1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: This is the Pike to Massacre. Returned to Pike County 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Season two finale, What's Next. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television 3 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. 4 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: For the finale of season two, we wanted to devote 5 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: some time to answering listener questions this season. You've really 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: helped lead us down some interesting and unexpected roads. We 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,159 Speaker 1: culled through a bunch of submissions and picked out a 8 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: few questions that we felt needed to be discussed. We 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: also invited a group of our regular contributors to join 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: reporters James Pilcher and Angeanette Levy, as well as forensics 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: expert Joseph Morgan. Welcome to the finale. It's been quite 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: a surprising season. It's been a shocking season, I think yeah. 13 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: I mean we started with a crazy turn of events, 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: and now as we're learning more about the accused and 15 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: the victims themselves, there's never a moment where I'm not 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: prized by this case and what happened. And I think 17 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: as we learn more and as these trials start to happen, 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: I think that's only going to continue. That is The 19 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: thing that I think I loved most about this season 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: is some of the unexpected turns that we took. Really 21 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: this show sort of unfolded real time, obviously starting with 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: the initial plea with Jake Wagner, but then also we've 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: done a couple of stories that were guided by listeners 24 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: that we dug into to really look at the area. 25 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: We really spend a lot of time this week digging 26 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: into questions that we've been following along the way over 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: the course of both seasons. The three top things we 28 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: got were what are the details of what happened in Alaska? 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: Where is Jake's wife Elizabeth? And who is the informant? 30 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: And those questions drive each of us every day, and 31 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: we do not know the answers, and we and journalists 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: and experts have been digging, and the answers thus far 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: have been impossible to come by, but that will not 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: remain the case forever. We had a conversation today with 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: two people that hopefully we can report back on that 36 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 1: is mind blowing. And you know, that's a little bit 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: of a piece of the puzzle. Right as we produce 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: this podcast, as we produce anything, there are certain conversations 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: that happened on the record. There are certain that happened 40 00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: off the record. Obviously, legally speaking, we have to have 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: perfect releases in order for us to air certain pieces 42 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: of information, you know, gossip, conjecture, things that are a 43 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: matter of non fact are not usable and because of 44 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: the gag order at this exact second, it's maddening because 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: we get to speak to certain people and we're not 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: able to share that information. Mike from Asheville, North Carolina wrote, 47 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 1: why did you guys do all these breakoff episodes like 48 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: the Michael Moran's story and the Curtis Francis story. Listeners 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: wrote into us and gave us a heads up to 50 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: be looking into these stories deeper, which was fascinating because truthfully, 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that we would have gone down that 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: path had listeners not reached out and alerted us to 53 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 1: other stories that were happening in the area, which really 54 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: does speak to the totality of crime in a really 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: specific pocket of the country. They definitely spoke to this 56 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: theme of injustice in the community, and I mean, these 57 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: were happening in the rodent's backyard, and so to not 58 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: mention them would feel like we were not telling the 59 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: complete story of this community. And like the Rodent case, 60 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: the Curtis Francis case is so complicated and so tragic, 61 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: and the benefit of having a season two is really 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: being able to explore some of these stories more. In 63 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: the same way we were able to expand on the 64 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: Rodent's story at the Gilly story, we were able to 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: do that with Curtis Francis, which is an honor to 66 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: be able to do that. And so my question to you, James, 67 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: so you report extensively on Michael Moran, why was that 68 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: story important to you and how, if it all, does 69 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: it relate back to the Rodent case? As I said 70 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: in the episode, and I still feel this that I 71 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: feel I owe the women the truth that you know, 72 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: there's was a part of me looking at it from 73 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: my male, white, privileged perspective that this stuff didn't really happen. 74 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: You know, I had no idea, so I almost didn't 75 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: believe it at first, and so when I found out 76 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: it was true, it became like almost a mission of 77 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: mine to say, you know what, more people need to 78 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: know about this kind of thing. So that's for the 79 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: Moran story specifically and sex trafficking. I've done subsequent stories 80 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: about sex trafficking in the numbers state by state. So yeah, 81 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: that's been a major focus of mine since I started 82 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: reporting this story. As a legal disclaimer, we should note 83 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: that Michael Moran has been arrested on charges including human 84 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: trafficking and promoting prostitution. He has pleaded not guilty to 85 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: all charges and denied any ties to sex trafficking. He's 86 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: currently awaiting trial. How it relates back, you know, I 87 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: wouldn't say that, you know, there's not a direct correlation 88 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: between the Wagner's and Michael Moran, or the Rodents and 89 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: Michael Moran. I think it just gets to the aspect 90 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: of rural America that most people don't see, and that 91 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: law enforcement in that part of the country and these 92 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: parts of the country just isn't equipped to handle these multifaceted, 93 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: in depth, complicated investigations. And you guys covered it when 94 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: you covered the Hopper Road episode. I completely admire what 95 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: Jodie Barr did with the Hopper Road story and how 96 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: even if they don't get a conviction, at least people 97 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: have an understanding of what might have happened. Start out 98 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: to Jodie Barr for what he did in that story, 99 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: because he really did. He changed people's lives, you know exactly. 