1 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: Sharon Neve is a cognitive psychologist and co founder of 2 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,479 Speaker 1: Joyous PBC, where she leads the development of AI powered 3 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: affordable mental health programs. Sharon pioneers over eighty three thousand 4 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: patients nationwide in psychoalytic or daily low dose catamine therapy, 5 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: a gentle approach that prioritizes safety and reveals the root 6 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: causes of emotional pain. So instead of quick fixes, Sharon's 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: method helps patients build habits and skills for lasting change 8 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: by harnessing the brain's neuroplasticity, making old patterns truly rewrite themselves. 9 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: She's also the founder of Joyous for Therapists, a free 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: collaboration space for clinicians interested in these cutting edge, evidence 11 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: based methods. Wow, that was a mouthful. 12 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: Kelly out. 13 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: First of all, hi's your own. How are you? 14 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 3: Hi? 15 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: Kelly, It's great to be with you. Thank you, I'm good. 16 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 3: How are you? 17 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 1: I'm good? If any of if you're listening and you 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: were thinking what to a couple of the words, We're 19 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: going to get into that because I literally just spent 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: ten minutes asking the same face. Let's start with we 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: were talking about Joyous PBC, and I love what you 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: guys are doing. So can you explain what PBC means 23 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: to the listeners because I had no idea either. 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 3: Sure. So PBC is public benefits corporation and from like 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 3: a tax structure, we're like any other corporation. But what 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: PBC means is we are allowed to put mission above 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 3: profit and that is a signal to shareholders that And 28 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: at this point we're not public, so you know, there 29 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: are no shareholders beyond the company. But if we do 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 3: go public, it is still a signal that we are 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 3: going to prioritize the mission. 32 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: Of this company, which is to. 33 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: Allow individuals, families, communities, and humanity to live joyous lives. 34 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 3: That allows us to keep the price at the most 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 3: affordable ketamine treatment that we're aware of nationally. 36 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: That is huge because I feel like so much in 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: the mental health space has become about I mean, therapists. 38 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: Everyone has to make a living, right, but you don't 39 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: want to lose the nature of what you're doing to 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: make a profit necessarily. I understand the battle of that, 41 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: but it's so refreshing to hear someone with a company 42 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: with a mission of truly just trying to help people. 43 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 2: Thank you. 44 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, And we are enabling ourselves to do that just 45 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: by having this genius tech team that really put together 46 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 3: the medical records, the prescriptions, the telehealth providers, and they 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 3: did it so seamlessly. I don't want to say seamlessly. 48 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 3: It's not like we never have hiccups. It's never like 49 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: a prescriptions never late. But on the whole, it's a 50 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: really well functioning operation and that's what kind of allows 51 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 3: us to be so affordable. 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: Well, let's get into the nitty gritty because ketamine is 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: obviously a huge buzz word lately, and this is interesting, 54 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: but if any listeners watch Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, 55 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: which is one of the most trendy reality shows, and 56 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: they were talking about this recently and so I've seen 57 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: it everywhere on social media because it's a huge show. 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: And some of the girls went and did this ketamine 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: therapy again similar to what you are talking about with 60 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: this low dose kind of integrating it into therapy. But 61 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: I still think it's one of those things a lot 62 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: of people don't know a lot about. So I want 63 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: to give people a background. How did you even get 64 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: into working with ketamine and how is it used in 65 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: your facility? 66 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, this was the brainchild of our chairman, whose name 67 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: is Zachary. 68 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 2: Not and he seeing the immense power of. 69 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: Psychedelic medicine and told me at one point my next 70 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 3: venture is going to be in the psychedelic space. 71 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: And as we started to explore what are the options. 72 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: There, how can we how can we do this and 73 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: provide really profound value, we saw that there are already 74 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: several telehealth companies offering higher dose ketamine and often what 75 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: that looks like is sending larger doses home to the 76 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: individual and maybe then you train like a family member 77 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: or a friend to be your sitter just for safety reasons, 78 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 3: not really for therapy reasons, and you go and have 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: these deeper journeys with academy. And so one, we saw 80 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: that already exists, but two we also had some concerns 81 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 3: about what that means. 82 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: Because often people who are doing this could. 83 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 3: Be psychedelically naive, like they maybe have never had that experience, 84 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 3: and it can be a pretty jarring experience, you know. 85 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: It's epistemically transformative, is the academic term, and that just 86 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: means like it can shift the way you view the world, 87 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 3: and that's a lot for people, especially if they're depressed 88 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 3: if they're anxious and they don't have, you know, the 89 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,239 Speaker 3: most supportive environment around them, that can be a lot. 90 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: And so very serendipitously, Zach happened to meet the woman 91 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: who who is our chief medical officer, Bobby Leeban, and 92 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: they just sat next to each other at a conference 93 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: and she started telling him about over five hundred patients 94 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: that she personally treated. She's a medical doctor. With this 95 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 3: very low dose you can call it microdosing. There's like 96 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: a debate in the field is it microdosing because it's 97 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 3: not sub perceptual. 