WEBVTT - Finale: What’s Next? 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.040 This is the Pike to Massacre. Returned to Pike County 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:14.800 Season two finale, What's Next. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:18.160 producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:21.520 For the finale of season two, we wanted to devote 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:25.560 some time to answering listener questions this season. You've really 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.880 helped lead us down some interesting and unexpected roads. We 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:31.159 culled through a bunch of submissions and picked out a 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.920 few questions that we felt needed to be discussed. We 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.720 also invited a group of our regular contributors to join 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.880 reporters James Pilcher and Angeanette Levy, as well as forensics 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:47.320 expert Joseph Morgan. Welcome to the finale. It's been quite 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.480 a surprising season. It's been a shocking season, I think yeah. 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:52.839 I mean we started with a crazy turn of events, 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:57.120 and now as we're learning more about the accused and 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.800 the victims themselves, there's never a moment where I'm not 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.400 prized by this case and what happened. And I think 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.480 as we learn more and as these trials start to happen, 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.920 I think that's only going to continue. That is The 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:09.600 thing that I think I loved most about this season 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.320 is some of the unexpected turns that we took. Really 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:16.840 this show sort of unfolded real time, obviously starting with 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:20.600 the initial plea with Jake Wagner, but then also we've 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:24.319 done a couple of stories that were guided by listeners 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.480 that we dug into to really look at the area. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.080 We really spend a lot of time this week digging 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.440 into questions that we've been following along the way over 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.440 the course of both seasons. The three top things we 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.160 got were what are the details of what happened in Alaska? 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:43.080 Where is Jake's wife Elizabeth? And who is the informant? 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:48.080 And those questions drive each of us every day, and 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:53.000 we do not know the answers, and we and journalists 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.480 and experts have been digging, and the answers thus far 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.160 have been impossible to come by, but that will not 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.000 remain the case forever. We had a conversation today with 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.440 two people that hopefully we can report back on that 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.920 is mind blowing. And you know, that's a little bit 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:12.120 of a piece of the puzzle. Right as we produce 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.880 this podcast, as we produce anything, there are certain conversations 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:17.880 that happened on the record. There are certain that happened 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.680 off the record. Obviously, legally speaking, we have to have 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:23.959 perfect releases in order for us to air certain pieces 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.240 of information, you know, gossip, conjecture, things that are a 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:31.880 matter of non fact are not usable and because of 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:36.359 the gag order at this exact second, it's maddening because 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.840 we get to speak to certain people and we're not 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:45.520 able to share that information. Mike from Asheville, North Carolina wrote, 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.120 why did you guys do all these breakoff episodes like 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.840 the Michael Moran's story and the Curtis Francis story. Listeners 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.400 wrote into us and gave us a heads up to 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.480 be looking into these stories deeper, which was fascinating because truthfully, 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.040 I don't know that we would have gone down that 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.240 path had listeners not reached out and alerted us to 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.520 other stories that were happening in the area, which really 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.239 does speak to the totality of crime in a really 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.640 specific pocket of the country. They definitely spoke to this 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:15.840 theme of injustice in the community, and I mean, these 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:18.320 were happening in the rodent's backyard, and so to not 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:20.480 mention them would feel like we were not telling the 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.239 complete story of this community. And like the Rodent case, 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.919 the Curtis Francis case is so complicated and so tragic, 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:32.000 and the benefit of having a season two is really 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:34.720 being able to explore some of these stories more. In 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:36.360 the same way we were able to expand on the 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.800 Rodent's story at the Gilly story, we were able to 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.280 do that with Curtis Francis, which is an honor to 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:45.480 be able to do that. And so my question to you, James, 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.920 so you report extensively on Michael Moran, why was that 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.200 story important to you and how, if it all, does 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.440 it relate back to the Rodent case? As I said 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.240 in the episode, and I still feel this that I 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.600 feel I owe the women the truth that you know, 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.680 there's was a part of me looking at it from 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:11.160 my male, white, privileged perspective that this stuff didn't really happen. 