1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 2 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, Welcome The Mother Knows Death. Today is our 3 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 2: one hundredth episode, and to celebrate, we are having a 4 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: special episode with the host of Body Bags Podcasts, Joseph 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan. You may know Joseph from his frequent appearances 6 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: on Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Court TV and other 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 2: major news outlets, or as the author of Blood Beneath 8 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: My Feet, The Journey of a Southern Death Investigator. Joseph 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: holds a Master of Forensic Science degree from National University 10 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 2: and is a Board Certified Fellow of the American Board 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 2: of Medical Legal Death Investigators. Currently, he's an Associate Professor 12 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: of Applied Forensics at Jacksonville State University in Alabama. Joseph 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: started working in forensics in the eighties, and throughout his 14 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: career he's been involved in thousands of medical legal death 15 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: investigations and autopsies. Please welcome Joseph Scott Morgan to Mother 16 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 2: Knows Death. Hi, Joseph, it's so exciting to have you 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: here today. 18 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's truly I would have appear 19 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 3: on a lot of podcasts and chat with people I 20 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 3: feel like I'm talking with a colleague right now, and 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: so that's really cool for me. A different kind of colleague, 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 3: but a colleague just the same. It's an honor to 23 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: be with you and to chat with you and your audience. 24 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 4: Thank you. 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: I think it's I'm so excited to speak with you 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 2: because there's not really many of us that do autopsies anymore. 27 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: So when you get to meet someone that does the 28 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: same thing that you do or has done or whatever 29 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 2: you're doing right now, that it's so exciting that you 30 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: get to kind of talk shop because there's just a 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 2: limited amount of people that actually do it. Maybe we 32 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: should talk about a little why autops aren't as common 33 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: as they used to be. 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 3: I don't know if you're from my little slice of 35 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 3: the pie, just from my perspective of what I observe, 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 3: because I know I'm a college professor now and I 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 3: have kids that I know you've had this happen for you. 38 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 3: It's I've had kids that you know. They come to 39 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,639 Speaker 3: me and they beg and they plead, Professor Morgan, can 40 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 3: you please take us to an autopsy? Can we go 41 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 3: see an autopsy? And when I was their age and 42 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 3: was getting started in the field. You know, there were 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: any number of places you could go. Corners, offices many 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 3: times would welcome you in these offices, and even hospitals. 45 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 3: But now one word lawyers. That's what I think it 46 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 3: comes down to. I think it comes down to liability, 47 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 3: and it's it's tough to get people in the door. 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: I don't know that hospitals in particular are doing as 49 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: many autopsies as they used to. Hospital pathologists always always 50 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 3: kind of had a reputation that they would spend They 51 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: would prefer to spend more time in front of a 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 3: scope than being down and doing you know, the actual 53 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: gross dissection of you know, the remains in total and 54 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 3: you know, and my my career as a death investigator 55 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 3: kind of leached over into that area because I would 56 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: go around to private hospitals and the pathology groups and 57 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 3: I'd say, look, you know, I'm looking to pick up 58 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: some extra change. If you guys want me to go 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: in and do this autopsy for you and I can 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: report what I see, you know, cutting all the tissues, 61 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: you know, do everything for you, organ weights dimensionally, you know, 62 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 3: do everything for you. If I see anything, I'll call you. 63 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 3: And they would prefer that I didn't call them, and 64 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: so it was a great It was a great opportunity 65 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 3: for me to sit at their feet and learn, because 66 00:03:58,400 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: it's always a learning opportunity. 67 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 4: It's kind of nice when. 68 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: They don't call you, right because then you really get 69 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 2: time alone with the body to look at things. And 70 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: that's how I feel like. I would say, if I 71 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: see anything different, I'll call you. But that gave me 72 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: time to really see what was normal anatomy and what 73 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: was you know, looking crazy without someone else down your neck, 74 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: breathing down your neck, you. 75 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 3: Know yeah, and you feel like you've got uh, you 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 3: know that you're the you're the apprenticed and and they're 77 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 3: the master, you know uh, And they're standing over you, 78 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 3: hovering about you know, good and well they don't want 79 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 3: to be there. I still have yet to come across 80 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: a clinical pathologists that just she whiz. I wish it 81 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 3: could do an autopsy today the show. 82 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: I know a couple that really yes, and they're. 83 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: The best, and you've got a much broader scope than 84 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: I do. So and I'm comparing them to forensic pathologist. 