100 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: You know, I saw something today. I won't name the publication, 101 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: but there's a story out there saying that true crime 102 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: is booming and whatever. But it is nothing more than 103 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: a love letter to law enforcement. And I want to 104 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: write the author and said, have you listened to any 105 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: of this? Have you listened to some of the stuff 106 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 1: that you guys have done and some other my colleagues 107 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: have done. No, this is about unsolved. Why isn't this 108 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: mystery solved? So I completely You know, there are people 109 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: who think, oh, true crime is nothing more than making 110 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: the cops look good. Well, no, I completely disagree with that. 111 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: It's as much about holding the cops accountable as it 112 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: is about telling the stories of the victims. And by 113 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: the way things go away in the night, if nobody's 114 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,559 Speaker 1: talking about something, it just gets swept under the rug. 115 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: And likely when you take a closer look, which we 116 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: get the benefit of doing in a podcast of again 117 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the totality of the abuse of power, or a real 118 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: look at how things are being covered and are they 119 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: being covered enough? And are these cases being highlighted enough? 120 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: You know, oftentimes listen investigators are investigating as much as 121 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: they can and as fast as they can. We get 122 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: the benefit of being a little bit courtside and taking 123 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: even a closer look with the benefit of tons of time. 124 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: And the hope really always is so hopefully move the 125 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: needle to either move a case forward and or to 126 00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: make sure it doesn't happen again. Zach from Wilmington, Delaware 127 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: asked have there been efforts to reach back out to 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: the Wagner family members whatever happened to Deray the Wagner 129 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: relative from season one. We've spoken to Deray numerous times 130 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: since the hearing. She was one of our first phone calls, 131 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 1: and it is obviously very raw for her. I mean, 132 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: she spent, as listeners know, a lot of time proclaiming 133 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: her family's innocence, and Deray I think is heartbroken and 134 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: that is the only way to put it. And she 135 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: declined to participate this season because I think she is 136 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: not sure how to feel and how even if she 137 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: was sure how to feel, how to even explain that 138 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: to the masses. Could you imagine anything more horrifying? Of course, 139 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: we defend our families, and my understanding was I'm not 140 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: sure if Deray had directly spoken to Jake, but I 141 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: know that Jake was giving the impression to at least 142 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: his grandmother that he was innocent, and so they were 143 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: shocked that all of a sudden, he's in the courtroom 144 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: saying the opposite of that. So you know what I 145 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: spoke to Deray the day of the hearing. She was confused. 146 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: She thought, did someone put him up to this? Is 147 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: he not in the right frame of mind. She wasn't 148 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: sure what was going on because this was not the 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: person that she had known for his entire life. So 150 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: my question, a Jeanette, is what has your experience been 151 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: reaching out to the Wagner family members if you have, well, 152 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: I've only really reached out to the lawyer's Billy Wagner's 153 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: lawyer got back to me very politely and just you know, 154 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: said that anytime there's a crime with multiple defendants, you 155 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: know that one of them may or may not, So 156 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: you don't see that there's always that chance and they're 157 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: going to look at the case that type of thing. 158 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: I didn't really reach out to Frederica or anything like that. 159 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: Anytime I've done that, it's not been fruitful. So I 160 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 1: just didn't see any points I've reached out in the past, 161 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: and she doesn't say anything. Frederica Wagner had been very 162 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: vocal and speaking to the press, and as of today, 163 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: she has not said one thing publicly about her family. 164 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: Jake has played out, So I'm curious what's going on 165 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: with her personally and also what the implications will be 166 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: in the upcoming trials. Same with Rita Joe Nukam, Angela's mother. 167 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: I'm personally fascinated by the grandmothers. Frederica seems to be 168 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: a complicated person. I mean, Frederica, as we know, is 169 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: a staple in the community in terms of her presence 170 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: with real estate and businesses. I just think about the 171 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: ripple effects of the crime and how it's going to 172 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: affect Pike County for years to come. Angie from Carl's 173 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: Bad New Mexico wants to know how covering this story, 174 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: how has it affected you personally or professionally. I would 175 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: say I think it makes me think about trust, certainly 176 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: about who you have in your life and the relationships 177 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: you have, because whether it's Jake and Hannah Rodin's relationship 178 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: or it's now Jake Wagner and the rest of his family, 179 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: I think it is a little bit be careful who 180 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 1: you trust. Yeah, this is one of those real cases 181 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: of the boogeyman is not out there, it's in your circle. 