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:13.880 You know, I had no idea, so I almost didn't 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.400 believe it at first, and so when I found out 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.200 it was true, it became like almost a mission of 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:21.359 mine to say, you know what, more people need to 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.599 know about this kind of thing. So that's for the 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:28.599 Moran story specifically and sex trafficking. I've done subsequent stories 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.440 about sex trafficking in the numbers state by state. So yeah, 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.240 that's been a major focus of mine since I started 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.279 reporting this story. As a legal disclaimer, we should note 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.960 that Michael Moran has been arrested on charges including human 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.320 trafficking and promoting prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty to 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.640 all charges and denied any ties to sex trafficking. He's 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.000 currently awaiting trial. How it relates back, you know, I 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.599 wouldn't say that, you know, there's not a direct correlation 0:04:53.760 --> 0:04:57.680 between the Wagner's and Michael Moran, or the Rodents and 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.800 Michael Moran. I think it just gets to the aspect 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.040 of rural America that most people don't see, and that 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:06.400 law enforcement in that part of the country and these 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:10.400 parts of the country just isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted, 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:16.320 in depth, complicated investigations. And you guys covered it when 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:20.440 you covered the Hopper Road episode. I completely admire what 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:25.440 Jodie Barr did with the Hopper Road story and how 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.240 even if they don't get a conviction, at least people 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.520 have an understanding of what might have happened. Start out 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.320 to Jodie Barr for what he did in that story, 0:05:34.320 --> 0:05:38.560 because he really did. He changed people's lives, you know exactly. 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.680 You know, I saw something today. I won't name the publication, 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:44.400 but there's a story out there saying that true crime 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:48.400 is booming and whatever. But it is nothing more than 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.960 a love letter to law enforcement. And I want to 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.080 write the author and said, have you listened to any 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:58.080 of this? Have you listened to some of the stuff 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:00.719 that you guys have done and some other my colleagues 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.000 have done. No, this is about unsolved. Why isn't this 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:07.320 mystery solved? So I completely You know, there are people 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:10.040 who think, oh, true crime is nothing more than making 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.000 the cops look good. Well, no, I completely disagree with that. 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.160 It's as much about holding the cops accountable as it 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.480 is about telling the stories of the victims. And by 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.760 the way things go away in the night, if nobody's 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.559 talking about something, it just gets swept under the rug. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.760 And likely when you take a closer look, which we 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.200 get the benefit of doing in a podcast of again 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.360 the totality of the abuse of power, or a real 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:33.920 look at how things are being covered and are they 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.520 being covered enough? And are these cases being highlighted enough? 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:41.240 You know, oftentimes listen investigators are investigating as much as 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:43.000 they can and as fast as they can. We get 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.960 the benefit of being a little bit courtside and taking 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.080 even a closer look with the benefit of tons of time. 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:52.279 And the hope really always is so hopefully move the 0:06:52.320 --> 0:06:55.120 needle to either move a case forward and or to 0:06:55.160 --> 0:07:02.000 make sure it doesn't happen again. Zach from Wilmington, Delaware 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.560 asked have there been efforts to reach back out to 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.400 the Wagner family members whatever happened to Deray the Wagner 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.480 relative from season one. We've spoken to Deray numerous times 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:15.160 since the hearing. She was one of our first phone calls, 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.560 and it is obviously very raw for her. I mean, 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:21.760 she spent, as listeners know, a lot of time proclaiming 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.120 her family's innocence, and Deray I think is heartbroken and 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:27.480 that is the only way to put it. And she 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.760 declined to participate this season because I think she is 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.160 not sure how to feel and how even if she 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:35.160 was sure how to feel, how to even explain that 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:39.800 to the masses. Could you imagine anything more horrifying? Of course, 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.160 we defend our families, and my understanding was I'm not 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.040 sure if Deray had directly spoken to Jake, but I 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:48.040 know that Jake was giving the impression to at least 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:50.440 his grandmother that he was innocent, and so they were 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.440 shocked that all of a sudden, he's in the courtroom 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:56.200 saying the opposite of that. So you know what I 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:00.000 spoke to Deray the day of the hearing. She was confused. 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:01.720 She thought, did someone put him up to this? Is 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.920 he not in the right frame of mind. She wasn't 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:05.640 sure what was going on because this was not the 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.920 person that she had known for his entire life. So 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.800 my question, a Jeanette, is what has your experience been 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.080 reaching out to the Wagner family members if you have, well, 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:20.400 I've only really reached out to the lawyer's Billy Wagner's 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.240 lawyer got back to me very politely and just you know, 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:27.960 said that anytime there's a crime with multiple defendants, you 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:30.240 know that one of them may or may not, So 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.480 you don't see that there's always that chance and they're 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:35.240 going to look at the case that type of thing. 