1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:01,760 Speaker 1: If you want to support there Are No Girls on 2 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: the Internet, please check out our patreon. There you can 3 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: get ad free bonus content. Just go to patreon dot 4 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: com slash tangoti and thanks so much. As someone who 5 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: thinks about the intersection of gender, sex and technology, where 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: do you. 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 2: Think we are headed to hell? There are No Girls 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 2: on the Internet. 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm brigit 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: tad and this is there are No Girls on the Internet. 11 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: People who engage in sex work face hostility online, but 12 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: they're also the ones who remain at the forefront of 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: understanding technology, the Internet and the role that it plays 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: in all of our lives from increased online surveillance and 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: legislation like Cesta Fasta, it's people who engage in sex 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: work who are often sounding the alarm about how online 17 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: harms might start by targeting one community like sex workers, 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: but will later manifest for all of us. So in 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: conversations about the future of the Internet and technology, it's 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: critical that all marginalized voices, including sex workers, are included. 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 3: My name is Olivia Snow. I am a dominatrix and 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 3: a research fellow at UCLA's Center for Critical Internet Inquiry. 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: Olivia studies sex work, technology and policy and writes about 24 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: it on the Internet. She's been ducks and harassed online 25 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: for it too, but that hasn't stopped her from centering 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: sex workers in conversations about the Internet and technology. 27 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: So, something that I love. 28 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: About your work is that you really like lean into 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 1: and interrogate this intersection of sex work and technology in 30 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: the Internet. What has that been like, Like, why do 31 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: you think it is so important for people who care 32 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: about the Internet and technology to understand how sex workers 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: show up on the Internet, how sex workers use technology, 34 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: and how has that been sort of prescient about where 35 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: we're headed next. I feel like sex workers are sort 36 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: of like they know what the fuck is happening on 37 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: the Internet and where we're going shit that like, as 38 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: they are constantly calling stuff correctly, how is that? 39 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: I remember I was on the subway home from work 40 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 3: at like green morning, and I was going through I 41 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 3: think Facebook and on my people you may know, all 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 3: of my coworkers were on there, and like we never 43 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 3: we didn't know each other's real names, Like I don't 44 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: I don't want to know any other sex workers real names, 45 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 3: especially for in like a double session. You know, I 46 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: don't want to be like Mistress Megan or whatever, like 47 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: her name's like Emerald or something. So I was like, 48 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 3: oh my god, Facebook is doxing me, like docxing on 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: my cook I mean, I guess not docxing because docxing 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: means with malicious intent, but well maybe, but still, and 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: you know, it was obvious, like okay, like we're in 52 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: close physical proximity, we're sharing the same like Wi Fi network, 53 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: Like it makes sense that you know we're together twelve 54 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: hours a day. But you know, that's when I started, 55 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 3: really I don't know noticing how harmful, just like being 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 3: on the internet is, even if you're or having a 57 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: cell phone even back in like the nineties and the 58 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: early thousands, for getting their big accounts closed for doing 59 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: sex work, which like like how did they know, you know, 60 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 3: even like before cell phones, Like how the fuck would 61 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: like Chase Bank know that the money you're depositing is 62 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: from sex work and like try like okay, you know, 63 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: if you're depositing a certain amount of money and a 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: certain uh like size of bill at a certain atm 65 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 3: at a certain time, then like you're either selling drugs 66 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 3: or you're selling sex. 67 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've read your piece about or I've read pieces 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: about like being today being banned from platforms like Venmore 69 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 1: or even grub hub. Hor It's like I'm just trying 70 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: to get a chicken sandwich, Like I'm just trying to 71 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: get lunch. And I guess I wonder is there a 72 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: lot of the people that I talked to on this show, 73 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: they are marginalized people who have been raising the alarms 74 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: about things on the internet, And oftentimes it's like this 75 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: harm is going to impact a marginalized group, and then 76 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: it's going to impact everybody. Is there a vibe that 77 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: you feel where it's like a constant kind of I 78 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: told you so, or a constant kind of like I 79 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 1: hate to be right all the time where folks engagement. Yes, 80 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: we are like constantly talking about these increased levels of 81 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: surveillance and digital judgment and have been kind. 82 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 2: Of for a while. 83 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And like you know, I used to really 84 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: love being like a too so because I'm like a 85 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 3: kind of an asshole, but like I don't love it now, 86 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 3: I hate it. I'm not working on an article right 87 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 3: now where like Canary and the coal Mine is the 88 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 3: metaphor that's usually used, but like that depends on the 89 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 3: miner actually listening to the canary and getting the fuck 90 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 3: out of the mind doesn't happen. It's more of a 91 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: like Cassandra kind of situation where we're like god like 92 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: and you know, people figure making it up. So like 93 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 3: I got banned from Door to Ash about a year ago, 94 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: and I tweeted about it went like semi viral, and 95 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: a bunch of sex in my reply is like, oh 96 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: my god, this happened to me, Like what the fuck? 97 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 3: I'm not a bunch of uh non sex workers were like, well, hi, 98 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 3: I'll know, how are you sure? Like like maybe it 99 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,239 Speaker 3: was something else like did you violate terms of service 100 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 3: or whatever? And you know, like it was abundantly obvious 101 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: to me because I've also been you know, I've been 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 3: kicked off that, I've been kicked off cash up, I've 103 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 3: been kicked off field, which is weird because that's like 104 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 3: a kink sligh. Really, I've been kicked off, and you 105 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 3: know it's it's TikTok, like a budget. I'm my TikTok 106 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: account has been suspended like I think twice, and I've 107 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: never even posted anything on TikTok ever, Like at all. 108 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: So it's clear to me that there's some type of 109 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 3: data sharing happening, whether it's you know that you're in 110 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: the same device, whether you know other whatever details. I 111 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: don't know. I'm not the kind of. 112 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: Doctor, but. 113 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 3: You know, an algorithmic sweep of high risk account then 114 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: sex workers are going to get caught up in it, which, 115 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: like I mean, also, I feel like responses, at least 116 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 3: to my personally, losing door Dash was kind of like like, oh, well, 117 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 3: I'll make you a new account, or like cow, could 118 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 3: I send you a sandwich? Like no, that's not the point. 