker 4: in practice since two thousand and five, I would venture 190 00:12:39,316 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 4: miss Bladwell five hundred plus. 191 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:41,996 Speaker 3: Wow. 192 00:12:42,556 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you weren't even there during DC's darkest years. 193 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:48,036 Speaker 4: Correct, yeah, correct. 194 00:12:48,676 --> 00:12:52,716 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to Serrani about time because trauma 195 00:12:52,716 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 2: sursions are obsessed with time. There's a phrase common in 196 00:12:56,396 --> 00:12:59,956 Speaker 2: their world, the golden hour. If you get shot, they 197 00:12:59,996 --> 00:13:02,396 Speaker 2: really want to have you on the operating table as 198 00:13:02,436 --> 00:13:05,796 Speaker 2: soon as possible. That's why we pull over for ambulances. 199 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:09,556 Speaker 2: Talk a little to me about time. You said, tends 200 00:13:09,556 --> 00:13:11,116 Speaker 2: to get there within ten minutes, and you tend to 201 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:13,996 Speaker 2: get to the trauma center between twenty and forty five. 202 00:13:14,876 --> 00:13:18,036 Speaker 2: What's the difference between twenty and forty five. What happens 203 00:13:18,076 --> 00:13:21,516 Speaker 2: in that extra period of time that would diminish someone's 204 00:13:21,596 --> 00:13:22,476 Speaker 2: chances of survival? 205 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:25,396 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it depends on where the injury is. 206 00:13:25,476 --> 00:13:27,236 Speaker 4: You know, if you've been injured in the abdomen and 207 00:13:27,236 --> 00:13:29,956 Speaker 4: it hits your intestine, honestly, nothing will happen between twenty 208 00:13:29,996 --> 00:13:32,836 Speaker 4: and forty five minutes. That's plenty of time. But if 209 00:13:32,836 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 4: you're bleeding, specifically speaking, if you're bleeding, then every minute 210 00:13:36,836 --> 00:13:39,276 Speaker 4: that goes by is you know, the value of that 211 00:13:39,436 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 4: is plutonium. 212 00:13:41,116 --> 00:13:43,756 Speaker 2: Like, for example, if you take a bullet to your liver, 213 00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 2: the liver is a maze of blood vessels. 214 00:13:47,476 --> 00:13:51,636 Speaker 4: Making the liver, of all things, stop bleeding is exceedingly difficult. 215 00:13:51,956 --> 00:13:53,916 Speaker 4: You know, kidney, I can take it out, you have 216 00:13:53,956 --> 00:13:56,396 Speaker 4: two kidneys, spleen, I can take it out. You don't 217 00:13:56,396 --> 00:13:58,636 Speaker 4: need a spleen. I cannot take out your liver that 218 00:13:58,716 --> 00:14:01,436 Speaker 4: you need a liver to live, and so I'm obligated 219 00:14:01,476 --> 00:14:03,636 Speaker 4: to try to repair it while it just continues to bleed. 220 00:14:04,276 --> 00:14:07,316 Speaker 2: When we spoke, Surrouni had just treated someone who had 221 00:14:07,316 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 2: taken a rifle shot to the liver. 222 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:11,956 Speaker 4: The reason he's alive, and I will take some credit 223 00:14:11,996 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 4: at George Washington, but honestly, one of the bigger reasons 224 00:14:14,356 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 4: he's alive is the paramedics. They completely scooped and ran 225 00:14:18,036 --> 00:14:20,556 Speaker 4: with this guy. I think their entire scene time was 226 00:14:20,676 --> 00:14:24,116 Speaker 4: like ten or twelve minutes, and they just high tailed 227 00:14:24,116 --> 00:14:26,156 Speaker 4: it to the trauma center. When he showed up on 228 00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:29,756 Speaker 4: our doorstep. You figure by now it's been twenty twenty 229 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:32,276 Speaker 4: five minutes of the most from the moment of wounding 230 00:14:32,396 --> 00:14:37,356 Speaker 4: to arrival to the trauma center. He was probably five 231 00:14:37,396 --> 00:14:39,676 Speaker 4: to ten minutes away from dying. He was the extreme 232 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:40,556 Speaker 4: end stages of. 233 00:14:40,516 --> 00:14:44,236 Speaker 2: Shock or what about a bullet to the lungs? 234 00:14:44,636 --> 00:14:46,796 Speaker 4: A paramedic can actually treat a gunshot win to the lung. 235 00:14:46,796 --> 00:14:48,636 Speaker 4: They can temporize that person very nicely. 