WEBVTT - Susanna Hoffs 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.240 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:16.640 My guest today is Susannah Fus, who has a new book, 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:23.000 This Bird Has Flown and a new album, The Deep End. Susannah, 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:28.680 why a book? Why? Now? Oh? I love this question. Um. 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:32.559 I've been a lifelong reader. My favorite thing is to 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:38.280 escape from my own thoughts and being in someone else's story. 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.879 And I love I love disappearing into a into a fiction. 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.720 And you know this is true for you know, I 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.280 think why I'm addicted to listening to songs, why I 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:54.720 obsessively watch movies, um, and and why I love novels. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:56.840 And I've been reading since I was a little girl, 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:04.040 and it had always been kind of, um a dream 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.360 to one day write a novel. I started one in 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.119 nineteen eighty nine as the Bengals were winding down, but 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:14.560 then then I didn't really pursue it, you know. So 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.760 suddenly and I'd written, and I've co written several screenplays, 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:23.080 some of which have been optioned, but then they just 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:26.920 sort of found themselves on a shelf in some studio 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:32.759 in development. Hell. So, um, it was around I sort 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:34.880 of embarrassed to say how long the process of me 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:39.080 of me writing this novel has been but I'll be 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.600 honest with you, it's the idea really came to fruition 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:45.959 in twenty fifteen. I was still doing Bengals shows and 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.400 working on solo music, but it became an absolute passion. 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:56.360 In fact, it was almost like a psychotic addiction to 0:01:56.400 --> 0:02:00.360 the process of writing the novel. I became completely cessed 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.280 and immersed in it. Let's go back a chapter. You 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.160 say you're a big reader. I hate to put people 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.280 on the spot because their mind goes blank. But what 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:14.839 have you read recently that you'd enjoyed? Well? I read, um, um, Well, 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:17.960 I read Daisy in the Six Okay, I thought so, 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.880 and I've um, oh, gosh, you put me on the spot. Here. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.959 What there's all these books in my I should look 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:27.080 at my phone. What's in my my phone? Here? Bear 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:31.560 with me, because there's um I'm reading the love Songs 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:36.320 of W. E. B. Du Bois. Um. I just recently 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:43.240 read Truman Capote's novella Breakfast at Tiffany. It's extraordinary and 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.000 I want to revisit in cold Blood. Um I just 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:54.120 read I revisited Brideshead, revisited um oh, this is it. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:59.560 I went on a deep dive of books that were 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:05.080 turned into motion pictures that I loved so and I 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:08.040 went in any even further in a kind of rabbit 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:13.040 hole of books about teachers inspiring students, if that makes sense. 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.920 So I recently reread or recently read for the first time, 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:22.400 To Serve with Love by e Our Braithwait, and it's 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:26.040 really great the novel because a movie only can show 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:27.720 so much, you only have an hour and a half 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.880 to tell the story. I revisited Muriel Sparks, Amazing, The 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.680 Prime of Miss Jane Brody. Oh, George Saunders, Lincoln in 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:40.400 the Bardo. I'm glad I have my books in my phone, 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.080 So there's those. Yeah. Oh, and I recently reread About 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.920 a Boy by Nick hornby Nick hornby the great novelist 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.360 and also lover of music, and had the great fortune 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.840 to meet Nick a few about a month ago, and 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:00.960 um and get a lot of play lists from him. 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:05.120 He's he, like me, has an addiction to music. And 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.440 I always say music is the beginning, middle, and end 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.880 of every day, and I think that's true for Nick 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.480 Hornby anyway, I have like ten great playlists from him. Okay, 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.640 one step at a time. You looked at your phone 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:21.920 for the books you read or reading. Do you read 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:24.880 digitally or do you read on paper? Well, I have 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:28.480 to say, at age sixty four, my eyesight isn't what 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:33.640 it was in my teens, nor my two empties. So um, yes, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.560 I have taken to reading on you know, e reader 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:44.120 and I have a kindle, and then I'm obsessive about audiobooks. 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.680 I love to be read too. What can I say? 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:54.279 Who doesn't? Okay? And a lot of people are readers 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:59.839 who are sort of you know, inner focused and don't interact, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.840 have some social anxiety, etc. What's your personality? Well, I 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.200 love connecting. That's why my novel is is kind of 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.640 That's one of the themes of the novel. You know 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.799 where we find ourselves in this planet we call Earth, 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.360 and you know what, somehow, as humans, I just think 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:23.480 we're meant to commune with each other. I love alone 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:28.720 time again, disappearing into fictions of all forms, but I 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.599 also crave human connection. And I'm fortunate to have a 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.479 great husband who just did all this tech support for me, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.680 and two great sons, Jackson and sam Roach, and my 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:46.640 parents are still with me with us and um my 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:50.720 brothers and my sisters in arms, the other Bengals, and 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:55.880 so I feel very fortunate. But yeah, I think I think. 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.040 Though it's solitary to read a novel by yourself in 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:04.080 your room, I find connection there too. Okay, let's go 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.880 back to the book. So all of a sudden you 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.760 decided to start the book about seven eight years ago, 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.640 and you were furious. Furious is the right where be 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.920 really very active? So tell us what went down there? 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:19.800 I think that's correct. Use, I think that's a good 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:24.960 way of saying it. I was furiously engaged, furiously writing. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.800 So what was that like? So I it took me 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:33.760 a while before I sat down and started the first sentence. 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:36.600 That is quite different from what the actual first sentence 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.800 now that you read if you buy the book. But 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:43.800 I was intrigued with a couple of books that I 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:48.279 had listened to the audio book, and in both cases 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:51.320 I had read and reread these two novels. One was 0:06:51.480 --> 0:06:55.800 Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte. The other was Rebecca by 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:59.040 Daphne de Mourier, and I was intrigued with the themes. 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.440 They both have this sort of gothic setting. It's both 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:09.040 In both cases, the protagonist is a person who feels 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.040 somewhat out of their element in a kind of Gothic setting. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.720 I set my book in Oxford. The male love interest 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.720 is an Oxford professor. He's nothing like mister Rochester in 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.400 Jane Eyre because he's not twice my Jane's my character 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:31.080 Jane's age, nor is he rich or arrogant. But I 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.440 felt Rochester, if I was going to use that as inspiration, 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.720 was due for a little bit of an overhaul as 0:07:37.800 --> 0:07:41.360 a character that a character like my Jane start whatever 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:49.280 fancy being involved with. And in Rebecca, interestingly, the protagonist 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:54.200 is unnamed. Rebecca is the name of Max de Winter, 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:58.920 the man that she marries and then moves to to 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:05.480 what was it Thornfield Hall? I think it was called Yeah, no, Yes, 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.920 I might have mixed up the names of the mansions 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:14.440 that these women find themselves in, But I just like 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.600 the themes that there are ghosts that haunt these two 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:22.640 women and sort of threaten whatever it is, their sense 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:27.000 of trust in their relationships. And you know, in some 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:30.200 ways love is as much about trust as anything else. 0:08:30.840 --> 0:08:33.760 You know, you take a leap of faith when you 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.520 decide to be with someone in an intimate way, and 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.960 I just think, yeah, I think that those themes resonated 0:08:42.000 --> 0:08:44.480 for me. I'm happy to say that I've been with 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:47.680 Jay for thirty years, so obviously we trust each other. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.840 But when when I'm writing fiction, I you know, you're 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.359 a story. Isn't that interesting if there's not some conflict 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:59.280 or peril or predicament, you know? So I wanted to 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.160 that sort of theme to be one of the things 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.560 that the character is grappling with. Can she trust him? 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:14.880 Can she trust herself? Tell us more about trusting yourself? Well, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.240 I think for my character, we find her descending an elevator, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:21.840 kind of tarted up in what she thinks is the 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:26.280 expected costume. Ten years after she wore that costume to 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:31.280 perform her her song, which was she really only had 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:33.960 one hit song at a bachelor party. She's at a 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.360 very low point in her life. She's been dumped and 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:42.199 cheated on. She's years out from when she had this 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.480 hit song. She put out an album following the hit 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:53.600 song that nobody really cared about. And yeah, she's she's 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:59.160 trying to figure out her life really and whether her 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:04.200 making music matters to anyone beside herself besides herself. So 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.440 I mean, I know, I know that I had a 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:11.040 lot of really great luck and in the eighties, but 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:15.520 you know, I do relate to that feeling of growing older. 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:20.920 And I mean there used to be this idea that 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.760 pop stars there are no you can't be a pop 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.280 star in your thirties. Even I don't know if that's 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.880 still true. What do you think, Bob. That's a much 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:36.480 longer discussion because anything's possible. But by the same token, 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.920 in the Bengals heyday at MTV, everybody knew you if 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.960 you were a star. Everybody knows the Bengals hits. Today, 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:46.280 a record can be number one and nobody knows it, 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:49.600 irrelevant of the age of the person. So people can 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.120 be a little older. But it's not like it used 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.360 to be. No, I mean, think how young the Beatles 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.560 were when they started out, Like I think I remember. 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:02.480 It's something that I haven't really reflected on till recently, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.760 even even for anyone in show biz. You know, there 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.679 is a sort of period where I noticed that a 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:17.959 lot of the winners of Best Supporting Actress or Best 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.320 Actress are often like around twenty seven, twenty eight years old. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:23.559 I have not done the map. I have not I 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.880 don't have hard facts on this, but yeah, it's just 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:32.640 interesting and I think maybe I don't know, it's probably 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:37.840 true for any gender, but I think my character for 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:42.480 sure feels like at thirty three and with being down 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.559 on her luck in the music business, I feel like 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.719 she's ready to pack it in, like who's going to 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.520 want some thirty thirty something, you know, one hit? Wonder 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.280 like who's going to care? So I kind of I 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.560 was able to write that because even though, as I said, 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.480 I'm so grateful for the success that I've had, it 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.920 doesn't mean I haven't been disappointed in making music that 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:12.720 doesn't necessarily find its audience. Wow. Just going back to 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.560 something you said earlier about the Beatles. One of the 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.400 things it's dune me about the Beatles and Jackson Brown 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:22.000 being another example, they were so wise at a young age. 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.880 Now you listen to those records today and you go, 0:12:25.000 --> 0:12:28.760 how did they know all that? I know that's so true. 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.280 I mean, the Beatles were so young and Jackson Brown 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.160 was so there's so much wisdom and sort of philosophical 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.040 you know, badass road for lack of a better word, 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.240 going on in that young man's mind to be able 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:48.679 to do those early records, it's extraordinary. So you're having 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:54.800 these thoughts now of your peak and pop dam being 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.880 in the past. Is it something a feeling that's just 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:03.559 started now or did it start some time in the past. Well, 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:09.320 I look at myself when I was I can find 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:16.600 videos and whatnot of myself at age I guess thirty 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.480 one or two, when I was embarking on a solo 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.120 career and my first solo record came out on Columbia, 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:28.040 and I guess I wasn't too concerned at that age. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.319 But as the years ticked by, and I was so 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:36.199 fortunate to make three covers records with Matthew Sweet and 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.240 I and I have a little yeah sometimes I lately 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.280 I've been questioning the idea of like a covers record 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.720 versus a not a record of original songs, because I 0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.120 was thinking, like I'm digressing here, sorry, POSI is a 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:54.960 spice of life, Go forward, Okay, there we go. I 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.199 was realizing that I and you you probably could correct 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.439 me if I'm wrong, because you know so much about 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:04.480 music history. But I don't think Elvis ever wrote a 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:09.120 single song. And he's Elvis. We know him and love him, 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.400 But do we say, oh, when you pick up an 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.959 Elvis record, do you go, this is such a great 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:16.920 covers record that Elvis did do I don't think I've 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.640 ever heard anybody characterize those records as cover records, Nor 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.080 do I think that Frank Sinatra, not that he's in 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.000 the pop side of things, those were all covers too, 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.120 am I right? Yeah, so there is suddenly, and I 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.360 do feel very proud of the songs that I've written, 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:42.280 co written almost always, if not always. Yeah, I mean 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.040 that's the thing about this novel, As they said, maybe 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.320 earlier or not, it's one of the first things I've 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:54.840 ever done alone, completely alone. But yeah, I don't know. 