WEBVTT - External Exam - Geeking Out with Body Bags Host, Joseph Scott Morgan 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.400 Hi, everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today is our 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.640 one hundredth episode, and to celebrate, we are having a 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.480 special episode with the host of Body Bags Podcasts, Joseph 0:00:27.480 --> 0:00:30.920 Scott Morgan. You may know Joseph from his frequent appearances 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.960 on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Court TV and other 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:37.280 major news outlets, or as the author of Blood Beneath 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:41.200 My Feet, The Journey of a Southern Death Investigator. Joseph 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.520 holds a Master of Forensic Science degree from National University 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.200 and is a Board Certified Fellow of the American Board 0:00:47.440 --> 0:00:51.800 of Medical Legal Death Investigators. Currently, he's an Associate Professor 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:56.800 of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville State University in Alabama. Joseph 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.640 started working in forensics in the eighties, and throughout his 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.880 career he's been involved in thousands of medical legal death 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:07.480 investigations and autopsies. Please welcome Joseph Scott Morgan to Mother 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.480 Knows Death. Hi, Joseph, it's so exciting to have you 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:12.160 here today. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:17.560 Thanks for having me. It's truly I would have appear 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.560 on a lot of podcasts and chat with people I 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.680 feel like I'm talking with a colleague right now, and 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:27.520 so that's really cool for me. A different kind of colleague, 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:32.000 but a colleague just the same. It's an honor to 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.480 be with you and to chat with you and your audience. 0:01:34.800 --> 0:01:35.200 Thank you. 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.760 I think it's I'm so excited to speak with you 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:41.880 because there's not really many of us that do autopsies anymore. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.240 So when you get to meet someone that does the 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.360 same thing that you do or has done or whatever 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.400 you're doing right now, that it's so exciting that you 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.160 get to kind of talk shop because there's just a 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.880 limited amount of people that actually do it. Maybe we 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:01.280 should talk about a little why autops aren't as common 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:02.280 as they used to be. 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.120 I don't know if you're from my little slice of 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:10.520 the pie, just from my perspective of what I observe, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.000 because I know I'm a college professor now and I 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:16.200 have kids that I know you've had this happen for you. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:19.720 It's I've had kids that you know. They come to 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:22.639 me and they beg and they plead, Professor Morgan, can 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:24.640 you please take us to an autopsy? Can we go 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:29.680 see an autopsy? And when I was their age and 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:34.840 was getting started in the field. You know, there were 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:38.000 any number of places you could go. Corners, offices many 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:42.040 times would welcome you in these offices, and even hospitals. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:46.680 But now one word lawyers. That's what I think it 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:48.760 comes down to. I think it comes down to liability, 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.520 and it's it's tough to get people in the door. 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:58.000 I don't know that hospitals in particular are doing as 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:04.200 many autopsies as they used to. Hospital pathologists always always 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.280 kind of had a reputation that they would spend They 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.600 would prefer to spend more time in front of a 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.919 scope than being down and doing you know, the actual 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.320 gross dissection of you know, the remains in total and 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:20.960 you know, and my my career as a death investigator 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.040 kind of leached over into that area because I would 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.040 go around to private hospitals and the pathology groups and 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:30.120 I'd say, look, you know, I'm looking to pick up 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.840 some extra change. If you guys want me to go 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:36.360 in and do this autopsy for you and I can 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.720 report what I see, you know, cutting all the tissues, 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.440 you know, do everything for you, organ weights dimensionally, you know, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.400 do everything for you. If I see anything, I'll call you. 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.600 And they would prefer that I didn't call them, and 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:55.760 so it was a great It was a great opportunity 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.360 for me to sit at their feet and learn, because 0:03:58.400 --> 0:03:59.840 it's always a learning opportunity. 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:01.400 It's kind of nice when. 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.400 They don't call you, right because then you really get 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.160 time alone with the body to look at things. And 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:08.080 that's how I feel like. I would say, if I 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.600 see anything different, I'll call you. But that gave me 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.400 time to really see what was normal anatomy and what 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:18.760 was you know, looking crazy without someone else down your neck, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:19.960 breathing down your neck, you. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.800 Know yeah, and you feel like you've got uh, you 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:26.840 know that you're the you're the apprenticed and and they're 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.880 the master, you know uh, And they're standing over you, 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.600 hovering about you know, good and well they don't want 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:36.360 to be there. I still have yet to come across 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:39.720 a clinical pathologists that just she whiz. I wish it 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:41.919 could do an autopsy today the show. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.440 I know a couple that really yes, and they're. 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:47.480 The best, and you've got a much broader scope than 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:50.960 I do. So and I'm comparing them to forensic pathologist. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:55.040 Oh yeah, yeah, because the pathology residents that I used 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:57.440 to teach, the only ones that were really interested in 0:04:57.520 --> 0:04:59.880 doing the actual autopsies were the ones that ended up 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:01.200 going into forensics. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.359 So yeah, and you know there's certainly no limit on those. 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:11.000 Isn't it interesting? You know pathology from a physician standpoint, 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.200 I think is I say this, uh frequently, it's like 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.799 the only the only medical training that one can go through. 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.800 And the more training you get, the less money. And 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:26.920 so if you're going to become a forensic pathologist, yeah, 0:05:27.440 --> 0:05:29.880 you're going to start out as a government employee. That's 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.760 that's the way that happens. And you can develop a 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:38.120 private consultancy and do very well, but that has its 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:41.839 hazards along the way. I can discuss that, you know, 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.640 for you know, for people that are curious because you know, 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.520 there's I have people that reach out to me because 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.880 I cover all true crime stuff and they know my background. 0:05:49.880 --> 0:05:53.200 They're like, families, can you recommend a forensic pathologist to me? 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.560 The problem with that is, yeah, I can recommend them, 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.359 but as we say, down here in the South, there 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:04.400 there's rare hen's teeth. You don't you can't, you can't 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:10.960 find them very frequently. He probably find and I'm talking 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.279 about a board certified forensic pathologist not somebody that is 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:18.240 a pathologist that claims they practice forensics. Gulf of difference, 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:23.480 it'd be easier to find a neurosurgeon in most places. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:29.000 Yeah, people don't really, They're like the most highly specialized doctors, right. 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:30.440 People just don't realize that. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.560 Yeah, yeah they are. And they've left the clinical, the 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:37.039 traditional clinical world behind. I mean we in forensics, we 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:41.080 have our own clinical you know, dynamic. Obviously we're examining bodies, 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:45.440 were making diagnosies, uh, and we're assessing you know, laps 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.360 that come in. Lord knows, histology is a big part 0:06:48.400 --> 0:06:52.120 of what we do. Uh, and obviously talks uh and 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.680 then just stand their panels, you know, with everything you 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:56.880 know that walks through the door, well rolls for the 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:04.839 because we're I've never been a big fan of of 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:10.080 partial autopsies. I'm of the opinion, once you break out 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:14.000 the cold steel, everybody should go through because you're you're 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.600 you're running too much of a risk by only doing 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.160 a partial autopsy. There was a whole group of people 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.600 for a long time I remember that you could have, 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.640 for instance, a self inflicted gunshot, one with suicide case, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:29.280 and they bury bodies with bullets in the head. I've 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.080 never been a fan of that at all, and I've 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.640 seen that happen over and over and over again, and 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.160 a lot of times it's I think that it's because 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.880 of expediency, but you know, it's those cases that you're 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.920 going to wind up giving a deposition on them because 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:46.960 somebody's going to get in a twist over it, or 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.480 new evidence will be being covered in in the future. 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.320 And you know in forensics, if you don't do it 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.040 out of the gate, that body is going to wind 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.520 up in one or two places, either bare married and 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:09.480 vaulted and having been embombed in most cases, or cremated. 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.520 And so now you're you're looking for for evidence in 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.680 a case. And a great example I think that I 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.760 covered for years now has been the Tammy Davell case 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:25.680 out of Idaho, where you know, she presented early in 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:32.160 the morning, her husband found her, found her dead on 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:36.920 the floor. She had some kind of frothy cone that 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.400 her children actually came to the house, or adult children, 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.480 and UH visualized it was issuing forth from her nose 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.520 and her mouth. And most of the time, you know, 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:47.320 we're only going to see that. You know, if we 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:52.160 have we see it a lot in drug odes, particularly 0:08:52.360 --> 0:08:57.680 was opiates, and you see it with his six illed 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:02.560 us and of course he was like found guilty in 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.600 her case in addition to two children, they killed her 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:08.480 husband that is. But here's the thing. The corner rolled 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.560 out to the scene and I made the determination then 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.720 that she was not going to have an autopsy. And 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.480 this is a forty nine year old woman that famously 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:20.760 had been training for a marathon. It's not like she's 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:25.880 in she's stabilitate, you know, like God called and suddenly 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:30.520 she's gone. And you really run the risk if you're 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.360 the medical legal authority and you decide not to do 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:36.240 the autopsy. And I don't have much patience with people 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.960 saying that the family didn't want it. It's when you're 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:44.559 in a clinical environment. And at least this is my assessment. 