236 00:14:48,996 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 1: So do that. 237 00:14:49,556 --> 00:14:52,596 Speaker 2: How do you temporize someone who's had a gunshot win 238 00:14:52,676 --> 00:14:53,156 Speaker 2: to the lung? 239 00:14:53,836 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 4: So, when you have a gunshot to the lung, assuming 240 00:14:56,276 --> 00:14:58,556 Speaker 4: it has not hit a blood vessel, assuming you're not bleeding, 241 00:14:58,596 --> 00:15:00,636 Speaker 4: all you have is a gunshot to the lung, which 242 00:15:00,636 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 4: is I believe or not really really common. The problem 243 00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:08,036 Speaker 4: is you have air leaking from your lung and that 244 00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 4: air is accumul inside the chest. As that air collects 245 00:15:12,236 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 4: more and more inside the chest because it's leaking out 246 00:15:13,916 --> 00:15:16,076 Speaker 4: of lung, it'll create a lot of pressure in the 247 00:15:16,156 --> 00:15:19,636 Speaker 4: chest and it'll cause it'll alter the blood flow to 248 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:23,076 Speaker 4: your body. So the paramedic can simply put a needle 249 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:25,436 Speaker 4: inside your chest, believe it or not, just like literally 250 00:15:25,476 --> 00:15:27,636 Speaker 4: in sort of needle through your skin into your chest 251 00:15:28,076 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 4: and it's like popping a balloon. It'll allow that air 252 00:15:30,636 --> 00:15:33,596 Speaker 4: that's accumulating to decompress and that's all you have to do. 253 00:15:34,276 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 4: That will buy the person then tens of minutes if 254 00:15:38,036 --> 00:15:41,076 Speaker 4: not more, to get to the trauma center to allow 255 00:15:41,156 --> 00:15:44,356 Speaker 4: us to then fix the issue at hand. But that's 256 00:15:44,396 --> 00:15:45,276 Speaker 4: a paramedic. 257 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:50,156 Speaker 2: Skill absince that intervention that would be a fatal event. Correct, 258 00:15:50,836 --> 00:15:53,516 Speaker 2: Just to deling on this time question for a moment. 259 00:15:53,916 --> 00:15:56,876 Speaker 2: So if I have a gunshot wound to the chest 260 00:15:56,916 --> 00:16:00,596 Speaker 2: and I have exactly happening to me what you just described, 261 00:16:01,116 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 2: how much time do I have without an AMS's intervention? 262 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:04,556 Speaker 2: Half an hour? 263 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:06,556 Speaker 4: Yeah, probably about half an hour or so, I mean 264 00:16:06,556 --> 00:16:08,356 Speaker 4: plus minus, But yes, I would think. 265 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:13,796 Speaker 2: So, So let's think through the logic of this, a 266 00:16:13,836 --> 00:16:17,636 Speaker 2: city or country's homicide rate is heavily dependent on how 267 00:16:17,676 --> 00:16:22,236 Speaker 2: good its medical system is at treating gunshot ones. And 268 00:16:22,276 --> 00:16:25,316 Speaker 2: what determines how good a medical system is a treating 269 00:16:25,316 --> 00:16:28,796 Speaker 2: gunshot ones, at least in part, it's how quickly a 270 00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:33,356 Speaker 2: gunshot victim can get to a Level one trauma center. Okay, 271 00:16:33,516 --> 00:16:37,356 Speaker 2: second question, and in this case let's use Chicago as 272 00:16:37,396 --> 00:16:42,796 Speaker 2: our example, classic big American city. Chicago absolutely confirms the 273 00:16:42,796 --> 00:16:46,956 Speaker 2: theory that proximity to a trauma center matters. According to 274 00:16:46,996 --> 00:16:49,076 Speaker 2: a big study done a couple years ago by the 275 00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:52,916 Speaker 2: epidemiologist Marie Crandall, if you live more than five miles 276 00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 2: from a Level one trauma center in Chicago, you had 277 00:16:55,676 --> 00:16:58,956 Speaker 2: a thirty five percent higher chance of dying from your 278 00:16:58,996 --> 00:17:02,116 Speaker 2: wounds than if you were shot less than five miles 279 00:17:02,156 --> 00:17:06,516 Speaker 2: from a level one. So here's the second question. What 280 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 2: determines how quickly you get too trauma center in Chicago? 281 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:14,076 Speaker 2: Is it a random fact like whether there's an ambulance 282 00:17:14,116 --> 00:17:16,556 Speaker 2: nearby when you get shot, or how bad the traffic 283 00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:19,156 Speaker 2: is that day on the way to the hospital, or 284 00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 2: is there a pattern to who lives within five miles 285 00:17:22,836 --> 00:17:26,356 Speaker 2: of a level one, and who doesn't. A physician at 286 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:30,156 Speaker 2: the University of Chicago named Elizabeth Tongue set out to 287 00:17:30,196 --> 00:17:34,116 Speaker 2: answer that question a few years ago, what do you 288 00:17:34,116 --> 00:17:35,116 Speaker 2: find in Chicago? 289 00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:39,156 Speaker 5: And so we found that black majority census tracks were 290 00:17:39,156 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 5: disproportionately in these trauma deserts. 