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.480 I don't know. Back to your question, I might have drifted. No, Okay, 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.760 let's say you're out and about outside your own neighborhood 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:10.040 where you're known. Do people recognize you? No, Once in 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.160 a blue moon. Once in a blue moon. What popped 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:19.239 into my mind was that, I think, because of Instagram 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:23.480 or something, a woman was at the supermarket and with 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:27.760 her two little kids, and I think that one of 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:32.400 the kids recognized me from somehow seeing something. But yeah, no, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.400 I'm not recognized. I don't think. No. But in the 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:41.320 heyday of the Bengal success. You were recognized, right, you know, 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.920 I don't. I don't have a lot of memories of that. 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.120 I think that we kind of when not on stage, 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.560 we were kind of we mostly disappeared under the radar somehow. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.560 That was not something that happened that much. I don't 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.760 have memories. It was certainly not like what you see 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.040 in the movies with in Beatles movies, with being chased 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.920 or anything like that. It was nothing like that now. 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.640 I mean, we had wonderful fans, and we had a 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:18.520 fusive fans, but um, yeah, no, I don't. I don't 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.080 remember us being unless we were together. I don't that 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.960 that would happen. If we were in a hotel and something, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.960 some people would recognize us, but often not more often 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.280 than not. Well, is there a sense of loss from 0:16:32.320 --> 0:16:35.120 what you had and the way it was and the 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.280 way it is now? No, I mean I can really 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:45.440 safely say that was a really intense decade of having 0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:50.480 met the Peterson's in eighty one and decided that very night, 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.880 um that we would be a band. I've always described 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.640 it as we may as well run off that that 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.000 that next day or that evening to Vegas and gotten 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.160 married in an Elvis chapel because it was that fast 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:08.800 and that kind of impulsive. That's the best word I 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.600 have for it. You know. Obviously, Vicky and Debbie had 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.800 grown up together and they already had been playing in bands. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.760 My only band experience was in a duo with David Roeback, 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.119 who went on to form Mazzy Star, and that was 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.720 our sound. Our sound was what you know, what he 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:28.720 ended up doing with Hope sandoval In, but that was 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.000 sort of the vibe of it. And Vicky and Debbie 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:34.960 were seasoned, you know, high school band kind of thing, 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:37.720 so they taught me a thing or two. And I 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.320 can still remember. I was living in the garage, the 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:45.600 converted garage of my parents' house, and they had brought 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.119 microphones and I went up to this foreign thing and 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.560 I went like, I blew on the microphone. They just 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:56.560 started laughing, like she's so green, she knows nothing, because 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:00.200 I mean, I really didn't know anything about performing live 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.200 because everything David Rebeck and I did was just make 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.440 recordings in the apartment where we were living in. So 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.920 I was very unseasoned when it came to performing. So 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.680 I soon found out what it was like to Carter 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.080 gear around and hope that anybody showed up at these 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.840 kind of out of the way gigs that we had 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:25.000 initially in La Okay, if we go back to that heyday, 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:31.280 you didn't write every song, hit song and the Bengals 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.200 and the but the Bengals only had most of the 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:40.800 albums relatively successful. So my question is, how's your royalty situation? 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:48.879 That's so interesting? Um, I don't really think about it 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.120 that much. I assume somebody will tell me. I mean, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:56.800 we get a lot of licensing requests, which always makes 0:18:56.840 --> 0:19:01.080 me happy, not because of the money part, um, really 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:06.399 mostly because they're they're those songs are staying alive, so 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.959 to speak, in when they're placed in movies, and I 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.560 love I love when someone wants to use um one 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:18.440 of our songs in a movie. So um, that's it's 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:22.000 more like the idea that the music is still relevant. 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.040 I mean, it is to me, but it always makes 0:19:26.040 --> 0:19:29.879 me smile that, you know, people still want to listen 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:34.520 to the songs um and or have them as part 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.359 of another work of art, you know, within a movie 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.480 or a television show. So I'm feeling pretty good about it. 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.679 Could you live on the income from the Bengals. Well, 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:50.960 oh yeah, no, I mean, I don't know, because I've 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.560 had this new career as a novelist, and also Universal 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.399 Pictures bought the books the book rights to my novel 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:02.240 and employed me to write the screenplay. And I'm happy 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:05.160 to say that I delivered the screenplay just very recently. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:11.080 So I'm actually making in my sixties, actually more money 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:15.399 than I think I made as a musician. But maybe 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:20.800 that makes sense. The music business has always been hard 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:25.000 to figure out. It's a complicate. The way everything works 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:29.040 in the music business is complicated. I feel slightly ghost 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.560 talking that way though, about how surprising it was that 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:42.439 I had this other career. But anyway, so let's go 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:45.000 back to the book. You attempted a novel in the 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.000 last century. What literally inspired you to write this time? 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:56.080 Just a passion for books, for fiction, and just a 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:00.560 genuine passion as a reader myself and I had always 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.800 wanted to. And I was sitting there with my kids 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.560 and Jay one day on the heels of a screenplay 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.679 that I had just co written for Warner Brothers, of 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:15.000 all things, and it looked like it was just going 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:20.199 to be shelved. And I'd had this wonderful collaboration with 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:24.840 a guy named Larry Stuckey writing this kind of musical. 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.960 It was a musical movie. And I thought, what now? 0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.560 And my kid, my older kid, Jackson, said, Mom, you've 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:34.960 always wanted to write in a novel. What are you 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.160 waiting for? And I said, what am I waiting for? 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.280 And then he kind of prodded me again. I started 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.240 to craft the story, as I told you, sort of 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:45.960 the themes and the story and the character might be it. 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.480 Should she be in showbiz? Should she be? It took 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.920 me a while to comerade. I originally thought maybe she'd 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:54.959 be an actress, and I thought, well, I know music, 0:21:55.080 --> 0:21:56.800 I know what that feels like. I think I could 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:02.160 imbue the story and the character with with really rich 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:06.640 conflict and predicament because I've I've been there, done that. 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.679 So and then I just I just He said, about 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.960 a week later, stop talking about your story and just start, 0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:18.680 and he like gave me this edict and I sort 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:20.920 of said and he said He even went on to 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:24.840 detail it. He said, Mom, I want you to wake 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.440 up tomorrow morning, open your computer, stare at that bank 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:31.760 blank page, and just start writing. And I was like done, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.159 I'm going to do it. And I did, and I 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:38.200 sat down. I had no idea. My fingers just automatically typed. 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:41.639 And the first line was not the first line that 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.160 you see in the in the final novel, but it 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.080 was a first. It was a start. I wrote about 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.560 two pages and I went, Okay, I'm going to force 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:52.679 myself to read it to my family. I invited my 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.639 even my parents over. I wanted to know that I 0:22:55.640 --> 0:22:57.919 had done it. It was like I planted my flag 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:01.040 in the sand and they were all and I wasn't 0:23:01.040 --> 0:23:03.439 going to chicken out and I wasn't gonna you know, 0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:05.760 I was going to make good on my promise. And 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:07.640 that was it. That was the beginning, and I never 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.880 looked back. How old was your son when he implored 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.560 you to do this? Okay, so it was I'm admitting 0:23:14.560 --> 0:23:17.159 how long ago was It was twenty fifteen, so he 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:22.560 was twenty okay, so an adult. So you're talking about 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:26.119 having the story before you wrote. To what degree was 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.320 the story fleshed out before you put your fingers to keyboard. 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.960 It wasn't fleshed out much at all. Really, I knew 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.280 I basically because I wrote a first person, narrated story. 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:44.280 What would happen would be I would almost disappear, I 0:23:44.320 --> 0:23:47.680 would disappear out of myself, even though I was sort 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.720 of the god of her, you know, I was, I 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:54.240 was puppeting her, but I would just let her go 0:23:54.560 --> 0:23:58.800 in my imagination and Jane start would just start talking. 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.919 And I found that she had a voice, and she 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:08.720 was sassy, and she was emotional, and she was occasionally unhinged, 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:14.120 but also a smart young lady, a smart thirty something girl. 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:20.840 She has tremendous compassion and empathy for other people. She's 0:24:20.880 --> 0:24:24.000 a good person. And that mattered to me that the 0:24:24.119 --> 0:24:26.520 characters that I wanted to fall in love, that they 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:30.639 though they have many flaws as all of us have, 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:37.920 that they actually were goodhearted human beings. And I wanted 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.840 her to go through her paces and her struggles, but 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:45.000 at the end of the day, I wanted I hoped 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.560 that she would find love and connection in her life. 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:51.399 So that was kind of those were important things. And 0:24:51.720 --> 0:24:54.080 all of the characters started to just talk to me. 0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.960 I know it was kind of a form of psychosis. 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.720 Maybe I don't know. I've never asked other is about it, 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:06.120 but um, you kind of you kind of just hear 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.960 voices in your head tell that they would, they would 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:12.880 narrate their thoughts. And also, actually, I'm looking over here 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.040 at my phone. This is my new phone. I had 0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:17.520 an old, older phone when I was writing the book. 0:25:18.280 --> 0:25:22.160 I would just try to bottle what they were saying immediately, 0:25:22.520 --> 0:25:24.760 so I had I would wake up in the middle 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.639 of the night. I always kept a pen and pad 0:25:27.880 --> 0:25:32.280 by the bed during the day. If my characters start 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.760 talking to me, I would I would. I learned the 0:25:35.800 --> 0:25:38.400 hard way. Don't assume this great thing that they said 0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:41.120 you're going to remember. I would just capture it on 0:25:41.160 --> 0:25:43.800 my phone. I would text myself or email myself at 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:48.960 thousands of texts and emails to myself. Okay, they're different 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:52.000 styles of writing. Some people plot it all out and 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:55.480 then lay it all down. One of the things I 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:58.520 love about writing is you never know where you're really 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:01.560 going in your surprise, did you learn things without even 0:26:01.640 --> 0:26:03.960 realizing and you look at the paper, what was your 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:08.479 experience it was? It was kind of similar to that. Um, 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:13.040 I didn't have it all plotted out, and I wonder 0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:16.960 if I probably should have. But even in the eleventh hour, 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:20.480 I remember I was sitting there about to do send 0:26:20.520 --> 0:26:25.080 my editor and this is cut to years later, Little 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:30.840 Brown and we you know, wants the book. I take 0:26:30.920 --> 0:26:37.480 their offer. I have finally an actual editor. I commune 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:43.119 with her. Revisions happen. But at the eleventh hour I 0:26:43.280 --> 0:26:47.720 was I had a sudden thought, well, actually, Jay, Jay 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:49.920 took a look at at a little thing that I did. 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:53.239 I asked for him to clap eyes on something in 0:26:53.280 --> 0:26:57.960 the in the eleventh hour, and he said, it's repetitive. 0:26:58.880 --> 0:27:01.880 He gave me the golden nugget and I didn't really 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:03.919 want to hear it. I mean, I was due to 0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:07.800 hit send on this draft. It was really right, like 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:12.639 the final thing. And apart from catching typos or something 0:27:12.680 --> 0:27:15.760 like that that they sometimes they have people that because 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.160 you read these sentences over and over again, you stop, 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:21.720 you stop seeing a typo. But I sat there and 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:24.920 I did this revision and my hands were kind of shaking, 0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:27.000 and it was like an emotional part of the book, 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:29.800 and I knew that it was working because I was 0:27:29.880 --> 0:27:33.520 crying a little bit for Jane. I was crying tears 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:37.639 of anxiety and tears of joy all mixed together. And 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:41.520 I thought, okay, yeah, if I whenever I'm triggered like that, 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:44.480 it means something, and then I just hit send and 0:27:44.520 --> 0:27:47.600 then that's what That's what ended up being in that spot. 0:27:47.960 --> 0:27:51.840 It was really eleventh hour. Okay, So the first draft 0:27:51.920 --> 0:27:56.760 took I mean yeah, first run a completion to Cowlong 0:27:59.240 --> 0:28:03.160 several years, several years. I didn't. I had one friend. 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:06.560 It was very solitary. But I had my best childhood 0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:10.520 friend who was going through some hard times and I 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:15.760 had this behemoth draft. It's like this thick. It had 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:18.560 a whole section that's not in the book anymore. But 0:28:18.760 --> 0:28:21.840 she is a lover of fiction and it was something 0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:25.040 we had shared as kids. But we were always talking 0:28:25.040 --> 0:28:29.160 about what books were reading. And she she's an aspiring 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:34.040 writer herself. She would schlep over to my house and 0:28:34.080 --> 0:28:36.640 she just wanted me to read to her. So I said, 0:28:36.640 --> 0:28:39.040 well you, I'll read you my book. She's I said, 0:28:39.040 --> 0:28:42.680 it's not finished, it's this is the current draft. Said go, 0:28:43.360 --> 0:28:45.320 and she would come over and I would read it 0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:49.200 aloud and act out the parts as best that I could, 0:28:49.280 --> 0:28:52.880 and she was It was like a It was like 0:28:52.920 --> 0:28:55.600 a healing thing for her to just to be read to. 0:28:55.880 --> 0:28:58.160 And I needed to say the words out loud. I 0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:01.520 don't know if novelists all do this, but it's important 0:29:01.520 --> 0:29:03.520 to say the words out loud to see if the 0:29:03.600 --> 0:29:07.479 dialogue feels right and to see if it makes sense. 