WEBVTT - Why Gen Z Loves 2016 Nostalgia - The Story 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.840 Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm Cara Price. This is the story. 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.840 As I've mentioned many many, many, many, many many many 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:27.200 times on this show, I am extremely online, and that 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.440 means that I am exposed to a lot of things 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.279 that I find interesting, but I don't really understand because 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:39.479 these trends change really quickly, and the people propelling culture 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.760 forward are arguably a little bit younger than me. They're 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.279 gen Z and Jen Alpha. I need some help. So 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:51.319 our guest today is what I guess we would call 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.160 a trend analyst and a youth whisperer. Her name is 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.120 Casey Lewis, and she writes a substact that I've read 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:57.640 for as. 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:58.760 Long as it's been in existence. 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:00.760 It's actually like the only one that I read with 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:01.880 any regular cadence. 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:03.280 It's called After School. 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.520 And I rarely do this, but if you're listening right now, 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.360 you should subscribe to it if you care about youth 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.840 culture or the Internet at all. Every installment of After 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.560 School is this curated grab bag of current trends, cultural moments, 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.600 and analysis. So as we look ahead to what twenty 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:23.399 twenty six has in store, I thought it would be 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.600 helpful to reflect on the ethos of youth culture at 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.360 this very very weird moment. Casey and I started our 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:35.200 conversation with a trend that overtook many Instagram feeds this 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.560 past weekend that unfortunately, even parents were doing young parents 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.440 and old parents, which was posting pictures of yourself back 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:47.760 in twenty sixteen. And while this felt incredibly random, Casey 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.160 told me that it actually didn't come out of nowhere. 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:51.280 Here's Casey. 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.680 It's been fascinating because months ago, maybe not nine months ago, 0:01:56.120 --> 0:01:59.720 it was all about millennial cringe, the stomp clap hay 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.680 music coming back. So it went from millennial cringe to 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.040 just the end of the year, the millennial cringe had 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:12.079 morphed into a millennial optimism, young people obsessed with, you know, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.760 the sort of twenty tens of New York I want 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:15.359 to be a hipster. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.720 But now the twenty sixteen thing. 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:22.040 Has built on all of that, and it's it's crazy 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:23.520 having twenty sixteen. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:26.040 You two, like, do you think it was a special year? 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:31.600 No, I mean other than like the first worst news 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:33.480 cycle that ever existed. 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.440 Exactly, it was a weird time in culture. The Cut 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.440 published this piece that was like, you know, we do 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.720 not want to live through this again, and they mentioned 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:45.320 things that happened in twenty sixteen that I'd completely forgotten, 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:51.040 you know, happened then the Pulse nightclub massacre, Brexit, there 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.440 were like multiple horrible police killings. 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:55.480 Politically, it was. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:00.080 A horrible time, but most of the you know, the 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.040 trends around it are just an excuse I think to 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.680 dig back in your photos and show how like cutesy 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:11.400 you looked. People are romanticizing the flower crowns at Coachella, 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:17.280 the chokers, the snapchat filters. I think that young people 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:23.280 associate twenty sixteen with peak whimsy aesthetically, even though having 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.040 lived the twenty sixteen it did not feel particularly whimsical. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:34.000 It was the antithesis of whimsy. So what got me 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.200 interested in talking to you for this particular interview was 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.960 your end of the year review, which was titled Nostalgia, 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:45.000 Economy and Analog Awakening. You sent out two hundred and 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.200 sixty newsletters in twenty twenty five. What was the cultural 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.320 shift that you felt was most overlooked and what was 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:56.080 the kind of thing that surprised you the most. 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.000 I don't think the analog trend is overlooked by any means, 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:05.560 but I think it's hard to over emphasize, like how 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:10.000 big of a thing this tension between analog and AI is, 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:14.040 especially for young people. It feels like every single day 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:18.360 there's headlines around, you know, young people have discovered these 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.719 old school hobbies. I've seen multiple headlines this week around 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:27.479 like Grandma core and at the same time the rise 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.560 of AI, especially in more like tech adjacent corners of 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.560 the Internet. I mean, it's totally taken over the conversation 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.400 in the last year. So I think that the tension 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:40.880 between these two stories is very interesting to me. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.240 There is like an interesting juxtaposition because it feels like 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.280 the AI headlines things coming out of cees are like 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:55.880 industry checkpoints, whereas you're really reporting on things that people 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:59.400 are doing. And I think that what's more interesting to 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.680 me is like what are people doing to combat the 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.600 fatigue of like an influx of like this is how 0:05:07.640 --> 0:05:09.160 you should be using your phone, this is how you 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.080 should be using your computer. And to me, based on 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.080 what you report, it seems like people are like, I 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:15.520 don't want to do any of this stuff. 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.320 Yeah, young people in particular, it seems like they're pushing 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.680 back against this. Even with my end of year Christmas 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:27.280 Hall analysis, a lot of people got iPads specifically to 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.040 many of them didn't have any social media on their iPads. 0:05:32.160 --> 0:05:35.120 They just had it for games and Pinterest. So this 0:05:35.240 --> 0:05:38.560 is like, it's like an interesting tech I know, it's 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:43.680 like almost like catalog behavior or magazine. But you know, 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.320 as adults who have been in the workplace for a while, 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:51.279 I think we're seeing this narrative around using AI to optimize, 0:05:51.400 --> 0:05:55.919 to you know, just be the best like corporate machine 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:58.640 that we can possibly be. And then young people a 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.680 aren't exposed to those headlines and when they are exposed 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.640 to them or trying to push back against them, but 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.080 they are using AI for homework, yes, exactly. 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:10.760 So I've noticed that some brands have taken to the 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.440 analog awakening. And I've thought for a long time that 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.680 unplugging or taking time away from your phone would become 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.720 the ultimate luxury. But is gen z buying into this? 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.159 And how about gen Alpha? 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:27.200 So gen Alpha is interesting because in my research, a 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:32.080 lot of these kids have very limited tech access, and 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.919 in interviews I've done with you know, different kids, some 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.839 of them you know, maybe only have an hour a 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:41.440 day and they spend that watching YouTube videos or YouTube shorts. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:44.720 Others have you know, kind of as much screen time 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:46.880 as they want, but they can't be on TikTok. Very 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.960 few of the Gen Alphas I've talked to, and I've 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.839 probably talked to fifty in the last year, very few 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.760 of them are allowed on TikTok, but they still are 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:58.280 able to consume that kind of content via reels or 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:03.160 other platforms. I think that Gen Alpha is generally too 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:09.080 young to really have a sense of being unplugged equals 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:13.440 luxury or you know, freedom, because they've grown up in 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:16.960 a time of you know, being in front of screens, 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:19.960 but also their parents moderating the screens one way or 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.480 the other. So it'll be fascinating to see as they're 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.360 able to make decisions for themselves. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.080 Another thing is the phone bands. 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.120 You know, so many schools in the last year have 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.920 band phones pretty widely, and so their screen time has 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:36.200 always been so you know, they're sort of like babysat 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.040 So will they think that being able to be unplugged 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.640 equals luxury Not at first, I don't think, But for 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.680 Gen Z and also millennials, the twenty twenty six ins 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.520 and outs tiktoks that I watched being offline was a 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.600 huge in brain rot, a huge out all of these 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:57.480 words around, like being super online and you know, knowing 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.560 these sort of like week to week, day to day 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.840 trends isn't cool anymore. It's much better, according to the 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.440 ins and outs, to be unplugged, to read books, to 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:08.920 limit your screen time in the morning. Like they were 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.400 imposing all of these rules around screen time, which you know, 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:15.400 it's fascinating because I think at the end of the day, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.960 having an awareness of what's happening online and being ahead 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:23.680 of the trend cycle is never not going to be 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:29.080 a flex but they do want to be nice to 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:32.720 their brains a little bit and limit the doom scrolling. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.760 What do you know about school phone bands? Like how 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:40.120 has this affected. 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:44.200 Things across the country. So many public schools have banned phones. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.439 Private schools are a little more you know, they kind 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:50.840 of create the rules and yeah, but there were so 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:55.160 many articles around like, you know, kids are socializing again, 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:58.480 the lunch room is loud again, and a lot of 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.040 these articles interviewed both teachers and students, and it seems 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.280 like it's very much net positive. Of course, some kids 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:08.760 are figuring out how to get around it. But if 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.520 everyone is sort of like not supposed to be on 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.040 their phone. Then being the one kid that gets arounded 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.240 by like having an extra device in your pocket, like 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:17.040 who are you going to talk to? Like, you know, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:19.760 there's there's really no reason to do that if everyone 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.360 else doesn't have their phone. So I do think that 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.120 it is good for education, but I think that that 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.600 being limited during the day to check what's happening just 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.720 will make people sort of binge a bit more before 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:36.440 and after. But I do like the you know, the 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.800 discovery of analog at the lunch room. I will say 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:44.440 earlier this week, Peugh published a study around phone band 0:09:44.480 --> 0:09:48.440 sentiment and they talk to adults and teens and something 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.320 like half of the teens were okay with like phone bands, 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.560 but they did not believe that it should be banned 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.880 during free periods in lunch room. 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:58.520 So there is pushback like. 0:09:58.480 --> 0:09:59.360 This, what are we gonna do? 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:03.160 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not like kids are generally like 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.480 phone ban good. You know, like you're never going to 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.040 want to be limited to things like that, Like you 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:10.319 don't want to be patrolled. 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:12.920 Yeah, I wouldn't want to be patrolled either. 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.760 As a complete pivot, you mentioned the decline of the 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:17.600 dating app. 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:19.040 Can you fill me. 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.800 In on what sex and romance looks like for gen 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.480 z because they're certainly, I mean they're certainly reading a 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:25.280 lot of romance. 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.240 Yeah, yeah, And you know they're reading a lot of romance, 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.000 and I think some of them are coming into their 0:10:31.080 --> 0:10:34.400 own sexually from the romance to see. You know, they're 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.760 realizing what they want and they're realizing like how to 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.000 kind of put it into words. So I, you know, 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.640 haven't consumed a lot of romance to see myself, But 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:46.320 I do think it's net positive in many reasons. You know, 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.680 people are reading more, but people are also realizing what, 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.880 especially like women's passion can look like. 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.559 I this last. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:01.760 Year, maybe last two years, in terms of gender and 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.360 sex and dating, it's been so complicated, I think, and 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.360 made me just so grateful that I'm a millennial and 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.080 not like in it because I believe I was on 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:15.600 dating apps. Twenty sixteen a really good time for dating apps, yes, 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.040 peak and years around it, yeah. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:18.840 Peak dating app. 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:20.880 Like one thing you can say about twenty sixteen is 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.200 that Hinder was great, But I think that dating apps 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.920 haven't evolved, and so young people feel as though they're 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:32.000 just endlessly swiping to no end, and then when they 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:34.360 are going on a date with someone that they meet 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.920 on a dating app, it's not a good match, and 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.600 so they feel like they've wasted their time. It feels 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.400 like part of that is the apps have to monetize, 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.040 and so the experience is worse. But in the last 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.199 year two years, there have been a million headlines around 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.880 all of the other ways young people are meeting in person. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:57.439 So obviously the cliched run club, but there's a million 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:05.679 other speed dating, having a matchmaker, having your friends do creative. 0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:06.520 Google doc for you. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.120 You know, there's just so many different ways that people 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.119 are trying to meet that aren't. 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:12.560 The dating apps. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.080 I think we'll see a dating app comeback. I think 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:16.839 that that isn't really inevitable. 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:17.920 I do think so. 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.240 I think that the dating apps will realize they're ruining 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:25.320 the experience by monetization, and maybe the largest ones won't. 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.720 You know, they have to answer to shareholders, the ones 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.120 that are public, But that gives a great opportunity for 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:35.880 challengers to enter the space and make an actually good experience. 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.359 But at the same time, I think what happened politically 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:42.319 the election last year just created so much beyond the 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.960 dating apps, beyond the it's hard to meet people. It 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:48.480 created so much friction between men and women, and you know, 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.679 I felt like you couldn't trust men who didn't feel 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:53.680 like my husband's great but I was so angry at 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.600 men for you know, And so I think that does 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.360 add like some complications to the gender dynamic for people 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.640 who are seeking out ooh identify a straight and are 0:13:02.679 --> 0:13:05.480 seeking out an opposis ex partner. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:28.360 After the break out dating apps in AI Lovers stay 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:56.800 with Us. You actually mentioned that gen Z are eighty 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.640 three percent more open to developing relationships with AI chatbots. 