98 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 2: You're ketamine tupsy. You feel it. 99 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 3: It's like a glass and a half of wine, different 100 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 3: than alcohol, different effects, of course, so you do feel it. 101 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: So it's maybe not microdosing in the classic sense, but 102 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: it's microdosing compared to these journeys that can be you know, 103 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 3: really jarring to the system. And so we said, let's 104 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: pilot this, let's see how this goes. And the results 105 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 3: we started to see were just so profound. It does 106 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: appear that the low dose consistent approach is as if 107 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 3: not more effective for treating depression, anxiety and symptoms of 108 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 3: PTSD than the higher dose stuff and it's gentler. It's 109 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: kind of like a low go logo. Slow is the 110 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: one of the internal phrases we like to use, and 111 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 3: it does allow for skill building, which is not to 112 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: pooh pooh like higher dose ketamine. That can be really 113 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: effective for people, I think, provided that they have the 114 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 3: right container, the right support, the right sort of framework 115 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 3: for how to integrate what they experienced back into their lives. 116 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 3: But with the low dose stuff that you take on 117 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: a more consistent basis, our patients start out with at 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: least for the first couple of weeks, if not longer, 119 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 3: daily use, there's time to skill build. You can go 120 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 3: into that state again and again and start to see 121 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: how am I going to relate to the contents of 122 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 3: my psychology again and again and again, And with practice 123 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 3: comes real neuroplasticity and change. So that's what we've been doing. 124 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: That is so interesting. So we've had a couple people, 125 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: different people on talking about psilocybin in a similar way, 126 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: Like you can do the high dose which is something 127 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: I've done, and then the micro dosing thing and integrated 128 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: into your daily life. What is the difference between a 129 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: psilocybin situation and ketamine? 130 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 3: Sure, So just starting from the neuroscience. They work on 131 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: very different neurotransmitter systems a psilocybin and LSD and ayahuasca 132 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 3: and what else is in the trip demane family what. 133 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: Tuma san pedro gmt. 134 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, absolutely, they all work on the serratinergic system, 135 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 3: and ketamine works on the glutamate system, which is the 136 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: most prevalent excitatory system in the brain. So basically, anytime 137 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: you have neurons firing, glutamate is involved. So ketamine is 138 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: quite global. First of all, the things they have in 139 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: common are that both have been found to reduce what 140 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 3: can be called. 141 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: Top down processing. 142 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: So if you think about the way we experience the world, 143 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: we think that we're taking in stuff as it actually happens, 144 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 3: but neuroscience tells us that we really view the world 145 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 3: through our predictions and expectations and the lenses that we've 146 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: come to, like build over the decades. 147 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: Of our lives. 148 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: What ketamine and celcibin both do is shift that balance 149 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 3: from the top down of like I see the world 150 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: as I already see it, to the bottom up, which 151 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 3: is I'm reprocessing the actual sets free experience in a 152 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: new way. And because those frameworks those beliefs are loosened, 153 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: the top down is loosened. There's a chance for restructuring 154 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 3: and like viewing your experience from new perspectives and solidifying 155 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: those new perspectives instead of the old ones. So that's 156 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 3: what they have in common. In terms of the experience, 157 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 3: it's actually quite different. Like cel cibin and trip to 158 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 3: means are not good for my system. 159 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 2: For everyone's different and for whatever reason. 160 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 3: But what I do remember of the experiences I do 161 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 3: have is that there's a real intensity to them. Both 162 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 3: medicines can be very visual for sure, doesn't have to be, 163 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 3: but can be at higher doses. The ketamine visualizations have 164 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 3: a different quality. People describe like crystal palaces that they 165 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: go into, just something very ethereal, something very cosmic. Cello cybin, 166 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: I think works with a lot of symbology. You just 167 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 3: see a lot of like specific images. You know, people 168 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: describe like, oh, I saw myself as a gargoyle and 169 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 3: thinking of Michael Pollin's book, or you know, I see 170 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 3: like a bird that's bleeding and that represented something to 171 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 3: me that doesn't happen so much with ketamine at the 172 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: higher doses. 173 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: At the lower doses, there's very little visualization. 174 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 3: In terms of the somatic experience, which is really important 175 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 3: for psychology. The cello cybin is quite intense. You really 176 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 3: feel like you're in it with your content ketamine. It's 177 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 3: a dissociative anesthetic as a class of medicine, so at 178 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 3: high doses it's actually used surgically, like even with children, 179 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 3: because it's it is such a safe medication that it's 180 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: used like routinely in. 181 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: Oars with kids, in surgeries with kids. 182 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 3: But because it has that dissociative anesthetic quality, there's a 183 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 3: spaciousness that happens in the body. And in these low doses, 184 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: the feeling that you get is almost like your body 185 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: becomes porous. You feel like permeable. I can feel the 186 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: space inside and outside of my body. 187 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: I'm bigger than my body. 188 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: And gosh, I heard this great metaphor from my meditation 189 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 3: teacher last night, but I'll share in a moment. But 190 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 3: what this essentially allows you to do is to feel like, 191 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: instead of being trapped in your body with the overwhelming 192 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:30,840 Speaker 3: nervous system sensations that can be typical of negative emotionality, depression, anxiety, trauma, 193 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: you're in a bigger room now that stuff might still 194 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 3: be happening, but it doesn't fill you up in the 195 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: same way. So it becomes much more manageable, much more 196 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 3: much less overwhelming to work with and to process. The 197 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 3: meditation teacher gave this great example yesterday. He was describing equanimity, 198 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 3: not ketamine. 