WEBVTT - Athletes Who Stayed Too Long 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:05.600 Honestly, I just had a hard time watching him at 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.680 the end of his career. It just looked painful to 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.039 be shot lumbering up and down the NBA court at 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:21.919 that age. Welcome to One Day University Talks with the 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:27.000 world's most engaging and inspiring professors discussing their most popular courses. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.640 This podcast is your chance to discover some of our 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:34.599 top rated lectures on your own schedule. I'm Steven Schragis. 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.640 Spring is a great time for sports in America. The 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:43.200 twenty twenty three Major League Baseball season has officially kicked off, 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.720 the NBA and NHL playoffs are just around the corner, 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:51.800 and the upcoming NFL Draft will give us a sneak 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.720 peak of the league's next generation of superstars. But while 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.880 new players are just joining the world of professional sports, 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.360 others have stayed way past their prime. Why does so 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:06.760 many athletes refuse to retire? Professor Matthew Andrews talked about 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:10.720 this phenomenon in a lecture for One Day University. It's 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:15.400 called one season too many superstar athletes who stayed too long. 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.600 Matt teaches American history at the University of North Carolina. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.760 His courses dive into American sports and explore issues like 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.399 race relations and the American identity. Matt knew I had 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:30.360 one specific athlete in mind, by the way, when I 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:38.480 asked him to come up with this list. So you 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.920 asked me to give this lecture on athletes who stayed 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:44.800 around one season too many, and Stephen, I instantly thought, Oh, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.960 this is because Tom Brady is suffering. Tom Brady is 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:50.280 having a tough time. To be a New York Jets 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:53.760 fan is to be a long suffering New York Jets 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:55.880 fan and to lose at the hands of Brady over 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:00.520 and over. So I immediately figured this was you with glee, 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.440 rubbing your hands together and saying, I'm going to have Matt, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:06.640 you know, dance on the grave of Tom Brady metaphorically speaking. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.680 And now I'll give you a chance to to gloat 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.800 and dance metaphorically on Tom Brady's grave if you'd like, 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:15.120 because he did very poorly in the playoffs in his 0:02:15.240 --> 0:02:19.360 NFL career, so he says is over. I think I 0:02:19.400 --> 0:02:22.720 think it is over, and he ended by going down 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:25.880 in flame. So I'm one happy Jets fan. So Matt, 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.080 tell me what criteria did you use to go through 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.639 the array of athletes and who you were going to 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:36.760 focus on. Yeah, criteria, let's use that word loosely. This 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.959 was bad science. It was the epitome of unscientificness. You know, 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.680 there was no calculus. I yeah, there are number crunchers 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.480 out there who will look at players and they can 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.000 they can prove to us that these players stayed around 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:52.880 one season too long because of how their performance waned 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.000 on the field. I tried to think of athletes who 0:02:55.040 --> 0:03:01.240 suffered either a precipitous drop in quality of play. I 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.480 try to think of athletes who I suppose we were 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:08.000 kept around, or or who stayed around themselves because they 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:10.880 brought name recognition to a team. They knew that fans 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:13.280 would come and see them because of their name and 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.720 click the turn styles. For me, the obvious answer was 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.640 who are the athletes who damaged themselves? Who are the 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:23.880 athletes who damaged their bodies by playing way after they 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.799 should have? You know, is an athletes who tarnish their reputation? 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.560 Who were the athletes who were our idols and we 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.600 had to watch them struggle at the time. That's how 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:35.880 I thought about this. We might as well start with 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:40.440 what was at least once America's pastime and some names 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:44.120 everyone's going to recognize. Tell us a little bit about 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.400 how Babe Ruth and Willie Mays fit into this concept. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.080 When we think of Babe Ruth, when we think of 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.160 Willie May's, you know, we don't think of Babe Ruth 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:55.560 with the Boston Braves. We don't think of Willie Mays 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.400 with the New York Mets, or at least I don't 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.840 I think of him, you know, catching Vic Wortz's fly 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.280 ball in the Polo Grounds in nineteen fifty four. But 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.240 there are two examples of two all time American greats 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.200 of certainly baseball greades arguably the two best players in 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.240 the history of the game. Inarguably Babe Ruth is the 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.320 greatest player in the history of the game. Maybe you 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:19.120 could make a pretty strong argument for Willie May's being second. 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:21.520 But you know, when you think about Babe Ruth, you 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.040 think about the New York Yankees. The New York Yankees 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.240 got a little bit tired, a little tired of Babe Ruth. 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.159 He wanted to stick around to become a manager of 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.520 the Yankees, and the Yankees ownership didn't want that to happen, 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:33.680 so he went to the Boston Braves, and really he 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:35.680 went to the Boston Braves less to be a player. 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.280 He was hoping to one day become manager. And in 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.400 his final season, the greatest baseball player of all time 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.440 had a very meager one eighty one. He had that 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:50.080 one final moment of glory in May of nineteen thirty five, 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.640 he hit three home runs in one game, the first 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.920 fair ball out of Forbes Field, or at least that's 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:57.720 what they said. That gave him the number seven hundred 0:04:57.720 --> 0:04:59.840 and fourteen. But after that he was hitless for the 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.760 rest of his career. So the Bambino, the Sultan of Swat, 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.920 the Caliph of clout, you know, he went out with 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.200 a whimper. And then Willie Mays. That was four years 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.320 old when Willie Mays was playing baseball in nineteen seventy two, 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.240 and then five in nineteen seventy three. Willie Mays is 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.400 a Giant, right, He's a New York Giant. He's a 0:05:18.440 --> 0:05:21.760 San Francisco Giant, one of the best defensive and offensive 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.960 players we've ever seen. And then the Giants got a 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.080 little tired of him, but they wanted to give Willie 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.280 one last to ross, so they sent him back to 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.680 the met send him back to New York City where 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:34.760 he had made a name for himself. Willie Mays was 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.840 feted as a met There's this semi annoying habit of 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.320 granting All Star berths to fading legends for sentiment's sake. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.640 It's a nice gesture, but totally unfair to more deserving players. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.120 And Willie Mays was a National League All Star in 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.400 nineteen seventy three, but he hit two eleven And there's 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:53.960 that famous image of him on his knees in the 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:56.560 World Series, begging the umpire for a call, and he 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.920 misinterpret that image usually, But I think they're both grey 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:06.120 examples of supreme athletes who deteriorated rapidly at the end 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.400 of their career. And I think it was hard for 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:13.400 baseball fans to see that, let's do football because you 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:18.039 also had two football names that some of the story 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:22.840 is similar, some of it is different, Johnny Unitas and honestly, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.520 my personal favorite, Joe Namath. You know, there were a 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:27.760 lot of football names that I could have picked, and 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.800 in retrospect, I've been thinking about this. You know, for example, 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.040 there's Mike Webster of the Pittsburgh Steelers, the great center 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:37.599 who then ended his career on the Kansas City Chiefs 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.200 and had so much in this now we're getting serious here, 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:45.159 had so much head trauma from his years playing offensive line. 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.520 He suffered deep depression. He was homeless at the end 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.120 of his life. I mean, so, I certainly could have 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.320 talked about him. When I was talking to friends about 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.800 names of football players, A lot of them said, what 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:58.720 about Jerry Rice, to which I said, you shut your 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:01.320 mouth right now. Jerry Y is the greatest football player 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.480 of all time and my personal idol as a forty 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:06.400 nine Ers fan, So I don't even want to go there. Yeah, 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.560 so I went with two guys. Johnny Unitis with his 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:12.880 militaristic crew cut and black high top shoes. You know, 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:16.640 he was the archetype of the modern NFL quarterback. And 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:18.720 I grew up with San Francisco forty nine Ers fan 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.280 idolizing Joe Montana, and Johnny Unitis was the guy they 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:26.160 always mentioned whenever people talked about how great Montana was. Yes, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.960 but is he as good as Unitis? Unitis was tough. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.440 He started ninety two consecutive games at one point in 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:36.120 his career, which is remarkable when you consider as opposed 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:38.520 to Tom Brady, he were allowed to actually touch the 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:42.400 quarterback back in the nineteen fifties, in the sixties, in 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.040 the nineteen seventies, and then the Colts got tired of him, 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:47.840 the Baltimore Colts tired of him, and then he was 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.080 traded to the San Diego Chargers. And it wasn't just 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:55.400 that he played poorly. He played very poorly. You know. 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:57.880 In his first game on the Chargers, he threw for 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.239 fifty five yards with three inner options. He was sacked 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:03.800 eight times. You know, he clearly was a shell of himself. 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.400 But there's something about seeing Johnny Unitis in that powder 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.280 blue and yellow of the San Diego Chargers that just 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.840 did not compute. I'm not sure there's a more glaringly 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.000 incongruous vision in all of sports than Johnny Unitis in 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.600 that Chargers uniform. I said, maybe Willie Mayson the Mets uniform, 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.360 but at least I said New York in the front sometime. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.040 So Uniteds had nothing left in the tank. He was 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:29.280 nearly immobile. He was benched in the fourth game of 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.040 the season and that was that. So this legend just 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.360 once again goes out with a whimper. Okay, Matt, can 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.800 you tell us about Joe Namath, who really is my 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:41.440 all time favorite athlete? Yeah, I want to have a 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:46.000 conversation about Namoth. I think you can make the argument, Stephen, 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.040 that his first season in the NFL was one season 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.920 too many for Joe Namoth for the following fact his 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.839 knees were shot. His knees were already severely damaged when 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.040 he entered the NFL. You know, he tore his knees 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.160 up at Alabama. Emma. There's a famous story that when 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.800 he was introduced to the New York Press and the 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:07.960 New York sports writer said, you know, you've got this 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.439 huge contract and suppose you don't make it. And we 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.040 got a sense of Broadway Joe right then when he 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.160 just smiled and looked at the reporter and said, I'll 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.599 make it. You know, Joe Namoth did not lack for 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:22.560 self confidence. But on that day, the Jets team doctor 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:24.720 took him into a bathroom stall and asked him to 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.680 pull down his pants so he could look at his knees, 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:29.640 and the doctor later said he was shocked. He said 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.520 he had the knees of a seventy year old man. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.560 He had had so little cartilage in his knees that 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.840 he predicted Joe Namoth was going to last two years. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:42.040 Two years tops. Of course, Joe Namoth lasted more than that. 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.000 I think it's it's actually his ability to play through 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:49.240 incredible pain. That's one of the things that endeared people 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:52.480 to him. You know, people wanted to dislike him because 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:55.160 of his long hair and his cocky attitude and his 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.960 white cleats. You can say all those things about him, 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:01.760 but that guy played through pain. Is that how you 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:06.280 think of Joe Namath. Well, it's funny you're asking me, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.320 because this is the one area I can actually converse 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:14.080 with you, at least close to your level, because he 0:10:14.200 --> 0:10:17.480 was my favorite player. And I've read plenty of books 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.680 about Joe Namath and followed him. And here's my take 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.360 on it. The too much might have been what happened 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:30.440 after nineteen sixty nine, Joe Namath, as you know, won 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:36.320 the Super Bowl. He had perhaps the greatest moment in 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:41.439 NFL football, and pretty much everyone remembers it. It changed 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:45.880 things every day for the rest of his life. All 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.480 anyone wanted to talk about was that day, that game 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:55.240 he reached the highest possible level and one Special Day, 0:10:55.320 --> 0:11:00.400 January twelfth, nineteen sixty nine. Joe nameeth Boy his last season, 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:02.840 and as Yogi Berra said, you can look it up. 