1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm t T and I'm Zakiyah and this is Dope Labs. 2 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: science with pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship. 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: We've been seeing some of our favorite you know, media stars, 5 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: are some of our favorite black girl media stars getting 6 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: kind of bullied on the internet. Yes, I mean from 7 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: Ayisha Curry talking about how she is struggling with being 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: thrust into this whole world of being Stephen Curry's wife, 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: very very young and being a mother and not really 10 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: being able to find herself. Serena Williams with her foray 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: into the golp Ones, Kiki Palmer, people have really been 12 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: ganging up on her. It just feels like the list 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: goes on and on, and black women and media are 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: never given the race that a lot of their white 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: counterparts get. And I think that that is something that 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: is systemic. We see it across a lot of cultures 17 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: where the darker your skin is, the harder people are 18 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: on you, and it just makes living in your day 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: to day more precarious because you are hyper aware of 20 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: how you're existing in every space. The darker your skin is. Yeah, 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: I think, you know, One of the things we've talked 22 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: about is the democratization of media. It used to be 23 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: television and just a few channels, but with opening up 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: access to share messages and the ability to respond to 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: the people sharing messages, we didn't start fresh. We came 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: with the same drama we've had all these years ago, 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: your mama's drama, your grandmama's drama, your great grandmother Listen, 28 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 1: it's still here mm hm exactly. And so I think 29 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: when we think about this, I think we kind of 30 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: want to know what is the path, what has the 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: path look like, and where should we be looking for 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: it to go. I think that was a great what 33 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: do we know and what do we want to know? 34 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: I think we can jump straight into the resitation. Our 35 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: guest today is icon Mikayla Angela Davis. She has a 36 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: long career in fashion and journalism. If you feel like 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: you don't know who this is, google her you know. 38 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 2: Who she is. 39 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: She's an image activist who describes her work as examining 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: how identity, race, gender, beauty, and style intersect with black 41 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: culture and mainstream media. She co wrote the bestseller The 42 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: Meaning of Mari Carrie and co created the documentary series 43 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: The Hairtails, which puts a spotlight on black hair and 44 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: identity in contemporary culture. Mikayla has won a ton of 45 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: awards and is a living legend. Mikayla, thank you so 46 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: much for joining us today. Let's jump straight into your book, Tenderheaded. 47 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: Your book starts with the retelling of your first day 48 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: of second grade when a group of older girls surrounded 49 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: you and had a girl to hold a pair of scissors, 50 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,239 Speaker 1: and then they tried to cut your hair. I don't 51 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: want to give away too much because it is a 52 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: great story, but just no, your brain survived the attempt 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: at jumping. Can you talk to us about how that 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: has shifted your perspective of what it means to be 55 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: a black woman? 56 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 2: The Hairtail. It's interesting because I've been using hair as 57 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: a thesis as an organizing principle to talk about black 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 2: women's identity, humanity, and culture. My first day of school 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: at all black school, that I couldn't wait. I couldn't 60 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: wait to be with all black girls, right I was little, 61 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 2: you know, and having that near death experience around my hair. 62 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: You know, that was a pivotal moment because the story 63 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: could have been these black girls are mean they don't 64 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 2: like me because I'm light skinned and I got long hair, 65 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: and that's it, right, or the choice I made was 66 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 2: something's going on with us, and they are not gonna 67 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: cut me out of the Black girls society. I'm gonna 68 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 2: watch my bat hence on the cover, you see how 69 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: my hair is doubled up. I did that after that 70 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 2: incident because I'm like, they're not gonna cut my hair, 71 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: but they're also not gonna cut me out. And so 72 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: that kind of became a way of being because I 73 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: knew that my hair and my skin was complicated and 74 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: how it confounded and complicated and triggered things in other 75 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 2: Black girls. And it was one of the reasons why 76 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 2: I wanted to layer in history also in Tender Headed, 77 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,119 Speaker 2: so that we can also understand the context in which 78 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: black women were organized. It was there was strategy around 79 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 2: us being in conflict with each other, right, there's policy, 80 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: there was propaganda, there were practices and laws around color 81 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: cast system, and so it was really important for me 82 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: to kind of dig into that history. 