199 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: I'll give him that. 200 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 3: His name is Michael Taft if anyone wants to looking up. 201 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: But he was like, you know, my brother is an entomologist. 202 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: We used to have jars of hornets in our house. 203 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 3: So if you have a jar of hornets you reach in, 204 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: that's not good. But if you have a giant field 205 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: and there's the same number of hornets, not as problematic. 206 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: You right or wasps I don't remember exactly what he said, 207 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: but it's kind of the same idea. You know, you 208 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: suddenly you're not the jar of negative emotionality, you're the 209 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 3: field and the negative emotionality doesn't take you over. And 210 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 3: what we've learned from like years of PTSD studies, people 211 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 3: like Bessel vander Kolk, if you've read Wow Keeps the 212 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: Sore or Michael Levine, you know, these names are now 213 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: really common because we've become so trauma informed. We've learned 214 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 3: that what is necessary for the nervous system sensations that 215 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 3: got stuck during trauma. For your audience, Basically, what we've 216 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 3: learned is when trauma happens, the body becomes too overwhelmed, 217 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 3: the system is too overwhelmed to handle it, and it 218 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 3: doesn't process it all the way through. It can become 219 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 3: frozen and stuck, and they can produce all sorts of symptoms. 220 00:11:59,080 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: Down the road. 221 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 3: And what's needed to release that is to be able 222 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 3: to fully experience and fuel those nervous system sensations with 223 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 3: a sense of safety. And that's exactly what kind of 224 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 3: Meane provides, is that spaciousness, that safety. One of the 225 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 3: therapists we work with said blanket of safety. I see 226 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 3: my clients coming in with a blanket of safety that 227 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: allows for these things to be processed and dealt with 228 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: much more smoothly, much more naturally, without overwhelm. 229 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 2: So that's forth. 230 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. And you 231 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: actually just answered I was thinking I wanted to ask you. 232 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many listeners and people are used 233 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 1: to me talking about this stuff, so I don't think 234 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 1: they're probably thinking this is that out of left field. 235 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: But I'm sure, there are some listeners who go to 236 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: normal therapy and are like, why would you need to 237 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: involve drugs and therapy? You know that kind of mentality, 238 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: And I want to kind of touch on that, and 239 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: I think you sort of started to with just the 240 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: way that maybe it's makes it a little more expansive, 241 00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: calms our body down. I'll let you speak to that, 242 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 1: because I don't want to butcher it. But that is 243 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: a question for me, is how would you communicate to 244 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: someone asking why can't I just do normal talk therapy 245 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: and get the same results. Why can't I just do 246 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: normal talk therapy and get the same results? 247 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 3: You might be able to and some you know, some 248 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 3: people make a great use of talk therapy. 249 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: It exists for a reason and it's successful. 250 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: What we're hearing from the therapist and our you mentioned earlier, 251 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 3: we have this therapist collaboration program Joyous for Therapist, which 252 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 3: is if you're a therapist listening right now, it is 253 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 3: a free program where we train you. You're currently receive an 254 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 3: eleven point five CE credit certificate and how to work 255 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: with microd's academine. What we're hearing from them is that 256 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: this is great for people who have reached some sort 257 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: of plateau they've been in therapy for a year and 258 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 3: something is not moving. This shift in perspective, this ability 259 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 3: to touch upon stuff that's too overwhelming, can. 260 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: Help break you through that plateau. 261 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 3: If you've gone to therapy and you feel that much better, 262 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 3: that you don't feel like you need kind I mean wonderful. 263 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 3: But if you've been in therapy and something is just 264 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: not moving through you, you're cycling. You're not achieving the 265 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 3: relief that you want from the things that are haunting you. 266 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: This could be a really good tool That. 267 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: Is really interesting because obviously I'm talking about psilocybin, so 268 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: this is a little bit different. But I did therapy 269 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: in twelve step groups for probably a decade and it 270 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: was very beneficial. I would even give it the credit 271 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: to say it saved my life on numerous occasions. And 272 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: then as I got to the space that I got 273 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: when I did this psilocybin trip, I was just stuck 274 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: in a similar cycle in relationship that was my big 275 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: tendency at that time. And what this did was actually 276 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: almost feel like it reset my nervous system to where 277 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't desiring this same need like I was gonna say, 278 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: hits almost of like what that relationship dynamic was giving me. 279 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: They're very toxic relationships, but it calmed my nervous system 280 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: in a way that I was not able to reach 281 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: by doing things in the mind that talk therapy was 282 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: bringing to the table. Is that something you hear often? 