119 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 3: The point is that like fucking door Dash is like 120 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: somehow privy to this information. It's frustrating, I guess to 121 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: I mean, and I don't know if it's necessarily gaslighting 122 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 3: because like I guess, people really do believe that I'm 123 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 3: you know, making it up or whatever, or like this 124 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 3: can't be true. You know, door Dash isn't. Well, actually, no, DoorDash. 125 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 3: I remember when this went viral and the New York 126 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 3: Post reached out to DoorDash. They were like, no, we 127 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: would never So that's gaslighting. But yeah, I don't know, 128 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 3: it's it's Yeah, it's frustrated. 129 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that people really have to 130 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: listen to and center marginalized people. 131 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: Sex workers are very much included. 132 00:06:58,080 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: When you're thinking about the future of the Internet, and 133 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: so much of your work is like speaks to that 134 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 1: and looks to that, and like, you know, when we're 135 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: thinking about the kind of Internet that we want to have, 136 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: making sure that those voices are centered. Like you know, 137 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: when we have legislation like the Kids Online Safety Act 138 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: that you know has so much bipartisan support. When you 139 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: hear things like, oh, this is a law to legislate 140 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: the Internet in order to protect. 141 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 2: Kids, protect kids, what comes to your mind? Like what 142 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: do you think when you hear stuff like that. 143 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, if you had to ask me 144 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: that question six years ago, I'd be like, we should 145 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 3: protect kids. Like literally nobody, at least nobody in Congress 146 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: gives a single shit about protecting kids. And like half 147 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 3: these people were on like the Epstein book, like they 148 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 3: they do not care. It's clearly like a smokescreen for 149 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 3: increased surveillance. To me, like that's all I think at 150 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: this point. I do not believe anyone. I mean, well, 151 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 3: I mean we've seen it, you know, in other sectors 152 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: like the like rising homophobia that I personally haven't seen 153 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: since like two thousand and four. That's also you know, 154 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 3: protecting kids from like groomers or whatever the fuck. 155 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: You know. 156 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: It's just I I don't even think that that people 157 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: making those claims at this point are doing it. It's 158 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 3: like I don't I don't think they're doing in good 159 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 3: faith period. You know, this is always and you know 160 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 3: it's not necessarily about sex workers, but yeah, this is 161 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: always about increased surveillance. They do not care about kids. 162 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,559 Speaker 3: If they care about kids, they be working on guns. 163 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 3: Are they working on guns? No? So like that's yeah, 164 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 3: it's and it keeps working. Like also, like I mean, 165 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: I know, I'm like relatively quite privileged, Like I'm, oh, 166 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: white woman with a PhD. Like that's pretty high up there, 167 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: and I often get pushback that's like like you're a privilege. 168 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 3: Y'm like, well, yeah exactly, and you're still not listening, 169 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 3: Like I mean, imagine if I weren't, like then we 170 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,080 Speaker 3: wouldn't even be having this argument because you wouldn't like 171 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: deign to bother with me. 172 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. 173 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: At our back. 174 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: Roe versus Wad was overturned almost a year ago, and 175 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: since then we've all had to navigate what online privacy 176 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: really means when simply accessing information online about abortion can 177 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: be used as evidence to put people behind bars. Now, 178 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: this is something that sex workers know all too well. 179 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: That same vast network of online surveillance and criminalization used 180 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: to target sex workers, also it threatens people who need abortions. 181 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 1: In a piece for Wired called are You Ready to 182 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: be Surveilled Like a sex worker? Olivia points out that 183 00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: this post row world is simply the next and a 184 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: larger campaign to expand state surveillance and e roade the 185 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: right to privacy, a campaign that sex workers have been 186 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: fighting for decades. Do you see a connection between sex 187 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: work and abortion rights as it pertains to the Internet 188 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: and the way it's legislated? 189 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean just like the ways that they're tracked. Like, okay, 190 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 3: so this is going to be an underground economy. You're 191 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 3: going to have to use cash. They're also going to 192 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: be monitoring how you use cash. You know, you're you're 193 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 3: like geolocation will be weaponized, you know, like facial recognition 194 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: technology and at like traffic stops might be used to 195 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 3: identify you, Like shit, that you thought was private is 196 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 3: it in a lot of the same ways, not like 197 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 3: almost all the same ways. And I mean it's all 198 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 3: just you know, uh, trying to restrict what women do 199 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 3: with their bodies, you know, and like regardless of if that, 200 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 3: you know, is the actual outcome, I think that's the 201 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: intent on one hand. On the other hand, I'm like, 202 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: I don't. I also don't care what the intent is 203 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 3: because like, like I don't want to waste my time 204 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: being like, but why is fascism like like not the point? 205 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 3: But yeah, no, I see them as entirely connected. I mean, 206 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 3: same with with the like anti trans legislation, Like it's 207 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: all about restricting what people do with their own bodies. 208 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: It feels like we're in a much more dire place 209 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: because the last time that you know, before like in 210 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: the seventies, before Roe was the law of the land, 211 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: we didn't have this like vast surveillance network. 212 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 2: We all didn't carry GPS devices in our pockets. 213 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: And I feel like one of the ways that we're 214 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: kind of worse off today is that there has been 215 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: this sort of piece by piece tacit. 