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.280 So I don't know if everybody does it, but the 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:12.760 fact that my friend wanted me to read her my 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:16.920 early draft, I think I learned a lot from that, actually, 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:22.000 And what do you think you learned? Well? I learned 0:29:22.000 --> 0:29:27.200 that the story was affecting her, which was very important. 0:29:27.240 --> 0:29:32.840 I learned that this giant section of the book needed 0:29:32.880 --> 0:29:36.200 not to be in the book, that it was just 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:41.680 something that I had written as an exploration. And I 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:43.800 love it and I want to I want to rescue 0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.880 it and resurrect it for my next book because it 0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:50.440 was really fun. One of the characters, which is the 0:29:50.560 --> 0:29:56.920 character of Alfie, figured prominently in it. But yeah, I 0:29:57.040 --> 0:30:00.360 learned a heck of a lot. The act of reading 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:04.680 aloud was useful, and I ended up reading my audio 0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:09.320 book myself. I knew that I had to. I knew 0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:14.000 that no one else would understand the inflection, and quite 0:30:15.200 --> 0:30:17.320 as I told you, I hear the voices in my head, 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:20.240 so I did my best to read them as I 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:23.320 heard them. Except then I found this, I found myself 0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:25.400 at this moment where it's like, I'm not good at 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:28.520 British accents and there's like five different kind of British 0:30:28.560 --> 0:30:32.320 accents in my book. And the Jane Eyre that had 0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:36.600 blown my mind was read by a wonderful British actress 0:30:36.680 --> 0:30:41.680 named Juliette Stevenson. So so many of my dreams came true, 0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:46.280 like in this process because I started to I had 0:30:46.320 --> 0:30:50.120 listened to Juliet read to me some of my favorite books, 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:53.600 not just Jane Eyre, but there's a book by Sarah Waters, 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.719 a wonderful Irish novelist called The Paying Guests. And I 0:30:56.800 --> 0:31:00.920 had studied certain books, certain books while while I was reading. 0:31:00.960 --> 0:31:04.120 I want to say, whilst I was reading, I would 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:10.080 reread certain books over and over and over again, and 0:31:10.400 --> 0:31:14.320 they just were like it was like a tutorial for me. 0:31:14.840 --> 0:31:18.080 And so I reached out to every single person I 0:31:18.160 --> 0:31:21.880 knew who might know Juliet Stevenson to see if she 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:24.960 would do the British voices in my audiobook. And guess what, 0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:29.640 I just checked audible dot com wait wait for it, 0:31:29.680 --> 0:31:32.440 and she's listed. She did it. I found out that 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.280 she did it, but also to see it, I can't 0:31:35.320 --> 0:31:38.520 find it on here, but to see it on listed 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:43.840 on my Audible for my book narrated by Susannah Hoffs 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:50.520 and Juliet Stevenson. Wow, dream come true. M. We live 0:31:50.520 --> 0:31:53.680 in a society where most people can't even complete things. 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.200 How did you keep yourself going over a two year process? 0:31:57.920 --> 0:32:00.600 Well it was actually more than two years, but yes, 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:05.280 how did I keep myself going? Just the passion to 0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:08.160 do it? It was escapist for me, the writing you 0:32:08.200 --> 0:32:12.680 mean in particular, yes, yeah, um, wanting to hang out 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:19.280 with my characters. M. Music really really really triggered all 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:23.880 these It was like the juice. It was like knocking 0:32:23.920 --> 0:32:26.320 back a whiskey if that's your thing. Like I would 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:31.720 just get like excited music. And that's why I posted 0:32:31.760 --> 0:32:37.000 the playlist of the book on my Spotify Spotify people 0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:41.520 go check it out, but also, um, and check out 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:45.239 my new music on Spotify. Sorry, it's so hard to 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:49.120 connect with the music side of things right now, but UM, 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:52.160 I hope that that will happen. But yeah, I'm just 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.920 looking at my my Spotify posted the playlist on there 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:59.920 and most of the chapter headings, not all, but when 0:33:00.000 --> 0:33:02.680 whenever I could use a song title as a chop 0:33:02.880 --> 0:33:08.080 as a chapter heading I did for music Lovers. Okay, 0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:12.040 so you finished the book? To what degree did you rewrite? 0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:16.960 Some people the original is just you know, code hangers 0:33:16.960 --> 0:33:19.880 where they hang everything. I'm the opposite. It's pretty close 0:33:19.880 --> 0:33:22.760 to done when I finished the first draft. What was 0:33:22.800 --> 0:33:26.120 your experience, Well, there were there were so many drafts 0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:30.320 that leading up to the to the draft that my 0:33:30.320 --> 0:33:35.520 my best friend who's a novelist, Margaret, stole Pride from 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:39.800 my reticent grasp I guess, I would say. And she 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:46.280 read it very quickly and said, I don't know, said 0:33:46.280 --> 0:33:48.120 a lot of really nice things and that she was 0:33:48.200 --> 0:33:51.040 extremely moved by it, and she's she insisted I get 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:55.400 it to a literary agent asap. And I said, oh, well, 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:58.560 do you have someone in mind? And she said, well, 0:33:58.600 --> 0:34:01.440 I think my agent, Sarah Burn would love it. And 0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:06.360 so on my sixtieth birthday, when it was pissing down 0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:09.640 rain in La, I was due to have lunch with 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:13.440 Belinda Carlyle, who I love from the Go Gos, a 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:16.440 Bengal and a Go Go had planned lunch and a 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:20.560 kind of a birthday lunch for me, and I asked 0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.759 my son, Jackson, the same kid of mine that insisted 0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:26.359 I write the novel and all that. He said, Mom, 0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:29.239 I'll drive it to FedEx. I was like, that's the 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:33.040 best birthday present a gal ever got. Thank you. And 0:34:33.120 --> 0:34:36.440 so Sarah got the manuscript the next day. We did 0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:41.440 an overnight. She read it very quickly. I was at 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:44.560 a friend's house. This is pre pandemic, and he had 0:34:44.600 --> 0:34:48.520 a little movie night thing on Sundays. I tried to 0:34:48.560 --> 0:34:51.440 put it out of my mind that Sarah was reading 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:55.920 my manuscript. And I just sat down with everybody and 0:34:55.960 --> 0:34:58.280 they just put on the movie that we were watching. 0:34:58.719 --> 0:35:01.400 When I had the stink or they were just about 0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:03.719 to turn on the movie, the instinct, Well, maybe I 0:35:03.760 --> 0:35:07.680 should check my email, And there was the email from 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:12.959 Sarah saying, I'm actually near you in La. I flew 0:35:13.000 --> 0:35:15.720 in from New York. Can we meet for coffee tomorrow? 0:35:16.040 --> 0:35:18.840 And I was actually I couldn't because I was recording 0:35:18.840 --> 0:35:22.960 my Bright Lights record. At that point I had started 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.520 piecing together recording session. Sorry, this is a rambling story, 0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:29.880 Keep going, keep going. But I couldn't meet with her. 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:32.600 So she said, I said, but I'm due to come 0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:35.800 to New York in a couple of weeks, and she said, great, 0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:39.799 let's meet at my office. So Jay and I had 0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:43.400 planned this trip to New York. I get there. I 0:35:43.480 --> 0:35:47.319 actually wore a suit and I walked from where we 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:51.480 were staying in Midtown to Sarah Burne's office and I 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:53.279 kind of cried a little bit on the way. There 0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:57.839 was very cold, because I thought, I'm really, this is 0:35:57.880 --> 0:36:01.799 really happening. I'm meeting a literary agent in New York 0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:04.879 City at her office. And then she took me out 0:36:04.920 --> 0:36:08.840 to lunch. I met the other her cohort at the office. 0:36:08.840 --> 0:36:12.040 They were amazing. One of them, David Gerner, it's the 0:36:12.080 --> 0:36:15.400 Gern Company, said I love Hero Takes a Fall. I 0:36:15.520 --> 0:36:18.759 was like, check, you had me at Hello. It was like, 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:22.640 what you know that song? Nobody mentions that song? And 0:36:22.680 --> 0:36:25.279 then um, Sarah at Burns and I went to the 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:30.480 restaurant where the literary where the book people did the 0:36:30.520 --> 0:36:34.719 book community gather their watering hole. I was dying. I 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:39.560 was just dying. It was so awesome. And we talked 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:42.080 about the book and she told me which things she 0:36:42.239 --> 0:36:45.200 loved the most and which things that you know, just 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:51.680 we just started the conversation and it just went from there. Yeah, 0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.600 and then eventually we you know, we we got a 0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:57.920 Little Brown picked up the book anyway, So did she 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:02.120 say at that first meeting she wanted to do it? Oh? Yeah, 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:04.879 I mean she wanted to meet me. Even before that, 0:37:04.960 --> 0:37:07.600 she wanted to she was going to stay in La 0:37:07.719 --> 0:37:10.560 maybe another day because she's based in New York to 0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.480 meet me. So she was very enthusiastic right from the 0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:17.319 get go. And who knew my friend Margaret. I mean 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.839 she just I was so afraid to share the book 0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:26.160 with anybody. It was such a it was such a 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:30.080 blissful journey solo. But I just wasn't. I just kept 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:32.000 wanting to make it better and better, and you know, 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:35.520 I don't know, I was a little resistant. And how 0:37:35.520 --> 0:37:40.200 did it end up at Little Brown? Well, so Sarah 0:37:40.320 --> 0:37:45.440 then finally came the day where I worked on some revisions. 0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:48.239 And Sarah, because she had edited The Lovely Bones and 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:51.000 many other books and came from editing, had just beautiful 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:55.200 ideas and suggestions. At one point, my book was all 0:37:55.200 --> 0:37:58.400 in present tense, for example, and there was a moment 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:03.160 where she suggested trying past tense and I'm like, okay, 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:05.879 you know, and I did. So there was a lot 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:10.279 of learning on it because my friend Margaret's and novelists. 0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:13.320 She read the book a lot of times for me, Sarah, 0:38:13.360 --> 0:38:18.400 I just had a few good compadres early on after 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:22.840 years of you know, hammering away at it. So then 0:38:23.000 --> 0:38:26.080 it came time, She's like, we're ready. I sent in 0:38:26.120 --> 0:38:28.480 a draft. I worked really hard on it. It was 0:38:28.520 --> 0:38:31.840 like I would send these drafts at like eleven fifty 0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:35.399 nine PM when they were due for her to wake 0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:39.160 up to the draft, you know that she needed from me. 0:38:39.680 --> 0:38:41.680 And so she said, we're ready, and she's like, I'm 0:38:41.800 --> 0:38:45.479 I'm going to go out to publishing houses and she said, 0:38:45.520 --> 0:38:49.160 don't be alarmed if we don't hear anything for it. 0:38:49.200 --> 0:38:51.480 They take they need to read it and they sometimes 0:38:51.480 --> 0:38:54.360 take a little bit of time people traveling. I was like, okay, 0:38:54.440 --> 0:38:58.360 I'm I'm gonna be so calm. I'm taking this advice 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:03.840 from you. And like about Thursday or Wednesday of that 0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:06.800 day of that week, while I was waiting, I couldn't 0:39:06.840 --> 0:39:09.120 help it, and I called Sarah and I said, I'm 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:13.000 just calling, just calling. I hope everything's okay. I know 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:17.400 I'm supposed to be tuning all of this out, but 0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:19.520 I am admitting to you that I'm just kind of 0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:25.359 pacing around aimlessly in my house, wringing my hands and UM, yeah, 0:39:25.400 --> 0:39:28.320 just let me know if you hear anything. And then 0:39:28.560 --> 0:39:33.640 sure enough, the beginning of the following week, she was 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:35.759 starting to get the reads were in and she was 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:39.759 starting to get a lot of interest. And then there 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:43.960 was a Right around that time, I got a text 0:39:44.040 --> 0:39:48.560 from her saying that the incredible editor Judy Klain, who 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:53.759 had edited I mean so many books Julie and Julia, well, 0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:58.400 we could look it up. I'm you know, where'd you 0:39:58.480 --> 0:40:04.360 go Bernadette for examp couple incredible books. She was reading 0:40:04.400 --> 0:40:08.440 it and my friend Margaret and I were having coffee, 0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:11.560 and Margaret started crying. She goes, do you know about 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:14.120 Judy Claine? I said, I know nothing. I know the 0:40:14.239 --> 0:40:17.120 music business, I don't know the book business. I don't 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:20.480 know who the people at the book business are. And 0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:24.200 she said she was so happy for me that Judy 0:40:24.360 --> 0:40:27.399 was reading them and really enjoying the book. So it 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:32.040 turned out that a wonderful young editor, Helen O'Hare at 0:40:32.719 --> 0:40:35.359 Judy shared the book with Helen and said, I think 0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:38.719 this might be up your alley, and then Helen read it, 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:43.200 and then things were likely went really really fast. In fact, 0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:47.040 they made me a preemptive offer, and it actually had 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:52.000 a ticking clock on it, and I just Sarah Burns 0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:56.040 happened to fly in from New York that day and 0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:59.440 we just I had to come to a decision before 0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:03.040 it was like five pm LA time, eight pm New 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:05.239 York time. I had to say yes or no. And 0:41:05.320 --> 0:41:18.280 I said yes, okay? And how long from that verbalization 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:23.120 of yes until the book came out? So that would 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:26.719 have been May of twenty twenty one, So we were 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:32.799 right in the midst of the pandemic. And so now 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:35.719 the book is coming out, and I was told that 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:40.280 it would take way longer than one expects. Yeah. So yeah, 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:43.879 So they got the book around that time. So May 0:41:44.000 --> 0:41:48.360 of twenty twenty one. I did revisions, but they already 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:53.960 knew bye bye bye. A year later it had been 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:59.960 any revisions that had done had apart from odd type 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:03.920 post that snuck their way through. Um, it was pretty 0:42:04.000 --> 0:42:08.439 much done. But then there's that build up to pub date, 0:42:09.160 --> 0:42:11.479 you know, and they and they said pub date would 0:42:11.520 --> 0:42:15.360 be uh, it's just coming up April fourth, twenty twenty three. 0:42:16.360 --> 0:42:18.919 There's a long journey for books. There's and there's kind 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:21.160 of the way that they set it up. Yeah, so 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:24.319 it's good because it gave me a chance to um 0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:28.399 read the audio book and a lot of other things. 0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:31.759 There was a lot of steps in the pre promotion. 0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:34.520 There was quite a bit of pre promotion, some of 0:42:34.520 --> 0:42:39.279 it in house with Little Brown. Okay, can you tell 0:42:39.360 --> 0:42:42.440 us more about external pre promotion and how the whole 0:42:42.560 --> 0:42:48.760 process of promotion uh looks visa v. The music business? Well, 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:51.960 I mean, then then I met the wonderful Nicole Dewey 0:42:52.239 --> 0:42:57.960 and Carla who you know that because it was Carla 0:42:57.960 --> 0:42:59.920 I had met on the Bright Lights record through my 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:06.680 managers Russell Carter and Kathy Lyons and Adrian Carter that 0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:10.279 the team there at ar camp, and so I already 0:43:11.440 --> 0:43:15.920 was just so happy to be to be united with 0:43:16.000 --> 0:43:19.240 Carla because she has such a great love of music. 0:43:19.480 --> 0:43:22.239 And actually I insisted she read She's I don't know 0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:25.319 if Carlo's listening her. If she's not, she'll hear this 0:43:25.400 --> 0:43:28.920 on the podcast if it stays in. But I insisted 0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:32.440 that Carla read John Updike's Couples, which is one of 0:43:32.440 --> 0:43:36.520 my favorite books. So even even when I first Yeah, 0:43:36.560 --> 0:43:41.759 so I'm digressing, I'm all over the place here, but yeah, 0:43:41.760 --> 0:43:44.560 so what was your question again, sorry, any more coffee. 