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:38.880 I didn't really reach out to Frederica or anything like that. 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.360 Anytime I've done that, it's not been fruitful. So I 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:46.480 just didn't see any points I've reached out in the past, 0:08:46.720 --> 0:08:51.959 and she doesn't say anything. Frederica Wagner had been very 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:56.079 vocal and speaking to the press, and as of today, 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.040 she has not said one thing publicly about her family. 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:04.240 Jake has played out, So I'm curious what's going on 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:08.880 with her personally and also what the implications will be 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:14.760 in the upcoming trials. Same with Rita Joe Nukam, Angela's mother. 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.840 I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers. Frederica seems to be 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:22.959 a complicated person. I mean, Frederica, as we know, is 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.200 a staple in the community in terms of her presence 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:28.720 with real estate and businesses. I just think about the 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:30.760 ripple effects of the crime and how it's going to 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:37.880 affect Pike County for years to come. Angie from Carl's 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.960 Bad New Mexico wants to know how covering this story, 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:44.680 how has it affected you personally or professionally. I would 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:47.199 say I think it makes me think about trust, certainly 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.520 about who you have in your life and the relationships 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.760 you have, because whether it's Jake and Hannah Rodin's relationship 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.200 or it's now Jake Wagner and the rest of his family, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:09:59.640 I think it is a little bit be careful who 0:09:59.640 --> 0:10:02.559 you trust. Yeah, this is one of those real cases 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.760 of the boogeyman is not out there, it's in your circle. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.120 And not only in your circle. These were people that 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.360 were really close friends. The Wagoners and the Rodents. We 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:16.480 know we're extremely tight, way more than was earlier reported. 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:19.440 So I think for all of us, that's been the 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.800 nauseating element here. That's been the part that you can't 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:24.760 kind of shake where you think you'd have a sixth 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.560 sense about it, or you would meet somebody and you 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.120 would know they're they're bad news, they're going to bring 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.040 very bad things to our family. Yet that wasn't the 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.440 case at all. They were at the same wedding, hugging 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:40.120 and chummy and you know, really shared beautiful times together. 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.760 So at what point does that tip over? I think 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.319 has been a real fascination of ours. And then I'd 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:50.720 oppose the same thing to you, Joseph. Let me just 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:54.559 say in twenty sixteen, I've been you know, kind of 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:58.680 neck deep and covering crime for a while now on 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.560 a lot of that works and whatnot, really big cases, 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.640 and there there were a lot of big cases in 0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:09.040 twenty sixteen, But I have to confess. When the road 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:14.400 in case hit, I was actually covering it with HLN 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.080 and Nancy Grace and we've gone on to you know, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.400 to talk about it. Nancy and I have extensively on 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.520 air and particularly at that time. And one of the 0:11:23.600 --> 0:11:25.839 things that struck me about it being a guy that 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.560 comes from these rural routes like I do, you know, 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:31.760 kind of the country mouse comes a big city kind 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.680 of thing. I've never seen or heard of anything like 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.560 that in my entire life. I was just amazed. And 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.959 then when you go out to those locations, you get 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:43.720 out and you look at this property and I don't 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:48.800 know the word, I'd say emptiness, but there's a vacancy 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.559 to it. And you know that you get out there 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.720 and you see what may have been there and it's 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:59.920 no longer there Isn't that really really something that kind 0:11:59.880 --> 0:12:02.559 of resonates with you, you know how how it leaves 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.120 this this huge scar throughout that community. You know, this 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:10.360 this vacancy, but yet it's it's haunted. It's haunted and 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.360 a you know, not I'm not saying that in a 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:15.000 sense of, you know, some kind of ghost tale or something. 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.959 I'm saying it's a haunted place. In this sense, this 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.200 is a kind of event that years from now, kids 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.000 are going to be sitting around campfires, you know, fifty 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:27.520 years from now, and they're going to be saying, hey, 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:29.960 you want to hear a ghost story. You want to 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:32.880 hear about the worst thing that ever happened. And so 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.000 right now it's a very urgent thing. We'll waiting on 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.720 trials and all this will thing, but then it leaps 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.880 over and into into the mythology of a place, and 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:43.600 that's going to happen. That will happen, and this will 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:51.199 be something that will be rememberable. We're going to take 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.480 a quick break here, we'll be back in a moment. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.480 And has covering this case had an impact on any 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.760 way you report now or has it affected you personally 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.719 or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. I think, 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.360 you know, some stories change the way you report or 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.920 make you look at things differently. You know. I kind 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.600 of approached this like I approached any story. I just 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.400 wanted to know the truth and figure out what happened 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.600 and try to help you know, if we could bring 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.960 some light to what happened. So, I mean it was 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.560 very sad to me. I mean I it was just 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.120 it's just awful when you would watch the family and 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.880 go individuals and stuff like that, and you would see 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.120 what they were going through. And there were sometimes where 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.240 I felt like the family wasn't treated very well by 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.439 some media. You know. I feel like I tried to 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.760 always treat them, the family, the Roden family, with kindness, 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.760 as I do everybody on a story with unless they're 0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.240 you know, like a politician and then you chase them 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.719 down straight or whatever. But I just feel like it 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.560 maybe gave me a greater appreciation for the loss that 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.280 people really suffer, just because of the children involved in this, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.520 of course, but just you know, just the senseless. This 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.240 is like truly you hear people say, well it was senseless, Well, 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.280 and all killings are pretty much senseless, but this was 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.360 really really on another level, and so I think the 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.440 humanity just talking to Leonard Manly and seeing the pain 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.680 that it brought him and his family, and seeing Geneva 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:35.200 Rodin and you could just see the pain on her 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:38.080 face when she would come to court, just dutifully coming 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:40.240 to court. You know, there's no elevator out there at 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:43.120 the Pike County Courthouse, so she has to like walk 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.720 up those stairs each time with her cane and she 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.840 has a bad foot, and in telling this story, just 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:51.360 really so try to focus the best you can on 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.440 the loss, or at least bring that through in the storytelling. 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.000 I feel like I learned something from every story I cover, 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.840 and it probably changes me in some ways, you know, 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:07.800 you learn and e Bold, I know a couple of 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:11.080 you are parents, and it sounds so cliche, but it's 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:12.720 so true, Like even you know, when I have my 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:16.600 mind in this case particularly, it really makes you grateful 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.360 for what you have, knowing what can be lost like that. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.080 Oh yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.840 on that. And I feel for those kids. Obviously I 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.240 don't know any of these children, but just the thought 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:31.280 of children growing up not knowing their parents now because 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.280 of this that's going to happen. I try to keep 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.640 my emotions separate, but it's hard. You know, sometimes you 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:39.400 come home and you look at your own children and 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.720 you just think, God, what would happen if my child 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:45.280 was left because of that? And you try to really 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:48.680 put yourself in that place, and it's just I can't 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.520 even imagine. I just hope this kids are going to 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.520 grow up and be Okay. You know, we get up 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.800 in the morning every day and think about people who 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.200 we've never met, and think about families who we never 0:16:01.240 --> 0:16:03.920 will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.360 of doing. And I can speak for all of us 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:09.000 to say, if you speak to a person, whether it's 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.240 on a phone or on a zoom or eye to 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.280 eye in the same room, and their entire family has 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:17.520 been slaughtered, and they can sit before us and tell 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:20.400 their tale and have the wherewithal and the composure to 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:22.920 be able to push on in their world. Certainly we 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.040 can tell their stories, and we also can push on 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.520 in our worlds. And I think that's very inspiring in 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.160 a way. We've been wildly inspired by this case in 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.640 ways I can quite describe. The Rodent family has become 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:41.200 a piece of our DNA. Do we know for sure 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.360 George's trial will be next and do we know what 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.360 the order is? Yet? All we know is that George's 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.040 trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:53.880 schedule Mom and Dad earlier than that. They could still 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.120 do that. They very well could still do that, But 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.040 as of right now, the only one we know of 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.680 is next spring. We're going to have a trial unless 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.719 there's a plea deal. These prosecutors have been dealing with 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.160 this case for years, so I assume they've got some 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:15.040 type of game plan, or they think they know who 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.679 could go next, or who they want to potentially offer 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.879 something too next. I mean, I'm sure they have a plan. 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.240 I don't know that they have a plan. I'm just 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.359 kind of surmising, you know, I'm sure they've thought about 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.639 this over the years. I think it's so compelling to 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:35.320 better understand how one trial will influence the other. It 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.200 is unusual to have four now trials of family members 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.919 back to back, so imagine one trial, of course, impacts 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:47.399 the other, and the bombs that come along with that. 