182 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: And not only in your circle. These were people that 183 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: were really close friends. The Wagoners and the Rodents. We 184 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: know we're extremely tight, way more than was earlier reported. 185 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: So I think for all of us, that's been the 186 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: nauseating element here. That's been the part that you can't 187 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: kind of shake where you think you'd have a sixth 188 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: sense about it, or you would meet somebody and you 189 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: would know they're they're bad news, they're going to bring 190 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: very bad things to our family. Yet that wasn't the 191 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: case at all. They were at the same wedding, hugging 192 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: and chummy and you know, really shared beautiful times together. 193 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: So at what point does that tip over? I think 194 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:47,319 Speaker 1: has been a real fascination of ours. And then I'd 195 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: oppose the same thing to you, Joseph. Let me just 196 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 1: say in twenty sixteen, I've been you know, kind of 197 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: neck deep and covering crime for a while now on 198 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: a lot of that works and whatnot, really big cases, 199 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: and there there were a lot of big cases in 200 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, But I have to confess. When the road 201 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: in case hit, I was actually covering it with HLN 202 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: and Nancy Grace and we've gone on to you know, 203 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: to talk about it. Nancy and I have extensively on 204 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: air and particularly at that time. And one of the 205 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 1: things that struck me about it being a guy that 206 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: comes from these rural routes like I do, you know, 207 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: kind of the country mouse comes a big city kind 208 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: of thing. I've never seen or heard of anything like 209 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: that in my entire life. I was just amazed. And 210 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: then when you go out to those locations, you get 211 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 1: out and you look at this property and I don't 212 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: know the word, I'd say emptiness, but there's a vacancy 213 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 1: to it. And you know that you get out there 214 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: and you see what may have been there and it's 215 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: no longer there Isn't that really really something that kind 216 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: of resonates with you, you know how how it leaves 217 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: this this huge scar throughout that community. You know, this 218 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: this vacancy, but yet it's it's haunted. It's haunted and 219 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: a you know, not I'm not saying that in a 220 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: sense of, you know, some kind of ghost tale or something. 221 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 1: I'm saying it's a haunted place. In this sense, this 222 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: is a kind of event that years from now, kids 223 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: are going to be sitting around campfires, you know, fifty 224 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: years from now, and they're going to be saying, hey, 225 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: you want to hear a ghost story. You want to 226 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: hear about the worst thing that ever happened. And so 227 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: right now it's a very urgent thing. We'll waiting on 228 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: trials and all this will thing, but then it leaps 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: over and into into the mythology of a place, and 230 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: that's going to happen. That will happen, and this will 231 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: be something that will be rememberable. We're going to take 232 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: a quick break here, we'll be back in a moment. 233 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: And has covering this case had an impact on any 234 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: way you report now or has it affected you personally 235 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 1: or professionally. I think that's hard to answer. I think, 236 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: you know, some stories change the way you report or 237 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: make you look at things differently. You know. I kind 238 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: of approached this like I approached any story. I just 239 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: wanted to know the truth and figure out what happened 240 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: and try to help you know, if we could bring 241 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: some light to what happened. So, I mean it was 242 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: very sad to me. I mean I it was just 243 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: it's just awful when you would watch the family and 244 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: go individuals and stuff like that, and you would see 245 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: what they were going through. And there were sometimes where 246 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: I felt like the family wasn't treated very well by 247 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: some media. You know. I feel like I tried to 248 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: always treat them, the family, the Roden family, with kindness, 249 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: as I do everybody on a story with unless they're 250 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 1: you know, like a politician and then you chase them 251 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: down straight or whatever. But I just feel like it 252 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: maybe gave me a greater appreciation for the loss that 253 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: people really suffer, just because of the children involved in this, 254 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: of course, but just you know, just the senseless. This 255 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: is like truly you hear people say, well it was senseless, Well, 256 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: and all killings are pretty much senseless, but this was 257 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: really really on another level, and so I think the 258 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 1: humanity just talking to Leonard Manly and seeing the pain 259 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: that it brought him and his family, and seeing Geneva 260 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: Rodin and you could just see the pain on her 261 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: face when she would come to court, just dutifully coming 262 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 1: to court. You know, there's no elevator out there at 263 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: the Pike County Courthouse, so she has to like walk 264 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: up those stairs each time with her cane and she 265 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: has a bad foot, and in telling this story, just 266 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: really so try to focus the best you can on 267 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: the loss, or at least bring that through in the storytelling. 