0:43:44.600 --> 0:43:47.320 It was precisely what you wanted to know. The timeline. 0:43:47.480 --> 0:43:51.400 Two things. The process of pre promotion, I know, like 0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:55.920 if you go on Amazon and these other places, books 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:58.760 are sent to people pre publishing day, trying to build 0:43:58.760 --> 0:44:01.360 a buzz. Oh yeah. And I was also interested in 0:44:01.360 --> 0:44:07.080 the process your experience relatives your experience of promoting music. Okay, yeah, 0:44:07.160 --> 0:44:10.520 So the process with books is that they send out galleys, 0:44:11.000 --> 0:44:14.480 so they're not the final, final, final, final version. But 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:18.800 um and and there's different aspects to it, like there's 0:44:18.840 --> 0:44:23.400 a there's a tradition with books to get blurbs from blurbs, 0:44:23.480 --> 0:44:29.280 quotes from other novelists. So um, that started to happen, 0:44:29.360 --> 0:44:33.040 and there was some element of having to write letters 0:44:33.120 --> 0:44:38.120 to people. Um and and then I was so happy 0:44:38.200 --> 0:44:42.880 when um Tom Perata, who I worship his novels, and 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.120 had the great fortune to meet him years back when 0:44:46.160 --> 0:44:48.920 I was on the road with Matthew Sweet doing our 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:52.799 covers records, and um he came to He and his 0:44:52.840 --> 0:44:56.160 wife Mary came to a few of the shows and 0:44:56.160 --> 0:45:01.080 and so Tom read my manus script. At that point, 0:45:01.080 --> 0:45:04.520 it was still the printed out pages nothing fancy or 0:45:04.680 --> 0:45:08.720 bound early reading copy or anything like that. Not before 0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:12.239 the galleys. He read a version on a coast to 0:45:12.280 --> 0:45:16.200 coast flight from LA to New York, which is really 0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:19.320 fitting for the story. If you've read the book, there's 0:45:19.960 --> 0:45:22.440 a plane scene that factors really heavily in it, and 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.759 he really loved it, and he stepped right up and 0:45:25.800 --> 0:45:30.000 wrote the most incredible blurb. I also shared it with 0:45:30.120 --> 0:45:34.240 other novelist friends like Helen Fielding, who's written the wonderful 0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:39.200 Bridget Jones books and is really a wonderful friend and writer. 0:45:39.360 --> 0:45:43.080 And then then I would reach out to other people, 0:45:43.160 --> 0:45:45.920 and Little Brown had some people that they thought would 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:49.760 would be interested in the book as well who's stepped 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.640 up and took the time to read it and to 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:55.920 you know, put a little stamp of endorsement with a 0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:58.200 blurb of what they liked about it. So there was that. 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:01.879 It was a busy time in the beginning of doing 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:08.360 interviews and starting to think about coming out of my 0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.480 my hell my not my hell my, my whole, my 0:46:11.840 --> 0:46:16.080 cloistered life, pandemic life, being just sitting in a little 0:46:16.160 --> 0:46:18.160 room writing all the time, to come out and be 0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:23.320 more part of engaging with the outside world with getting 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:27.400 feedback and so on. Okay, mentioned Tom Parada. Did you 0:46:27.400 --> 0:46:30.640 ever read his book to Wishbones? Oh? Yeah. In fact, 0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:32.680 I just did a piece for the I just did 0:46:32.719 --> 0:46:35.680 a by the book for the New York Times, which 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:39.359 is a running piece where they talked to novelists and 0:46:39.520 --> 0:46:44.680 about you know, they post a set of questions, and um, 0:46:45.800 --> 0:46:48.560 there was one of the questions I'm paraphrasing here about 0:46:48.600 --> 0:46:53.719 what books or what authors who write about music? Um, 0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:56.719 do you love and and and the Wishbones was? I mean, 0:46:57.320 --> 0:46:59.840 I think I've read every every Tom Parata book, but 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.400 I really loved reading The Wishbones because anyone who's ever 0:47:03.520 --> 0:47:10.480 started a band, you know, understands that story. Okay, how 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:14.879 did the book end up at Universal? Okay? So um. 0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:21.799 Early on in the process, Sarah Burns connected me with 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:25.280 someone who happened to be a friend. And she didn't 0:47:25.280 --> 0:47:29.239 realize that Sylvie rabina who's who reps Tom Parata. As 0:47:29.239 --> 0:47:33.680 it happens, she's their agent. And I went to high 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:38.000 school with Sylvie Rabineau's husband, Steve Rabinou. In fact, I 0:47:38.080 --> 0:47:41.600 think my first boy crush was on Steve, and the 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:43.880 first time I ever went on a date with anybody. 0:47:43.880 --> 0:47:47.160 I was very late. Bloomer was with Steve and we 0:47:47.239 --> 0:47:50.200 went to I think it was Alice's restaurant in Westwood. 0:47:50.480 --> 0:47:53.960 It was, it was, it was. So it's so funny 0:47:54.000 --> 0:47:55.920 that I've known him all these years and I have 0:47:56.040 --> 0:48:01.040 this sort of awkward first date story. But so Sylvie 0:48:01.440 --> 0:48:05.200 read read a draft of the book and said, oh, 0:48:05.640 --> 0:48:09.640 I want to rep this for a movie adaptation, a 0:48:09.719 --> 0:48:13.319 film adaptation. So early on there was this idea of 0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:16.600 a film adaptation, which made sense to me because it 0:48:16.640 --> 0:48:18.799 was really like writing the book was like watching the 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.480 movie of the book. It was just an inside my 0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:24.279 brain is like a screen would come down and I'd 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:26.560 see the characters and then I'd just like write what 0:48:26.600 --> 0:48:28.439 they were saying and where they were and what their 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:32.040 expressions were, etc. So it did make sense to me, 0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:35.600 and it was like deep a deep down dream beyond 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:41.160 writing the novel that there would be a film adaptation 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:44.080 of it, because I mean, especially after all the years 0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:50.120 writing writing screenplays, co writing screenplays with people, but wondering 0:48:50.160 --> 0:48:53.920 if anything would ever happen. So yeah, So now then 0:48:54.280 --> 0:48:58.399 Liza Chasin and Bruno Pop and Drea teamed up their 0:48:58.440 --> 0:49:02.959 incredible movie producers, women that I've known through Jay. And 0:49:03.000 --> 0:49:06.040 then um, I started to do a bunch of zooms. 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.239 It was still all zooms, as it still is to 0:49:09.280 --> 0:49:12.680 some extent, and not not in person meetings, and I 0:49:12.760 --> 0:49:17.920 met with all kinds of streaming you know, Netflix, different, 0:49:17.920 --> 0:49:19.680 I don't want to name all the names, but and 0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:23.480 then then, um, one day I got my list of 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.680 who I was zooming with and it was Eric Buyers 0:49:26.680 --> 0:49:31.040 at Universal. Jay walked in the door and he said, 0:49:31.120 --> 0:49:34.680 I said, Jay, guess who I'm zooming with today Universal Pictures, 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:37.560 and it's Eric Buyers. And he just stopped in his 0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:43.200 tracks and he said, Eric Buyers and Universal, those those 0:49:43.239 --> 0:49:46.040 are my favorite that that is, those are my favorites. 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:49.640 You know that Eric is my favorite executive in all 0:49:49.719 --> 0:49:52.520 of Hollywood. I probably shouldn't say these things because I'm 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.880 sure he loves other ones too, but he just and 0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:59.280 then he said something like, wait, Eric Buyers read your book, 0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:04.280 said apparently, And then I zoomed with him and Liza 0:50:04.360 --> 0:50:06.719 and Bruna and it was just again it was like 0:50:06.800 --> 0:50:10.520 little Brown. They just were like, boom, We're in. So, 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:13.560 you know, sometimes it's like I met Janna blind date. 0:50:13.640 --> 0:50:15.560 Maybe it was that kind of thing. I'd just been 0:50:15.680 --> 0:50:21.800 lucky that way. When the chemistry's there, it's just as there. Okay, 0:50:21.880 --> 0:50:25.320 tell me about being a late bloomer. A late bloomer, 0:50:25.480 --> 0:50:31.520 Oh you mean in love? Yes, Okay, Well I was 0:50:31.920 --> 0:50:35.240 because I don't know, I was one of those kids 0:50:35.239 --> 0:50:39.359 who just was a late bloomer. I just, you know, 0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:43.279 right when everybody else was turning into like sex goddesses 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.680 in high school, I still was like sneaking in on 0:50:46.719 --> 0:50:49.600 the kids tickets at the movie theaters. Remember the kids 0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:56.960 tickets of course, So you know, I mean it's I 0:50:57.040 --> 0:51:00.600 was surprised when the Bengals thing happened that I somehow 0:51:01.320 --> 0:51:05.640 cast off my like the girl on the schoolyard who 0:51:06.080 --> 0:51:08.920 looked like she was in a couple grades back, you know, 0:51:09.040 --> 0:51:13.759 like not because of her intelligence, but because she just 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:18.040 looked really tiny. Um, I'm a small Jewish woman. What 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:21.359 could I say? Not that being Judaish has anything to 0:51:21.400 --> 0:51:23.560 do with it, But my identity was not. I was 0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:26.480 not like if you go to school, high school at 0:51:26.480 --> 0:51:29.640 Pali High, it's like fast Times at Ridgemont High. Like 0:51:29.920 --> 0:51:33.600 there's the cool kids and then there's like the bookish kids, 0:51:33.840 --> 0:51:37.040 or like the music drama kids that are in this 0:51:37.080 --> 0:51:40.879 little subset. I was in the music drama kids, but 0:51:40.920 --> 0:51:44.400 I wasn't. I wasn't a cool kid. I wasn't a 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:48.560 surfer girl. That's that's what it was back then. So 0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:52.320 what was your experience in college? Well, that just broke 0:51:52.360 --> 0:51:54.719 open all the doors, didn't it. I mean, I go 0:51:54.880 --> 0:51:59.400 up to UC Berkeley, and I flew up there by myself. 0:51:59.520 --> 0:52:04.120 There it's the seventies. Nobody's parents came and unpacked their 0:52:04.800 --> 0:52:08.200 betting for them. It was like, here's your plane ticket. 0:52:09.120 --> 0:52:12.480 I flew up, I land in Oakland, I get off 0:52:12.480 --> 0:52:15.000 the thing. I have this giant Duffel bag. I get 0:52:15.040 --> 0:52:17.960 off the plane and I get to take the bus 0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:23.680 to Berkeley, and I'm literally on Telegraph Avenue. Have there's 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:27.080 no iPhones, there's no map Quest, there's no you know. 0:52:27.560 --> 0:52:32.200 I just dragged this Duffel bag towards the dorm and 0:52:32.480 --> 0:52:36.520 I'm like immediately in love with Berkeley. I'm like the 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:41.480 seventies hippie chicken me was going crazy. All these bookstores, 0:52:41.600 --> 0:52:46.840 all these cool coffee houses. But I am am dragging 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:50.080 this thing that was too heavy. And suddenly these two 0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:52.759 guys come over and say, can we help you with that, 0:52:53.520 --> 0:52:57.040 and I'm like looking over my shoulder, like you mean me, 0:52:57.480 --> 0:53:01.280 and they're like, yeah, yeah, you're struggling with that duffel bag. 0:53:01.640 --> 0:53:05.560 And I thought, they don't know me. They don't know that. 0:53:05.800 --> 0:53:08.200 They don't know the me I think of myself from 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:13.319 high school. They don't know that. So I went, oh, why, yes, 0:53:13.440 --> 0:53:17.000 you can help me, and they dried. They took my 0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.080 bag into the dorm and helped me, and I thought, 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:24.120 I had I can start, I can start fresh. Yeah 0:53:24.120 --> 0:53:28.200 it was weird, and did you continue down that path 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:31.840 of being a different person, Well, it wasn't. It was 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:35.799 an invitation to be this other person and to realize 0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:42.400 that the slate was blank and I could, yeah, I 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:46.040 could start this chapter, like really turned the page and 0:53:46.120 --> 0:53:52.920 start this new chapter. And you know, Berkeley was so bohemian, 0:53:53.160 --> 0:53:57.120 and you know, it wasn't like my high school was 0:53:57.200 --> 0:54:02.560 one of those sort of giant kind of I don't know, 0:54:02.640 --> 0:54:07.080 high school was hard. Yeah I did. Let's just say 0:54:07.120 --> 0:54:09.920 that it was the beginning of a brand new chapter. 0:54:10.080 --> 0:54:12.319 And I don't want to say a new me, but 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:17.040 a new confidence in being me. That's one way to 0:54:17.080 --> 0:54:20.960 put it. And tell me the circumstances of the blind 0:54:21.040 --> 0:54:26.280 date with Jay oh Okay cut through later later, later, later. 0:54:28.360 --> 0:54:32.600 It was November twenty second, nineteen ninety one. I had 0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:37.399 been yet again working on a creative writing project with 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:41.759 my boyfriend at the time, Donovan Leech, who was the 0:54:41.880 --> 0:54:44.960 son of or my ex boyfriend. Sorry, of course I 0:54:44.960 --> 0:54:47.680 wouldn't be going on. We had already broken up, but 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:52.160 we were still friends and still are. So Donovan leached 0:54:52.200 --> 0:54:55.840 the son of the singer Donovan, and a guy named 0:54:55.840 --> 0:54:59.520 Mark Stern, and I don't remember how I was connected 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:04.360 to Mark, but we were writing sort of a twenty something, 0:55:04.600 --> 0:55:08.279 like a melrose Place thing before Melrose Place. It was 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:12.680 a kind of a take on the series thirty something 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:16.920 that I loved. Edswick and Marshall Herskovitz, who I got 0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:22.440 to know over the years too, had written it. And anyway, 0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:28.759 Mark Stern, I said, who, who can you invite me 0:55:28.800 --> 0:55:33.160 to a party? I'm single, I don't know how to date. 0:55:33.360 --> 0:55:36.680 This is before apps anyway, not that I would have 0:55:36.800 --> 0:55:40.880 used apps maybe, I don't know. That wasn't something that 0:55:40.960 --> 0:55:44.080 was available to people then. It was more like word 0:55:44.080 --> 0:55:47.880 of mouth. And he said, well, I know this film 0:55:47.960 --> 0:55:54.680 professor at USC who has written some stuff at our company. 0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:57.799 He's a screenwriter, but his sort of day job is 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:04.200 he teaches at USC and I went, film person, film professor, 0:56:04.200 --> 0:56:07.000 not rock star or not I mean, not person from 0:56:07.000 --> 0:56:10.800 the music business, not person exactly. Not an actor or 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:15.560 not a sorry i'm babbling. Not an actor, not a musician. 0:56:15.600 --> 0:56:21.160 This sounds good because I like academics, and I like academias. 0:56:21.160 --> 0:56:25.920 So I get. I'm told where the appointed restaurant is 0:56:26.200 --> 0:56:28.799 and what time to be there, and I show up. 0:56:29.600 --> 0:56:34.040 I go up to the host as she said, oh, 0:56:34.120 --> 0:56:36.080 because it was meant to be a dinner party, let 0:56:36.080 --> 0:56:40.160 me just put it that way. I'm sorry, a more coffee. 0:56:40.920 --> 0:56:43.160 It wasn't a one on one date. I didn't want 0:56:43.160 --> 0:56:44.839 to go on a one on one date. I wanted 0:56:44.880 --> 0:56:47.280 to just be invited to it, like a dinner party 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:49.600 of some sort, because I didn't want the pressure of 0:56:49.640 --> 0:56:53.120 it a single date. So I she said, oh, the 0:56:53.200 --> 0:56:57.600 first guest is here, and she points just as Jay 0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:00.760 is sitting at the bar and the chairs wheels around, 0:57:00.920 --> 0:57:03.319 and I like, look at him for one second, and 0:57:03.440 --> 0:57:05.480 I don't know why I thought this, but I thought 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:10.719 he looks kind and he looks trustworthy. Ding ding to 0:57:11.200 --> 0:57:14.680 both those boxes. It was like, those are two qualities 0:57:14.920 --> 0:57:18.440 that I just really want in a person. So then 0:57:19.440 --> 0:57:22.400 he walks me with the hostess, walks us to the table. 0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:25.200 Were the first ones there, and suddenly I feel this 0:57:25.360 --> 0:57:29.240 strange feeling of someone helping me with my jacket, and 0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:35.640 even though this is nineteen ninety one, I'm thinking, wait, 0:57:35.680 --> 0:57:38.960 what's happening. He's such a gentleman. I not that I 0:57:39.040 --> 0:57:42.720 cared about those kind of old school manners, but like 0:57:43.040 --> 0:57:46.160 it was, it was just kind of notable in that 0:57:46.240 --> 0:57:48.880 moment that he was helping me take off my jacket 0:57:49.160 --> 0:57:52.000 and he pulled out my chair. I was like, who 0:57:52.040 --> 0:57:56.200 the hell is this a person? And then we proceeded. 0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:59.840 The other people showed up, except none of the three 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:02.080 other women who were supposed to be there for this 0:58:02.120 --> 0:58:06.040 so called dinner party showed up. Mark Stern's wife was 0:58:06.240 --> 0:58:07.960 not you know, she was under the weather, had a 0:58:08.000 --> 0:58:12.080 cold or something. And the two other women who were 0:58:12.080 --> 0:58:14.440 supposed to come to the party didn't show, so it 0:58:14.480 --> 0:58:19.200 was just me, Mark Stern, the host, and bachelor number one, 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:25.800 two and three, And so I was like, okay, but 0:58:26.000 --> 0:58:30.040 I really only had eyes for Jay. I liked him immediately, 0:58:30.080 --> 0:58:34.000 not because of the especially the polite things. Those just 0:58:34.080 --> 0:58:36.760 struck me and stayed with me all these years. But 0:58:36.880 --> 0:58:41.400 because we had such a good conversation, and I loved 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:44.840 that he was, you know, a screenwriter, and that he 0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:48.480 loved movies as much as I did and was obsessed 0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:53.240 with movies and stories. And at one point we shared 0:58:53.280 --> 0:58:56.640 where we went to college and when he went to Stanford. 0:58:56.680 --> 0:59:00.440 And I don't know why. My parents went to Ivy 0:59:00.480 --> 0:59:03.520 League schools, and so it was always a big thing 0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:06.280 going to college in my family. My brother went to 0:59:06.360 --> 0:59:10.240 Yale Um. And so when he said that he went 0:59:10.280 --> 0:59:12.520 to Stanford, it was like the guy at the at 0:59:12.520 --> 0:59:15.640 the fair who goes tries to hit the thing went. 0:59:15.720 --> 0:59:18.439 There was a little ding. I thought, Oh, I love this. 0:59:19.280 --> 0:59:22.880 He's kind of you know, he's into academics, and you know, 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:26.640 I don't know. I just I kind of for him. 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:29.720 You fell for him? Was he instantly into you? I 0:59:29.760 --> 0:59:32.840 don't think so. No, I don't think he was a 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:37.560 good question, Bob. I don't think he. I think he thought, 0:59:37.680 --> 0:59:40.959 well that was interesting, she's nice. We had a great, 0:59:41.080 --> 0:59:47.640 great conversation. But all I know is that, um, how 0:59:47.640 --> 0:59:49.600 did I get his number? Let's see, I might have 0:59:49.720 --> 0:59:53.240 given him my number. I was. I was the rockman 0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:56.480 roll Chick at that time. I guess I think I 0:59:56.560 --> 0:59:59.880 gave him my number. And then I got in my car, 1:00:00.640 --> 1:00:04.840 which at the time had the hard wired phone in it, 1:00:05.440 --> 1:00:07.800 you know, not there were no cell phones, I don't 1:00:07.800 --> 1:00:10.720 think back in ninety one, and I called my mom. 