216 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: In like normalization of that. 217 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 1: But I think that we have this relationship with tech 218 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: companies that like it's fine that they surveil us, and 219 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: actually maybe it's good, like I have nothing to hide, 220 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna do anything wrong, like right where we 221 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: don't even think about it anymore. Like when Ring released 222 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: that show that was like Ring Nation, funny videos that 223 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: you get from your ring camera. 224 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 2: I think that's meant to I think it's meant. 225 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: To signal to us that like this vast surveillance is 226 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: actually good because it creates funny moments that you get 227 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 1: to watch on TV. 228 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 2: So you shouldn't really think that critically. 229 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 3: About it right now. And I mean I think that's 230 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 3: also tied up with like the way that I've been 231 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 3: calling it, like the clout economy kind of works where 232 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: I mean, thank god I didn't tweet in twenty thirteen, 233 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: I think on Twitter ID but like you know, like 234 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 3: stupid shit that like you know, whatever we've all said, 235 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 3: stupid ship that we don't need to have on the internet, 236 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: that just kind of like follows. It also makes me 237 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 3: think of like the GDPR, like there's no right to 238 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 3: be forgotten. There's no grace if you, I don't know, 239 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: do something stupid and you know, everything is so bad 240 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 3: faith in a way. 241 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: I myself barely show up on social media because I 242 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: don't want to. 243 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 2: Deal with it. Like I obviously. 244 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: There's there's like egregious cases, but like for the most part, 245 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: you know, you and I are the same age. We 246 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: like we have grown up online and so like we were, 247 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: we were products of our age, products of our environment, 248 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: products of like the social political. 249 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: Climate at the time. I don't think this is the 250 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: internet landscape that we want. 251 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: I don't think it's the internet landscape that actually fosters 252 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: things like good faith, disagreements, conversation, learning, you know, fucking 253 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: up in public and being like, oh I'm you know, 254 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: I messed up. I learned something. I don't think we 255 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 1: have an internet climate that welcomes any of that. It's 256 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: it's just an ocean of bad faith attacks that you 257 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: have to like like a minefield that you have to 258 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: navigate through, not something that you can actually show up 259 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: to to. 260 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 3: You know, I learned something, and like we're living in 261 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 3: this fascist healscape. Like of course it makes sense that 262 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 3: you want to, you know, unleash that rage somewhere. 263 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: Some people are very committed to weaponizing anything, and you're 264 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,959 Speaker 1: someone who is like quite visible on social media. As 265 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: we're in this like weird place with musk owning Twitter, 266 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: how has it impacted how you. 267 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: Show up on Twitter? Ask someone who was so visible? 268 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I recently went face out, maybe like 269 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: two or three weeks ago, after like long discussions with 270 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: my therapists. But like you know, there are so many 271 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 3: for until I got dogs, I was meticulous about not 272 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: even sharing my time zone, not saying anything about the weather, 273 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: not saying if I was taking like a train or 274 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: a bus or a car, or maybe I would like 275 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 3: say I was taking a car because I don't own 276 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: want anymore, so that people wouldn't be able to track 277 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: me down. And at a certain point, you know, it's 278 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: horrifying to be dogs obviously, like I've had to move twice, 279 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: but like my parents found my dogs, which is how 280 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: why I haven't like spoken to them in whatever a 281 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 3: year now, which all was kind of a blessing in 282 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 3: disguise because like, fuck those few people. I don't want 283 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 3: to say like liberating because it's not it's horrible, but 284 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: knowing that there's nothing you can hide like or yeah, 285 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 3: we were saying like oh I don't need to hide 286 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 3: anything like no, I actually do need to hide a 287 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: lot of things. It's like my address and how I 288 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: make money. But having that just kind of pulled from you, 289 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: I feel like it doesn't make things easier, but it's 290 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 3: like that there's a whole level, there's a whole thought 291 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 3: process that I would have to go through to be like, oh, 292 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: did I like erase the metadata? Did I crop out 293 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: the time zone? Did I you know that I don't 294 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 3: need to do anymore? And that's weirdly, well I guess 295 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 3: not weirdly, but that's you know, it freed up a 296 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 3: lot of mental energy I didn't realize I was spending. 297 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't share anything that is really 298 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: like truly personal, like in a meaningful way with the 299 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: inn way, because I I don't have it in me. 300 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like there's a cost, particularly 301 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: for women, particularly for women who are sex engaged in 302 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: sex work. I think there's a cost that is that 303 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: other people don't have to carry to being someone who's 304 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: visible online. 305 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 3: But what's you know, what's most difficult for me, I 306 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 3: think is that like, you know, if they want to 307 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: like expose my shit, like whatever, go ahead, But the 308 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 3: people close to me, like you know, my grandfather, for instance, 309 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: or like partners, ex partners, friends, like but I mean, 310 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: my partner was dosed and I still don't know how 311 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: those motherfuckers figured out that I was dating period, let 312 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: alone who I was dating, excuse me, And you know 313 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 3: that too, which just fucking horrifying but also made me think, 314 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 3: you know, like the person I'm dating now is able 315 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 3: to deal with that horror more than like some of 316 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 3: my exes that I'm still friends with, And you know, 317 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 3: having to just carry the burden of protecting other people's 318 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 3: safety and other people's privacy with my own husband just 319 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 3: taken is a lot. 320 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 2: But I mean that's like, like that's how it works. 321 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 2: It's never just that the woman. 322 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: It's her partner, it's her mom, it's her community. Like 323 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: that's part of the way that this kind of harassment functions. 