85 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, because the pathology residents that I used 86 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: to teach, the only ones that were really interested in 87 00:04:57,520 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 2: doing the actual autopsies were the ones that ended up 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 2: going into forensics. 89 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,359 Speaker 3: So yeah, and you know there's certainly no limit on those. 90 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 3: Isn't it interesting? You know pathology from a physician standpoint, 91 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: I think is I say this, uh frequently, it's like 92 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 3: the only the only medical training that one can go through. 93 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: And the more training you get, the less money. And 94 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 3: so if you're going to become a forensic pathologist, yeah, 95 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 3: you're going to start out as a government employee. That's 96 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: that's the way that happens. And you can develop a 97 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: private consultancy and do very well, but that has its 98 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 3: hazards along the way. I can discuss that, you know, 99 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: for you know, for people that are curious because you know, 100 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: there's I have people that reach out to me because 101 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: I cover all true crime stuff and they know my background. 102 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 3: They're like, families, can you recommend a forensic pathologist to me? 103 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: The problem with that is, yeah, I can recommend them, 104 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: but as we say, down here in the South, there 105 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 3: there's rare hen's teeth. You don't you can't, you can't 106 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 3: find them very frequently. He probably find and I'm talking 107 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 3: about a board certified forensic pathologist not somebody that is 108 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 3: a pathologist that claims they practice forensics. Gulf of difference, 109 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 3: it'd be easier to find a neurosurgeon in most places. 110 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, people don't really, They're like the most highly specialized doctors, right. 111 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 2: People just don't realize that. 112 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah they are. And they've left the clinical, the 113 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,039 Speaker 3: traditional clinical world behind. I mean we in forensics, we 114 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 3: have our own clinical you know, dynamic. Obviously we're examining bodies, 115 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: were making diagnosies, uh, and we're assessing you know, laps 116 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 3: that come in. Lord knows, histology is a big part 117 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 3: of what we do. Uh, and obviously talks uh and 118 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: then just stand their panels, you know, with everything you 119 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 3: know that walks through the door, well rolls for the 120 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 3: because we're I've never been a big fan of of 121 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 3: partial autopsies. I'm of the opinion, once you break out 122 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 3: the cold steel, everybody should go through because you're you're 123 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: you're running too much of a risk by only doing 124 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 3: a partial autopsy. There was a whole group of people 125 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 3: for a long time I remember that you could have, 126 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 3: for instance, a self inflicted gunshot, one with suicide case, 127 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 3: and they bury bodies with bullets in the head. I've 128 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: never been a fan of that at all, and I've 129 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: seen that happen over and over and over again, and 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 3: a lot of times it's I think that it's because 131 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: of expediency, but you know, it's those cases that you're 132 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 3: going to wind up giving a deposition on them because 133 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: somebody's going to get in a twist over it, or 134 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: new evidence will be being covered in in the future. 135 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: And you know in forensics, if you don't do it 136 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 3: out of the gate, that body is going to wind 137 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 3: up in one or two places, either bare married and 138 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 3: vaulted and having been embombed in most cases, or cremated. 139 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: And so now you're you're looking for for evidence in 140 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 3: a case. And a great example I think that I 141 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: covered for years now has been the Tammy Davell case 142 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: out of Idaho, where you know, she presented early in 143 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 3: the morning, her husband found her, found her dead on 144 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 3: the floor. She had some kind of frothy cone that 145 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 3: her children actually came to the house, or adult children, 146 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 3: and UH visualized it was issuing forth from her nose 147 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: and her mouth. And most of the time, you know, 148 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 3: we're only going to see that. You know, if we 149 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 3: have we see it a lot in drug odes, particularly 150 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 3: was opiates, and you see it with his six illed 151 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 3: us and of course he was like found guilty in 152 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 3: her case in addition to two children, they killed her 153 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 3: husband that is. But here's the thing. The corner rolled 154 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: out to the scene and I made the determination then 155 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 3: that she was not going to have an autopsy. And 156 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 3: this is a forty nine year old woman that famously 157 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: had been training for a marathon. It's not like she's 158 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: in she's stabilitate, you know, like God called and suddenly 159 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: she's gone. And you really run the risk if you're 160 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: the medical legal authority and you decide not to do 161 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: the autopsy. And I don't have much patience with people 162 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 3: saying that the family didn't want it. It's when you're 163 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 3: in a clinical environment. And at least this is my assessment. 