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:15.760 This is very telling, and I said, Mom, I don't 1:00:15.800 --> 1:00:21.160 know why I feel this way that I just think, yeah, 1:00:21.240 --> 1:00:23.640 I think I've met somebody that I don't know. I 1:00:23.680 --> 1:00:28.120 think this is might work here. And so I was right. 1:00:28.880 --> 1:00:33.120 Jay called initially it was right around Thanksgiving, and he said, oh, 1:00:33.160 --> 1:00:36.360 I'm going to visit my parents in Albuquerque, but you know, 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:39.520 let's talk again. And then then he dropped off the 1:00:39.520 --> 1:00:42.520 face of the earth. He just finally. I paced around 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:46.320 for a while and I called Mark Stern and said, 1:00:46.360 --> 1:00:50.320 what's the deal, because he hasn't called you yet. He said, 1:00:50.360 --> 1:00:52.880 I'm going to give him a nudge. So he gave 1:00:52.960 --> 1:00:55.120 him a nudge and then and then we finally went 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:58.160 to see a movie together, and then we went to 1:00:58.200 --> 1:01:01.480 see another movie together. And weirdly, the two movies that 1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:09.680 we saw were both very um One was at the 1:01:09.800 --> 1:01:14.640 Black Robe, so it was about a missionary going to 1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:18.320 somewhere that I can't remember. We'd have to look this up, 1:01:18.840 --> 1:01:22.480 and it was all this sort of like I didn't 1:01:22.480 --> 1:01:24.480 know the content. It was. There was a lot of 1:01:24.520 --> 1:01:29.360 like sexy content in these two movies about missionaries going 1:01:29.400 --> 1:01:32.320 to places. The other one I think was called at 1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:34.680 Play at the Field of the You know, I'll send 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:36.920 you the names of these movies. I can't. I don't 1:01:36.960 --> 1:01:47.400 want to get it wrong. Okay. Had there been any 1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:53.960 long term romances before Jay Um? Yeah, there was. There 1:01:54.040 --> 1:01:57.760 was a long term romance in the Paisley Underground with 1:01:58.400 --> 1:02:05.400 Louis Gutierrez who was in the band. Um. Yeah, there 1:02:05.520 --> 1:02:09.000 was that, and and um, let me think back, there 1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:14.840 was quite a long mace with Lewis, like starting in 1:02:14.880 --> 1:02:18.120 like nineteen eighty two or three when we when we 1:02:18.280 --> 1:02:21.880 when that scene was really happening. And then after that 1:02:22.480 --> 1:02:27.400 there was a long along romance with Donovan Leech, the 1:02:27.440 --> 1:02:31.200 son of Donovan, And prior to that, I'd had a 1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:35.280 relationship with David Roebeck. They were all they're all musicians. 1:02:35.720 --> 1:02:39.000 That's right now that they're doing the math on that. Okay, 1:02:39.120 --> 1:02:41.720 that maybe that and no no offense to any of 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:46.040 the musicians, but maybe that's why maybe that collective amount 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:50.200 of relationships there um added up to me thinking maybe 1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:54.800 maybe not a musician. I don't know. But also, um, 1:02:54.880 --> 1:02:58.600 there were a few actors and I and yeah, there 1:02:58.640 --> 1:03:02.880 are actors and musicians up until Jay. What was it 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:06.520 like being famous and on the road as a woman, 1:03:07.040 --> 1:03:12.120 both in terms of romance and me too? Stuff? Ah, 1:03:12.400 --> 1:03:17.400 interesting and say it again on the road? Okay? You 1:03:17.440 --> 1:03:20.960 know in that era, certainly pre cell phone, one of 1:03:20.960 --> 1:03:25.080 the reason musicians wanted to become musicians, to be famous 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:28.920 is to experience the Shenanigans of the road. What was 1:03:28.960 --> 1:03:31.600 it like being a woman and in your case it 1:03:31.680 --> 1:03:33.680 was a band of women as opposed to some other 1:03:33.720 --> 1:03:39.560 acts there was a female front person. And then right, well, um, 1:03:42.440 --> 1:03:48.000 I had mostly good experiences unless I blocked things out. 1:03:50.880 --> 1:03:54.400 I seem to always be or most of the time 1:03:54.480 --> 1:04:01.800 I was involved in a relationship. I'm going way back here. 1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:07.520 I feel like I've always kind of had my wits 1:04:07.560 --> 1:04:11.280 about me, you know, in a sense, if that expression 1:04:12.160 --> 1:04:17.680 is the right one, because I felt quite vulnerable just 1:04:17.800 --> 1:04:24.600 due to my stature, physical stature. I've always had my 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:28.360 eye out for anything that felt like ding ding ding, danger, 1:04:28.480 --> 1:04:34.000 approaching so I think that I got through that period 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:40.240 pretty well. I skated through. But I do feel like 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:45.880 as a female in an all girl band, I did 1:04:45.960 --> 1:04:53.000 feel a sense that, say, as an example, walking into 1:04:53.080 --> 1:04:59.200 a record company and having a lineup of male executives 1:04:59.200 --> 1:05:04.280 and suits looking at you. Um I, you know, of course, 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:10.200 I felt like, oh god, you know, is this am 1:05:10.200 --> 1:05:16.400 I being judged? Am I? Am? I? Is there some 1:05:17.360 --> 1:05:23.960 imperative for me to be to look to dress the 1:05:24.120 --> 1:05:30.040 part of a sexy rock star? Or you know I 1:05:30.040 --> 1:05:33.000 I you know, I still grapple with that, you know, 1:05:33.200 --> 1:05:36.960 even as we age too. It's like it's it's there's 1:05:37.000 --> 1:05:39.960 an aspect of being in the in the limelight, I 1:05:40.000 --> 1:05:45.640 guess you could say, or um, a performer where there's 1:05:45.680 --> 1:05:48.760 a natural aspect where the sexuality is part of it. 1:05:48.880 --> 1:05:51.200 Let's just face it. It's part of rock and roll 1:05:51.280 --> 1:05:54.880 for both for all sexes, you know, for all genders 1:05:54.880 --> 1:06:00.920 and all there's just rock and roll is most often 1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:04.440 imbued with sex and sexuality. So it's it makes it 1:06:04.560 --> 1:06:08.280 very It's very complex, Bob, That's what I think. It's 1:06:08.280 --> 1:06:12.360 a complex thing. But I do think that there's a parallel. 1:06:12.360 --> 1:06:14.600 In my book, I was able to kind of recall 1:06:14.760 --> 1:06:18.640 that feeling of like I've got to put on I've 1:06:18.680 --> 1:06:23.160 got to become her. I've got to I've got to 1:06:23.200 --> 1:06:26.560 be someone who's confident and who can tap into the 1:06:26.800 --> 1:06:32.080 natural sexuality that's sort of vibrating under the surface. That 1:06:32.440 --> 1:06:39.600 that's part of what this music is about. You know. Um, 1:06:39.680 --> 1:06:42.760 it's definitely a part of making music and performing music. 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:45.440 I can be honest with you. It's it definitely, and 1:06:45.440 --> 1:06:48.479 that's why I love it. I mean, who doesn't love 1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:52.760 being lost in that feeling. Let's just go back a 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:58.560 second to Jay. You reference being a nice Jewish girl earlier, 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:02.880 and Jay was Jewish according to the information online. Whatever 1:07:02.920 --> 1:07:05.200 that's worth it. He converted? Can you tell us all 1:07:05.200 --> 1:07:09.200 about that? Yes, he did, He did ultimately convert. I 1:07:09.240 --> 1:07:13.720 am the granddaughter of a rabbi who's no longer with us, 1:07:13.760 --> 1:07:18.320 But my dream was to be married by my grandpa 1:07:18.360 --> 1:07:21.400 and my uncle, who are both rabbis on the Simon's 1:07:21.440 --> 1:07:25.840 side of my family, and in order for that to 1:07:26.000 --> 1:07:33.160 really happen, Jay was totally fine and was happy to 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:37.640 It was a very easy conversion. It was made easy 1:07:37.680 --> 1:07:39.880 by the fact that my mother could teach him a 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:44.320 few things. He didn't have to go through months of lessons, 1:07:44.920 --> 1:07:47.520 and he learned just what he needed to learn. And 1:07:47.720 --> 1:07:53.440 my grandpa, Ralph Simon also gave Jason tutorials and it 1:07:53.520 --> 1:07:57.320 was a very quick and easy. Becoming Jewish was not 1:07:57.400 --> 1:08:00.320 a big thing. It was the family made it very 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:04.040 easy for him, and it meant it meant a lot 1:08:04.080 --> 1:08:06.560 to me. I get a little chair choked up to 1:08:06.840 --> 1:08:11.160 thinking back on my grandpa marrying me and my uncle. 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:16.960 It was a beautiful thing. And to what degree were 1:08:17.000 --> 1:08:22.160 you observed? Did your kids have bar mitzvahs, etcetera, etcetera. Um, 1:08:22.680 --> 1:08:28.120 not particularly observant. Mostly just for me, it's always been 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:36.000 part of my identity, my jewishness. The boys didn't really have. 1:08:36.360 --> 1:08:39.920 I had a bat mitzvah in Israel. My older brother 1:08:40.040 --> 1:08:45.480 John is only a year older. So we went in 1:08:45.600 --> 1:08:48.759 nineteen seventy two, in nineteen seventy four, but I think 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:51.360 my brother would have been, Yeah, he would have been. 1:08:52.240 --> 1:08:54.200 I think it was seventy two. We just went to 1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:59.719 the whaling wall. He read out a little phonetically spelled 1:08:59.760 --> 1:09:04.640 out a prayer and then at the whaling wall and 1:09:04.720 --> 1:09:07.400 we all watched that, and nobody was sitting there with 1:09:07.479 --> 1:09:10.360 iPhones filming it. By the way, it was like the 1:09:10.479 --> 1:09:13.680 dark ages before pre cell phones. And then we went 1:09:13.720 --> 1:09:16.599 to the King David Hotel in Jerusalem and we had 1:09:16.600 --> 1:09:19.880 a big luncheon with my grandparents and then I did 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:23.400 the Hamotzi prayer over the bread, which I never forgot, 1:09:24.080 --> 1:09:28.360 and that was my bot mitzvah, and our kids have not. 1:09:28.560 --> 1:09:32.240 Although I had this funny idea, I don't want anybody 1:09:32.280 --> 1:09:34.280 to steal it because I think it's pretty funny, but 1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:36.960 I'll share it with you that we you know, how 1:09:37.000 --> 1:09:40.519 you can throw a surprise party for someone's birthday. I 1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:43.160 wanted to do. I had this fantasy of throwing a 1:09:43.280 --> 1:09:47.439 surprise bar mitzvah for my two kids and do it 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:51.479 similarly simply, where they just have to read the odd 1:09:51.520 --> 1:09:55.040 prayer phonetically spelled out and they just walk in the 1:09:55.040 --> 1:09:57.639 door one day and everyone would be there, it's your 1:09:57.680 --> 1:10:01.080 bar mitzvah, and the boys would read it and we'd 1:10:01.120 --> 1:10:03.720 have someone officiating and that would be it. They were 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:07.439 both par misfit. Speaking of your two kids, what are 1:10:07.439 --> 1:10:13.680 they up to? So? Jackson Roach is a podcast in 1:10:13.720 --> 1:10:16.760 the podcast world. It's he has been in love with 1:10:17.479 --> 1:10:21.680 radio storytelling. Radio play since he was a kid and 1:10:21.840 --> 1:10:26.040 also has been like a tremendous reader. He just loves 1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:31.400 fiction too, like his mom. And so he has done. 1:10:31.439 --> 1:10:34.719 He produced and wrote a show that was got on radio, 1:10:34.840 --> 1:10:37.800 that got on Radio Lab and ninety nine percent Invisible. 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:41.439 Now he's working for a podcast company called the Dig, 1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:45.439 so he's immersed in creating podcast and in that world. 1:10:45.720 --> 1:10:49.439 And then my younger son, Sam Roach, he is a 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:55.000 screenwriter and actor. And where did they go to college? 1:10:55.120 --> 1:10:59.880 They both went to Stanford. That okay, so they have 1:11:00.160 --> 1:11:03.439 that pedigree. Let's go back to the Bengals era. To 1:11:03.600 --> 1:11:06.240 what degree were you and the other women in the 1:11:06.280 --> 1:11:11.839 act involved in drugs and alcohol back in that period? Well, 1:11:11.880 --> 1:11:14.400 I liked a little bit of the white wine back then. 1:11:14.640 --> 1:11:18.439 I don't drink at all now I don't think. I 1:11:18.479 --> 1:11:20.680 actually don't know if i'd have written the book if 1:11:20.720 --> 1:11:23.240 I still did. I didn't have what I would consider 1:11:23.320 --> 1:11:25.880 a problem. But I liked it and it just was 1:11:25.920 --> 1:11:29.599 a nice relaxing thing to do. But I one day 1:11:29.600 --> 1:11:31.479 I just thought, what would life be like if I 1:11:31.560 --> 1:11:35.320 didn't have that wine, you know, at six o'clock every 1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:40.800 night or however whenever, Um gosh, I'm being so confessional 1:11:40.880 --> 1:11:43.360 with you, Bob, I hope it's okay. Is everything? This 1:11:43.439 --> 1:11:47.880 is exactly what I'm looking for. Stuff Okay, good, I 1:11:48.280 --> 1:11:54.719 figured as much. But so um, No, the Bengals were 1:11:55.000 --> 1:11:58.840 quite We liked the odd drink. We would have, you know, 1:11:59.479 --> 1:12:02.360 a glass the wine before going on stage or not. 1:12:02.600 --> 1:12:07.200 You know, it depended. I'm speaking mostly for myself, but 1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:14.040 afterwards for sure, And yeah, I think it was. But 1:12:14.120 --> 1:12:18.040 I don't think we were out of control. We were not. 1:12:18.120 --> 1:12:20.280 It was it was not. Let me put it this way. 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:25.080 It wasn't an issue. Nobody had to go. There were 1:12:25.120 --> 1:12:29.040 no trips to rehab in our band. We're very lucky 1:12:29.120 --> 1:12:32.040 that way. We just we just enjoyed a little bit 1:12:32.080 --> 1:12:36.599 of wine from on the road. But it wasn't beyond that. 1:12:37.360 --> 1:12:42.599 Speaking of the Bengals, although the Go Gos were maybe 1:12:42.640 --> 1:12:46.720 the progenitors, the Bengals actually had more hits than the 1:12:46.760 --> 1:12:49.280 Go Gos. The Go Gos are in the Rock and 1:12:49.360 --> 1:12:51.519 Roll Hall of Fame. I'm not a big believer in 1:12:51.560 --> 1:12:53.400 the rock and Roll Hall of Fame, but I bring 1:12:53.400 --> 1:12:55.400 it up. If the Go Goes are in the rock 1:12:55.479 --> 1:12:58.240 and Roll Hall of Fame, shouldn't the Bengals be in 1:12:58.280 --> 1:13:02.040 the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Well, I I 1:13:02.080 --> 1:13:06.360 think that would be very nice. I don't, I don't 1:13:08.080 --> 1:13:10.400 What's what am I trying to say? It would be 1:13:12.800 --> 1:13:15.880 very fun, I think to get inducted in the Rock 1:13:15.920 --> 1:13:18.599 and Roll Hall of Fame. I say this partly because 1:13:18.720 --> 1:13:24.880 I inducted the Zombies and I had no idea what 1:13:24.920 --> 1:13:27.880 it would be like to be there among peers in 1:13:27.920 --> 1:13:32.080 the music business. But that experience, because I love the 1:13:32.160 --> 1:13:35.840 Zombies so much and I was so honored to be 1:13:36.040 --> 1:13:40.840 asked to even you know, to be asked to induct them, 1:13:41.320 --> 1:13:45.120 that I had one of the best nights of my 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:49.000 life at that show because I just ran into all 1:13:49.000 --> 1:13:52.799 these musicians that I hadn't seen. Brian May from Queen 1:13:53.200 --> 1:13:57.280 the Bengals opened for Queen and at Slane Castle in 1:13:57.439 --> 1:14:00.480 nineteen eighty six. I think it was one of Freddie's 1:14:00.720 --> 1:14:05.920 Mercury's last show with them, or last show, and it 1:14:06.040 --> 1:14:08.599 might have been we'd have to do some fact checking. 1:14:08.680 --> 1:14:13.599 But to just reconnect with Brian May and then um, 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:16.960 to be with the Zombies and to meet all the 1:14:17.000 --> 1:14:22.840 other to read John Taylor was there who hadn't seen 1:14:23.720 --> 1:14:26.759 There was a really fun party that Stevie Nicks threw 1:14:26.840 --> 1:14:29.280 and I got to hang out with Simon Lebon and 1:14:29.400 --> 1:14:31.880 John who hadn't seen in years because they I think 1:14:31.920 --> 1:14:34.639 they inducted. Okay, now I'm forgetting, but we can look 1:14:34.680 --> 1:14:42.160 it up. It was just a magical night and mostly 1:14:43.200 --> 1:14:48.320 just to celebrate music. So yeah, I mean, I yeah, 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:50.240 I don't know how to. I don't have a last check. 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:52.720 Let me let me change the question a little bit. 1:14:52.720 --> 1:14:54.680 Do you feel a little ripped off that they're in 1:14:54.720 --> 1:14:57.640 and you're not in? Oh? No, no, no, I'm not 1:14:57.760 --> 1:15:02.679 like that. No No. I went also, um to see 1:15:02.720 --> 1:15:07.559 their induction because I was again invited to because because 1:15:07.600 --> 1:15:10.880 I'm so close with the Go Goes. So um No, 1:15:11.200 --> 1:15:18.960 it was incredible, Like not at all. No, I'm just yeah, 1:15:18.960 --> 1:15:21.800 that's not that's not how my I'm not that Yeah, 1:15:21.840 --> 1:15:24.519 that's not that's not where I go with those things. Yeah, 1:15:24.960 --> 1:15:27.840 you mentioned how much you love the Zombies. You talked 1:15:27.840 --> 1:15:34.160 about exchanging uh playlists with Nick Hornby. So how did 1:15:34.160 --> 1:15:41.400 your interest in music begin into what degree? Was an infatuation? Well, 1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:45.080 let's start with that second part. It's always been an 1:15:45.080 --> 1:15:49.080 infatuation and per my mother, who loves music as much 1:15:49.080 --> 1:15:53.559 as I did and played the AM radio and had 1:15:54.000 --> 1:15:57.519 bought records all the time, played it constantly, and claims 1:15:57.600 --> 1:16:01.280 that that when I was born, I was in this 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:05.080 little crib, and for that period of time in the crib, 1:16:05.320 --> 1:16:08.240 she had the music playing and that I would cool 1:16:08.280 --> 1:16:11.040 along to it, and it was in a room with 1:16:11.520 --> 1:16:13.840 a floor that it had wheels on it or something 1:16:13.880 --> 1:16:17.439 that she'd find that I sort of bopped around to 1:16:17.520 --> 1:16:20.639 it as a baby, and I was so like turned 1:16:20.680 --> 1:16:23.880 on by the music. I was so activated by it. 1:16:24.240 --> 1:16:27.080 And then as soon as and then growing up in 1:16:27.200 --> 1:16:28.960 La you're in the car, you're in the backseat of 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:32.759 the station Reagan, and my mom was always blasting AM radio. 1:16:33.160 --> 1:16:38.280 So I was teaching myself to sing first well, from 1:16:38.280 --> 1:16:41.320 the crib, if she's right about that might be an exaggeration, 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:44.800 the backseat of the car and when the radio was on. 1:16:44.920 --> 1:16:48.360 And then the minute I started buying records, or my 1:16:48.400 --> 1:16:52.080 mom would buy records for me, I would play them continuously, 1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:55.920 and then I would teach myself the exact moves and 1:16:57.520 --> 1:17:01.439 nuances that the singers were giving their performance. I just 1:17:01.560 --> 1:17:05.360 studied them without knowing that I was studying them. I mean, 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:07.920 this is true of a lot of singers I've met 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:14.040 and had this conversation with Joni Mitchell Records, Linda Ronstadt Records. 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:18.880 Now having worked with Peter Asher, those childhood memories resonate 1:17:19.040 --> 1:17:25.000 even more. But just learning the like mimicking that them, 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:28.720 actually trying to mimic every one of their little swoops 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:35.120 and growls and moves vocally. How did you decide you 1:17:35.160 --> 1:17:38.479 wanted to be a musician, Well, it was just a passion. 1:17:38.640 --> 1:17:41.920 I mean, I don't know that I ever thought of 1:17:42.000 --> 1:17:45.840 any other career path besides being in the arts, for sure, 1:17:46.400 --> 1:17:48.920 because I was always painting and drawing. I was around 1:17:48.920 --> 1:17:51.719 my mother painting and drawing and sculpting all the time too, 1:17:51.760 --> 1:17:55.040 and my dad being a psychoanalyst. He was just a 1:17:55.080 --> 1:17:57.599 cool presence in the house who was so open minded 1:17:57.600 --> 1:18:02.639 about everything and so so cool. Let me just say 1:18:02.640 --> 1:18:08.559 that cool parents. But it Singing was just a part 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:12.439 of my life from childhood. So it was as soon 1:18:12.479 --> 1:18:15.639 as my uncle, my mother's younger brother, put a guitar 1:18:15.720 --> 1:18:19.840 in my hands. You know. Again, everything that I've done 1:18:19.840 --> 1:18:22.200 in the arts has pretty much been self taught. I'm 1:18:22.200 --> 1:18:24.800 embarrassed to say I don't read music. I really should. 