283 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Kelly, that is such a great point. We talk 284 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 3: in psychology about like psychological defenses and resistance, and there's 285 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: often a really good reason for that because your body 286 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 3: has learned this is overwhelming. I don't want to be 287 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: I can't afford to be overwhelmed right now. I've got 288 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 3: other things go and and to have these medicines introduced 289 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 3: into the system that allow you to reduce those defenses 290 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 3: and feel less resistance, it is often your Yeah, it's 291 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 3: your system saying nope, we're not going there. When the 292 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: system gets to relax and the medication can really help 293 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 3: with that, suddenly it becomes more accessible to go there. Yeah. 294 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: When you mentioned the word neuroplasticity, which is a huge 295 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: word I've heard throughout the years. If someone doesn't know 296 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: what that means, because you give the definition of neuroplasticity. 297 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 3: Sure, so the brain we used to think like past 298 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 3: the age of twenty one, there was no plasticity. 299 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: The brain is what it was, and that is very 300 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: far from true. 301 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,760 Speaker 3: The truth is like, if you without any medicine go 302 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: and start learning piano tomorrow, that's neuroplastic. You are learning 303 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: new skills, Every new memory is neuroplastic. 304 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: You know, every experience you have there. So neuroplasticity just 305 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: means changes in the brain. 306 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 3: Plastic means changeable, and there are different ways that that 307 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 3: can look like. There's some studies that suggest that there's 308 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 3: birth of new neurons with certain SSRIs in parts of 309 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 3: the brain of the hippocampus. That's a form of neuroplasticity. 310 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 3: The neuroplasticity that you witness most often with ketamine is 311 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: what's called dendrodoplasty or dendrodogenesis, which means there are dendrites 312 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: that grow. So dendrites are the fingers on the post 313 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 3: synaptic neurons. So you've got the pre synaptic neuron is 314 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 3: the one that releases chemicals. Then you have the synapse, 315 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: which is the connection between two neurons, and then the 316 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 3: post synaptic neuron is the one that receives those signals 317 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 3: and continues on with the messaging. 318 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 2: So ketamine helps with. 319 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: New finger formations on this post synaptic neuron, and it 320 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 3: helps to promote more synapses, more new connections in the brain. 321 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 3: So you are literally growing new connections, new pathways. 322 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: Which is an interesting point to make because it means 323 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:34,880 Speaker 2: that what you do in that time matters. 324 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: If you choose to take some ketamine and then go 325 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 3: do harsh self talk and watch horror movies and beat 326 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: yourself up, probably you might be reinforcing that Oh wow. 327 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 3: Choose to take the medicine and fall into spaciousness, meditate, journal, 328 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 3: be out in nature, promote positive emotionality process, you know, 329 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 3: some of the difficult emotions that you've had, those are 330 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 3: the new frameworks that you're laying down in your brain, 331 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 3: the new pathways that are getting reinforced. 332 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 2: So it's an important point. 333 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: Well, that is a very important point, and I think 334 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: often people associate obviously ketamine mushrooms, which is psilocybal. I 335 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: mean that's you know, you hear people talking about them 336 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: in reference of partying too. So whenever some you know, 337 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: whenever I'm having guests on to discuss this in a 338 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 1: therapeutic way, I have noticed some of the kickback is 339 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: like you just want an excuse to do drugs or 340 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: you know, like or if you have I have a 341 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: lot of listeners who have long term twelve steps sobriety 342 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: and things like that, and this can really go against that. 343 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: So it's obviously a case by case scenario and do 344 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: what works for you, et cetera, et cetera. In my experience, 345 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: it has been a tool to work with the other 346 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: parts of the thing. And you mentioned journaling and things 347 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: like that. So when you bring ketamine into the conversation 348 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: in your therapeutic practices, what are some of the other 349 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: ways that you guys are really using it to take 350 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: the client deeper versus just like going on a ride 351 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: for fun, right right, right. 352 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, So these are these are good good topics for 353 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 3: the therapist training program that we did where we do sort 354 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: of ask them like, what are the best ways for 355 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: you to bring this into your therapy session. The things 356 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 3: that we suggest are to make deep, mindful contact with 357 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 3: our wisest self, you know what you might call, you know, 358 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 3: your your highest self, your true nature. 359 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: Some people call it if you're informed in internal family systems. 360 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: It's not very dissimilar from. 361 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: What you call self or TBT not very dissimilar from 362 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 3: what you call wise mind. So there is this nature 363 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 3: inside of us that, in some way, it can be said, 364 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 3: has never been hurt. It's still compassionate, it's still caring, 365 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 3: it's still wise, it's still open and spacious and curious 366 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 3: about the world. And ket I mean gives you more 367 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: access to that. So right off the bat, we always 368 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 3: suggest for a session, start with making some deep contact 369 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 3: with what's going on in your system and see if 370 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: you can connect to this inner wisdom that we all 371 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 3: have and let that be the guide. Beyond that, we 372 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 3: have been telling therapists, whatever you're already doing is just 373 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,239 Speaker 3: going to be enhanced. It's your client who's coming in 374 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 3: more open, more spacious, less defended, less resistant. But there 375 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 3: do seem to be some therapeutic frameworks that are really 376 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: well aligned. EMDR seems to be a very good match 377 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 3: for the lotos ketamine state hypnotherapy IFS, as we mentioned 378 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: internal family systems, anything somatic, so somatic experiencing or sets remoter, 379 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 3: any sort of somatic reprocessing. And that's because again because 380 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 3: the blanket of safety we mentioned, the dissociative piece, you 381 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 3: have a bit more space in your body, so it's 382 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 3: not as overwhelming to be in deep contact with your body. 383 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 3: Those of us who suffered from trauma, from anxiety, from 384 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 3: depression for a long time, it's not comfortable in our bodies. 