Speaker 1: If you want to support there Are No Girls on
Speaker 1: the Internet, please check out our patreon. There you can
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Speaker 1: com slash tangoti and thanks so much. As someone who
Speaker 1: thinks about the intersection of gender, sex and technology, where
Speaker 1: do you.
Speaker 2: Think we are headed to hell? There are No Girls
Speaker 2: on the Internet.
Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm brigit
Speaker 1: tad and this is there are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: People who engage in sex work face hostility online, but
Speaker 1: they're also the ones who remain at the forefront of
Speaker 1: understanding technology, the Internet and the role that it plays
Speaker 1: in all of our lives from increased online surveillance and
Speaker 1: legislation like Cesta Fasta, it's people who engage in sex
Speaker 1: work who are often sounding the alarm about how online
Speaker 1: harms might start by targeting one community like sex workers,
Speaker 1: but will later manifest for all of us. So in
Speaker 1: conversations about the future of the Internet and technology, it's
Speaker 1: critical that all marginalized voices, including sex workers, are included.
Speaker 3: My name is Olivia Snow. I am a dominatrix and
Speaker 3: a research fellow at UCLA's Center for Critical Internet Inquiry.
Speaker 1: Olivia studies sex work, technology and policy and writes about
Speaker 1: it on the Internet. She's been ducks and harassed online
Speaker 1: for it too, but that hasn't stopped her from centering
Speaker 1: sex workers in conversations about the Internet and technology.
Speaker 2: So, something that I love.
Speaker 1: About your work is that you really like lean into
Speaker 1: and interrogate this intersection of sex work and technology in
Speaker 1: the Internet. What has that been like, Like, why do
Speaker 1: you think it is so important for people who care
Speaker 1: about the Internet and technology to understand how sex workers
Speaker 1: show up on the Internet, how sex workers use technology,
Speaker 1: and how has that been sort of prescient about where
Speaker 1: we're headed next. I feel like sex workers are sort
Speaker 1: of like they know what the fuck is happening on
Speaker 1: the Internet and where we're going shit that like, as
Speaker 1: they are constantly calling stuff correctly, how is that?
Speaker 3: I remember I was on the subway home from work
Speaker 3: at like green morning, and I was going through I
Speaker 3: think Facebook and on my people you may know, all
Speaker 3: of my coworkers were on there, and like we never
Speaker 3: we didn't know each other's real names, Like I don't
Speaker 3: I don't want to know any other sex workers real names,
Speaker 3: especially for in like a double session. You know, I
Speaker 3: don't want to be like Mistress Megan or whatever, like
Speaker 3: her name's like Emerald or something. So I was like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, Facebook is doxing me, like docxing on
Speaker 3: my cook I mean, I guess not docxing because docxing
Speaker 3: means with malicious intent, but well maybe, but still, and
Speaker 3: you know, it was obvious, like okay, like we're in
Speaker 3: close physical proximity, we're sharing the same like Wi Fi network,
Speaker 3: Like it makes sense that you know we're together twelve
Speaker 3: hours a day. But you know, that's when I started,
Speaker 3: really I don't know noticing how harmful, just like being
Speaker 3: on the internet is, even if you're or having a
Speaker 3: cell phone even back in like the nineties and the
Speaker 3: early thousands, for getting their big accounts closed for doing
Speaker 3: sex work, which like like how did they know, you know,
Speaker 3: even like before cell phones, Like how the fuck would
Speaker 3: like Chase Bank know that the money you're depositing is
Speaker 3: from sex work and like try like okay, you know,
Speaker 3: if you're depositing a certain amount of money and a
Speaker 3: certain uh like size of bill at a certain atm
Speaker 3: at a certain time, then like you're either selling drugs
Speaker 3: or you're selling sex.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read your piece about or I've read pieces
Speaker 1: about like being today being banned from platforms like Venmore
Speaker 1: or even grub hub. Hor It's like I'm just trying
Speaker 1: to get a chicken sandwich, Like I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: get lunch. And I guess I wonder is there a
Speaker 1: lot of the people that I talked to on this show,
Speaker 1: they are marginalized people who have been raising the alarms
Speaker 1: about things on the internet, And oftentimes it's like this
Speaker 1: harm is going to impact a marginalized group, and then
Speaker 1: it's going to impact everybody. Is there a vibe that
Speaker 1: you feel where it's like a constant kind of I
Speaker 1: told you so, or a constant kind of like I
Speaker 1: hate to be right all the time where folks engagement. Yes,
Speaker 1: we are like constantly talking about these increased levels of
Speaker 1: surveillance and digital judgment and have been kind.
Speaker 2: Of for a while.
Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And like you know, I used to really
Speaker 3: love being like a too so because I'm like a
Speaker 3: kind of an asshole, but like I don't love it now,
Speaker 3: I hate it. I'm not working on an article right
Speaker 3: now where like Canary and the coal Mine is the
Speaker 3: metaphor that's usually used, but like that depends on the
Speaker 3: miner actually listening to the canary and getting the fuck
Speaker 3: out of the mind doesn't happen. It's more of a
Speaker 3: like Cassandra kind of situation where we're like god like
Speaker 3: and you know, people figure making it up. So like
Speaker 3: I got banned from Door to Ash about a year ago,
Speaker 3: and I tweeted about it went like semi viral, and
Speaker 3: a bunch of sex in my reply is like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, this happened to me, Like what the fuck?
Speaker 3: I'm not a bunch of uh non sex workers were like, well, hi,
Speaker 3: I'll know, how are you sure? Like like maybe it
Speaker 3: was something else like did you violate terms of service
Speaker 3: or whatever? And you know, like it was abundantly obvious
Speaker 3: to me because I've also been you know, I've been
Speaker 3: kicked off that, I've been kicked off cash up, I've
Speaker 3: been kicked off field, which is weird because that's like
Speaker 3: a kink sligh. Really, I've been kicked off, and you
Speaker 3: know it's it's TikTok, like a budget. I'm my TikTok
Speaker 3: account has been suspended like I think twice, and I've
Speaker 3: never even posted anything on TikTok ever, Like at all.
