1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: Waren is pretty interesting, as horrible as he is. 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 3: When you're watching history unfold, you know, when you're sitting 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: in a courtroom watching somebody this was history in the making. 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 3: This was a crazy chapter in Texas history. 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 9 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked On Exactly Right. I've 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 11 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that writers. 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: Make, good and bad. 17 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: It's a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 3: My name is Katy Vine and I'm a staff writer 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 3: at Texas Monthly. 20 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: Katie Vine reported on a religious sect that broke away 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,639 Speaker 1: from the Mormon Church called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus 22 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: Christ of Latter Day Saints or FLDS. 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 3: I wrote two stories about the FLDS during the short, 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 3: tumultuous time that they were in Texas, one that asked 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 3: if the kids were safe there and another that covered 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 3: the Warren Jeff's trial. I did pitch this story myself. 27 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 3: I think I had just read about it in the 28 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 3: paper as events were unfolding, and then when the media 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 3: sort of went away, that's when I went in. 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: And how did they respond at Texas Monthly? I mean, 31 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: did they think this is? It was sort of a 32 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: see what you can get? 33 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: At the time. The FLDS was very closed off. It 34 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 3: seemed like I probably wouldn't get anything from them, but 35 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 3: that there was enough, even without the FLDS participation, that 36 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 3: there was a story to tell about how safe the 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: kids were after the state put them back with the families. 38 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: Can you on a pause for just a second, can 39 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: you tell me the difference between LDS versus these I mean, 40 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: what is because I do think with stories like this, 41 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: with the Jeff's case, they just get lumped together and 42 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: we know that's not the case. 43 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely right. So what would be the major different break? 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: Yes, Well, the FLDS still practices polygamy. The LDS does not. 45 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: They abandoned that practice long ago. The FLDS has their 46 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 3: own separate president and profit. They're a small sect that 47 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 3: broke away from the mainstream LDS church. 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: I don't remember when, but it's been a while. 49 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 3: I mean, there are other offshoots like this, like the FLDS. 50 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 3: Maybe for those who don't know the story, I can 51 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 3: back up and tell a little bit more about Warren Jeff's. 52 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 3: Warren was this sort of pimply kid favored by his father, 53 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 3: Rulan Jeffs, who was the president and prophet of the 54 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: FLDS that's the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints that was then 55 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: centered in the twin towns of Hilldale, Utah, and Colorado City, 56 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: Arizona that's collectively known as Short Creek. And he's this 57 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 3: sort of skinny kid, privileged status under his dad, a 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 3: tattle tale with the reputation as a peeping tom. Before 59 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 3: he's twenty one, he becomes principal of the church's private school, 60 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 3: Alti Academy, which sort of deemphasized science and current events, 61 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,559 Speaker 3: and rewrote course work to reflect the interpretation of FLDS theology. 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 3: Then his father falls ill and Warren positions himself as 63 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 3: the president and prophet. Two days after his father died 64 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 3: in two thousand and two, he announced to the men, 65 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: hands off my father's wives, and he begins marrying them 66 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 3: all himself. I think in the end he had seventy 67 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 3: eight wives, twenty four of which involved children under age seventeen. 68 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: How was this received by his group? I mean by 69 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: these people once his father dies. 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 3: It was sort of a gradual thing. They got a 71 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: little bit younger, a little bit younger. He's the president 72 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 3: and prophet, and so some of them I think privately 73 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: questioned it, but would never publicly question it. That's just 74 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: not something that was done. He was also arranging marriages 75 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 3: president and profit does in that church between I think 76 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: sixty seven marriages between other men and underage girls. He 77 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 3: facilitated a total of five hundred big of mismarriages. They're 78 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: ten thousand people in the church. In the end, he 79 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: dismantled I think three hundred families because he can sort 80 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 3: of rearrange at will and take someone's family away from 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: them and move them in with somebody else's family. Utah 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 3: began prosecuting the flds for bigamy and unlawful sex with 83 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 3: underage wives around two thousand and three, I think, and 84 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: Warren just figured he needed to do something. So what 85 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: happened was and how Texas kind of came into the 86 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 3: picture is in two thousand and four, Texas law said 87 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 3: that at age fourteen you could get married with a 88 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: parent's permission. 89 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: Wait what, Yeah, how is that even possible? 90 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,480 Speaker 3: After the FLDS motire, they moved it to sixteen because 91 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: I think they My guess is that the intention was 92 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: so that if somebody got pregnant young, they could be married, 93 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 3: so that you could try to have a solid family 94 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 3: base there is I think that was probably the original intention, 95 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: but then when they noticed hearing about the underage wives, 96 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 3: they moved that pretty quickly. And from what I understand, 97 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean a judge has to approve it. It's 98 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: just parents' permission. Or they bought about seventeen hundred acres 99 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 3: of land just outside Aldoredo, Texas, which is kind of 100 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 3: near San Angelo in West Texas. Warren took the most 101 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 3: elite members of that ten thousand in the church and 102 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: rewarded them with admittance to this ranch, which he called 103 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 3: the Yearning for Zion Ranch. 