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.199 Families will come, I think, to the clinical environment that 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.960 is a hospital environment where there's a known natural, you know, 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:58.000 pathology that's going on, and they will say we want 0:09:58.040 --> 0:09:59.720 an autopsy. Most time, they're going to have to pay 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.200 for it, unless there's some kind of overriding interest the 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:06.679 hospital has for either research or maybe you know, liability, 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.559 They want to do it, and they'll compel the pathologists 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:15.120 to do it. But in the medical legal world, we 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.320 try as best we can. I promise we really do 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.160 to be as compassionate with the families that we try 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.320 to extend as much compassion as we can and take 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:31.480 everything into consideration. But when you're faced with something that 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.800 might wind up being very dark, very very dark, and 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.000 you just have that gut feeling. I don't go on 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:40.800 gut feelings. I'm a scientist for as at the time, 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.200 but you just you get that feeling about a case. 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.880 It's like, we really, we really need to do the 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:50.440 autopsy on this case. Family's going to protest, well, you know, 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:56.600 you go in and make your apologies because the authority 0:10:56.600 --> 0:10:58.719 of the corner of the medical examiner is generally going 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:01.000 to trump any of the families wishes. Now they can 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.679 retain an attorney and they can get an injunction, and 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.040 we've had that happen for in those sorts of things. 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.439 But I think that it's probably in the best nentwest 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:13.160 certainly of the courts and the community, for the autopsy 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:14.079 to be performed. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.839 You're making me think of a vintage case of Mary 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.439 Joe Capacni. Does her name sound familiar to you? That 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:26.480 Ted Kennedy chap equittickquit but when they pulled her out 0:11:26.520 --> 0:11:27.880 of the water, they just were like. 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:28.760 Yeah, she drowned. 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:37.120 Yeah, And and you know, and famously, that case, famously, 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:42.360 that case, uh, for years and years has gone there 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.240 have always been questions, and I'll go one even better, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:49.240 and Lord knows, I don't want to go down a conspiratory, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:55.040 conspiratorial rabbit hole. However, I extensively last year I covered 0:11:55.760 --> 0:12:01.199 in on my podcast. I spent time talking about the 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:07.800 Kennedy assassination and arguably they had Yeah, I could safely 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:10.240 say probably two of the biggest incompetents on the face 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.360 of the planet that they turned that precious man's body 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.600 over to after a homicide. He was a homicide victim. 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.280 Doesn't matter that he was a president. There were no rules, 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:28.640 no laws in place regarding the assassination investigations relative to 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:32.280 the president until like sixty six. This happened in sixty three, 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.640 So he's a homicide victim. That took place in Dallas County, 0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:42.719 and there was a forensic pathologist, doctor Rose, who had 0:12:42.720 --> 0:12:46.160 done all of his training up in Iowa, and he 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.720 famously attempted to prevent them from removing the president's body 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:55.920 from Parkland, and there's eyewitnessed this, eyewitnesses saying that they 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.120 pushed him against the wall, put their hand on their 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.000 weapon and said, his body's going with us, and he's 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.320 he's like you know, and he was newly And here's 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.760 the interesting intersection here. I love history. He was the 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:15.760 first medical examiner they'd ever had. Texas does not have corners, 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.160 and they don't take they have medical examiners. But did 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.840 you know that the justice of the peace in Texas 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:27.320 is the de facto corners. It's an interesting little law, 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.720 and you'll find those all over the country. But my 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:33.520 point is is that you had this man who was 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:36.520 turned out to be a very highly esteemed forensic pathologist 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:42.839 that saw gunshot ones regularly, and he was at their 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:46.319 disposal and they put the president's body on that plane 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.840 and flew him back to BETHOSDA, and he was under 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:55.440 the care of two people that had never they were forensic, 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:58.360 they were pathologists, not forensic, but had never done a 0:13:58.400 --> 0:14:01.360 forensic case between the two of them, and you're talking 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:06.680 about obviously the biggest forensic case in I don't know. 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.760 I guess you could argue us history because it's still 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.480 impacting us today as we speak right now, and so 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:17.719 his body has turned over to these people and did 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.120 it in front of an audience. There's some estimates there 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:25.160 were probably thirty people in the autopsy suite, little or 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:30.440 no accountability of chain of evidence was not intact. You 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:33.480 actually had FBI agents sitting there taking notes and they 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:34.800 couldn't believe what they were seeing. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:37.080 It was. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:42.880 And it's interesting, isn't it. Where it seems the more 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.840 high profile the case gets, the more fingers get in 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.920 the pot. And many times I believe that if you 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:57.320 will just allow allow these experts to do their job 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:02.120 to begin with, from Jump Street, there'll be a well 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.960 many less headaches in the world, you know. And again 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.480 I can't emphasize enough. We're still paying the price for this. 0:15:08.880 --> 0:15:11.560 I feel like that I say this often. We call 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:15.120 it in the hospital the VIP treatment because when they 0:15:15.160 --> 0:15:19.160 come into the hospital, a person that's famous or high 0:15:19.240 --> 0:15:22.360 profile or anything, it just starts off with them getting 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.760 a fake name and the mix ups and the just 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.080 the special treatment. And you know, normally you just get 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.440 your specimen thrown on a bag on the countertop, but 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.360 now you're just someone brings it down to you, and 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:38.600 it's getting handled specially it's going on the machine for 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.400 histology faster than it normally would. And then this is 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:44.720 when mistakes happen because you're not just letting people do 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.000 the proper procedure. And it happens all the time. There's 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:49.520 so much documentation of it. 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:55.000 Yeah, and any times someone is allowed to isn't that interesting? 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.520 You know? Even after death people jump on the line 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:01.640 or cut the line. Yeah, and you start acting outside 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.240 the norms, the acceptable norms of what your standard procedure is. 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.720 Anytime you deviate from that, there's a price to be paid. 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:13.440 And when it comes to the courts, it comes to 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:18.200 the courts when you deviate from your normal sop, that's 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.160 a real problem if you're trying to prosecute a case 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:25.440 or And I don't care either way, you know, even 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.560 though I'm a medical legal death investigator by trade and 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:33.440 a forensic practitioner, I'm neither pro prosecution or pro defense. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.960 I want the answers. I want those black and white 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.280 scientific answers and let everybody else sort it out at 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.160 the end. I'm not about seeking justice, and there's enough 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.800 people there on that train. I like my little space 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:49.400 on my train, my little space on my train. We 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:52.480 love to make scientific discovery and hand it over to 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.760 everybody here. You can take a look, you can take 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.000 a look, you can make your own assessment. But this 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:01.600 is the judgment that we've made. And going back to Kennedy, 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.000 one of the really interesting things I think that people 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.040 might find fascinating about the Kennedy case is that when 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:14.320 Bobby Kennedy was assassinated doctor Tom Magucci, who is arguably 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.399 one of the most famous forensic pathologists, American forensic pathologists ever, 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:23.480 and he was referred to as the coroner to the stars. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.199 You know, this kind of goes along with what you 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:28.440 were saying, but you know, stars were not for him. 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.880 You know, he had done Marilyn Monroe, he did John Belushi, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:35.040 he did Tate lot Bianca. He was physically the scene 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:38.240 in those cases. But he also did the bombs, you know, 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.160 he did the homeless people, the unknowns, all the serial 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.480 victims that had come through during the sixties and into 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.800 the seventies in the eighties. He he was no respector 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.200 of persons in that sense. He viewed everybody the same. 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.720 And when it came Tom in this one exception and 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.600 This is a good exception. When Bobby Kennedy was assassinated 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:04.080 I think it was the Ambassador Hotel. Doctor Magucci said, Okay, 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:06.639 this is what we're going to do. First off, no 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.960 one is going to be allowed into the autopsy. Was 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:13.199 sweet unless I allow them in because he as you know, 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:16.880 I field is so small, news travels fast, and back 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.600 then it was even smaller. He only allowed the technicians, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:25.159 the photographer, and fell a forensic pathologist in that suite. 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:31.919 And he personally invited one of the forensic pathologists, the 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.560 guy that headed up the ballistic section for the Armed 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.399 Forces Institute of Pathology, which by the way, no longer 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:42.600 exists and it's old construct. It's that's the meta. It 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.760 was back then considered the medical examiner for the Armed Forces. 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.760 They did a lot of the ballistic studies on cadavers 0:18:49.800 --> 0:18:51.440 and that sort of thing years and years ago. Anyway, 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.320 this guy headed up that program. He's a forensic pathologist boarded. 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:58.919 They invited him to fly out to LA and so 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.320 Nogucci had witnessed everything and this is a real touched 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:08.960 on moment in history, forensic history and forensicthology in particular. 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.840 He was so impacted by what had happened to Kennedy. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.679 He was like, well, it wouldn't have happened on my watch, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.119 but by God that ever happens here, I'm gonna have 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.320 eyes on this thing and it's going to be documented 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.080 from stem to stern. And he did a great job 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:28.439 of that. But guess what, there's still tons and tons 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.120 of conspiracy theories that surround Bobby Kennedy's death. How much 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.040 more so if you look at his brother, where you 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.640 had two people that had no background in forensics doing 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.040 those doing that autopsy. Now you've left the door open 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:43.840 even wider. 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.639 Well, that's what happens people. One thing, you give people doubt, 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.680 and now you see it happening in modern day. Right now, 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.199 even that you just don't trust anything because of the 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:55.720 way things were handled. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.239 Right, you don't. You don't as far as you can 0:19:58.280 --> 0:19:58.600 throw it. 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.359 And it's interesting that you we were talking earlier about 0:20:01.400 --> 0:20:04.919 how students can't observe autopsies anymore. It's it's very difficult 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.359 when you think about back in the day, there was 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:12.400 audiences watching these autopsies, and I think that now that's 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:14.600 part of the reason, at least I've seen in the 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:18.960 hospital because I've been in the hospital system now twenty 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.680 five years around the autopsy, and I saw it when 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.760 I first started that I was able to have, you know, 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.640 if there was a student that was interested in being 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:29.320 a nurse, they could come observe the autopsy, right. And 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.760 I do think that that's important because you should really 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.680 understand every aspect of life and death, if you're dealing 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.119 with live patients or not. But I saw that to 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.800 having med students all the time, and then at my 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.200 most recent job, they just wouldn't even let medical students 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.560 in to watch the autopsy. They were like, only essential 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.040 personnel that needs to be there. 0:20:51.800 --> 0:20:56.119 Yeah, it's a terrible state of affairs. I can't speak 0:20:56.160 --> 0:21:01.080 about your experience, but I can talk to you about mine. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:07.080 I don't have the same clinical academic experience that you have, 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:12.280 having come through a pathology assistant program. My master's degree 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.280 is in forensic science. And so I was a true 0:21:15.760 --> 0:21:18.600 real life deaner, you know, the old term that they 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.359 would use for autopsy assistant, which I think is German 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:24.520 roughly translates like a servant of the dead or something 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:27.879 like that. And I was proudly a deaner because I 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.840 learned from a lot of really talented old guys, guys 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.320 that you know, I could tell you stories about them 0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:38.520 taking a striker saw in beveling, doing beveling on the 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.680 skull cap and so they could make it perfectly lock 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:43.800 and they would take and they could do it quickly 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:48.160 because they had to deal with such a volume of cases. 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:52.600 Guys that could use a handsaw to take a calvarium 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:58.359 off where you know, it's hard, it is very hard task. 0:21:58.400 --> 0:22:00.920 Whether it would take it would take hours. But these 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.440 old guys that were so uniquely trained, where if you 0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.480 had an agitating striker saw, it was a luxury for them, 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:09.720 you know, the first can you imagine the first one 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.320 they ever got. And I know this seems a bit 0:22:12.359 --> 0:22:12.920 out in the weeks. 0:22:13.560 --> 0:22:15.320 They still suck and break all the time. 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.199 It's like, yeah, they do, they do. And you know 0:22:18.320 --> 0:22:22.359 it's it's that weld right at the axis right there 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:25.360 that always fractured for me. And of course the blades 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.560 are that's you know, you'll buy the body itself, the 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.320 body of the saw itself, and that's that is it's 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.320 kind of like buying razor blades. They'll almost give you 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:38.840 the handle. It's the damn blades that cost so much 0:22:38.920 --> 0:22:42.720 over a period of time. But you know, I think 0:22:42.800 --> 0:22:48.239 back from my experience the autopsy suite, by far in 0:22:48.240 --> 0:22:52.320 my field is a medical legal death investigator, hands down, 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:57.400 best classroom I've ever been in in my life. It's nothing, 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:02.600 I mean, nothing compares to the experiences I had in 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:06.920 the autopsy suite, and it dealt dealing with everything from 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:10.800 just starting out as a scribe for the forensic pathologist 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:15.160 and having I still have visions of all of those 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:19.560 clipboards lined up, you know, on the table, and having 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:23.159 five and six bodies laid out and ready for the 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.600 pathologists to walk in and Buddy, when we're rolling, we're rolling, 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.040 we're hitting and getting it. We're going. And some of 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.760 these cases, some case might take us an hour and 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:34.760 ten minutes from open to clothes. And then you might 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.560 have some young person that has died of some mysterious 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:41.560 circumstance where you think that it might be natural, but 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:46.359 there might be you know, other issues. And then you 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:49.120 might have I don't know, and this is not in common. 0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:51.720 You have somebody that is morbidly obese and they're shot 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:55.000 multiple times with small caliber weapons and you have to 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:58.240 track all of those rounds through the body and document 0:23:58.280 --> 0:24:00.840 that as you're doing it photographically. That case can take 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.720