385 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 3: It feels you know, heavy and sick if you're depressed, 386 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 3: or like panicked and jittery if you're anxious, and you know, 387 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 3: nervous system is regulation with PTSD, it's not. It doesn't 388 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 3: feel good in there, it doesn't. It makes sense that 389 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 3: people don't make deep contact with their bodies, and Ketymine 390 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 3: can allow that to happen. I really believe that there 391 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: are many many therapeutic methods, the. 392 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 2: Ones that aren't as cognitively based. 393 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: You know, if you're just analyzing thought, analyzing thought, maybe 394 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: it really helps to be as sharp as possible. And 395 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: Ketymine does a lot of great things for us experientially, 396 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: but sharpness is not I wouldn't put that top of 397 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 3: the list. So, you know, maybe not the best match 398 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 3: for every single therapy. But like, for example, in a 399 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 3: therapist meetup that we did a month ago, I shared 400 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 3: a video from a psychologist named Dan Brown who died 401 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 3: a couple of years ago. He was a Harvard psychologist 402 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 3: and a Vaudoriana master. He was like one of the 403 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 3: few Westerners invited to teach in the West from his lineage, 404 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 3: and he created a program for attachment repair called the 405 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 3: Idealized Parent Figure Protocol. And part of that, at least 406 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 3: a third of it, is there's building a healthy relationship 407 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: with your therapist, which is great, and people do report 408 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 3: feeling closer to their therapist less defended as a result 409 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 3: of this medicine. There is a metacognitive piece, like growing 410 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 3: more aware and insightful about how your thoughts, your feelings, 411 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: your behaviors, the causes and conditions, like what in the 412 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 3: environment triggers you, getting a better sense of how I'm thinking, 413 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 3: maybe like more theory of my other people are thinking. 414 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: That's a second piller. But the third is a set 415 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 3: of visualizations where you invent ideal parents and you go 416 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 3: through and really imagine yourself as a young child with 417 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: these ideal parents, having corrective experiences around what really happened 418 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 3: to you in childhood. And so we did that a 419 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 3: month and a half ago, I don't know, in a 420 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 3: therapists meet up, and the reports I'm getting back from 421 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 3: therapists is this is so profound for my clients, And yes, 422 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 3: the ketamine kind of helps them with the visualization piece. 423 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 3: They're just more relaxed, they're better able to loosen their 424 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 3: resistance to it. Oh, I don't know, do I feel 425 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: guilty because it's not my real parents? Does this mean 426 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: I'm rejecting my real parents? A lot of that chatter 427 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 3: drops away, and you can engage with the practice with 428 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 3: more ease. So those are some of the things that 429 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 3: we're hearing. So they're just there's so many new approaches 430 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 3: coming out that are more psycho spiritual. I would say 431 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 3: I think we're finally kind of crusting the wave on 432 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: the psychos spiritual revolution in psychology. When I went to school, 433 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 3: it was like. 434 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: All cognitive cognitive, and that's cool that you know. It 435 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: has it's it's effective, it has its benefits. 436 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 3: But we're reaching in deeper now, like we're touching on 437 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 3: the inner child, we're touching on the soul's values, and 438 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 3: we're able to work with these things with these new approaches. 439 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 2: That is really well matched to. 440 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 3: The ketamine state. Ketamine does also just connect you to 441 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 3: a sense of spirituality. It's hard to exactly put that 442 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 3: into words, but it's easier to connect to a sense 443 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 3: of meaning, a larger meaning. 444 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: Something that's holding us all with this medicine. 445 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you I love this because you're going 446 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: exactly where my next questions are. But I was thinking 447 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 1: the same exact thing about the difference in what I 448 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: hear happening in the mental health world now versus even 449 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 1: five or ten years ago. I mean, like you said, 450 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: it was so much about the psychology of things without 451 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: the connection necessarily to your why self, and that completely 452 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: misses to me the point because it limits the healing, 453 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: because if we're not connecting in that way, it's just 454 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: like almost thinking your way out of the problem versus 455 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: the true connection, you know. And for me introducing a 456 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: psychedelic into the practice, I mean, I only did it 457 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: the one big Hero's Journey, But I know the people 458 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: have talked about the micronising in a similar way, in 459 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: that it helps you to see the world through a 460 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: different lens, not in a scary way. I know that 461 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: sounds like a big statement, and you've kind of mentioned 462 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: this at the beginning of the podcast too, but not 463 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: in a scary way, in a way of lowering your 464 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: defenses and not seeing it through your trauma brain necessarily, 465 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: but remembering the truth of why we came here, who 466 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: we are, what our soul's journey is, and all of 467 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: those pieces. So I think it's a beautiful thing to 468 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: connect the two dots, because that's true healing and that's 469 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: how we operate from our higher selves place. Why do 470 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: you think it took so long for us to make 471 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: this connect? 