104 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: And that YFZ. That's it. 105 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, the unworthy would remain back in Short Creek, and 106 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 3: those are sort of folks who he thought were lying 107 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 3: or not doing exactly as they were told. He starts 108 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: excommunicating men whom he finds disobedient, sending them to repent 109 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 3: from afar, casting out young men, arranging marriages between the 110 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 3: wives of kids of excommunicated with the more faithful men. 111 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: Anyone slightly disloyal is expelled. So he had this sort 112 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: of iron grip on them already. 113 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: There was no opposition, there's no rebellion building. I mean, 114 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: they're literally doing what he wants them to do. 115 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: For the most part. 116 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm sure that there were instances of people 117 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: who disagreed, but they would be expelled. So in April 118 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: two thousand and six, he was indicted on criminal charges 119 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: rape as an accomplice for arranging a marriage between a 120 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 3: fourteen year old and her nineteen year old cousin. And 121 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 3: he went on the lamb, hiding out in various places, 122 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 3: I think, and totally spent one hundred and fourteen days 123 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 3: on the FBI's most wanted list. And then trouble started 124 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: in Texas in two thousand and eight in late March, 125 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 3: when a crisis center in San Angelo got a phone 126 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 3: call from a girl who said she was sixteen, that 127 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 3: she had a child, she was living on the YFC 128 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: ranch and was abused by her husband and wanted out. 129 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 2: There's a lot that story. That caller had. 130 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: A history of making hoax phone calls. I actually tracked 131 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 3: her down at one point, but she gave such a 132 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: confusing interview I couldn't I couldn't make heads or tails 133 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 3: of it. On April third, the Texas Rangers and some 134 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 3: local law enforcement went onto the ranch property with some 135 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: workers from Child Protective Services looking for this underage girl, 136 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 3: initially specifically looking for her, but then they start interviewing 137 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 3: girls who spoke of underage marriages and pregnancies. And at 138 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: this point, the authorities have severely underestimated the number of 139 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 3: children who were living there. 140 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 2: I think they thought there was a total of two. 141 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 3: Hundred and fifty people out there, but they found I 142 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 3: don't know how many adults there were over four hundred kids. 143 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: This is not something they had considered. The first night, 144 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 3: CPS took a handful of girls, and over the next 145 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 3: few days they took them all. There may have been 146 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 3: boys outside the property when the raid took place, and 147 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: that might account for the disparity between teenage boys and girls. 148 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: Other about twice as many teen girls as boys, but 149 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: all told, the state removed four hundred and thirty seven children, 150 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,239 Speaker 3: plus some additional women believed to be children at that time. 151 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: Can you set the scene for that? Is there any 152 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: retribution happening? Are they the members letting it happen? 153 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: Is it tactical gear? Do you know what that scene 154 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: was like? It depends on who you ask. 155 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: I think law enforcement was concerned there was going to 156 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: be a wake go situation. 157 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 2: I mean, you're taking people's kids away, hundreds of kids. 158 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: It terrified the kids. 159 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 3: There were stories about law enforcement coming into homes with weapons, 160 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 3: traumatizing the kids just by their presence. I think everybody 161 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: would argue it was awful, particularly for the kids. 162 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 2: One hundred and thirty. 163 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 3: Nine women went voluntarily to be with their kids, and 164 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 3: I think sixty or seventy. 165 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 2: Men and elderly women stayed on the property. 166 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: Even the social workers actually are haunted by memories of 167 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: that time. 168 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: You remember what happened in Florida or I was at 169 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 1: a news station when they took away Elion on Gonzales, 170 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: and that photo of him being pulled out of a closet, 171 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: I think by this guy in full tactical gear and 172 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: a huge gutment's horrifying. And that photo was printed so 173 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: many places, and it just symbolized what that means, being 174 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: ripped away from your family, So I imagine that's kind 175 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:17,479 Speaker 1: of the same imagery. 176 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: There was press all over this thing. 177 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: Fourteen days after the removal, there was a chaotic hearing 178 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 3: for all the kids, and the district judge in San Angelo, 179 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 3: Barbara Walther, decides the kids are in immediate danger. State 180 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 3: keeps the kids in temporary custodies, sending them all over 181 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: the state to various homes and facilities. The case quickly 182 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 3: rises to the Texas Supreme Court, and then the children 183 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: are sent back to the YFC ranch in West Texas. 184 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 3: I had at that time been sort of watching it 185 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 3: in the news, and I thought, I don't want to 186 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 3: be one of these hundreds of reporters. I'm just going 187 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 3: to get the same thing as everybody else. I'm just 188 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: going to wait. Most people stopped paying attention by like 189 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: May two thousand and eight, when the children were retre 190 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 3: turned to the ranch, and a lot had sort of happened. 191 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: By that point. Some people had quit the Department of 192 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 3: Child and Protective Services, making them more available to speak freely. 193 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 3: Twelve men from the ranch had been indicted for underage marriages, 194 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 3: and to me, just from a storytelling perspective, documents had 195 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 3: been released, in particular Warren Jeff's writings that showed what 196 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 3: had been going on. So things like this is a quote. 