324 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 1: It's like, I'm not going to just come after you. 325 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to make everybody I'm going to get make 326 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: there be a cost for anybody associating with you in 327 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: your community. 328 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 3: Right, or like when I've done like panels or you'll 329 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: probably get this when you upload this and like how 330 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 3: are many weeks or whatever, people will be like huh. 331 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 3: So I just wanted to let you know that doctor 332 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: Olivia Snow is actually a fascist, and I'll probably like 333 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: send you some deranged Twitter friends like about how I'm 334 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: I don't know, like drinking baby's blood because that's not yeah, I. 335 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: Mean don't like I have gotten I hope this doesn't 336 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: sound weird. I have gotten only once a DM from 337 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: somebody I didn't know. Just so you know, you're following 338 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: this person who was like, kicks puppies, kills babies, and 339 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: I didn't reply because I. 340 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 2: Have a blanket rule. I don't engage with that. 341 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: If you're going to tell me that someone was violent 342 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: toward you or something, that totally different story, right, I 343 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 1: don't engage with this attitude of how could I cut 344 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 1: this person down by making them lose followers on Twitter. 345 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: I'm not going to engage with it. Not interested. 346 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 3: You know, years ago, I might have been like, oh, 347 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: that's fucked up, I won't follow them or whatever. But 348 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 3: you know, now having had these well, I mean, you know, 349 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 3: years ago, I guess I didn't have the visibility on 350 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 3: Twitter that I have now, So I guess it's kind 351 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 3: of a mood point. But like, you know, unless you're 352 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 3: telling me that, yeah, like you said, like that someone 353 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 3: was violent to you specifically, or you can give me 354 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 3: some like concrete shit that I can look at and 355 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: be like, oh wow, Jesus Christ. Right, and yeah, and 356 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: even then, you know, if it's something from like a 357 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: tweet that's taking out of context from ten years ago, 358 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 3: like that's I just this is what you're spending your 359 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 3: time on. 360 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,439 Speaker 1: Really exactly, Like, I am not in the business of 361 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: like legislating people's online grievances. It's just like I'm I'm 362 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: and I think it makes the Internet worse for everyone 363 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 1: when that's how people like perceive it, when that's how 364 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: people engage with it, you know what I mean. 365 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, I find that people tend to reach out to 366 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: other marginalized people specifically to try to, you know, warn 367 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 3: them that I'm you know, sexss, a homophobic, of transfer 368 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 3: whatever the fuck in a way like knowing that I 369 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 3: am a part of a lot of these communities that 370 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 3: they're trying to just sever me from. 371 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it. 372 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: Last month, Elon Musk overhauled Twitter's verification system and ramped 373 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: up Twitter Blue. The eight dollars a month subscription service 374 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: that gives users access to perks like being able to 375 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: post longer tweets and videos and giving the tweets of 376 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: subscribers increased visibility, thinking that anybody who spends money on 377 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: Twitter Blue is financially supporting Elon Musk. In response, there 378 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: was a short lived campaign to block anyone with a 379 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,440 Speaker 1: blue check mark. Now, Twitter is pretty much the only 380 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: mainstream social media platform that will sort of allow sex 381 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: workers to show up there. Adult content is not explicitly 382 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: banned on Twitter like it is on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, 383 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: and since some of the perks of Twitter Blue, like 384 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: being able to post longer videos, could be good marketing 385 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: for sex workers, it kind of makes sense that many 386 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: of them would choose to stick around on the platform 387 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 1: and pay for Twitter Blue, even if it's not an 388 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 1: endorsement of Elon Musk or the way he runs the platform. 389 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: So a campaign to block anyone with a blue check 390 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: mark on site is hostile to a community of people 391 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: who already face digital hostility all over the internet. Thinking 392 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: about Twitter and your relationship to it. When they rolled 393 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: out the like Twitter Blue subscription, there was a whole 394 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: campaign of like block people with blue check marks. 395 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: But then it was like, you know, there's Twitter. 396 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: It seems to be a platform where a lot of 397 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: sex workers do show up for their businesses to make money, 398 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: and so yeah, if you're blocking all of them, like 399 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: you're not really you feel like maybe you're getting one 400 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: over on Elon Musk, But who you're actually harming is 401 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: sex workers who need, you know, to make livings. 402 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 3: And people are like, oh, you're giving eight dollars to 403 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 3: a fascist, Like do you know how much money this 404 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 3: motherfucker has? Eight dollars is a drop in the book, 405 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 3: really ridiculous. One of the reasons I'm so active on 406 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 3: Twitter is it's the only platform that tolerates sex workers. 407 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 3: Instagram that hates us. I mean, I'm not on Facebook period. 408 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 3: I think I deactivated when I noticed that, Like all 409 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 3: my coworkers really foxed TikTok obviously, like I don't even 410 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 3: use it and I'm not allowed on it. So yeah, no, 411 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 3: Twitter is the one platform where we can exist as 412 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 3: sex workers and not have to worry about getting booted 413 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: at the drop of a hat. I mean, we still 414 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 3: have to worry about getting booted kind of at the drop, 415 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: but it's like slightly less bad, but yeah, no, And 416 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 3: I mean, like it turns out I think that the 417 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 3: Twitter blue subscription that like a lot of sex workers 418 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 3: were getting didn't end up being that profitable, probably in 419 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 3: large part because of the mass blocking, which, of course, 420 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 3: like algorithmically each block deboosts your visibility by you know. However, 421 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 3: many points I've had people reach out to me to 422 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: be like, oh, so and so is dangerous or whatever, 423 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 3: And in almost every case it's been uh, trans women, wow, 424 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 3: and like are they dangerous? Or do y'all really hate 425 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 3: trans women? Because there's a pattern here and the pattern 426 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 3: is not that's dangerous. Like so you know with the 427 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,719 Speaker 3: block the blue thing, you know, like are you really 428 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: worried that people are giving money to a fascist? Like 429 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,440 Speaker 3: what is he like the second rigist person on the planet? 