268 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: I feel like I learned something from every story I cover, 269 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: and it probably changes me in some ways, you know, 270 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: you learn and e Bold, I know a couple of 271 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: you are parents, and it sounds so cliche, but it's 272 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: so true, Like even you know, when I have my 273 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: mind in this case particularly, it really makes you grateful 274 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: for what you have, knowing what can be lost like that. 275 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I would agree with you one hundred percent 276 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: on that. And I feel for those kids. Obviously I 277 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: don't know any of these children, but just the thought 278 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: of children growing up not knowing their parents now because 279 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: of this that's going to happen. I try to keep 280 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: my emotions separate, but it's hard. You know, sometimes you 281 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: come home and you look at your own children and 282 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: you just think, God, what would happen if my child 283 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: was left because of that? And you try to really 284 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: put yourself in that place, and it's just I can't 285 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: even imagine. I just hope this kids are going to 286 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: grow up and be Okay. You know, we get up 287 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: in the morning every day and think about people who 288 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: we've never met, and think about families who we never 289 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: will outside of the interviews that we have the benefit 290 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: of doing. And I can speak for all of us 291 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: to say, if you speak to a person, whether it's 292 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: on a phone or on a zoom or eye to 293 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: eye in the same room, and their entire family has 294 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: been slaughtered, and they can sit before us and tell 295 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: their tale and have the wherewithal and the composure to 296 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: be able to push on in their world. Certainly we 297 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: can tell their stories, and we also can push on 298 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: in our worlds. And I think that's very inspiring in 299 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: a way. We've been wildly inspired by this case in 300 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: ways I can quite describe. The Rodent family has become 301 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: a piece of our DNA. Do we know for sure 302 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: George's trial will be next and do we know what 303 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: the order is? Yet? All we know is that George's 304 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: trial is the only one who's been scheduled. They might 305 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: schedule Mom and Dad earlier than that. They could still 306 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: do that. They very well could still do that, But 307 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: as of right now, the only one we know of 308 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: is next spring. We're going to have a trial unless 309 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,719 Speaker 1: there's a plea deal. These prosecutors have been dealing with 310 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,160 Speaker 1: this case for years, so I assume they've got some 311 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: type of game plan, or they think they know who 312 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: could go next, or who they want to potentially offer 313 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: something too next. I mean, I'm sure they have a plan. 314 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: I don't know that they have a plan. I'm just 315 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: kind of surmising, you know, I'm sure they've thought about 316 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: this over the years. I think it's so compelling to 317 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: better understand how one trial will influence the other. It 318 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 1: is unusual to have four now trials of family members 319 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: back to back, so imagine one trial, of course, impacts 320 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: the other, and the bombs that come along with that. 321 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: Particularly Jake Wadner facing off for the first time as 322 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: now stipulated in his plea agreement, that he will testify 323 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: against his own mother, his own brother, his own father, 324 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: is mind blowing. There's no way this can play out 325 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: in any universe that is not shocking. If they are 326 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: turning on each other, that is a piece of the 327 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: equation that we really never thought would happen until Jake 328 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: appeared at that hearing. How do you throw your son 329 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: under the bus, and how does your son throw his 330 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: own mother under the legal bus. That is a legal mess, 331 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: and I'm so curious to see how it plays out. 332 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 333 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: in a moment. Colleen from Aspen, Colorado asked, what do 334 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: you think is going to be the end result of 335 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: the case when all is said and done. Are there 336 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,880 Speaker 1: going to be any more surprises? I would predict at 337 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: this point they're all found guilty, and I think there's 338 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: probably no plea deal, and we're going to see these 339 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: trials happen one or the other, starting with George. I 340 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: think it'll be starting with Angela. Wagner and George will follow, 341 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: and Angela's trial will set the stage for the remaining two. 342 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: If Jake is lying, is that a possibility to anybody 343 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: that Jake is lying? I don't know. I mean, if 344 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: what they said is true over that ten to eighteen 345 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 1: hour confession, if that's indeed you know the story and 346 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: he said it was all true and he led them 347 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: to murder weapons and the vehicle used. That's some pretty 348 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: compelling evidence. So you know, there may be another domino 349 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: or two to fall, and maybe there will be somebody 350 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: that ficks it out. And says no, I'm going to 351 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: roll the dice and go to trial. I've said it before. 