1:18:26.000 --> 1:18:28.400 What's wrong with me. I don't know, but I just 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:30.479 never got round to it. I think I was always 1:18:30.520 --> 1:18:33.640 so impulsive about it, like teach me the chords of 1:18:33.680 --> 1:18:36.719 that song, and I would just I just know the chords. 1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:38.600 It's not like I can read a musical chart, and 1:18:38.640 --> 1:18:41.200 I would just try to figure out how to play 1:18:41.240 --> 1:18:44.880 a song that way. And like compared to hanging out 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:49.800 with Peter Asher, who's so are youdite when it comes 1:18:49.840 --> 1:18:52.559 to music and has all the charts there, and I 1:18:52.600 --> 1:18:55.680 see them reading the charts and I'm like, yeah, what 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:58.200 are the chords? I can do it that way? Folk 1:18:58.439 --> 1:19:02.599 folk folk style and sharing. For me, it was people 1:19:02.640 --> 1:19:06.000 sharing their recipes like that's what That's what it was 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:12.120 to learn a song. Um. Yeah, am I answering your question? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Uh. 1:19:12.360 --> 1:19:15.280 Did you play in bands or play live alone in 1:19:15.400 --> 1:19:19.760 high school? Um? I did more dance and theater and 1:19:20.320 --> 1:19:24.280 dancing and acting in high school. I was always in 1:19:24.320 --> 1:19:29.640 the musicals. I would play with friends on the schoolyard occasionally. 1:19:29.760 --> 1:19:35.680 I definitely had other friends like me who could play, 1:19:36.000 --> 1:19:39.719 you know, maybe various songs on the guitar. I was singing, 1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:42.160 for sure, but I don't know if I and I 1:19:42.200 --> 1:19:44.880 was in the musicals, but I don't think I ever 1:19:45.080 --> 1:19:49.639 sang like in a school concert like my own stuff. 1:19:49.680 --> 1:19:53.479 I was in the choir. But yeah, the stuff that 1:19:53.520 --> 1:19:55.920 I really cared most about was the stuff I would 1:19:55.960 --> 1:19:59.599 just do with my friends. Nobody really heard it besides us. 1:20:00.360 --> 1:20:04.240 What about in college? In college, let's see, I was 1:20:04.280 --> 1:20:08.840 a dance major, A drama dance major. I must have 1:20:08.920 --> 1:20:11.759 had a guitar up there. I was obsessed with music 1:20:11.800 --> 1:20:15.080 in college. I remember we had eight tracks. Was that 1:20:15.120 --> 1:20:22.599 when eight tracks where? Absolutely? Yeah, I definitely. I'm trying 1:20:22.600 --> 1:20:25.040 to remember if I had I debt what? Oh? Part 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:28.320 way through college, absolutely I was with David Roeback. I 1:20:28.360 --> 1:20:31.479 was still back on that story of the first year 1:20:31.520 --> 1:20:34.360 when I was in the dorm. Oh yeah, no. Starting 1:20:34.479 --> 1:20:37.840 after the year in the dorm, I was playing music, 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:43.559 but not publicly, just for myself. And you graduate then 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:47.519 would then? I? Okay? So I went to see the 1:20:47.560 --> 1:20:50.600 Sex Pistols, and at winter Lamba Room I went to 1:20:50.640 --> 1:20:54.920 see Patti Smith. So during college and during the David 1:20:55.080 --> 1:20:57.960 Roeback period of college, which was the second half my 1:20:58.840 --> 1:21:05.799 junior and senior year, I was totally immersed in making art, painting, sculpture, singing, 1:21:06.080 --> 1:21:10.400 recording music with David on little cassettes, going to see shows, 1:21:10.560 --> 1:21:16.120 going to San Francisco, going to the punk clubs. Yeah, 1:21:16.200 --> 1:21:22.719 that's that. Music became the big headline. And my dream 1:21:22.880 --> 1:21:25.519 was to come back to LA and either be in 1:21:25.520 --> 1:21:29.040 the band with David Roeback whatever that we were just 1:21:29.120 --> 1:21:31.599 a duo at that point, to create a band with him, 1:21:32.080 --> 1:21:35.280 and then when that didn't work out because the relationship 1:21:35.360 --> 1:21:40.559 was kind of rocky, I realized that I needed to 1:21:40.600 --> 1:21:42.800 do it some other way. So I just started to 1:21:42.840 --> 1:21:49.200 adversisise myself in the recycler and I drew because I 1:21:49.240 --> 1:21:53.680 was still kind of post art school I was. I 1:21:53.680 --> 1:21:56.439 would draw all these flyers and xerox them at a 1:21:56.560 --> 1:22:00.680 xerox place and pat put them at reck stores. And 1:22:00.760 --> 1:22:03.240 I took a stack of my flyers to the Gogs 1:22:03.240 --> 1:22:06.040 show at the Whiskey of Go Go and they got 1:22:06.040 --> 1:22:08.040 thrown in the trash. I had to dig them out 1:22:08.080 --> 1:22:10.840 a few times. Then I gave up. Yeah, I was 1:22:10.920 --> 1:22:14.200 like an old school Okay, these were flyers saying I 1:22:14.240 --> 1:22:16.720 want to start a band, yeah, and I can send 1:22:16.840 --> 1:22:20.080 there's some of them are online. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:23.320 hand drawn flyers that I made let's go back to 1:22:23.400 --> 1:22:27.280 David Roebeck. What came first? The music of the romance? Oh? 1:22:27.360 --> 1:22:30.000 That well, we were he was. He was my brother's 1:22:30.120 --> 1:22:32.719 best friend growing up, so we went to high school together. 1:22:32.760 --> 1:22:39.920 He was a grade older than me. Um. Wow, that's 1:22:39.920 --> 1:22:43.240 a good question. At one point my brother wasn't too 1:22:43.280 --> 1:22:47.519 happy about it. A romance bloomed. But I think I 1:22:47.600 --> 1:22:50.360 was in college already. Yeah, no, it would have been 1:22:50.400 --> 1:22:55.360 in college. It would have been in college because yeah, 1:22:56.120 --> 1:22:59.480 you also do you also go to Berkeley. He transferred 1:22:59.520 --> 1:23:02.559 to Berkeley. He started out at a college called Carlton 1:23:02.640 --> 1:23:06.120 College in Minnesota, and he started there in seventy five. 1:23:06.240 --> 1:23:10.480 I started Berkeley in seventy six, and then he transferred. 1:23:12.920 --> 1:23:17.960 It had probably been seventy seven seventy eight that around 1:23:18.040 --> 1:23:21.880 the time he transferred, and then we eventually lived together 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:27.400 at Berkeley. Did he transfer to be with you? I 1:23:27.760 --> 1:23:33.120 may partly? I think maybe? So. How hard was it 1:23:33.160 --> 1:23:41.760 when you broke up? Not only romance wise but musically. Okay, 1:23:41.760 --> 1:23:45.360 we're taking a long time ago. I'm sure tears were 1:23:45.400 --> 1:23:51.439 shed and emotions were felt deeply. It was hard, I 1:23:51.479 --> 1:23:53.960 think because I loved the vibe of what David and 1:23:54.000 --> 1:23:56.599 I were doing. I mean, we would play like Little 1:23:56.640 --> 1:23:59.840 Honda by the Beach Boys, but Mazzie Star style, if 1:23:59.840 --> 1:24:03.360 you can try to picture that like sort of droney 1:24:03.760 --> 1:24:10.800 and slowed down and kind of etherial, you know, and 1:24:12.360 --> 1:24:15.960 you know, of course we love The Velvet Underground. I think, um, 1:24:16.520 --> 1:24:19.720 my recordings that I made with David of I'll be 1:24:19.760 --> 1:24:22.600 your mirror and I'll keep it with mine, which was 1:24:22.640 --> 1:24:27.679 the Nico song from her record that was produced by um. 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:32.760 Oh my god, I'm having a a senior momentum guy 1:24:32.800 --> 1:24:35.360 from Guy from the Velvet Underground. Now I can't remember 1:24:36.760 --> 1:24:42.479 there it is there, it is, thank you. Um. Those 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:47.360 were like seminal records for me and still are, I think. 1:24:47.439 --> 1:24:51.559 So I'm really glad that finally on my Spotify you 1:24:51.560 --> 1:24:53.960 can find those recordings. I'll keep it with mine and 1:24:54.000 --> 1:24:59.080 I'll be your mirror. U. So yeah, I mean, David, 1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:02.400 until he passed away, has been a close family friend, 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:07.719 close with my parents, close with my brother John, who 1:25:08.439 --> 1:25:10.599 they were in the same grade. They were best friends 1:25:11.280 --> 1:25:22.000 and such a special person. So you talk about exchanging 1:25:22.120 --> 1:25:26.200 playlists with Nick Hornby. Is this new music or is 1:25:26.200 --> 1:25:31.160 this music throughout rock history? Just throughout rock history, just 1:25:31.240 --> 1:25:38.040 stuff that he's his listening practice. His discovery practice of 1:25:38.920 --> 1:25:45.040 finding stuff is like well honed. Mine is haphazard. I 1:25:45.160 --> 1:25:49.320 have a tradition of sending links to my family, we 1:25:49.400 --> 1:25:53.040 share links all the time, and friends and sharing playlists 1:25:53.040 --> 1:25:57.160 that I've made. But Nick's blow all those out of 1:25:57.160 --> 1:26:02.840 the water. I mean he is a master curator of playlists, 1:26:02.840 --> 1:26:06.320 and some are thematic and some are more of a jumble. 1:26:06.439 --> 1:26:09.840 But like it's a gift. Yeah, I mean, because I'm 1:26:09.880 --> 1:26:14.639 finding all sorts of new artists that way, he's he's 1:26:14.680 --> 1:26:21.120 more tapped into new music. And to what degree are 1:26:21.120 --> 1:26:24.559 you listening to new music as opposed to the old music? Well, 1:26:24.600 --> 1:26:27.400 I tend to default to the oldies. But because I 1:26:27.439 --> 1:26:32.160 have playlists that friends have been sending me with newer artists, 1:26:32.160 --> 1:26:36.840 it's been a great way to crack open that, you know, 1:26:37.040 --> 1:26:40.519 that side of things, and to have exposure. The other 1:26:40.560 --> 1:26:44.360 person who, like Nick Hornby, is great at discovering new 1:26:44.400 --> 1:26:47.559 stuff is Peter Asher, and he's the one who turned 1:26:47.600 --> 1:26:50.760 me onto Holly Humberstone. Did we already talk about this 1:26:50.880 --> 1:26:58.759 or recycling back? So Holly Hush, Joe Joy odellacum adela 1:26:58.800 --> 1:27:01.160 cum I always pronounced it ode locum, but I think 1:27:01.160 --> 1:27:04.200 I have it the emphasis and is meant to be 1:27:04.360 --> 1:27:08.120 on the other syllables. If you've got her song, if 1:27:08.120 --> 1:27:10.200 you've got a problem, it is just extraordinary. And it 1:27:10.280 --> 1:27:14.880 was a pleasure to sing. Yeah. And then you know, 1:27:15.320 --> 1:27:18.360 I don't know. I think it was Peter who had 1:27:18.040 --> 1:27:22.880 the cool idea of covering a Billie Eilish song that 1:27:22.960 --> 1:27:25.479 was great. Of course I knew about Billie Eilish, but 1:27:25.600 --> 1:27:28.680 I didn't know that song. So I really owe a 1:27:28.760 --> 1:27:32.320 lot to Peter for opening my eyes too and my ears. 1:27:32.520 --> 1:27:37.200 I should say to these some of these young artists 1:27:37.240 --> 1:27:41.000 that I hadn't crossed paths with on my Spotify or 1:27:41.000 --> 1:27:44.559 on my streaming searches. So how did you end up 1:27:44.560 --> 1:27:49.040 making a record with Peter Rasher? Well, it was kind 1:27:49.040 --> 1:27:52.280 of the dark days of the pandemic. It was ninth 1:27:52.600 --> 1:27:59.240 sorry nineteen. It was two thousand twenty one when I 1:27:59.320 --> 1:28:02.759 got an I heard a voicemail that I had missed 1:28:02.960 --> 1:28:07.880 from the day before from my longtime road manager, John Kollachi. 1:28:08.680 --> 1:28:12.640 That word was that Peter Asher wanted to make a 1:28:12.680 --> 1:28:15.759 record with me. And it was such a dark period 1:28:16.320 --> 1:28:20.400 right then, and I it was like sunshine burst through 1:28:20.439 --> 1:28:24.519 the clouds. In that moment, I was practically trembling, and 1:28:24.600 --> 1:28:27.640 I kept listening over and over again to that, to 1:28:27.800 --> 1:28:30.880 that voicemail Peter Asher wants to make a record with me. 1:28:31.479 --> 1:28:35.400 I could hardly believe my ears. So then then the 1:28:35.479 --> 1:28:41.160 communication started, and um, you know, we we connected. I 1:28:41.280 --> 1:28:46.720 drove out to Peter's home in Malibu and was welcomed 1:28:46.720 --> 1:28:50.479 in by his family. I at that point I gave him, 1:28:50.520 --> 1:28:53.320 like I think, I mentioned a manuscript printed out and 1:28:54.280 --> 1:28:57.599 from my computer printer, m from I should say, my printer, 1:28:57.760 --> 1:29:00.760 and for him to read of the book. He read 1:29:00.800 --> 1:29:03.760 it really quickly. There was an instant bond. I was, 1:29:04.160 --> 1:29:07.320 you know, in awe of him as a producer and 1:29:07.320 --> 1:29:09.839 and but then got to know him as a dear friend. 1:29:09.880 --> 1:29:14.680 And I just cherished that relationship so much. Well, if 1:29:14.680 --> 1:29:17.280 you've got to make a record, it costs money. Where 1:29:17.280 --> 1:29:21.679 did the money come from? Well, I'm I'm I don't 1:29:21.680 --> 1:29:24.639 know what what happened in my life, but I just 1:29:24.720 --> 1:29:29.240 hit a point where I realized that the indie spirit 1:29:29.360 --> 1:29:34.719 that fueled everything that had come in, starting with the Bengals, 1:29:34.800 --> 1:29:38.080 or even the attempt set a band with David Roebak 1:29:38.200 --> 1:29:43.080 that didn't necessarily come to fruition. I remember going I'm 1:29:43.160 --> 1:29:46.600 digressing for one second here. I remember going to a 1:29:46.760 --> 1:29:50.479 night of the women of Berkeley, an event at a 1:29:50.520 --> 1:29:53.600 dear friend's house to get everybody together, and everybody was 1:29:53.960 --> 1:29:59.480 reminiscing about graduating and how they came upon their careers, 1:29:59.680 --> 1:30:03.200 and many of them had gone to the jobs office 1:30:04.000 --> 1:30:07.200 at Berkeley to talk about ways to start a career. 1:30:07.400 --> 1:30:10.639 And I remember thinking when they came around the circle 1:30:10.640 --> 1:30:14.360 of everyone telling those stories to about how they got 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:17.360 their jobs, I was like, they're what. I couldn't exactly 1:30:17.400 --> 1:30:20.519 work walk into the Job's office at Berkeley and say, 1:30:20.880 --> 1:30:23.519 I want to start a band? What what what do 1:30:23.520 --> 1:30:28.120 you got for me? You know? So so yeah, I've 1:30:28.160 --> 1:30:31.679 always I've always done all these things on sheer will 1:30:32.720 --> 1:30:38.280 and maybe a little bit of insanity, but um, I 1:30:38.320 --> 1:30:41.320 was possessed with the idea of starting a band. I'll 1:30:41.360 --> 1:30:43.680 just say it. I was. I was impassioned at the 1:30:43.720 --> 1:30:45.639 thought of it, and I just had to go out 1:30:45.640 --> 1:30:49.479 there and keep knocking on doors, you know, so to 1:30:49.560 --> 1:30:53.720 speak to find people. So that's why I made the Flyers. 1:30:53.960 --> 1:30:59.040 I I looked at ads in the newspaper pre internet, 1:30:59.120 --> 1:31:02.760 so there was recycler I was looking for. And then 1:31:02.800 --> 1:31:06.280 I called one of the ads and lo and behold 1:31:06.360 --> 1:31:09.439 Vicki Peterson answered it was an ad, not from her, 1:31:09.560 --> 1:31:15.040 it was their roommate. And that's how that started. Okay, 1:31:15.080 --> 1:31:19.320 And in this interim graduating from college, did you have 1:31:19.360 --> 1:31:23.120 a day job? Yes, I did, as a matter of fact. 1:31:23.160 --> 1:31:29.559 So my uncle Carmy Simon, my mother's youngest brother. He 1:31:30.120 --> 1:31:33.200 was an incredible musician who was the first person who 1:31:33.200 --> 1:31:35.800 gave me that guitar that I'm holding in the picture 1:31:35.840 --> 1:31:38.560 of myself. When I was eight or seven. I was 1:31:38.600 --> 1:31:42.640 either finishing up year seven or just eight, because it 1:31:42.640 --> 1:31:49.799 says January nineteen sixty seven on the picture. He offered 1:31:49.840 --> 1:31:51.800 me a job out of college. It was kind of 1:31:51.880 --> 1:31:54.639 it was like a factory girl job, if you can imagine. 1:31:54.640 --> 1:31:57.559 It was in a warehouse in Santa Monica where he 1:31:57.680 --> 1:32:00.400 had a little ceramics company, and it was all the 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:03.360 rage at that time to make these like little hand 1:32:03.400 --> 1:32:09.280 painted ceramic buttons and jewelry and stuff and not exactly 1:32:09.320 --> 1:32:14.040 like pottery. So I sat in the basement room alone 1:32:14.280 --> 1:32:19.320 with a transistor radio which I had tuned to k 1:32:19.479 --> 1:32:22.040 Earth one oh one, which in the eighties was playing 1:32:22.160 --> 1:32:26.040 nineteen sixties music, and that's what how I spent my 1:32:26.160 --> 1:32:29.759 time for the most part during my day job. Every 1:32:29.800 --> 1:32:32.680 once in a while i'd go upstairs where there was sunshine, 1:32:32.680 --> 1:32:34.479 but most of the time I was in the dark 1:32:34.520 --> 1:32:39.040 with the radio. And I heard that song. I had 1:32:39.080 --> 1:32:42.960 already met Vicking Debbi through the recycler. They'd come over. 1:32:43.080 --> 1:32:47.320 We'd had that fateful testing out of the waters where 1:32:48.680 --> 1:32:52.000 we determined we should be a band that night, and 1:32:53.520 --> 1:32:56.400 I heard I heard Hazy Shaded Winter. I know that 1:32:56.560 --> 1:32:59.640 when I was still at the I was that that 1:32:59.760 --> 1:33:03.240 day job for a while. It wasn't until things started 1:33:03.360 --> 1:33:07.559 kicking off for the Bengals, because I remember hearing Hazy 1:33:07.560 --> 1:33:10.800 Shaded Winter and not knowing that Simon and garfuncle Fan 1:33:10.880 --> 1:33:13.400 and I thought I knew all their music, and I 1:33:13.560 --> 1:33:16.840 pitched it at rehearsal, and then we didn't record it 1:33:16.880 --> 1:33:20.120 for years. And Robert Hilburn, the local journalist, gave it 1:33:20.160 --> 1:33:24.559 a really crap review. Specifically, he said it was plotting 1:33:24.600 --> 1:33:29.320 and listless or something like that. That's okay, he's entitled 1:33:29.320 --> 1:33:33.160 to his opinion. How did you ultimately give up the 1:33:33.240 --> 1:33:36.920 day job? Oh well, that was m let's see what 1:33:37.920 --> 1:33:41.519 got me past the day job? Oh? You know what, 1:33:42.040 --> 1:33:46.799 I think we finally got some action on the record 1:33:46.800 --> 1:33:51.439 company front. We finally had it all. It takes as one, 1:33:51.479 --> 1:33:54.240 as I like to say, there was crickets and then 1:33:54.240 --> 1:33:57.679 there was one, and that was Peter Fulben bringing Bruce 1:33:57.720 --> 1:34:02.960 Springsteen to see the Bengals play The Scrappy, the Scrappy 1:34:03.040 --> 1:34:06.519 early iteration of the Bengals play at Magic Mountain? Am 1:34:06.560 --> 1:34:08.880 I repeating? Or have I have I not? No? No 1:34:08.880 --> 1:34:11.840 no no, keep no yeah. Yeah. So we had a 1:34:11.880 --> 1:34:14.479 gig at Magic Mountain. It was a very spinal tap 1:34:14.560 --> 1:34:16.599 sort of atmosphere. It was just sort of a band 1:34:16.640 --> 1:34:19.240 shell and a kind of a cement stage as I recall, 1:34:19.320 --> 1:34:24.280 and sort of rising up seats, and we met Bruce Springsteen. 1:34:24.439 --> 1:34:27.000 Peter had dragged him all the way from wherever he lived. 1:34:28.000 --> 1:34:33.759 And I've always thought Bruce vetted the band, because you know, somehow, 1:34:33.800 --> 1:34:35.720 some way, I'm going to give him credit for that 1:34:35.840 --> 1:34:41.280 and Peter Philbinum, but it's kind of amazing to think 1:34:41.320 --> 1:34:44.360 that he dragged Bruce out to a theme park to 1:34:44.439 --> 1:34:48.519 see this all girl band. I don't know, how did 1:34:48.520 --> 1:34:52.240 you get him? How did you get a manager? Um? Okay, 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:57.439 so how did we meet Miles Copeland and Mike Gormley. 1:34:57.600 --> 1:35:01.320 We had a lawyer, Candice Hanson, who was really advocating 1:35:01.360 --> 1:35:06.600 for us. Oh I remember now, Sorry, it took me 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:09.679 a second. We were part of the Paisley underground scene 1:35:11.120 --> 1:35:14.439 and we were playing at like the Cathay de Grand 1:35:14.560 --> 1:35:17.799 or are one of the ones that kind of downtown 1:35:18.000 --> 1:35:22.560 LA or Hollywood. It was one of the ones in Hollywood, 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:26.040 and I remember post show, I was sitting at the 1:35:26.080 --> 1:35:31.479 bar or someone said there's a there's this god. No, 1:35:31.680 --> 1:35:34.320 I must have sat. I somehow managed to sit next 1:35:34.360 --> 1:35:36.599 to him. I had no idea who he was. I 1:35:36.640 --> 1:35:39.479 didn't really know that much about the police because of 1:35:39.560 --> 1:35:43.439 my obsession with sixties music. I wasn't really like up 1:35:43.520 --> 1:35:47.439 on the bands of the eighties at that time period. 1:35:47.479 --> 1:35:54.040 This would have been eighty two, nineteen eighty two or yeah, 1:35:54.080 --> 1:35:56.720 I'm guessing eighty two. I'd go up to him, he 1:35:56.720 --> 1:35:59.639 starts to make conversation with me. I have no idea 1:35:59.680 --> 1:36:01.920 who he is. No one told me that I had 1:36:01.960 --> 1:36:05.920 no clue that he was this iconic manager. And I 1:36:06.040 --> 1:36:09.719 was kind of, you know, kind of sassy and scrappy. 