430 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: Now? 431 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 3: Like really, yeah, like this is where you're going after 432 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 3: and you're not trying to get i don't know, like 433 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 3: the irs to collect some of them, Like really this 434 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: is your priority? And like it are you fighting fashism 435 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 3: or workers? 436 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,919 Speaker 1: I mean it sounds like even if it's not based 437 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: in hating sex workers, which it likely a lot of 438 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: it is, I think it's also about like not thinking 439 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: about sex workers not not not like being able to 440 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: see sex workers as people whose perspectives matter who you 441 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: want to like have a right to show up on 442 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: an online space. 443 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 3: Right, or like who are you okay with me? In 444 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 3: collateral damage? 445 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: That's exactly That's such a good way to put it. 446 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: I think that's exactly it that like, well they don't 447 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: really matter. 448 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 3: You know, right, or like, well we can't just you know, 449 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 3: stop fighting fascism so that sex workers can live second place, 450 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 3: but deside the point, you know, like you're just undermining 451 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 3: your own point number one, But like I don't. 452 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: When Olivia is asked how we build a safer Internet, 453 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: she bristles, how can we have a truly safer internet 454 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: when it's worn from a society that is often not safe? 455 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: As doctor Sophia Noble, author of Algorithms of Oppression, a 456 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: groundbreaking work that confirmed that search engines are built with 457 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: the same old race and gender biases baked into their algorithms, 458 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: has noted technology is not neutral. It reflects the same 459 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: dynamics that exist in society and the biases of people 460 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: who create them. And this is pretty clear when it 461 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: comes to AI. Back when the AI image generator Lensa 462 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: was taking over everyone's social media feed. Olivia found that 463 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: the program generated non consensual sexualized images of her, even 464 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: from images of her as a child, and she sees 465 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: the way that this will be used to harass, especially 466 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: harassed people who are already marginalized online, like women of color, children, 467 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 1: queer folks, and sex workers. She writes, this horror story 468 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: that I just narrated sounds too dystopian to be a 469 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: real threat. But as I have also learned through my 470 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: own endlessly revolving door of cyberstalkers, no amount of exonerating 471 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: evidence is sufficient to qual a harassment campaign. Coordinated harassment 472 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: is already unfathomably effective in silencing marginalized voices, especially those 473 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: of sex workers, queer. 474 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: People, and black women. 475 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: Without AI generated revenge porn, And while the technology may 476 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: not be sophisticated enough to produce convincing deep things now, 477 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: it will be soon. Your photos will be used to 478 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,719 Speaker 1: train the AI that will create magic avatars for you, 479 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: and for only three ninety nine a pop. 480 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: You talked about. 481 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: How LENSA like like non consensually sexualizes people, even like 482 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 1: images of them as children, and so I guess my 483 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: question is like, what do you think about this time 484 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: that we're in where everybody's talking about AI. It seems 485 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: like if you scroll Apple podcasts the tech charts, every podcast. 486 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: Is about AI. 487 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: We're having so many conversations about how quickly it is 488 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: developing and how it's going to change everything, blah blah blah. 489 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: Do you like, like, as someone who thinks about the 490 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 1: intersection of gender, sex and technology, where do you think 491 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: we are headed to hell directly? 492 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:52,479 Speaker 2: Now? 493 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 3: Like you know, with that LENSA piece. I didn't reach 494 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 3: out to Lensa because I didn't even know. I'm not 495 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 3: trained as a journalist, so I'm just kind of like, 496 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't have a transcript of the interview. Sorry, 497 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 3: but I didn't. I didn't reach out to them, but 498 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 3: I think Jezebel did and they were like, hey, what 499 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 3: do you what do you think of this as like 500 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,680 Speaker 3: it's creating you know, child sexual exploitation material, And Lensa's 501 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: response with something like, well, that person should look into 502 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 3: the laws in their jurisdiction. And they're always like kind 503 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 3: of degendering me, like that person by them, and I'm like, 504 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 3: I I have a name and whatever. Anyway, and you know, 505 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 3: because they might be like subject to certain penalties for 506 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 3: creating this, uh like the problem. 507 00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 2: They create, like you didn't create. 508 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 3: It, right, yeah, And they're like, well, we have a 509 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 3: policy that says no photos of kids, and I'm like, 510 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 3: uh like, even even if I wasn't. So the reason 511 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 3: I even thought to put in those childhood photos is 512 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 3: because I was just like doing experiments like digging around 513 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: and I so I first ran it with like just 514 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 3: random pictures of myself and I thought that the results 515 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 3: were like kind of like I was like, oh, these 516 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 3: are pretty neat, and you know, knowing that my face 517 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 3: has been like circulated without my consent, I'm like, I 518 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: don't get what they're gonna have my face? Oh no. 519 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: Then I ran it a second time using like pictures 520 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 3: where I thought I looked hot, and that was where 521 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: it was creating nudes not consentually, and you know, nudes 522 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 3: being another thing that you weren't supposed to submit to it. 523 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 3: So I ran it again and did you did you 524 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 3: run it or did you for money? I was like that, 525 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 3: I tweeted. I was like, someone sent me three So 526 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 3: there were three different gender options. Was I think female male? 527 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 3: And I want to say others, right, So I ran 528 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 3: it through the female ones like twice. I ran it 529 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 3: through the male one and thinking like, well, it give 530 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 3: me like a beard or something, and it did maybe 531 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 3: on like two pictures, but the rest it was just 532 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 3: still like hyper sexual, just in like slightly different ways. 533 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 3: And then I ran it on the like other gender option, 534 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 3: and it made me look like a child. You know. 535 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 3: I was like uploading pictures of like me, no, like 536 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 3: in my mid thirties, and it spit out pictures where 537 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 3: I