197 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 3: So send me the list of the older unmarried daughters 198 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 3: of brother Meryl Jessup and brother Wendell Nielsen, who their 199 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 3: mothers are and their exact ages. Inform me if there's 200 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 3: anyone in the family that does not know their duty 201 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 3: to perform. Also, if they're being too social in the kitchen. 202 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: Being too social in the kitchen, what does that mean? 203 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: He's just a control freak. Control freak? Yeah, another one, 204 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: he says. The Lord showed me that my wife Becky 205 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: withheld her confession. As I was leaving yesterday, I asked her, 206 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: where's your letter and she said she wrote it but didn't. 207 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 3: Want to give it to me. I asked her, why not, 208 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 3: I said, write it quickly. So she wrote me a 209 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 3: letter that said nothing except I want to do better 210 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 3: today today. I was impressed of the good spirit to 211 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: call her and say, you have had bad feelings? Have 212 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 3: you withheld your confession? And I saw she was fearful 213 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 3: to tell me, and she acknowledged she had many bad feelings. 214 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 3: So I told her to pack up her things and 215 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 3: she would be leaving in an hour to go back 216 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,319 Speaker 3: to Short Creek. She reacted wrong, she didn't pray, almost 217 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 3: accusing me of not loving her. It just sort of 218 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 3: showed how he had been kicking people out of places. 219 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 2: And just as a reminder, Short Creek is the banished. 220 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: It's like Siberia. It's for the people who were not 221 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: following the rules. Yeah, yeah, so I read. 222 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: I can't remember how many pages of dictations that he gave. 223 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: These are dictations, I call them writings. Actually, he had 224 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: other women around him constantly writing down his thoughts, his 225 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 3: every thought, and sometimes they would have to sit next 226 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 3: to him while he was sleeping in case he had 227 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 3: thoughts in the middle of the night, or if he 228 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 3: had a dream, they would have to make sure they 229 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 3: wrote that down because it might be some kind of 230 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 3: a revelation. Anyway, I asked the unofficial spokesman at the time, 231 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 3: Willie Jessup if I could come to the YFC ranch 232 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: in Elaredo, and to my surprise, he was open to it. 233 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 3: I think the church believed that they won and that 234 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: the state would leave them alone. More surprising was that 235 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 3: when I got there to the ranch, I brought a 236 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 3: photographer with me. Sarah Wilson and Willie drove us around 237 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 3: the ranch and mentioned that one of the girls who'd 238 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 3: been married to Jeff's his youngest wife, mary Anne Jessup, 239 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 3: was on the property and asked if we wanted to 240 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 3: meet her. I was like, are you kidding me? Mary 241 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: Anne is here? She was by that point fifteen. She 242 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 3: had been twelve when she was married to Warren. The 243 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 3: photo of Warren carrying her in his arms on their 244 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: wedding night got out into the press years earlier and 245 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 3: really freaked people out. 246 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: For good reason. 247 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 3: She is tiny in that photo, a sixth grader. Warren 248 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: is a tall, grown man, and they're embraced in a kiss. 249 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: He's holding her like. 250 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: Like he's cradling her like, cradling her like a baby. 251 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 3: And then you know, kissing her full on the mouth. 252 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 3: Her mother and guardian came out with her and they 253 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 3: spoke with us, agreed to have her portrait taken. We 254 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 3: have a very unusual circumstance, right. 255 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: She was fierce funny. 256 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 3: She indicated that the state of Texas just didn't understand FLDS. 257 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: All she would really say in response to my questions 258 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 3: was the truth will prevail again. Her mother and legal 259 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 3: guardian and the man who was a spokesman were standing there, 260 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: so who knows what she might have said otherwise, but 261 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: I got the impression she probably would have said the 262 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 3: same thing in private at that time. She agreed to 263 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 3: be photographed with everyone's consent, everyone's standing there, and her 264 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 3: face didn't betray any wavering from her words. 265 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,080 Speaker 1: So the photograph is very striking in the Really magazine. 266 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is. 267 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: And she seems well beyond her years, very confident. And 268 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: is that just the reinforcement of FLDS. 269 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, having only met her and 270 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: spent what maybe fifteen minutes with her, I just don't know. 271 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: I know. Afterwards, we really wrestled with naming her, you know, 272 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 3: because it's common practice not to name mine in these 273 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: situations because they'll be stigmatized. But what it came down 274 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: to was, you know, the whole stories about how underage 275 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 3: married girls in the community aren't stigmatized. They don't keep 276 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: the marriage a secret. They believe the state just doesn't 277 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 3: get it. So I still wrestle with whether that was 278 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: the right call, but we did so at the end 279 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 3: of the first article, which ran in October two thousand 280 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: and nine, I was still wrestling with the question of 281 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: are the kids safe now, which was sort of tricky, right. 282 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 3: You have to wonder whether just what outcome you're hoping 283 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: for If you have a teenager and you think she's 284 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: in danger her parents have performed underage marriages and she's 285 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: not married, but you think she could be, and what 286 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 3: would result is what some women who've left flds described 287 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 3: not just as forced sex, which is bad enough, but 288 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 3: forced pregnancy, which would keep them bonded to the community. 