Speaker 3: So it's clear to me that there's some type of
Speaker 3: data sharing happening, whether it's you know that you're in
Speaker 3: the same device, whether you know other whatever details. I
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm not the kind of.
Speaker 2: Doctor, but.
Speaker 3: You know, an algorithmic sweep of high risk account then
Speaker 3: sex workers are going to get caught up in it, which,
Speaker 3: like I mean, also, I feel like responses, at least
Speaker 3: to my personally, losing door Dash was kind of like like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I'll make you a new account, or like cow, could
Speaker 3: I send you a sandwich? Like no, that's not the point.
Speaker 3: The point is that like fucking door Dash is like
Speaker 3: somehow privy to this information. It's frustrating, I guess to
Speaker 3: I mean, and I don't know if it's necessarily gaslighting
Speaker 3: because like I guess, people really do believe that I'm
Speaker 3: you know, making it up or whatever, or like this
Speaker 3: can't be true. You know, door Dash isn't. Well, actually, no, DoorDash.
Speaker 3: I remember when this went viral and the New York
Speaker 3: Post reached out to DoorDash. They were like, no, we
Speaker 3: would never So that's gaslighting. But yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 3: it's it's Yeah, it's frustrated.
Speaker 1: It's one of those things that people really have to
Speaker 1: listen to and center marginalized people.
Speaker 2: Sex workers are very much included.
Speaker 1: When you're thinking about the future of the Internet, and
Speaker 1: so much of your work is like speaks to that
Speaker 1: and looks to that, and like, you know, when we're
Speaker 1: thinking about the kind of Internet that we want to have,
Speaker 1: making sure that those voices are centered. Like you know,
Speaker 1: when we have legislation like the Kids Online Safety Act
Speaker 1: that you know has so much bipartisan support. When you
Speaker 1: hear things like, oh, this is a law to legislate
Speaker 1: the Internet in order to protect.
Speaker 2: Kids, protect kids, what comes to your mind? Like what
Speaker 2: do you think when you hear stuff like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if you had to ask me
Speaker 3: that question six years ago, I'd be like, we should
Speaker 3: protect kids. Like literally nobody, at least nobody in Congress
Speaker 3: gives a single shit about protecting kids. And like half
Speaker 3: these people were on like the Epstein book, like they
Speaker 3: they do not care. It's clearly like a smokescreen for
Speaker 3: increased surveillance. To me, like that's all I think at
Speaker 3: this point. I do not believe anyone. I mean, well,
Speaker 3: I mean we've seen it, you know, in other sectors
Speaker 3: like the like rising homophobia that I personally haven't seen
Speaker 3: since like two thousand and four. That's also you know,
Speaker 3: protecting kids from like groomers or whatever the fuck.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's just I I don't even think that that people
Speaker 3: making those claims at this point are doing it. It's
Speaker 3: like I don't I don't think they're doing in good
Speaker 3: faith period. You know, this is always and you know
Speaker 3: it's not necessarily about sex workers, but yeah, this is
Speaker 3: always about increased surveillance. They do not care about kids.
Speaker 3: If they care about kids, they be working on guns.
Speaker 3: Are they working on guns? No? So like that's yeah,
Speaker 3: it's and it keeps working. Like also, like I mean,
Speaker 3: I know, I'm like relatively quite privileged, Like I'm, oh,
Speaker 3: white woman with a PhD. Like that's pretty high up there,
Speaker 3: and I often get pushback that's like like you're a privilege.
Speaker 3: Y'm like, well, yeah exactly, and you're still not listening,
Speaker 3: Like I mean, imagine if I weren't, like then we
Speaker 3: wouldn't even be having this argument because you wouldn't like
Speaker 3: deign to bother with me.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 2: At our back.
Speaker 1: Roe versus Wad was overturned almost a year ago, and
Speaker 1: since then we've all had to navigate what online privacy
Speaker 1: really means when simply accessing information online about abortion can
Speaker 1: be used as evidence to put people behind bars. Now,
Speaker 1: this is something that sex workers know all too well.
Speaker 1: That same vast network of online surveillance and criminalization used
Speaker 1: to target sex workers, also it threatens people who need abortions.
Speaker 1: In a piece for Wired called are You Ready to
Speaker 1: be Surveilled Like a sex worker? Olivia points out that
Speaker 1: this post row world is simply the next and a
Speaker 1: larger campaign to expand state surveillance and e roade the
Speaker 1: right to privacy, a campaign that sex workers have been
Speaker 1: fighting for decades. Do you see a connection between sex
Speaker 1: work and abortion rights as it pertains to the Internet
Speaker 1: and the way it's legislated?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean just like the ways that they're tracked. Like, okay,
Speaker 3: so this is going to be an underground economy. You're
Speaker 3: going to have to use cash. They're also going to
Speaker 3: be monitoring how you use cash. You know, you're you're
Speaker 3: like geolocation will be weaponized, you know, like facial recognition
Speaker 3: technology and at like traffic stops might be used to
Speaker 3: identify you, Like shit, that you thought was private is
Speaker 3: it in a lot of the same ways, not like
Speaker 3: almost all the same ways. And I mean it's all
Speaker 3: just you know, uh, trying to restrict what women do
Speaker 3: with their bodies, you know, and like regardless of if that,
Speaker 3: you know, is the actual outcome, I think that's the
Speaker 3: intent on one hand. On the other hand, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I don't. I also don't care what the intent is
Speaker 3: because like, like I don't want to waste my time
Speaker 3: being like, but why is fascism like like not the point?
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I see them as entirely connected. I mean,
Speaker 3: same with with the like anti trans legislation, Like it's
Speaker 3: all about restricting what people do with their own bodies.
Speaker 1: It feels like we're in a much more dire place
Speaker 1: because the last time that you know, before like in
Speaker 1: the seventies, before Roe was the law of the land,
Speaker 1: we didn't have this like vast surveillance network.