looked like a teenager. And I think it was 538 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: because the algorithm, which I just like hate saying like 539 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 3: as of like that sounds the Illuminati, but like the 540 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 3: algorithm it's way of understanding like not male not female 541 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: is just like totally desexualized and like infantilized, which is 542 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: you know why I suspect that it, you know, made 543 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 3: my adult face and body and look like that of 544 00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 3: a not body but face look like that of a child's. 545 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: I think of like like uh sofia nobles algorithms of oppression, 546 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 3: right that, like the Internet reflects back like our absolute 547 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 3: worst tendencies and not just because people are bigger dickheads 548 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 3: on the Internet than they are in real life though 549 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 3: that you know, certainly doesn't help the but that like, uh, 550 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 3: you know what's getting like the input to the Internet 551 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 3: is like what are like the biases that our culture 552 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: actually has and our culture, like our society, our societies 553 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 3: are disgusting. We are racists, we're sexist or homophobic, which 554 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 3: are like we're awful like as just a as a 555 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 3: a species. And the Internet you know, it doesn't it 556 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 3: doesn't you know, make value judgments. It just recognizes patterns 557 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 3: and what it's going to spit back out at us, 558 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 3: especially with machine learning algorithms that are trying to you know, 559 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 3: tell us what they think we want to hear is 560 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 3: going to be like the absolute worst stereotypes, so you 561 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 3: know lensa like sexualizing women like well, yeah, of course 562 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 3: it did, because we are a disgusting society that sexualizes 563 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 3: women and children. 564 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 565 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: And it's sad for me because I think there is 566 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: definitely a time where like AI is so powerful that 567 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: I would imagine that it can reimagine worlds where those 568 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: kinds of harmful like stereotypes and racism, sexism, that phobia, 569 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: transphobia or for all of that. 570 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: It I would imagine a world. 571 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 1: I would like to imagine a world where it is 572 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 1: not just simply recreating these things. 573 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 2: And re establishing these things. 574 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: But I feel like it's so clear that that's not, 575 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: that's not It'd be a nice fantasy, but that's not 576 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: what we're. 577 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 3: Getting right well, And like, you know, there are some 578 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: like some systems or features, like some content moderation in 579 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 3: place that you know, prevents like just straight up slurs 580 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: popping up and something like chat GBT, but that I 581 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 3: mean that that's obviously a band aid that's not going 582 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 3: to uh like just like all the microaggressions inherent in 583 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 3: all of this shit. And you know, I'm thinking I 584 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: was asked a few months ago to give a talk 585 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 3: on like how to have a safer Internet, and I 586 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 3: remember being clicked with that is a ridiculous question, because 587 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 3: you cannot have a safer Internet until we have a 588 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 3: safer society, because Internet is just a reflection of that 589 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 3: then intensified. So like, sure, you can create some kind 590 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 3: of AI to identify and take down like child sexual 591 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 3: exploitation material, but is that going to keep kids safe? No, 592 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 3: like not at all, you know, Like I yeah, And. 593 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: It's funny because you know, your experience with Lensa, with 594 00:32:55,840 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: them saying well, you could be facing you know, some sort. 595 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 2: Of punishment for it. 596 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,239 Speaker 1: And it's like, even if Lensa the app, even if 597 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: the tool has a rule against uploading pictures of children, 598 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: if there's no safeguard, if you're allowed, if you're able 599 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: to do it, in what way is it really a rule? 600 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: Right? 601 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: If you can do it and still get those images? 602 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: How is it a rule if there's no safeguards. 603 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,080 Speaker 3: Right, And with them, I was like, I'm not you know, 604 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 3: writing this to like embarrass you. It's not like a gotcha. 605 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 3: It's like, hey, this is violent, maybe you should work 606 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,479 Speaker 3: on making it less violent. And of course the response 607 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 3: is like, let's be more violent. Like I'm not trying to, 608 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 3: you know, like ruin your business model. I'm trying to 609 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 3: be like, hey guys, this is actually really dangerous. This 610 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 3: is really dangerous. Maybe we should work I'm making it 611 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 3: less dangerous. And just you know, I get being defensive, 612 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 3: you know, like I've certainly been accused of being like, 613 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 3: you know, a trafficker or whatever on Twitter because everyone's 614 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: a fucking idiot, Like no one likes likes getting that, 615 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 3: you know, pointed out to them, especially in a public forum, 616 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 3: but like you're like missing the forest of the trees here. 617 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, are you concerned about things like AI generated deep 618 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: fakes and like a marketplace fan? 619 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh yeah. The only thing that makes me, 620 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 3: that gives me some fain horrifying glimmer of hope is 621 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 3: that that technology is just becoming more and more widely available. 622 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 3: And I wonder if like deep fake revenge porn will 623 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 3: just become so ubiquitous that the like first response will 624 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 3: be like, oh, that's you pake for revenge porn instead 625 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 3: of like, oh that's real, right, yeah, it's oh absolutely, 626 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 3: And I mean it's already become a problem. Yeah. I 627 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 3: remember in that once a piece, I wrote something like like, 628 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 3: you know, with like four to six months deep pake 629 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,399 Speaker 3: revenge port, it's gonna be everywhere, and then like low 630 00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 3: and behold. Four months later they're like streamers and shit 631 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 3: just getting harassed with this and you know it's revenge 632 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:06,839 Speaker 3: one is interesting too, and I think this goes back 633 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 3: to like why people like fucking with sex workers and 634 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 3: just like marginalized people in general, is that like it's 635 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: not necessity, it's not physically violent. You're not like punching 636 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 3: someone in the face. You're you're you know, but you 637 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 3: are I mean, and even beyond like damaging the reputation 638 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 3: and damaging their career, the like psychological warfare of some 639 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 3: of this shit, where it's just a constant environment of fear, 640 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: not even of what you're actually doing, but not even 641 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 3: what like you could be perceived as doing. I mean, 642 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 3: I see very little benefit to AI, if any, considering 643 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 3: it's potential for harm. 644 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I personally have a little bit of trouble wrapping 645 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 1: my head around all the different conversations of that AI. 646 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 2: What is pr what is true? What is like doomism? 