1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young junior. If your 2 00:00:24,556 --> 00:00:27,596 Speaker 1: goal is health, but your body doesn't change, If your 3 00:00:27,636 --> 00:00:31,956 Speaker 1: body size does not change, or even worse in your mind, 4 00:00:32,276 --> 00:00:34,876 Speaker 1: your body size gets bigger, well, you still want to 5 00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:38,636 Speaker 1: pursue health. Is that enough for you? The COVID nineteen 6 00:00:38,676 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: pandemic has forced many of us to consider our health 7 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:44,916 Speaker 1: in new ways, from reporting on our physical vulnerabilities and 8 00:00:44,996 --> 00:00:49,316 Speaker 1: examinations of pre existing conditions to the stories highlighting mental 9 00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: health and our loss of human connections. Just what health 10 00:00:53,636 --> 00:00:57,476 Speaker 1: is can be complicated to define. In the United States, 11 00:00:57,516 --> 00:01:00,676 Speaker 1: there's an often repeated idea that body size and overall 12 00:01:00,756 --> 00:01:06,636 Speaker 1: health are linked. That oversimplification can be problematic. Seventy nine 13 00:01:06,636 --> 00:01:10,436 Speaker 1: percent of weight loss program participants report coping with weight 14 00:01:10,556 --> 00:01:14,396 Speaker 1: stigma by eating more food. And eating disorders have the 15 00:01:14,476 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 1: second highest mortality rate of all mental health disorders, surpassed 16 00:01:18,596 --> 00:01:22,236 Speaker 1: only by opioid addiction. That's according to the National Eating 17 00:01:22,236 --> 00:01:26,516 Speaker 1: Disorders Association. For me, I based my health on my 18 00:01:26,596 --> 00:01:29,836 Speaker 1: blood work, on my consistency with going to the doctor. 19 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 1: For me, it's how much of sleep am I getting? 20 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:35,556 Speaker 1: How much connection am I getting in my relationships, rather 21 00:01:35,676 --> 00:01:37,996 Speaker 1: than am I eating enough fruits and vegetables, and am 22 00:01:37,996 --> 00:01:41,596 Speaker 1: I exercising Precampos used to work in an eating disorder clinic. 23 00:01:41,956 --> 00:01:44,516 Speaker 1: She worked to help her young female clients to restore 24 00:01:44,516 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: their weight, but she wanted to spend even more time 25 00:01:46,996 --> 00:01:50,996 Speaker 1: helping them to redefine their relationships with food and their bodies. 26 00:01:51,436 --> 00:01:55,436 Speaker 1: I think it scares the American public. We live in 27 00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:59,436 Speaker 1: constant disarray with our relationship with food, and it's actually 28 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 1: to a point of bonding. Like we often connect around 29 00:02:04,236 --> 00:02:07,036 Speaker 1: feeling bad about our bodies or feeling bad about food 30 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: or oh, i'm a I'm cheating today, I'm off today. 31 00:02:10,756 --> 00:02:14,236 Speaker 1: Campos is a licensed mental health counselor and body image coach. 32 00:02:14,836 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: She operates from the premise that health at every size 33 00:02:17,836 --> 00:02:20,996 Speaker 1: is achievable. The Health at Every Size framework has been 34 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:25,876 Speaker 1: shown to improve cardio respiratory fitness and reduce psychological distress 35 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:30,516 Speaker 1: and clinically obese people. It deemphasizes weight in favor of 36 00:02:30,516 --> 00:02:35,196 Speaker 1: a focus on overall health. Disordered eating and disconnection from 37 00:02:35,196 --> 00:02:41,796 Speaker 1: your body are solvable problems. Health at every size at 38 00:02:41,836 --> 00:02:46,396 Speaker 1: its core, is the idea that, regardless of our body size, 39 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:51,756 Speaker 1: we have the right to pursue health and I don't 40 00:02:51,756 --> 00:02:55,356 Speaker 1: deal with people's food, but their relationship to food and 41 00:02:55,436 --> 00:02:57,796 Speaker 1: to their body. Talk to me a little bit about 42 00:02:57,796 --> 00:03:01,156 Speaker 1: your journey to becoming a body image coach. I got 43 00:03:01,236 --> 00:03:06,036 Speaker 1: into the work because I lived it, lived life in 44 00:03:06,076 --> 00:03:10,636 Speaker 1: a larger body, and my health was always assumed and 45 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:16,076 Speaker 1: it impacted not only my relationship with my food, but 46 00:03:16,196 --> 00:03:18,236 Speaker 1: with my body as well. What do you mean when 47 00:03:18,276 --> 00:03:21,916 Speaker 1: you say people assumed your health? So my entire life, 48 00:03:22,036 --> 00:03:24,756 Speaker 1: I was made to feel like your body size is 49 00:03:24,796 --> 00:03:29,116 Speaker 1: a problem, and specifically doctors and family members. I did 50 00:03:29,196 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 1: not struggle with an eating disorder in the same way 51 00:03:32,956 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 1: that the girls that I worked with, but I definitely 52 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:40,396 Speaker 1: struggled with disorder eating because we pushed this singular idea 53 00:03:40,476 --> 00:03:43,796 Speaker 1: of what beauty is supposed to be. And so not 54 00:03:43,916 --> 00:03:47,676 Speaker 1: only did I see myself as larger, I also saw 55 00:03:47,716 --> 00:03:51,996 Speaker 1: it as something that was disqualifying. That I would not 56 00:03:52,156 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 1: be as successful in my career, that I would not 57 00:03:54,916 --> 00:03:58,916 Speaker 1: be accepted, that I would not find a romantic partner 58 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:02,556 Speaker 1: that doesn't even align with my values. I believe in 59 00:04:03,596 --> 00:04:06,836 Speaker 1: not judging quote unquote a book by its cover, So 60 00:04:06,956 --> 00:04:09,356 Speaker 1: why am I putting that standard on myself? In the 61 00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 1: last year I've lost a lot of weight, and I 62 00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:15,316 Speaker 1: think one thing I've noticed is like there are for me, 63 00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: I can tell you that there's concrete things that have 64 00:04:17,436 --> 00:04:20,676 Speaker 1: changed about my own body and my own health that 65 00:04:20,756 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 1: are tangible that I can see, whether it's like not 66 00:04:23,636 --> 00:04:25,956 Speaker 1: being out of breath, whatever, all those things that are 67 00:04:25,996 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: connected to being in a smaller body. Absolutely, With all 68 00:04:30,116 --> 00:04:32,876 Speaker 1: of that being said, what do you think is the 69 00:04:32,916 --> 00:04:38,836 Speaker 1: disconnect between actually getting people to be healthy, like just healthy, 70 00:04:39,076 --> 00:04:43,036 Speaker 1: size agnostic, just healthy? What are we lossing here? Health? 71 00:04:43,036 --> 00:04:47,276 Speaker 1: And every size approach is not anti weight loss. It 72 00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:53,396 Speaker 1: is anti intentional weight loss through restrictive measures because we 73 00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:56,276 Speaker 1: don't know what our body's going to do. So for me, 74 00:04:56,436 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 1: in my recovery, my body got bigger, and every time 75 00:05:01,356 --> 00:05:05,676 Speaker 1: I lost weight, my mental health decreased significantly, and so 76 00:05:05,756 --> 00:05:08,716 Speaker 1: that wasn't even being considered. And so I think that 77 00:05:08,756 --> 00:05:12,676 Speaker 1: if we were to pursue health outcomes regardless of how 78 00:05:12,756 --> 00:05:16,396 Speaker 1: our body changes, if we were to trust our bodies 79 00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:18,556 Speaker 1: to do what they need to do, just like we 80 00:05:18,556 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 1: trust them to go to the bathroom, just like we 81 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:24,316 Speaker 1: trust ourselves to fall asleep, that's how we would be 82 00:05:24,356 --> 00:05:28,596 Speaker 1: able to measure and see health outcomes change people of color. 83 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 1: They're suffering from body image issues and eating disorders at 84 00:05:32,076 --> 00:05:35,196 Speaker 1: the same rate as white folks, but they're far less 85 00:05:35,236 --> 00:05:39,196 Speaker 1: likely to receive a professional diagnosis or treatment. Is health 86 00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 1: at every size and weight inclusivity founded with a particular 87 00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:45,316 Speaker 1: race or culture in mind? You know what? That is 88 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:49,636 Speaker 1: an incredible question, And I don't even know if I 89 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:53,356 Speaker 1: have an answer. It was probably written for what most 90 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:59,516 Speaker 1: things are written for, right, so the most accessible white female. 91 00:06:00,036 --> 00:06:06,756 Speaker 1: And now people are arguing that body positivity health at 92 00:06:06,756 --> 00:06:10,716 Speaker 1: every size should be a social justice issue. It is 93 00:06:11,196 --> 00:06:15,076 Speaker 1: a social justice issue, because if we're talking about accessibility, 94 00:06:15,636 --> 00:06:20,396 Speaker 1: if we're talking about who has the ability to get 95 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:26,156 Speaker 1: mental health care, never mind eating disorder treatment, then how 96 00:06:26,196 --> 00:06:30,116 Speaker 1: can we even begin to cover? You know, these issues? 97 00:06:30,556 --> 00:06:32,756 Speaker 1: I worked a neating disorder center. We didn't even talk 98 00:06:32,756 --> 00:06:36,836 Speaker 1: about fat phobia, never mind talking about racism or the 99 00:06:36,876 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 1: Patrick artchyme. And so I think that there's a deep 100 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:44,356 Speaker 1: need on the macro level. And sometimes if I go 101 00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:47,036 Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole too far, I'm like, oh my god, 102 00:06:47,076 --> 00:06:51,316 Speaker 1: what's the point, Like we're screwed. And so that's why 103 00:06:51,356 --> 00:06:53,916 Speaker 1: I am like, I see it and I know it, 104 00:06:53,916 --> 00:06:57,236 Speaker 1: and I hold importance for it now. According to the 105 00:06:57,276 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: American Journal of Public Health Health that every size has 106 00:06:59,836 --> 00:07:02,076 Speaker 1: been shown to work on the individual level, but the 107 00:07:02,116 --> 00:07:05,676 Speaker 1: studies authors didn't endorse it as a public health measure. 108 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:07,876 Speaker 1: What do you think the hold up is? Have you 109 00:07:07,916 --> 00:07:10,836 Speaker 1: been like following the research or have your class but 110 00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:13,236 Speaker 1: a part of any of the recent studies. Here's the 111 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:17,396 Speaker 1: thing is, nobody wants to fund that. The diet industry 112 00:07:17,796 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: is a seventy two billion dollar industry that profits on 113 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:27,516 Speaker 1: the belief that dieting will help our health. So I 114 00:07:27,596 --> 00:07:32,716 Speaker 1: would love for people to invest to measure at that level. 115 00:07:32,996 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 1: It can health at every size help Nobody benefits except 116 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:40,796 Speaker 1: the consumer. Except us, We benefit from that. Don't you 117 00:07:40,836 --> 00:07:43,676 Speaker 1: think that the food companies and the people that make 118 00:07:43,716 --> 00:07:46,396 Speaker 1: food at whatever it is, this would be something that 119 00:07:46,436 --> 00:07:48,476 Speaker 1: they could get behind where it's like, you know what 120 00:07:48,516 --> 00:07:51,076 Speaker 1: I mean, because if we're talking like not diet culture anymore, 121 00:07:51,316 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: they were just being like, put butter on it. What 122 00:07:53,436 --> 00:07:55,636 Speaker 1: are we doing here? You know what I mean? Like 123 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:57,956 Speaker 1: it seems like there'd be more money from a different place. 124 00:07:58,116 --> 00:08:00,276 Speaker 1: There are so many people who can get behind it. 125 00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 1: One of the things that people crap on is like 126 00:08:03,556 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: I can't gain weight because then I can't fit in seats. 127 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 1: I can't you know, buy clothes. And I'm like, there's 128 00:08:11,156 --> 00:08:15,036 Speaker 1: a huge industry here for companies to be like, all right, 129 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 1: we can make it. We caught it for you, So 130 00:08:17,796 --> 00:08:20,996 Speaker 1: why don't people? Because I think it scares the American public. 131 00:08:21,436 --> 00:08:26,556 Speaker 1: We live in constant disarray with our relationship with food, 132 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 1: and it's actually to a point of bonding. Like if 133 00:08:29,836 --> 00:08:33,236 Speaker 1: you can pull yourself back and you look at how 134 00:08:33,276 --> 00:08:37,436 Speaker 1: we connect. We often connect around feeling bad about our 135 00:08:37,436 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 1: bodies or feeling bad about food or oh, I'm on it, 136 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:43,556 Speaker 1: I'm cheating today, I'm off. Once I was able to 137 00:08:43,556 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 1: step outside of that, then I see like, oh man, 138 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:49,796 Speaker 1: like what I was doing there was It was a 139 00:08:49,836 --> 00:08:53,716 Speaker 1: bid for connection. I just I wanted to belong and 140 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:57,116 Speaker 1: I was so fearful that my body size or my 141 00:08:57,276 --> 00:09:00,396 Speaker 1: food freedom was going to be the thing that exiled me. 142 00:09:00,716 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 1: Am I still afraid of that? Now? Sure? Am I 143 00:09:03,156 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 1: probably going to get flat back for this episode? Absolutely? 144 00:09:06,596 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: Are people going to say that I'm justifying my body 145 00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: size by taking this position? Absolutely? Does that change my position? 146 00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:18,236 Speaker 1: Not at all? So where do you think the idealization 147 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:22,396 Speaker 1: of Thinness comes from and what do you do to 148 00:09:22,436 --> 00:09:25,796 Speaker 1: push back. I'm giving your listeners lots of reading to do. 149 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 1: There is a book called The Beauty Myth written by 150 00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:34,116 Speaker 1: Naomi Wolf, and she talks about how the beauty myth 151 00:09:34,156 --> 00:09:37,916 Speaker 1: and the thin ideal has actually been carried with us 152 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 1: through generations. That's rooted in racism, It's rooted in the patriarchy, 153 00:09:43,596 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 1: that there is an ideal body size Sabrina Strings book 154 00:09:47,316 --> 00:09:51,556 Speaker 1: Fearing the Black Body. Somebody profits off of their being 155 00:09:51,596 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 1: an ideal and it's making it a desirability. And so 156 00:09:56,716 --> 00:10:00,196 Speaker 1: the average female woman in the United States wears a 157 00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:03,956 Speaker 1: size sixteen. And so how I push back from that 158 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 1: is one acknowledging what are my values and what are 159 00:10:08,076 --> 00:10:11,436 Speaker 1: society's values. I was told by people, you're not going 160 00:10:11,476 --> 00:10:13,636 Speaker 1: to be able to find a boyfriend if you don't 161 00:10:13,676 --> 00:10:17,156 Speaker 1: lose weight, and I was able to recognize that's not true. 162 00:10:17,396 --> 00:10:19,836 Speaker 1: I have friends and larger bodies who get married. I 163 00:10:19,916 --> 00:10:24,236 Speaker 1: have friends and larger bodies who are having intimacy and 164 00:10:24,676 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 1: are able to connect with their body with other people. 165 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:31,556 Speaker 1: So why is that message true for me? And I 166 00:10:31,676 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: had to unlearn that message, and so my reframe is 167 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:40,076 Speaker 1: I am not for everyone, and I am deeply loved. 168 00:10:40,796 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 1: That's where progress is made. I say this thing to 169 00:10:42,796 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 1: my clients. Would you if you could pursue health if 170 00:10:46,476 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 1: your goal is is health, but your body doesn't change. 171 00:10:49,436 --> 00:10:52,956 Speaker 1: If your body does, size does not change, or even 172 00:10:53,036 --> 00:10:56,316 Speaker 1: worse in your mind, your body says gets bigger. Well, 173 00:10:56,356 --> 00:10:58,956 Speaker 1: you still want to pursue health. Is that enough for you? 174 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:03,596 Speaker 1: That's a good question. I noticed that the health of 175 00:11:03,676 --> 00:11:06,036 Speaker 1: every size movement doesn't have a lot of data about 176 00:11:06,156 --> 00:11:09,916 Speaker 1: successful outcomes with heavier groups. You think that there's any 177 00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:14,476 Speaker 1: limitations to the health at every size approach? Again, I 178 00:11:14,516 --> 00:11:17,276 Speaker 1: think that we would love to do more studies, but 179 00:11:17,316 --> 00:11:19,756 Speaker 1: we need to have studies funded. I know, so, I 180 00:11:20,476 --> 00:11:21,796 Speaker 1: know it's a little bit of a what about ism 181 00:11:21,836 --> 00:11:24,956 Speaker 1: because I'm going in the opposite direction. But how long 182 00:11:25,756 --> 00:11:29,676 Speaker 1: do we see weight loss successful? For the most that 183 00:11:29,756 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 1: we have is about five years for five percent of 184 00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:37,636 Speaker 1: the people we have sustained results, which means for ninety 185 00:11:37,676 --> 00:11:41,356 Speaker 1: five percent of the public, we're going to end up 186 00:11:41,396 --> 00:11:43,836 Speaker 1: back in the same place that we started, or heavier, 187 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:47,636 Speaker 1: and they're not giving you long lasting studies that are 188 00:11:47,676 --> 00:11:58,116 Speaker 1: effective in changing health outcomes. Brie. A few weeks ago, 189 00:11:58,156 --> 00:12:01,396 Speaker 1: we talked with Michael Moss. He's an investigative journalist. We 190 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:05,796 Speaker 1: talked about the exploitative nature of food companies. He believes 191 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:10,316 Speaker 1: that the food industry's product development actually contribute to food addiction. 192 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:13,476 Speaker 1: I will tell you off the back, from my clinical perspective, 193 00:12:13,836 --> 00:12:16,636 Speaker 1: I do not believe that people can be addicted to 194 00:12:16,876 --> 00:12:21,996 Speaker 1: things that we need. And rather, I believe that restriction 195 00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: causes binging. That it's sort of like this pendulum, and 196 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:30,596 Speaker 1: this pendulum is pulled and so then once there's freedom, 197 00:12:30,716 --> 00:12:34,636 Speaker 1: we swing in the opposite direction. Now, the first guideline 198 00:12:34,716 --> 00:12:38,396 Speaker 1: of intuitive eating is to reject the diet mentality, the 199 00:12:38,436 --> 00:12:41,436 Speaker 1: notion that there are good foods and bad foods, and 200 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:45,916 Speaker 1: to allow ourselves to have permission to eat all foods. 201 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:48,596 Speaker 1: And when I say this to people, and when I 202 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: share this with clients, there's a lot of pushback. There's like, no, 203 00:12:52,236 --> 00:12:54,356 Speaker 1: but if I if I'm allowed to eat this, I'm 204 00:12:54,356 --> 00:12:57,236 Speaker 1: never going to stop eating it. And I have felt 205 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: that myself, and I can tell you I am in 206 00:13:00,556 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: the largest body that I've ever existed in, and I 207 00:13:04,276 --> 00:13:08,556 Speaker 1: have the best relationship with food because I was able 208 00:13:08,596 --> 00:13:12,316 Speaker 1: to set rate out those food rules. And now when 209 00:13:12,436 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 1: I eat said food. It is out of desire and 210 00:13:16,196 --> 00:13:19,476 Speaker 1: not out of restriction. So I think one of the 211 00:13:19,516 --> 00:13:22,836 Speaker 1: things that is noted in that episode is we're born 212 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:24,716 Speaker 1: being addicted to the thing that we need, which is 213 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:27,116 Speaker 1: food and water. Do you think that still falls in 214 00:13:27,196 --> 00:13:28,676 Speaker 1: line with what you're saying or does that fall in 215 00:13:28,716 --> 00:13:31,276 Speaker 1: opposition of what you're saying. I think what we're arguing 216 00:13:31,276 --> 00:13:34,196 Speaker 1: here is the nuance of addiction. And one of my 217 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:38,876 Speaker 1: favorite authors on addiction is Johan Harry, and he talks 218 00:13:38,916 --> 00:13:43,036 Speaker 1: about addiction with the rat in a cage with cocaine 219 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:46,716 Speaker 1: water and regular water. The rat would go towards the 220 00:13:46,716 --> 00:13:52,756 Speaker 1: cocaine water. But Johan Harry had followed another study that said, well, 221 00:13:52,796 --> 00:13:56,036 Speaker 1: if you're just putting that in front of the rat, 222 00:13:56,516 --> 00:13:58,396 Speaker 1: of course he's going to go to it. But what 223 00:13:58,516 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 1: if you put the rat in an environment where he 224 00:14:01,356 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: had friends and he had things to do, and they 225 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:06,436 Speaker 1: called it rat park and you put it out of 226 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:10,396 Speaker 1: the way, would the rat bs life to go towards 227 00:14:10,436 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: the thing that it feels addicted to. And what they 228 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 1: found in their research was no. And so what Johan 229 00:14:15,196 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 1: Harry says about addiction is that the opposite of addiction 230 00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:24,156 Speaker 1: is not sobriety that it is connection. Yes. Do people 231 00:14:24,196 --> 00:14:27,716 Speaker 1: maybe use food as a coping skill, yes, but why 232 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:29,996 Speaker 1: do we demonize that if that is all you have 233 00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: access to? How do you define health? If you only 234 00:14:33,116 --> 00:14:37,996 Speaker 1: define health based on body size, then sure I'm not healthy. 235 00:14:38,116 --> 00:14:40,836 Speaker 1: For me, I base my health on my blood work, 236 00:14:41,356 --> 00:14:43,996 Speaker 1: on my consistency with going to the doctor as a 237 00:14:44,236 --> 00:14:46,476 Speaker 1: fat person, and I use fat in a reclaimed way. 238 00:14:47,196 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: I get a lot of pushback from doctors who are 239 00:14:49,876 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 1: not in line with this health that every size paradigm. 240 00:14:52,356 --> 00:14:54,356 Speaker 1: For me, it's how much of sleep am I getting? 241 00:14:54,436 --> 00:14:57,436 Speaker 1: How much connection am I getting in my relationships? What 242 00:14:57,516 --> 00:15:01,156 Speaker 1: does my mental health look like? It is a true 243 00:15:01,476 --> 00:15:06,276 Speaker 1: holistic approach rather than am I eating enough fruits and vegetables? 244 00:15:06,356 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 1: And am I exercising? And there's another book that I 245 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:11,956 Speaker 1: have erect ammend people read. Lindo Bacon and Lucy Affermore 246 00:15:11,996 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 1: wrote a book they wrote, Health at Every Size, But 247 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 1: then they also wrote a follow up book called Body Respect. 248 00:15:18,596 --> 00:15:22,076 Speaker 1: It says that food and exercise only make up thirty 249 00:15:22,116 --> 00:15:28,236 Speaker 1: percent of health, that health is impacted majoritatively by accessibility, 250 00:15:28,516 --> 00:15:31,836 Speaker 1: and so we can't even get into the nuances of 251 00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:36,156 Speaker 1: what these big companies are doing. While yes, that is 252 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,636 Speaker 1: important if we can shift our relationship to said food, 253 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 1: it's that we will trust our bodies to do what 254 00:15:42,796 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 1: they need to do. I don't need any program to 255 00:15:46,636 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: tell me how many times I need to go to 256 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 1: the bathroom. I trust my body to do that. It's 257 00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:54,236 Speaker 1: a natural reaction. Everybody was freaking out this year that 258 00:15:54,316 --> 00:15:56,276 Speaker 1: they gained weight, and I'm like, if we were to 259 00:15:56,276 --> 00:16:00,276 Speaker 1: think about this in you know, the cavemen times, if 260 00:16:00,316 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 1: they were sheltered in and they were stuck in, they 261 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 1: would be grateful that their body sustained weight as a 262 00:16:07,476 --> 00:16:11,036 Speaker 1: survivability mechanism. So I think we might be differing on 263 00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 1: the word of addiction. I think it has a negative connotation, 264 00:16:14,876 --> 00:16:18,676 Speaker 1: but I truly believe in giving the power back to 265 00:16:19,036 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 1: the consumer, to the person that without feeling guilt, I 266 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,356 Speaker 1: can buy these foods that I have been told I'm 267 00:16:25,396 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 1: not allowed to and they don't have to control or 268 00:16:28,116 --> 00:16:37,716 Speaker 1: consume your life. Brie, I read that in your practice 269 00:16:37,756 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 1: you explore something called body grief with your clients. Tell 270 00:16:41,396 --> 00:16:46,716 Speaker 1: me more about that. Yes, when I was in the 271 00:16:46,756 --> 00:16:50,676 Speaker 1: thick of my body image journey, and I realized that 272 00:16:50,996 --> 00:16:54,316 Speaker 1: because of some of the health complications that I have, 273 00:16:54,916 --> 00:16:58,796 Speaker 1: which are hormonal and autoimmune, that the likelihood that my 274 00:16:58,876 --> 00:17:02,756 Speaker 1: body will ever change or be small, the fact that 275 00:17:02,796 --> 00:17:06,276 Speaker 1: I will never be able to attain that ladder. I 276 00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:11,276 Speaker 1: had to explore the death of what that grief meant 277 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:14,276 Speaker 1: or said to me. I had to learn how to 278 00:17:14,436 --> 00:17:19,116 Speaker 1: belong to myself, and in that I had to say 279 00:17:19,236 --> 00:17:23,076 Speaker 1: goodbye to things that I wasn't going to get. So 280 00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:26,676 Speaker 1: I would never get the praise and adoration from my 281 00:17:26,796 --> 00:17:30,796 Speaker 1: family around being in a smaller body. I would never 282 00:17:31,156 --> 00:17:34,756 Speaker 1: be seen to society as a success story. In allowing 283 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:39,636 Speaker 1: myself to go to those dark places with grief, sharing 284 00:17:39,676 --> 00:17:42,516 Speaker 1: with other people and realizing I'm not the only one 285 00:17:42,556 --> 00:17:47,156 Speaker 1: who feels this way, it lifted that burden of being 286 00:17:47,196 --> 00:17:50,396 Speaker 1: alone in my body image. And Elizabeth Cooper Ross actually 287 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:54,116 Speaker 1: wrote the stages of grief. They're originally the stages of death, 288 00:17:54,156 --> 00:18:00,636 Speaker 1: and we're familiar with them. And it is denial, anger, bargaining, depression, 289 00:18:01,236 --> 00:18:07,556 Speaker 1: and then acceptance. An acceptance is not yeay, death, yea hey, 290 00:18:07,596 --> 00:18:10,716 Speaker 1: I let to live in a bad image. That's never 291 00:18:10,756 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 1: what acceptance was. Right. Acceptance was I am here, I'm 292 00:18:17,076 --> 00:18:25,876 Speaker 1: glad I got you said, and I think that there's 293 00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:29,996 Speaker 1: this misconception that acceptance is going to be like, yeay, 294 00:18:30,036 --> 00:18:32,116 Speaker 1: I love my fat body. And here's what I'll tell 295 00:18:32,156 --> 00:18:36,636 Speaker 1: you that my body acceptance does not mean that I 296 00:18:36,716 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 1: love all the parts of my body. It's not like 297 00:18:39,316 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 1: I have some acne over here. I'm not excited about it. 298 00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:46,756 Speaker 1: I don't love it, but it no longer hold narrative 299 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:53,316 Speaker 1: that I am less then, and that is acceptance, That 300 00:18:53,476 --> 00:19:04,436 Speaker 1: is body acceptance. What can our listeners do to support 301 00:19:04,476 --> 00:19:06,916 Speaker 1: the help that Every Size movement, to learn more about it, 302 00:19:06,956 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 1: to help promote a more weight neutral approach to health 303 00:19:10,676 --> 00:19:14,156 Speaker 1: for themselves and among their friends. I love the idea 304 00:19:14,236 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 1: of weight neutrality right because of being weight inclusive feels 305 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:22,356 Speaker 1: very hard at times, so of if we can just 306 00:19:22,596 --> 00:19:25,876 Speaker 1: begin to be neutral towards it. The thing that you 307 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:30,316 Speaker 1: can do is begin to explore your own relationship with 308 00:19:30,396 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: your body and with your relationship with food, and begin 309 00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:39,316 Speaker 1: to unravel where did this come from? Where did this 310 00:19:39,356 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 1: belief system exist? I recommend reading Sonya Renee Taylor's book. 311 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 1: I recommend reading Sabrina String's book. I recommend reading The 312 00:19:47,716 --> 00:19:51,436 Speaker 1: Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf Health at Every Size and 313 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 1: Body respect and anti diet. I recommend getting into the 314 00:19:56,396 --> 00:20:01,916 Speaker 1: literature and understanding. So we're deprogramming from diet culture like 315 00:20:02,116 --> 00:20:07,636 Speaker 1: deprogramming from a cult on the macro level. That is 316 00:20:07,676 --> 00:20:13,396 Speaker 1: a great question. My thought is, I don't know, so 317 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,556 Speaker 1: I just keep showing up and talking and hopefully people 318 00:20:17,596 --> 00:20:21,876 Speaker 1: like yourself will listen. Thank you so much for briting 319 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:23,956 Speaker 1: with us, Brie, Thank you for having me. This has 320 00:20:23,996 --> 00:20:30,356 Speaker 1: been such an honor. Brecamp Posts is a body image 321 00:20:30,396 --> 00:20:33,116 Speaker 1: coach and mental health counselor based in New Jersey. Be 322 00:20:33,196 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: sure to check out our show notes for links to 323 00:20:35,116 --> 00:20:40,156 Speaker 1: all the books that Bree mentioned in this episode. Solvable Listeners, 324 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:43,276 Speaker 1: It's summer and we're gonna take a two week break 325 00:20:43,316 --> 00:20:46,796 Speaker 1: to enjoy it. We'll be back in mid August with 326 00:20:46,876 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 1: a terrific collection of solvables for you. Starting with a 327 00:20:49,796 --> 00:20:54,036 Speaker 1: conversation with Ebram x Kendy from our sister podcast, Be 328 00:20:54,396 --> 00:20:57,876 Speaker 1: Anti Racist. We're going to talk with him about how 329 00:20:57,916 --> 00:21:02,156 Speaker 1: to endure while doing anti racism work. Sometimes we get 330 00:21:02,196 --> 00:21:05,276 Speaker 1: a little tired in those spaces. He's going to teach 331 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,076 Speaker 1: us how to get through it. We're still reading tweets 332 00:21:08,076 --> 00:21:10,876 Speaker 1: while we were away. Please write us what are the 333 00:21:10,916 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 1: problems that you'd like to hear us discuss on this show. 334 00:21:13,836 --> 00:21:16,756 Speaker 1: What do you need solutions for? Tweeted us with the 335 00:21:16,756 --> 00:21:20,156 Speaker 1: hashtag solvable. You can tweet it me at oh It's 336 00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 1: big Ron, that's f O h I T S b 337 00:21:22,996 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 1: I g R O N, or at Pushkin Pods that's 338 00:21:26,716 --> 00:21:29,636 Speaker 1: at p U s h k I N p O 339 00:21:29,796 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 1: d S. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by 340 00:21:34,876 --> 00:21:39,076 Speaker 1: David Jack, booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is 341 00:21:39,116 --> 00:21:43,396 Speaker 1: Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer is Mio LaBelle. I'm 342 00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:45,876 Speaker 1: Ronald Young Junior. Thanks for listening.