164 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 3: Families will come, I think, to the clinical environment that 165 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 3: is a hospital environment where there's a known natural, you know, 166 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 3: pathology that's going on, and they will say we want 167 00:09:58,040 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 3: an autopsy. Most time, they're going to have to pay 168 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 3: for it, unless there's some kind of overriding interest the 169 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 3: hospital has for either research or maybe you know, liability, 170 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 3: They want to do it, and they'll compel the pathologists 171 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: to do it. But in the medical legal world, we 172 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: try as best we can. I promise we really do 173 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: to be as compassionate with the families that we try 174 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 3: to extend as much compassion as we can and take 175 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: everything into consideration. But when you're faced with something that 176 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 3: might wind up being very dark, very very dark, and 177 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: you just have that gut feeling. I don't go on 178 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 3: gut feelings. I'm a scientist for as at the time, 179 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 3: but you just you get that feeling about a case. 180 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 3: It's like, we really, we really need to do the 181 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 3: autopsy on this case. Family's going to protest, well, you know, 182 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: you go in and make your apologies because the authority 183 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 3: of the corner of the medical examiner is generally going 184 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 3: to trump any of the families wishes. Now they can 185 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 3: retain an attorney and they can get an injunction, and 186 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: we've had that happen for in those sorts of things. 187 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 3: But I think that it's probably in the best nentwest 188 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 3: certainly of the courts and the community, for the autopsy 189 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 3: to be performed. 190 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: You're making me think of a vintage case of Mary 191 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 2: Joe Capacni. Does her name sound familiar to you? That 192 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 2: Ted Kennedy chap equittickquit but when they pulled her out 193 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 2: of the water, they just were like. 194 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, she drowned. 195 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, And and you know, and famously, that case, famously, 196 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: that case, uh, for years and years has gone there 197 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: have always been questions, and I'll go one even better, 198 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 3: and Lord knows, I don't want to go down a conspiratory, 199 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 3: conspiratorial rabbit hole. However, I extensively last year I covered 200 00:11:55,760 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 3: in on my podcast. I spent time talking about the 201 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 3: Kennedy assassination and arguably they had Yeah, I could safely 202 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: say probably two of the biggest incompetents on the face 203 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 3: of the planet that they turned that precious man's body 204 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: over to after a homicide. He was a homicide victim. 205 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 3: Doesn't matter that he was a president. There were no rules, 206 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 3: no laws in place regarding the assassination investigations relative to 207 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 3: the president until like sixty six. This happened in sixty three, 208 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 3: So he's a homicide victim. That took place in Dallas County, 209 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,719 Speaker 3: and there was a forensic pathologist, doctor Rose, who had 210 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: done all of his training up in Iowa, and he 211 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 3: famously attempted to prevent them from removing the president's body 212 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 3: from Parkland, and there's eyewitnessed this, eyewitnesses saying that they 213 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: pushed him against the wall, put their hand on their 214 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: weapon and said, his body's going with us, and he's 215 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 3: he's like you know, and he was newly And here's 216 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: the interesting intersection here. I love history. He was the 217 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 3: first medical examiner they'd ever had. Texas does not have corners, 218 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 3: and they don't take they have medical examiners. But did 219 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 3: you know that the justice of the peace in Texas 220 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 3: is the de facto corners. It's an interesting little law, 221 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 3: and you'll find those all over the country. But my 222 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 3: point is is that you had this man who was 223 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: turned out to be a very highly esteemed forensic pathologist 224 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 3: that saw gunshot ones regularly, and he was at their 225 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 3: disposal and they put the president's body on that plane 226 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 3: and flew him back to BETHOSDA, and he was under 227 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 3: the care of two people that had never they were forensic, 228 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: they were pathologists, not forensic, but had never done a 229 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 3: forensic case between the two of them, and you're talking 230 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: about obviously the biggest forensic case in I don't know. 231 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: I guess you could argue us history because it's still 232 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 3: impacting us today as we speak right now, and so 233 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,719 Speaker 3: his body has turned over to these people and did 234 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: it in front of an audience. There's some estimates there 235 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: were probably thirty people in the autopsy suite, little or 236 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 3: no accountability of chain of evidence was not intact. You 237 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: actually had FBI agents sitting there taking notes and they 238 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 3: couldn't believe what they were seeing. 