647 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 2: What is marketing? 648 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: Where do you think how do you think AI is 649 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: going to shape the experience of marginalized people ten years 650 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: down the line? 651 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 3: I mean, I think that like there are some things 652 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 3: AI is like actually good at, and it's like stupid 653 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 3: mundane office shit, Like I need to come up with 654 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 3: a course description for a class I've just and I've 655 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 3: been meaning to just get on chat GPT and be like, hi, 656 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,279 Speaker 3: Chat GBT, you give me a course description for blah 657 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 3: blah blah, and then you know, like tweak it or whatever. 658 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 3: But like you know, writing like mundane emails and shit 659 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 3: like I can't even imagine the number of hours I 660 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 3: spent in grad school thinking like should I sign it 661 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 3: with best or sincerely? Like that kind of shit? You know, 662 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 3: AI I think is good for But you know, I 663 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 3: cannot imagine without without restriction, what will like I I 664 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 3: maybe I could, but I like don't want to, you know, Like, 665 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 3: you know, I don't think that AI. I know, AI 666 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 3: is not sentient. I think that's a ridiculous argument. But 667 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 3: the way that some of this gets coded gives AI 668 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 3: not the agency, but like doesn't restrict it from doing 669 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 3: like wildly harmful shit. And you know, I really can't 670 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 3: see a functioning society if AI continues at the pace 671 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 3: that it is. I mean, and of course that like 672 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 3: rests on the assumption that we're currently in a functioning 673 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 3: society is questionable, But I know, I really can't think 674 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,960 Speaker 3: of how that could possibly be a reality that anyone 675 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 3: could live in. 676 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:47,879 Speaker 2: I mean, we're in this very weird moment in technology 677 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 2: right now. 678 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: Platforms feel weird, the future of platforms feel weird. 679 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 3: All this a musk forever? What that fuck? 680 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 2: I know it is bad. 681 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,440 Speaker 3: I mean, just like the people I know personally who 682 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 3: worked at Twitter, who had like their entire lives up 683 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 3: ended and like lots or livelihoods. I mean, you know, 684 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 3: which is such a like minor piece in the puzzle 685 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 3: of like how he has fucked up the entire fucking Internet. 686 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean when we're thinking about going forward, 687 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: like why do you feel it's so important to like, 688 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: why is it so important to make sure that the 689 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: voices of sex workers are like really at the forefront 690 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 1: when we're thinking about. 691 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: The future of the Internet and the future of tech. 692 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, so sex workers a have to be 693 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 3: on top of tech because we're like one of the 694 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,200 Speaker 3: first things in any term of terms of service is 695 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 3: you know, no sex adjacent anything like thanks fass Sessa. Uh, 696 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 3: you know, we're going to fight prostitution or whatever by 697 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 3: making sure that like, you know, dominatrix can't get a burrito, right, yeah, 698 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,319 Speaker 3: good job. Yeah, so we already have to, you know, 699 00:38:56,520 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 3: like sex workers on the whole are a lot moreamiliar 700 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 3: with like Internet privacy and like how to use VPN 701 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 3: and how to use like cryptocurrencies and shit. So like 702 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 3: I mean that that's the one, but the other b 703 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 3: being like sex workers are consistently the most loathed and 704 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:24,400 Speaker 3: dehumanized people, like period, Like I think of like like 705 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 3: no humans involved. What that has referred to it's been 706 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 3: what what was it? How did Sylvia Winter put it? 707 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 3: I think it was like black boys without jobs on 708 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 3: doc human and people, I want to say, and and 709 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 3: sex workers we are are we're so consistently dehumanized, We're 710 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 3: not seen as people. If we are seen as people, 711 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 3: that it's only for like stadistic purposes that we are 712 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 3: seen as such. And we are you know, concept we're 713 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:56,760 Speaker 3: perceived as a safety threat. So to keep ourselves safe, 714 00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 3: we have to you know, be take these I want 715 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 3: to say, like seep almost bizarre measures to like stay 716 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 3: safe in an environment that perceives our existence as a threat. 717 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 3: And you know, I think what I think is unique 718 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,760 Speaker 3: to sex workers in that respect is having to be 719 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 3: like a step ahead of the curve and that like 720 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 3: or like actually being specifically prohibited by policy because you know, 721 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 3: there are all kinds of demographics that are fully dehumanized, 722 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 3: but you know, sex workers aren't seen as like I 723 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 3: guess like a demographic. You know, I've been trying to 724 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 3: like theorize this where like the internet kind of makes 725 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 3: sex work like a fixed identity, Like even if you're 726 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 3: not doing sex work, you're still a sex worker. And 727 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,000 Speaker 3: you know, especially with the way that that like search 728 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,640 Speaker 3: engines and shit go are, you know, I don't know 729 00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:56,400 Speaker 3: if I would still be in sex work if I 730 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,240 Speaker 3: hadn't been Docks by my full name, which is ethnic 731 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 3: as shit. I mean, only one on the planet with 732 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 3: this goofy ass polish name. I don't know if I'd 733 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 3: still be doing it. But at this point, I'm like, 734 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 3: it's kind of a waste. If you know, why would 735 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 3: I be applying for academic jobs in fucking literature when 736 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 3: they're going to google me and find out that, you know, 737 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 3: I was a dominatrix in twenty nineteen. I might as 738 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,799 Speaker 3: well be making money off of that, I guess, because 739 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,759 Speaker 3: you know, now I'm always going to be a dominatrix, 740 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 3: Like that is always going to be online. The way 741 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 3: that like sex workers work too, has been kind of 742 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 3: like misunderstood and misapplied, which you know, sex workers work 743 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 3: means that or should mean that sex workers deserve labor 744 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 3: protections like any other worker, or workplace safety protections, or 745 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 3: like sex workers should you know he experienced violence, should 746 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,320 Speaker 3: be able to you know, report them, to be protected 747 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 3: for it or from it, but instead this like I 748 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 3: feel like the popular view is like sex work is 749 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,879 Speaker 3: just another job, like working at like the mall, which 750 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 3: means I can treat sex workers as terribly as I 751 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 3: treat other or low wage workers. 