291 00:17:41,716 --> 00:17:44,356 Speaker 2: A trauma desert, by the way, is what er docs 292 00:17:44,396 --> 00:17:47,036 Speaker 2: call places that are a long way from a level one. 293 00:17:47,796 --> 00:17:55,476 Speaker 5: That racial disparity was essentially very large, approximately a sevenfold 294 00:17:55,556 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 5: increase on the South Side in black communities. 295 00:17:59,116 --> 00:18:02,476 Speaker 2: Wait to explain the sevenfold the racial disparity between what 296 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 2: and what is sevenfold higher. 297 00:18:04,156 --> 00:18:07,676 Speaker 5: The racial disparity between black majority census tracks and white 298 00:18:07,676 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 5: majority census tracks is an x sevenfold sevenfold wow. 299 00:18:15,476 --> 00:18:18,396 Speaker 2: For a period of thirty years between nineteen ninety one 300 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 2: and twenty eighteen, the south side of Chicago didn't even 301 00:18:22,476 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 2: have a Level one trauma center. So if you got 302 00:18:25,196 --> 00:18:27,196 Speaker 2: shot on the south Side, and by the way, the 303 00:18:27,236 --> 00:18:29,876 Speaker 2: south Side is the area of Chicago where you're most 304 00:18:29,956 --> 00:18:32,756 Speaker 2: likely to get shot, the ambulance had to take you 305 00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:36,236 Speaker 2: all the way across the city uptown to Northwestern or 306 00:18:36,276 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 2: Cook County or west to advocate Christ Medical Center miles away. Now, 307 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 2: why did the South Side go so long without a 308 00:18:44,596 --> 00:18:48,156 Speaker 2: trauma center because it makes no sense for any hospital 309 00:18:48,356 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 2: to open one on the south Side. Treating gunshot wounds 310 00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:57,156 Speaker 2: serious ones is incredibly expensive, and the typical gunshot victim 311 00:18:57,196 --> 00:19:00,076 Speaker 2: in Chicago is a young black man from a poor neighborhood, 312 00:19:00,156 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 2: and young black men living in poor neighborhoods in Chicago 313 00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:07,076 Speaker 2: typically don't have health insurance or they're on Medicaid, which 314 00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:11,636 Speaker 2: reimburses at a fraction of what private insurance does. The 315 00:19:11,676 --> 00:19:16,036 Speaker 2: euphemism used in the healthcare world is payer mix, which 316 00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:18,316 Speaker 2: refers to how many of your patients come to you 317 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:22,196 Speaker 2: blessed with private coverage. Opening a trauma center in a 318 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:27,396 Speaker 2: bad neighborhood messes with your payer mix deeply, which is 319 00:19:27,436 --> 00:19:31,236 Speaker 2: a paradox. Right. The point of a trauma center is 320 00:19:31,276 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 2: to be closest to the places where people are getting shot. 321 00:19:34,356 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 2: But if you put your trauma center close to the 322 00:19:36,556 --> 00:19:39,836 Speaker 2: places where people get shot, your payer mix will go 323 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:43,076 Speaker 2: to hell in a handbasket and you won't be able 324 00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:46,476 Speaker 2: to afford to run your trauma center. So you put 325 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 2: your trauma center as far away as possible from the 326 00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:54,516 Speaker 2: people who most need your trauma center. As I said, 327 00:19:54,636 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 2: at the very beginning of this series, the way America 328 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:07,836 Speaker 2: deals with gun violence is bonkers. We have a misaligned 329 00:20:07,836 --> 00:20:11,076 Speaker 2: healthcare system. Yeah, what's the simplest way to realign it. 330 00:20:11,836 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 5: I mean, I think the simplest way to realign it 331 00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:15,596 Speaker 5: is nationalized healthcare. 332 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:19,156 Speaker 2: What she's saying is that if everyone has the same 333 00:20:19,196 --> 00:20:22,916 Speaker 2: insurance like they do in Canada or Europe, then hospitals 334 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:25,996 Speaker 2: don't have to worry about payamics. You can put your 335 00:20:26,036 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 2: trauma center where your trauma center makes the most sense 336 00:20:28,956 --> 00:20:31,116 Speaker 2: and not worry about how much your patients will pay you. 337 00:20:32,116 --> 00:20:36,916 Speaker 2: It's funny you say this. So I'm not someone in 338 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,596 Speaker 2: the medical world. Yeah, but I'm certainly sort of familiar 339 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:43,676 Speaker 2: with arguments around national health care. It had never occurred 340 00:20:43,716 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 2: to me until just now listening to you that if 341 00:20:47,156 --> 00:20:49,996 Speaker 2: one of the consequences of national health insurance is that 342 00:20:50,116 --> 00:20:54,156 Speaker 2: hospitals would look different, would do different things, and would 343 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 2: be in different places. 