289 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 3: But thus far, she hasn't been in danger, nothing's happened 290 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 3: to her. Judges were having to weigh this is kind 291 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 3: of like, well, the parents haven't done anything with this child, 292 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 3: so why would you take that away based on some 293 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 3: potential and other people were arguing that the most faithful 294 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 3: at this place have done every single thing that this 295 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: leader has told them to do. And he's doing crazy stuff. 296 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 3: If they can't even in some cases sign a document 297 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: saying that they will not marry off their daughter under 298 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: a certain age, is that kids safe. The Department of 299 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 3: Family and Protective Services identified twelve girls ranging from age 300 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 3: twelve to fifteen who'd been victims of sexual abuse with 301 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 3: the knowledge of their parents. Two or twelve when they 302 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: were married, three were thirteen, two were fourteen, five or fifteen. 303 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: Seven of them had one or more children, and all 304 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: of them were what they call non suited, just given 305 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 3: back to the families except for Marianne. Marianne and another 306 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: fifteen year old became the subjects of the criminal trial 307 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 3: against Tom rang Jeff's that was in twenty eleven, and 308 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: so that became the second story that I did. This 309 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 3: happened at the courthouse in San Angelo, overrun with news trucks, 310 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 3: and it was a big deal. The room was packed 311 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: one hundred degrees outside. It lasted ten days, and while 312 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: I guess it shouldn't have really surprised any of us 313 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 3: or on, Jeff's decided to release his attorneys pretty quickly, 314 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 3: I think within the first couple hours of the trial, 315 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 3: and he decided he was going to address the court. 316 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: So this is what I wrote in the story. 317 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: Jeff slowly stood up to make what would then be 318 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 3: his first ever public speech, as a courtroom of people 319 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 3: craned their necks to get a good view of him, 320 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: the wood benches creaked. Jeff's is a tall, thin man, 321 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 3: and he was dressed on that day in a dark 322 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 3: suit and sensible black shoes. His graying hair was cut short. 323 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: He stooped over as if, at age fifty five he'd 324 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: had an early onset of osteoporosis. With his hands folded 325 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 3: in front of his waist, he began speaking in a slow, 326 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: deep nasal monotone. I have released all my council I 327 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: had desired to represent myself, he said. He paused for 328 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 3: a few seconds, and I would like my own motion. 329 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: I think, for most of us in the courtroom, one 330 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: of the strangest things we'd ever seen. 331 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 2: He would repeat these awkward phrases over and. 332 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 3: Over, like greater understanding, truth to be preserved, and true justice, 333 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 3: sort of randomly thrown into sentences. On the second day 334 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 3: of the trial, he offered an objection that lasted over 335 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 3: an hour, and at one point pulled some paperwork out 336 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: of a Manila envelope and recited a purported revelation from God. 337 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: He said, I, the Lord, God. 338 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: Of Heaven, call upon the court to now cease this 339 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 3: persecution against my holy way. 340 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: Let it stop now, and sent a. 341 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: Scourge upon the prosecutorial zeal to be humbled by sickness 342 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 3: and death, which really pissed off the judge. I think 343 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 3: it was day four that Rebecca Mussler, who left the 344 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 3: FLDS after Warren Jeff's father, Rulan died. She had been 345 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 3: married to Rulan and she didn't want to marry Warren. 346 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 3: She left and she testified. She came in wearing a 347 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 3: red shirt, which is a forbidden color in the FLDS, 348 00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: and a tight black skirt, spike heels, hair ironed, and 349 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 3: I think a described as having the confidence and friendliness 350 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 3: of a cruise ship director. She explained how the church worked, 351 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 3: described the victims who were not going to be present 352 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 3: in the courtroom. 353 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: And just built the case. 354 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 3: But it was Jeff's own words from that priesthood record 355 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 3: that really sealed his fate. It was so detailed, you 356 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: got a real insight into every move he made, how 357 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 3: he would bring young women into his room and the 358 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: state introduced an audio tape in which he is instructing 359 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: a dozen of his wives, including the fifteen year old 360 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 3: who was part of this trial, to have group sex 361 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: with him, and the prosecutor then showed other records like 362 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 3: DNA that showed that Jeff's had a baby with this girl. 363 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 3: So that sort of wrapped up the first the fifteen 364 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 3: year old part of the case. Then they had to 365 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 3: turn to the twelve year old and that's the aggravated 366 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,639 Speaker 3: sexual assault charge. And they showed the photographs of the 367 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: marriage between Warren and Mary Anne, and then played an 368 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 3: audio recording. 369 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 2: He apparently recorded a lot, and in this case. 370 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 3: Had a reding of himself having sex with Marianne and 371 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 3: saying her full name and her responding and the parents 372 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 3: are there and everything. 373 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 2: So that's played. 374 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 3: The reaction in the courtroom I remember was it was 375 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 3: just like stunned. 376 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 1: I think what of the people, the devout people in 377 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 1: the courtroom who were standing with him. Was that a 378 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: similar reaction or was it just sort of it doesn't 379 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: really matter. 380 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 3: They left, They were not there during that when the 381 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: recording was played. 382 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: Was there a warning from the judge or something beforehand? 