83 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: For those of you that don't know, colorism is a 84 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: racial distinction within the African American community that further fragments 85 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: blackness based on skin tone, and there's a hierarchy associated 86 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: with your proximity to whiteness. So the more Eurocentric your 87 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: features are, the more privilege you receive. So we want 88 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: to talk to you, MICHAELA, about the history of colorism 89 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: and how it showed up in your life and in 90 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: your work. 91 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: I grew up in DC and I went to high 92 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: school at Duke Gallingy School of the Arts, and so 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: that was a very different experience. Had I gone to 94 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: another kind of school, I probably would have experienced the 95 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: color cast system because it gets around teens. But we 96 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: were united around being artists, so I didn't get that. 97 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: It really came to fruition once I started working in 98 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 2: media and working in fashion, because I'm very clear that 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:22,039 Speaker 2: my proximity to whiteness and my how I presented got 100 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: me to be in certain spaces in a certain way. 101 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: And I'm also aware of the legacy of people like 102 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 2: Angela Davis, other light skinned radical women who we can't 103 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: go in and change the DNA, but when we get 104 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:41,479 Speaker 2: in a room, we're gonna bring as many black girls 105 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: with like. So I'm from that school. So that was 106 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: part of why I wanted history in this book. For instance, 107 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 2: The first quote unquote American it girl was an enslaved 108 00:06:55,960 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: child named Ida who was very, very, very fair. Abolitionists 109 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 2: took a photo of her with a pretty dress, her 110 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: hair slicked down, her hand, on a stack of books 111 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: and sold this image and basically was saying slavery was 112 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: wrong because look how close to us it can get. 113 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: Not slavery is wrong because it's a violent, brutal crime 114 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: against humanity. But there are some enslaved people that are 115 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 2: so light, so close to white. So that began the 116 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: propaganda of light skinned closer to the master society, closer 117 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 2: to the freedom of black people, like this notion that 118 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: we could save the race. But even more diabolical TTY 119 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: is that by the end of the Antebellum era, ten 120 00:07:55,400 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: percent of all formally enslaved people were at the term 121 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: I'm going to use the terms mulatto right, So that 122 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: means there were six hundred thousand empirical pieces of evidence 123 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: of serial rape against black women. So that population was 124 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 2: at the time more disgraced than the enslaved that were 125 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 2: not missed because they were proof of rape. There was 126 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: no other explanation for their existence. And these are children 127 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: that came out of black women's bodies, and that's often 128 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: lost in the conversation. Right, these are still children of 129 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: black women, and so what happened was in an attempt 130 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 2: to sort of reshape the narrative out of being in 131 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: this shame space of product of rape, it ballooned into 132 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 2: that they were better and privileged. And that ballooning of 133 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 2: that propaganda at the time. This is media. So it 134 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: started in the antebellum era of selling this notion that 135 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: light skin and particularly girls were favorable. So that's what 136 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 2: we're having to grapple with. We're grappling with history and 137 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: media and propaganda. 138 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: So with this history of colorism, you saw it continue 139 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: to manifest throughout your work. Mainstream media was prioritizing lighter 140 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: skinned women. 141 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: I remember in the time when I was working music videos, 142 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: you could not cast a brown skinned girl and there 143 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: was no response, no public response to that. So we've 144 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: made progress because at least there's a glad bag and 145 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: there's a record, and there's some education. But what I 146 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: offer this, is it a privilege to be at odds 147 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: with your sister? Is it a privilege to be set apart? 148 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: So how do we make progress and shift the way 149 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: that things are. 150 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 2: So I'm hoping we have more complex conversations around these notions, 151 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: around colorism and privilege. What I hope this book does 152 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: is get us in conversation with each other, because black 153 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 2: women are going to save this world if it can 154 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 2: be saved, absolutely, and so we need to heal ourselves. 155 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: It feels new and fresh when folks are saying, oh, 156 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 1: Lupita Nyungo is so beautiful, and so is Isa Ray, 157 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: and so are these dark skinned black women, and that 158 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: there was a time where this it was just not 159 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 1: possible to be characterized as beautiful when you were dark skinned. 160 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: And so if feels like we're making those incremental changes, 161 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: but then it also feels like we're still being held 162 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: back when it comes to the images that we see. 163 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: And you are an image activist, can you unpack what 164 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: that means to you today, especially in a media ecosystem 165 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: that is driven by algorithms, clicks and the spectacle of 166 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 1: it all. 167 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: I a long time ago put all my chips on 168 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: black women, like all of them. And if there's any 169 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 2: group in this population that is going to work to 170 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 2: become whole, it's black women. So I'm very encouraged by 171 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 2: the Independent media that black women are making and making, 172 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,679 Speaker 2: so whether it's on Instagram or TikTok, there's so many 173 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: other places to go. It's not just back in the 174 00:11:55,559 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 2: day where it's like just MTV. You know, you were 175 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: like where big pop culture was happening. Because that's what 176 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: we're really talking about, right, this pop culture and how 177 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 2: it influences us. And you know, I was making magazines 178 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: like Vibe and Honey and magazines were Instagram and so 179 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: it's so much to consume. And I'm still exploring this 180 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: because it's challenging these times because it's just so much, 181 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: so fast, and black women are being targeted in a 182 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 2: way like if we And this is also where history 183 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 2: is so instructive. I think part of our revolution and 184 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: liberation and healing is coming together irl, like in real life, 185 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: you know, putting down the media, putting down the phones. 186 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,079 Speaker 2: Just you know what brunch looks like. You get a 187 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: brunch and you see all these black girls dressed up. 188 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: You just get like something and you just flutters and flourishes. 189 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: The vibes are always just right. 190 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: Yes, So we have to take care of our mental 191 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 2: and emotional self because it's tough right now. 192 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, you know, you briefly mentioned your work with magazines, 193 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: and I want to talk about that a little bit 194 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: because I feel like magazines are the lost art. I 195 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: am old enough to remember picking up a Vibe magazine 196 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: my uncle used to have them at his house, or 197 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: picking up Essence and living through the pages and just 198 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: like loving every bit of it. And it was also 199 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 1: the first time I was really seeing like black women 200 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: high fashion shoots. 201 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 2: You know. 202 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: And in the book you talk about the rise and 203 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: challenges of black media institutions like Vibe and Essence. Can 204 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,079 Speaker 1: you talk more about why that form of black media 205 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: was so important during that time and what it meant 206 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: to Black folks who were experiencing those magazines. 207 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:58,720 Speaker 2: It was so powerful because for generations, even though Black 208 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: people knew they were innovators and culture specifically not only 209 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: That's why I love Evan like vintage Ebony will give 210 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 2: you life. And God blessed the Astrogates who has kept 211 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: the archive in Chicago. Bless that artist, because it's really 212 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: important to see all the black progress and innovation. But 213 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: in culture, we had never had a record that we 214 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: wrote specifically, and hip hop was that rocket, right because 215 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: we had money, we had some positionality. We had some agency, 216 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: so we had a chance to in our own tongues, 217 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: with our own eyes create you know, si Like while 218 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 2: there was a rolling Stone and a spin and a billboard, 219 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: there's vibe, you know. And so it was very powerful 220 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: that you didn't have to wait to be anointed to 221 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: be on the color of Rolling Stone as a black artist, 222 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: and that we would talk critically about Snoop or right 223 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: really like spent a month investigating Lauren Hill. That was important. 224 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: And we had something to run to. I remember back 225 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: in the day, like you would run to get your 226 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 2: write old magazine, but that was like people you know 227 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: this this was like critical journalism, top rate photography, new trends. 228 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: We were the leaders. We got in front of pop culture. 229 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: So it was monumental and it was too short. But 230 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: I actually have been in the process of writing the book, 231 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 2: especially that part, experienced some grief around the fact that 232 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: we don't have a town square in media in that way, 233 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: like there's lots of small, great pockets, whether they're podcasts 234 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,479 Speaker 2: or subjects or whatever, like you would look to essence. 235 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: Right, we aren't all coalescing around one big correct. 236 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm very I'm sad that we don't have 237 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: a vibe or a honey or an essence that has 238 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: a real presence in the culture. 239 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: So if someone is listening to you right now and 240 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: they're saying I want to get into media, whether it's 241 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: social media, print, editorial, you know, whatever the format, what 242 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: advice do you have for them. 243 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we're actually trying to do in the 244 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 2: work right now because part of writing the book. And 245 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: this is just my perspective, right Like, there are a 246 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: lot of other I'm sure there're gonna be some editors 247 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 2: are going to come for me because I came for them. 248 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: But I just wanted something on record that we could 249 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 2: reflect on together because I don't know. What I do 250 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: know is that we're always seeds, right like, we always 251 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 2: find something else. I just don't know what it is. 252 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 2: But part of why I wanted a record of what 253 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 2: happened from what I saw to partly be a cautionary tale. 254 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 2: The money, the patriarchy, the lack of support. When I 255 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: was contributing to Vanity. 256 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: Fair, I was just about to bring that up. 257 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 2: More than fifty percent of their photoshoots would be canned. 258 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: The amount of money that they put in the trash 259 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 2: was my entire photo budget for Honey, So there was 260 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 2: no room for experimentation. There's no room for black girl imagination. 261 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: We just had to hit the track and win before 262 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 2: they even saw we were out there running. And the 263 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 2: advertising industry is notoriously racist. Hip hop helped break some 264 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: of that up, but as you see it for tracks 265 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 2: like there's a moment where we're hot, and you know, 266 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: I had several friends this is kind of bleak, but 267 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: I had several friends that said, like George Floyd was 268 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: their executive producer, Like they got their shows done or 269 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,959 Speaker 2: their organizations funded because of George Floyd. And the guilt 270 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 2: not that's over, they're taking DEI. So we're always vulnerable 271 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 2: if we only look to establishment, and that's why history 272 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: is really really instructive. Absolutely, so I hope to have 273 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 2: many of these cross gen conversations so we can have 274 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 2: some strategy about how to build and maybe how to 275 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 2: perhaps recover and restore. Very early on, I started an 276 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: esthetic practice of looking at life and beauty not through 277 00:18:55,359 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: a Eurocentric lens. That is harder than it sounds, particularly 278 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: with you know, if I'm coming of age in the 279 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 2: eighties and nineties and I'm looking at Vogue because I 280 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: was a fashion girl, like I looked to that fashion 281 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 2: in art. There's a photographer that I referenced a lot 282 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: in the book, Ruven Fonnador, who's brilliant and he's Colombian, 283 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: and he too didn't work from a Eurocentric lens. So 284 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: what that means, how that plays into real life or 285 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: when I was contributing to Vanity Fair, is that when 286 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: we and we often did things together, we did not 287 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: create images through their lens and they didn't quite know it. 288 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 2: They knew something cool was happening, but we also did 289 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 2: it at the level of craft that they were accustomed to, right, 290 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 2: meaning our tech nicole, our craft was on par and 291 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 2: maybe even superior. So if one is wanting to work 292 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: in the mainstream wherever that is fashion, law, tech, science, 293 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: come with your own lens and look, you know, because 294 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 2: science and science however, the scientist is right, you know 295 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: what I mean, the body of the person through which 296 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 2: this information flows. Absolutely So I think that that was 297 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 2: the strategy and I worked on it for years and 298 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: again it wasn't easy. So that's important for us to 299 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 2: consume the beauty of us, whether it's art, whether it's 300 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: soul trained whether it's reading books. 301 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: You know, Michaela, I think this is such a great point. 302 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: I think something that folks grapple with is being one 303 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: of one in a room and trying to push the 304 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: envelope and being a little afraid of being ostracized because 305 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: they're coming with a different perspective that might not be 306 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 1: accepted by the mainstream media. 307 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 2: What are you afraid of? Because we're so familiar in 308 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: white spaces. We know their history, we know their institutions, 309 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: we know their tricks. Why are we bothered? And not 310 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 2: so much bothered because it's annoying because it is the 311 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: same tricks, But why are we afraid? We know who 312 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 2: they are? They don't know who we are. We have 313 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: a lot of power. If we didn't, they wouldn't try 314 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 2: to take our vote. If they didn't, they wouldn't try 315 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 2: to take our jobs. If they didn't, they wouldn't try 316 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: to take our titles. 317 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: I really loved everything that Michaela had to say. It 318 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: really gives a fresh perspective on her because she's definitely 319 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: a black woman who I feel like I've seen my 320 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: whole life. And to hear her stories, her personal stories 321 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: about her life and the work that she's done, and 322 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: how as a photo activist, how she's been able to 323 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: kind of disrupt the system. I think it's really encouraging 324 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,480 Speaker 1: because it doesn't end with her. She's passing the torch 325 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: on to the next generation and we can already see 326 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,120 Speaker 1: the shifts happening right in front of us. So true. 327 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,119 Speaker 1: Tt SO, I think when we look at media and 328 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: we're on social media or looking in magazines or watching movies, 329 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: that we should always keep in mind that there's a 330 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: long history of the treatment of women of color, specifically 331 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: black women, that we also need to be remembering. And 332 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: so when you see a black woman being talked about 333 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: in the media, ask yourself a few questions like is 334 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: she being treated fairly? Is this the same treatment that 335 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: a white woman would receive? And if you don't feel 336 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: like it is, call it out because this is how 337 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: we make strides. It's when people say this isn't right 338 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: and we need to be different, we need to be better. 339 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: You can find us on X and Instagram at Dope 340 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: Labs podcast tt is on X and Instagram at dr 341 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: Underscore t Sho, and you can find zakiya at z 342 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: said so. Dope Labs is a production of Lamanada Media. 343 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Keegan Zimma and our producer is 344 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 1: Issara Asevez. Dope Labs is sound designed, edited and mixed 345 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 1: by James Farber. Limanada Media's Vice President of Partnerships and 346 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: Production is Jackie Dansinger. Executive producer from iHeart Podcast is 347 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvil. Marketing lead is Alison Kanter. Original music composed 348 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex sugi Ura, with 349 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: additional music by Elijah Harvey. Dope Labs is executive produced 350 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: by us T T show Dia and Zakiah Watki