352 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: They're either, you know, with Jake's deal, that's pen leaves 353 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: off the table. So you either plead guilty and get 354 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: life in prison, or you roll the dice and get 355 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: convicted and get life in prison, or you roll the 356 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: dice and get a hung jury. So but kind of 357 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,959 Speaker 1: how I look at it, James, will there be any 358 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: more surprises? Well, I think it depends on your definition 359 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: of surprise. Jake pleading guilty a few months ago that 360 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 1: was a surprise. At this point with that on the table, 361 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: I don't think anything would be surprising. I don't necessarily 362 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: think someone deciding to stick it out to say yeah, 363 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to go to trial would be surprising, or 364 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 1: pleading out would be surprising. I think it's going to 365 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: depend on how hard and which we link the prosecutors 366 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: decide to push on where they see the weak links, 367 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,239 Speaker 1: if they see a weak link, I mean, they're all 368 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: being kept in separate prisons, and they're all being kept 369 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: with separate counsel. Now those counsel can talk to each other, 370 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: but the wagoners can, So I don't know at this point, 371 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: nothing surprised would surprise me in this case anymore apart 372 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: from they went to trial and got a not guilty verdict, 373 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: that would be a shocker. A really really sincere thanks 374 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 1: for your time, information, passion, all of it really on 375 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: behalf of Katie Studios. Just thank you to the listeners. 376 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: You know, we hit number one in all categories because 377 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 1: people kept tuning in and as we talked about, led 378 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: us in the right direction in terms of other things 379 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: to be discussing and unpacking. So thank you. As we 380 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: bring season two to a close, one piece of the 381 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: puzzle has been solved. Jake Wagner changed just pleaded guilty 382 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: and said he was responsible for five of the eight 383 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: Rodent family member deaths. What plead you wished to hit 384 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: her at Gel seven to Jake Wagner faces life behind 385 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: bars and has disclosed details of the plot to kill 386 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: the Roden family to authorities. He told us let us 387 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: to discover some evidence that had yet to be recovered, 388 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: specifically the weapons that were used in these offenses. He's 389 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: also implicated his family and the gruesome murders Billy Wagner, 390 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,880 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner, and George Wagner. The fourth all still face charges, 391 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: including aggravated murder. Jake Wagner has actually agreed to testify 392 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: against his mother, his father, and his older brother, while Angela, Billy, 393 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: and George Wagner continue to maintain their innocence. Questions remain. 394 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: Angela Wagner was a suspected mastermind of the conspiracy to 395 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: kill eight members of the Roden and Gillie family. Prosecutors 396 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: say the Wagners lived an insular life focused on control 397 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: of children and the young women who entered their lives. 398 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: But with judgment day for accused brother George Wagner, the 399 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: fourth just around the corner. George Wagner's trial date has 400 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: been said for twenty two. What will happen in the 401 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: meantime is anyone's guests. Will there be another plea deal? 402 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: It'll be interesting to see where this case goes from here. 403 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: Now they have someone who is cooperating, they have someone 404 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: who can give them specific evidence. What exactly is Jake 405 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:19,680 Speaker 1: going to say in the stand. It's going to be 406 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: interesting to watch what happens with a few Could grandmother 407 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: Rita Nucam make an appearance on the witness stand. Nucom 408 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: is a notary and prosecutors say she forged guardianship documents 409 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: three weeks before the Rodents were murdered. The fine details 410 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: of this plea agreement are under sealed with the court, 411 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,959 Speaker 1: so it's still a question about whether or not Newcome 412 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: will be required to testify at the trials, or will 413 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: grandmother Fredericco Wagner end up back in court. The seventy 414 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 1: seven year old Wagner faced two felony charges, obstructing justice 415 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 1: and perjury. I've never lied about anything. I was innocent. 416 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: They had no evidence against me. She can be charged 417 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: again in this case later, perhaps most importantly, will the 418 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: victims families finally see closure in the case. Our family 419 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: will never stop trying to bring whoever did this to justice. 420 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,679 Speaker 1: One thing is for sure. There's much more on the 421 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 1: horizon in this case just keeps on coming. I still 422 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: wonder if there was much more to this that we 423 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,399 Speaker 1: don't know, and what would drive someone to do what 424 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: happened here. There's still to me a whole lot of 425 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: un answered questions here. More on that next season, but 426 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: check in next week when we'll be bringing you a 427 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: special bonus episode before the break for more information on 428 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: the case and relevant photos. Follow us on Instagram at 429 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 1: Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike 430 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: County is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. 431 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 1: Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional 432 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. The 433 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: Piked in Massacre Returned to Pike County is a production 434 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 435 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 436 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.