239 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: It was. 240 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 3: And it's interesting, isn't it. Where it seems the more 241 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 3: high profile the case gets, the more fingers get in 242 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 3: the pot. And many times I believe that if you 243 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: will just allow allow these experts to do their job 244 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: to begin with, from Jump Street, there'll be a well 245 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 3: many less headaches in the world, you know. And again 246 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 3: I can't emphasize enough. We're still paying the price for this. 247 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: I feel like that I say this often. We call 248 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: it in the hospital the VIP treatment because when they 249 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 2: come into the hospital, a person that's famous or high 250 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 2: profile or anything, it just starts off with them getting 251 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 2: a fake name and the mix ups and the just 252 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: the special treatment. And you know, normally you just get 253 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: your specimen thrown on a bag on the countertop, but 254 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 2: now you're just someone brings it down to you, and 255 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: it's getting handled specially it's going on the machine for 256 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: histology faster than it normally would. And then this is 257 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: when mistakes happen because you're not just letting people do 258 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 2: the proper procedure. And it happens all the time. There's 259 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: so much documentation of it. 260 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and any times someone is allowed to isn't that interesting? 261 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 3: You know? Even after death people jump on the line 262 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 3: or cut the line. Yeah, and you start acting outside 263 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 3: the norms, the acceptable norms of what your standard procedure is. 264 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 3: Anytime you deviate from that, there's a price to be paid. 265 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 3: And when it comes to the courts, it comes to 266 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 3: the courts when you deviate from your normal sop, that's 267 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 3: a real problem if you're trying to prosecute a case 268 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 3: or And I don't care either way, you know, even 269 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: though I'm a medical legal death investigator by trade and 270 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 3: a forensic practitioner, I'm neither pro prosecution or pro defense. 271 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 3: I want the answers. I want those black and white 272 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 3: scientific answers and let everybody else sort it out at 273 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 3: the end. I'm not about seeking justice, and there's enough 274 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 3: people there on that train. I like my little space 275 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: on my train, my little space on my train. We 276 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 3: love to make scientific discovery and hand it over to 277 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: everybody here. You can take a look, you can take 278 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 3: a look, you can make your own assessment. But this 279 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 3: is the judgment that we've made. And going back to Kennedy, 280 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 3: one of the really interesting things I think that people 281 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 3: might find fascinating about the Kennedy case is that when 282 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: Bobby Kennedy was assassinated doctor Tom Magucci, who is arguably 283 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 3: one of the most famous forensic pathologists, American forensic pathologists ever, 284 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: and he was referred to as the coroner to the stars. 285 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 3: You know, this kind of goes along with what you 286 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 3: were saying, but you know, stars were not for him. 287 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 3: You know, he had done Marilyn Monroe, he did John Belushi, 288 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 3: he did Tate lot Bianca. He was physically the scene 289 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: in those cases. But he also did the bombs, you know, 290 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 3: he did the homeless people, the unknowns, all the serial 291 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 3: victims that had come through during the sixties and into 292 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 3: the seventies in the eighties. He he was no respector 293 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 3: of persons in that sense. He viewed everybody the same. 294 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 3: And when it came Tom in this one exception and 295 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 3: This is a good exception. When Bobby Kennedy was assassinated 296 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 3: I think it was the Ambassador Hotel. Doctor Magucci said, Okay, 297 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 3: this is what we're going to do. First off, no 298 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: one is going to be allowed into the autopsy. Was 299 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 3: sweet unless I allow them in because he as you know, 300 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 3: I field is so small, news travels fast, and back 301 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 3: then it was even smaller. He only allowed the technicians, 302 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 3: the photographer, and fell a forensic pathologist in that suite. 303 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 3: And he personally invited one of the forensic pathologists, the 304 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 3: guy that headed up the ballistic section for the Armed 305 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,399 Speaker 3: Forces Institute of Pathology, which by the way, no longer 306 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: exists and it's old construct. It's that's the meta. It 307 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: was back then considered the medical examiner for the Armed Forces. 308 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: They did a lot of the ballistic studies on cadavers 309 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 3: and that sort of thing years and years ago. Anyway, 310 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 3: this guy headed up that program. He's a forensic pathologist boarded. 311 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 3: They invited him to fly out to LA and so 312 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 3: Nogucci had witnessed everything and this is a real touched 313 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 3: on moment in history, forensic history and forensicthology in particular. 314 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: He was so impacted by what had happened to Kennedy. 