344 00:20:56,276 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, the idea would be that under a 345 00:20:59,036 --> 00:21:01,396 Speaker 5: nationalized healthcare system, we could be a little bit more 346 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 5: thought out in the planning of health care. We're essentially 347 00:21:04,556 --> 00:21:07,076 Speaker 5: taking the market forces out of that and we're saying, 348 00:21:07,356 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 5: let's plan this that it should be planned, and let's incentivate. 349 00:21:12,436 --> 00:21:17,156 Speaker 5: Let's incentivize hospitals appropriately to essentially be able to care 350 00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:19,116 Speaker 5: for their patients at the level of care they need 351 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:19,596 Speaker 5: to be cared. 352 00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:23,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, or let's not penalize people who want to serve 353 00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:26,756 Speaker 2: the sickest population exactly, which is what we're talking about. 354 00:21:26,916 --> 00:21:30,556 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. Hospitals aren't even just not getting incentivized, they're 355 00:21:30,556 --> 00:21:34,556 Speaker 5: actually getting penalized. And so that's the problem in terms 356 00:21:34,596 --> 00:21:36,716 Speaker 5: of our healthcare financing system. 357 00:21:36,956 --> 00:21:40,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is. Yeah, such a kind of like, 358 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:45,316 Speaker 2: it's so weird that you would penalize somebody for essentially 359 00:21:45,356 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 2: for doing the job in the best way. 360 00:21:48,396 --> 00:21:48,556 Speaker 4: Right. 361 00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:52,836 Speaker 2: The whole reason people go into medicine is to help 362 00:21:52,916 --> 00:21:57,036 Speaker 2: the sickest people. Absolutely, but the system is set up 363 00:21:57,116 --> 00:22:01,396 Speaker 2: such that if doctors do what they went into medicine 364 00:22:01,436 --> 00:22:04,916 Speaker 2: to do, the institutions they work for are penalized. 365 00:22:05,756 --> 00:22:09,676 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and so they're actually has been a 366 00:22:09,676 --> 00:22:12,676 Speaker 5: lot written recently about the moral injury of our healthcare 367 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:16,476 Speaker 5: financing system and how it really does make a lot 368 00:22:16,476 --> 00:22:21,756 Speaker 5: of healthcare workers feel incredibly demoralized at the end of 369 00:22:21,796 --> 00:22:26,276 Speaker 5: the day. And you know, I mean, that's just that's 370 00:22:26,316 --> 00:22:27,196 Speaker 5: not good for anyone. 371 00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 2: Final question, and here we come to the twist that 372 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:36,516 Speaker 2: the people who treat gunshot wounds think about all the time. Ay, 373 00:22:37,356 --> 00:22:40,036 Speaker 2: it really matters how close you are to a trauma center. 374 00:22:40,516 --> 00:22:43,916 Speaker 2: B In a place like Chicago, black people for years 375 00:22:44,036 --> 00:22:47,716 Speaker 2: were really, really far from a trauma center. See. So, 376 00:22:47,796 --> 00:22:49,996 Speaker 2: how much of the reason that black people have such 377 00:22:49,996 --> 00:22:52,636 Speaker 2: a high homicide rate is just a function of the 378 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 2: fact that we're not doing a terribly good job of 379 00:22:55,356 --> 00:22:58,756 Speaker 2: saving the lives of black people after they've been shot. 380 00:23:00,356 --> 00:23:04,276 Speaker 2: It's an uncomfortable question, and one of the very first 381 00:23:04,276 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 2: scholars to venture down this path were Penelope Hanky and 382 00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:13,156 Speaker 2: James Gundlock in the Journal of Criminal Justice, Volume twenty three, 383 00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 2: number four, nineteen ninety five, Damned upon arrival. The idea 384 00:23:20,836 --> 00:23:25,716 Speaker 2: behind the paper was ingenious. A sociologist at Auburn named 385 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:30,036 Speaker 2: Alan Shields had assembled a database of homicide offenders from 386 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:34,236 Speaker 2: Tutwiler Prison, the all women's prison just north of Montgomery. 