1
00:00:17,264 --> 00:00:17,744
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:24,344 --> 00:00:27,824
Speaker 2: Not all travel requires a passport, some of it requires

3
00:00:27,824 --> 00:00:31,344
Speaker 2: a pen. That's the world of David Remnick. As editor

4
00:00:31,344 --> 00:00:33,464
Speaker 2: in chief of The New Yorker for twenty seven years,

5
00:00:33,864 --> 00:00:36,984
Speaker 2: David Remnick has dispatched the finest writers of our time

6
00:00:37,304 --> 00:00:39,984
Speaker 2: to the farthest corners of the globe, and he's read

7
00:00:40,024 --> 00:00:43,943
Speaker 2: and refined every word they've reported back. David himself has

8
00:00:43,984 --> 00:00:46,864
Speaker 2: reported from Moscow in the final days of the Soviet Union,

9
00:00:47,304 --> 00:00:50,184
Speaker 2: on campaign trails, and from the tour buses of the

10
00:00:50,264 --> 00:00:53,544
Speaker 2: greatest musicians. He spent his early years moving to where

11
00:00:53,543 --> 00:00:56,544
Speaker 2: this story took him, but in recent decades the stories

12
00:00:56,544 --> 00:00:59,704
Speaker 2: have come to him instead. He's a poored, surprise winner

13
00:00:59,904 --> 00:01:02,904
Speaker 2: and one of the great editors of his generation. However,

14
00:01:02,944 --> 00:01:06,064
Speaker 2: despite his great knowledge and intellect, he never condescends to

15
00:01:06,104 --> 00:01:09,304
Speaker 2: those he's in conversation with, whether it's in his pages

16
00:01:09,584 --> 00:01:12,744
Speaker 2: or in person. Today, I want to ask him not

17
00:01:12,824 --> 00:01:15,384
Speaker 2: so much about where he's been, for what the magazine

18
00:01:15,383 --> 00:01:18,943
Speaker 2: has uncovered and continues to reveal about the world. Here's

19
00:01:19,024 --> 00:01:26,744
Speaker 2: my conversation with the great David Remnick. David Remnick, it's

20
00:01:26,824 --> 00:01:28,304
Speaker 2: an honor. I'm so grateful.

21
00:01:28,464 --> 00:01:29,143
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

22
00:01:29,223 --> 00:01:32,624
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, thanks I wanted to start off referencing a

23
00:01:32,663 --> 00:01:36,103
Speaker 2: particular article that was a real problem for me as

24
00:01:36,144 --> 00:01:38,703
Speaker 2: a owner of a travel company, which came out I

25
00:01:38,744 --> 00:01:39,984
Speaker 2: guess in twenty twenty three.

26
00:01:40,104 --> 00:01:40,943
Speaker 1: It was bad for business.

27
00:01:41,184 --> 00:01:44,783
Speaker 2: Well, you know, at least I had people questioning, but

28
00:01:44,824 --> 00:01:47,463
Speaker 2: it was just really on the other side of the

29
00:01:47,464 --> 00:01:50,743
Speaker 2: pandemic when things were kind of exploding. It was revenge

30
00:01:50,784 --> 00:01:53,344
Speaker 2: travel and all those things. But the article was the

31
00:01:53,383 --> 00:01:57,824
Speaker 2: case against travel, which I imagine that like, because travel

32
00:01:57,904 --> 00:01:59,824
Speaker 2: is so close to the heart of so many people

33
00:01:59,864 --> 00:02:02,664
Speaker 2: and they're so interested in it, it kind of exploded

34
00:02:02,704 --> 00:02:04,824
Speaker 2: online and I remember reading it. I wanted to talk

35
00:02:04,824 --> 00:02:07,544
Speaker 2: to you a little bit about it because the premise,

36
00:02:07,584 --> 00:02:11,103
Speaker 2: I guess, is that travel can destroy places that it

37
00:02:11,104 --> 00:02:15,504
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily add to curiosity, and it doesn't it doesn't

38
00:02:15,663 --> 00:02:19,584
Speaker 2: enrich your life. So I wanted to say, like, why

39
00:02:19,744 --> 00:02:21,624
Speaker 2: did we publish that at the New YORKA.

40
00:02:21,663 --> 00:02:23,864
Speaker 1: Well, I publish things that I disagree with all the time,

41
00:02:24,184 --> 00:02:28,464
Speaker 1: otherwise it would be a very boring, boring magazine. Look,

42
00:02:28,504 --> 00:02:33,103
Speaker 1: I take her point about destroying places, and there are

43
00:02:33,103 --> 00:02:36,983
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons for that that preservationists work very

44
00:02:36,983 --> 00:02:39,784
Speaker 1: hard to reverse in this country, or that but I

45
00:02:40,064 --> 00:02:43,624
Speaker 1: know in my own life that it's absolutely true that

46
00:02:43,744 --> 00:02:46,983
Speaker 1: a lot of my impression of the world and its

47
00:02:47,304 --> 00:02:52,303
Speaker 1: peoples and its landscapes come through reading or watching movies.

48
00:02:52,584 --> 00:02:56,344
Speaker 1: But I also know in my own experience that having

49
00:02:56,383 --> 00:03:00,344
Speaker 1: gone to certain places a lot, and even some places

50
00:03:00,424 --> 00:03:05,303
Speaker 1: once or twice, changed me immeasurably. First of all, I

51
00:03:05,344 --> 00:03:07,744
Speaker 1: think she was being provoked, of course, yeah, and it worked.

52
00:03:08,304 --> 00:03:10,184
Speaker 1: Here we are years later talking about it.

53
00:03:10,304 --> 00:03:12,624
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I enjoyed it, actually, I have to say,

54
00:03:12,663 --> 00:03:13,904
Speaker 2: because there were points in it.

55
00:03:14,024 --> 00:03:16,383
Speaker 1: I can't imagine anybody canceled the trip because.

56
00:03:18,383 --> 00:03:20,863
Speaker 2: It was in jest and there were some really good

57
00:03:20,864 --> 00:03:22,823
Speaker 2: points in that. And I think because the title was

58
00:03:22,864 --> 00:03:26,504
Speaker 2: so provocative, it had people think about travel can destroy places.

59
00:03:26,543 --> 00:03:29,984
Speaker 1: It's like Susan Sontag's against interpretation when she spent an

60
00:03:30,103 --> 00:03:34,544
Speaker 1: entire life interpreting things, So titles can have that effect.

61
00:03:34,824 --> 00:03:38,743
Speaker 2: You mentioned some places that have changed in returning. What

62
00:03:39,144 --> 00:03:40,464
Speaker 2: are some of those examples for you?

63
00:03:40,584 --> 00:03:43,384
Speaker 1: Well, the most transformative for me is the one place

64
00:03:43,424 --> 00:03:46,544
Speaker 1: that I lived, so it wasn't really even travel, but

65
00:03:46,944 --> 00:03:49,424
Speaker 1: you know, I lived in Moscow from the beginning of

66
00:03:49,504 --> 00:03:52,104
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight until the end of nineteen ninety one,

67
00:03:52,144 --> 00:03:55,583
Speaker 1: and then thereafter went back and back and back and back,

68
00:03:55,744 --> 00:03:57,664
Speaker 1: and unfortunately, I think I'll never be able to go

69
00:03:57,704 --> 00:04:02,024
Speaker 1: there again unless I want to wind up in deep trouble.

70
00:04:02,104 --> 00:04:07,144
Speaker 1: But I went as a correspondent, but it was unforgettable. Look,

71
00:04:07,144 --> 00:04:07,984
Speaker 1: I'd go anywhere.

72
00:04:08,104 --> 00:04:10,424
Speaker 2: So you moved there in nineteen eighty eight. Was that

73
00:04:10,504 --> 00:04:13,904
Speaker 2: something that like a long held ambition to have that post?

74
00:04:14,064 --> 00:04:17,063
Speaker 1: Or No, it was an accident of fate. You know.

75
00:04:17,104 --> 00:04:18,544
Speaker 1: I grew up in a family we didn't have much

76
00:04:18,624 --> 00:04:21,304
Speaker 1: dough and my parents were disabled. We didn't go anywhere.

77
00:04:21,384 --> 00:04:23,704
Speaker 1: For us. To go to Cape Cod for a week

78
00:04:24,424 --> 00:04:26,943
Speaker 1: in a car and stay in a little salt box cabin,

79
00:04:27,024 --> 00:04:29,864
Speaker 1: that was we never I don't think my parents and

80
00:04:29,904 --> 00:04:34,224
Speaker 1: I ever went together anywhere on a plane ever. We

81
00:04:34,264 --> 00:04:37,944
Speaker 1: once drove to Florida. That was it. And I lived

82
00:04:37,944 --> 00:04:42,104
Speaker 1: in a very dull New Jersey town, kind of like

83
00:04:42,144 --> 00:04:46,664
Speaker 1: Springsteen North, you know, just without an ocean. All I

84
00:04:46,704 --> 00:04:48,424
Speaker 1: wanted to do is get the hell out of there,

85
00:04:48,504 --> 00:04:50,344
Speaker 1: and I wanted to live here. I wanted to live

86
00:04:50,384 --> 00:04:52,504
Speaker 1: in New York City, which was the great you know,

87
00:04:52,584 --> 00:04:54,504
Speaker 1: it was like Emerald City across the river. It was

88
00:04:54,504 --> 00:04:57,224
Speaker 1: only thirty minutes away, and I also wanted to travel,

89
00:04:57,544 --> 00:05:01,664
Speaker 1: and I was very, very lucky in that. My first

90
00:05:02,024 --> 00:05:05,424
Speaker 1: real crack at it was when I was in college

91
00:05:05,824 --> 00:05:08,784
Speaker 1: and I was kind of stumbling. I was doing okay,

92
00:05:08,784 --> 00:05:12,904
Speaker 1: but not great, and I I did something by middle

93
00:05:12,904 --> 00:05:16,704
Speaker 1: class standard's very bold. I told my parents that I

94
00:05:16,824 --> 00:05:21,743
Speaker 1: was going to learn French at the Alliance. Franz says.

95
00:05:21,784 --> 00:05:23,424
Speaker 1: I didn't know what that was, and my parents didn't

96
00:05:23,424 --> 00:05:25,424
Speaker 1: know what that was either, and it was a complete lie.

97
00:05:25,504 --> 00:05:28,184
Speaker 1: And I took my Yamaha guitar and I got on

98
00:05:28,264 --> 00:05:31,784
Speaker 1: a People's express flight for I don't know, seventy five

99
00:05:31,824 --> 00:05:35,904
Speaker 1: bucks to Paris, and I lived in an incredibly crappy,

100
00:05:36,064 --> 00:05:41,144
Speaker 1: cheap hippie hotel and every morning played in the Metro.

101
00:05:41,464 --> 00:05:43,984
Speaker 1: I was a busker and I made my living that way.

102
00:05:44,904 --> 00:05:48,144
Speaker 1: So that to me is travel. It's not tourism, because

103
00:05:48,144 --> 00:05:51,024
Speaker 1: I stayed there for months and I stumbled along in

104
00:05:51,024 --> 00:05:54,784
Speaker 1: the language, and you know, had friends and girlfriends, and

105
00:05:55,744 --> 00:05:59,064
Speaker 1: went to endless movies and pretended that I was in

106
00:05:59,104 --> 00:06:04,264
Speaker 1: a nouvelle vague film. You know, I was nineteen years old.

107
00:06:04,664 --> 00:06:08,264
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. So of course I'm not against travel.

108
00:06:08,304 --> 00:06:09,864
Speaker 1: It woke me the hell up. And then I went

109
00:06:09,904 --> 00:06:12,424
Speaker 1: back to university and I was different.