472 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: You know, I think I'm not I'm just going to 473 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 3: talk out of my intuition here. I think that as 474 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: a field, psychology really wanted to be taken seriously understandably, 475 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: and it's still not being taken seriously by you know, 476 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 3: psychiatrists will tell you that they're looked down on by 477 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: other medical doctors. Like we tend to think of as 478 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 3: like the more concrete, the better physics above chemistry, above 479 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: biology above medical, so like applied biology, and then maybe 480 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,439 Speaker 3: psychology and sociology somewhere below that. 481 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 2: Fine. 482 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: At the same time, psychologists wanted to be taken seriously, 483 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 3: and I think they tried to be as concrete as possible, 484 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 3: as manualized as possible, and in order to gain legitimacy 485 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 3: in order to be somewhat more able to it's easier 486 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 3: to test a manualized twelve week CBT approach than it 487 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 3: is to really do a rigorous, scientifically designed study on 488 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,919 Speaker 3: something like psychodynamic therapy, which could take years. There are 489 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 3: too many confounding variables to really derive conclusions, and so 490 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 3: the scientific mindset had us sort of trying to distill, all, right, 491 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 3: what is what are the components that are testable, repeatable, 492 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 3: manualized and that we can standardize and get out there. 493 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 3: And I think there's there's definitely value in that. I 494 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 3: think we've proven out or we never see proof in science, 495 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 3: but like we've really demonstrated the value of therapy and being. 496 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: Deliberate with it. So interesting. 497 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 3: Had I had a therapist, he was like a ninety 498 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 3: year old Jewish psychoanalyst, psychiatrist. 499 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 2: His wife co founded Spirit Rock. 500 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 3: Who's that's one of the uh that's Jack Cornfield's center 501 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 3: in northern California. So he was like really involved in 502 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 3: the world of you know, the sixty. 503 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: He went to dinner. 504 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 3: With Rom Bass and uh, oh wow, the guy from 505 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 3: integirl Ken Wilbur I know, yeah, he got to know 506 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: all those He passed away unfortunately, but he got to 507 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 3: know all those guys and he told me that the 508 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: original Freudian writing, which. 509 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: Was he was Austrian. 510 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: Don't remember for if it was in German or what 511 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 3: language it was in, but the original writing had a 512 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 3: huge mention of love liba. 513 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 2: And when the. 514 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: English, when the British translated it, they scraped it of 515 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: all that because it didn't seem scientific enough, medical enough, 516 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,719 Speaker 3: you know, clinical enough. So it's not like it was 517 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 3: never there. But their psychology is a field I think 518 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 3: had to go through a process of trying to be 519 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 3: taken seriously as a science. I'm not a clinical psychologist, 520 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,439 Speaker 3: didn't I didn't do my ass my license, but I 521 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 3: did five years of clinical psychology graduate school. 522 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,959 Speaker 2: There was never a mention of spirituality. It just just 523 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: didn't come up. 524 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: Not love, not not spirituality, not enlightenment. I mean, it's 525 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 3: it's kind of incredible that certain parts of the world 526 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 3: are so aware that there is another operating system available 527 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 3: in the human brain, and that is the spectrum of enlightenment. 528 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 3: And I studied, you know, human psychology for five years 529 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 3: at the graduate level and it was never once mentioned. 530 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 2: So we're we're making steps. 531 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 1: Feel Yeah, it's interesting because when you were talking about 532 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: doctors looking down on psychologists. I'm like, that is the 533 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: most twisted, out of order thing because our mental health 534 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: is the main thing. That's what makes all our physical 535 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: health go to shit. So like like if you're carrying 536 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: stuck emotions, that makes you sick. So as great as 537 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: it is that we have doctors and medical doctors, you 538 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: need the brain and the heart doctors tube or like 539 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: the psychologists and things like that or else, we're not 540 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: going to stay healthy anyway. 541 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 2: That is so out of where we're finally getting there. 542 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I want to talk a little bit about 543 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 4: if anyone is listening and they're like. 544 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: Okay, this sounds interesting, but like intimidating, you know, where 545 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: would I start? And I think you talk about this 546 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: daily low dose and that's a lot more feasible to 547 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: people than maybe like the hero's journey thing like I did, 548 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: where it's just like the big the band aid, let's 549 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: do this thing. Can you talk a little bit about that? 550 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 2: And by the way, like kudos to your courage. 551 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: That's thank you huge. That's just the way I do things. 552 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: I'm just an all or like I go all in. Yeah, 553 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: let's talk. 554 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good way to be in many ways. 555 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 2: So one it's affordable. 556 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 3: It's one hundred and twenty nine dollars a month, So 557 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 3: if you want to try it out and it doesn't 558 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 3: feel right, it's not going to kill your bank account. Two. 559 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 3: We start extremely low. Maybe I should take a step 560 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 3: back and say go to joyous dot team. 561 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 2: That is our website. You can learn more there. 