387 00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:39,316 Speaker 2: Not an especially nice place. Tutwiler's primary distinction was that 388 00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:41,916 Speaker 2: it was once named to the ten Worst Prisons in 389 00:23:41,996 --> 00:23:45,916 Speaker 2: America list. So Gundlock and Hankey looked at all the 390 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:50,916 Speaker 2: murderers in Tutwiler and divided them by race. First, the 391 00:23:50,956 --> 00:23:55,316 Speaker 2: white murders. There were forty seven people victimized by white 392 00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 2: women who died instantly no amount of medical attention would 393 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:02,476 Speaker 2: have saved them head shots, bulled to the heart, and 394 00:24:02,556 --> 00:24:05,996 Speaker 2: a roughly equal number who were dead on arrival those 395 00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:09,316 Speaker 2: who could at least theoretically have lived if they had 396 00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:13,876 Speaker 2: gotten medical attention sooner. The ratio of killed instantly to 397 00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:18,596 Speaker 2: dead on arrival was essentially one to one. Then Gundluck 398 00:24:18,756 --> 00:24:22,556 Speaker 2: and Hankey looked at the victims of black murderers. What 399 00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 2: was their ratio? It wasn't one to one. It was 400 00:24:26,356 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 2: way out of whack. There were many, many more victims 401 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:31,716 Speaker 2: who died on the way to the hospital, and also 402 00:24:32,036 --> 00:24:35,316 Speaker 2: a far higher percentage who died at some point after 403 00:24:35,356 --> 00:24:39,236 Speaker 2: being admitted. What the studies suggested was that a big 404 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,556 Speaker 2: chunk of the difference in homicide rates between blacks and 405 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:45,436 Speaker 2: whites in Alabama had to do with the quality of 406 00:24:45,476 --> 00:24:49,756 Speaker 2: healthcare given to their victims, not the violent tendencies of 407 00:24:49,836 --> 00:24:56,716 Speaker 2: the people who attacked them. Here's the key conclusion. Although 408 00:24:56,756 --> 00:24:59,676 Speaker 2: this is by no means a definitive study of the issue, 409 00:24:59,836 --> 00:25:03,836 Speaker 2: the strength of the findings is striking. The Tutwiler prison 410 00:25:03,916 --> 00:25:08,436 Speaker 2: data suggested that almost one fourth of the African American 411 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:11,556 Speaker 2: female killer might not have been in prison for the 412 00:25:11,636 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 2: killing had their victims received the same transportation and medical 413 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:22,476 Speaker 2: care as their Caucasian counterparts. The study covered four hundred 414 00:25:22,476 --> 00:25:26,476 Speaker 2: and sixty eight African American murderers at Tutwiler, So that's 415 00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:30,116 Speaker 2: one hundred and thirteen people who wouldn't have been convicted 416 00:25:30,156 --> 00:25:33,396 Speaker 2: for homicide if their victims had received the same medical 417 00:25:33,396 --> 00:25:37,516 Speaker 2: attention as white people. They had been convicted on lesser 418 00:25:37,596 --> 00:25:42,356 Speaker 2: charges like aggravated assault, they wouldn't be murderers. And at 419 00:25:42,396 --> 00:25:44,716 Speaker 2: the very end of the paper, Gunblock and Hankey give 420 00:25:44,796 --> 00:25:47,236 Speaker 2: us a little hint of what they think was going 421 00:25:47,276 --> 00:25:52,636 Speaker 2: on in Alabama. One anecdote related by a female inmate 422 00:25:52,716 --> 00:25:56,716 Speaker 2: at Tutwiller Prison is particularly revealing. I'm reading from the 423 00:25:56,756 --> 00:26:00,596 Speaker 2: final paragraph of the study. Having seriously wounded a male 424 00:26:00,676 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 2: in an argument, she drove him to the doctor's house. 425 00:26:04,076 --> 00:26:06,756 Speaker 2: At that time, she was advised by the maid that 426 00:26:06,836 --> 00:26:09,756 Speaker 2: the doctor was having dinner and could not be disturbed. 427 00:26:10,596 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 2: The man died. The assailant and victim were African American, 428 00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:21,236 Speaker 2: the doctor was Caucasian. Hanke and Gunluck presented an early 429 00:26:21,356 --> 00:26:24,436 Speaker 2: version of their paper at the American Society of Criminology 430 00:26:24,476 --> 00:26:27,116 Speaker 2: meeting in Phoenix in the summer of nineteen ninety three, 431 00:26:27,756 --> 00:26:30,636 Speaker 2: and while Gunluck was putting the finishing touches on the paper, 432 00:26:31,316 --> 00:26:51,596 Speaker 2: Brandon Young moved into his house in Montgomery. 433 00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:55,436 Speaker 3: He was really a good guy. He was really smart, 434 00:26:58,236 --> 00:27:04,596 Speaker 3: barely educated. Used a lot of words a bit wrong 435 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:08,956 Speaker 3: definition wise, because he had he was sort of working, 436 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 3: I'm building his own vocabulary and that kind of stuff 437 00:27:12,076 --> 00:27:16,956 Speaker 3: without the direction of teachers and such. He was very likable. 