Speaker 2: We all didn't carry GPS devices in our pockets.
Speaker 1: And I feel like one of the ways that we're
Speaker 1: kind of worse off today is that there has been
Speaker 1: this sort of piece by piece tacit.
Speaker 2: In like normalization of that.
Speaker 1: But I think that we have this relationship with tech
Speaker 1: companies that like it's fine that they surveil us, and
Speaker 1: actually maybe it's good, like I have nothing to hide,
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna do anything wrong, like right where we
Speaker 1: don't even think about it anymore. Like when Ring released
Speaker 1: that show that was like Ring Nation, funny videos that
Speaker 1: you get from your ring camera.
Speaker 2: I think that's meant to I think it's meant.
Speaker 1: To signal to us that like this vast surveillance is
Speaker 1: actually good because it creates funny moments that you get
Speaker 1: to watch on TV.
Speaker 2: So you shouldn't really think that critically.
Speaker 3: About it right now. And I mean I think that's
Speaker 3: also tied up with like the way that I've been
Speaker 3: calling it, like the clout economy kind of works where
Speaker 3: I mean, thank god I didn't tweet in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 3: I think on Twitter ID but like you know, like
Speaker 3: stupid shit that like you know, whatever we've all said,
Speaker 3: stupid ship that we don't need to have on the internet,
Speaker 3: that just kind of like follows. It also makes me
Speaker 3: think of like the GDPR, like there's no right to
Speaker 3: be forgotten. There's no grace if you, I don't know,
Speaker 3: do something stupid and you know, everything is so bad
Speaker 3: faith in a way.
Speaker 1: I myself barely show up on social media because I
Speaker 1: don't want to.
Speaker 2: Deal with it. Like I obviously.
Speaker 1: There's there's like egregious cases, but like for the most part,
Speaker 1: you know, you and I are the same age. We
Speaker 1: like we have grown up online and so like we were,
Speaker 1: we were products of our age, products of our environment,
Speaker 1: products of like the social political.
Speaker 2: Climate at the time. I don't think this is the
Speaker 2: internet landscape that we want.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's the internet landscape that actually fosters
Speaker 1: things like good faith, disagreements, conversation, learning, you know, fucking
Speaker 1: up in public and being like, oh I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I messed up. I learned something. I don't think we
Speaker 1: have an internet climate that welcomes any of that. It's
Speaker 1: it's just an ocean of bad faith attacks that you
Speaker 1: have to like like a minefield that you have to
Speaker 1: navigate through, not something that you can actually show up
Speaker 1: to to.
Speaker 3: You know, I learned something, and like we're living in
Speaker 3: this fascist healscape. Like of course it makes sense that
Speaker 3: you want to, you know, unleash that rage somewhere.
Speaker 1: Some people are very committed to weaponizing anything, and you're
Speaker 1: someone who is like quite visible on social media. As
Speaker 1: we're in this like weird place with musk owning Twitter,
Speaker 1: how has it impacted how you.
Speaker 2: Show up on Twitter? Ask someone who was so visible?
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I recently went face out, maybe like
Speaker 3: two or three weeks ago, after like long discussions with
Speaker 3: my therapists. But like you know, there are so many
Speaker 3: for until I got dogs, I was meticulous about not
Speaker 3: even sharing my time zone, not saying anything about the weather,
Speaker 3: not saying if I was taking like a train or
Speaker 3: a bus or a car, or maybe I would like
Speaker 3: say I was taking a car because I don't own
Speaker 3: want anymore, so that people wouldn't be able to track
Speaker 3: me down. And at a certain point, you know, it's
Speaker 3: horrifying to be dogs obviously, like I've had to move twice,
Speaker 3: but like my parents found my dogs, which is how
Speaker 3: why I haven't like spoken to them in whatever a
Speaker 3: year now, which all was kind of a blessing in
Speaker 3: disguise because like, fuck those few people. I don't want
Speaker 3: to say like liberating because it's not it's horrible, but
Speaker 3: knowing that there's nothing you can hide like or yeah,
Speaker 3: we were saying like oh I don't need to hide
Speaker 3: anything like no, I actually do need to hide a
Speaker 3: lot of things. It's like my address and how I
Speaker 3: make money. But having that just kind of pulled from you,
Speaker 3: I feel like it doesn't make things easier, but it's
Speaker 3: like that there's a whole level, there's a whole thought
Speaker 3: process that I would have to go through to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: did I like erase the metadata? Did I crop out
Speaker 3: the time zone? Did I you know that I don't
Speaker 3: need to do anymore? And that's weirdly, well I guess
Speaker 3: not weirdly, but that's you know, it freed up a
Speaker 3: lot of mental energy I didn't realize I was spending.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't share anything that is really
Speaker 1: like truly personal, like in a meaningful way with the
Speaker 1: inn way, because I I don't have it in me.
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like there's a cost, particularly
Speaker 1: for women, particularly for women who are sex engaged in
Speaker 1: sex work. I think there's a cost that is that
Speaker 1: other people don't have to carry to being someone who's
Speaker 1: visible online.
Speaker 3: But what's you know, what's most difficult for me, I
Speaker 3: think is that like, you know, if they want to
Speaker 3: like expose my shit, like whatever, go ahead, But the
Speaker 3: people close to me, like you know, my grandfather, for instance,
Speaker 3: or like partners, ex partners, friends, like but I mean,
Speaker 3: my partner was dosed and I still don't know how
Speaker 3: those motherfuckers figured out that I was dating period, let
Speaker 3: alone who I was dating, excuse me, And you know
Speaker 3: that too, which just fucking horrifying but also made me think,
Speaker 3: you know, like the person I'm dating now is able
Speaker 3: to deal with that horror more than like some of
Speaker 3: my exes that I'm still friends with, And you know,
Speaker 3: having to just carry the burden of protecting other people's
Speaker 3: safety and other people's privacy with my own husband just
Speaker 3: taken is a lot.