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:06.080 I looked it up that nineteen seventy seven season was 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.600 miserable on the Rams in his last game. I think 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.640 it's absolutely fitting Broadway, Joe ended under the bright lights 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:17.160 of Monday night football, lost to the Chicago Bears at 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.079 Soldiers Field. Here are his stats. He was sixteen of 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:25.640 forty two hundred and three yards, no touchdowns, four interceptions. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:29.080 That's Joe Namoth at the end of his career. Well, 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.680 I gotta tell you, just the thought of Joe Namath 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.079 on the Rams makes me want to move on to 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.560 another sport. All right, let's do it basketball. You chose 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.520 Shaquille O'Neill to talk about it, and you also pointed 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.880 out his reason to continue playing maybe a little different. 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.120 Why don't you tell us more about that, Matt Well, 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.800 The choice of Shack was based on the comments that 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.200 I received from people, most of them nice, but a 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.240 few of them questioning my choices. And Shack is the 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.199 one that a lot of people were upset with. The 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.520 Thing with Shack is this, when you are that big, 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:13.000 your growing deficiencies are that much more obvious. Look at 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.079 photographs of Shiki. Look at photographs of any of us 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.080 in our twenties and then later in our late late 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.800 thirties or our forties, and there's a stark difference. But 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.520 look at photographs of Shack when he came into the 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.720 league compared to at the end of his career. I 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.520 asked people mental trivia question, who did Shack end his 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.160 career with? And there were so many teams. It turns 0:12:33.200 --> 0:12:36.320 out it was the Boston Celtics, And in that last 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.000 year with the Celtics, he only played in thirty seven games. 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.040 He didn't even average double digits. You know, a seven 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.000 foot two, three hundred and thirty five player couldn't score 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.439 ten points a game. At his peak, Shack may have 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.120 been the most dominant physical force the game had ever seen. 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.520 Will Chamberlain is the only other person we would put 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:58.200 in that conversation, but Shack is in the conversation. I 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.800 was speculating a little bit about why he stuck around. 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.199 Shaquille O'Neill had spending habits that were as large as 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.839 he was. He spent millions of dollars in a couple 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.440 of days when he became a Los Angeles Laker, buying 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.640 multiple rolls, Royce's buying houses. When I think of the 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.120 great centers in basketball history, I think all of them 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.600 kind of went out on top, pretty close to the 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.880 peak of their powers. Bill Russell leading the Celtics to 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.080 their eleventh title in thirteen years. Will Chamberlain, who effect 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:30.400 went on to be an astounding beach volleyball player in retirement. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.120 Even Kareem's last year playing for the Lakers, when he 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.840 was forty one, he was durable, he was dependable. That 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.640 sky hook of his just seemed to be ageless. Shack 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.000 just did not live up to those lofty examples. He 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.080 was big and lumbering, and honestly, I just had a 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.000 hard time watching him at the end of his career. 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.960 It just looked painful to be shock lumbering up and 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:58.160 down the NBA court at that age. After the break, 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.240 Mac tells the story of two picers that hung in 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.640 the ring for too long and how Serena Williams broke 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:21.400 the mold with her retirement boxing two names, Joe Lewis 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:25.160 and Muhammad Ali. Tell us a little about them. Okay, well, Steven, 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.800 this is the one where like when I was saying 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.120 with Mike Webster in football, I think it gets difficult, 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.720 it gets uncomfortable. I'm still drawn to the sport like 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:37.920 a moth to a flame. I am drawn to the 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:41.120 sport of boxing, even though I shouldn't be. And when 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.880 you stick around too long in boxing, as opposed to 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.400 Willie May's and Babe Ruth, you get hurt, you get damaged. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.280 So it's just different in boxing. Joe Lewis one of 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:57.840 the most beloved athletes in twentieth century American history, probably 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.040 the most beloved athlete among Africa and Americans in the 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.440 twentieth century, because of the way he very silently and 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:09.440 powerfully did battle with the racist ideas that were out there. 