110
00:06:13,024 --> 00:06:15,424
Speaker 2: I think also some of the most curious people are

111
00:06:15,424 --> 00:06:18,024
Speaker 2: the ones that obviously didn't get to travel as children

112
00:06:18,184 --> 00:06:22,624
Speaker 2: or teenagers. And that was effectively the same line from Brisbane,

113
00:06:22,664 --> 00:06:26,744
Speaker 2: which is like at that point a conservative town, pretty closed,

114
00:06:26,784 --> 00:06:29,664
Speaker 2: and so all I ever wanted to do was get out.

115
00:06:29,744 --> 00:06:31,784
Speaker 1: Well when I the next big trip I took was

116
00:06:31,824 --> 00:06:35,864
Speaker 1: after college, and it was a very Australian thing to do, right.

117
00:06:36,384 --> 00:06:37,944
Speaker 1: I didn't get a job that I thought I was

118
00:06:37,984 --> 00:06:39,624
Speaker 1: going to get at the Washington Post because the other

119
00:06:39,704 --> 00:06:42,864
Speaker 1: paper in town closed. I was an intern and I

120
00:06:42,904 --> 00:06:44,584
Speaker 1: was doing reasonably well and I thought I was getting

121
00:06:44,584 --> 00:06:46,464
Speaker 1: this job. They said go away for a year. That's

122
00:06:46,504 --> 00:06:51,624
Speaker 1: exactly what I did. I taught English at Sofia University

123
00:06:51,664 --> 00:06:54,904
Speaker 1: in Tokyo, and I was not a Japanophile, but that

124
00:06:55,064 --> 00:06:57,864
Speaker 1: was what was available. I grabbed it. And then the

125
00:06:57,904 --> 00:07:00,344
Speaker 1: other six months I traveled on I don't know, five

126
00:07:00,344 --> 00:07:05,944
Speaker 1: bucks a day at most, like in Southeast Asia, in

127
00:07:05,944 --> 00:07:08,144
Speaker 1: India and Nepal, blah blah blah blah.

128
00:07:08,264 --> 00:07:10,264
Speaker 2: I have to apologize for my people, and they're all

129
00:07:10,304 --> 00:07:14,824
Speaker 2: Australians exactly Australians, Israelis French heroine addicts.

130
00:07:15,904 --> 00:07:19,624
Speaker 1: What else did you encounter some Germans, white people abroad?

131
00:07:20,704 --> 00:07:24,664
Speaker 1: There was this kind of slightly hippie colonial thing going on.

132
00:07:25,144 --> 00:07:27,744
Speaker 2: Well there's also like I think with Australians as well.

133
00:07:28,264 --> 00:07:30,944
Speaker 2: You know, they think of themselves as great travelers. I

134
00:07:30,984 --> 00:07:35,744
Speaker 2: think that Australians have a kind of naivety and therefore

135
00:07:35,744 --> 00:07:38,984
Speaker 2: a curiosity and sense of awe around travel. So they

136
00:07:39,024 --> 00:07:41,584
Speaker 2: come at it in a kind of very open hearted,

137
00:07:41,664 --> 00:07:42,744
Speaker 2: open minded way.

138
00:07:42,944 --> 00:07:48,024
Speaker 1: I think any traveling you do, as you're there, it's

139
00:07:48,304 --> 00:07:51,344
Speaker 1: you're mentally, it's overlaid with all the things that you've

140
00:07:51,384 --> 00:07:54,264
Speaker 1: read about the place where seen in films or imagined,

141
00:07:54,864 --> 00:07:57,504
Speaker 1: and it's almost like the actual place if you don't

142
00:07:57,544 --> 00:08:00,784
Speaker 1: watch it is a backdrop for your own fantasy. And

143
00:08:00,904 --> 00:08:03,464
Speaker 1: so you're here but not here, and there but not there.

144
00:08:03,504 --> 00:08:07,184
Speaker 1: And that's going on all the time. Remember traveling to India,

145
00:08:07,384 --> 00:08:09,824
Speaker 1: what did I want to see? I wanted to see

146
00:08:09,824 --> 00:08:12,304
Speaker 1: where the Beatles had gone, right, because that was an

147
00:08:12,344 --> 00:08:16,464
Speaker 1: epical event in my childhood, the the Beatles go to India,

148
00:08:16,504 --> 00:08:19,104
Speaker 1: to the astrom and all that kind of stuff. In

149
00:08:19,144 --> 00:08:21,664
Speaker 1: a way, it's silly and it has nothing to do

150
00:08:21,744 --> 00:08:27,384
Speaker 1: with Indian life or actual India. There is this interplay,

151
00:08:27,544 --> 00:08:31,144
Speaker 1: especially on shorter trips between and maybe this Agnes gets

152
00:08:31,184 --> 00:08:35,544
Speaker 1: at this too, between the actual place and the place

153
00:08:35,544 --> 00:08:36,184
Speaker 1: in your head.

154
00:08:36,304 --> 00:08:38,304
Speaker 2: Well, I think that social media has really changed that

155
00:08:38,463 --> 00:08:41,784
Speaker 2: as well, because people kind of put themselves as their

156
00:08:41,824 --> 00:08:45,264
Speaker 2: best version of themselves in a particular place that they've

157
00:08:45,304 --> 00:08:47,703
Speaker 2: seen someone else. You know. I remember reading this story

158
00:08:47,784 --> 00:08:51,104
Speaker 2: about a influenza that was on like a swing looking

159
00:08:51,144 --> 00:08:55,304
Speaker 2: out into the horizon, and I guess Bali or something

160
00:08:55,384 --> 00:08:57,944
Speaker 2: like that, and she actually had dysentery at the same time,

161
00:08:57,944 --> 00:09:00,264
Speaker 2: but wanted to get that shot that everyone had, you know,

162
00:09:00,304 --> 00:09:01,984
Speaker 2: I think that's for her. Yeah, exactly.

163
00:09:02,384 --> 00:09:04,463
Speaker 1: Well, I think that they But as you can imagine,

164
00:09:04,784 --> 00:09:08,624
Speaker 1: you know, as the camera war reveal, I'm not twenty eight,

165
00:09:08,824 --> 00:09:12,504
Speaker 1: and so I don't care about any right, and it

166
00:09:12,544 --> 00:09:16,144
Speaker 1: seems silly, and I hope it goes away at some point,

167
00:09:16,144 --> 00:09:19,544
Speaker 1: but obviously it won't. But because it just it ruins it,

168
00:09:20,184 --> 00:09:25,103
Speaker 1: I'd be maybe not against travel, but against Instagram.

169
00:09:24,424 --> 00:09:26,863
Speaker 2: Right, I think that's fair. But I do think that

170
00:09:26,983 --> 00:09:30,143
Speaker 2: like there is nothing wrong I think to your point

171
00:09:30,384 --> 00:09:32,904
Speaker 2: of having a sense of romance in your head about

172
00:09:32,904 --> 00:09:36,024
Speaker 2: a particular place and then marrying it to the reality.

173
00:09:36,463 --> 00:09:40,023
Speaker 2: Sometimes that kind of if you get to that nexus,

174
00:09:40,463 --> 00:09:42,784
Speaker 2: it's a great trip. You know, there's a place in Seville,

175
00:09:42,863 --> 00:09:46,424
Speaker 2: for example, that's the Museum of Flamenco, right, and you

176
00:09:46,463 --> 00:09:48,664
Speaker 2: would think, oh, I want to find that little bar

177
00:09:49,223 --> 00:09:51,824
Speaker 2: at three in the morning where the Flamenco starts up.

178
00:09:51,863 --> 00:09:54,264
Speaker 2: And yes, you can find that, but that's sort of

179
00:09:54,944 --> 00:09:58,023
Speaker 2: a very mercurial thing. And so sometimes I recommend people

180
00:09:58,064 --> 00:10:01,304
Speaker 2: go to this Museum of Flamenco and at first they go,

181
00:10:02,024 --> 00:10:05,463
Speaker 2: why are you sending me to this tourist place, And

182
00:10:05,623 --> 00:10:08,424
Speaker 2: in fact it just happens to be where you can

183
00:10:08,463 --> 00:10:10,744
Speaker 2: see the best and you don't want to go to

184
00:10:10,784 --> 00:10:13,864
Speaker 2: Sevil without experiencing that. So I would think that's like

185
00:10:14,264 --> 00:10:17,424
Speaker 2: you figure out ways in which to pull out the

186
00:10:17,504 --> 00:10:20,784
Speaker 2: idea of a place for people and then you match

187
00:10:20,824 --> 00:10:21,784
Speaker 2: it with the reality.

188
00:10:22,504 --> 00:10:25,864
Speaker 1: I just feel, as silly as all of this can be,

189
00:10:27,343 --> 00:10:31,424
Speaker 1: it's it's still if you're privileged enough to be able

190
00:10:31,424 --> 00:10:34,383
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, because travel is in a sense

191
00:10:34,824 --> 00:10:38,424
Speaker 1: a privilege. Absolutely, even if you're doing it very cheaply,

192
00:10:38,463 --> 00:10:41,463
Speaker 1: you're still able to dislocate yourself from where you live

193
00:10:41,504 --> 00:10:43,903
Speaker 1: and so on. That's that's real privilege. I think of

194
00:10:43,944 --> 00:10:45,784
Speaker 1: people that come to the city that I know the best,

195
00:10:45,824 --> 00:10:47,583
Speaker 1: the one that we're sitting in now in New York City,

196
00:10:48,623 --> 00:10:51,224
Speaker 1: and you see where people line up and they kind

197
00:10:51,223 --> 00:10:54,944
Speaker 1: of like a herd of sheep, find themselves headed to

198
00:10:54,983 --> 00:10:57,624
Speaker 1: Times Square for what reason I do not know. And

199
00:10:57,664 --> 00:10:59,743
Speaker 1: it's not like they have tickets to shows that they

200
00:10:59,824 --> 00:11:03,744
Speaker 1: just feel that because everybody is there, they must be there.

201
00:11:03,944 --> 00:11:05,703
Speaker 1: And you got Piccadilly is a little bit like this.

202
00:11:05,743 --> 00:11:07,624
Speaker 1: You go to Piccadilly in London is like, why the

203
00:11:07,623 --> 00:11:10,664
Speaker 1: hell is everybody here? There's so many better places in

204
00:11:10,703 --> 00:11:15,704
Speaker 1: London can be. But nevertheless, nevertheless.

205
00:11:15,064 --> 00:11:17,863
Speaker 2: I completely agree with you. And actually, if I want

206
00:11:17,904 --> 00:11:21,384
Speaker 2: to feel uplifted, sometimes it's just the most charming thing

207
00:11:21,463 --> 00:11:24,504
Speaker 2: to see a family that's come to New York. They're

208
00:11:24,504 --> 00:11:28,143
Speaker 2: in awe of Times Square. It's like, I think it's

209
00:11:28,184 --> 00:11:30,664
Speaker 2: you know, yes, it has its negatifts in New York

210
00:11:30,664 --> 00:11:33,223
Speaker 2: because go there rarely unless they're going to the theater.

211
00:11:33,384 --> 00:11:35,944
Speaker 2: But there is something uplifting about that. And I'm also

212
00:11:36,424 --> 00:11:39,144
Speaker 2: you know, it might be the only trip that they

213
00:11:39,424 --> 00:11:41,463
Speaker 2: do as a family, and I think it's yeah, I

214
00:11:41,504 --> 00:11:44,703
Speaker 2: think it's an inspiring thing to see.

215
00:11:45,664 --> 00:11:48,304
Speaker 1: Look, I would do this more. I was glad I

216
00:11:48,343 --> 00:11:50,344
Speaker 1: did it when I was young. In other words, now,

217
00:11:50,743 --> 00:11:53,184
Speaker 1: the places I stayed when I was twenty, there's no

218
00:11:53,264 --> 00:11:55,744
Speaker 1: way in the world I would stay in now, No

219
00:11:55,824 --> 00:11:59,904
Speaker 1: way in the world rat infested twenty people in a room,

220
00:12:00,343 --> 00:12:03,024
Speaker 1: slabs instead of beds, all that kind of stuff. Does

221
00:12:03,024 --> 00:12:04,824
Speaker 1: that still exists on that you know what?

222
00:12:04,824 --> 00:12:07,024
Speaker 2: It's an interesting Yeah, it does for sure. For sure,

223
00:12:07,064 --> 00:12:11,703
Speaker 2: there's like a backpacker track that continues. I think it's

224
00:12:11,784 --> 00:12:14,904
Speaker 2: like evolved from then, and probably for the worst in

225
00:12:14,944 --> 00:12:15,624
Speaker 2: a lot of ways.

226
00:12:15,664 --> 00:12:18,104
Speaker 1: But I guess the older I get and the more

227
00:12:18,144 --> 00:12:24,544
Speaker 1: time makes its presence known in your psychology, I tend

228
00:12:24,544 --> 00:12:27,343
Speaker 1: to go to the same places to know them better

229
00:12:27,463 --> 00:12:29,944
Speaker 1: rather than to you know, tick off boxes of places

230
00:12:29,944 --> 00:12:30,624
Speaker 1: that I haven't been.

231
00:12:31,223 --> 00:12:32,663
Speaker 2: What are some of those places?

232
00:12:32,863 --> 00:12:36,464
Speaker 1: Well? And I rarely go anywhere without a notebook on

233
00:12:36,504 --> 00:12:40,863
Speaker 1: my hand. I go to work, and that's and that's

234
00:12:40,944 --> 00:12:43,824
Speaker 1: largely also the way I see the world, for better

235
00:12:43,904 --> 00:12:47,304
Speaker 1: for worse. So, if I'm being honest and we kind

236
00:12:47,304 --> 00:12:53,064
Speaker 1: of get beyond the surface of this conversation, if my

237
00:12:53,144 --> 00:12:55,983
Speaker 1: life were different, I'd probably go on more trips as such,

238
00:12:56,103 --> 00:12:59,864
Speaker 1: you know, as a for fun. But it's not different.

239
00:12:59,904 --> 00:13:04,784
Speaker 1: I'm I have an autistic kid at home, and I

240
00:13:04,824 --> 00:13:09,504
Speaker 1: can't just easily leave her. You know, she's twenty six

241
00:13:09,623 --> 00:13:12,983
Speaker 1: years old. So when I do go, it's when other

242
00:13:12,983 --> 00:13:16,904
Speaker 1: people are taking vacations, and I do things like, you know,

243
00:13:16,944 --> 00:13:19,664
Speaker 1: go to the Middle East in an unpleasant time. And

244
00:13:19,703 --> 00:13:23,464
Speaker 1: so the last trips that I've made since October seventh

245
00:13:23,623 --> 00:13:29,184
Speaker 1: or four prolonged trips to Israel and Palestine. And I

246
00:13:29,184 --> 00:13:32,664
Speaker 1: don't think you'd mistake those trips for tourism. It's not

247
00:13:32,703 --> 00:13:37,544
Speaker 1: like I'm on the beach, right. So I gave something

248
00:13:37,623 --> 00:13:40,704
Speaker 1: psychologically at some point, both having to do with travel

249
00:13:40,743 --> 00:13:45,504
Speaker 1: and other things. The whole business of vacation as such,

250
00:13:45,784 --> 00:13:49,743
Speaker 1: tourism I just don't do. Not because I'm such a

251
00:13:49,784 --> 00:13:53,504
Speaker 1: great fella, but because life hands you what it hands you,

252
00:13:53,583 --> 00:13:56,224
Speaker 1: and you try to, you know, do the best you

253
00:13:56,304 --> 00:13:59,503
Speaker 1: possibly can. I'm at a certain point in life where

254
00:13:59,583 --> 00:14:02,103
Speaker 1: I'm not nobody's going to send me for four years

255
00:14:02,144 --> 00:14:07,624
Speaker 1: to a new place, just that's the arithmetic is not

256
00:14:07,664 --> 00:14:09,863
Speaker 1: in that direction. And I have a job. As much

257
00:14:09,863 --> 00:14:17,424
Speaker 1: as I'd like to go to Congo or Hungry or wherever.

258
00:14:18,144 --> 00:14:20,504
Speaker 1: I know that I can't stay there long enough to

259
00:14:20,584 --> 00:14:26,224
Speaker 1: do anything other than to write something very shallow. And

260
00:14:26,264 --> 00:14:27,984
Speaker 1: it makes me very sad that I can't go to

261
00:14:28,064 --> 00:14:31,784
Speaker 1: Russia anymore, because I can get around there, or I

262
00:14:31,784 --> 00:14:34,464
Speaker 1: could get around there. I have every intention of going

263
00:14:34,464 --> 00:14:39,263
Speaker 1: to Crane soon, where I have been many times. So

264
00:14:39,384 --> 00:14:40,904
Speaker 1: I do go to Israel for quite a lot of

265
00:14:40,944 --> 00:14:43,384
Speaker 1: a because it's you know, at the center of a

266
00:14:43,384 --> 00:14:46,784
Speaker 1: lot of attention, and I know my way around, I

267
00:14:46,824 --> 00:14:51,344
Speaker 1: know people. I don't have to spend you know, weeks

268
00:14:51,344 --> 00:14:53,664
Speaker 1: and weeks and weeks getting up to speed. And quite frankly,

269
00:14:53,984 --> 00:14:57,903
Speaker 1: there's a legit a linguistic advantage. Well, I don't speak

270
00:14:57,944 --> 00:15:02,104
Speaker 1: Hebrew or Arabic. The prevalence of English language speakers there

271
00:15:02,184 --> 00:15:06,184
Speaker 1: is very very high, so you know, you start making

272
00:15:06,224 --> 00:15:13,024
Speaker 1: your arithmetic calculations after a while. And that's a form

273
00:15:13,064 --> 00:15:16,624
Speaker 1: of humility too. I would absolutely love to go and

274
00:15:17,264 --> 00:15:19,664
Speaker 1: to Peru with a notebook in my hand or otherwise,

275
00:15:19,704 --> 00:15:21,544
Speaker 1: but I don't know the first thing about it. So

276
00:15:21,944 --> 00:15:27,864
Speaker 1: I'm happy to read Daniel allercon from Peru or any

277
00:15:27,864 --> 00:15:31,064
Speaker 1: other you know, in this analogy holds for any other

278
00:15:31,624 --> 00:15:32,544
Speaker 1: country I can think of.

279
00:15:32,664 --> 00:15:36,704
Speaker 2: Well, I think many people are happy and grateful that

280
00:15:36,824 --> 00:15:40,504
Speaker 2: you feel that way because you transmit that to the world.

281
00:15:40,504 --> 00:15:43,424
Speaker 1: Then, So I mean other than like a long four

282
00:15:43,504 --> 00:15:46,184
Speaker 1: day weekend to go to you know, Martha's vineyard because

283
00:15:46,184 --> 00:15:50,224
Speaker 1: somebody invited me there once a year, that's it. Any

284
00:15:50,224 --> 00:15:52,584
Speaker 1: other time that I'm not cutting a groove between the

285
00:15:52,664 --> 00:15:55,904
Speaker 1: Upper West Side at my apartment to my office, you know,

286
00:15:56,024 --> 00:15:59,824
Speaker 1: at the World Trade Center, and doing other things around

287
00:15:59,904 --> 00:16:03,104
Speaker 1: New York, it's with a notebook in my hand. And

288
00:16:03,144 --> 00:16:08,224
Speaker 1: that's a very very different existence. At one point, my

289
00:16:08,304 --> 00:16:10,344
Speaker 1: wife and I thought this was absurd. We'd gone year

290
00:16:10,344 --> 00:16:12,903
Speaker 1: after year after year year we hadn't gone anywhere together.

291
00:16:13,064 --> 00:16:16,824
Speaker 1: It's certainly not for fun. And she, all on her own,

292
00:16:16,864 --> 00:16:20,023
Speaker 1: made reservations at a place in Barbados. I said, Darling,

293
00:16:20,224 --> 00:16:23,864
Speaker 1: is this a very expensive place? I innoctantly asked. She said, don't.

294
00:16:23,904 --> 00:16:26,664
Speaker 1: Don't you worry. And there's this thing called the Internet.

295
00:16:26,744 --> 00:16:29,664
Speaker 1: You can look up on anything. It's really an incredible device.

296
00:16:29,944 --> 00:16:31,744
Speaker 1: And I looked it up and I realized that Tiger

297
00:16:31,784 --> 00:16:34,864
Speaker 1: Woods had been married there. So I took a wild

298
00:16:34,904 --> 00:16:37,384
Speaker 1: guest and thought it was expensive, but okay, goddamn it,

299
00:16:37,384 --> 00:16:40,383
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. So we get on the airplane,

300
00:16:40,904 --> 00:16:43,984
Speaker 1: we fly into Barbados. We get there, it's a very

301
00:16:44,024 --> 00:16:47,984
Speaker 1: beautiful day. Get to this ritzy resort. It's you know,

302
00:16:48,064 --> 00:16:52,184
Speaker 1: six kinds of ridiculous but okay, and you know the

303
00:16:52,304 --> 00:16:54,824
Speaker 1: balcony that's looking out in the sea and blah blah blah,

304
00:16:55,024 --> 00:16:58,504
Speaker 1: four thousand inch television, go down to the beach, starts

305
00:16:58,544 --> 00:17:02,384
Speaker 1: to get a little gray is fun. What followed was

306
00:17:02,464 --> 00:17:04,984
Speaker 1: five we have out of day trip, five days, the

307
00:17:05,064 --> 00:17:11,263
Speaker 1: first hurricane on Barbados in I don't know decades, and

308
00:17:11,304 --> 00:17:13,384
Speaker 1: then when it's time for our flight to leave, the

309
00:17:13,504 --> 00:17:16,864
Speaker 1: hurricane subsided. There was a glint of sunlight and we

310
00:17:16,904 --> 00:17:19,504
Speaker 1: went home and I thought, I'm never doing this fucking

311
00:17:19,504 --> 00:17:23,344
Speaker 1: thing again. And that was the last time ever. It's

312
00:17:23,464 --> 00:17:25,064
Speaker 1: just seemed ridiculous.

313
00:17:25,424 --> 00:17:28,184
Speaker 2: This episode of Traveling Through is sponsored by Capital One.

314
00:17:28,344 --> 00:17:32,464
Speaker 2: Capital one cardholders are passionate about unforgettable experiences. Together, we

315
00:17:32,544 --> 00:17:35,783
Speaker 2: partner to connect these curious travelers to world cultures through

316
00:17:35,864 --> 00:17:38,744
Speaker 2: expert guided journeys. From the peaks of much Epeachu to

317
00:17:38,784 --> 00:17:41,784
Speaker 2: the grand architecture of Vienna. These ones Inner Lifetime trips

318
00:17:41,864 --> 00:17:44,543
Speaker 2: take you somewhere truly off the beaten path through Capital

319
00:17:44,584 --> 00:17:48,424
Speaker 2: One Entertainment, Eligible cardholders can book exclusive experiences and so

320
00:17:48,544 --> 00:17:52,304
Speaker 2: much more, all while earning elevated rewards. Savor cardholders earn

321
00:17:52,344 --> 00:17:56,024
Speaker 2: eight percent cash back and venture X earns five x miles.

322
00:17:56,144 --> 00:17:59,384
Speaker 2: Thanks to Capital One, your dream getaway is one step closer.

323
00:17:59,784 --> 00:18:01,584
Speaker 2: The reason I wanted to talk to you as well

324
00:18:01,664 --> 00:18:05,184
Speaker 2: is that you're actually extraordinarily well traveled, and you've become

325
00:18:05,224 --> 00:18:10,024
Speaker 2: a conduit to however, many subscribers and readers, including myself,

326
00:18:10,464 --> 00:18:15,984
Speaker 2: and an extraordinary, extraordinary amount about destinations because you're commissioning

327
00:18:16,384 --> 00:18:21,064
Speaker 2: constantly articles that are the doorway into places, people, moments

328
00:18:21,064 --> 00:18:21,464
Speaker 2: in time.

329
00:18:21,664 --> 00:18:25,064
Speaker 1: Yes and no. So one of my distant predecessor and

330
00:18:25,104 --> 00:18:27,864
Speaker 1: probably the greatest editor of the twentieth century was William Sewan.

331
00:18:28,344 --> 00:18:34,384
Speaker 1: William Shawn never went anywhere when he was a young man.

332
00:18:34,704 --> 00:18:39,664
Speaker 1: He went to Paris once. That's it. And I think

333
00:18:39,664 --> 00:18:41,384
Speaker 1: a lot of it had to do with various phobias

334
00:18:41,384 --> 00:18:44,144
Speaker 1: that he had that that were I'm sure very painful

335
00:18:44,144 --> 00:18:47,904
Speaker 1: to flying, traveling whatever. I think in the summers they

336
00:18:47,944 --> 00:18:50,263
Speaker 1: used to rent a house in Westchester and it was

337
00:18:50,424 --> 00:18:52,464
Speaker 1: very painful for him to even go over the bridge

338
00:18:52,504 --> 00:18:54,504
Speaker 1: to get there. So this is a man who spent

339
00:18:54,544 --> 00:18:59,504
Speaker 1: his entire professional life at The New Yorker, which probably

340
00:18:59,544 --> 00:19:06,224
Speaker 1: spanned fifty years, dispatching other people to experience the world

341
00:19:07,504 --> 00:19:11,224
Speaker 1: essentially for him. Because one of the dirty secrets of

342
00:19:11,264 --> 00:19:13,584
Speaker 1: being an editor, or at least in my position, is

343
00:19:13,624 --> 00:19:19,664
Speaker 1: that you're satisfying your own curiosity in this kind of

344
00:19:20,424 --> 00:19:24,104
Speaker 1: attenuated way through somebody else. You know, sometimes, if I'm

345
00:19:24,104 --> 00:19:28,984
Speaker 1: being really honest, I'll say, go go somewhere to some reporter,

346
00:19:29,104 --> 00:19:34,024
Speaker 1: and I'm extremely jealous. Really, oh all the time.

347
00:19:34,224 --> 00:19:36,304
Speaker 2: What's the last one that you were most jealous of?

348
00:19:36,984 --> 00:19:39,664
Speaker 1: Well, I sent you know, josh Yaffa going to Ukraine.

349
00:19:41,704 --> 00:19:45,184
Speaker 1: You know John Lee Anderson going everywhere. The best traveled

350
00:19:45,184 --> 00:19:47,864
Speaker 1: person I know who's been a foreign correspondent for The

351
00:19:47,864 --> 00:19:51,664
Speaker 1: New Yorker, certainly since I began as editor, which is

352
00:19:51,704 --> 00:19:54,704
Speaker 1: now twenty seven, twenty eight years. What he does is

353
00:19:54,744 --> 00:19:58,504
Speaker 1: he goes somewhere, he takes home full notebooks, and he writes,

354
00:19:58,704 --> 00:20:01,504
Speaker 1: and then he thinks about the next place, you know,

355
00:20:01,584 --> 00:20:05,904
Speaker 1: and he goes to nasty places a rack during the war.

356
00:20:06,224 --> 00:20:08,304
Speaker 1: If he could get into Iran now he'd be there.

357
00:20:08,584 --> 00:20:10,304
Speaker 2: What do you think it is in the psychology of

358
00:20:10,304 --> 00:20:12,344
Speaker 2: people that want to be conflict places.

359
00:20:12,664 --> 00:20:14,704
Speaker 1: I think it would be insulting to say that they

360
00:20:14,864 --> 00:20:20,584
Speaker 1: crave danger. In fact, I was with John Lee in

361
00:20:20,744 --> 00:20:25,464
Speaker 1: New Orleans during the horrible flood. What was so interesting

362
00:20:25,504 --> 00:20:28,424
Speaker 1: to see John Lee do in watch him in action

363
00:20:28,664 --> 00:20:31,744
Speaker 1: was how you know exactly what to bring, what equipment,

364
00:20:31,864 --> 00:20:35,424
Speaker 1: what you know kind of plugs. The guy knows what

365
00:20:35,464 --> 00:20:39,144
Speaker 1: to do. It was really like watching you know, Michael

366
00:20:39,224 --> 00:20:42,824
Speaker 1: Jordan knows what to put in his gym back. Yeah.

367
00:20:42,944 --> 00:20:47,944
Speaker 2: I know you're very interested in music. Are there opportunities

368
00:20:47,944 --> 00:20:53,144
Speaker 2: where you've traveled or seen musicians in certain places? Like

369
00:20:53,264 --> 00:20:55,144
Speaker 2: what's some memorable examples?

370
00:20:55,504 --> 00:20:58,864
Speaker 1: So I took this crazy trip with Bill Clinton. So

371
00:20:58,944 --> 00:21:02,104
Speaker 1: after he was president, he would find some rich person

372
00:21:02,104 --> 00:21:08,544
Speaker 1: who had a plane. Let's discuss that another plan. Yes, exactly,

373
00:21:08,664 --> 00:21:12,464
Speaker 1: it wasn't his plane, right, it was some Vancouver mining

374
00:21:12,904 --> 00:21:16,864
Speaker 1: magnate's plane. And in the plane, in the back of

375
00:21:16,904 --> 00:21:22,144
Speaker 1: the plane, the nice bit was Clinton, the rich guy,

376
00:21:22,384 --> 00:21:24,864
Speaker 1: and maybe his senior couple of people. Then in the

377
00:21:24,944 --> 00:21:28,944
Speaker 1: middle of the plane where the Secret Service people, and

378
00:21:28,984 --> 00:21:31,864
Speaker 1: in the front of the plane where the five or

379
00:21:31,864 --> 00:21:35,464
Speaker 1: six hacks that were going along with the reporters. We

380
00:21:35,624 --> 00:21:38,784
Speaker 1: caught up with Clinton for a World Cup final game

381
00:21:38,824 --> 00:21:44,384
Speaker 1: in Berlin. Watched the game fantastic Germany against France when

382
00:21:44,504 --> 00:21:50,024
Speaker 1: Zudan was thrown out of the game. Sam and then

383
00:21:50,024 --> 00:21:53,824
Speaker 1: we got on a plane that night, landed briefly in

384
00:21:54,984 --> 00:21:58,023
Speaker 1: god Sudan, and by the next morning we were in

385
00:21:58,064 --> 00:22:01,264
Speaker 1: South Africa, and he went all around Africa to see

386
00:22:01,304 --> 00:22:03,904
Speaker 1: his good works, you know, the Clinton Foundation. And I

387
00:22:03,944 --> 00:22:06,744
Speaker 1: do remember one night we were in we were in

388
00:22:06,784 --> 00:22:12,984
Speaker 1: Ethiopia and in Audus. After having the dinner with Clinton

389
00:22:12,984 --> 00:22:15,184
Speaker 1: and a few reporters and a couple of other people,

390
00:22:15,704 --> 00:22:17,944
Speaker 1: they went home to bed and the reporters went out

391
00:22:19,024 --> 00:22:21,344
Speaker 1: and we went to this club that was the size

392
00:22:21,384 --> 00:22:26,704
Speaker 1: of this room, and it was the most fantastic music jazz, No,

393
00:22:26,784 --> 00:22:29,744
Speaker 1: it was. It was distinctly it was indigenous music and

394
00:22:30,584 --> 00:22:35,024
Speaker 1: the dancing was almost I'd never seen anything like it.

395
00:22:35,024 --> 00:22:37,024
Speaker 1: It was. It was astonishing.

396
00:22:37,824 --> 00:22:40,744
Speaker 2: There was a huge like club and cafe culture in

397
00:22:40,984 --> 00:22:45,224
Speaker 2: Atis for sure, and like the jazz tradition especially.

398
00:22:44,784 --> 00:22:48,784
Speaker 1: It was it was, It was fantastic, and it really

399
00:22:48,824 --> 00:22:50,944
Speaker 1: somebody knew somebody who knew go there.

400
00:22:51,144 --> 00:22:54,224
Speaker 2: When you're writing a profile on a famous musician, have

401
00:22:54,264 --> 00:22:57,024
Speaker 2: you gone and seen them or been on like tour

402
00:22:57,064 --> 00:22:58,744
Speaker 2: of even for a couple of days at all.

403
00:22:59,464 --> 00:23:02,464
Speaker 1: You go where the story is. And I was going

404
00:23:02,464 --> 00:23:05,504
Speaker 1: to do a profile of Aretha Franklin, who was not

405
00:23:05,624 --> 00:23:11,184
Speaker 1: for a later reporters and very suspicious of writers. And

406
00:23:11,184 --> 00:23:13,184
Speaker 1: so where did she happen to be performing? She was

407
00:23:13,304 --> 00:23:17,144
Speaker 1: at a casino in Ontario, not exactly. You know, you

408
00:23:17,184 --> 00:23:20,944
Speaker 1: fly to Detroit and it's well, was ten years ago,

409
00:23:20,984 --> 00:23:23,664
Speaker 1: thing like that. She was still alive, obviously, and but

410
00:23:23,904 --> 00:23:26,064
Speaker 1: you know, not in the good She was already sick.

411
00:23:26,304 --> 00:23:28,024
Speaker 1: But the geography had nothing to do with it. She

412
00:23:28,264 --> 00:23:32,384
Speaker 1: lived in this enclosed world. And I got to her

413
00:23:32,464 --> 00:23:35,344
Speaker 1: dressing room and there was Aretha Franklin, and in front

414
00:23:35,344 --> 00:23:37,704
Speaker 1: of her were these stacks of one hundred dollars bills.

415
00:23:38,424 --> 00:23:43,264
Speaker 1: Why because like a lot of black musicians in this country,

416
00:23:44,544 --> 00:23:47,304
Speaker 1: they grew up when they would get ripped off by

417
00:23:47,384 --> 00:23:49,904
Speaker 1: promoters all the time. Chuck Berry was notorious for this.

418
00:23:50,144 --> 00:23:52,904
Speaker 1: The way Chuck Berry performed is said he'd show up alone,

419
00:23:52,944 --> 00:23:55,264
Speaker 1: he didn't have a band. He'd show up in your town.

420
00:23:55,744 --> 00:23:58,664
Speaker 1: He'd take out his guitar. He'd insist the promoter filled

421
00:23:58,704 --> 00:24:01,704
Speaker 1: a guitar case with his feet, and there would be

422
00:24:01,744 --> 00:24:04,864
Speaker 1: a local band, you know, kind of what's you know,

423
00:24:04,904 --> 00:24:08,104
Speaker 1: the best gunslingers in town would be there to be

424
00:24:08,144 --> 00:24:12,184
Speaker 1: his backing band, no rehearsal. Bruce Springs did this. Bruce

425
00:24:12,184 --> 00:24:15,704
Speaker 1: Springsteen famously early in his career, was the backup band

426
00:24:15,704 --> 00:24:18,464
Speaker 1: for Chuck Berry one night in New Jersey and Bruce

427
00:24:18,544 --> 00:24:21,144
Speaker 1: said to Chuck Berry, well, what are we going to play?

428
00:24:22,104 --> 00:24:24,263
Speaker 1: And Chuck Berry said, We're going to play Chuck Berry songs.

429
00:24:25,304 --> 00:24:27,664
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what they did. Because you know, if

430
00:24:27,704 --> 00:24:30,144
Speaker 1: you don't know the canon of Chuck Berry songs and

431
00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,184
Speaker 1: you're in a rock and roll band, you don't know shit. Right.

432
00:24:32,704 --> 00:24:34,984
Speaker 1: If you don't know how to play Carol, Johnny be Good,

433
00:24:34,984 --> 00:24:38,544
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, get another job, right. All you

434
00:24:38,584 --> 00:24:40,224
Speaker 1: need to know is what key and off you go,

435
00:24:41,424 --> 00:24:44,824
Speaker 1: so you know, you go where the story is. Maybe

436
00:24:44,824 --> 00:24:48,944
Speaker 1: as Staples. I went to see her in Chicago because

437
00:24:48,984 --> 00:24:52,144
Speaker 1: that was her scene. Buddy Guy too. Buddy Guy as

438
00:24:52,184 --> 00:24:56,664
Speaker 1: somebody who in many ways is the last great blues

439
00:24:57,744 --> 00:25:01,184
Speaker 1: musicians still alive in his nineties and his epical trip

440
00:25:01,264 --> 00:25:05,824
Speaker 1: was the epical trip of all or most Black American

441
00:25:06,184 --> 00:25:08,424
Speaker 1: musicians of a certain generation, which was to be a

442
00:25:08,544 --> 00:25:11,024
Speaker 1: grow up in the Deep South, often in the Delta

443
00:25:11,104 --> 00:25:14,264
Speaker 1: Zippy Delta, and make your way to Chicago. That's where

444
00:25:14,744 --> 00:25:16,664
Speaker 1: that's where it all was. So I spent a lot

445
00:25:16,704 --> 00:25:19,704
Speaker 1: of time in Chicago with Buddy Guar. So if you're

446
00:25:19,704 --> 00:25:25,664
Speaker 1: doing profiles like that, like that, geography can be helpful. Unfortunately,

447
00:25:25,664 --> 00:25:30,104
Speaker 1: most magazine profiles are forty five minutes at some table

448
00:25:30,504 --> 00:25:33,744
Speaker 1: and then you quote unquote do something with the subject.

449
00:25:33,784 --> 00:25:36,544
Speaker 1: You've seen this a thousand times where you're talking to

450
00:25:36,824 --> 00:25:39,704
Speaker 1: Jen Lawrence or whatever, and she's charming and you talk

451
00:25:39,744 --> 00:25:41,744
Speaker 1: for forty five minutes and the tape requerr is going,

452
00:25:42,024 --> 00:25:45,784
Speaker 1: and then she does something like relatable, like get the

453
00:25:45,864 --> 00:25:49,824
Speaker 1: laundry or right, see a friend. It's just, yeah, it's

454
00:25:50,944 --> 00:25:52,024
Speaker 1: debated of my existence.

455
00:25:52,184 --> 00:25:54,744
Speaker 2: At the same time, though, I've read plenty of profiles

456
00:25:54,744 --> 00:25:57,544
Speaker 2: in The New Yorker where someone is emblematic of a

457
00:25:57,584 --> 00:26:01,184
Speaker 2: particular moment in a particular place. I'm from Australia and

458
00:26:01,264 --> 00:26:06,304
Speaker 2: there was a profile that you did about the Mona Museum.

459
00:26:06,464 --> 00:26:11,624
Speaker 2: David Walsh's this eccentric kind of I guess that made

460
00:26:11,664 --> 00:26:17,224
Speaker 2: a fortune in gambling and then started this really eccentric

461
00:26:17,304 --> 00:26:21,104
Speaker 2: wild museum in Hobart, which like was the equivalent, you know,

462
00:26:21,184 --> 00:26:25,584
Speaker 2: total backwater of Australia, and that museum ended up changing

463
00:26:25,624 --> 00:26:28,184
Speaker 2: everything for the entire state and certainly the city. And

464
00:26:28,224 --> 00:26:30,544
Speaker 2: you know, when you're from a smaller place like Australia

465
00:26:30,584 --> 00:26:32,584
Speaker 2: and the New Yorker does a profile of that, it

466
00:26:32,704 --> 00:26:36,864
Speaker 2: also becomes like affirming of what is happening there.

467
00:26:36,944 --> 00:26:38,664
Speaker 1: If that's nice to hear in a way. No, no,

468
00:26:38,784 --> 00:26:39,144
Speaker 1: for sure.

469
00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:42,184
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, it's very very rare that a

470
00:26:42,264 --> 00:26:43,304
Speaker 2: story would happen.

471
00:26:43,384 --> 00:26:45,504
Speaker 1: But we want to take you places, yes, exactly, we

472
00:26:45,544 --> 00:26:48,384
Speaker 1: want to take you places. And a perfect example that

473
00:26:48,584 --> 00:26:51,864
Speaker 1: is David gran When David Grand came to The New Yorker,

474
00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:54,824
Speaker 1: he had been at the New York Times magazine written

475
00:26:54,904 --> 00:26:58,544
Speaker 1: very solid pieces. But I think the New Yorker and him,

476
00:26:58,584 --> 00:27:04,104
Speaker 1: working together with a wonderful editent named Daniel Zelewski, freedom's imagination.

477
00:27:05,184 --> 00:27:09,064
Speaker 1: And I remember David, who when you see him physically,

478
00:27:09,104 --> 00:27:17,384
Speaker 1: does not exactly resemble, you know, a swashbuckling explorer. David

479
00:27:17,424 --> 00:27:19,264
Speaker 1: got it in his head that he wanted to do

480
00:27:19,424 --> 00:27:24,064
Speaker 1: a story about the lost City of z in the

481
00:27:24,104 --> 00:27:29,384
Speaker 1: middle of the Amazon. It's one of these mythological cities

482
00:27:29,424 --> 00:27:33,264
Speaker 1: that apparently had been established at some point in ancient

483
00:27:33,344 --> 00:27:35,784
Speaker 1: history and then kind of got grown over but could

484
00:27:35,784 --> 00:27:38,264
Speaker 1: be seen by in space and all this kind of thing.

485
00:27:38,464 --> 00:27:41,864
Speaker 1: Was it mythological? Was it true? Well, in the great

486
00:27:41,864 --> 00:27:44,344
Speaker 1: tradition of English explorers, there have been attempts to go

487
00:27:44,384 --> 00:27:46,104
Speaker 1: see it, and many people had died of all the

488
00:27:46,144 --> 00:27:49,544
Speaker 1: horrible diseases you can get in the Amazon. So David

489
00:27:49,704 --> 00:27:54,264
Speaker 1: not only did the archival work, which was really interesting,

490
00:27:54,504 --> 00:27:59,784
Speaker 1: he went and he was gone for weeks. And David,

491
00:27:59,904 --> 00:28:03,704
Speaker 1: you know, he's a nice looking guy, but you know,

492
00:28:04,784 --> 00:28:06,904
Speaker 1: a nice Jewish boy. And he comes back and he's

493
00:28:06,904 --> 00:28:13,344
Speaker 1: got a beard like this. He looks like Tolstoy, and

494
00:28:13,384 --> 00:28:16,224
Speaker 1: he looks like he's been sleeping on the ground for weeks,

495
00:28:15,944 --> 00:28:18,944
Speaker 1: and he had been. And the fact that he didn't

496
00:28:18,944 --> 00:28:21,664
Speaker 1: get some horrible diseases of a small miracle. But he

497
00:28:21,704 --> 00:28:24,704
Speaker 1: continued coming to the office looking like this for many days.

498
00:28:24,864 --> 00:28:27,704
Speaker 1: I think he was kind of proud of this vestigial

499
00:28:28,824 --> 00:28:30,984
Speaker 1: aspect of his adventure. And he wrote one of the

500
00:28:31,064 --> 00:28:34,984
Speaker 1: great travel pieces since, you know, and it's in the

501
00:28:35,024 --> 00:28:40,264
Speaker 1: tradition of those travel books that you read about explorers

502
00:28:40,304 --> 00:28:43,624
Speaker 1: to the Antarctica who they all die. That kind of thing.

503
00:28:43,704 --> 00:28:47,184
Speaker 2: I did a story in the Amazon, going through the

504
00:28:47,224 --> 00:28:50,224
Speaker 2: Peruvian Amazon to Akitos, which is one of the more

505
00:28:50,304 --> 00:28:52,744
Speaker 2: isolated cities. You know, Fitzgeraldo, the whole thing.

506
00:28:54,184 --> 00:28:56,984
Speaker 1: Favorite movies, Yeah, really, yeah, I love that book.

507
00:28:56,864 --> 00:29:01,424
Speaker 2: FITZGERALDO, which is, you know, the story of a very

508
00:29:01,424 --> 00:29:05,864
Speaker 2: eccentric person growing up the Amazon towards a place called Akitos,

509
00:29:05,904 --> 00:29:08,464
Speaker 2: which is, you know, one of the most isolated cities

510
00:29:08,504 --> 00:29:11,424
Speaker 2: in the Peruvian Amazon. And so actually it is because

511
00:29:11,424 --> 00:29:13,224
Speaker 2: of that movie that I decided I wanted to go

512
00:29:13,264 --> 00:29:16,864
Speaker 2: into a story. It wasn't a destination per se. You know,

513
00:29:16,904 --> 00:29:18,784
Speaker 2: I was working for a travel magazine.

514
00:29:19,024 --> 00:29:20,344
Speaker 1: I'm on hotel.

515
00:29:20,104 --> 00:29:22,064
Speaker 2: No, no, no, exactly, but I didn't, you know, it's

516
00:29:22,104 --> 00:29:24,384
Speaker 2: not necessarily the thing that I'm super interested in. But

517
00:29:24,504 --> 00:29:26,384
Speaker 2: I wanted to explore that a little bit. But I

518
00:29:26,384 --> 00:29:28,384
Speaker 2: had an idea in my mind around it. So we

519
00:29:28,424 --> 00:29:30,424
Speaker 2: went to a Kiitos and we did a bit of

520
00:29:30,624 --> 00:29:33,624
Speaker 2: a boat situation. I met a bunch of people, and

521
00:29:33,664 --> 00:29:38,424
Speaker 2: then before I knew certainly what ayahuasca is now, which is,

522
00:29:38,424 --> 00:29:42,304
Speaker 2: you know, people go there on retreats, I did something

523
00:29:42,424 --> 00:29:46,064
Speaker 2: with the local indigenous people that was somehow.

524
00:29:45,664 --> 00:29:47,224
Speaker 1: Related to do the iawascar.

525
00:29:47,384 --> 00:29:49,864
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know now, because it was you don't know,

526
00:29:50,184 --> 00:29:52,344
Speaker 2: I liked, you know, I sort of went, you know,

527
00:29:52,384 --> 00:29:55,864
Speaker 2: I just going for it, and yeah, yeah, yeah, it

528
00:29:55,904 --> 00:29:59,344
Speaker 2: was hallucinated. Yes, I'm going to tell you what. I'm

529
00:29:59,384 --> 00:30:00,944
Speaker 2: going to tell you the whole story, because you know,

530
00:30:00,944 --> 00:30:03,744
Speaker 2: it's not ayahuasca that you do over three days. It

531
00:30:03,784 --> 00:30:06,144
Speaker 2: was some like dipping the toe in. Because we were

532
00:30:06,144 --> 00:30:08,704
Speaker 2: only there for a short amount of time. We did that,

533
00:30:08,864 --> 00:30:11,984
Speaker 2: and then we were driving back because there's no roads

534
00:30:12,024 --> 00:30:14,064
Speaker 2: to acuit to us anyway. But we had gone sort

535
00:30:14,064 --> 00:30:17,784
Speaker 2: of outside there into the Amazon, and we were driving

536
00:30:17,864 --> 00:30:21,464
Speaker 2: back from the river. We turned down a road and

537
00:30:21,504 --> 00:30:25,304
Speaker 2: we went into a complete clearing and it was a cemetery.

538
00:30:26,864 --> 00:30:30,744
Speaker 2: But the cemetery was a field of umbrellas. This is

539
00:30:30,824 --> 00:30:33,304
Speaker 2: like the strangest thing so so far.

540
00:30:33,344 --> 00:30:33,584
Speaker 1: It is.

541
00:30:34,144 --> 00:30:36,104
Speaker 2: No, but I said, Pablo, We've got to ship this.

542
00:30:36,104 --> 00:30:39,224
Speaker 2: This is crazy. There's like a Pikachu umbrella. There's like

543
00:30:39,304 --> 00:30:42,584
Speaker 2: a wide umbrella. No. No, And and and then in

544
00:30:42,624 --> 00:30:46,064
Speaker 2: the middle was I guess the sort of mausoleum or

545
00:30:46,104 --> 00:30:49,664
Speaker 2: something where there was a bathroom. And of course Pablo's

546
00:30:50,144 --> 00:30:53,504
Speaker 2: battery dies because we've been out and about for days,

547
00:30:53,904 --> 00:30:59,024
Speaker 2: and I don't know now if I hallucinated that, because

548
00:30:59,064 --> 00:31:02,944
Speaker 2: then I went home and like I think, no, I remember,

549
00:31:03,344 --> 00:31:06,344
Speaker 2: I remember it vividly, but I what my guide, whose

550
00:31:06,424 --> 00:31:11,064
Speaker 2: name actually was Martinuza, made in USA that like these

551
00:31:11,344 --> 00:31:13,024
Speaker 2: really wild stuff happening out there.

552
00:31:13,104 --> 00:31:13,984
Speaker 1: I think you had Iowa.

553
00:31:14,104 --> 00:31:17,504
Speaker 2: Well maybe maybe, but still I've been looking ever since.

554
00:31:17,544 --> 00:31:19,544
Speaker 2: And he's kind of one of those travel memories that.

555
00:31:19,744 --> 00:31:22,144
Speaker 1: It was a travel disaster. That's a great but that's

556
00:31:22,184 --> 00:31:28,904
Speaker 1: a great genre of travel memory and travel literature, right.

557
00:31:29,624 --> 00:31:33,864
Speaker 1: I was addicted when I was traveling and not traveling

558
00:31:33,864 --> 00:31:38,504
Speaker 1: to Paul Theroux's books and where he would take a train,

559
00:31:39,104 --> 00:31:41,744
Speaker 1: and he was very train oriented, but he would take

560
00:31:41,744 --> 00:31:45,584
Speaker 1: a train from you know, the Panama Canal to the

561
00:31:45,704 --> 00:31:51,704
Speaker 1: very tip of South America, or across China or or

562
00:31:52,384 --> 00:31:55,544
Speaker 1: there's this whole series of Paul throughs. And what was

563
00:31:55,664 --> 00:32:03,144
Speaker 1: interesting about him is that it was very solitary, very literary.

564
00:32:03,304 --> 00:32:07,104
Speaker 1: It was based upon the avoidance of disaster and the

565
00:32:07,144 --> 00:32:11,464
Speaker 1: hoping for comfort. He was never so happy when he

566
00:32:11,584 --> 00:32:15,624
Speaker 1: was in the train. The world is going by him

567
00:32:15,864 --> 00:32:20,104
Speaker 1: out the window and the train compartment was rather pleasant,

568
00:32:20,864 --> 00:32:25,304
Speaker 1: and anything short of that would cause him at times

569
00:32:25,344 --> 00:32:28,624
Speaker 1: to either be fascinated or to go into a kind

570
00:32:28,624 --> 00:32:33,864
Speaker 1: of vs. Nipaul like irritation. And that was the whole

571
00:32:33,944 --> 00:32:35,904
Speaker 1: drama of the book. It's not like you learn so

572
00:32:36,104 --> 00:32:39,944
Speaker 1: much about China or South America or this that or

573
00:32:39,984 --> 00:32:42,944
Speaker 1: the other place. It was. These books were about travel

574
00:32:42,944 --> 00:32:44,944
Speaker 1: of a very certain kind, and I understand that. I

575
00:32:44,984 --> 00:32:49,264
Speaker 1: totally understand that kind because travel disaster can be interesting

576
00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:52,784
Speaker 1: and travel comfort can be interesting. I remember the first

577
00:32:52,784 --> 00:32:57,024
Speaker 1: time I ever went to then Leningrad now Saint Petersburg,

578
00:32:57,104 --> 00:33:00,264
Speaker 1: before I was ever a correspondent. Everything was incredibly cheap,

579
00:33:01,144 --> 00:33:05,464
Speaker 1: incredibly cheap, and I had a room at the Astoria Hotel,

580
00:33:05,784 --> 00:33:07,704
Speaker 1: which would be like you know, the Wold or for story.

581
00:33:07,704 --> 00:33:10,384
Speaker 1: It was incredibly nice, but just through in tourists, it

582
00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:16,064
Speaker 1: wasn't it. And I remember the great pleasure of sitting

583
00:33:16,184 --> 00:33:23,104
Speaker 1: in my room reading The Nose by Google and outside

584
00:33:23,144 --> 00:33:28,784
Speaker 1: the windows were Saint Petersburg. Just the sheer comfort of that,

585
00:33:29,664 --> 00:33:33,144
Speaker 1: you know you can have Saint Bart's That to me

586
00:33:33,424 --> 00:33:37,104
Speaker 1: was Saint Bart's right. But also when you have a disaster,

587
00:33:38,344 --> 00:33:42,664
Speaker 1: it's really uncomfortable in the doing, you know, whether it's

588
00:33:42,704 --> 00:33:45,224
Speaker 1: in the search for a bathroom in the middle of

589
00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:49,064
Speaker 1: a you know, a graveyard or a car breaking down

590
00:33:49,104 --> 00:33:51,464
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, because you don't know what's

591
00:33:51,504 --> 00:33:56,384
Speaker 1: going to happen. You might die one way or another.

592
00:33:56,744 --> 00:34:01,264
Speaker 1: And that is something even if it's hard to live through,

593
00:34:01,304 --> 00:34:04,344
Speaker 1: it's never boring until you start telling the story to

594
00:34:04,384 --> 00:34:06,504
Speaker 1: other people, and it can be a little bored.

595
00:34:06,744 --> 00:34:09,544
Speaker 2: Right, Just to backtrack a little bit, you're talking about

596
00:34:10,424 --> 00:34:13,263
Speaker 2: like atmosphere baric stories, and I think there was you know,

597
00:34:13,344 --> 00:34:15,264
Speaker 2: I think that The New Yorker is really the only

598
00:34:15,344 --> 00:34:19,984
Speaker 2: place that publishes that kind of travel writing now in

599
00:34:20,024 --> 00:34:22,623
Speaker 2: a lot of ways, Like I remember there was Jonathan

600
00:34:22,663 --> 00:34:25,504
Speaker 2: Franzen wrote a great piece about Antarctica.

601
00:34:25,743 --> 00:34:29,223
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was he inherited. I think he'd inherited some

602
00:34:29,303 --> 00:34:32,343
Speaker 1: money and he decided to spend it on a kind

603
00:34:32,344 --> 00:34:36,944
Speaker 1: of you know, first rate trip to the antarcity.

604
00:34:37,024 --> 00:34:39,104
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, maybe tell tell me a little bit

605
00:34:39,104 --> 00:34:41,024
Speaker 2: about that. I mean, I've read it, but it's an

606
00:34:41,064 --> 00:34:42,623
Speaker 2: interesting thing of like how that happened?

607
00:34:42,743 --> 00:34:45,943
Speaker 1: Again that comes through having a relationship with the magazine.

608
00:34:46,143 --> 00:34:48,383
Speaker 1: Henry Finder is a wonderful editor at the New York

609
00:34:48,904 --> 00:34:52,623
Speaker 1: The New Yorker has worked with John Franzen for many

610
00:34:52,703 --> 00:34:58,064
Speaker 1: years as has Deborah Treatsman or fiction editor and Jonathan

611
00:34:58,143 --> 00:35:03,343
Speaker 1: and this is rare. Now fiction writers don't do as

612
00:35:03,464 --> 00:35:06,584
Speaker 1: often what they used to do in the sixties and

613
00:35:06,663 --> 00:35:10,223
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. If you were to pick up Esquire

614
00:35:10,263 --> 00:35:12,784
Speaker 1: in those days, for example, which was a great magazine

615
00:35:12,783 --> 00:35:16,703
Speaker 1: at that time, you would see Norman Mayler in Harper's

616
00:35:16,783 --> 00:35:21,424
Speaker 1: covering the March on the Pentagon. You would see James

617
00:35:21,504 --> 00:35:25,904
Speaker 1: Baldwin covering a fight, you know, Sonny List in Floyd Patterson.

618
00:35:25,904 --> 00:35:30,064
Speaker 1: You'd see Sarah Davidson writing about women's liberation and so on.

619
00:35:30,183 --> 00:35:34,584
Speaker 1: So novelists now they do it sometimes, but if it's nonfiction,

620
00:35:34,663 --> 00:35:37,623
Speaker 1: they tend to be memooristic, putting yourself in front of

621
00:35:37,663 --> 00:35:41,424
Speaker 1: an event or an unusual landscape or both. I really

622
00:35:41,504 --> 00:35:46,623
Speaker 1: crave as an editor because a novelist inevitably will bring

623
00:35:46,663 --> 00:35:50,703
Speaker 1: to it something a little different than a journalist, and

624
00:35:50,743 --> 00:35:51,703
Speaker 1: I find that interesting.

625
00:35:51,984 --> 00:35:55,783
Speaker 2: What's a couple of memorable of that nature, memorable stories?

626
00:35:56,104 --> 00:36:00,663
Speaker 1: You mean novelists, Yeah, going places. Sometimes what you'll have

627
00:36:01,344 --> 00:36:06,584
Speaker 1: is somebody who has the skills of both, and it's

628
00:36:06,623 --> 00:36:08,543
Speaker 1: hard to say what they are even if they aren't

629
00:36:08,544 --> 00:36:11,383
Speaker 1: writing fiction. I think if somebody like a nongo Paul

630
00:36:11,743 --> 00:36:16,984
Speaker 1: who has the languages, is not working through a fixer

631
00:36:17,024 --> 00:36:19,864
Speaker 1: and a translator all the time, and he's working in Afghanistan,

632
00:36:20,104 --> 00:36:26,064
Speaker 1: and he's writing about the lives of Afghan women in wartime. Yes,

633
00:36:26,183 --> 00:36:30,904
Speaker 1: it has journalistic qualities and accuracy and all the rest,

634
00:36:31,743 --> 00:36:35,783
Speaker 1: but there's also a feel for the place that's I

635
00:36:35,824 --> 00:36:37,823
Speaker 1: don't know if i'd call it novelistic, but it's at

636
00:36:37,864 --> 00:36:43,424
Speaker 1: a different level than someone can easily achieve when they're

637
00:36:43,544 --> 00:36:47,664
Speaker 1: just arriving and going out on a flight two weeks later.

638
00:36:48,104 --> 00:36:50,544
Speaker 1: That's something I think about a lot, because I've done it.

639
00:36:51,143 --> 00:36:56,104
Speaker 1: I've done the parachute thing we all have in journalism.

640
00:36:56,384 --> 00:36:59,383
Speaker 1: You know. The one time I really didn't is living

641
00:36:59,384 --> 00:37:02,303
Speaker 1: in Moscow for four years, and I got to know

642
00:37:02,384 --> 00:37:07,664
Speaker 1: that place even despite the lack of true fluency in Russian.

643
00:37:07,703 --> 00:37:10,783
Speaker 1: I mean, I can manage. I've experienced the opposite. I

644
00:37:10,824 --> 00:37:13,703
Speaker 1: remember going to thinking I would go to Istanbul and

645
00:37:13,743 --> 00:37:17,623
Speaker 1: write a story about censorship and political situation there, and

646
00:37:17,703 --> 00:37:20,504
Speaker 1: I really struggled because it turns out they have a

647
00:37:20,584 --> 00:37:25,263
Speaker 1: language all of their own, and I really struggled despite having,

648
00:37:25,384 --> 00:37:28,504
Speaker 1: you know, the usual cadre of English speaking you know,

649
00:37:28,504 --> 00:37:31,064
Speaker 1: connections and phone numbers written in your book before you arrive.

650
00:37:31,183 --> 00:37:33,584
Speaker 1: And the piece I did was not any good. I

651
00:37:33,623 --> 00:37:37,424
Speaker 1: did the same thing in Egypt. It was okay. But

652
00:37:38,344 --> 00:37:42,584
Speaker 1: there's a real amount of humility that I think is

653
00:37:42,703 --> 00:37:47,623
Speaker 1: necessary in both foreign correspondence and even intelligent travel of

654
00:37:47,663 --> 00:37:50,904
Speaker 1: any kind, the humility of what you're really getting to

655
00:37:50,944 --> 00:37:51,703
Speaker 1: know and what you're not.

656
00:37:52,263 --> 00:37:55,784
Speaker 2: I really struggle with this time cultural appropriation. I always

657
00:37:55,783 --> 00:37:59,303
Speaker 2: think about it's less of an issue if it's cultural appreciation.

658
00:37:58,944 --> 00:38:03,823
Speaker 1: If it's done with respect, and you're I just I

659
00:38:03,904 --> 00:38:07,263
Speaker 1: just think the banal version of cultural appropriation is bullshit.

660
00:38:07,623 --> 00:38:09,823
Speaker 1: A travel writer like Future done luck, and we both

661
00:38:09,904 --> 00:38:14,623
Speaker 1: know Future goes to the trouble of learning Chinese, of

662
00:38:14,703 --> 00:38:21,544
Speaker 1: living in Western China, of essentially apprenticing herself to Chinese cooks,

663
00:38:21,584 --> 00:38:24,743
Speaker 1: and not for five minutes, but for year after year,

664
00:38:25,944 --> 00:38:31,064
Speaker 1: and so honors Chinese cuisine and Chinese culture by doing that.

665
00:38:31,464 --> 00:38:33,343
Speaker 1: I look at think of a guy named like the

666
00:38:33,424 --> 00:38:36,743
Speaker 1: lady Donald Keen, for example. Donald Keene was an American

667
00:38:36,824 --> 00:38:41,064
Speaker 1: who learned Japanese and became the foremost translator of Japanese

668
00:38:41,064 --> 00:38:44,784
Speaker 1: literature into into English, and he lived there for many,

669
00:38:44,824 --> 00:38:49,424
Speaker 1: many years. Is that cultural appropriation. No, I think it's ridiculous.

670
00:38:49,623 --> 00:38:52,024
Speaker 2: Travel is a privilege, and I think we both agree

671
00:38:52,303 --> 00:38:55,064
Speaker 2: the New Yorker is an incredible way for people. I

672
00:38:55,064 --> 00:38:58,983
Speaker 2: don't like the term chair travel, but it isn't to okay, great,

673
00:38:58,984 --> 00:39:01,263
Speaker 2: well I do, well, then let's say it. And I

674
00:39:01,263 --> 00:39:02,183
Speaker 2: think it's I think, if.

675
00:39:02,104 --> 00:39:04,384
Speaker 1: You know what we're talking about, you're not going to

676
00:39:04,424 --> 00:39:08,384
Speaker 1: be able to go everywhere. And there's endless libraries of

677
00:39:08,984 --> 00:39:14,544
Speaker 1: books and pieces of people who take you to places,

678
00:39:14,663 --> 00:39:19,143
Speaker 1: very specific places with a point of view, and do

679
00:39:19,504 --> 00:39:23,343
Speaker 1: honor to those places, or not or do something else. Well,

680
00:39:23,384 --> 00:39:29,424
Speaker 1: I want the New Yorker to be a worldly vessel.

681
00:39:29,623 --> 00:39:32,464
Speaker 1: You know. The most famous New Yorker cover of all

682
00:39:32,584 --> 00:39:35,823
Speaker 1: time I was published in the seventies by sul Steinberg.

683
00:39:36,183 --> 00:39:38,303
Speaker 1: It was a joke about the way the way New

684
00:39:38,384 --> 00:39:41,263
Speaker 1: Yorkers see the world, which was basically, they only see

685
00:39:41,303 --> 00:39:42,623
Speaker 1: New York and the rest of the world is like

686
00:39:42,623 --> 00:39:45,984
Speaker 1: little slivers Europe and then this little spot called.

687
00:39:45,743 --> 00:39:49,544
Speaker 2: Asia, but it's also Australia is really not forget it

688
00:39:49,623 --> 00:39:50,504
Speaker 2: my thing exactly.

689
00:39:50,743 --> 00:39:55,504
Speaker 1: But it's also a joke about the blinkered aspect of

690
00:39:55,544 --> 00:39:57,823
Speaker 1: being a New Yorker. I don't want that to be

691
00:39:57,904 --> 00:40:01,584
Speaker 1: the case. I want. In fact, I think increasingly we

692
00:40:01,663 --> 00:40:04,263
Speaker 1: want people who've actually lived in these places. So for

693
00:40:04,344 --> 00:40:07,824
Speaker 1: years and years in this country, people covering the Israel

694
00:40:07,864 --> 00:40:13,584
Speaker 1: Palestine conflict, as it's so politely called, have almost invariably

695
00:40:14,384 --> 00:40:18,143
Speaker 1: been At The New Yorker, there was one Israeli amos Alone,

696
00:40:18,183 --> 00:40:22,663
Speaker 1: a wonderful writer, and Americans, very often American Jews. It

697
00:40:22,703 --> 00:40:26,504
Speaker 1: seemed incumbent this time around, after much too long a delay,

698
00:40:26,984 --> 00:40:29,183
Speaker 1: to make sure that the Gaza was covered by a

699
00:40:29,263 --> 00:40:34,504
Speaker 1: multiplicity of voices, and hence we published Mosab Abuta, a

700
00:40:34,584 --> 00:40:39,944
Speaker 1: poet Palestinian Gazen who won a Pulitzer Prize for The

701
00:40:39,984 --> 00:40:44,143
Speaker 1: New Yorker for himself for his essays, and more recently

702
00:40:44,263 --> 00:40:50,544
Speaker 1: Mohammed Mahwish, also from Goza, a wonderful more of a

703
00:40:50,584 --> 00:40:53,504
Speaker 1: journalistic writer than than than Mosab, but has his own

704
00:40:53,584 --> 00:40:57,304
Speaker 1: great qualities, and I think that's important. It's not imperative

705
00:40:58,344 --> 00:41:01,864
Speaker 1: to have a Peruvian write about Peru, you know, a

706
00:41:02,344 --> 00:41:06,344
Speaker 1: Congolese write about Congo. But it's something we one should

707
00:41:06,424 --> 00:41:10,984
Speaker 1: damn well consider as a value.

708
00:41:11,263 --> 00:41:15,424
Speaker 2: Is there a region of the world like Ukraine the

709
00:41:15,464 --> 00:41:18,784
Speaker 2: Middle East? Notwithstanding that you're interested in.

710
00:41:18,783 --> 00:41:22,383
Speaker 1: Right now, the list is limitless. I would say the

711
00:41:22,424 --> 00:41:27,984
Speaker 1: real difficulty these days, in this age of increasing authoritarianism

712
00:41:28,024 --> 00:41:31,504
Speaker 1: and censorship, is that I can think of three huge

713
00:41:31,544 --> 00:41:34,983
Speaker 1: places that are problematic to report, not just those three.

714
00:41:35,464 --> 00:41:38,423
Speaker 1: China is very hard to get a journalistic visa. There

715
00:41:38,424 --> 00:41:40,544
Speaker 1: are some places that a bureau's obviously the New York Times,

716
00:41:40,584 --> 00:41:43,183
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journals on so of it. But to get

717
00:41:43,183 --> 00:41:46,543
Speaker 1: a journalistic visa and go report and without trouble, that's

718
00:41:47,064 --> 00:41:50,303
Speaker 1: infinitely harder than it was ten years ago. Russia infinitely

719
00:41:50,303 --> 00:41:53,183
Speaker 1: harder than it was. And even India, which we got

720
00:41:53,223 --> 00:41:55,343
Speaker 1: so used to, really, which we got so used to

721
00:41:55,384 --> 00:41:58,863
Speaker 1: calling the world's largest democracy, you now have a very

722
00:41:58,864 --> 00:42:03,863
Speaker 1: different leadership and very wary of political journalism. If I

723
00:42:03,944 --> 00:42:06,024
Speaker 1: tell their consulate or the embassy the person is going

724
00:42:06,064 --> 00:42:09,904
Speaker 1: to go do a piece about the environment or travel

725
00:42:10,303 --> 00:42:15,504
Speaker 1: or something relatively benign, they'll get the visa. But if

726
00:42:15,544 --> 00:42:17,464
Speaker 1: we in any way indicate that we're going to go

727
00:42:17,504 --> 00:42:20,944
Speaker 1: do a piece that's considered problematic by the regime, by

728
00:42:20,984 --> 00:42:25,104
Speaker 1: the by the government, that's hard. So that and those

729
00:42:25,143 --> 00:42:30,104
Speaker 1: three places that I just mentioned taken an immense billions

730
00:42:30,143 --> 00:42:32,544
Speaker 1: of people, and God knows how much land mass.

731
00:42:32,944 --> 00:42:36,024
Speaker 2: So if you send someone as a tourist in a

732
00:42:36,064 --> 00:42:38,623
Speaker 2: tourist visa and then wrote something that was in.

733
00:42:38,984 --> 00:42:42,064
Speaker 1: You're asking for trouble. We have done that. I used

734
00:42:42,104 --> 00:42:44,064
Speaker 1: to do that on my trips to Moscow because it

735
00:42:44,263 --> 00:42:46,303
Speaker 1: was the pain. They asked to get a but they

736
00:42:46,384 --> 00:42:49,143
Speaker 1: knew me. It's not like I wasn't in the computer.

737
00:42:50,384 --> 00:42:52,744
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't pull that stunt now. It would raise

738
00:42:52,824 --> 00:42:56,544
Speaker 1: the danger level if they felt like making an arrest,

739
00:42:56,544 --> 00:42:59,104
Speaker 1: they say, oh, you were here practicing journalism, you were

740
00:42:59,104 --> 00:43:01,863
Speaker 1: committing a crime. You know you don't want to end up. Look,

741
00:43:02,064 --> 00:43:05,783
Speaker 1: I'm friends with Evan Gershkovich Wall Street Journal reporter who

742
00:43:05,783 --> 00:43:08,663
Speaker 1: spent over a year in jail in Lubyanka. That's no picnic.

743
00:43:09,504 --> 00:43:10,784
Speaker 1: That's not something to welcome.

744
00:43:11,464 --> 00:43:13,944
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to get my revenge on you, David Remnick,

745
00:43:14,584 --> 00:43:18,943
Speaker 2: when you interviewed me and future Dunlop our friend at

746
00:43:18,944 --> 00:43:22,703
Speaker 2: the New Public Library library lunch several years ago, which

747
00:43:22,743 --> 00:43:25,544
Speaker 2: was one of the more intimidating things I've ever done. Anyway, Well,

748
00:43:25,584 --> 00:43:27,344
Speaker 2: I mean, it's nothing to do with you. It's everything

749
00:43:27,384 --> 00:43:33,344
Speaker 2: to do with those ones that was amazing, Those ladies,

750
00:43:33,344 --> 00:43:35,984
Speaker 2: I can manage. It was more you because I respect

751
00:43:35,984 --> 00:43:36,463
Speaker 2: you so much.

752
00:43:36,504 --> 00:43:40,544
Speaker 1: But so I remember intimidate you. No, no, no, Well you.