752 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 2: No, that is not it, Like no, yeah, and. 753 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 3: Like well why didn't you just get another job? And 754 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,200 Speaker 3: like no, that's not what you know it, And I 755 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 3: get like, I think it's hard to communicate that, you know, 756 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 3: like horphobia is kind of like an amalgamation of all 757 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 3: these other like biases or like matrices of oppression and not, 758 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,760 Speaker 3: like the stigma is so bad that in almost every scenario, 759 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 3: you're not going to turn to sex work unless you 760 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 3: have exhausted every other option, which is why you know, 761 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 3: sex workers are usually like working class or poor or 762 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 3: women of color or trans. People think that sex work 763 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,320 Speaker 3: or like hor phobia is something you can like opt 764 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 3: out of, or like you could just quit being a 765 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 3: sex worker, versus like I can't quit being like a 766 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 3: Jewish woman, but like, no, you can't actually, like even 767 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 3: if I wanted to, no one will let me. And 768 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 3: I don't know, I think that that kind of nebulousness 769 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 3: of sex worker as an identity also makes us such 770 00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:21,919 Speaker 3: like uh ripe population, I guess for this kind of shit. 771 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,959 Speaker 3: I saw this headline maybe like a week or so ago, 772 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 3: and it was like the FBI or the you know, 773 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 3: secret service or whatever misused some surveillance technology that was 774 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:37,920 Speaker 3: supposed to identify January sixth Writers, which sign note was 775 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 3: my worst birthday. 776 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 2: No six no Olivia. 777 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 3: But it was like, uh, surveillance technology meant to identify 778 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 3: January six writers was used against Black Lives Matter organizers 779 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 3: and like I think it said like misuse. I'm like 780 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,800 Speaker 3: it wasn't misuse because I think that's why it was made. 781 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 3: I think that was the point of the tech exactly. Yeah, 782 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 3: so you know these few demographics, I think Black Lives 783 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 3: Matter gets is more visible than sex workers, like obviously 784 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 3: maybe obviously, I don't know, and no one's gonna argue 785 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 3: like you could just opt out of being black, like right, yeah, 786 00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:38,399 Speaker 3: But I don't know as far as voices that are 787 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,200 Speaker 3: like a threat to I don't want to say social order, 788 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 3: but or hegemony. I don't even know what word I'm 789 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:52,520 Speaker 3: trying to think of, but I know what you Yeah, yeah, 790 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,359 Speaker 3: that these voices that kind of threaten the status quo 791 00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:01,799 Speaker 3: are intentionally the most marginalized, and they or for need 792 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,360 Speaker 3: to be amplified all that more. You know, I was 793 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 3: thinking I was in this workshop, maybe like two weeks ago, 794 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,359 Speaker 3: and everyone's talking about center marginalized vices, center marginalized voices. 795 00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 3: I'm like, okay, but the thing about marginalized voices is 796 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 3: that they are marginalized, right, which means no one wants 797 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 3: to believe them, and no one's going to listen. Like 798 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:25,040 Speaker 3: you could say, center marginalized voices all you want, but like, 799 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,640 Speaker 3: does that mean that people are actually going to listen 800 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 3: to those voices you're centering? No? Like, so you know, 801 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 3: I like, I don't know how to push back on 802 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,239 Speaker 3: that exactly, other than yelling on the internet, which I 803 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 3: do a lot of. 804 00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: Well, I always end my interviews as asking when it 805 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: comes to the state of the internet and technology, are 806 00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: you hopeful? 807 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 2: Do you have any hope? And if so, what is 808 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,080 Speaker 2: it that gives you hope? Is it a hard no? 809 00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 3: Yes? Like shit? You know, I okay, So one thing 810 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,719 Speaker 3: that does kind of give me hope, and this may 811 00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,279 Speaker 3: be sounds like just don't give a shit? Is that 812 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 3: like so I was on this I was in this 813 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 3: workshop that was just the marginalized worsh I was just describing, 814 00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 3: like I was invited to this workshop to work, uh, 815 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 3: to work on AI policy and you know, figure out 816 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 3: what to do going forward. And it was a sponsored 817 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 3: by the MacArthur Foundation, and right, like uh like right, 818 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,520 Speaker 3: nice hotel for free. But the fact that they're inviting 819 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:46,360 Speaker 3: a sex worker at all to something like that, and 820 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,680 Speaker 3: it wasn't there with me. And then I mean as 821 00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 3: far as like people you wouldn't expect to see at 822 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,399 Speaker 3: these kind of events, and I think there were too, 823 00:46:54,680 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 3: like a formally incarcerated person and another organizer who was 824 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 3: my But like the fact that some voices, like the 825 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 3: most privileged of the marginalized are getting listened to a 826 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 3: little but makes me think that's a step in maybe 827 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:17,879 Speaker 3: the right direction, because you know, I don't think that's 828 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,359 Speaker 3: something that was happening ten years ago. 829 00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, take the hope where you can get it. 830 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you know, my one faint glimmer And like, 831 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 3: of course I don't. And I like always try to 832 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,440 Speaker 3: emphasize like when I'm when I say like, well, it 833 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 3: gives me hope that I specifically, am being listened to? 834 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,919 Speaker 3: Like No, it's not about like me specifically or about 835 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 3: sex workers specifically, because you know, at the end of 836 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 3: the day, this is all going to affect everyone. So 837 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,719 Speaker 3: you know the fact that somehow these uh like more 838 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 3: vulnerable silence voices are getting heard just a little bit, 839 00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 3: I think is hopefully right. 840 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 841 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can read us at 842 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 843 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 844 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,960 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd. 845 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,720 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed creative. Jonathan Stricklet 846 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,560 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and 847 00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,359 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 848 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate 849 00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 1: and review. 850 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 2: Us on Apple Podcasts. 851 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 852 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:45,960 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.