Speaker 2: But I mean that's like, like that's how it works.
Speaker 2: It's never just that the woman.
Speaker 1: It's her partner, it's her mom, it's her community. Like
Speaker 1: that's part of the way that this kind of harassment functions.
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm not going to just come after you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to make everybody I'm going to get make
Speaker 1: there be a cost for anybody associating with you in
Speaker 1: your community.
Speaker 3: Right, or like when I've done like panels or you'll
Speaker 3: probably get this when you upload this and like how
Speaker 3: are many weeks or whatever, people will be like huh.
Speaker 3: So I just wanted to let you know that doctor
Speaker 3: Olivia Snow is actually a fascist, and I'll probably like
Speaker 3: send you some deranged Twitter friends like about how I'm
Speaker 3: I don't know, like drinking baby's blood because that's not yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Mean don't like I have gotten I hope this doesn't
Speaker 1: sound weird. I have gotten only once a DM from
Speaker 1: somebody I didn't know. Just so you know, you're following
Speaker 1: this person who was like, kicks puppies, kills babies, and
Speaker 1: I didn't reply because I.
Speaker 2: Have a blanket rule. I don't engage with that.
Speaker 1: If you're going to tell me that someone was violent
Speaker 1: toward you or something, that totally different story, right, I
Speaker 1: don't engage with this attitude of how could I cut
Speaker 1: this person down by making them lose followers on Twitter.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to engage with it. Not interested.
Speaker 3: You know, years ago, I might have been like, oh,
Speaker 3: that's fucked up, I won't follow them or whatever. But
Speaker 3: you know, now having had these well, I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: years ago, I guess I didn't have the visibility on
Speaker 3: Twitter that I have now, So I guess it's kind
Speaker 3: of a mood point. But like, you know, unless you're
Speaker 3: telling me that, yeah, like you said, like that someone
Speaker 3: was violent to you specifically, or you can give me
Speaker 3: some like concrete shit that I can look at and
Speaker 3: be like, oh wow, Jesus Christ. Right, and yeah, and
Speaker 3: even then, you know, if it's something from like a
Speaker 3: tweet that's taking out of context from ten years ago,
Speaker 3: like that's I just this is what you're spending your
Speaker 3: time on.
Speaker 1: Really exactly, Like, I am not in the business of
Speaker 1: like legislating people's online grievances. It's just like I'm I'm
Speaker 1: and I think it makes the Internet worse for everyone
Speaker 1: when that's how people like perceive it, when that's how
Speaker 1: people engage with it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I find that people tend to reach out to
Speaker 3: other marginalized people specifically to try to, you know, warn
Speaker 3: them that I'm you know, sexss, a homophobic, of transfer
Speaker 3: whatever the fuck in a way like knowing that I
Speaker 3: am a part of a lot of these communities that
Speaker 3: they're trying to just sever me from.
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.
Speaker 1: Last month, Elon Musk overhauled Twitter's verification system and ramped
Speaker 1: up Twitter Blue. The eight dollars a month subscription service
Speaker 1: that gives users access to perks like being able to
Speaker 1: post longer tweets and videos and giving the tweets of
Speaker 1: subscribers increased visibility, thinking that anybody who spends money on
Speaker 1: Twitter Blue is financially supporting Elon Musk. In response, there
Speaker 1: was a short lived campaign to block anyone with a
Speaker 1: blue check mark. Now, Twitter is pretty much the only
Speaker 1: mainstream social media platform that will sort of allow sex
Speaker 1: workers to show up there. Adult content is not explicitly
Speaker 1: banned on Twitter like it is on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok,
Speaker 1: and since some of the perks of Twitter Blue, like
Speaker 1: being able to post longer videos, could be good marketing
Speaker 1: for sex workers, it kind of makes sense that many
Speaker 1: of them would choose to stick around on the platform
Speaker 1: and pay for Twitter Blue, even if it's not an
Speaker 1: endorsement of Elon Musk or the way he runs the platform.
Speaker 1: So a campaign to block anyone with a blue check
Speaker 1: mark on site is hostile to a community of people
Speaker 1: who already face digital hostility all over the internet. Thinking
Speaker 1: about Twitter and your relationship to it. When they rolled
Speaker 1: out the like Twitter Blue subscription, there was a whole
Speaker 1: campaign of like block people with blue check marks.
Speaker 2: But then it was like, you know, there's Twitter.
Speaker 1: It seems to be a platform where a lot of
Speaker 1: sex workers do show up for their businesses to make money,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, if you're blocking all of them, like
Speaker 1: you're not really you feel like maybe you're getting one
Speaker 1: over on Elon Musk, But who you're actually harming is
Speaker 1: sex workers who need, you know, to make livings.
Speaker 3: And people are like, oh, you're giving eight dollars to
Speaker 3: a fascist, Like do you know how much money this
Speaker 3: motherfucker has? Eight dollars is a drop in the book,
Speaker 3: really ridiculous. One of the reasons I'm so active on
Speaker 3: Twitter is it's the only platform that tolerates sex workers.
Speaker 3: Instagram that hates us. I mean, I'm not on Facebook period.