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:52.000 Particularly Jake Wadner facing off for the first time as 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.840 now stipulated in his plea agreement, that he will testify 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.760 against his own mother, his own brother, his own father, 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:03.040 is mind blowing. There's no way this can play out 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:05.879 in any universe that is not shocking. If they are 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.720 turning on each other, that is a piece of the 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.680 equation that we really never thought would happen until Jake 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.800 appeared at that hearing. How do you throw your son 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.000 under the bus, and how does your son throw his 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:22.359 own mother under the legal bus. That is a legal mess, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.000 and I'm so curious to see how it plays out. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.920 Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:47.960 in a moment. Colleen from Aspen, Colorado asked, what do 0:18:47.960 --> 0:18:49.919 you think is going to be the end result of 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:51.880 the case when all is said and done. Are there 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.880 going to be any more surprises? I would predict at 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:57.280 this point they're all found guilty, and I think there's 0:18:57.320 --> 0:18:58.879 probably no plea deal, and we're going to see these 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.399 trials happen one or the other, starting with George. I 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:05.600 think it'll be starting with Angela. Wagner and George will follow, 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.840 and Angela's trial will set the stage for the remaining two. 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.879 If Jake is lying, is that a possibility to anybody 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.960 that Jake is lying? I don't know. I mean, if 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.159 what they said is true over that ten to eighteen 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:24.639 hour confession, if that's indeed you know the story and 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.160 he said it was all true and he led them 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.119 to murder weapons and the vehicle used. That's some pretty 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.720 compelling evidence. So you know, there may be another domino 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.360 or two to fall, and maybe there will be somebody 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.720 that ficks it out. And says no, I'm going to 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.720 roll the dice and go to trial. I've said it before. 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:47.040 They're either, you know, with Jake's deal, that's pen leaves 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.720 off the table. So you either plead guilty and get 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.280 life in prison, or you roll the dice and get 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.520 convicted and get life in prison, or you roll the 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.520 dice and get a hung jury. So but kind of 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.959 how I look at it, James, will there be any 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:06.159 more surprises? Well, I think it depends on your definition 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.600 of surprise. Jake pleading guilty a few months ago that 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.679 was a surprise. At this point with that on the table, 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:19.840 I don't think anything would be surprising. I don't necessarily 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:24.800 think someone deciding to stick it out to say yeah, 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.680 I'm going to go to trial would be surprising, or 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:32.080 pleading out would be surprising. I think it's going to 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:39.040 depend on how hard and which we link the prosecutors 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:41.719 decide to push on where they see the weak links, 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:44.239 if they see a weak link, I mean, they're all 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.160 being kept in separate prisons, and they're all being kept 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:51.640 with separate counsel. Now those counsel can talk to each other, 0:20:52.400 --> 0:20:56.840 but the wagoners can, So I don't know at this point, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.320 nothing surprised would surprise me in this case anymore apart 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.800 from they went to trial and got a not guilty verdict, 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:19.119 that would be a shocker. A really really sincere thanks 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:25.159 for your time, information, passion, all of it really on 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.520 behalf of Katie Studios. Just thank you to the listeners. 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:32.680 You know, we hit number one in all categories because 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.719 people kept tuning in and as we talked about, led 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.119 us in the right direction in terms of other things 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:48.000 to be discussing and unpacking. So thank you. As we 0:21:48.040 --> 0:21:50.280 bring season two to a close, one piece of the 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.480 puzzle has been solved. Jake Wagner changed just pleaded guilty 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:55.960 and said he was responsible for five of the eight 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.800 Rodent family member deaths. What plead you wished to hit 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:07.359 her at Gel seven to Jake Wagner faces life behind 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:09.840 bars and has disclosed details of the plot to kill 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.760 the Roden family to authorities. He told us let us 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.320 to discover some evidence that had yet to be recovered, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.760 specifically the weapons that were used in these offenses. He's 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.120 also implicated his family and the gruesome murders Billy Wagner, 0:22:22.200 --> 0:22:25.880 Angela Wagner, and George Wagner. The fourth all still face charges, 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.920 including aggravated murder. Jake Wagner has actually agreed to testify 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:35.800 against his mother, his father, and his older brother, while Angela, Billy, 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:39.600 and George Wagner continue to maintain their innocence. Questions remain. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:43.159 Angela Wagner was a suspected mastermind of the conspiracy to 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:46.240 kill eight members of the Roden and Gillie family. Prosecutors 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.480 say the Wagners lived an insular life focused on control 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:52.320 of children and the young women who entered their lives. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.600 But with judgment day for accused brother George Wagner, the 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.320 fourth just around the corner. George Wagner's trial date has 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.679 been said for twenty two. What will happen in the 0:23:02.680 --> 0:23:08.400