315 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 3: He was like, well, it wouldn't have happened on my watch, 316 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 3: but by God that ever happens here, I'm gonna have 317 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: eyes on this thing and it's going to be documented 318 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 3: from stem to stern. And he did a great job 319 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 3: of that. But guess what, there's still tons and tons 320 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 3: of conspiracy theories that surround Bobby Kennedy's death. How much 321 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: more so if you look at his brother, where you 322 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 3: had two people that had no background in forensics doing 323 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 3: those doing that autopsy. Now you've left the door open 324 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: even wider. 325 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 2: Well, that's what happens people. One thing, you give people doubt, 326 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 2: and now you see it happening in modern day. Right now, 327 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,199 Speaker 2: even that you just don't trust anything because of the 328 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: way things were handled. 329 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,239 Speaker 3: Right, you don't. You don't as far as you can 330 00:19:58,280 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 3: throw it. 331 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 2: And it's interesting that you we were talking earlier about 332 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 2: how students can't observe autopsies anymore. It's it's very difficult 333 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 2: when you think about back in the day, there was 334 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 2: audiences watching these autopsies, and I think that now that's 335 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: part of the reason, at least I've seen in the 336 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 2: hospital because I've been in the hospital system now twenty 337 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: five years around the autopsy, and I saw it when 338 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: I first started that I was able to have, you know, 339 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 2: if there was a student that was interested in being 340 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: a nurse, they could come observe the autopsy, right. And 341 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 2: I do think that that's important because you should really 342 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: understand every aspect of life and death, if you're dealing 343 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 2: with live patients or not. But I saw that to 344 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 2: having med students all the time, and then at my 345 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: most recent job, they just wouldn't even let medical students 346 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: in to watch the autopsy. They were like, only essential 347 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: personnel that needs to be there. 348 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a terrible state of affairs. I can't speak 349 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: about your experience, but I can talk to you about mine. 350 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: I don't have the same clinical academic experience that you have, 351 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 3: having come through a pathology assistant program. My master's degree 352 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: is in forensic science. And so I was a true 353 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: real life deaner, you know, the old term that they 354 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 3: would use for autopsy assistant, which I think is German 355 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: roughly translates like a servant of the dead or something 356 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 3: like that. And I was proudly a deaner because I 357 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 3: learned from a lot of really talented old guys, guys 358 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: that you know, I could tell you stories about them 359 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 3: taking a striker saw in beveling, doing beveling on the 360 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 3: skull cap and so they could make it perfectly lock 361 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 3: and they would take and they could do it quickly 362 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: because they had to deal with such a volume of cases. 363 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 3: Guys that could use a handsaw to take a calvarium 364 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 3: off where you know, it's hard, it is very hard task. 365 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 3: Whether it would take it would take hours. But these 366 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 3: old guys that were so uniquely trained, where if you 367 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 3: had an agitating striker saw, it was a luxury for them, 368 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 3: you know, the first can you imagine the first one 369 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: they ever got. And I know this seems a bit 370 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 3: out in the weeks. 371 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 4: They still suck and break all the time. 372 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, they do, they do. And you know 373 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 3: it's it's that weld right at the axis right there 374 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 3: that always fractured for me. And of course the blades 375 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 3: are that's you know, you'll buy the body itself, the 376 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 3: body of the saw itself, and that's that is it's 377 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 3: kind of like buying razor blades. They'll almost give you 378 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: the handle. It's the damn blades that cost so much 379 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 3: over a period of time. But you know, I think 380 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:48,239 Speaker 3: back from my experience the autopsy suite, by far in 381 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: my field is a medical legal death investigator, hands down, 382 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 3: best classroom I've ever been in in my life. It's nothing, 383 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 3: I mean, nothing compares to the experiences I had in 384 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: the autopsy suite, and it dealt dealing with everything from 385 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 3: just starting out as a scribe for the forensic pathologist 386 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 3: and having I still have visions of all of those 387 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: clipboards lined up, you know, on the table, and having 388 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 3: five and six bodies laid out and ready for the 389 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 3: pathologists to walk in and Buddy, when we're rolling, we're rolling, 390 00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: we're hitting and getting it. We're going. And some of 391 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: these cases, some case might take us an hour and 392 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: ten minutes from open to clothes. And then you might 393 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: have some young person that has died of some mysterious 394 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: circumstance where you think that it might be natural, but 395 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 3: there might be you know, other issues. And then you 396 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,120 Speaker 3: might have I don't know, and this is not in common. 