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.120 Joe Lewis stuck around way too long. One of the 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:17.320 reasons that he did so is that some people, the 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:19.560 people who have looked at this closely, say he was 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.680 mistreated by the irs. He had raised money during the 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.320 war effort, he had donated money during World War Two 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.000 to the American government, but he was still taxed on 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:31.080 a lot of this money. His white managers took money 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:35.280 from him, and so Joe Lewis fought way longer than 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.120 he ever should have you know. He became heavyweight champion 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:43.000 of the world in nineteen thirty seven. He lost that 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.720 title in nineteen fifty thirteen years later. He never should 0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.880 have been fighting. Then he lost the title to Zard 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.840 Charles and then still in debt, Joe Lewis kept at it. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.920 In nineteen fifty one, when he was thirty seven years old, 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.560 he was destroyed in the ring by the new champion, 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.760 Rocky Marciano, and Marciano openly wept after the fight. Joe 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.120 Lewis had been his idol, and then it just became 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.240 so sad. At the end, he couldn't justify being in 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.000 the boxing ring anymore, so he turned to the theatrical 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.680 sport of professional wrestling, and he was flabby and he 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:19.360 was out of shape, but he needed the money and 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.080 he got hurt wrestling. In his final match in nineteen 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.040 fifty six, someone jumped on him and broke three of 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:30.480 Joe Lewis's ribs, gave him a cardiac contusion, making matters worse. 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.120 The match was held in Florida in an arena that 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.600 was totally segregated and did not allow black spectators, so 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.360 it was a really a very very sad end for 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:46.280 Joe Lewis, and then Ali fought way too long. Ali 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.520 should have retired in nineteen seventy seven when he lost 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.480 and then re won the heavyweight championship to Leon Spinks. 0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:56.720 One of the few Ali fights I remember was watching 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.240 him against Larry Holmes and by the end of the bout, 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:02.520 Muhammad aliud and lift his hands up above his waist. 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:06.680 He was so tired in the end because well, because 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:08.439 he needed the money, or is it because he just 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:11.359 loved the limelight. Is it because he feel like he 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:14.320 was owed the four years that he lost when his 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.960 boxing title was stripped for refusing induction to the Armed 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.720 Services in the mid nineteen sixties. I'm not really sure, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.800 but he fought sixty one times, He endured thousands of 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:26.879 blows to the head at the end of his career, 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.520 and then we saw how it ended. In nineteen eighty four, 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.840 he was diagnosed with Parkinson's syndrome. The disease stripped Ally 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.520 of his ability to speak and be heard. I'm not 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.600 sure there's a sadder. Well, it was both kind of 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:45.320 sad and uplifting when he lit that torch at the 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.760 Summer Olympics in nineteen ninety six, but seeing the incredibly 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.000 articulate athlete that he once was being more or less 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.359 silenced at the end of his life from all of 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.679 the damage he received in the ring. Those are the 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.439 two that really stood out to me. Many say you 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:06.440 are the foremost sports professor in the United States, So 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.399 I'm going to make a guess. You know, there's another 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.439 sport called hockey, So throw them a bone. Would you 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:17.159 sure absolutely give us at least a minute on a 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.160 hockey player? A few names come to mind. Eric Lindross 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.480 stuck around too long because of all the damage he 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.119 was doing to his head multiple concussions. For the once 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:31.879 great Eric Lindross, market Ann Brodure. He's on the shortlist 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.639 of greatest goal He's ever along with Patrick Waugh and 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:40.640 Jacques plant Broder. He ended his beautiful career by appearing 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.439 in just seven games for the Saint Louis Blues and 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.200 he was terrible. He was awful, and he retired mid season. 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.359 So just if he just could have ended as a 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.760 New Jersey devil, I don't think he would be on 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.120 this list. And then how about this guy Chris Chelios. 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.639 Chris Chelios, who had a remarkable career, certainly with the 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:05.320 Detroit Red Wings. Chris Chelios, who's obviously a sports junkie. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:08.040 You know, he tried to make the US bob sled 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:12.280 team for the Winter Olympics one year. Chris Chelios was 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.040 playing minor league hockey at one point in his late forties. 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.879 He seems so addicted to the sport. But go google 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.679 Chris Chelios Atlanta Thrashers. The image of Chelios in that 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:28.720 Thrashers blue. He played seven games for them at age 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:32.160 forty eight. Some people say it was a publicity stunt 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.760 for the Thrashers, trying to bring people into the stance. 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.399 If it was a publicity stunt, it was a bad 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.679 one and it was a blight on an otherwise sterling career. 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.359 I would argue, there we go, how about those names? 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.080 That was pretty good. You do know about hockey, so 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:48.840 I'm going to push you a little more. A few 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.800 people asked about golf, but then it occurred to me, 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.040 see what you think of this. Golf's a little different 0:19:55.520 --> 0:20:00.640 because players go to a certain age. Obvious, they lose 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.760 some of their skills at that age, but then there's 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:08.280 another league for them. They can keep playing against people 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.400 their own age, not against twenty five year olds. That's 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:15.199 a phenomenon doesn't exist in any other major sports, so 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:18.600 it so to changes the equation of playing too long. 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:22.040 On the other hand, there may be players who lost 0:20:22.080 --> 0:20:26.320 their skills regardless of age and shouldn't have kept teeing 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.520 it up. Any thoughts on that, Well, my first thought 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.480 is you're right. Golf is different. Golf is not boxing, 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:37.639 that's for sure. So I actually don't have any problem 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.639 with golfers sticking around as long as they can. I 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:45.280 remember when Jack Nicholas won the Masters in nineteen eighty six, 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.680 Steve and he was forty six years old, and it 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:50.560 was just such a great moment, and they went bonkers 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:55.680 for him at Augusta and forty six seems quite plausible now, 0:20:55.760 --> 0:20:58.200 but back then, in nineteen eighty six, that was shocking. 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.040 There were people who were telling Jack Nicholas he was 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:04.440 playing one season too many, that he was sticking around 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.399 too long, and we would have been denied that amazing 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.840 moment of him winning. People say Arnold Palmer stuck around 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.240 too long, But boy, my grandparents, who were card caring 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:18.280 members of Arnie's army, they didn't think he stuck around 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.720 too long. They went down and watched him play at 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.240 Pebble Beach every year. They wanted to see him keep 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.320 on going, and of course Arnold Palmer was able to 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.440 monetize that longevity. So yeah, I think golf is different. 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:34.879 You don't get hurt playing golf, So I personally have 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.480 a hard time thinking any of these guys stuck around 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.600 too long. One more question, then we're going to close 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:44.320 with a sport. I know you're interested in tennis. And 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:50.840 Serena Williams her retirement very interesting situation. In your talk, 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:55.760 you said she literally rewrote the retirement script, which is 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.200 an interesting phrase. What did you mean by that? Well, 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.960 as opposed to Johnny Unitis and Joe Namath and Willie 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:09.320 May's and Babe Ruth, you know, athletes who weren't able 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:14.000 to monetize themselves in the way that I think in 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:15.959 our modern day we feel like they should have been 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:19.199 able to. You know, Serena's different, So Babe Ruth and 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.000 Willie May's they were all subject to the reserve rule 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.879 and they could never become free agents and go on 0:22:24.920 --> 0:22:28.960 the open market athletes, even great ones like Unitis. And 0:22:29.040 --> 0:22:31.760 while Namith was starting to change the script and tap 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.560 into this idea, that athletes could be corporate spokespeople, and 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.480 certainly Babe Ruth did this too, but none of these 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:44.359 people made hundreds of millions of dollars like Serena has. 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:50.119 Serena has maximized her name, image and likeness as we 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:52.280 as we call it now when we talk about about 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:55.639 college athletes, and so she was able to walk away 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:58.399 on her terms. You know, she made the announcement in 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:01.640 a Vogue magazine cover story are complete with these super 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:04.160 glamorous photos of her on the beach, some of them 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:09.359