562 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 3: See some patient testimonials, hear from other people, see, you know, 563 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 3: see what it's done for them, and the patient testimonials 564 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: are are really lovely to watch. It is humbling how 565 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 3: often we hear I feel like myself. 566 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: Again after thirty years of depression. You know, it's a 567 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: It's a beautiful thing. So you start there. 568 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: There's like a gut started quizlet that basically looks through 569 00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: to see if there are any medical or psychiatric red 570 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: flat like. Unfortunately, this is not a good match for 571 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 3: people with a psychosist history. We don't currently work with 572 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: people who have mania, even though there's some research that 573 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 3: suggests that kind of mein could be helpful to bipolar disorder. 574 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: But we think that's high acuity enough that it might 575 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 3: be better to work with a psychiatrist much more hand 576 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 3: in hand than tele. 577 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 2: Health Bipolar Two. We will work with. 578 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 3: So there are a couple of psychiatric contraindications, a couple 579 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 3: of medical ones. If you have uncontrolled blood pressure, not 580 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 3: a good fit. History of hemorrhaging seizures, probably not a 581 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: good fit. So we'll take care of that and make 582 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 3: sure you're a good fit medically psychiatrically. You get through 583 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: that first little quizlet if you're a good candidate and 584 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 3: you're in the rights, we're in twenty eight states. We 585 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,120 Speaker 3: are in Tennessee, not in Louisiana. Funny that I know that, 586 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 3: but I do. It's not like I memorized all twenty eight. 587 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 3: So you then, if you want to make an appointment 588 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 3: with a provider, you don't have to pay it. You 589 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 3: make an appointment. You have to fill in a medical intake, 590 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 3: which takes like it depends how much detail and how 591 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: many things you you know trigger in terms of like, oh, yeah, 592 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 3: I give us history about that, between ten and twenty 593 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 3: minutes of written intake based on a standard psychiatric interview. 594 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: You then have your. 595 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: Telehealth appointment, after your appointment of your provider, when they 596 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: make sure yes, this is a good fit, when you've 597 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 3: had all your questions answered, whatever questions you have they're there, 598 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: they're trained to respond to that. You mutually make a 599 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 3: decision about whether this is a good fit or not, 600 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 3: so that if the provider decides it's a good good fit, 601 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 3: they'll send the prescription to the pharmacy. Only then are 602 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: you asked do you want to do you want to 603 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 3: subscribe to this? Do you want to try it out? 604 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 3: So then you like pay if you want to. It 605 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 3: arrives at your home a couple of days later, and 606 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,560 Speaker 3: we will start sending you text messages that give the 607 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 3: instructions of how to use it. 608 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 2: So you start out with. 609 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 3: A dose that's so low that many people don't feel 610 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: it at all. 611 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 2: It's fifteen milligrams. 612 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 3: It's about a twenty five percent bioavailability, so you're getting 613 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 3: like four milligrams of kettemine in your system, fewer than that. 614 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: If all goes well in those first few doses, you 615 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 3: get these daily check ins that just look at sleep, 616 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 3: side effects, mood, general outlook, your symptoms, and on that basis, 617 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 3: the system makes decisions algorithmically about whether to raise you 618 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 3: to lower you, to say you, maybe you take this 619 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 3: earlier in the day that might be better for you. 620 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: You you might. 621 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 3: Want to split that dose into two or three smaller doses. Great, cool, 622 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: It is cool, And so within like six weeks, ninety 623 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 3: something percent of patients are at the right dose for them. 624 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 3: And because we move up so slowly, it's just rarely 625 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 3: an overwhelming experience. Yeah, you know, we're not going to 626 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 3: throw you into the deep end with like something that's 627 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 3: just going to make you feel like, WHOA, I don't 628 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 3: even recognize myself. 629 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: You go up slowly and gradually. 630 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 3: Vast majority of patients find it to be a pleasant experience. 631 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: Something like ten to fifteen percent have some side effects 632 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 3: that we work through. We are after eighty forty five 633 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 3: thousand patients. 634 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: We like are very good at it. 635 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 3: Now. 636 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, got it down. 637 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 3: You're telling us you got this kind of okay, try 638 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 3: like eating a small meal. Light down should go away 639 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 3: within a week. You want some zofriend, we'll send you 640 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 3: some soap y. We really know how to deal with it. 641 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 3: And the majority of patients don't have side effects, so 642 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 3: it is good. 643 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 1: So you guys provide that, And then do you send 644 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: people to like do they keep working with their therapists 645 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: or is that something y'all do? Y'all provide telehealth wise 646 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 1: as well. 647 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: This is one hundred and twenty nine dollars a month. 648 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, as as you started out saying therapists deserve. 649 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 2: To be paid, we can't have a therapist. 650 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 3: We can't pay a therapist for one hundred and twenty 651 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 3: dollars a month given that we also have pharmacy in this. 652 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 3: So if you come in with your own therapist, you 653 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 3: continue on with that therapist and we send you a 654 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 3: message at some point down a few weeks in saying, hey, 655 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 3: would you like to send your therapists to us and 656 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 3: we'll train them on how to work with these doses 657 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 3: for free. 658 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 2: This doesn't cost your therapist to anything. 