397 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 3: You have somebody that is morbidly obese and they're shot 398 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: multiple times with small caliber weapons and you have to 399 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: track all of those rounds through the body and document 400 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: that as you're doing it photographically. That case can take 401 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: sometimes four or five hours, not to mention the X 402 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: rays that come along with it. And so the reason 403 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: I'm saying this is that everything everything that I did 404 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 3: in the morgue, and I think I wound up doing 405 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: close to seven thousand autopsies over the course of my career, 406 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 3: everything I did in the morgue translated to the field. 407 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 3: And the reason it translated to the field so well 408 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 3: is that I was the eyes in the ears of 409 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 3: the forensic pathologist, and I've had forgive my language. I'd 410 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 3: had my assitude out enough that I knew what they 411 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 3: wanted in the field, and that would translate to me 412 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 3: clinically in my brain when when I was observing a 413 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: body of a scene, whether it was a homicide, of suicide, undetermined, 414 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: industrial laxity, it didn't matter. I knew my pathologist like 415 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 3: the back of my hand, and I could say, Okay, 416 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 3: for this particular pathologist, They're going to want this, this, 417 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 3: and this, and gonna want to know why I didn't 418 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 3: get it if it was not not obtained. 419 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: So you're exactly like a PA, Yeah, I memstance, Yeah 420 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 2: it is you know, and we you know, and so 421 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 2: we have to do things with trace evidence that you 422 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: guys probably don't do, and nail scrapings and nail clippings 423 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: and doing rape kits and. 424 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 3: You know, swaps for DNA, and I mean you name it, printing, 425 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 3: printing the dead and then dealing I think one of 426 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 3: the probably for me, you get used to it, but 427 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:42,040 Speaker 3: bodies in advanced states of decomposition because if you get 428 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 3: past the grotesque nature of it, which eventually you do, 429 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 3: there's so many other hidden, hidden, hidden secrets within those 430 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 3: bodies because of decay and the obstacles that that presents 431 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 3: for you if you're trying to do an assessment of 432 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 3: the remains or what remains of the soft tissue that's there, 433 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: because it's I hate this term because it's thrown around 434 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 3: a lot, but it is nuanced. It's nuanced by the 435 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 3: fact that are they in an early state of decomposition? 436 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 3: Is it a moderate? Isn't advanced? Is it like super advance? 437 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: Where you've got you've got sculptal remains that are visible, 438 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: you know, with kind of a bit of soft tissue 439 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 3: still left over stretched over you know, where your knee 440 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 3: is going to be am I going to have to 441 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 3: cut the jaws out of this person? Am I going 442 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 3: to have to clip their fingertips off and shoot them 443 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 3: with tissue builder in order to get the fingertips to 444 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: swell up so I can get a print off of them. 445 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 3: You know, all of these little things that you have 446 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 3: to learn how to do, and you have to learn 447 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 3: to do it on the fly because you move it 448 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 3: such you move at such a rapid pace if you're 449 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 3: at a big medical examiner's office, there's not time to 450 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 3: kind of linger and think about it. You. Starting my 451 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: career down in New Orleans, there was I love this 452 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: by the way, the er nurses would and the er 453 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 3: physicians in particular. I developed an affinity for them because 454 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 3: I'd always go to the emergency room because I'd have 455 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 3: so many traumatic cases gunshot wounds and motive a collapse. 456 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: They got to know them a lot. And so we 457 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: had faculty members there from LSU and Tulane Med and 458 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 3: they had a theme and for a while they had 459 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 3: it up on the wall and in one of the 460 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 3: emergency areas and it said see one, do one, teach one, 461 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: and so you've seen it, now to do it now. 462 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: The next person up you have to teach it to them. 463 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 4: I love that. 464 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 3: Just imagine that, And that's really the only way you 465 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 3: can deal with the volume you know that's coming in. 466 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that just because you've seen a lot 467 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 3: of cases that you're smarter than anybody else. Far from it, 468 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 3: because there are people that work in rural areas that 469 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 3: have seen things I can't even begin to imagine. But 470 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 3: there's something to be said for volume. You know, you 471 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 3: it's not a drips, it's steady parade of bodies coming in. 472 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you got a. 473 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,199 Speaker 2: Good representation of pathology and just it is interesting though 474 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 2: when you're in different areas how you see different injuries 475 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 2: that are more common in that particular part of the country. 