383 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 3: No, anything that was really incriminating to Warren. I seem 384 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: to remember that they were not there. I assume that 385 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: Warren just told them today, don't come or something similar, 386 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: you know, But I don't think it would have changed 387 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 3: anything for them. Everybody knew what was going on. 388 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: It's still hard for me to understand how that can 389 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: be justified in the church, how they justified it. 390 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's similar to the way that anybody 391 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 3: will follow a leader who they feel it has. 392 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: Is the mouthpiece of God. 393 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 3: I think if you have a certain background and you're 394 00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 3: just told never to question that, even when it's really 395 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 3: harmful if you disagree. Obviously, there were people who did 396 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: leave of their own accord. Some weren't expelled, they'd left 397 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 3: and escaped. But a lot of times it's hard to 398 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 3: escape because you have to get not just yourself out, 399 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 3: but a bunch of kids or a sibling, and. 400 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: Then what are your resources? You don't have a job. 401 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 3: Well, now, there is at least one group that I 402 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 3: know of up around Short Creek for people who leave. 403 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: So he is representing himself still, which is interesting because 404 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: I think the chord insists that you have somebody sitting 405 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: with you, so there's no problem with appeals and stuff. 406 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: But you can't go back and say, well, I changed 407 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: my mind and I didn't tell anybody, and I should 408 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: have had an a journey. Yeah, okay, so he had 409 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: somebody who probably was just keeping his mouth. 410 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 3: Shit. I'm assuming closing arguments, I think, or no, or sentencing. 411 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 3: Maybe it was sentencing when the lawyer came back on 412 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 3: the scene. 413 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 2: What was Warren like in court? 414 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: Would we describe him as this charismatic No, the opposite. 415 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: I think that was part of it. 416 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 3: You always hear about how a leader like this has 417 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 3: a lot of charisma and it's very charming, and he was. 418 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 3: He had none of that going on, absolutely none. 419 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: Just to catch you up, I'm talking with Texas Monthly 420 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: magazine reporter Katie Vine about a remarkable story in Texas. 421 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: She covered the twenty thirteen trial of Warren Jeff's, the 422 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: president and prophet of the FLDS, the Fundamentalist Church of 423 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Jeff's was charged with 424 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: the aggravated sexual assault of a twelve year old and 425 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: the sexual assault of a fifteen year old. Meanwhile, his 426 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: family and the faithful sit nearby. 427 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 3: I sat next to his brother Lyle in the courtroom. 428 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: I think it was during closing arguments. Warren just sort 429 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 3: of stood there for a long time, maybe thirty minutes, 430 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 3: maybe longer, and then said, I think I am at peace. 431 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 3: I turned to Lyle and I said, what's going on? 432 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 3: And he's gotten into trouble himself over the past couple 433 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 3: of years. But he just shrugged and then he fell asleep. 434 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 3: So you hata that was just sort of a mysterious 435 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: part of the experience. He had brought in a faithful 436 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 3: member and put him on the stand and asked if 437 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 3: he was happy. The guy looked to me sort of 438 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 3: scared to death because a lot of the questions that 439 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 3: Warren was asking could have gotten him into trouble the law. 440 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: Look, what was he asking? 441 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 3: Things like getting close to asking questions about do you 442 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 3: have underage wives kind of thing, or. 443 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: Have you married off? 444 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 3: I mean, there were just so many instances where a 445 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 3: lot of us were kind of like, where is this going? 446 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 3: Like you really don't you still don't get it that 447 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: this is illegal, that this is a problem. 448 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 2: What was he trying? I don't think that's English that 449 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 2: he was not. This was not a pole that people 450 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: could leave if they wanted to. People are happy. 451 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 3: They like me, Yeah, this is good, and I have 452 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 3: the answers. I think he believes that he is the chosen. 453 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 3: There is video of him talking with one of his 454 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 3: followers and he tells the follower, I'm a fraud basically. 455 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 2: So he has moments where I think he must know, 456 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: but then the rest. 457 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 3: Of the time he's just boosting himself up and saying like, yeah, 458 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: I'm the mouthpiece of God and I have all the answers, 459 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 3: and I should not question my judgment. 460 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: And we saw that. 461 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: I think even in the courtroom, I think he thought, 462 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 3: I mean, he hasn't had many challengers in his lifetime, 463 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 3: and so to stand in a courtroom. 464 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: I think he thought that he still had this power. 