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.680 Is that a trend that you see continuing? 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.640 Like, because as we talk about sort of nostalgic core analog, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:13.679 where does the relationship with a chatbot really fit into things? 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:14.520 For gen Z? 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.520 One sort of asterisk with that stat. It was cited 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:22.200 in a New Yorker piece, But it is a survey 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:25.640 that has been commissioned by a some sort of like 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.600 AI company, and so it's always hard to know with those. 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:33.280 I mean, I still find it interesting and like worth considering, 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.600 but at the same time, it's it gives me pause 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.760 often and that one especially, But I do. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:40.200 Think you know. 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.560 The cut wrote a piece about AI as my boyfriend. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.800 I think is the reddit the subreddit that has seventy 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.040 five thousand members, like people like, even if we don't 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.680 have any friends who are in relationships, they HI or. 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.480 I have friends that are in pretty serious like parasocial 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.440 relationships with chat thoughts. 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:04.320 Yes, yes, and I think that it's not something that 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.840 we're really like talking about. And one thing that kind 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.560 of made me realize, like, oh, this is a little 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:13.240 bit deeper than I realized. At the end of the year, 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:17.440 there was a TikTok trend where girls were asking chatchept 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:20.680 the craziest questions that they had asked chatchip. It's sort 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:22.400 of like a chatchepte. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.560 Wrapped yeah yeah. 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:29.680 And so they would post screenshots of the response and 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.280 the way that that chat cheepe deep talk to these 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.200 girls like oh girl, Like it was crazy. It was 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.440 so crazy, and it made me realize like, oh, they 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.400 are talking to them like if not boyfriends, like their 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.040 best friend. Like there is some real parasocial relationships happening, 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.480 and I think for a lot of people, they're not 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:54.120 like I'm going to seek out a relationship with an 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.760 AI chatbot, but they just find themselves suddenly emotionally attached 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:00.960 and then it's like, oh shit, I'm in it with 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:01.840 this chatbot. 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:03.760 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:05.680 And I think it's also I mean, I don't know, 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.600 I think that there is even I have friends that 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.800 are married who are still like very attached to what 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:17.360 a chatbot thinks. I think we have since the kind 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:20.480 of dawn of the personal computer. I think this predates 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.880 the phone. Like we have learned to outsource our emotions 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:27.560 onto devices, you. 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.720 Know what I mean? Like, yeah, am I sad? Am? 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.840 I happy? Am I excited? Am I confused? Like let 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.760 me use a device? You know? 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.240 And it used to be that we like picked up 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:39.520 a book or read a. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.120 You know, and like And I don't mean to sound 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.880 old fashioned, but I think that this idea that like 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.160 we can sort of outsource our emotional need to something 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:56.680 digital is like the most indicative human evolutionary change of 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.800 our time. And it's why there's so much rage online, 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:03.680 why there's so much joy online. But like, I think 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.280 the chatbot has like become an extension of this need 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.639 that we have to be in constant contact. And the 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.359 irony is that, like I think we are in less 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.800 contact with people, but we are in more contact than 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:22.560 ever with something. And I think every time a new 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:28.840 digital tool gets introduced, like human attention is co opted. 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:30.720 I think that is so true. 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.880 So I could not agree more like young people are 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:36.679 more lonelier than ever, like of course they're going to 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.760 turn to AI. And also, you know, we've seen such 0:17:39.800 --> 0:17:42.800 a rise in therapy speak, and you know, everyone knows 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.040 that they should go to therapy. You know, everyone needs therapy, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:49.359 but so a few people can afford therapy. And you know, 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.040 even if you sort of scoff at that and then 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:54.159 you find yourself in a hard moment and you're like, 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.280 I don't know how to process this. I'm going to 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:00.360 ask the all knowing chat GPT, well know, And it's 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.760 very easy to see how someone could turn to that. 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:07.359 And I also believe that at least I don't know. 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:08.400 Do you spend time on the. 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:13.080 Substack notes, I don't know, Okay, so it's it's substack 0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.160 sort of Twitter competitor, But among the writers on that 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.720 are very very vocally anti AI, and I do see 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.560 that kind of poke up here and there on TikTok too. 