476 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: And then, like I was writing about a case recently 477 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 2: of a town in Africa that sees a lot of 478 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: people who get stabbed in the eye, and that's not 479 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: something that really happens that often in America that you 480 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: wouldn't see those wounds commonly, but in that particular gang, 481 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: that's something they see more often. 482 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 3: So Wow, it's cool, that's very interesting finding. Yeah, you 483 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: don't see that a lot. I've had it with overkill before, 484 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 3: with stabbings but it was a very impassioned kind of thing, 485 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 3: like there was generally some kind of underlying sexual tone. 486 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 3: I'm going to rip you the strid so nobody else 487 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 3: will have you. But you're right, that's that type of 488 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 3: event is very rare, you know, where you would have 489 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 3: somebody attacked with a sharp instrument in the eyes. 490 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: And one of the cool things that I love about 491 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 2: autopsy is that it just like I'll do as many 492 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: as I can for the rest of my life because 493 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: I always will be able to see something different at 494 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: some point. You just see even if it's just like 495 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: a normal anatomic variation or something someone's got to your orders. 496 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 2: And one time I just found a horseshoe kidney by accident. 497 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: It was the greatest day of my life. 498 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 3: I know my too, I had the same experience for 499 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: a horseshoe kidney, and as a matter of fact, I 500 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 3: wrote about it not too long ago, and a piece 501 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 3: that I was working on and I was with my 502 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 3: mentor who's passed on now got rest his soul, Bill Donovant. 503 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 3: He's actually from Scranton, Pennsylvania, and transplanted down here in 504 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: South to go to college and became probably arguably one 505 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: of the best forensic scientists I'd ever known, and I 506 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 3: found we were working on case and I came across 507 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: the horseshe kidney and I've never seen it, you know. 508 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 3: It was amazing to me. And I said, wow, checked 509 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 3: us out and he was like, that's a horseshoe kidney. 510 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 3: I said, never seen none. He says, well, go ahead 511 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 3: and dissect it out, you know, and I'll grab a camera. 512 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 3: And so I held it from my face like I 513 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: had a big handlebar mustach and you know, that's that's 514 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 3: typically you know, kind of how how we would you know, 515 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 3: that was like a treat for us to do something 516 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 3: like that, and you you know, the cool thing about 517 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 3: it is you never know. And I don't know. Maybe 518 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 3: I'm I'm I've always been and occupied the space in 519 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 3: the world of the dead. But I'm also kind of sentimental, 520 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 3: I think, which is a dangerous combination. And one of 521 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 3: the ways I would look at it is that every 522 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 3: opportunity I had to do an autopsy, I would think 523 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 3: to myself, when it wasn't going fast and furious, I 524 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 3: would think, you know what, this is really cool because 525 00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 3: I'm seeing something that no one else has ever seen, 526 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 3: you know, we talked about going to the depths of 527 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 3: the ocean, or going to space, or climbing the mountain 528 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 3: or something like that. But literally, in an autopsy suite, 529 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: you're doing an autopsy on somebody. You're opening the space 530 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 3: up and it's being viewed. You're viewing the space for 531 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 3: the first time. And that that's kind of an odd 532 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 3: thing when you think about. It's a unique thing, you know. 533 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: And then once you begin to do the examination, you're 534 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: going to find these little anomalies, you know, like like 535 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 3: the horse of kidney. And I got to tell you 536 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: about a really cool case that one of the things 537 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 3: that really stuck with me and will for until my 538 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 3: final breath. I had I'd spent time in the Army Guard, 539 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 3: and so I have an affinity for old soldiers. And 540 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 3: when I started my career there was still a lot 541 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 3: of war work two vets around, And I actually played 542 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 3: golf with a War War two vet when I was 543 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 3: like maybe twenty three twenty four. He only had one 544 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 3: arm and he could play golf. Wow, he was an 545 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,960 Speaker 3: amazing golfer. He couldn't hit it any further than about 546 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 3: one hundred and twenty yards, but his swing was so 547 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: grooved with the one arm that he would always fit 548 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 3: in the middle of the fairway. Neat Man lost his 549 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 3: lost his arm in South Pacific and just you know, 550 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 3: he didn't let anything bothering, you know. But I get 551 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 3: a I was on duty as as an investigator with 552 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: the Corner's office. I had split time. I worked as 553 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: an investigator at night and I work in the morgue 554 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 3: end of the day. And that's the way you did 555 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 3: it back then, very tiresome. Couldn't do it now. I 556 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 3: got a call from a nursing home, a nursing home 557 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 3: descert not normally reportable to the Corner of Medical Examiner 558 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: nursing homes and or back then they weren't in hospice cases. 