1:36:09.800 --> 1:36:12.320 I don't know I don't remember really like treating him 1:36:12.360 --> 1:36:18.160 like he was some important person. And so that's my 1:36:18.280 --> 1:36:22.880 memory of first meeting Miles. Okay, now let's switch back. 1:36:23.280 --> 1:36:25.519 You said you were talked about what it would cost 1:36:25.560 --> 1:36:28.200 to make this record, and then you talked about doing 1:36:28.280 --> 1:36:32.639 things in an indie way. Yeah, what it would cost 1:36:32.680 --> 1:36:35.760 to make the one I made with Peter? Right? Where 1:36:35.760 --> 1:36:38.360 the money would come from? Well, the money I took 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:42.800 the money from that I'd made over the years in 1:36:42.880 --> 1:36:47.240 my life, and I invested in myself. Yeah, I have 1:36:47.320 --> 1:36:50.080 to ask, under today's circumstances, how much did it cost 1:36:50.120 --> 1:36:53.439 to make the record? Oh, I don't like talking about 1:36:53.439 --> 1:36:55.800 that kind of stuff. Well, let me put it a 1:36:55.800 --> 1:36:58.200 different way. Maybe Peter can give it to you. It 1:36:58.280 --> 1:37:01.400 was it cost enough to let's put it this way. 1:37:01.439 --> 1:37:09.240 He hired the best people, a great studio. Yeah, I 1:37:09.280 --> 1:37:11.280 don't know if i'll I don't know if a person 1:37:11.320 --> 1:37:16.559 can make money unless they get song placements anymore. I 1:37:16.600 --> 1:37:19.280 don't know. I don't know about the music business. Well, 1:37:19.479 --> 1:37:23.160 that's why I'm asking. You're investing X somewhere between thirty 1:37:23.160 --> 1:37:26.839 and one hundred K, and are you thinking about return 1:37:26.880 --> 1:37:32.320 on investment? Not at the moment, I'm just helping people 1:37:32.360 --> 1:37:35.519 connect with the music. I don't. I mean, I guess 1:37:35.600 --> 1:37:41.679 that that I'm in a lucky position that all these 1:37:41.720 --> 1:37:46.719 many decades of being a hard working gal doing her thing, 1:37:47.600 --> 1:37:53.080 and the great fortune of having songs like Eternal Flame 1:37:54.720 --> 1:38:00.559 click with audiences and remain something that people dream or 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:07.040 want a license for movie and television placements, that I've 1:38:07.080 --> 1:38:16.360 continued to receive enough royalties to fund my own indie record. Okay, 1:38:16.360 --> 1:38:22.240 so just going on, Peter tracks you down, but you're 1:38:22.280 --> 1:38:27.519 paying well? Sure, and Peter did not. The fee to 1:38:28.200 --> 1:38:34.040 produce the record was extraordinarily reasonable. If not, I mean, 1:38:36.080 --> 1:38:38.479 I think both Peter and I are in a place 1:38:38.640 --> 1:38:42.599 in our journeys on this planet we call Earth that um, 1:38:43.320 --> 1:38:47.680 we were doing it for love. I mean, really, he 1:38:47.840 --> 1:38:53.439 was very reasonable. And I wanted to pay these hard 1:38:53.479 --> 1:38:59.479 working musicians what what felt right to them, so, you know, 1:38:59.800 --> 1:39:02.599 and I wanted to the young man who runs the 1:39:02.640 --> 1:39:05.000 studio as a dear friend, and I wanted to make 1:39:05.000 --> 1:39:09.639 sure that I was paying everybody what felt comfortable. They 1:39:09.680 --> 1:39:13.559 all knew that I was self financing this record, so people, 1:39:14.200 --> 1:39:17.519 you know, were cognizant of that. But I also wanted 1:39:17.600 --> 1:39:19.840 people to be happy. I didn't. I never want to 1:39:19.840 --> 1:39:22.400 take advantage of everyone's doing the best job that they can. 1:39:22.479 --> 1:39:25.200 And I'm so fortunate to be in the company of 1:39:25.240 --> 1:39:29.200 these extraordinary human beings who work so hard to help 1:39:29.240 --> 1:39:33.040 me create something, hopefully that's beautiful and connects. But one 1:39:33.120 --> 1:39:36.479 never knows. Every time you throw yourself out there to 1:39:36.640 --> 1:39:41.960 make something, you just hope for the best that some 1:39:42.080 --> 1:39:49.759 connection will be made and somebody will somewhere somewhere around 1:39:49.760 --> 1:39:52.360 the world will click on a song and go, ah, 1:39:52.360 --> 1:39:57.080 this is exactly what I needed to hear. Okay, you know, 1:39:57.200 --> 1:40:01.400 he brought in his usual suspects, like walk tell all 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:07.080 great players. Were you intimidated it all? Yes, at first, 1:40:07.200 --> 1:40:10.839 until I met them, and then they were like family. 1:40:11.840 --> 1:40:18.680 I mean I was so intimidated at first, and but 1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:22.559 they're not intimidating human beings. They're warm, and they're a 1:40:22.600 --> 1:40:26.679 family and they've played together forever and Peter knows them 1:40:26.680 --> 1:40:29.439 so well. I was like in the best club, and 1:40:29.520 --> 1:40:31.799 they invited me to be a member of their club, 1:40:31.960 --> 1:40:40.080 you know, like I was rather like pinching myself, like wait, 1:40:40.400 --> 1:40:45.280 is this happening? Yes? And then they made me step up, 1:40:45.280 --> 1:40:48.719 and I just wanted to be my best in front 1:40:48.760 --> 1:40:50.920 of them. I just wanted to give my all and 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:54.880 be my best because they're masters. They're all masters, every 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:58.640 single one of those guys you just mentioned. Okay, So 1:40:58.800 --> 1:41:01.240 from the moment you got to mast Alibu and you 1:41:01.320 --> 1:41:04.040 meet Peter, how long after that till you go into 1:41:04.040 --> 1:41:10.519 the studio? Okay? That was I want to say. In 1:41:10.640 --> 1:41:16.920 the in the spring, so maybe April ish, beginning of May. 1:41:17.240 --> 1:41:21.719 I'm going to Malibu regularly and playing around and trying 1:41:22.360 --> 1:41:25.360 songs on for size, like you know, does it do 1:41:25.479 --> 1:41:27.599 they fit? Can I sing it? What are the keys? 1:41:27.760 --> 1:41:32.320 And then I believe we started recording, and Peter can 1:41:32.360 --> 1:41:34.559 give you this if I'm wrong, but I believe we 1:41:34.760 --> 1:41:37.720 started recording. The first batch was in September, and like 1:41:37.840 --> 1:41:43.559 I said, we tracked I don't know a whole all 1:41:43.600 --> 1:41:51.599 the songs with with that crew in four days, maybe three, 1:41:51.840 --> 1:41:56.559 three to four days. That's how good they are. And 1:41:56.720 --> 1:41:58.960 how much longer did it take for you to lay 1:41:59.000 --> 1:42:02.680 your vocals down and finished recording process? M Well, so 1:42:02.720 --> 1:42:07.040 I had they had all the live vocals, and then 1:42:09.200 --> 1:42:14.040 it took another series of recording sessions to do all 1:42:14.080 --> 1:42:18.800 the harmonies and to sing, taking another crack at the vocals. 1:42:18.840 --> 1:42:21.519 In some times you can use the live vocal. I 1:42:21.560 --> 1:42:25.240 think in certain cases sometimes you can mix and match 1:42:25.360 --> 1:42:30.080 between days and takes. And I mean, this is how 1:42:30.120 --> 1:42:34.880 it's done these days, as opposed to like Elvis Presley days, 1:42:34.880 --> 1:42:38.360 probably everything was recorded on a few tracks in one take, 1:42:38.479 --> 1:42:42.320 but some vocals are virtually one take vocals. I think 1:42:43.280 --> 1:42:46.120 it was so enjoyable to sing these great songs. It's 1:42:46.160 --> 1:42:49.800 like the pleasure of a of a of for a 1:42:49.880 --> 1:42:53.320 singer is to sing a great song. Okay, these are 1:42:53.400 --> 1:42:59.000 covers but mostly modern songs. Was the concept originally covers? 1:42:59.040 --> 1:43:02.559 And how did you end up up with these particular songs? 1:43:02.560 --> 1:43:06.599 And was always thought, yes, we want to do contemporary songs. Yeah, 1:43:06.640 --> 1:43:09.440 I loved the idea that early on in my conversations 1:43:09.479 --> 1:43:13.000 with Peter, the idea of doing contemporary songs was like 1:43:13.160 --> 1:43:18.000 lit us both both up. We were very in tune 1:43:18.000 --> 1:43:24.280 with each other on that and in agreement. And because 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:27.600 when I did the Matthew Sweet records, it kind of 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:31.360 set this record apart from that because in those cases 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:35.320 we drilled down on a decade. So it's the sixties, seventies, 1:43:35.320 --> 1:43:38.080 and eighties we've done and maybe some day in nineties. 1:43:38.600 --> 1:43:42.000 But with Peter, I liked the idea. I loved. I 1:43:42.120 --> 1:43:47.600 so worshiped his work with Linda you know and so 1:43:47.800 --> 1:43:51.120 and the other wonderful female artists that he produced, but 1:43:51.439 --> 1:43:55.040 that those particular as I said, Heart Like a Wheel 1:43:55.160 --> 1:43:59.200 and Prisoner and Disguise were so impactful in my life. 1:43:59.200 --> 1:44:02.759 So I loved the idea that even on those records 1:44:02.800 --> 1:44:07.080 there were the curation of the songs was something I'm 1:44:07.120 --> 1:44:09.599 sure they did together, as Peter and I did. But 1:44:10.280 --> 1:44:15.480 Peter has such a gift for having ideas and inspirations 1:44:15.520 --> 1:44:19.719 and what might work. So the album was done. When 1:44:20.880 --> 1:44:24.200 so the album was done, the tracking was done quickly. 1:44:24.400 --> 1:44:29.040 Throughout the rest of that fall. We would grab like 1:44:29.120 --> 1:44:33.479 three days here a week there would we would we 1:44:33.600 --> 1:44:37.760 cobbled together a really nice schedule with you know, you 1:44:37.800 --> 1:44:40.479 could probably get that from him. I probably have it. 1:44:40.560 --> 1:44:43.920 If I went through my we usually would book like 1:44:44.240 --> 1:44:46.880 a streak of days like it would be, you know, 1:44:46.920 --> 1:44:50.559 we're going to work Thursday through Sunday this week. You know, 1:44:50.720 --> 1:44:53.880 we wasn't every day. I guess what I'm asking is, 1:44:54.439 --> 1:44:57.960 if it is now essentially April twenty three, when was 1:44:58.000 --> 1:45:02.759 the album done completed. Oh, it was done in the fall. 1:45:03.400 --> 1:45:05.880 It was done in the fall of twenty It was completed, 1:45:05.920 --> 1:45:09.120 i'd say with all the mastering, I mean the mixing 1:45:09.200 --> 1:45:12.120 part of it, because then there's that, there's the recording part, 1:45:12.439 --> 1:45:15.960 and then there's the mixing part. And there were dates 1:45:16.040 --> 1:45:18.679 book to have the string quartet because suddenly we wanted 1:45:18.720 --> 1:45:22.640 string quartet on everything. It started with one song and 1:45:22.640 --> 1:45:26.920 then it just spiraled out of control. Not out of 1:45:26.920 --> 1:45:30.000 control in a bad way, kids, in a candy storeway, 1:45:30.280 --> 1:45:36.679 is what I mean with that. We just couldn't resist. Yeah, 1:45:36.680 --> 1:45:40.320 So we had to be careful because everybody had certain commitments. 1:45:40.360 --> 1:45:44.200 I had to juggle with between book and music, you know, 1:45:44.320 --> 1:45:47.840 so and Peter had things. Yeah, but it worked out. 1:45:48.720 --> 1:45:51.280 So you're saying the album was done in the fall 1:45:51.320 --> 1:45:57.360 of completed in the fall of twenty twenty two. Yes, okay. 1:45:57.560 --> 1:46:00.360 So was it a conscious decision to release the book 1:46:00.400 --> 1:46:04.479 in the album simultaneously. I hadn't thought of it, but 1:46:05.800 --> 1:46:08.639 all of a sudden, the conversations as we were nearing 1:46:09.760 --> 1:46:12.559 my book release, I mean inching towards it, and I 1:46:12.600 --> 1:46:18.000 was already starting to promote the book and work on 1:46:18.040 --> 1:46:24.960 the game plan for that Russell Carter and let's see 1:46:25.000 --> 1:46:30.200 it would have been. I ended up having two publicists, 1:46:30.840 --> 1:46:35.519 Carla and Nicole, Nicole More coming from book World and 1:46:35.640 --> 1:46:39.040 Carla from Music World. Everybody put their heads together and 1:46:39.080 --> 1:46:41.080 we had I think we had a zoom or something 1:46:41.400 --> 1:46:44.400 to discuss what the how the rollout would go with 1:46:44.439 --> 1:46:47.240 these two big projects that I've been working on for 1:46:47.280 --> 1:46:53.080 so long, and it was deemed that maybe we put 1:46:53.120 --> 1:46:57.519 them out on the same day. Here we are, what 1:46:57.560 --> 1:47:01.800 the hell? Going back to the album, how'd you pick 1:47:01.960 --> 1:47:06.559 Black Coffee in Bed? Well, I love that song. You know, 1:47:06.680 --> 1:47:11.160 as a person who loves music, you know, I can't 1:47:11.200 --> 1:47:15.200 help us sing along to certain songs, and that was 1:47:15.240 --> 1:47:19.040 one of them. And also Squeeze were really important to 1:47:19.080 --> 1:47:22.040 me in the eighties because I discovered them. It was 1:47:22.120 --> 1:47:24.800 right when the Bengals were happening, and so there were 1:47:24.800 --> 1:47:27.880 certain bands that you would be very aware of because 1:47:27.880 --> 1:47:29.960 you were all putting out records at the same time. 1:47:31.360 --> 1:47:33.559 And I just have always had a passion for the 1:47:33.680 --> 1:47:36.920 music of Squeeze. Well, it's just funny because that was 1:47:36.960 --> 1:47:41.760 the subsequent album to the one with Tempted and Paul 1:47:41.840 --> 1:47:44.760 Carrick had already gone and I love that song, but 1:47:44.880 --> 1:47:48.320 nobody ever talks about it. Tempted. I love it. You 1:47:48.800 --> 1:47:51.120 talking about black No, no, I'm talking about black coffee 1:47:51.160 --> 1:47:54.040 and bids. Oh no, I love it. I'm glad you 1:47:54.120 --> 1:47:57.360 love it too. I just love it. And how about 1:47:57.800 --> 1:48:02.120 only you? How did only you the well? I so 1:48:02.240 --> 1:48:05.800 I always whenever I love that song so much, and 1:48:05.840 --> 1:48:08.800 again it brings me back to the decade when the 1:48:08.840 --> 1:48:14.960 Bengals were here, there and everywhere. But I whenever that 1:48:15.040 --> 1:48:18.200 song comes on, I always sang the high harmony to it. 1:48:18.280 --> 1:48:20.920 I just made up a harmony, and I always wanted to. 1:48:21.080 --> 1:48:23.240 When I used to do shows at Largo in La 1:48:23.520 --> 1:48:26.400 I always wanted to cover that song and sing a 1:48:26.479 --> 1:48:29.120 high harmony on it. And then it's just I think 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:31.920 I just mentioned it to Peter that I loved it. 1:48:32.200 --> 1:48:34.559 I think it was that was one that was my idea, 1:48:34.600 --> 1:48:37.200 and I told him about my idea of just having 1:48:37.240 --> 1:48:39.960 it be like sort of a duet with myself, and 1:48:40.320 --> 1:48:44.240 that's how that happened. Have you met Alison Moye? No, 1:48:44.880 --> 1:48:48.000 I want to. She's cool. She's a very regular person. 1:48:48.880 --> 1:48:53.640 And how about you don't own me? Well? Well, you 1:48:53.720 --> 1:48:57.840 know that is one of the early examples of a 1:48:57.920 --> 1:49:04.719 kind of feminist and I met Leslie Gorett some something 1:49:05.439 --> 1:49:08.880 once there was like a convention or something, or some 1:49:09.040 --> 1:49:14.160 music business thing. But I've always liked the music again, 1:49:14.200 --> 1:49:17.519 of all of that whole period, and I just always 1:49:17.560 --> 1:49:20.679 thought that was kind of a badass little number that song. 1:49:20.880 --> 1:49:23.080 I mean, I don't mean to say really little number. 1:49:23.120 --> 1:49:26.360 It's a big number. It's a it's a defiant song, 1:49:26.560 --> 1:49:28.920 and I just really it really spoke to me, and 1:49:28.960 --> 1:49:31.599 I think this may be the case for a lot 1:49:31.640 --> 1:49:36.080 of people. Perhaps a lot of women in particular, would 1:49:36.280 --> 1:49:40.240 would find that song meaningful. So it was fun to 1:49:40.320 --> 1:49:43.799 take it on. Okay, dee Le's just say, twenty twenty 1:49:43.800 --> 1:49:47.559 three is very different from nineteen eighty three. And back 1:49:47.600 --> 1:49:49.519 in those days, the hardest thing was to get a 1:49:49.560 --> 1:49:52.519 major label deal. If you did, they promoted you a 1:49:52.560 --> 1:49:55.559 certain amount. You hit or you didn't hit, whereas today 1:49:55.720 --> 1:50:00.240 it's a vast cornucopia of all kinds of music. How 1:50:00.280 --> 1:50:04.040 do you get people to listen to this music become 1:50:04.040 --> 1:50:07.240 aware of it? I don't know. I'm doing everything that 1:50:07.320 --> 1:50:10.479 I can. I worry about it. It keeps me up 1:50:10.479 --> 1:50:14.880 at night. I'm doing my best. There's this thing called 1:50:15.240 --> 1:50:19.639 social media, and I've discovered that it is very useful, 1:50:21.960 --> 1:50:26.080 but it's it's it's work, you know, it's work in 1:50:26.120 --> 1:50:29.519 a sense because you have to create a lot of content. 1:50:29.640 --> 1:50:32.599 So it's this it's a new fun job. But it's 1:50:32.680 --> 1:50:36.680 again because everything is fueled by kind of an indie 1:50:37.040 --> 1:50:41.000 spirit and zeitgeist and how I approach all these things. 1:50:41.200 --> 1:50:45.320 No record company, you know, just doing everything as a 1:50:46.240 --> 1:50:48.639 just waking up in the morning and going, okay, let's 1:50:48.640 --> 1:50:51.120 make some art. What we're going to do here, and 1:50:51.160 --> 1:50:53.200 how do we promote these things? So it's really just 1:50:53.360 --> 1:50:57.479 making little videos. I mean the days that I can 1:50:57.520 --> 1:51:02.080 remember of the big video shoots that being on Columbia 1:51:02.160 --> 1:51:06.000 Records and all of what that was. I mean, at 1:51:06.080 --> 1:51:09.160 least especially during a pandemic, I've been able to just 1:51:09.240 --> 1:51:14.880 go around it with this little thing and make a 1:51:14.880 --> 1:51:17.320 little movie and send it to someone who can help 1:51:17.360 --> 1:51:19.559 me edit it. I have a partner that helps me 1:51:19.640 --> 1:51:22.000 with that because I'm no good with the editing with tech. 1:51:22.600 --> 1:51:27.400 But yeah, that's what we're doing. TikTok kind of changed things. 1:51:27.439 --> 1:51:31.240 Instagram changed things. There's loads of indie creators just putting 1:51:31.280 --> 1:51:35.000 their stuff on there and spreading it. That way well 1:51:35.000 --> 1:51:38.880 before we booked this on TikTok, I came across you 1:51:39.439 --> 1:51:44.880 singing some of my ear quotes here greatest hits a cappella. 1:51:46.360 --> 1:51:49.200 Did that just start or you said, oh man, I 1:51:49.360 --> 1:51:51.920 have to do promote my book in my album, let 1:51:52.000 --> 1:51:55.120 me do something. Well. The first ones that I did 1:51:55.280 --> 1:51:58.880 was just really in the deep dark pandemic days when 1:51:59.120 --> 1:52:02.200 people were not even and leaving their house. And I 1:52:02.200 --> 1:52:06.000 thought I'd already had a little social media on Twitter, 1:52:06.720 --> 1:52:10.519 maybe I just started Instagram. I was pretty late to 1:52:10.560 --> 1:52:14.439 the TikTok party, but I'm there now and I just 1:52:14.600 --> 1:52:17.760 put put the old version of this thing. I set 1:52:17.800 --> 1:52:21.679 it on my piano over there, and I just I thought, 1:52:22.680 --> 1:52:25.160 what should I do? How can I express myself? And 1:52:25.200 --> 1:52:28.200 I just did this one clip of me singing man Monday, 1:52:28.320 --> 1:52:30.559 and I had no idea it would connect so much 1:52:30.600 --> 1:52:34.320 with people, just me alone in my house, not with 1:52:34.360 --> 1:52:38.080 the band, not with anybody, but just solo. And I 1:52:38.160 --> 1:52:42.080 realized that I had this opportunity not only to explore 1:52:43.080 --> 1:52:47.719 the concept of being the folk seatinger that I started 1:52:47.760 --> 1:52:50.320 out as when I was that little girl and my 1:52:50.439 --> 1:52:54.080 uncle Carmy gave me that first giant guitar when I 1:52:54.120 --> 1:52:57.599 was eight. Like, I'm actually been asked on the book 1:52:57.600 --> 1:52:59.800 tour will I bring a guitar or will I sing 1:52:59.840 --> 1:53:04.400 a little bit? I'm honestly terrified because it's one thing 1:53:04.439 --> 1:53:06.839 to do it in your living room, and it's another 1:53:06.880 --> 1:53:10.160 thing to do it in front of people. But I'm 1:53:10.200 --> 1:53:13.000 bringing the guitar tomorrow when I get on the plane, 1:53:13.680 --> 1:53:16.880 and I have all these notes here. I just I'm 1:53:16.920 --> 1:53:22.200 making these little little notes because I've gotten myself so 1:53:23.040 --> 1:53:26.800 nervous about it. Here's my under my thumb. It says, oh, 1:53:27.120 --> 1:53:29.880 different drum in case I do that Capo four. This 1:53:30.000 --> 1:53:34.240 is me scribbling, scribbling it out, like I'm really just 1:53:34.400 --> 1:53:37.759 after this call. That's what I gotta do is figure 1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:40.320 out you know, I know I can do it in 1:53:40.360 --> 1:53:42.400 my living room, but can I do it in front 1:53:42.400 --> 1:53:44.639 of people at a at a bookstore? I think, So, 1:53:45.200 --> 1:53:48.240 what do you think, Bob? Well, you know, different people, 1:53:48.920 --> 1:53:53.040 without mentioning some famous names, they really need to warm 1:53:53.160 --> 1:53:59.080 up to produce the sound that they're famous for, Whereas 1:53:59.200 --> 1:54:01.519 it seemed very very natural with you. So I have 1:54:01.600 --> 1:54:03.800 to ask, can you just okay if I ask you 1:54:03.880 --> 1:54:06.000 sing a couple of bars a different drum right now. 1:54:06.040 --> 1:54:09.080 Could you do it? Absolutely? Yeah, I could do it. 1:54:09.760 --> 1:54:15.360 So the anxiety is just that other people will be there. No, 1:54:15.720 --> 1:54:19.400 the anxiety is just this natural anxiety that I feel 1:54:19.520 --> 1:54:22.040 before I opened my mouth and let the sound come out. 1:54:22.560 --> 1:54:26.559 But then when I do it, I go, oh yeah, 1:54:26.720 --> 1:54:31.720 Like it's kind of like a two personalities. It's like 1:54:31.720 --> 1:54:36.640 a split personality. It's like than me that might overthink 1:54:36.800 --> 1:54:39.040 or freak out and being it's just like my character 1:54:39.120 --> 1:54:41.200 in the book. Actually, I was able to write that 1:54:41.280 --> 1:54:44.600 because I know what that's like. I do have to 1:54:44.680 --> 1:54:48.520 kind of flip a switch and just go, Okay, I'm 1:54:48.560 --> 1:54:51.480 not chattering and schmoozing and talking with someone. I have 1:54:51.560 --> 1:54:56.640 to like produce this sound out of my throat and 1:54:56.840 --> 1:55:03.839 also stop my brain from subtitling, subtitling some other inner monologue. 1:55:03.880 --> 1:55:06.360 I just have to be in a singular focus with it. 1:55:06.520 --> 1:55:09.360 And so that'll be a little bit tricky because well, 1:55:09.440 --> 1:55:11.520 we'll see what happens when I get to the strand 1:55:11.560 --> 1:55:14.920 in New York City, you know, because the ideas like 1:55:14.960 --> 1:55:17.960 we're Q and ang and then there's like an idea 1:55:18.000 --> 1:55:21.320 will trigger well, here's a little bit of something that 1:55:21.400 --> 1:55:24.800 goes with that so I told Jay's the thing I'm 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:30.560 most nervous about because I haven't really ever sung like 1:55:30.760 --> 1:55:34.040 this this way, like completely alone with my guitar, though 1:55:34.040 --> 1:55:35.720 he hears me do it in the house and you've 1:55:35.760 --> 1:55:39.200 heard me do it in the house when I think, oh, 1:55:39.480 --> 1:55:42.000 put the camera on myself. This is something for social 1:55:42.040 --> 1:55:46.240 media to share. Do you normally have stage fright when 1:55:46.280 --> 1:55:49.280 you're on with a band or this is unique? I 1:55:49.400 --> 1:55:52.880 do have stage right. I have to overcome my stage right. 