Speaker 3: I think I deactivated when I noticed that, Like all
Speaker 3: my coworkers really foxed TikTok obviously, like I don't even
Speaker 3: use it and I'm not allowed on it. So yeah, no,
Speaker 3: Twitter is the one platform where we can exist as
Speaker 3: sex workers and not have to worry about getting booted
Speaker 3: at the drop of a hat. I mean, we still
Speaker 3: have to worry about getting booted kind of at the drop,
Speaker 3: but it's like slightly less bad, but yeah, no, And
Speaker 3: I mean, like it turns out I think that the
Speaker 3: Twitter blue subscription that like a lot of sex workers
Speaker 3: were getting didn't end up being that profitable, probably in
Speaker 3: large part because of the mass blocking, which, of course,
Speaker 3: like algorithmically each block deboosts your visibility by you know. However,
Speaker 3: many points I've had people reach out to me to
Speaker 3: be like, oh, so and so is dangerous or whatever,
Speaker 3: And in almost every case it's been uh, trans women, wow,
Speaker 3: and like are they dangerous? Or do y'all really hate
Speaker 3: trans women? Because there's a pattern here and the pattern
Speaker 3: is not that's dangerous. Like so you know with the
Speaker 3: block the blue thing, you know, like are you really
Speaker 3: worried that people are giving money to a fascist? Like
Speaker 3: what is he like the second rigist person on the planet?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Like really, yeah, like this is where you're going after
Speaker 3: and you're not trying to get i don't know, like
Speaker 3: the irs to collect some of them, Like really this
Speaker 3: is your priority? And like it are you fighting fashism
Speaker 3: or workers?
Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like even if it's not based
Speaker 1: in hating sex workers, which it likely a lot of
Speaker 1: it is, I think it's also about like not thinking
Speaker 1: about sex workers not not not like being able to
Speaker 1: see sex workers as people whose perspectives matter who you
Speaker 1: want to like have a right to show up on
Speaker 1: an online space.
Speaker 3: Right, or like who are you okay with me? In
Speaker 3: collateral damage?
Speaker 1: That's exactly That's such a good way to put it.
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly it that like, well they don't
Speaker 1: really matter.
Speaker 3: You know, right, or like, well we can't just you know,
Speaker 3: stop fighting fascism so that sex workers can live second place,
Speaker 3: but deside the point, you know, like you're just undermining
Speaker 3: your own point number one, But like I don't.
Speaker 1: When Olivia is asked how we build a safer Internet,
Speaker 1: she bristles, how can we have a truly safer internet
Speaker 1: when it's worn from a society that is often not safe?
Speaker 1: As doctor Sophia Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppression, a
Speaker 1: groundbreaking work that confirmed that search engines are built with
Speaker 1: the same old race and gender biases baked into their algorithms,
Speaker 1: has noted technology is not neutral. It reflects the same
Speaker 1: dynamics that exist in society and the biases of people
Speaker 1: who create them. And this is pretty clear when it
Speaker 1: comes to AI. Back when the AI image generator Lensa
Speaker 1: was taking over everyone's social media feed. Olivia found that
Speaker 1: the program generated non consensual sexualized images of her, even
Speaker 1: from images of her as a child, and she sees
Speaker 1: the way that this will be used to harass, especially
Speaker 1: harassed people who are already marginalized online, like women of color, children,
Speaker 1: queer folks, and sex workers. She writes, this horror story
Speaker 1: that I just narrated sounds too dystopian to be a
Speaker 1: real threat. But as I have also learned through my
Speaker 1: own endlessly revolving door of cyberstalkers, no amount of exonerating
Speaker 1: evidence is sufficient to qual a harassment campaign. Coordinated harassment
Speaker 1: is already unfathomably effective in silencing marginalized voices, especially those
Speaker 1: of sex workers, queer.
Speaker 2: People, and black women.
Speaker 1: Without AI generated revenge porn, And while the technology may
Speaker 1: not be sophisticated enough to produce convincing deep things now,
Speaker 1: it will be soon. Your photos will be used to
Speaker 1: train the AI that will create magic avatars for you,
Speaker 1: and for only three ninety nine a pop.
Speaker 2: You talked about.
Speaker 1: How LENSA like like non consensually sexualizes people, even like
Speaker 1: images of them as children, and so I guess my
Speaker 1: question is like, what do you think about this time
Speaker 1: that we're in where everybody's talking about AI. It seems
Speaker 1: like if you scroll Apple podcasts the tech charts, every podcast.
Speaker 2: Is about AI.
Speaker 1: We're having so many conversations about how quickly it is
Speaker 1: developing and how it's going to change everything, blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: Do you like, like, as someone who thinks about the
Speaker 1: intersection of gender, sex and technology, where do you think
Speaker 1: we are headed to hell directly?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: Like you know, with that LENSA piece. I didn't reach
Speaker 3: out to Lensa because I didn't even know. I'm not
Speaker 3: trained as a journalist, so I'm just kind of like,
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't have a transcript of the interview. Sorry,
Speaker 3: but I didn't. I didn't reach out to them, but
Speaker 3: I think Jezebel did and they were like, hey, what
Speaker 3: do you what do you think of this as like
Speaker 3: it's creating you know, child sexual exploitation material, And Lensa's
Speaker 3: response with something like, well, that person should look into
Speaker 3: the laws in their jurisdiction. And they're always like kind
Speaker 3: of degendering me, like that person by them, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: I I have a name and whatever. Anyway, and you know,
Speaker 3: because they might be like subject to certain penalties for
Speaker 3: creating this, uh like the problem.
Speaker 2: They create, like you didn't create.
Speaker 3: It, right, yeah, And they're like, well, we have a
Speaker 3: policy that says no photos of kids, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: uh like, even even if I wasn't. So the reason
Speaker 3: I even thought to put in those childhood photos is
Speaker 3: because I was just like doing experiments like digging around
Speaker 3: and I so I first ran it with like just
Speaker 3: random pictures of myself and I thought that the results
Speaker 3: were like kind of like I was like, oh, these
Speaker 3: are pretty neat, and you know, knowing that my face
Speaker 3: has been like circulated without my consent, I'm like, I
Speaker 3: don't get what they're gonna have my face? Oh no.
Speaker 3: Then I ran it a second time using like pictures
Speaker 3: where I thought I looked hot, and that was where
Speaker 3: it was creating nudes not consentually, and you know, nudes
Speaker 3: being another thing that you weren't supposed to submit to it.
Speaker 3: So I ran it again and did you did you
Speaker 3: run it or did you for money? I was like that,
Speaker 3: I tweeted. I was like, someone sent me three So
Speaker 3: there were three different gender options. Was I think female male?