465 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: What I was going to ask was I'm actually surprised 466 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 1: that he even was willing to acknowledge the court in 467 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: any way, you know where. I think that there are 468 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: instances where people who are cult leaders who just kind 469 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: of say, this is not my realm. I don't mean 470 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: to listen to you. He obviously knew he had to 471 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: play the game. 472 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 2: I think so. 473 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 3: And I think whether the drama was intentional or not, 474 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 3: there was big drama in the way that he presented 475 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: the court, with the long periods of silence at some 476 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,560 Speaker 3: times and then other times just talking for an hour 477 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 3: in these sort of halting phrases. Just bizarre, but it 478 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 3: kept the jury's attention, the judge's attention, and certainly the 479 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,280 Speaker 3: rest of the court room. We were all just wondering, 480 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 3: does he know what this looks like? And I couldn't say. 481 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 3: I think he has been surrounded by his followers for 482 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 3: so long that he maybe doesn't have a firm grasp 483 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: on how other people perceive him. And I don't think 484 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 3: he was playing the game necessarily. I think he just 485 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: I don't think he gets it. I think probably any 486 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 3: narcissistic personality. And then we got the sentencing. Twas awful 487 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 3: because that's when you really got the full scope of 488 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 3: his misdeeds. You think you've heard so many awful things 489 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 3: up to this point that you figure that's maybe the 490 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: extent of it. But then his nephew took the stand 491 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: and said Jeff's raped him when he was five. One 492 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: woman testified that Jeff's molested her when she was seven, 493 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 3: and there were witnesses to other criminal activity. I remember 494 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 3: thinking back to when they first moved to Texas, and 495 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: folks thought that they were maybe like the Amish. 496 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 2: I mean, what a joke. 497 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: You know, he's a monster. So he got life in prison. 498 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 3: He's in East Texas. I followed up a little bit 499 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 3: on all this. My understanding from the investigator in short Creak, 500 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 3: Sam Brower, is that Lawren still calls the shots from prison. 501 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 3: He told me quote, he has broken down the family 502 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 3: structure of the FLDS in the past few years, so 503 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: that there are no more marriages in the FLDS. Husbands 504 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 3: and wives have been dissolved and children have caretakers. Now, 505 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 3: procreation takes place in a ritual by one of the 506 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,719 Speaker 3: twelve high priests assigned to impregnate women. Husbands and wives 507 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 3: can shake hands, but for no more than three seconds. 508 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: They've left Texas. 509 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, they've left Texas and are now scattered around the country. 510 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 3: I think a third Sam told me, had been kicked out. 511 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 3: But they're in just various sort of houses of hiding 512 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 3: around the US and maybe beyond. 513 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: I don't know, is there any hope that he'll get 514 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: out or is this a horror. 515 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 3: He's getting Outdel's a hunger strike every once in a while, 516 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 3: but I don't think he's ever. 517 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 2: What's his demand with the hunger strike. 518 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 3: That the door's open and he be released right and 519 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 3: then he's there for life. 520 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 2: I wonder how he's received by other inmates. And did 521 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 2: you try to interview him or no? I'm assuming you did, sure, 522 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: but you're not going to get to him. 523 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 3: No. I approached when he was on the bench outside 524 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 3: the courtroom. 525 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: It wasn't much of an interaction. 526 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: In the array of stories that you've covered, I mean, 527 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: how long have you been doing this journey? 528 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 2: Three years? 529 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 3: Wow? 530 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: In the twenty three years, where does this story fit 531 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: in into your kind of portfolio? I mean, what did 532 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: you want people to know from your story? Because you 533 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 1: did several of them. 534 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 3: I do sort of read anything that comes out about 535 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: them generally because I just remain interested in the people involved. 536 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 3: Every story's different, but this one had more unexpected twists 537 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 3: and turns. All I knew going in was that four 538 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: hundred some children had been taken from their parents and 539 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: then returned, and that's kind of all I started with. 540 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 3: So everything that came out with these dictations and other allegations, 541 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 3: the whole world that he had set up seemed too 542 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 3: horrible to be real to me, I think then you 543 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 3: had to acknowledge that it was real. I mean, there 544 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 3: were things that I was hearing in the beginning about 545 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 3: this temple bed that he wanted constructed, and I'd seen 546 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 3: his requirements for the temple bed on paper, how it 547 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: was to be built and what it was going to 548 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 3: be used for, and it was for impregnating his wives 549 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 3: so that there would sort of a quorum around him 550 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 3: at the time. And I just thought, this sounds like 551 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: some horror fantasy that someone is having, right. I was skeptical, 552 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 3: and then it turned out that that was absolutely true. 553 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 3: So I guess the lessons for me were, yes, be skeptical, 554 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: but I wasn't prepared for things that awful to be true. 555 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 2: They seemed so far out. 556 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,719 Speaker 3: You know, you hear about other groups and which terrible 557 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 3: things have happened Waco. I guess this is sort of 558 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 3: what happens sometimes where you just think, well, that seems 559 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 3: like somebody's got a lot of time in their hands 560 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 3: and it's just sort of making things up, But well, 561 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: that's real. 562 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 2: Who were the most interesting people in the story? 563 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:14,479 Speaker 1: For you? 564 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 3: Orn is pretty interesting as horrible as he is. When 565 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 3: you're watching history unfold, you know, when you're sitting in 566 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 3: a courtroom watching somebody. This was history in the making. 567 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 3: This was a crazy chapter in Texas history and in 568 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 3: FLDS history, so him Mary Anne. As brief as that 569 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: encounter was, it was surprising, although maybe I shouldn't have 570 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 3: been surprised. And her mother and caretaker, everybody was so 571 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 3: bubbly and happy to see me, and I just thought 572 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 3: that was so strange, or you know, we visited the 573 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 3: creamery where there was a young woman who was in 574 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 3: charge of making the cheese, and she was listening to 575 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 3: choral music over the speakers, and she just seemed so happy. 