1:55:54.160 --> 1:55:59.200 I do, I do, okay, And obviously the goal of 1:55:59.320 --> 1:56:04.120 social media is to have a viral moment. Obviously, you 1:56:04.280 --> 1:56:08.480 go on these platforms, although your usual audience is going 1:56:08.480 --> 1:56:12.200 to be an older demo, you reach those people. Have 1:56:12.360 --> 1:56:16.480 you found yourself reaching new people? Well, that's the goal, 1:56:17.000 --> 1:56:21.400 And just as of recently, I'm starting to see the 1:56:24.920 --> 1:56:28.760 scales change in a way, in a positive way. I'm 1:56:28.800 --> 1:56:31.840 so grateful for anyone who wants to find me there 1:56:32.000 --> 1:56:36.160 and for long time fans. But I've been hoping, really 1:56:36.200 --> 1:56:40.400 hoping to connect with a new audience and also with women, 1:56:41.200 --> 1:56:45.880 young women too because for whatever reason, and I think 1:56:46.000 --> 1:56:48.640 and I don't know, I don't have statistics here, Bob, 1:56:48.680 --> 1:56:51.600 but the go Gos had a very big, big, big 1:56:51.640 --> 1:56:55.360 female fan base, as did I think Madonna. I'm thinking 1:56:55.400 --> 1:57:00.360 of our eighties selves, and weirdly, the Bengals had the 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:03.480 scales were tipped more heavily towards a male audience, and 1:57:03.680 --> 1:57:06.600 I never really understood it, but I've always wanted to 1:57:06.640 --> 1:57:11.600 connect with, you know, have the balance be a little 1:57:11.600 --> 1:57:15.320 bit more equal. So I'm feeling that now. Interestingly, I 1:57:15.360 --> 1:57:19.080 think the book because the character is a female, that 1:57:19.240 --> 1:57:23.919 the protagonist is a female woman, a female woman. Obviously 1:57:24.000 --> 1:57:29.840 this is me. I need more coffee. Do you edit 1:57:29.920 --> 1:57:31.840 this thing or do you just use it? Oh, we 1:57:31.880 --> 1:57:34.400 don't add. Everything you're saying is great, But let me 1:57:34.560 --> 1:57:36.680 switch to a couple of gears here. Yeah. Yeah, you 1:57:36.800 --> 1:57:41.000 made these couple of albums with Matthew Sweet. Yeah. Are 1:57:41.080 --> 1:57:44.920 you the networker or is it more like Peter Rasher 1:57:45.000 --> 1:57:49.400 you're just fielding phone calls? Oh, networker in terms of 1:57:49.440 --> 1:57:53.560 making it happen to reaching out to do it. Yes, Um, 1:57:55.240 --> 1:58:02.160 I'm pretty staunch in my you know, sort of work 1:58:02.240 --> 1:58:05.840 ethic to kind of like not hesitate to reach out 1:58:05.880 --> 1:58:11.360 to people. I can be the one to instigate in 1:58:11.400 --> 1:58:14.760 the process of working with Matthew Sweet, it was quite interesting. 1:58:14.800 --> 1:58:18.360 He was the magical wizard doing all the wizardry with 1:58:18.520 --> 1:58:21.640 the with the technology that that I when you said 1:58:21.680 --> 1:58:25.080 that I missed heard or understood what you're saying. I 1:58:25.080 --> 1:58:28.040 immediately thought about my dynamic with Matthew and that brought 1:58:28.080 --> 1:58:31.200 me to that thought. But no, I'm gonna go get 1:58:31.280 --> 1:58:35.880 them kind of person. I don't wait. I I once 1:58:35.920 --> 1:58:38.640 I have an idea, I throw myself into the deep 1:58:38.760 --> 1:58:42.000 end to plug the album title there. But and I 1:58:42.160 --> 1:58:46.680 just start dog paddling or whatever it takes to sort 1:58:46.720 --> 1:58:51.800 of rally the project, rally the troops, make it happen 1:58:52.160 --> 1:58:56.400 because I just I'm fueled by being in process with 1:58:56.640 --> 1:59:00.360 a creative project. That's what I wake up in the morning, going, okay, what, 1:59:00.560 --> 1:59:05.320 let's let's get in Let's let's get some paint on 1:59:05.360 --> 1:59:09.520 the canvas, let's, you know, tune the guitar, let's you know. 1:59:09.600 --> 1:59:13.160 I just what, I'm so fortunate that I can do this. 1:59:14.000 --> 1:59:16.360 And how did you actually hook up with Matthew Sweet 1:59:16.360 --> 1:59:20.000 to make those records? Um, we had done a show 1:59:20.000 --> 1:59:24.520 at McCabe's together the Bengals and Matthew and I had 1:59:24.520 --> 1:59:27.400 brought Mike Myers to see Matthew that we may have 1:59:27.480 --> 1:59:32.280 talked about that already, and that's ming te Um. We 1:59:32.280 --> 1:59:34.480 had done the band for Austin Powers. We were in 1:59:34.520 --> 1:59:38.200 the band. We created the band with Mike, and Matthew 1:59:38.280 --> 1:59:42.800 was there part of it. Um. I guess at some 1:59:42.960 --> 1:59:47.080 point it came up after the McCabe show that the 1:59:47.120 --> 1:59:52.600 Bengals and Matthew had been at that we should do something. 1:59:52.720 --> 1:59:55.200 And then he brought me up to his house and 1:59:55.320 --> 1:59:59.640 I've met his wonderful wife, who I'd known because she worked. 1:59:59.680 --> 2:00:03.160 She was part of the Austin Powers team. If it's 2:00:03.280 --> 2:00:06.080 very complicated, but it's all good. It's just that I'm 2:00:06.120 --> 2:00:09.280 trying to go back in time and sort of pull 2:00:09.440 --> 2:00:15.120 threads from different eras of my life. But Matthew had 2:00:15.120 --> 2:00:18.600 this incredible space up on up in the hills of 2:00:20.280 --> 2:00:23.960 Hollywood where he had an amazing studio and all this 2:00:24.080 --> 2:00:27.960 crazy art everywhere and all the art that he was making. 2:00:28.000 --> 2:00:32.160 He was just one of the most dedicated artistic souls 2:00:32.200 --> 2:00:35.600 I've ever met. It didn't just stop at music. He 2:00:35.720 --> 2:00:40.560 was making sculpture, he was painting, collecting art. So we 2:00:40.680 --> 2:00:44.200 just started to go up there and I basically, sort 2:00:44.240 --> 2:00:48.040 of like with Peter We basically pitched around song ideas, 2:00:48.720 --> 2:00:51.280 what could we record? And we got very giddy kids 2:00:51.320 --> 2:00:53.560 in a candy store, as how I described it with 2:00:53.640 --> 2:00:57.240 Matthew for sure, I remember the day on the second 2:00:57.280 --> 2:01:01.200 record when we were broaching the idea of doing a 2:01:01.320 --> 2:01:05.240 seventies one in a second record. He we we're on 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:09.720 a call together and the concept of doing Prague adding 2:01:09.720 --> 2:01:14.160 in Prague rock to what we were intending to do. 2:01:15.240 --> 2:01:20.240 Um and I've seen all good people. Your move was 2:01:20.280 --> 2:01:22.560 the one that we chose. Um and that was one 2:01:22.560 --> 2:01:25.440 of my favorite ones to sing. I remember that moment 2:01:25.560 --> 2:01:29.640 that was that was the life changing moment. Do you 2:01:29.640 --> 2:01:32.800 you have a unique voice? When did you realize that? 2:01:32.880 --> 2:01:36.120 And are you self conscious about the way it sounds? 2:01:36.640 --> 2:01:44.960 You mean like my singing voice? Yes? Um? I and 2:01:45.120 --> 2:01:49.640 my self conscious? Did you ask? Sorry? And yes yeah? Um. 2:01:50.920 --> 2:01:54.280 I think I just have that built in stage fright thing. So, 2:01:54.440 --> 2:01:56.760 but early as a child, it was sort of how 2:01:56.800 --> 2:02:00.200 I lulled myself. It was almost like I've been told 2:02:00.240 --> 2:02:02.720 that I rocked back and forth a lot too. I 2:02:02.760 --> 2:02:08.080 don't know. There's always a rhythm going on and in 2:02:08.160 --> 2:02:14.320 my head a little bit, and I think that it 2:02:14.400 --> 2:02:18.720 was kind of delighting even to myself, when I realized 2:02:18.760 --> 2:02:22.520 I could sing along and mimic records, I could try 2:02:22.520 --> 2:02:24.640 to be like a minor bird. My mom always said, 2:02:24.640 --> 2:02:27.240 you're like a minor bird. I guess minor birds are 2:02:27.240 --> 2:02:31.720 the ones that can learn speech and can mimic speech. 2:02:32.680 --> 2:02:35.120 And I started to get like it was almost like 2:02:35.160 --> 2:02:41.760 a hypnotic meditation to drop the needle on a Jonie 2:02:41.800 --> 2:02:45.720 Mitchell record, for example, and sing a song, for example, 2:02:45.800 --> 2:02:48.920 like you turn me on I'm a Radio, and just 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:55.040 try to like fit in with what she was singing 2:02:55.080 --> 2:02:59.200 and sing along as perfectly as I could, with that 2:02:59.680 --> 2:03:05.240 fair sort of spontaneous melodizing that she does in her 2:03:05.280 --> 2:03:09.800 songwriting and her performing. And then the same was true 2:03:09.800 --> 2:03:13.080 with all these artists that I would sing to along too, 2:03:13.160 --> 2:03:16.520 And I even sang along to those early Beatles records 2:03:16.560 --> 2:03:23.240 my mom brought home. Yeah, so singing along was kind 2:03:23.280 --> 2:03:28.600 of a meditation, and I guess I realized that my 2:03:28.800 --> 2:03:33.120 voice was complying you if I think about it in 2:03:33.160 --> 2:03:35.880 a certain way, it was doing it. It was able 2:03:35.920 --> 2:03:38.560 to do it. And the more I did it, to 2:03:38.680 --> 2:03:41.520 the chagrin of my family, hearing me over and over 2:03:41.560 --> 2:03:47.920 again singing to certain records, the more I became confident. Oh, 2:03:48.000 --> 2:03:51.160 it is an instrument that I have and I can 2:03:51.560 --> 2:03:53.920 use it, and I just have to learn how to 2:03:54.200 --> 2:03:57.720 keep teaching myself how to use it by mimicking other 2:03:57.760 --> 2:04:00.440 people who do it. Well, that's how the process this was. 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:06.840 And do you still paint and draw today? Yeah? I 2:04:06.880 --> 2:04:10.560 don't share much of that, but I do not so 2:04:10.680 --> 2:04:15.000 much painting, but but drawing. Yeah. And then how many 2:04:15.040 --> 2:04:18.160 siblings do you have? I have an older brother named John, 2:04:18.200 --> 2:04:20.800 and Jesse is my younger brother. And what are they 2:04:20.880 --> 2:04:26.480 up to every day? Um? John is a very excellent writer, 2:04:27.480 --> 2:04:32.160 as is Jesse, although Jesse they both didn't really do that, 2:04:32.600 --> 2:04:38.080 you know, as a career. Um, Jesse practices law and 2:04:38.160 --> 2:04:43.560 he works. Both of my brothers. My brother was uh, 2:04:44.160 --> 2:04:48.040 worked for the Tennessee prison system as a as a 2:04:48.120 --> 2:04:53.960 therapist and had group therapy, you know, into that's what 2:04:54.000 --> 2:04:57.760 he did. And Jesse interestingly does a lot of stuff 2:04:58.560 --> 2:05:01.640 in the in the LA prisons systems. To league, you know, 2:05:02.240 --> 2:05:09.680 represents people a thing as driven as you are. I 2:05:09.720 --> 2:05:12.840 don't think so not. I mean I think I don't know, 2:05:13.760 --> 2:05:17.520 I can't really say, but I think that that that 2:05:17.680 --> 2:05:21.320 is something that this sort of burning drive that I 2:05:21.400 --> 2:05:24.200 have to do these things. I don't know what accounts 2:05:24.240 --> 2:05:27.920 for it, except I do think my childhood set me 2:05:28.000 --> 2:05:30.000 up for it, or set me up with the idea 2:05:30.080 --> 2:05:35.000 that I've found this kind of bliss of disappearing into 2:05:35.000 --> 2:05:42.320 this kind of process oriented work, and and that it 2:05:42.360 --> 2:05:45.800 allows for my imagination to be triggered and a sense 2:05:45.800 --> 2:05:52.920 of play. And I just I'm very grateful that that 2:05:53.120 --> 2:05:56.840 I've had the opportunity to spend so much time making 2:05:57.040 --> 2:06:00.880 art in all these different forms. And what was it 2:06:01.000 --> 2:06:06.040 like growing up? Is the middle child, the only girl? Well, 2:06:06.080 --> 2:06:08.360 I think the fact that I was the only girl 2:06:10.000 --> 2:06:13.200 gave me a little bit of a special place that 2:06:13.280 --> 2:06:17.840 my brothers may not be resented that I had. That said, 2:06:18.200 --> 2:06:22.720 I think that some of the sassiness in the book, 2:06:23.560 --> 2:06:30.000 and I think having all this boy energy from my 2:06:30.120 --> 2:06:37.800 brothers and being all adolescents together was informative and it 2:06:37.840 --> 2:06:41.640 gave me a hint into, you know, just how to 2:06:41.680 --> 2:06:47.960 write about the human experience. And I just found my 2:06:48.040 --> 2:06:51.680 family to be kind of endlessly entertaining in all their 2:06:51.800 --> 2:06:56.960 function and dysfunction. Dysfunction is very interesting to write about. 2:06:57.520 --> 2:07:00.400 I like to write characters who have dysfunction and because 2:07:00.400 --> 2:07:04.839 otherwise it's boring if everybody's perfect and like a robot, 2:07:05.600 --> 2:07:11.480 you know. So I like idiosyncratic in idiosyncrasies in characters. 2:07:11.520 --> 2:07:14.960 I like characters who behave badly. I like characters that 2:07:15.040 --> 2:07:18.760 we love to dislike. I mean, I just I just like. 2:07:20.760 --> 2:07:24.600 I don't know. It adds interest to things, and I 2:07:24.640 --> 2:07:27.840 think it's it's been fun to write about. Okay, And 2:07:27.960 --> 2:07:30.840 going back to the scene in the eighties, and there 2:07:31.040 --> 2:07:36.440 was a scene Bangals were very successful. There were other 2:07:36.480 --> 2:07:41.400 acts that got some notoriety at the time. What happened 2:07:41.400 --> 2:07:44.240 to all those people and do you have any contact 2:07:44.320 --> 2:07:48.360 with them? Well, some of the Paisley Underground, so called 2:07:48.880 --> 2:07:54.440 scenesters are still around. I still very recently I called 2:07:54.600 --> 2:07:58.800 Lewis Gutierres. We stayed in touch. We dated back then 2:07:59.320 --> 2:08:02.160 he was in UM. It was originally hit the band 2:08:02.240 --> 2:08:04.400 was called Salvation Army, then they were called the Three 2:08:04.440 --> 2:08:09.600 o'clock UM. I've stayed in touch with other members of 2:08:09.640 --> 2:08:16.880 the in quotes basically underground UM. There are there are 2:08:16.920 --> 2:08:21.839 things that have brought us together, sort of concerts, often 2:08:21.920 --> 2:08:28.680 for charitable organizations that you know that raising money for 2:08:29.400 --> 2:08:34.480 really really important causes we've done, We've all reunited for 2:08:34.560 --> 2:08:39.160 those those concerts. Um, what went back to your question 2:08:39.200 --> 2:08:42.280 against specifics. Okay, so you stayed in contact with those people. 2:08:42.320 --> 2:08:46.480 Those people were relatively successful, they brought records. But what 2:08:46.520 --> 2:08:49.520 are they doing all day? You have the luxury of 2:08:49.600 --> 2:08:53.040 having the hits that are licensed, etc. How are all 2:08:53.080 --> 2:08:55.720 these people staying alive? And are these good stories or 2:08:55.800 --> 2:09:02.200 bad stories? Mostly good, I would say, I mean some 2:09:02.440 --> 2:09:07.080 of them have gone onto non music or entertainment related 2:09:07.240 --> 2:09:11.080 jobs like um, some of them have you know, our 2:09:11.480 --> 2:09:18.160 work in businesses and for companies or stockbrokers or educators, 2:09:18.480 --> 2:09:23.879 you know. I but the yeah, so I I everyone 2:09:23.960 --> 2:09:27.800 seems to be doing okay. So so no sad stories, 2:09:27.840 --> 2:09:32.160 no burnouts, no ods, etc. No, I mean I've been 2:09:32.240 --> 2:09:37.080 lucky that way, you know. And I think my partners 2:09:37.080 --> 2:09:40.280 in the Bengals are all ensconced in m and No, 2:09:40.480 --> 2:09:45.320 Vicki's always staying creative. She just went to Europe in fact, 2:09:45.400 --> 2:09:49.240 to do a run of shows that were Paisley Underground. 2:09:50.680 --> 2:09:54.480 People involved with those and performing in Europe. So I 2:09:54.560 --> 2:09:56.680 know that I spoke with her recently and she was 2:09:56.800 --> 2:10:01.520 very thrilled about that. Okay, Susanna. Okay, let me ask you. 2:10:01.520 --> 2:10:04.080 Your name on the records that Susanna. How does your 2:10:04.120 --> 2:10:09.000 family refer to you as well? My parents are quite 2:10:09.040 --> 2:10:11.640 elderly now that I visit them as much as they can, 2:10:11.680 --> 2:10:14.080 and whenever I walk in the house, my dad says, 2:10:14.120 --> 2:10:19.000 Susannah bananas here. So he's been lately calling me Susanna 2:10:19.080 --> 2:10:23.880 Banana and um. He used to call me Zannie. That 2:10:23.960 --> 2:10:29.840 was my nickname. Some people call me Susie Quzi. I 2:10:29.880 --> 2:10:32.360 don't know. They can call me whatever the hell they want. 2:10:32.840 --> 2:10:37.120 I love them, I don't care. But um, yeah, I answered, 2:10:37.400 --> 2:10:41.000 I answer mostly to Sue and Susanna. I've never been 2:10:41.000 --> 2:10:45.200 a Susan. My ballet teacher who's I love and we're 2:10:45.240 --> 2:10:48.280 still in touch after all these years. He used to 2:10:48.320 --> 2:10:52.000 call me Susanne, and I was I was fine with that. 2:10:52.520 --> 2:10:55.240 The only the only one I don't really connect with 2:10:55.480 --> 2:10:59.000 is Susan. I don't feel like a Susan. I'm good, 2:10:59.040 --> 2:11:02.400 I'm okay with a Susanne. Susanna Banana is just fine. 2:11:02.440 --> 2:11:07.240 You're welcome to call me that. Bob. Yeah, that's that's 2:11:07.320 --> 2:11:09.760 sort of the answer to that. And your father was 2:11:09.800 --> 2:11:14.120 a psychoanalyst. What was your experience with therapy. Oh, I 2:11:14.200 --> 2:11:18.800 was heavily into it. I did on the couch psychoanalysis, 2:11:19.280 --> 2:11:23.920 you know, Freudian analysis in the eighties, and boy did 2:11:23.960 --> 2:11:27.640 I need it. It was very stressful. The music business. 2:11:27.720 --> 2:11:32.120 I mean, music is one thing, the music business is 2:11:32.160 --> 2:11:36.400 another beast Entirely. I think I just needed, you know, 2:11:37.640 --> 2:11:41.080 to have therapy then. And I'm glad that I was 2:11:41.160 --> 2:11:43.440 kind of early on the tip. I don't think had 2:11:43.520 --> 2:11:47.760 my father not been a psychiatrist psychoanalyst, I don't know 2:11:47.840 --> 2:11:50.440 that I would have even known to do it. But 2:11:50.560 --> 2:11:54.920 it was such a part of my childhood knowing that 2:11:54.960 --> 2:11:57.840 my father was helping all these people, and you know, 2:11:57.880 --> 2:12:03.280 it was really good at his job. You know. People 2:12:03.320 --> 2:12:05.520 always used to say, what's it like having a shrink 2:12:05.560 --> 2:12:09.400 for a dad, And I said, usually, he just reminds 2:12:09.440 --> 2:12:14.160 me that everyone's crazy. Everyone's crazy. It's not like you're 2:12:14.200 --> 2:12:17.520 the only one. So I suppose we all sort of 2:12:17.680 --> 2:12:21.240 need something to get us through this thing week called life. 2:12:22.040 --> 2:12:24.680 And so for me, I got, I got that psycho 2:12:25.040 --> 2:12:28.560 analytic treatment. They used to call it treatment in the 2:12:28.800 --> 2:12:33.040 uh just talk therapy, really, um, I got I got 2:12:33.080 --> 2:12:36.360 in early with that. And what about later days, you 2:12:36.400 --> 2:12:39.360 go back for a tune out. I did. I did 2:12:39.440 --> 2:12:41.960 need a tune up once I became a mom and 2:12:43.160 --> 2:12:46.640 just I definitely went back to the same person. I'm 2:12:46.760 --> 2:12:52.120 very fortunate. Yeah. And when it was psychoanalysis on the couch, 2:12:52.320 --> 2:12:54.840 it was multiple days a week, I presume always like 2:12:54.880 --> 2:12:57.960 four days a week, I mean a barring when I 2:12:58.000 --> 2:13:01.960 was on tour, you know, of course. Yeah, it was 2:13:02.000 --> 2:13:05.680 like traditional like when you watch watch Annie Hall or something, 2:13:05.720 --> 2:13:10.760 and you know, uh, you cut back and forth between 2:13:10.800 --> 2:13:15.160 the the analysis sessions. They're saying the exact opposite thing. 2:13:16.720 --> 2:13:18.760 They never want to have sex. They want to have 2:13:18.840 --> 2:13:23.440 sex all the time. And any word of wisdom you 2:13:23.480 --> 2:13:31.240 can leave us with from therapy. From therapy, um, oh, 2:13:31.240 --> 2:13:35.280 what would I say about it? Thank you to the 2:13:35.280 --> 2:13:39.320 therapists and to all you know, no, no, no, what 2:13:39.440 --> 2:13:45.280 did you learn about yourself? About life? Well, I'll tell 2:13:45.320 --> 2:13:48.960 you what. I wish I can say this to everybody 2:13:48.960 --> 2:13:55.280 in their twenties. Enjoy your twenties. Enjoy them. You only 2:13:55.320 --> 2:13:58.520 get to be in your twenties then, and you waste 2:13:58.520 --> 2:14:02.560 so much time thinking you're not good enough, you're not 2:14:02.680 --> 2:14:05.600 this enough, you're not bad enough. I wish I could 2:14:06.080 --> 2:14:10.120 give my twenty something self a pep talk and say, 2:14:10.360 --> 2:14:14.080 let it go. You this, You're in your freaking twenties, 2:14:14.120 --> 2:14:17.400 you idiot. That's what I wish I could say, don't 2:14:17.600 --> 2:14:22.560 fritter this time. It's that's oh my gosh, you know, 2:14:22.600 --> 2:14:25.520 and having kids in their twenties. I saw, you know, 2:14:25.600 --> 2:14:30.200 it's it's it's a weirdly complex and fraught time. But 2:14:30.520 --> 2:14:32.680 if I had a way to go back and tell 2:14:32.760 --> 2:14:36.920 my my twenties something self, any something, it'd be stop 2:14:37.640 --> 2:14:41.840 beating yourself up, Stop criticizing everything about yourself, Stop worrying 2:14:41.880 --> 2:14:45.080 about all these things. Do everything you can to cope 2:14:45.080 --> 2:14:48.720 with anxiety and healthy ways, in the best ways. But 2:14:49.320 --> 2:14:53.200 you know you're blowing it because you don't get to 2:14:53.240 --> 2:14:57.680 be twenty again. Okay, one final thing, because I've been 2:14:57.720 --> 2:14:59.720 watching you here on the zoom, even though the audience 2:14:59.680 --> 2:15:03.240 doesn't see the zoom. You don't wear a wedding ring 2:15:04.040 --> 2:15:07.360 protect at a moment. You just didn't put it on today, 2:15:07.480 --> 2:15:10.360 or you normally don't wear it. You know, Jay wears 2:15:10.440 --> 2:15:15.040 his every day. I because I played guitar it, I've 2:15:15.040 --> 2:15:19.480 always found it a little bit uncomfortable. I'm so married. 2:15:19.880 --> 2:15:23.200 You're right, but I do. I just I'm lax about 2:15:23.200 --> 2:15:26.480 wearing the ring. But he doesn't hold me. He doesn't 2:15:26.480 --> 2:15:30.440 hold it against me. He knows i'm He can count 2:15:30.480 --> 2:15:37.200 on me, ring or no ring on my left ring finger. Okay, 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:40.800 Susannah Banana, I think I think we've come to the 2:15:40.960 --> 2:15:43.080 end of the feeling we've known. I want to thank 2:15:43.120 --> 2:15:46.160 you for taking this time. It's been very insightful. The 2:15:46.240 --> 2:15:50.320 digressions were the best part. I wish you luck with 2:15:50.440 --> 2:15:52.920 your new projects. You already got a great review of 2:15:52.960 --> 2:15:57.840 the book in the Times, so you're on your way. Bob, 2:15:57.960 --> 2:16:01.840 thanks so much. I've been so looking forward to this 2:16:01.920 --> 2:16:05.520 and I really appreciate you wanting to do this chat 2:16:05.560 --> 2:16:09.880 today with me. It was great. In any event, till 2:16:09.960 --> 2:16:12.040 next time. This is Bob left Sex