1 00:00:15,304 --> 00:00:15,824 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,664 --> 00:00:23,344 Speaker 2: I'm Emma Green, and I wrote the party is Canceled 3 00:00:23,384 --> 00:00:25,584 Speaker 2: for The New Yorker, and it's the story of the week. 4 00:00:26,664 --> 00:00:30,584 Speaker 1: In the movie Annie Hall, Woody Allen repeats this joke, 5 00:00:31,264 --> 00:00:33,584 Speaker 1: I'd never join a club that would allow a person 6 00:00:33,744 --> 00:00:37,224 Speaker 1: like me to become a member, Which is too bad, 7 00:00:37,264 --> 00:00:38,984 Speaker 1: because there's a new club in New York City that 8 00:00:39,024 --> 00:00:43,024 Speaker 1: would totally invite Woody Allen, possibly the only one that 9 00:00:43,064 --> 00:00:46,624 Speaker 1: would invite Woody Allen. In twenty twenty three, it's called 10 00:00:46,824 --> 00:00:51,144 Speaker 1: the Gathering of Thought Criminals. It's a club for canceled people, 11 00:00:52,104 --> 00:01:02,104 Speaker 1: and a reporter has infiltrated their ranks. Writing is hard. 12 00:01:02,304 --> 00:01:05,624 Speaker 1: Who's got that kind of time when you're already busy 13 00:01:05,744 --> 00:01:07,344 Speaker 1: trying to be Joe stand. 14 00:01:07,424 --> 00:01:11,064 Speaker 3: So it turns on a mic, maybe twitles en because 15 00:01:11,104 --> 00:01:16,664 Speaker 3: a journalist brand has got in that you time, single story. 16 00:01:16,944 --> 00:01:23,744 Speaker 1: Just listen to smart bandle speak conversation film information is 17 00:01:23,744 --> 00:01:36,704 Speaker 1: the story. Emma Green went to a Gathering of Thought 18 00:01:36,704 --> 00:01:40,624 Speaker 1: Criminals dinner and wrote about it for The New Yorker. Emma, 19 00:01:40,784 --> 00:01:43,864 Speaker 1: thank you for talking to me about this. How did 20 00:01:43,904 --> 00:01:47,424 Speaker 1: you first find out about this story? Are you? Are 21 00:01:47,424 --> 00:01:49,904 Speaker 1: you secretly a member of the canceled society. 22 00:01:51,504 --> 00:01:55,664 Speaker 2: I am not a member of the thought criminals. I 23 00:01:55,744 --> 00:01:58,904 Speaker 2: am not canceled as far as I know, but I'll 24 00:01:58,984 --> 00:02:00,864 Speaker 2: keep you posted if that changes. 25 00:02:00,864 --> 00:02:04,104 Speaker 1: We'll work on that. During this interview, I knew. 26 00:02:03,864 --> 00:02:08,424 Speaker 2: I should never have accepted this podcast invitation. The origin 27 00:02:08,464 --> 00:02:12,224 Speaker 2: story of this is one of those journalism dream stories. 28 00:02:12,304 --> 00:02:15,624 Speaker 2: This person who I was having coffee with mentioned in 29 00:02:15,664 --> 00:02:18,944 Speaker 2: a totally casual, offhanded way, oh yeah, and you know 30 00:02:18,984 --> 00:02:22,424 Speaker 2: Pamela Pereski, She's like the mother hand of the canceled 31 00:02:22,624 --> 00:02:25,664 Speaker 2: And of course I thought to myself, I need to 32 00:02:25,824 --> 00:02:27,464 Speaker 2: know everything about that. 33 00:02:27,744 --> 00:02:30,064 Speaker 1: So tell me what your story is about. As if 34 00:02:30,104 --> 00:02:32,904 Speaker 1: we had just met at a dinner party for canceled people. 35 00:02:33,344 --> 00:02:37,104 Speaker 2: H well, you know the scal Pamela. She lives in 36 00:02:37,104 --> 00:02:41,824 Speaker 2: New York. She's fifty six, and she is trained as 37 00:02:42,224 --> 00:02:47,824 Speaker 2: a psychiatrist and is also a writer and public intellectual. 38 00:02:47,944 --> 00:02:51,584 Speaker 2: She has a regular feature at Psychology Today. She also 39 00:02:51,624 --> 00:02:53,824 Speaker 2: worked on The Coddling of the American Mind, which is 40 00:02:53,824 --> 00:02:55,024 Speaker 2: that book by John. 41 00:02:54,864 --> 00:02:57,384 Speaker 1: Hide that was a really important book, even a little 42 00:02:57,384 --> 00:03:00,424 Speaker 1: bit before cancel culture. That book was talking about how 43 00:03:00,744 --> 00:03:04,224 Speaker 1: universities weren't allowed to talk about all kinds. 44 00:03:03,984 --> 00:03:07,224 Speaker 2: Of stuff totally trigger warnings and safe spaces because so. 45 00:03:07,224 --> 00:03:11,024 Speaker 1: She was involved in that. Yes, exactly, what's Pamela like? 46 00:03:11,504 --> 00:03:16,704 Speaker 2: She is a little short, she has brown hair, gray streaks. 47 00:03:17,024 --> 00:03:19,464 Speaker 2: She has glasses, she often purchased them on her hair, 48 00:03:20,224 --> 00:03:24,944 Speaker 2: and she is very focused when she's talking to someone. 49 00:03:25,184 --> 00:03:28,344 Speaker 2: It's this feeling like you know, you're the only person 50 00:03:28,384 --> 00:03:31,864 Speaker 2: in the world. And she's just a very intense person. 51 00:03:32,464 --> 00:03:36,224 Speaker 1: And someone in your story described her as being kinda hot. 52 00:03:37,504 --> 00:03:38,184 Speaker 1: Did you find that. 53 00:03:38,944 --> 00:03:43,144 Speaker 2: I am not going to be the adjudicator of which 54 00:03:43,144 --> 00:03:43,984 Speaker 2: of my sources. 55 00:03:43,704 --> 00:03:44,664 Speaker 1: Is you're objective? 