753
00:43:40,504 --> 00:43:43,703
Speaker 2: Asked the question which haunts me actually, which was who

754
00:43:43,743 --> 00:43:46,024
Speaker 2: would you most like to cook for? And we were

755
00:43:46,024 --> 00:43:48,504
Speaker 2: talking a lot of sorry and who you said, Well,

756
00:43:48,544 --> 00:43:50,024
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you. But we were talking a

757
00:43:50,024 --> 00:43:53,544
Speaker 2: lot about slow food and how we could amplify good

758
00:43:53,584 --> 00:43:57,704
Speaker 2: habits and regenerative agriculture and you know, promote the idea

759
00:43:57,743 --> 00:43:59,863
Speaker 2: of slow food. And I was very much in my head, well,

760
00:43:59,864 --> 00:44:02,704
Speaker 2: who would be the biggest amplifiers? And I'm not a

761
00:44:03,024 --> 00:44:06,863
Speaker 2: person that watches this particular show or you know, it's

762
00:44:06,904 --> 00:44:09,343
Speaker 2: fine if they do. But I said the Kardashians, which

763
00:44:09,743 --> 00:44:12,584
Speaker 2: you were the Kardashians cook, No, no, not cook the

764
00:44:12,623 --> 00:44:15,263
Speaker 2: reverse that you asked, who would you cook for? And

765
00:44:15,384 --> 00:44:17,463
Speaker 2: I was thinking in this zone of like what would

766
00:44:17,464 --> 00:44:20,663
Speaker 2: be the biggest pop culture amplification. So in my head

767
00:44:20,703 --> 00:44:23,223
Speaker 2: I thought it would play quite well in the audience,

768
00:44:23,263 --> 00:44:25,423
Speaker 2: but it didn't. So it haunts me. So now I've

769
00:44:25,464 --> 00:44:28,104
Speaker 2: got a lightning round of questions for you, which you

770
00:44:28,143 --> 00:44:28,824
Speaker 2: can't be prepared.

771
00:44:28,904 --> 00:44:30,024
Speaker 1: So this is a form of revenge.

772
00:44:30,064 --> 00:44:32,743
Speaker 2: It's my revenge it's my I've been waiting.

773
00:44:32,424 --> 00:44:36,424
Speaker 1: For revenge of the creation exactly, exactly what's your favorite credash?

774
00:44:36,544 --> 00:44:38,383
Speaker 2: I don't have no idea. That's the whole point of John.

775
00:44:38,663 --> 00:44:39,584
Speaker 1: No one from the other.

776
00:44:39,824 --> 00:44:42,143
Speaker 2: I think it was because Timothy Challomey was very much

777
00:44:42,183 --> 00:44:43,544
Speaker 2: front of mine and I was outraged.

778
00:44:43,584 --> 00:44:47,824
Speaker 1: I don't get Timothy Shalamy. But that's a different situation.

779
00:44:47,663 --> 00:44:51,143
Speaker 2: Completely different. I will die on the hill of cold Blessom.

780
00:44:55,344 --> 00:44:57,704
Speaker 2: So where would you always Return?

781
00:44:58,104 --> 00:45:01,384
Speaker 1: I grew up in New Jersey and I looked across

782
00:45:01,424 --> 00:45:04,543
Speaker 1: the bridge with the same kind of yearning that John

783
00:45:04,584 --> 00:45:09,623
Speaker 1: Travolta did in Saturday Night Fever. I wanted to be here.

784
00:45:10,263 --> 00:45:11,144
Speaker 1: I want to be a new.

785
00:45:11,663 --> 00:45:12,864
Speaker 2: Where would you never return?

786
00:45:13,424 --> 00:45:15,663
Speaker 1: I have nothing against it, but I'm not eager to

787
00:45:16,544 --> 00:45:19,424
Speaker 1: return to Hillsdale, New Jersey, where I grew up, perfectly

788
00:45:19,504 --> 00:45:23,543
Speaker 1: nice town. But that's it was where I wanted to leave,

789
00:45:24,384 --> 00:45:28,104
Speaker 1: nice people. But it's not my final destination.

790
00:45:28,663 --> 00:45:30,584
Speaker 2: Favorite almost memorable hotel.

791
00:45:31,024 --> 00:45:34,464
Speaker 1: It's not a beautiful hotel, but I have great affection

792
00:45:36,064 --> 00:45:42,024
Speaker 1: for the Hotel Voltaire on the Cave Voltaire in Paris.

793
00:45:42,183 --> 00:45:44,383
Speaker 1: It was the first place my wife and I went

794
00:45:45,064 --> 00:45:49,064
Speaker 1: on what was called outs from Moscow. Moscow was considered

795
00:45:49,344 --> 00:45:52,464
Speaker 1: a really hard place to live, and so the Washington

796
00:45:52,504 --> 00:45:54,064
Speaker 1: Post and my wife at the New York Times yes

797
00:45:54,104 --> 00:45:57,584
Speaker 1: to find it would go out the minute we got

798
00:45:57,623 --> 00:46:00,263
Speaker 1: to the It was very romantic. The bed was the

799
00:46:00,303 --> 00:46:02,303
Speaker 1: size of the room. It's one of those hotels teeny

800
00:46:02,344 --> 00:46:05,503
Speaker 1: weeny place. And I proceeded to get to match your

801
00:46:05,864 --> 00:46:10,224
Speaker 1: discussing imagery from before the worst case of food poisoning. Ever,

802
00:46:11,104 --> 00:46:15,383
Speaker 1: I have great perverse memories of that, but it was

803
00:46:15,424 --> 00:46:17,143
Speaker 1: it was a wonderful time museum.

804
00:46:17,223 --> 00:46:18,303
Speaker 2: Low cultural institution.

805
00:46:19,064 --> 00:46:22,823
Speaker 1: The most stunning thing I've ever seen. It's just in

806
00:46:23,223 --> 00:46:27,623
Speaker 1: its sheer volume as well as quality. Is the Rembrandts

807
00:46:28,904 --> 00:46:34,783
Speaker 1: at the Hermitage in Saint Petersburg. It's just astonishing. But

808
00:46:35,223 --> 00:46:38,663
Speaker 1: cultural institution. I want to be buried in the third

809
00:46:38,783 --> 00:46:44,183
Speaker 1: row at the Film Forum Downtown. Film form you got

810
00:46:44,183 --> 00:46:46,064
Speaker 1: the third row that juts out, you got the great

811
00:46:46,143 --> 00:46:50,183
Speaker 1: legs leg room, and yet the screen is not you know,

812
00:46:50,223 --> 00:46:51,743
Speaker 1: you don't have to bend your neck and half.

813
00:46:51,743 --> 00:46:55,144
Speaker 2: Favorite memorable meal restaurant would bite taste.

814
00:46:55,223 --> 00:46:57,903
Speaker 1: So I've been in a lot of great restaurants all

815
00:46:57,984 --> 00:47:01,623
Speaker 1: up and down the the you know food chain. I

816
00:47:03,143 --> 00:47:05,423
Speaker 1: had a meal with evan Os Nos and my son

817
00:47:06,263 --> 00:47:09,903
Speaker 1: Noah and the Mexican Ambassador to China where we went

818
00:47:09,944 --> 00:47:13,623
Speaker 1: to this great picking place in Beijing. But I have

819
00:47:13,743 --> 00:47:19,424
Speaker 1: to say my favorite hangout is my neighborhood hangout Barney

820
00:47:19,464 --> 00:47:22,463
Speaker 1: Greengrass on eighty six and Amster. Fantastic there, I've been

821
00:47:23,143 --> 00:47:23,703
Speaker 1: pretty good.

822
00:47:23,904 --> 00:47:31,984
Speaker 2: Fantastic. Two last questions, one forgetting work life complete fantasy.

823
00:47:32,464 --> 00:47:35,383
Speaker 2: Where would you like to spend a weekend, a week,

824
00:47:35,464 --> 00:47:36,424
Speaker 2: a month, a year.

825
00:47:36,663 --> 00:47:39,704
Speaker 1: A weekend, a week, a month and a year.

826
00:47:39,984 --> 00:47:41,784
Speaker 2: Is there all different reasons?

827
00:47:41,824 --> 00:47:44,264
Speaker 1: You know very well said I'd like to take another

828
00:47:44,384 --> 00:47:47,663
Speaker 1: crack at Barbados after the hurricane incident, but just a

829
00:47:47,703 --> 00:47:52,464
Speaker 1: weekend because I'm playing it safe. A week a week

830
00:47:52,623 --> 00:47:57,623
Speaker 1: is just enough beach it just at about day four

831
00:47:57,824 --> 00:48:00,904
Speaker 1: I'm starting to get bored. In day five, I'm ready.

832
00:48:00,944 --> 00:48:02,863
Speaker 1: I'm already making plans and how I'm going to get

833
00:48:02,864 --> 00:48:07,984
Speaker 1: to the airport more quickly. So that's fine. I'm especially

834
00:48:09,104 --> 00:48:12,544
Speaker 1: enamored of the beach of my child, which is Cape

835
00:48:12,584 --> 00:48:14,623
Speaker 1: Cod you know, the very end of Cape Cod, so

836
00:48:14,944 --> 00:48:20,783
Speaker 1: province dontruro well fleet sort of thing. A month again.

837
00:48:20,824 --> 00:48:22,703
Speaker 1: You want me to be far away, No, you.

838
00:48:22,623 --> 00:48:25,144
Speaker 2: Can be wherever you'd like. I mean, if it's a month,

839
00:48:25,544 --> 00:48:28,984
Speaker 2: is enough time to report something in depth or to

840
00:48:29,024 --> 00:48:29,703
Speaker 2: a certain kind of.

841
00:48:29,743 --> 00:48:32,264
Speaker 1: Day it is, I would you know, I really would

842
00:48:32,263 --> 00:48:35,663
Speaker 1: love to have a month in Moscow. And I say

843
00:48:35,703 --> 00:48:38,663
Speaker 1: that with a you know, kind of wistful regret that,

844
00:48:38,743 --> 00:48:41,343
Speaker 1: at age sixty seven, it is very likely that I'll

845
00:48:41,344 --> 00:48:43,024
Speaker 1: never be able to go again. The last time I

846
00:48:43,064 --> 00:48:46,464
Speaker 1: was there was to cover the Winter Olympics of twenty fourteen,

847
00:48:46,904 --> 00:48:53,464
Speaker 1: and the day after leaving, that's that's when Putin's first

848
00:48:53,504 --> 00:48:58,703
Speaker 1: committed war against Ukraine. We forget against Crimea. So I

849
00:48:58,743 --> 00:49:00,984
Speaker 1: would love to be able to go back to Russia,

850
00:49:01,544 --> 00:49:04,663
Speaker 1: so much freer Russia. But you know, and then a

851
00:49:04,783 --> 00:49:09,784
Speaker 1: year junior abroad. Huh. Every time I go to Indian

852
00:49:09,864 --> 00:49:12,783
Speaker 1: it's only been a few times. I'm stunned by its

853
00:49:12,864 --> 00:49:15,104
Speaker 1: multiplicity and how little I know of it, and how

854
00:49:15,223 --> 00:49:18,984
Speaker 1: fantastically interesting it is, and how various it is no

855
00:49:19,104 --> 00:49:21,464
Speaker 1: less various in this country. So maybe that would be it.

856
00:49:22,223 --> 00:49:25,623
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the last question is, you know, this is

857
00:49:25,663 --> 00:49:28,504
Speaker 2: called traveling through, So I wanted to ask you what

858
00:49:28,504 --> 00:49:29,823
Speaker 2: you're traveling through right now.

859
00:49:30,263 --> 00:49:34,263
Speaker 1: Daniel Deronda, the second greatest novel of George Elliott. George

860
00:49:34,263 --> 00:49:38,223
Speaker 1: Elliott is probably the smartest in the most intellectually various

861
00:49:38,864 --> 00:49:42,703
Speaker 1: novelist in the English language. And you know, people read

862
00:49:42,743 --> 00:49:45,984
Speaker 1: Middle March, they write books about Middle March. They stole

863
00:49:46,384 --> 00:49:49,143
Speaker 1: Middle March, and for good reason. Daniel Deronda is my

864
00:49:49,504 --> 00:49:53,864
Speaker 1: current adventure, and it's a novel that I well, it

865
00:49:53,984 --> 00:49:56,584
Speaker 1: seemingly won't end, but I don't want it to either.

866
00:49:56,464 --> 00:49:59,263
Speaker 2: Okay, David, I can't thank you enough. It's a great

867
00:49:59,263 --> 00:50:00,784
Speaker 2: owner and privilege.

868
00:50:00,824 --> 00:50:14,663
Speaker 1: I really appreciate being here, David, and here now