438 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:21,436 Speaker 3: He was very much for defending the down and out 439 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:28,676 Speaker 3: and that kind of kind of thing. He was. He 440 00:27:28,716 --> 00:27:33,756 Speaker 3: was a very likable and even from an adults perspective, 441 00:27:33,916 --> 00:27:36,876 Speaker 3: respectable person, even though he was a street gangster. 442 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:40,836 Speaker 2: How did Brandon me before he before he moved in 443 00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:42,956 Speaker 2: with you? How did he survive on the streets? 444 00:27:44,276 --> 00:27:47,636 Speaker 3: Never really told us. I don't know whether he was 445 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:51,836 Speaker 3: involved with selling drugs or not. If he was doing that, 446 00:27:51,876 --> 00:28:00,716 Speaker 3: he wouldn't have told me. But he he never asked 447 00:28:00,716 --> 00:28:06,676 Speaker 3: for money. He seemed he seemed to kind of know 448 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:12,236 Speaker 3: when we were kind of working toward pushing him to 449 00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:14,476 Speaker 3: go ahead and work toward be where we could get 450 00:28:14,516 --> 00:28:16,516 Speaker 3: him lined up where he could go to college and 451 00:28:16,516 --> 00:28:19,756 Speaker 3: stuff before he was killed. But obviously that ended that 452 00:28:22,236 --> 00:28:28,076 Speaker 3: he passed a ged uh that's the high school diploma 453 00:28:28,156 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 3: equital time, so you know, and he actually did absolutely 454 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,316 Speaker 3: no studying for it or any of that other kind 455 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:38,436 Speaker 3: of stuff, and he just went in and took it 456 00:28:38,516 --> 00:28:40,876 Speaker 3: and he plashed it with fine colors. You know. He 457 00:28:40,996 --> 00:28:48,996 Speaker 3: was smart. He knew stuff, and I'm not sure how 458 00:28:49,036 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 3: he picked up some of it stuff, but he would 459 00:28:52,876 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 3: regularly read books. And if we could have gotten me 460 00:28:57,796 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 3: on a route going through college and stuff, he would 461 00:29:01,436 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 3: have turned into a very solid person. I'm I'm very 462 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:12,636 Speaker 3: sure he he had a strong streak aning of caring 463 00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:28,516 Speaker 3: for people. Noah, I thought about him a lot back then, 464 00:29:28,636 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 3: but I haven't lately, said. 465 00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:35,076 Speaker 2: Brendan wanted out of the gang world, so he went 466 00:29:35,116 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 2: to stay at a log cabin the Gunlocks owned forty 467 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:40,836 Speaker 2: five minutes or so north of Montgomery in the town 468 00:29:40,876 --> 00:29:44,196 Speaker 2: of Nota Saga in Macon County. They thought he'd be 469 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:47,556 Speaker 2: safe there, and that's where he was with three of 470 00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:49,996 Speaker 2: the other teenagers the gun Lucks had taken in on 471 00:29:50,076 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 2: the night of August twenty third, nineteen ninety four. It 472 00:29:54,116 --> 00:29:58,196 Speaker 2: was a few hours after midnight. Brendan heard a noise outside. 473 00:29:58,436 --> 00:29:59,196 Speaker 2: He went to check. 474 00:30:00,396 --> 00:30:05,236 Speaker 3: He put the other kids in a place that thing 475 00:30:05,276 --> 00:30:08,556 Speaker 3: would be safe. There's a log house that has a 476 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:13,916 Speaker 3: suck up floor, which was the bedroom, and he had them, 477 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:17,956 Speaker 3: and the bedroom area essentially has no windows or other 478 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:20,356 Speaker 3: such things because the roof of the house is a 479 00:30:20,356 --> 00:30:25,596 Speaker 3: ceiling in the bedroom area. And he got them upstairs 480 00:30:25,916 --> 00:30:29,196 Speaker 3: and told them to get under the bed. When he 481 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:32,356 Speaker 3: first found out what was going on, and he stayed 482 00:30:32,436 --> 00:30:35,276 Speaker 3: downstairs to try to figure out what he could do 483 00:30:35,356 --> 00:30:36,356 Speaker 3: and that kind of stuff. 484 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:40,956 Speaker 2: There were four people waiting outside. They had a shotgun. 