56 00:03:46,424 --> 00:03:48,144 Speaker 2: I think I would lose my job if I started 57 00:03:48,144 --> 00:03:50,784 Speaker 2: doing that. But one of my sources did describe her 58 00:03:50,824 --> 00:03:55,704 Speaker 2: as the intellectual dark Web's most eligible bachelorette, which Pamela 59 00:03:55,784 --> 00:03:57,664 Speaker 2: says that she's not part of the intellectual dark Web. 60 00:03:57,744 --> 00:04:00,144 Speaker 1: No one besides Joe Rogan wants to be part of that. 61 00:04:00,144 --> 00:04:02,264 Speaker 2: Right, Maybe, I don't know. There are a few people 62 00:04:02,304 --> 00:04:04,584 Speaker 2: who are really proud to be to be in that scene. 63 00:04:04,784 --> 00:04:06,104 Speaker 1: Has she been canceled. 64 00:04:06,784 --> 00:04:11,704 Speaker 2: No. She has at times faced pushback on social media, 65 00:04:11,864 --> 00:04:14,864 Speaker 2: but she's never really faced any kind of personal professional 66 00:04:14,864 --> 00:04:17,744 Speaker 2: consequences for something that she's written or said or done, 67 00:04:18,264 --> 00:04:21,384 Speaker 2: And something that was really interesting to me was trying 68 00:04:21,424 --> 00:04:27,304 Speaker 2: to untangle why it is that cancelation matters to her 69 00:04:27,384 --> 00:04:30,424 Speaker 2: so much. It's a professional focus of hers, it's obviously 70 00:04:30,424 --> 00:04:33,144 Speaker 2: a personal focus of her. She's trying to get people 71 00:04:33,144 --> 00:04:36,024 Speaker 2: together who have been canceled, And it was really interesting 72 00:04:36,104 --> 00:04:39,384 Speaker 2: psychologically for me to try to puzzle out why is 73 00:04:39,424 --> 00:04:44,664 Speaker 2: it that this possibility, this danger of getting canceled feels 74 00:04:44,744 --> 00:04:46,824 Speaker 2: so present and threatening for her? 75 00:04:47,504 --> 00:04:53,064 Speaker 1: And why did you conclude. 76 00:04:50,984 --> 00:04:53,904 Speaker 2: Well, there's a speculation that maybe goes beyond what I 77 00:04:53,944 --> 00:04:55,664 Speaker 2: wrote in my story, but I suppose that's why you 78 00:04:55,704 --> 00:04:59,184 Speaker 2: go on podcasts. She wanted to be this actress when 79 00:04:59,224 --> 00:05:00,984 Speaker 2: she was growing up, and she told me that she 80 00:05:01,064 --> 00:05:03,144 Speaker 2: went from wanting to be an actress to wanting to 81 00:05:03,144 --> 00:05:05,784 Speaker 2: be an actress who just sort of was in the background, 82 00:05:05,864 --> 00:05:08,184 Speaker 2: not really wanting to be known at all. And I 83 00:05:08,264 --> 00:05:10,744 Speaker 2: thought that was really tough. She is sort of scared 84 00:05:10,744 --> 00:05:12,624 Speaker 2: of what happens when you take the limelight and the 85 00:05:12,664 --> 00:05:16,064 Speaker 2: consequences for saying or doing things that are unpopular. 86 00:05:16,264 --> 00:05:17,184 Speaker 1: Was she ever an actress? 87 00:05:17,824 --> 00:05:22,024 Speaker 2: She had her big break in Goodfellas. She is an 88 00:05:22,064 --> 00:05:26,104 Speaker 2: extra in the famous Coca Cabana party scene. Whereas there's 89 00:05:26,144 --> 00:05:27,384 Speaker 2: that one long shot. 90 00:05:27,184 --> 00:05:29,584 Speaker 3: Oh, the opening shot, the endless tracking right where they 91 00:05:29,584 --> 00:05:31,704 Speaker 3: go through the kitchen of the club and you can 92 00:05:31,744 --> 00:05:33,544 Speaker 3: see her after they come out of the kitchen, and 93 00:05:33,584 --> 00:05:36,864 Speaker 3: she has this big nineteen fifties hair, dude, and she's 94 00:05:36,864 --> 00:05:37,304 Speaker 3: sort of. 95 00:05:37,224 --> 00:05:41,304 Speaker 2: Conspiring with these men in suits. And to me, that's 96 00:05:41,304 --> 00:05:43,864 Speaker 2: a perfect stand in for Pamela, which is she's kind 97 00:05:43,864 --> 00:05:46,504 Speaker 2: of in the background, you don't really know she's there, 98 00:05:46,824 --> 00:05:50,184 Speaker 2: but she sure is having an interesting conspiratorial discussion with 99 00:05:50,224 --> 00:05:51,944 Speaker 2: important looking men on the side. 100 00:05:53,264 --> 00:05:55,424 Speaker 1: So what is this dinner party called? 101 00:05:56,664 --> 00:06:00,384 Speaker 2: So Pamela calls this the gathering of the thought Criminals. 102 00:06:00,624 --> 00:06:03,944 Speaker 1: The gathering of the thought Criminals. That's great. I want 103 00:06:03,944 --> 00:06:04,384 Speaker 1: to join that. 104 00:06:05,064 --> 00:06:07,224 Speaker 2: Some people think it's great. Some people don't think it's great. 105 00:06:07,544 --> 00:06:10,544 Speaker 2: I talk to some people who were like, yeah, you know, 106 00:06:10,704 --> 00:06:12,904 Speaker 2: that criminal is so fun. At Thought Criminals, we do this. 107 00:06:12,944 --> 00:06:15,024 Speaker 2: At that Criminals, we do that, And then some other 108 00:06:15,064 --> 00:06:17,464 Speaker 2: people who were like, eugh, I really hate that that 109 00:06:17,584 --> 00:06:19,504 Speaker 2: criminal stick like it's kind of cringey. 110 00:06:19,704 --> 00:06:22,144 Speaker 1: So there are some rules to the club. 111 00:06:22,344 --> 00:06:23,584 Speaker 2: It's like fight club, except. 112 00:06:23,424 --> 00:06:24,704 Speaker 1: It is like fight club, right. 113 00:06:24,504 --> 00:06:26,264 Speaker 2: Well, there's only one rule at fight club. There are 114 00:06:26,264 --> 00:06:29,224 Speaker 2: two rules at that criminals. Okay, first rule of that, criminals, 115 00:06:29,304 --> 00:06:31,104 Speaker 2: you have to be willing to break bed with people 116 00:06:31,104 --> 00:06:33,624 Speaker 2: who have been canceled or whatever term you want to use, 117 00:06:33,664 --> 00:06:35,664 Speaker 2: if you don't believe the cancelation is a real thing. 118 00:06:36,424 --> 00:06:39,744 Speaker 2: And second rule, Pamela's got to like you. She is 119 00:06:39,864 --> 00:06:44,584 Speaker 2: the bouncer and getting past Pamela is the all important thing. 120 00:06:45,264 --> 00:06:47,424 Speaker 1: Can you ask to be invited or is that against 121 00:06:47,424 --> 00:06:48,584 Speaker 1: the rules? You have to wait for her to find 122 00:06:48,624 --> 00:06:49,224 Speaker 1: you and invite you. 123 00:06:50,024 --> 00:06:53,024 Speaker 2: So I've heard of a few instances where someone has 124 00:06:53,104 --> 00:06:58,264 Speaker 2: asked to come along. Pamela also finds people when they're 125 00:06:58,304 --> 00:07:01,504 Speaker 2: going through something big, when they're getting pushback on social media, 126 00:07:01,664 --> 00:07:05,184 Speaker 2: or they're facing a way with cancelation. So she accumulates 127 00:07:05,224 --> 00:07:08,504 Speaker 2: people in lots of different ways. But I'm not sure 128 00:07:08,544 --> 00:07:11,424 Speaker 2: that they're is a Google form that you could go 129 00:07:11,504 --> 00:07:14,264 Speaker 2: fill out drol and try to get in. Sorry about that, 130 00:07:14,584 --> 00:07:15,544 Speaker 2: I'm going to go work on that. 131 00:07:16,344 --> 00:07:19,424 Speaker 1: Are there are there t shirts or rings or anything 132 00:07:19,464 --> 00:07:21,544 Speaker 1: like secret society ish or you just show up at 133 00:07:21,544 --> 00:07:22,064 Speaker 1: these dinners? 134 00:07:22,584 --> 00:07:25,584 Speaker 2: I wish And if there were, they didn't show them 135 00:07:25,624 --> 00:07:25,864 Speaker 2: to me. 136 00:07:26,264 --> 00:07:28,464 Speaker 1: No, they would show you you're a great reporter. They 137 00:07:28,464 --> 00:07:29,584 Speaker 1: would one hundred percent show. 138 00:07:30,024 --> 00:07:31,584 Speaker 2: I would like to think that if there was any 139 00:07:31,664 --> 00:07:35,264 Speaker 2: kind of like gear or paraphernalia, I would not only 140 00:07:35,304 --> 00:07:37,784 Speaker 2: have seen it, but maybe have scored one to take 141 00:07:37,824 --> 00:07:40,064 Speaker 2: back to my reporting trophy shelf. 142 00:07:40,144 --> 00:07:44,704 Speaker 1: But alas, okay, so what is her definition of being 143 00:07:44,824 --> 00:07:47,784 Speaker 1: canceled that would get you into this dinner party? 144 00:07:48,344 --> 00:07:52,624 Speaker 2: Everything from pushback on social media to people who have 145 00:07:52,704 --> 00:07:55,064 Speaker 2: lost their jobs because of something that they said or 146 00:07:55,104 --> 00:07:58,584 Speaker 2: did so to her, it really encompasses a wide range, 147 00:07:58,624 --> 00:08:00,824 Speaker 2: and in fact, not everybody at that criminals has to 148 00:08:00,864 --> 00:08:03,024 Speaker 2: have been canceled. You just have to be willing to 149 00:08:03,024 --> 00:08:04,904 Speaker 2: break bread with someone who's been canceled. 150 00:08:05,864 --> 00:08:08,544 Speaker 1: Are these all liberals who the liberals have turned on? 151 00:08:08,664 --> 00:08:10,864 Speaker 1: Or are there on people who are actually from the 152 00:08:10,904 --> 00:08:12,344 Speaker 1: conservative side of things who come to. 153 00:08:12,344 --> 00:08:15,504 Speaker 2: These I think it's both. I met and talked to 154 00:08:15,864 --> 00:08:20,824 Speaker 2: someone who is an avowed socialist, a couple libertarians, certainly 155 00:08:20,984 --> 00:08:25,144 Speaker 2: at least a couple of people who are definitely conservatives 156 00:08:25,304 --> 00:08:28,304 Speaker 2: vote Republican. And then I think there are a lot 157 00:08:28,464 --> 00:08:32,504 Speaker 2: of disaffected liberals, people who would describe themselves as lifelong Democrats. 158 00:08:32,544 --> 00:08:36,424 Speaker 2: Maybe they still vote Democrat, but there is something about 159 00:08:36,504 --> 00:08:40,584 Speaker 2: liberal culture that they feel has gone over the top. 160 00:08:41,344 --> 00:08:44,104 Speaker 1: So does this dinner party always at Pamela's house or 161 00:08:44,144 --> 00:08:45,024 Speaker 1: where does she throw these? 162 00:08:45,504 --> 00:08:49,104 Speaker 2: They rotate around New York City. Often they're at this 163 00:08:49,184 --> 00:08:51,744 Speaker 2: restaurant called the Olive Tree, which is above the Comedy 164 00:08:51,824 --> 00:08:53,384 Speaker 2: Seller in Greenwich Village. 165 00:08:53,624 --> 00:08:55,304 Speaker 1: Oh, the Comedy Seller guy. 166 00:08:55,824 --> 00:08:56,504 Speaker 2: No, I'm Dorman. 167 00:08:56,864 --> 00:09:00,064 Speaker 1: He owns that place too, he does. He is kind 168 00:09:00,104 --> 00:09:03,424 Speaker 1: of a libertarian himself. He's the guy who brought Louis 169 00:09:03,424 --> 00:09:05,864 Speaker 1: c K back. Right after Louis c K was canceled, 170 00:09:05,904 --> 00:09:07,664 Speaker 1: he was performing at the Comedy Seller and people were 171 00:09:07,704 --> 00:09:08,464 Speaker 1: mad at this guy. 172 00:09:08,624 --> 00:09:11,584 Speaker 2: That's right. That was one of Louis K's first stops 173 00:09:11,744 --> 00:09:16,384 Speaker 2: after his whole cancelation saga. And now you know, everybody's 174 00:09:16,424 --> 00:09:20,104 Speaker 2: basically back to having Luis K on. But Noam Dorman 175 00:09:20,184 --> 00:09:23,664 Speaker 2: I don't know his politics, and he says that he 176 00:09:23,744 --> 00:09:26,544 Speaker 2: just likes making his venues a home for lively debate. 177 00:09:27,024 --> 00:09:30,264 Speaker 2: And Noam Dorman has in the past picked up the 178 00:09:30,344 --> 00:09:31,504 Speaker 2: check for the thought Criminals. 179 00:09:31,544 --> 00:09:34,104 Speaker 1: The Comedy Steller guy is the sponsor of the gathering 180 00:09:34,104 --> 00:09:34,984 Speaker 1: of the thought Criminals. 181 00:09:35,144 --> 00:09:39,104 Speaker 2: He comps them when they go wow. Yeah. 182 00:09:39,144 --> 00:09:40,544 Speaker 1: So if you want to get a free dinner, go 183 00:09:40,584 --> 00:09:43,424 Speaker 1: to the Olive Tree Cafe above the Comedy Seller and 184 00:09:43,504 --> 00:09:47,104 Speaker 1: just talk loudly with controversial opinions, and there's a chance 185 00:09:47,544 --> 00:09:48,624 Speaker 1: that your bill will disappear. 186 00:09:49,184 --> 00:09:50,904 Speaker 2: I think if I said that, no one would kill me. 187 00:09:51,024 --> 00:09:52,024 Speaker 2: So no comment. 188 00:09:54,224 --> 00:09:57,384 Speaker 1: When we come back, Emma will go inside the gathering 189 00:09:57,384 --> 00:10:02,504 Speaker 1: of thought criminals dinner and not eat anything. But first, 190 00:10:02,904 --> 00:10:16,224 Speaker 1: our advertisers have some red pills they want to sell you. Okay, 191 00:10:16,264 --> 00:10:19,224 Speaker 1: So you went to one of these dinners, tell me 192 00:10:19,264 --> 00:10:21,264 Speaker 1: what it was like, just from the moment you start 193 00:10:21,704 --> 00:10:22,504 Speaker 1: walking towards it. 194 00:10:22,744 --> 00:10:25,224 Speaker 2: So this was on a Sunday night. You go up 195 00:10:25,224 --> 00:10:27,264 Speaker 2: a little slide of stairs and you're up into the 196 00:10:27,264 --> 00:10:31,344 Speaker 2: Olive Tree and it's one of these old restaurants, like 197 00:10:31,824 --> 00:10:35,704 Speaker 2: maroon leather booths and those hanging lights that are sort 198 00:10:35,744 --> 00:10:38,424 Speaker 2: of stained glassish that hang over your head kind of 199 00:10:38,504 --> 00:10:41,024 Speaker 2: like a flower. You know, they had all this like 200 00:10:41,904 --> 00:10:46,024 Speaker 2: soft Rock, Queen Creeden's Clearwater Revival. You know, it's that 201 00:10:46,104 --> 00:10:49,304 Speaker 2: kind of place. So wings and burgers kind of joint, I. 202 00:10:49,264 --> 00:10:51,904 Speaker 1: Know exactly the eighties place in the West Village you're 203 00:10:51,904 --> 00:10:52,504 Speaker 1: talking about. 204 00:10:52,664 --> 00:10:56,184 Speaker 2: So there's this table that had been pushed together maybe 205 00:10:56,544 --> 00:10:58,704 Speaker 2: I don't know, twelve or thirteen people showed up to 206 00:10:58,824 --> 00:11:01,864 Speaker 2: this version of the gathering. Now, it's important to note 207 00:11:01,864 --> 00:11:04,064 Speaker 2: that this was a special version of the gathering, and 208 00:11:04,104 --> 00:11:06,024 Speaker 2: they knew I was going to be there, so it 209 00:11:06,064 --> 00:11:09,224 Speaker 2: was smaller than usual. And I would say it was 210 00:11:09,264 --> 00:11:11,664 Speaker 2: a very particular set because it was people who are 211 00:11:11,704 --> 00:11:14,664 Speaker 2: willing to show up to one of these hangouts when 212 00:11:14,664 --> 00:11:16,384 Speaker 2: they knew that a New Yorker reporter was going to 213 00:11:16,384 --> 00:11:16,584 Speaker 2: be there. 214 00:11:16,664 --> 00:11:18,944 Speaker 1: So normally there'd be like twice as many people. Or 215 00:11:18,984 --> 00:11:20,224 Speaker 1: how many people do they usually get? 216 00:11:20,424 --> 00:11:23,424 Speaker 2: Pamila says that they get anywhere from a few dozen 217 00:11:23,544 --> 00:11:24,184 Speaker 2: to sixty. 218 00:11:24,544 --> 00:11:27,184 Speaker 1: And what does it feel like? Does it feel tense? 219 00:11:27,304 --> 00:11:30,584 Speaker 1: Does it feel excitingly? How does it compare to other 220 00:11:30,624 --> 00:11:31,344 Speaker 1: parties you've been to? 221 00:11:32,984 --> 00:11:37,944 Speaker 2: It felt like the kind of party that lifelong debate 222 00:11:38,024 --> 00:11:42,064 Speaker 2: kids go to. People who want nothing more than to 223 00:11:42,144 --> 00:11:46,944 Speaker 2: sit around having extremely detailed and technical arguments, and that's 224 00:11:46,984 --> 00:11:49,784 Speaker 2: how they want to spend their socializing and free time. 225 00:11:50,264 --> 00:11:53,104 Speaker 1: Are people wearing name tags or is it much more casual? 226 00:11:53,264 --> 00:11:55,904 Speaker 2: It's way more casual than that in other versions of 227 00:11:55,944 --> 00:11:59,144 Speaker 2: the gathering. I've been told that often people will sit 228 00:11:59,224 --> 00:12:01,944 Speaker 2: down and get out of a guitar and start singing 229 00:12:01,984 --> 00:12:06,104 Speaker 2: folk songs. So it's a pretty convivial and casual setting 230 00:12:06,184 --> 00:12:08,544 Speaker 2: where people can get to know each other without having 231 00:12:08,584 --> 00:12:11,104 Speaker 2: to have something like a name tag on that's too dorky. 232 00:12:11,624 --> 00:12:13,304 Speaker 1: How was the food I didn't eat? 233 00:12:13,864 --> 00:12:15,264 Speaker 2: You know, gotta work? You didn't eat? 234 00:12:15,304 --> 00:12:17,784 Speaker 1: Come on, really, is that what we're supposed to do? 235 00:12:17,784 --> 00:12:21,144 Speaker 2: I always eat Packapeebie and Jay. You know, I don't know. 236 00:12:21,744 --> 00:12:23,744 Speaker 1: I always eat no matter where I am. I shouldn't 237 00:12:23,744 --> 00:12:24,624 Speaker 1: be doing that as a reporter. 238 00:12:25,664 --> 00:12:28,304 Speaker 2: I'm not here to criticize your journalistic ethics. Yes, would 239 00:12:28,304 --> 00:12:30,224 Speaker 2: I say that you're you're a bad reporter. I wouldn't 240 00:12:30,224 --> 00:12:32,344 Speaker 2: say that you're a bad reporter. Other people might say that. 241 00:12:32,384 --> 00:12:33,624 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say, no. 242 00:12:33,984 --> 00:12:37,024 Speaker 1: This is horrible. Just yesterday, I was out an event, 243 00:12:37,064 --> 00:12:38,944 Speaker 1: I was interviewing people. I was just shoving food in 244 00:12:38,984 --> 00:12:39,384 Speaker 1: my face. 245 00:12:39,704 --> 00:12:44,584 Speaker 2: Wow, I mean, no judgment. I guess. I guess. 246 00:12:46,024 --> 00:12:48,264 Speaker 1: Do you feel comfortable there? Like? How do you feel? 247 00:12:51,624 --> 00:12:56,224 Speaker 2: It's hard to say, because reporters are like bad party guests. 248 00:12:56,264 --> 00:12:59,264 Speaker 2: Don't invite reporters to your parties. I mean, maybe you 249 00:12:59,304 --> 00:13:01,104 Speaker 2: and I should keep that to ourselves because I want 250 00:13:01,144 --> 00:13:02,304 Speaker 2: people to keep reporting. 251 00:13:02,064 --> 00:13:03,744 Speaker 1: Reporters so everyone knows trust me. 252 00:13:04,024 --> 00:13:06,544 Speaker 2: But you know, I think by the end of the night, 253 00:13:06,584 --> 00:13:10,184 Speaker 2: when people were at their loosest, it really was people 254 00:13:10,224 --> 00:13:13,904 Speaker 2: sitting around one end of the table, heads really close together, 255 00:13:14,224 --> 00:13:19,864 Speaker 2: you know, leaning in, talking about very technical aspects of 256 00:13:20,504 --> 00:13:24,224 Speaker 2: the trans debate, and it was just very intense and. 257 00:13:24,424 --> 00:13:27,824 Speaker 1: This trans debate. Who was leading that There was. 258 00:13:27,824 --> 00:13:30,624 Speaker 2: A woman there named Kim Jones who is the mother 259 00:13:31,024 --> 00:13:35,464 Speaker 2: of a swimmer who competed against the athlete Leah Thomas, 260 00:13:35,904 --> 00:13:38,344 Speaker 2: who is a trans woman, and there was a lot 261 00:13:38,384 --> 00:13:41,584 Speaker 2: of backlash to Leah Thomas because she was victorious. So 262 00:13:41,704 --> 00:13:46,744 Speaker 2: Kim Jones, this mom has basically reorganized her life around 263 00:13:46,824 --> 00:13:50,104 Speaker 2: what happened to her daughter. She has started an organization 264 00:13:50,304 --> 00:13:54,304 Speaker 2: which is about, as she would say, defending single sex 265 00:13:54,344 --> 00:13:57,304 Speaker 2: spaces and the rights of female athletes, and that includes 266 00:13:57,744 --> 00:14:01,584 Speaker 2: the exclusion of trans athletes from female sports. 267 00:14:02,304 --> 00:14:03,144 Speaker 1: Who else was there? 268 00:14:04,224 --> 00:14:07,744 Speaker 2: So I met a number of people who weren't willing 269 00:14:07,864 --> 00:14:11,504 Speaker 2: to use their nos or go on the record. There 270 00:14:11,544 --> 00:14:14,344 Speaker 2: were a couple of people who had previously identified as 271 00:14:14,384 --> 00:14:19,864 Speaker 2: transgender and then later had detransitioned away from that identity. 272 00:14:20,944 --> 00:14:24,424 Speaker 2: Nick Gillespie, who is a professional libertarian he works for 273 00:14:24,464 --> 00:14:27,464 Speaker 2: Reason magazine was there. There was another young woman there 274 00:14:27,544 --> 00:14:30,624 Speaker 2: named Ricky Schlott, who is a journalist and dropped out 275 00:14:30,624 --> 00:14:33,264 Speaker 2: of NYU. She felt that it was kind of a 276 00:14:33,304 --> 00:14:35,744 Speaker 2: waste of her time during the pandemic. And also she 277 00:14:35,864 --> 00:14:39,344 Speaker 2: was hiding books by the black economist Thomas Soowell under 278 00:14:39,344 --> 00:14:42,624 Speaker 2: her mattress, who sort of like loved by young conservatives 279 00:14:42,624 --> 00:14:43,784 Speaker 2: and hated by everybody else. 280 00:14:44,064 --> 00:14:46,704 Speaker 1: It's a weird thing to keep under your bed. That's 281 00:14:46,784 --> 00:14:49,904 Speaker 1: just sad, but exciting for Thomas soul maybe. 282 00:14:50,544 --> 00:14:52,784 Speaker 2: Yeah, So lots of different kinds of people. 283 00:14:53,704 --> 00:14:56,384 Speaker 1: How about canceled people, though there are actually canceled people there. 284 00:14:56,904 --> 00:15:00,384 Speaker 2: So one of the d transitioners who I talked with 285 00:15:00,584 --> 00:15:02,904 Speaker 2: this is someone who I would say has faced a 286 00:15:02,904 --> 00:15:06,424 Speaker 2: significant amount of public backlash. I talked on the phone 287 00:15:06,744 --> 00:15:09,544 Speaker 2: separately with a couple of people who I would say 288 00:15:09,584 --> 00:15:14,944 Speaker 2: count as fully canceled. Sarah Rosiskind is an example of 289 00:15:15,184 --> 00:15:17,664 Speaker 2: one of these people who did go through something that 290 00:15:17,984 --> 00:15:21,504 Speaker 2: is pretty explicitly a cancelation. When she was at Harvard, 291 00:15:21,544 --> 00:15:24,024 Speaker 2: this is maybe ten years ago, she wrote an op 292 00:15:24,144 --> 00:15:27,744 Speaker 2: ed for The Crimson about affirmative action, and I think 293 00:15:27,784 --> 00:15:30,584 Speaker 2: she would say that it was kind of flip in 294 00:15:30,704 --> 00:15:33,384 Speaker 2: and intended to be a little funny, but there was 295 00:15:33,424 --> 00:15:36,464 Speaker 2: a big backlash on Harvard's campus. She talked to me 296 00:15:36,624 --> 00:15:39,744 Speaker 2: about having friends who stopped talking to her, people walking 297 00:15:39,744 --> 00:15:43,784 Speaker 2: out on dates with her. Somebody from Jezebel wrote about 298 00:15:43,784 --> 00:15:46,424 Speaker 2: how she was I think, a snide, rude, little baby. 299 00:15:46,864 --> 00:15:49,384 Speaker 2: And she talked about even after she graduated, she had 300 00:15:49,464 --> 00:15:51,184 Speaker 2: encounters where this would come up and it would be 301 00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:53,824 Speaker 2: a source of contention at a party that she was at. 302 00:15:54,184 --> 00:15:57,744 Speaker 2: And she's thirty one now. She said that basically this 303 00:15:57,784 --> 00:15:59,824 Speaker 2: has defined the last ten years of her life. She 304 00:16:00,104 --> 00:16:04,384 Speaker 2: has had a really hard time reckoning with it, and 305 00:16:04,504 --> 00:16:06,664 Speaker 2: she told me that she hated herself. She had to 306 00:16:06,704 --> 00:16:08,264 Speaker 2: do a lot of therapy. She did a lot of 307 00:16:08,424 --> 00:16:13,744 Speaker 2: psychedelic drug use as a foray into trying to get 308 00:16:13,784 --> 00:16:18,704 Speaker 2: some understanding and forgiveness. And I think she's someone who's very, 309 00:16:18,824 --> 00:16:21,584 Speaker 2: very very deeply thoughtful about what happened to her. She 310 00:16:21,824 --> 00:16:24,984 Speaker 2: regrets the articles. She's learned a lot more about affirmative action. 311 00:16:25,664 --> 00:16:29,304 Speaker 2: I think she also has come to feel like these 312 00:16:29,384 --> 00:16:37,184 Speaker 2: instances where people are really just destroyed because even if 313 00:16:37,184 --> 00:16:40,384 Speaker 2: they say something stupid that they later regret, she feels 314 00:16:40,384 --> 00:16:43,344 Speaker 2: that that is not a great way to treat people, 315 00:16:43,624 --> 00:16:45,344 Speaker 2: and in that way, I found her to be a 316 00:16:45,384 --> 00:16:49,064 Speaker 2: really interesting example of a thought criminal, someone who's trying 317 00:16:49,104 --> 00:16:50,064 Speaker 2: to wrestle with all of this. 318 00:16:51,144 --> 00:16:54,904 Speaker 1: I've talked to people who've been canceled. It seems from 319 00:16:54,944 --> 00:16:56,984 Speaker 1: the outside like it shouldn't be such a big deal, 320 00:16:57,104 --> 00:17:00,424 Speaker 1: but we're such social creatures that people's lives fall apart. 321 00:17:00,824 --> 00:17:03,304 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's something that Sarah and I talked about, which 322 00:17:03,384 --> 00:17:05,864 Speaker 2: is I think one of the critiques from the left 323 00:17:05,904 --> 00:17:09,384 Speaker 2: about cancelation or cancel culture, people who are skeptic that 324 00:17:09,464 --> 00:17:12,904 Speaker 2: such a thing exists, is that sometimes there are real 325 00:17:13,024 --> 00:17:15,704 Speaker 2: clear consequences when someone gets canceled, they lose a job 326 00:17:15,824 --> 00:17:19,264 Speaker 2: or whatever, but oftentimes it's not really clear what the 327 00:17:19,264 --> 00:17:22,264 Speaker 2: consequence is. Right, they don't necessarily lose their job, they 328 00:17:22,264 --> 00:17:26,864 Speaker 2: don't necessarily lose their house or their wife. But to Sarah, 329 00:17:26,984 --> 00:17:31,464 Speaker 2: it still matters what your reputation is, right, because how 330 00:17:31,544 --> 00:17:34,864 Speaker 2: other people think of us, how we're known, the kind 331 00:17:34,864 --> 00:17:38,304 Speaker 2: of association that we have with bad ideas or bad deeds, 332 00:17:38,784 --> 00:17:42,184 Speaker 2: that's such an important currency of social trust. And when 333 00:17:42,184 --> 00:17:45,624 Speaker 2: that's broken, both in our own self perception and in 334 00:17:45,624 --> 00:17:50,344 Speaker 2: other people's perceptions, I think it can be really devastating 335 00:17:50,384 --> 00:17:53,784 Speaker 2: for people, and you might think, well, they deserve it, 336 00:17:54,304 --> 00:17:58,904 Speaker 2: But I think it's interesting to engage with people who 337 00:17:58,904 --> 00:18:01,984 Speaker 2: have been through that, because, if nothing else, I think 338 00:18:02,024 --> 00:18:05,104 Speaker 2: it's important for us to understand as a society what 339 00:18:05,304 --> 00:18:07,704 Speaker 2: happens when we've done this to someone. 340 00:18:07,984 --> 00:18:12,024 Speaker 1: Yeah, when you kick someone out of the village, that 341 00:18:12,064 --> 00:18:14,984 Speaker 1: you should know the consequences of it. And so many 342 00:18:15,024 --> 00:18:16,904 Speaker 1: people who get kicked out of the village kind of 343 00:18:16,904 --> 00:18:19,864 Speaker 1: have an ideological turn, like some people become more successful 344 00:18:19,904 --> 00:18:22,104 Speaker 1: after being canceled. Were there those kind of people at 345 00:18:22,104 --> 00:18:22,544 Speaker 1: this dinner? 346 00:18:22,944 --> 00:18:25,224 Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's something that Sarah and I talked about. 347 00:18:25,304 --> 00:18:27,064 Speaker 2: She was saying, you know, good to be brave, but 348 00:18:27,104 --> 00:18:28,984 Speaker 2: you shouldn't be an edge lord. There are a lot 349 00:18:29,024 --> 00:18:30,904 Speaker 2: of different ways to deal with this, and one of 350 00:18:30,944 --> 00:18:35,184 Speaker 2: them is to become really defensive. But for me, I 351 00:18:35,184 --> 00:18:40,384 Speaker 2: think the question as a reporter becomes is there a 352 00:18:40,544 --> 00:18:45,384 Speaker 2: really well developed understanding of sin and forgiveness here? I 353 00:18:45,464 --> 00:18:49,184 Speaker 2: asked this question over and over again to basically everyone 354 00:18:49,384 --> 00:18:52,424 Speaker 2: I met who went to the gatherings, which is what 355 00:18:52,624 --> 00:18:57,464 Speaker 2: happens if there's a truly bad person, do you invite 356 00:18:57,504 --> 00:19:00,704 Speaker 2: them into the gathering? Do you still have jovial conversation 357 00:19:00,784 --> 00:19:03,224 Speaker 2: with them. What's the threshold for forgiveness? 358 00:19:03,544 --> 00:19:05,784 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is there's a limit of who 359 00:19:05,784 --> 00:19:06,824 Speaker 1: I want to be in a room. 360 00:19:06,624 --> 00:19:10,264 Speaker 2: With, right, And that is I think the really big 361 00:19:10,704 --> 00:19:14,104 Speaker 2: question about the Thought Criminals. Pamela was like, Harvey Weinstein 362 00:19:14,224 --> 00:19:16,504 Speaker 2: can't come. But you know, in some ways that's the 363 00:19:16,544 --> 00:19:17,984 Speaker 2: easy question. 364 00:19:17,744 --> 00:19:19,704 Speaker 1: Right exactly, that's actual criminal. 365 00:19:19,864 --> 00:19:22,624 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's an actual criminal. But you know, there's a 366 00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:26,584 Speaker 2: lot of hashmarks between Harvey Weinstein and someone who has 367 00:19:26,824 --> 00:19:30,664 Speaker 2: a mildly unpopular opinion. And when I talked to Pamela, 368 00:19:31,384 --> 00:19:33,944 Speaker 2: it didn't seem to me that she had developed really 369 00:19:33,984 --> 00:19:38,664 Speaker 2: clear parameters for how to figure out how far out 370 00:19:38,704 --> 00:19:42,344 Speaker 2: you could be and still be welcomed into the Thought Criminals. 371 00:19:42,464 --> 00:19:45,744 Speaker 2: And Pamela, to her credit, was like, look, we're just 372 00:19:45,744 --> 00:19:47,824 Speaker 2: a group of friends. You're putting too much on us, 373 00:19:47,864 --> 00:19:51,464 Speaker 2: Like you're asking us to be too you know, sophisticated 374 00:19:51,504 --> 00:19:53,904 Speaker 2: and have all these rules written out about you know, 375 00:19:53,944 --> 00:19:55,864 Speaker 2: how we think about sin and forgiveness or whatever. But 376 00:19:56,224 --> 00:19:59,144 Speaker 2: ultimately I think this is a story about how in 377 00:19:59,224 --> 00:20:03,904 Speaker 2: society do we categorize people's sins and after someone has sinned, 378 00:20:04,304 --> 00:20:07,344 Speaker 2: is there a method for forgiveness. What should happen to 379 00:20:07,384 --> 00:20:08,544 Speaker 2: them afterwards? 380 00:20:09,184 --> 00:20:10,864 Speaker 1: She does have a rule, and it's kind of the 381 00:20:10,904 --> 00:20:13,504 Speaker 1: only rule anyone has. If you're friends with Pamela, you're 382 00:20:13,544 --> 00:20:16,304 Speaker 1: in right, And that's the rule all of us are making. 383 00:20:16,864 --> 00:20:19,344 Speaker 1: And it's not just people who are like publicly canceled. 384 00:20:19,384 --> 00:20:22,184 Speaker 1: It's like my uncle who voted for Trump, Like it's 385 00:20:22,224 --> 00:20:25,144 Speaker 1: a constant decision of who you include and exclude. 386 00:20:25,184 --> 00:20:28,464 Speaker 2: That's right. And I think part of what's complicated about 387 00:20:28,504 --> 00:20:30,864 Speaker 2: a gathering like this is that all of these people 388 00:20:30,904 --> 00:20:36,744 Speaker 2: have experienced something that involves other people making accusations, and 389 00:20:36,824 --> 00:20:40,464 Speaker 2: so that trust is eroded in this popular consensus about 390 00:20:40,504 --> 00:20:42,224 Speaker 2: who should be in polite company and who should be 391 00:20:42,264 --> 00:20:44,704 Speaker 2: outside of it. But then who do I trust? I 392 00:20:44,744 --> 00:20:47,544 Speaker 2: guess I trust Pamela, And if Pamela vouches, then I 393 00:20:47,544 --> 00:20:51,224 Speaker 2: guess you must be okay. It's creating this alternative ecosystem 394 00:20:51,384 --> 00:20:55,984 Speaker 2: for who deserves to be in a nice cocktail party. 395 00:20:56,824 --> 00:20:59,984 Speaker 1: What feedback have you gotten since the story came out? 396 00:21:00,024 --> 00:21:00,104 Speaker 2: Like? 397 00:21:00,144 --> 00:21:02,344 Speaker 1: Have you gotten canceled? Just for writing about canceled people. 398 00:21:03,864 --> 00:21:06,944 Speaker 2: There was a lot of reaction on Twitter. A lot 399 00:21:07,024 --> 00:21:11,624 Speaker 2: of people hated the story and criticized everything from these 400 00:21:11,664 --> 00:21:15,904 Speaker 2: people are boring to why are you giving this concept 401 00:21:15,944 --> 00:21:19,264 Speaker 2: of being canceled any kind of air? You know, this 402 00:21:19,464 --> 00:21:22,144 Speaker 2: was just a credulous report about people who are bad people, 403 00:21:22,704 --> 00:21:26,064 Speaker 2: And you know, in the end, I just have to 404 00:21:26,064 --> 00:21:29,584 Speaker 2: trust make up, which is that. I think this little 405 00:21:29,664 --> 00:21:33,144 Speaker 2: group actually opens up a lot of really substant questions 406 00:21:33,424 --> 00:21:37,664 Speaker 2: about what we think as a society about how to 407 00:21:37,664 --> 00:21:40,744 Speaker 2: deal with people who have, either in their thoughts or 408 00:21:40,784 --> 00:21:45,464 Speaker 2: their words or their deeds, transgressed boundaries, especially in a 409 00:21:45,504 --> 00:21:48,304 Speaker 2: time when those boundaries are shifting and there's a lot 410 00:21:48,304 --> 00:21:51,144 Speaker 2: of disagreement about where those boundaries should be. I think 411 00:21:51,144 --> 00:21:54,584 Speaker 2: it's really important to try to engage with that question, 412 00:21:54,704 --> 00:21:57,424 Speaker 2: because it's not just about the thought criminals, whatever you 413 00:21:57,424 --> 00:21:59,824 Speaker 2: think about the thought criminals, it's about trying to grapple 414 00:21:59,984 --> 00:22:01,904 Speaker 2: with these questions of sit and forgiveness. 415 00:22:02,544 --> 00:22:04,464 Speaker 1: Would you go back if they embrage you just for fun? 416 00:22:05,264 --> 00:22:07,464 Speaker 2: I got enough going on. I got other stuff to do. 417 00:22:10,264 --> 00:22:13,144 Speaker 1: Emma Green, you wrote the party is canceled for the 418 00:22:13,184 --> 00:22:17,264 Speaker 1: New Yorker. Thank you so much for coming on and 419 00:22:17,344 --> 00:22:18,144 Speaker 1: for your bravery. 420 00:22:18,544 --> 00:22:23,344 Speaker 2: Ha I will not accept the praise of bravery because 421 00:22:23,344 --> 00:22:27,264 Speaker 2: I think that would be cringe but I am so 422 00:22:27,344 --> 00:22:28,504 Speaker 2: happy to have come on. 423 00:22:28,424 --> 00:22:30,744 Speaker 1: Your podcast, and may you never be canceled. 424 00:22:32,024 --> 00:22:35,664 Speaker 2: May you never be canceled to you too. 425 00:22:35,864 --> 00:22:39,424 Speaker 1: I am so sorry to inform you, but just by 426 00:22:39,464 --> 00:22:44,464 Speaker 1: listening to this podcast, you've been canceled. See you listen 427 00:22:44,504 --> 00:22:48,144 Speaker 1: to a podcast about people who've done questionable things, and 428 00:22:48,184 --> 00:22:52,744 Speaker 1: by doing that, you've now tacitly endorsed those questionable things. 429 00:22:53,584 --> 00:23:00,384 Speaker 1: So you're canceled. You should probably not check Twitter right now. 430 00:23:01,904 --> 00:23:05,104 Speaker 3: At the end of the show, what's next for Joel Stein? 431 00:23:05,304 --> 00:23:09,504 Speaker 1: Maybe you'll take a never poke around online. Our show 432 00:23:09,544 --> 00:23:13,984 Speaker 1: is produced by Joey fish Ground, Mola Board and nih 433 00:23:14,024 --> 00:23:17,264 Speaker 1: event Cut. It was edited by Lydia jeden Kopp. Our 434 00:23:17,304 --> 00:23:19,944 Speaker 1: engineer is a Mantha kay Wang and our executive producer 435 00:23:20,024 --> 00:23:23,304 Speaker 1: is kath Ronald Cherradah. Our theme song was produced by 436 00:23:23,384 --> 00:23:26,544 Speaker 1: Jonathan Coltman. A special thanks to my voice coach Vicky 437 00:23:26,664 --> 00:23:30,784 Speaker 1: Merrick and my consulting producer Laurence Alasnik. To find more 438 00:23:30,784 --> 00:23:35,744 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 439 00:23:35,784 --> 00:23:39,664 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein and 440 00:23:39,744 --> 00:23:41,504 Speaker 1: this is story of the Week. 441 00:23:43,344 --> 00:23:46,984 Speaker 2: I hope that nothing I said will bring me any 442 00:23:46,984 --> 00:23:49,024 Speaker 2: more trouble than I've already gotten into. 443 00:23:49,304 --> 00:23:50,624 Speaker 1: Are you worried about anything in particular? 444 00:23:50,944 --> 00:23:53,904 Speaker 2: No, not really, but you know, for my sake, just 445 00:23:53,944 --> 00:23:55,984 Speaker 2: listen to make sure I don't say anything terrible. 446 00:23:56,344 --> 00:23:58,824 Speaker 1: Are you worried about the stuff you said about the Jews. 447 00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:03,144 Speaker 2: Nah, that part's fine.