576 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 3: You know. I wanted to to be as fair to 577 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 3: them as possible, I think, and try to see it 578 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 3: through their eyes. I know that the lawyers who represented 579 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 3: the mothers definitely have a different perspective from a lot 580 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 3: of others who thought that the children needed to be 581 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 3: taken away permanently, and including the boys from families who 582 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: had shown that they had kicked out other sons. I 583 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 3: think the argument being what will prevent you from not 584 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 3: kicking out all the boys in your family and marrying 585 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 3: off the girls, and not just marrying them off, but 586 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: impregnating them. It would be like somebody deciding I want 587 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 3: my daughter to have my neighbors my seventy year old 588 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 3: neighbor's child, and so she will now do that with 589 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 3: my permission. There were people in the courtroom whom I 590 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 3: met who said, we all have different traditions. But to me, 591 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 3: I mean, just from a human the rights perspective, when 592 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 3: you are impregnating somebody, you are sort of chaining them 593 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: to that spot for sex is bad enough, But it 594 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 3: seems to me that the impregnation from my perspective, was 595 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: something that made it different. 596 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: Well, certainly traps them right. Did you have a sense 597 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: for what day to day life was in this situation, FLDS, 598 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: what day to day life for. 599 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 2: A young woman might have been and the WIFC. Yes, 600 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: they worked. You mentioned a kream. What is the ranch 601 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: even like? 602 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 3: Oh, it was fantastic, was beautiful, It was big. They 603 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 3: had a big orchard, They had beautiful gardens, giant wooden 604 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 3: homes that they had built. Their amazing with construction. There 605 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: was a big white temple. The day to day I 606 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 3: mean I think they they worked a lot. The young 607 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 3: boys too, did a lot of construction workout When you 608 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 3: were driving around. There would be a ten year old 609 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 3: driving a forklift kind of thing. They worked. 610 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: Did they produce products? Like where money? What did money 611 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: come from? It was a lot of construction. 612 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: They were very well known for construction in the area, 613 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 3: and they got a lot of construction jobs, which I 614 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: think bothered their competition because in some cases they were 615 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: basically using child labor, you know. 616 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, so they would get contracts. They never had state contracts, 617 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: I'm assuming, but they would just get contracts from other businesses. Wow, Okay, 618 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: did anybody ever trace funding for them? I'm assuming the 619 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: government did at some point. 620 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 3: Utah because Utah has been kind of wrestling with them 621 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 3: longer than Texas did. They found a lot of issues 622 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 3: with food stamps scandal and other kind. 623 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 2: Of tax issues. They were desperate. It could have been 624 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 2: like an al capone in Utah. 625 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 3: I think they really nailed them that pretty hard. 626 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like financially took a big hit. 627 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: So the day to day life you were saying that, 628 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, everybody were and there was probably daily church. 629 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: They looked incredibly healthy. Everybody talks about this. Why the 630 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: women who were taken into custody were considered underage because 631 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 3: they only eat organic food that they grew and made. 632 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 3: They live in this sort of country setting, and nobody's 633 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 3: really overweight because working. And you know, that was one 634 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 3: of the things that came up when the children were 635 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 3: taken away and they were given hot dogs or something 636 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 3: like that, or sloppy Joe's, and they would get like 637 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 3: terribly upset stomachs because they were used to eating food 638 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 3: that they'd made. 639 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 2: Not process Wow. So that was a big adjustment. 640 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: And then how long were that You might have said this, 641 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: but as a reminder of how long were the kids 642 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: out of custody before they were returned, I could look 643 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: it up because that's Siri or wherever was it foster 644 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: care that they would go into froster care and group homes. 645 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 2: That must have just been such a culture shock for them. 646 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. Yeah, especially the older ones. 647 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 3: Okay, so it looks like May twenty ninth, and they 648 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 3: were taken April, so a month April third, May twenty ninth, 649 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 3: so two months. 650 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 2: It's a long time. 651 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 1: It's a long time to have a different to be 652 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: in such a different culture. I mean, that's incredible. Yeah, 653 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: that must have been so traumatizing for the kids. So now, 654 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 1: do we have an idea of how many members are 655 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: still active members of FLDS. 656 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 3: I mean, Sam Brower, the investigator, told me that a 657 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 3: third had been kicked out of the ten thousand. Of 658 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 3: those ten thousand, I don't know how many are still 659 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 3: at Short Creek and how many of the sort of 660 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 3: chosen are in houses of hiding around. So I don't 661 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,160 Speaker 3: know what that breakdown is, but so maybe you. 662 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 2: Know sixty five hundred or something like that. 663 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: In stories like this as a reporter, is it difficult 664 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: to process the I could write murder stories all day long, 665 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: even husband's killing wives. But the child aspect of this 666 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: is very upsetting for me. Is that hard for you? 667 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember if you have kids or not, 668 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: it'll be hard. Yeah, I mean is that as a mom? 669 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: Is that hard for you as a parent? Or do 670 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: you have to check that at the door because this 671 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: is a story you have to cover. 