Speaker 3: And I want to say others, right, So I ran
Speaker 3: it through the female ones like twice. I ran it
Speaker 3: through the male one and thinking like, well, it give
Speaker 3: me like a beard or something, and it did maybe
Speaker 3: on like two pictures, but the rest it was just
Speaker 3: still like hyper sexual, just in like slightly different ways.
Speaker 3: And then I ran it on the like other gender option,
Speaker 3: and it made me look like a child. You know.
Speaker 3: I was like uploading pictures of like me, no, like
Speaker 3: in my mid thirties, and it spit out pictures where
Speaker 3: I looked like a teenager. And I think it was
Speaker 3: because the algorithm, which I just like hate saying like
Speaker 3: as of like that sounds the Illuminati, but like the
Speaker 3: algorithm it's way of understanding like not male not female
Speaker 3: is just like totally desexualized and like infantilized, which is
Speaker 3: you know why I suspect that it, you know, made
Speaker 3: my adult face and body and look like that of
Speaker 3: a not body but face look like that of a child's.
Speaker 3: I think of like like uh sofia nobles algorithms of oppression,
Speaker 3: right that, like the Internet reflects back like our absolute
Speaker 3: worst tendencies and not just because people are bigger dickheads
Speaker 3: on the Internet than they are in real life though
Speaker 3: that you know, certainly doesn't help the but that like, uh,
Speaker 3: you know what's getting like the input to the Internet
Speaker 3: is like what are like the biases that our culture
Speaker 3: actually has and our culture, like our society, our societies
Speaker 3: are disgusting. We are racists, we're sexist or homophobic, which
Speaker 3: are like we're awful like as just a as a
Speaker 3: a species. And the Internet you know, it doesn't it
Speaker 3: doesn't you know, make value judgments. It just recognizes patterns
Speaker 3: and what it's going to spit back out at us,
Speaker 3: especially with machine learning algorithms that are trying to you know,
Speaker 3: tell us what they think we want to hear is
Speaker 3: going to be like the absolute worst stereotypes, so you
Speaker 3: know lensa like sexualizing women like well, yeah, of course
Speaker 3: it did, because we are a disgusting society that sexualizes
Speaker 3: women and children.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's sad for me because I think there is
Speaker 1: definitely a time where like AI is so powerful that
Speaker 1: I would imagine that it can reimagine worlds where those
Speaker 1: kinds of harmful like stereotypes and racism, sexism, that phobia,
Speaker 1: transphobia or for all of that.
Speaker 2: It I would imagine a world.
Speaker 1: I would like to imagine a world where it is
Speaker 1: not just simply recreating these things.
Speaker 2: And re establishing these things.
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's so clear that that's not,
Speaker 1: that's not It'd be a nice fantasy, but that's not
Speaker 1: what we're.
Speaker 3: Getting right well, And like, you know, there are some
Speaker 3: like some systems or features, like some content moderation in
Speaker 3: place that you know, prevents like just straight up slurs
Speaker 3: popping up and something like chat GBT, but that I
Speaker 3: mean that that's obviously a band aid that's not going
Speaker 3: to uh like just like all the microaggressions inherent in
Speaker 3: all of this shit. And you know, I'm thinking I
Speaker 3: was asked a few months ago to give a talk
Speaker 3: on like how to have a safer Internet, and I
Speaker 3: remember being clicked with that is a ridiculous question, because
Speaker 3: you cannot have a safer Internet until we have a
Speaker 3: safer society, because Internet is just a reflection of that
Speaker 3: then intensified. So like, sure, you can create some kind
Speaker 3: of AI to identify and take down like child sexual
Speaker 3: exploitation material, but is that going to keep kids safe? No,
Speaker 3: like not at all, you know, Like I yeah, And.
Speaker 1: It's funny because you know, your experience with Lensa, with
Speaker 1: them saying well, you could be facing you know, some sort.
Speaker 2: Of punishment for it.
Speaker 1: And it's like, even if Lensa the app, even if
Speaker 1: the tool has a rule against uploading pictures of children,
Speaker 1: if there's no safeguard, if you're allowed, if you're able
Speaker 1: to do it, in what way is it really a rule?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: If you can do it and still get those images?
Speaker 1: How is it a rule if there's no safeguards.
Speaker 3: Right, And with them, I was like, I'm not you know,
Speaker 3: writing this to like embarrass you. It's not like a gotcha.
Speaker 3: It's like, hey, this is violent, maybe you should work
Speaker 3: on making it less violent. And of course the response
Speaker 3: is like, let's be more violent. Like I'm not trying to,
Speaker 3: you know, like ruin your business model. I'm trying to
Speaker 3: be like, hey guys, this is actually really dangerous. This
Speaker 3: is really dangerous. Maybe we should work I'm making it
Speaker 3: less dangerous. And just you know, I get being defensive,
Speaker 3: you know, like I've certainly been accused of being like,
Speaker 3: you know, a trafficker or whatever on Twitter because everyone's
Speaker 3: a fucking idiot, Like no one likes likes getting that,
Speaker 3: you know, pointed out to them, especially in a public forum,
Speaker 3: but like you're like missing the forest of the trees here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you concerned about things like AI generated deep
Speaker 1: fakes and like a marketplace fan?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. The only thing that makes me,
Speaker 3: that gives me some fain horrifying glimmer of hope is
Speaker 3: that that technology is just becoming more and more widely available.
Speaker 3: And I wonder if like deep fake revenge porn will
Speaker 3: just become so ubiquitous that the like first response will
Speaker 3: be like, oh, that's you pake for revenge porn instead
Speaker 3: of like, oh that's real, right, yeah, it's oh absolutely,
Speaker 3: And I mean it's already become a problem. Yeah. I
Speaker 3: remember in that once a piece, I wrote something like like,
Speaker 3: you know, with like four to six months deep pake
Speaker 3: revenge port, it's gonna be everywhere, and then like low
Speaker 3: and behold. Four months later they're like streamers and shit
Speaker 3: just getting harassed with this and you know it's revenge
Speaker 3: one is interesting too, and I think this goes back
Speaker 3: to like why people like fucking with sex workers and
Speaker 3: just like marginalized people in general, is that like it's
Speaker 3: not necessity, it's not physically violent. You're not like punching
Speaker 3: someone in the face. You're you're you know, but you
Speaker 3: are I mean, and even beyond like damaging the reputation
Speaker 3: and damaging their career, the like psychological warfare of some
Speaker 3: of this shit, where it's just a constant environment of fear,
Speaker 3: not even of what you're actually doing, but not even
Speaker 3: what like you could be perceived as doing. I mean,
Speaker 3: I see very little benefit to AI, if any, considering
Speaker 3: it's potential for harm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I personally have a little bit of trouble wrapping
Speaker 1: my head around all the different conversations of that AI.
Speaker 2: What is pr what is true? What is like doomism?
Speaker 2: What is marketing?
Speaker 1: Where do you think how do you think AI is
Speaker 1: going to shape the experience of marginalized people ten years
Speaker 1: down the line?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that like there are some things
Speaker 3: AI is like actually good at, and it's like stupid
Speaker 3: mundane office shit, Like I need to come up with
Speaker 3: a course description for a class I've just and I've
Speaker 3: been meaning to just get on chat GPT and be like, hi,
Speaker 3: Chat GBT, you give me a course description for blah
Speaker 3: blah blah, and then you know, like tweak it or whatever.
Speaker 3: But like you know, writing like mundane emails and shit
Speaker 3: like I can't even imagine the number of hours I
Speaker 3: spent in grad school thinking like should I sign it
Speaker 3: with best or sincerely? Like that kind of shit? You know,
Speaker 3: AI I think is good for But you know, I
Speaker 3: cannot imagine without without restriction, what will like I I
Speaker 3: maybe I could, but I like don't want to, you know, Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I don't think that AI. I know, AI
Speaker 3: is not sentient. I think that's a ridiculous argument. But
Speaker 3: the way that some of this gets coded gives AI
Speaker 3: not the agency, but like doesn't restrict it from doing
Speaker 3: like wildly harmful shit. And you know, I really can't
Speaker 3: see a functioning society if AI continues at the pace
Speaker 3: that it is. I mean, and of course that like
Speaker 3: rests on the assumption that we're currently in a functioning
Speaker 3: society is questionable, But I know, I really can't think
Speaker 3: of how that could possibly be a reality that anyone
Speaker 3: could live in.
Speaker 2: I mean, we're in this very weird moment in technology
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: Platforms feel weird, the future of platforms feel weird.
Speaker 3: All this a musk forever? What that fuck?
Speaker 2: I know it is bad.
Speaker 3: I mean, just like the people I know personally who
Speaker 3: worked at Twitter, who had like their entire lives up
Speaker 3: ended and like lots or livelihoods. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: which is such a like minor piece in the puzzle
Speaker 3: of like how he has fucked up the entire fucking Internet.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean when we're thinking about going forward,
Speaker 1: like why do you feel it's so important to like,
Speaker 1: why is it so important to make sure that the
Speaker 1: voices of sex workers are like really at the forefront
Speaker 1: when we're thinking about.
Speaker 2: The future of the Internet and the future of tech.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, so sex workers a have to be
Speaker 3: on top of tech because we're like one of the
Speaker 3: first things in any term of terms of service is
Speaker 3: you know, no sex adjacent anything like thanks fass Sessa. Uh,
Speaker 3: you know, we're going to fight prostitution or whatever by
Speaker 3: making sure that like, you know, dominatrix can't get a burrito, right, yeah,
Speaker 3: good job. Yeah, so we already have to, you know,
Speaker 3: like sex workers on the whole are a lot moreamiliar
Speaker 3: with like Internet privacy and like how to use VPN
Speaker 3: and how to use like cryptocurrencies and shit. So like
Speaker 3: I mean that that's the one, but the other b
Speaker 3: being like sex workers are consistently the most loathed and
Speaker 3: dehumanized people, like period, Like I think of like like
Speaker 3: no humans involved. What that has referred to it's been
Speaker 3: what what was it? How did Sylvia Winter put it?
Speaker 3: I think it was like black boys without jobs on
Speaker 3: doc human and people, I want to say, and and
Speaker 3: sex workers we are are we're so consistently dehumanized, We're
Speaker 3: not seen as people. If we are seen as people,
Speaker 3: that it's only for like stadistic purposes that we are
Speaker 3: seen as such. And we are you know, concept we're
Speaker 3: perceived as a safety threat. So to keep ourselves safe,
Speaker 3: we have to you know, be take these I want
Speaker 3: to say, like seep almost bizarre measures to like stay
Speaker 3: safe in an environment that perceives our existence as a threat.
Speaker 3: And you know, I think what I think is unique
Speaker 3: to sex workers in that respect is having to be
Speaker 3: like a step ahead of the curve and that like
Speaker 3: or like actually being specifically prohibited by policy because you know,
Speaker 3: there are all kinds of demographics that are fully dehumanized,
Speaker 3: but you know, sex workers aren't seen as like I
Speaker 3: guess like a demographic. You know, I've been trying to
Speaker 3: like theorize this where like the internet kind of makes
Speaker 3: sex work like a fixed identity, Like even if you're
Speaker 3: not doing sex work, you're still a sex worker. And
Speaker 3: you know, especially with the way that that like search
Speaker 3: engines and shit go are, you know, I don't know
Speaker 3: if I would still be in sex work if I
Speaker 3: hadn't been Docks by my full name, which is ethnic
Speaker 3: as shit. I mean, only one on the planet with
Speaker 3: this goofy ass polish name. I don't know if I'd
Speaker 3: still be doing it. But at this point, I'm like,
Speaker 3: it's kind of a waste. If you know, why would
Speaker 3: I be applying for academic jobs in fucking literature when
Speaker 3: they're going to google me and find out that, you know,
Speaker 3: I was a dominatrix in twenty nineteen. I might as
Speaker 3: well be making money off of that, I guess, because
Speaker 3: you know, now I'm always going to be a dominatrix,
Speaker 3: Like that is always going to be online. The way
Speaker 3: that like sex workers work too, has been kind of
Speaker 3: like misunderstood and misapplied, which you know, sex workers work
Speaker 3: means that or should mean that sex workers deserve labor
Speaker 3: protections like any other worker, or workplace safety protections, or
Speaker 3: like sex workers should you know he experienced violence, should
Speaker 3: be able to you know, report them, to be protected
Speaker 3: for it or from it, but instead this like I
Speaker 3: feel like the popular view is like sex work is
Speaker 3: just another job, like working at like the mall, which
Speaker 3: means I can treat sex workers as terribly as I
Speaker 3: treat other or low wage workers.