659 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 3: If in fact, like therapists needs something like thirty six 660 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,359 Speaker 3: continuing education. 661 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: Hours every two years, we'll give them a third of 662 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 2: that free. Yeah, just bring them over again. 663 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 3: PBC allows us to do this, which is awesome, and 664 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 3: so we will train your therapist if they're interested, and 665 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 3: you're interested. 666 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: If you don't have a therapist and you want one. 667 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 3: One of the purposes of the therapist program is to 668 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,839 Speaker 3: create a directory of folks that we trust. They've done 669 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 3: the certificate, got it, they know the basics at least 670 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: of ketamine therapy and we can vouch that they're informed. 671 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 3: Here's a directory. You live in Tennessee. We've got I 672 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 3: don't know five therapists. See which one resonates with you 673 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 3: in terms of the profile. Hopefully more than that soon. 674 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's huge. Well, we kind of touched on the 675 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: psycho spirituality as this huge growing factor in the mental 676 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: health world. But if you had to think about what's 677 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: happening in the mental health world right now, what is 678 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: the thing you're most excited about. 679 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 3: You know, it's a double edged sword, of course, but 680 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 3: the idea as it is and then like a big, 681 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: big edge. So I think there are things that AI 682 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 3: is good at and there are things that AA is 683 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 3: not good at. And I would like to think of 684 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 3: AI as a potential to really scale strong psycho education. 685 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:11,400 Speaker 2: Like if you have a good coach, someone who. 686 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 3: Can help you get some frameworks in place to understand 687 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 3: why certain things are happening in your life and to 688 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 3: bring to bring some tools that you can use. I 689 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 3: think AI could be really good for coaching. What it's 690 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,919 Speaker 3: not good at, I think is the relationship piece, which 691 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 3: is actually fairly crucial, right, Like you need a healing 692 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 3: relationship too, and I don't look forward to a future 693 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 3: where most people are getting that from AI. 694 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 2: That don't like to think about that. 695 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 3: But I think AI is very good at psycho education, 696 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 3: at teaching you some really important facts about you and 697 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 3: your psychology, at personalizing exercises. Like you know, we talked 698 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 3: about CBT is being limited, but CBT is effective. It's limited, 699 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 3: but effective. There are some excellent ways to help people 700 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 3: start to identify some thought patterns that are making them 701 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 3: miserable and help them skillfully to replace them with more 702 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 3: adaptive ways of thinking. And it's it is also good 703 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 3: at the I mentioned earlier, the idealized parent figure protocol. 704 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 3: I think it could be good at helping you with 705 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 3: visualizations as well, so like guidances, meditations. So I think, yeah, 706 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 3: there are ways that I think AI will scale tools 707 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 3: for people who want those tools. 708 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit worried about therapy AI. 709 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 3: You know, for good reasons, and I've seen some bad 710 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 3: stuff already, but that it is exciting to think we 711 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 3: can scale a lot of stuff. I don't want to make, 712 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 3: you know, the perfect the enemy of the good. Yes, 713 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,719 Speaker 3: I was recently listening to like a Harvard roundtable of 714 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 3: psychiatrists and AI came up, and I was bracing myself 715 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: to hear just like, no, this is all terrible. They were. 716 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 3: They were very even even like there are good uses 717 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 3: for AI and it is going to help with some 718 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 3: scaling issues and some stuff is basic, you know, if 719 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,839 Speaker 3: we can get the basics true. 720 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 2: To the AI so that. 721 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 3: People are not in great economic places unfortunately in this country, 722 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 3: so you can't just have a therapist in your back 723 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 3: pocket two hundred and fifty dollars a week every week. 724 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,400 Speaker 3: It's just so the therapist can be there for the 725 00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 3: more high acuity times in your life, more high acuity cases, 726 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,359 Speaker 3: and then maybe some of the lower the lower acuity 727 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 3: needs could be handled by like a good AI coach. 728 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. 729 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,959 Speaker 1: I like using the word coach. That's good. 730 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 731 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: Well, this is very interesting and obviously we're just touching 732 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: the surface of this topic. So if you guys have 733 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: any more questions, I'm going to link all of Sharon's 734 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: information and links to the website where you can go 735 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: check all this out. I think it's an important thing 736 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: to talk about. Again, Like I said in my own 737 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: Experienced Psychedelics, we're super helpful. Just to take me to 738 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: that next level of the deep dive of my healing journey. 739 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: But and it's completely stuck with me too. It's it's 740 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: like a for me. It was like a one time 741 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,880 Speaker 1: thing I did that has had lasting impact for years. 742 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: So it's highly beneficial. If you are interested, go check 743 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: out all of the joyous websites and shrun herself. I'll 744 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: put all of this info in the description of this podcast. 745 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for being here. It's just 746 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: really informative. 747 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: Kelly, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me, 748 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 2: and it's really appreciate. 749 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening.