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Speaker 1: to Coast am on iHeart Radio and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast George Nori with who with Dr Markeaton,

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Speaker 1: Associate professor of Sociology at Ripon College in Wisconsin. Since

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, he's been studying paranormal investigators, also known

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Speaker 1: as ghost hunters, in order to better understand who gets

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Speaker 1: involved in this field, how they attempt to communicate with

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Speaker 1: spirits and document evidence of their presence, and what they

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Speaker 1: ultimately hope to gain from such an undertaking. Now, based

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Speaker 1: on participation in twenty paranormal investigations, interviews with nearly fifty

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Speaker 1: paranormal investigators, and observations at five paranormal conferences, this research

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Speaker 1: provides for him and us on precedent and insights into

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Speaker 1: a thriving subculture that persists despite being rejected by both

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Speaker 1: mainstream science and religion. The book that they edited with

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Speaker 1: Dennis Wasskell, it is called The Supernatural in Sidey Culture

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Speaker 1: and History. And here we are with Dr Mark Eaton. Mark,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the program, looking forward to this tonight. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me. I really appreciate that. How did

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Speaker 1: you How did a professor of sociology get involved in

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Speaker 1: the paranormal like this. Yeah, that's a good question. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, I guess it goes back to childhood interest

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Speaker 1: in the paranormal. Um. You know, I wasn't one of

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Speaker 1: these kids like many of the people that I interviewed

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Speaker 1: for this research, that grew up with paranormal experiences or

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Speaker 1: abilities and things like that. But I was a child

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Speaker 1: of the eighties, and so of course I saw all

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Speaker 1: of the famous movies of the eighties, Postbusters, poulter Geist,

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. Um. Grew up in the Northwest

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Speaker 1: as well, and so stories about bigfoot lurking in the

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Speaker 1: forest were always on the back of my mind too

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Speaker 1: when I was out hiking. So um, you know, going

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Speaker 1: back to my childhood, certainly there's kind of a seed

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Speaker 1: of interest there. But um, you know, as a sociologist,

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Speaker 1: I'm interested in how people make sense of the world

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Speaker 1: and how they do that in groups rather than as

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Speaker 1: an individual. So UM, watching shows like uh ghost Hunters,

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Speaker 1: for example, during a graduate school really piqued my interest

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Speaker 1: in the how of paranormal investigation. You know, how it

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Speaker 1: is that people go into these locations and determine whether

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Speaker 1: or not they believe these places are haunted and on

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Speaker 1: the basis of what evidence. So it's kind of an

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Speaker 1: unusual topic for sociologists to study, although it's becoming less

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Speaker 1: so with Dennis and I are both doing this book

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Speaker 1: project together. Um, but I think it has a lot

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Speaker 1: of sociological interest and a lot of general interests as well.

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Speaker 1: So you became more interested in the why are they

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Speaker 1: doing this? Who is doing this than the actual paranormal event. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's unusual, um for someone you know,

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Speaker 1: to come at the paranormal from the sociological perspective, where

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Speaker 1: you know, as the paranormal investigators are are studying the ghosts,

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Speaker 1: I'm studying the paranormal investigators. So, um, you know, my

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Speaker 1: interest is in the human experience of attempting to make

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Speaker 1: contact with something that's you know, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say non human, but maybe you know, formerly human or

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things, and so, um, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not that I'm not interested in what paranormal investigators are

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Speaker 1: are studying. It's it's an intrinsically interesting process to go

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Speaker 1: into these places and use your voice recorders and what

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Speaker 1: not to try to capture evidence. But I'm also really

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Speaker 1: fascinated by the human process, the kind of interpretive work

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Speaker 1: that happens during investigations, UM, where people determine whether or

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Speaker 1: not they think a certain knocking sound was a ghost

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Speaker 1: or was it just the floorboards creaking, for example. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: you know that that's the part that really fascinates me,

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Speaker 1: and I somewhat hold off the question of whether or not,

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Speaker 1: Um there's a certain underlying reality to what they're looking at,

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Speaker 1: and more fascinated by how people construct reality. Mark. Were

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Speaker 1: these investigators primarily doing what they were doing for a

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Speaker 1: number of reasons? Let me throw out some possibilities here

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Speaker 1: and tell me what you think. One would be they

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Speaker 1: actually believe they're investigating some real paranormal activity. That would

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Speaker 1: be I think number one their motivation. The other I

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Speaker 1: think they're doing it for fun. Some people do that

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Speaker 1: for fun. Another would be that they are want to

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Speaker 1: meet other people of similar or like interests and they

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Speaker 1: see this as a way to do that. Um. What

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Speaker 1: about the possibility that they're just skeptics and they want

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Speaker 1: to really debunk what's happening. I think all of those

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Speaker 1: are definitely part of the mix. I think, you know, initially,

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Speaker 1: particularly for people who got into this in the two thousand's.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it was driven by this interest that

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Speaker 1: was born of watching ghost hunters, ghost adventures, those sorts

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Speaker 1: of shows. Um So you had this influx of people

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Speaker 1: into the subculture that came in kind of preloaded with

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Speaker 1: all of this knowledge that they gained really only by

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Speaker 1: watching TV of how to go about doing it, what

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Speaker 1: ghosts are supposed to do, not supposed to do. Um

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Speaker 1: So you had you had a certain thrill seeker component

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Speaker 1: to this wave of people that got involved. Um anyone

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Speaker 1: who has done ter noormal investigation for any period of

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Speaker 1: time knows that it's not like it is on TV.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't go into a place to come

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Speaker 1: out half an hour later with six e vps and

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Speaker 1: a couple of video clips. Um It's it's usually nothing

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Speaker 1: happening for an extended period of time if anything, if

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Speaker 1: anything happens right right. And so you know, the thrill

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Speaker 1: seekers tend to kind of come and go pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: And what you're left with then are people who have

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Speaker 1: really deep driving motivations. You know, some people who grew

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Speaker 1: up having experiences as kids, they want to figure out

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Speaker 1: what that was. People who are dealing with death, you know,

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Speaker 1: dealing with the reality of our own demise or the

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Speaker 1: loss of a loved one. Um. Some people that are

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Speaker 1: more motivated by a desire to make some sort of

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Speaker 1: pioneering scientific discovery, you know, and if we can finally

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Speaker 1: find that golden piece of evidence, then will overturn scientific

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Speaker 1: understanding of how the world works. Um. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: once people are actually involved in this for uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: a period of time, and on these teams, one of

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Speaker 1: the things I found most consistently was that one of

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Speaker 1: the primary motivators is simply because they really like helping people. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, they want to help, especially the clients that

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Speaker 1: call them in that are scared because they believe their

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Speaker 1: house is haunted. But they also want to try to

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Speaker 1: help people who are on the other side, who might

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Speaker 1: be lost or stuck trying to convey a message. And so,

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Speaker 1: you know, the more the deeper people get into paranormal investigation,

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Speaker 1: less it is about their own per motivations, and the

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Speaker 1: more it is about wanting to help others. And I

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Speaker 1: found that to be a really kind of surprising and um,

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Speaker 1: you know, a sort of endearing quality. I guess you

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Speaker 1: could say about about the subculture. Mark did your research

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Speaker 1: convince you that the paranormal is the real deal, or

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Speaker 1: did it still keep you, you know, on the on

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Speaker 1: the on the edge. Yeah. I mean I came into this,

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Speaker 1: I guess I would like to believe with an open mind, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that I hadn't had personal experiences, So

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Speaker 1: I wasn't someone who came in saying I already know

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Speaker 1: this is real. Um. But I also didn't come in

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Speaker 1: like a hardcore skeptic might kind of with my nose

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Speaker 1: in the air, saying all right, you know, it'll be

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Speaker 1: fun to watch these And you didn't come into it

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Speaker 1: as a debunker either, exactly. I didn't. I didn't come

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Speaker 1: in trying to debunk it. You know. I came in

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Speaker 1: interested in the people and interested in the process of

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Speaker 1: how they go about doing this. Um. You know, through

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Speaker 1: the process of investigating with teams. Of the last six

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Speaker 1: years now, UM, I've had you know, a couple of

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Speaker 1: experiences with teams that, um, we're pretty shocking, um, and

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Speaker 1: you know kind of have forced me to at least

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Speaker 1: have the experience that so many people in this field have,

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Speaker 1: which is really questioning your underlying you know, assumptions about reality.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I haven't necessarily like come full circle

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Speaker 1: and I am now a true believer or something. But

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Speaker 1: I have a more kind of deeper understanding and respect

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Speaker 1: for people who really do believe that they've had experiences

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Speaker 1: with ghosts. And you know, UM, I have struggled with

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Speaker 1: with questioning reality as well as a result of some

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Speaker 1: of those things that I've I've seen. What would you

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Speaker 1: say in your research was the most surprising aspect of

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Speaker 1: all of this for you? UM? I guess the combination things.

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Speaker 1: One of them, UM gets back to what we just

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Speaker 1: talked about in terms of this, UM. You know how

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Speaker 1: this forced me into a situation, particularly one event where

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Speaker 1: an investigator that I was standing next to seem to

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Speaker 1: have been thrown backwards by something that none of us

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Speaker 1: could see your sense in any way, UM, And that

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Speaker 1: happened UM a couple of times over the course of

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Speaker 1: one investigation. That was the thing that really kind of

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Speaker 1: threw me into this existential crisis. I guess you could say,

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Speaker 1: of what's going on here? What is reality? I thought

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Speaker 1: I already knew what was going on in the world,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not UM, So that certainly was you know,

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Speaker 1: surprising and challenging. Something I continued to kind of roll

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Speaker 1: around in my head. Um, in terms of looking at

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Speaker 1: the subculture and the people that are in it. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the things that surprised me, I guess

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Speaker 1: in some sense is that, you know, going into this,

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Speaker 1: I sort of assumed that ghost hunters would be the

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Speaker 1: types of people that sort of fit the goth stereotype.

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Speaker 1: You know, that dark clothing, our hair, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of fascinated with death. Um, that particular type of person.

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Speaker 1: And what I found is actually, by and large, paranormal

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Speaker 1: investigators are a cross section of America. You know, You've

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Speaker 1: got everybody from scientists to hairdressers and construction workers involved

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Speaker 1: all across the country. You know, hundreds of teams across

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Speaker 1: the country, thousands of people involved, different levels of education,

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Speaker 1: you name it. And so one thing that was surprising

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Speaker 1: to me that I guess shows my bias going in

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Speaker 1: is that these people are quote unquote normal exactly. Know,

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Speaker 1: and they wear blue jeans and stuff like that exactly

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, going into it, I had

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Speaker 1: probably internalized a lot of the cultural stuff about oh,

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Speaker 1: if you believe in this, then you're cookie and you're different. Um,

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Speaker 1: do most of them mark have other jobs? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I don't think I met a single

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Speaker 1: person who makes money doing this. Um. Most people, in fact,

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Speaker 1: um spend money doing it on technology. They lose money

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Speaker 1: on it. Yeah, technology travel. You know, one of the

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Speaker 1: great no knows of paranormal investigation is charging for your investigations.

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Speaker 1: So people travel hundreds of miles, spend nights in hotels

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Speaker 1: by thousands of dollars of equipment, um, and do it

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Speaker 1: out of the kindness of their own hearts and so um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, I mean one of the surprising things

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Speaker 1: was this idea that these people are just normal people.

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Speaker 1: They're not kookie. And in fact, more often than not,

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Speaker 1: the teams that I observed go in trying to find

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Speaker 1: alternative natural explanations first and will only arrive at paranormal

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Speaker 1: if they feel like there's nothing left that will adequately

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Speaker 1: explain what's going on, So they don't jump straight to oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a demon or oh it's a ghost most of

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Speaker 1: the time, like I think outsiders would assume, they do.

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Speaker 1: Beyond the person being pushed around by some entity, was

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Speaker 1: there anything else that you saw that really boggled your mind?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, again, people who are involved in

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Speaker 1: this field know that something like a person going backwards.

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Speaker 1: Apparently being pushed or in some other way being thrown

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Speaker 1: backwards is like a one in a million event. You know.

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Speaker 1: Most of the times things that happened are right on

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Speaker 1: that line of interpretation. You know, does that thing that

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Speaker 1: I captured on my voice recorder really sound like a

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Speaker 1: ghostly voice or could that have been someone walking down

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Speaker 1: the sidewalk at one thirty in the morning that I captured. Um,

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Speaker 1: So there's a lot of ambiguity with the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of things that you capture on the in the process

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Speaker 1: of investigating UM. You know, I have personally never been

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Speaker 1: like touched, pushed, scratched. Um. You know, There's been times

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Speaker 1: when I've certainly felt the hair on the back of

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Speaker 1: my neck stand up and felt like there was someone

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Speaker 1: standing over me. But you were never threatened or anything

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Speaker 1: like that. I've never been threatened nothing that I've ever

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Speaker 1: I've captured some things on my audio recorder that sounded

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Speaker 1: like they could have been a voice or something in

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Speaker 1: the room with me. UM, never anything that said you know,

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Speaker 1: anything to me, like you know, I will kill you

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Speaker 1: or even even get out. You know. Usually it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty innocuous. So UM, yeah, I haven't ever, I guess,

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Speaker 1: felt threatened so much by anything, except for that one

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Speaker 1: time when, um, you know, when you see something like

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Speaker 1: that happened so close to you, you you kind of can't

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Speaker 1: help wonder if you're next. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast a m. Every weeknight at one a m. Eastern,

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Speaker 1: and go to Coast to Coast am dot com for

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Speaker 1: more