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:27.200 For instance, when a rumor that Pinterest was going to 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.000 be acquired by open Ai through all of these like 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.560 never Ai people. But I have this feeling that like 0:18:33.920 --> 0:18:36.320 no one is being honest about how much they're actually 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.600 using AI in the day to day. And I could 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:40.600 be wrong. This is just my theory, but you know 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:44.160 the theory the people who are the loudest against something 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.280 are either secretly like fascinated by it or like actively 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.560 using it. But it's just it's so easy. It's it's 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.720 readily available to you. And I just think that, you know, 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.520 everyone is using it more than they're kind of letting on. 0:18:58.160 --> 0:18:58.240 No. 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.960 I think that's absolutely I think that's apout right. And 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:02.880 I think it's like even if you don't think you're 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.080 using it, you're using it right, you know. 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.240 Like if you're searching something on Google, you're using it 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:10.119 at the pop is. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.560 So I want to talk a little bit about maxing, 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.800 because this was a trend that we saw this year. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.920 Everything was about maxing, and there's looks maxing, social maxing, 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:24.119 productivity maxing. Now there's friction maxing, which might be the 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:27.720 trend of twenty twenty six. Is maxing the evolution of 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.119 a word or a behavior that has already existed, or 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.199 is maxing an entirely new phenomenon. 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:34.760 I think we've always maxed. 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:39.760 I think, to use another trending sort of phrase, I 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:44.080 think it is optimization core adjacent. I think it's I 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:48.320 think about as a teenager, young teenager reading seventeen and 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:52.399 teen Vogue, you know, the health advice, the fitness advice, 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.800 like I tried probably when I was like twelve, I 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:58.360 tried to do every single like that was my bible. 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:00.400 It's kind of sad to talk, well, but. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.000 If I could follow the advice of these editors, like 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.360 I could be a perfect specimen, like I was obsessed. 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.240 I think many young women are obsessed with this idea 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:12.840 of perfection, and I think that that's very much Maxine 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:17.159 the teen boy, you know, association with Maxine. I think 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:21.720 that the Andrew Huberman's, the Joe Rogan's, the manisphere that 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.960 has sort of taken it to another level. 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.600 But I think to your point, we've always maxed. 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:28.760 I mean, I think fitness culture has always been a 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.119 thing for men. I do think that the Internet in general. 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:36.840 Has like called to the four a brighter spotlight on 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.720 the sort of vulnerabilities of men and their looks in 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.439 a way that when I was growing up boys just 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:43.479 didn't talk about it. 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.879 Definitely, it does seem like there's more visible pressure on 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:49.560 young men to look a certain way. 0:20:49.960 --> 0:20:50.240 Though. 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.320 My brother is a year older than me, and when 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.199 we were in high school, I remember he was like 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.199 at one point, this is going to embarrass him if 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.439 he listens to this, but he was like obsessed with 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.080 like getting his cap to be like like, I mean, 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:04.600 this is a tale as old as time. Teen boys, 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:08.120 young boys, they've always had pressures on them to look 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.199 a certain way. Yeah, the resources of the you know, 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:15.879 all of these YouTube guys who are dispensing advice like 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:18.840 that didn't exist as much. Like if my brother wanted 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.880 to really truly like learn about what we now call 0:21:21.920 --> 0:21:24.600 looks maxine, he could maybe read a book about like 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.480 the like exercise, you know, like the physiology. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:29.840 I totally total. 0:21:29.920 --> 0:21:34.000 But now, but now the resources are packaged very differently, 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.840 And I think that's how so many of these boys 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.439 who discover looks maxine then become you know, slightly red pilled, 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:41.800 and then it's like a whole different thing. 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:42.520 Yeah. 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.680 Yeah, before I let you go, I just want to 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:50.920 play a quick game with you. You very kindly included 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.560 a buzzword section for people like me and I want 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:56.000 to read through a few of these and you can 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:57.800 give me a don Would you be comfortable if I 0:21:57.840 --> 0:21:58.119 did that? 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:00.840 Yeah? Yeah, I hope, I I hope. I can't I 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:01.520 have them down? 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:07.480 Okay, first one, am A me a livecore? 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:11.000 Am I a live core? 0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:15.959 So? 0:22:16.119 --> 0:22:18.280 This was a pretty wild. 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:19.800 I'm glad we got that on microphone. 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:24.399 Actually, this was a weird micro trend. This was not 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.240 like something that kids nationwide were doing, like you know, 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.480 but kids were filming themselves dropping heavy objects on their 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:36.679