485 00:30:41,596 --> 00:30:51,836 Speaker 2: They saw Brandon through the window an open fire. I'm 486 00:30:51,836 --> 00:30:53,676 Speaker 2: reading now from the account of the crime a few 487 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:59,036 Speaker 2: days later in the Montgomery Advertiser. Neither Brandon's friends nor 488 00:30:59,076 --> 00:31:01,756 Speaker 2: the adults who cared for him can give a specific 489 00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:04,396 Speaker 2: reason for his slaying. They say that some of the 490 00:31:04,436 --> 00:31:07,836 Speaker 2: suspects used to be his friends, even fellow gang members. 491 00:31:08,356 --> 00:31:10,676 Speaker 2: Maybe they were angree He was trying to free himself 492 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:14,356 Speaker 2: from them, to make a better life for himself. His 493 00:31:14,476 --> 00:31:18,316 Speaker 2: friends looked up to him. We used to say that 494 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,996 Speaker 2: he was Peter Pan and they were the lost Boys, 495 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:24,236 Speaker 2: said his fifteen year old girlfriend, who asked not to 496 00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:29,396 Speaker 2: be named for her own safety. Brandon was everybody's hero. 497 00:31:30,276 --> 00:31:33,636 Speaker 2: He was my hero. Brandon was in love with the 498 00:31:33,676 --> 00:31:38,636 Speaker 2: words respect and honor. He didn't do dry bys because 499 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:41,876 Speaker 2: he said, if you want to fight, fight like a man. 500 00:31:43,276 --> 00:31:46,516 Speaker 2: In an interview this week before Thursday's arrest, the fifteen 501 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:49,276 Speaker 2: year old girlfriend was guarded when she talked about the Knight. 502 00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 2: Brandon died fraile and blue eyed. Her bright red nail 503 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:57,356 Speaker 2: polished chipped. She wore a gold chain with a heart 504 00:31:57,396 --> 00:32:01,356 Speaker 2: shaped locket and a boy's ring. While everyone else had lunch, 505 00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:05,596 Speaker 2: she sipped a coke and smoked cigarettes. We were going 506 00:32:05,636 --> 00:32:08,316 Speaker 2: to go to Auburn, she said. We were going to 507 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:13,396 Speaker 2: get married. So Gunlock goes back and adds a paragraph 508 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:16,716 Speaker 2: to their article. Not a changed the main body of 509 00:32:16,716 --> 00:32:20,476 Speaker 2: the text, because Brandon Young wasn't a female inmate at 510 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,796 Speaker 2: Tutwater Prison. So it was a footnote, because a footnote 511 00:32:25,156 --> 00:32:27,516 Speaker 2: is where you put things that don't quite fit but 512 00:32:27,596 --> 00:32:32,596 Speaker 2: are still important to the story. Wait, so take me 513 00:32:32,636 --> 00:32:35,716 Speaker 2: back to that night, so you're it's it's in the 514 00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,156 Speaker 2: wee hours of the morning. You're in Montgomery and you 515 00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:42,076 Speaker 2: get a phone call. Yeah, it was one of the 516 00:32:42,116 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 2: kids in the house, and so you jumped in your car, 517 00:32:45,836 --> 00:32:48,316 Speaker 2: jumped in the car, broke the space limit. 518 00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 3: Got there. I usually break the space limit, but it 519 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:54,476 Speaker 3: broke it more when I was going there, and I 520 00:32:54,516 --> 00:32:56,436 Speaker 3: got there before the ambulance did. 521 00:32:57,556 --> 00:33:01,156 Speaker 2: He was coming from Montgomery over forty miles away. The 522 00:33:01,196 --> 00:33:06,756 Speaker 2: ambulance was coming from Tuskegee six miles away. He got 523 00:33:06,756 --> 00:33:12,196 Speaker 2: there before the ambulance. The ambulance guy shows up, and 524 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:14,956 Speaker 2: did you confront him about why it took so long? 525 00:33:15,396 --> 00:33:20,316 Speaker 3: I wasn't in any mood for confronting or other such things. 526 00:33:21,356 --> 00:33:24,876 Speaker 2: He just asked the ambulance driver simply, where have you been? 527 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:28,556 Speaker 2: And the ambulance driver said, most of the calls out 528 00:33:28,596 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: here are for blacks. We didn't know Brandon was white. 529 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 3: What he was trying to do when he was telling 530 00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:41,676 Speaker 3: me about this was trying to tell me how to 531 00:33:41,716 --> 00:33:47,276 Speaker 3: behave as a white guy in Alabama. You let him 532 00:33:47,316 --> 00:33:49,596 Speaker 3: know when you're asking for services, if you're. 533 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 4: Quiet, it's. 534 00:33:53,836 --> 00:34:00,996 Speaker 3: It's just, you know, the racism is so deep and 535 00:34:01,116 --> 00:34:07,036 Speaker 3: pervasive that there's all kinds of subtle not really you know, 536 00:34:07,396 --> 00:34:13,556 Speaker 3: taught the kids, but not really talk about kinds of things. 