Speaker 2: No, that is not it, Like no, yeah, and.
Speaker 3: Like well why didn't you just get another job? And
Speaker 3: like no, that's not what you know it, And I
Speaker 3: get like, I think it's hard to communicate that, you know,
Speaker 3: like horphobia is kind of like an amalgamation of all
Speaker 3: these other like biases or like matrices of oppression and not,
Speaker 3: like the stigma is so bad that in almost every scenario,
Speaker 3: you're not going to turn to sex work unless you
Speaker 3: have exhausted every other option, which is why you know,
Speaker 3: sex workers are usually like working class or poor or
Speaker 3: women of color or trans. People think that sex work
Speaker 3: or like hor phobia is something you can like opt
Speaker 3: out of, or like you could just quit being a
Speaker 3: sex worker, versus like I can't quit being like a
Speaker 3: Jewish woman, but like, no, you can't actually, like even
Speaker 3: if I wanted to, no one will let me. And
Speaker 3: I don't know, I think that that kind of nebulousness
Speaker 3: of sex worker as an identity also makes us such
Speaker 3: like uh ripe population, I guess for this kind of shit.
Speaker 3: I saw this headline maybe like a week or so ago,
Speaker 3: and it was like the FBI or the you know,
Speaker 3: secret service or whatever misused some surveillance technology that was
Speaker 3: supposed to identify January sixth Writers, which sign note was
Speaker 3: my worst birthday.
Speaker 2: No six no Olivia.
Speaker 3: But it was like, uh, surveillance technology meant to identify
Speaker 3: January six writers was used against Black Lives Matter organizers
Speaker 3: and like I think it said like misuse. I'm like
Speaker 3: it wasn't misuse because I think that's why it was made.
Speaker 3: I think that was the point of the tech exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so you know these few demographics, I think Black Lives
Speaker 3: Matter gets is more visible than sex workers, like obviously
Speaker 3: maybe obviously, I don't know, and no one's gonna argue
Speaker 3: like you could just opt out of being black, like right, yeah,
Speaker 3: But I don't know as far as voices that are
Speaker 3: like a threat to I don't want to say social order,
Speaker 3: but or hegemony. I don't even know what word I'm
Speaker 3: trying to think of, but I know what you Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that these voices that kind of threaten the status quo
Speaker 3: are intentionally the most marginalized, and they or for need
Speaker 3: to be amplified all that more. You know, I was
Speaker 3: thinking I was in this workshop, maybe like two weeks ago,
Speaker 3: and everyone's talking about center marginalized vices, center marginalized voices.
Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, but the thing about marginalized voices is
Speaker 3: that they are marginalized, right, which means no one wants
Speaker 3: to believe them, and no one's going to listen. Like
Speaker 3: you could say, center marginalized voices all you want, but like,
Speaker 3: does that mean that people are actually going to listen
Speaker 3: to those voices you're centering? No? Like, so you know,
Speaker 3: I like, I don't know how to push back on
Speaker 3: that exactly, other than yelling on the internet, which I
Speaker 3: do a lot of.
Speaker 1: Well, I always end my interviews as asking when it
Speaker 1: comes to the state of the internet and technology, are
Speaker 1: you hopeful?
Speaker 2: Do you have any hope? And if so, what is
Speaker 2: it that gives you hope? Is it a hard no?
Speaker 3: Yes? Like shit? You know, I okay, So one thing
Speaker 3: that does kind of give me hope, and this may
Speaker 3: be sounds like just don't give a shit? Is that
Speaker 3: like so I was on this I was in this
Speaker 3: workshop that was just the marginalized worsh I was just describing,
Speaker 3: like I was invited to this workshop to work, uh,
Speaker 3: to work on AI policy and you know, figure out
Speaker 3: what to do going forward. And it was a sponsored
Speaker 3: by the MacArthur Foundation, and right, like uh like right,
Speaker 3: nice hotel for free. But the fact that they're inviting
Speaker 3: a sex worker at all to something like that, and
Speaker 3: it wasn't there with me. And then I mean as
Speaker 3: far as like people you wouldn't expect to see at
Speaker 3: these kind of events, and I think there were too,
Speaker 3: like a formally incarcerated person and another organizer who was
Speaker 3: my But like the fact that some voices, like the
Speaker 3: most privileged of the marginalized are getting listened to a
Speaker 3: little but makes me think that's a step in maybe
Speaker 3: the right direction, because you know, I don't think that's
Speaker 3: something that was happening ten years ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, take the hope where you can get it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you know, my one faint glimmer And like,
Speaker 3: of course I don't. And I like always try to
Speaker 3: emphasize like when I'm when I say like, well, it
Speaker 3: gives me hope that I specifically, am being listened to?
Speaker 3: Like No, it's not about like me specifically or about
Speaker 3: sex workers specifically, because you know, at the end of
Speaker 3: the day, this is all going to affect everyone. So
Speaker 3: you know the fact that somehow these uh like more
Speaker 3: vulnerable silence voices are getting heard just a little bit,
Speaker 3: I think is hopefully right.
Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or
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Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts
Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Stricklet
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and
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Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate
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