672 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 3: There were definitely times when I could think of it 673 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 3: as a story. There were times in the courtroom when 674 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 3: audio evidence was being played, for example, or when witnesses 675 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 3: were discussing their own experiences with Warren. That was that 676 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 3: I did not have, let's say, a professional reaction. 677 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,200 Speaker 2: It was a very personal reaction to yourself or to 678 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 2: anybody else just sitting there. Yeah, it was very upsetting. 679 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: I find it very hard to be unbiased or objective 680 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,359 Speaker 1: in cases like that. 681 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 3: I am glad that I got to see the YFC 682 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,279 Speaker 3: ranch for that reason. I mean, to have their perspective 683 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 3: to try to understand, because I of course really did 684 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 3: want to try to understand where they're coming from. This 685 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 3: is not the first time a group like this has 686 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 3: landed in Texas, and it won't be the last time, 687 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 3: and so I think it's always important to try to 688 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: understand what's going on. 689 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: But there's no doubt out it was. Yeah, there were 690 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: times when it was extremely upsetting. 691 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,479 Speaker 1: Are there lessons learned from this? Do you think, either 692 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: for you or for just the country? I mean, I 693 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 1: think it's hard to know what's best sometimes. I think 694 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: we have for me, I think we have this sort 695 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: of set of standards that not everybody adheres to. And 696 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: how can you predict what's going to happen with someone 697 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: with a group and where they're going to head and 698 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: can we do preemptive strikes? And Yeah, I think it's 699 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,240 Speaker 1: a it's a really difficult story to cover. 700 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: And I think any. 701 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 3: Case where you have children religious liberties and some potential danger, 702 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 3: and I mean, I'm sure that there are circumstances with 703 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 3: you know, very sick children and certain religions that don't 704 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 3: want medical interference. Right, those are hard calls, but in 705 00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 3: the end, usually the state besides, you can let this 706 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 3: child just die. 707 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's difficult because that wasn't necessarily the case here, right, 708 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: they had to return them. And I'm sure that must 709 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: have been difficult for so many of the people in 710 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: CPS or you know, these different agencies. That must have 711 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: been really heartbreaking to try to figure out the right 712 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,439 Speaker 1: thing to do well. 713 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 3: And I think part of it was trying to understand 714 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 3: the family unit. Usually you as a caseworker, you know, 715 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,080 Speaker 3: you identify who are the parents and who are the children, 716 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: and I think in this situation it was much more complex. 717 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 3: Whether it was fabrication or true, probably a mix of both. 718 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 3: There were kids who were living with people who were 719 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 3: not their parents and saying these were my parents. I 720 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 3: think sometimes they were maybe covering for underage mothers. And overall, 721 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 3: I think that really freaked out the investigators who were 722 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 3: interviewing the children and wondering like, what is the family 723 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 3: unit struck here? I can't get a handle on it. 724 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: We've got to make a decision. The sun is going down. 725 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 2: Where's this kid going? If we leave? 726 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 3: Now they are leaving and we'll never see these children again. 727 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 3: I think there was a lot in play there. The 728 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 3: perception at the time was that the state overstepped, and 729 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 3: now there are you know, in hindsight, there are plenty 730 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 3: of people who say that was one hundred percent the 731 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 3: right call because a million reasons, but. 732 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: That taking the kids away was the right call. 733 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, And then you have you're supposed to work at 734 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,399 Speaker 3: case by case, child by child, right, is this child 735 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 3: in danger? 736 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 2: Is it not? 737 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 3: In bulk? Of course, never do that, but take a 738 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 3: child by child and try to figure out each kid's situation. 739 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 2: And they just didn't have time to do that. 740 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,239 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, all of them 741 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: were beaten around the head. 742 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 4: It was as horrid a description as you can possibly imagine. 743 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 4: And they talked about blood in that bedroom, especially being 744 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 4: halfway up to the ceiling and covering everything. And then 745 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 4: there's at least one of them is killed in another room, 746 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:21,440 Speaker 4: so there's a pool there. 747 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 2: If you love historical true crime. 748 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: Please check out my books American Sherlock and Death In 749 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: the year this has been an exactly right tenfold more 750 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,720 Speaker 1: Media Production Alexis and Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan 751 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: is our sound designer. Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. 752 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath does the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, 753 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 1: and Ilsa Brink designed the website. The executive producers are 754 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 1: Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words 755 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on 756 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: Twitter at tenfold more. If you are an advertiser interested 757 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: in advertising on our show, go to midroll dot com 758 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 1: slash ads and if you know of a historical true 759 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: crime story that could if you some attention from the 760 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info at 761 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 1: Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen, subscribe and leave us a review 762 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.