537 00:34:14,036 --> 00:34:16,436 Speaker 3: And since I didn't grow up in Alabama, I didn't 538 00:34:16,516 --> 00:34:17,236 Speaker 3: have that training. 539 00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:20,036 Speaker 1: Yeah. 540 00:34:20,116 --> 00:34:26,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, did you when he said that, do you remember 541 00:34:26,756 --> 00:34:27,676 Speaker 2: how you reacted? 542 00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:36,116 Speaker 3: I don't remember. I was just I was just kind 543 00:34:36,156 --> 00:34:41,396 Speaker 3: of astonished and down at h and you know, they 544 00:34:41,436 --> 00:34:43,956 Speaker 3: were still in the process of taking the body it way, 545 00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:47,916 Speaker 3: so it wasn't It wasn't kind of thing where there 546 00:34:47,996 --> 00:34:53,076 Speaker 3: was a lot of time to do things and think 547 00:34:53,116 --> 00:34:55,716 Speaker 3: about it. But he was just trying to pass on 548 00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:58,276 Speaker 3: to me the kind of information I should have to 549 00:34:58,316 --> 00:35:01,636 Speaker 3: survive as a white guy at the benefit of racism 550 00:35:01,716 --> 00:35:02,396 Speaker 3: in Alabama. 551 00:35:03,156 --> 00:35:05,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he was. 552 00:35:06,276 --> 00:35:06,676 Speaker 3: He was. 553 00:35:07,876 --> 00:35:12,196 Speaker 2: He wasn't apologetic or indignity was He was just kind. 554 00:35:12,036 --> 00:35:15,636 Speaker 3: Of trying to be helpful, trying to be help trying 555 00:35:15,676 --> 00:35:17,156 Speaker 3: to teach me what I should have known. 556 00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:26,436 Speaker 2: Yeah. Gunduck called his footnote a dedication to Brendan Young. 557 00:35:27,476 --> 00:35:28,636 Speaker 2: I wanted to hear him read it. 558 00:35:30,436 --> 00:35:34,116 Speaker 3: At three or two am on September the twenty third, 559 00:35:34,236 --> 00:35:38,476 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety four, a little over a month after doctor 560 00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:41,876 Speaker 3: HANKI and I submitted this article to the Journal of 561 00:35:41,956 --> 00:35:47,716 Speaker 3: Criminal Justice. A death following the pattern described in this article. 562 00:35:47,876 --> 00:35:53,356 Speaker 3: Little Stuckholm Jay Brandon, young age seventeen, was shot in 563 00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:56,556 Speaker 3: the back with a twelve gay shotgun and killed in 564 00:35:56,676 --> 00:36:01,916 Speaker 3: my house in a predominantly black part of Rulemaking County, Alabama. 565 00:36:03,196 --> 00:36:05,796 Speaker 3: He bled to death while the ambuletce took over one 566 00:36:05,836 --> 00:36:11,276 Speaker 3: hour to make the sixth trip from their station to 567 00:36:11,356 --> 00:36:16,436 Speaker 3: our house. I want to recognize Brandon's good works. Brandon 568 00:36:16,516 --> 00:36:19,996 Speaker 3: lived on the street for several years, and society did 569 00:36:20,036 --> 00:36:23,076 Speaker 3: not approve of much of what he did to survive. 570 00:36:23,796 --> 00:36:28,316 Speaker 3: Despite the street life, Brandon had the strength and the 571 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:31,556 Speaker 3: resolve to protect and care for other abused children he 572 00:36:31,596 --> 00:36:37,436 Speaker 3: met on the streets. This good work has not been recognized. Also, 573 00:36:37,556 --> 00:36:41,476 Speaker 3: in the early hours of September twenty three, nineteen ninety four, 574 00:36:42,116 --> 00:36:46,316 Speaker 3: three killers attempted to kill everyone in our house. As 575 00:36:46,316 --> 00:36:50,916 Speaker 3: they attacked, Brandon put his life on the line. He 576 00:36:50,996 --> 00:36:55,676 Speaker 3: was murdered, but his actions saved three other young lives. 577 00:36:56,196 --> 00:36:58,956 Speaker 3: I missed Brandon, and I know that he would have 578 00:36:59,196 --> 00:37:02,996 Speaker 3: made many lives better if he had lived. 579 00:37:20,676 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 2: Our revisionist history Gun series was produced by Jacob Smith, Bend, 580 00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:30,436 Speaker 2: daph Haffrey, Kiara Powell, Tally Emlin, and Leemn gistoo. We 581 00:37:30,436 --> 00:37:34,076 Speaker 2: were edited by Peter Clowney and Julia Barton. Fact checking 582 00:37:34,116 --> 00:37:38,956 Speaker 2: by Arthur Gomberts and Kashelle Williams, original scoring by Luisquira, 583 00:37:39,436 --> 00:37:46,756 Speaker 2: mastering by FLONN Williams, Engineering by Nina Lawrence. I'm Malcolm Glapwell. 584 00:38:03,036 --> 00:38:05,276 Speaker 2: You may have noticed there are two different dates given 585 00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:09,756 Speaker 2: for Brandon Young's death. August twenty third, nineteen ninety four 586 00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:13,476 Speaker 2: is the correct date. There was an error in Gundlock's 587 00:38:13,596 --> 00:38:14,356 Speaker 2: original paper.