559 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 3: But they called me and it was like, yeah, hey, 560 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 3: how are you guys doing. Where are you calling me? 561 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 3: He said, yeah, we've got a death of a gentleman here. 562 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 3: And he's literally been this would have been I think 563 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: in eighty eight or eighty nine. And he said he 564 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 3: has been under the care, constant care of a physician 565 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 3: since nineteen forty six, like in a retirement home or 566 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 3: in a nursing facility, and he just died. I was 567 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 3: like okay, and said, well he sustained a gunshot wound. 568 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 3: Well there's I was like, okay, I'm interested, what's the story. 569 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 3: And you know, because with homicide, it's true, there is 570 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: in a statute of limitations. It doesn't matter how far 571 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:53,000 Speaker 3: out it goes. And it turned out that this guy 572 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 3: had fought as an eighteen year eighteen or nineteen year 573 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 3: old at the Battle of the Bulge. 574 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 5: Oh wow. 575 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 3: So on that frozen ground in Western Europe Belgium, some 576 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 3: probably equally young German soldier took his Mouser bolt action rifle, 577 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,399 Speaker 3: loaded it with I think it was a seven millimeter round. 578 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: I think that's what they fired, I can't recall, and 579 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 3: took aim and shot this young kid from New Orleans 580 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 3: when he was eighteen or nineteen, and it was superior 581 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 3: to the umbulcus and the round tore through his bowel 582 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 3: and lodged immediately adjacent to I don't know his the 583 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,720 Speaker 3: I don't know if it had the upper lumbar region, 584 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 3: I think, And the technology was at a point and 585 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 3: they had such a volume of cases that they were 586 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 3: able to stem the bleeding. They did a bower section 587 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,760 Speaker 3: on him, so I remember correctly. But he was essentially 588 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 3: paralyzed from that level of his body down and had 589 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 3: remained in that state. So this is a young man, 590 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 3: the bloom of youth, as they say, never got to 591 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 3: have a family, never got to have babies. And he 592 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 3: had languished in this bed for loath these many years. 593 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,800 Speaker 3: And obviously, if you can live this long in the 594 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: nursing facility, somebody's taking good care of you. And I 595 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 3: remember having him on the table and you know, his 596 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 3: tiny asty legs, he's withered in appearance, beautiful mane of 597 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 3: gray hair that was combed back. You know, his dentition 598 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 3: was intact. He'd been taken well, it didn't have bed sores, 599 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 3: which is a rarity and to have been in that long. 600 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:53,239 Speaker 3: And we did X rays on him and you could 601 00:35:53,239 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 3: see that round and it was deformed, and it had 602 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 3: the bone had fused around it, and it was just 603 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 3: this kind of ossified chunk that was adjacent to his 604 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 3: final column. 605 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, imagine how much pain that would have caused. 606 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 3: I know it, and I really often wonder how much 607 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 3: pain did he experience throughout his life and just endure 608 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 3: it like that. And I remember taking the saw and 609 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 3: gently cutting around it and removing it, and it was 610 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,760 Speaker 3: one of those weird kind of experiences where I literally 611 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 3: held history in my hand for a moment. This is 612 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 3: this is a this is a battlefield artifact that I'm 613 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 3: holding that some faceless kid on the other side fired 614 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 3: this weapon at this other young kid who probably in 615 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 3: his mind, I don't know, probably in his mind he 616 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 3: didn't think he was going to get out of there, 617 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 3: but he did get out of there, and then he's 618 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 3: you know, he's thinking, you know, what kind of hope 619 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 3: that I have in the future, It's going to happen 620 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: for me? And here I held it, and I want 621 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 3: you to know. The pathologist that I did the autopsy with, 622 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 3: he ruled the case as a homicide. Interestingly, I was going. 623 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 2: To ask you that because I had a case once 624 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 2: that I had a guy who was a Vietnam vet 625 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,239 Speaker 2: that was shot. But I don't really think he died. 626 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 2: He just he had cancer and stuff, you know, he 627 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,640 Speaker 2: had another cause of death. But when I called the 628 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,240 Speaker 2: EMMY and told them, I was like, I'm just calling 629 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 2: you to report this. You take it if you want. 630 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: I'm just and they're like, we don't care. We like, 631 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 2: we don't need that. But but your case is a 632 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 2: little bit different because his death was ultimately caused by 633 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,320 Speaker 2: consequences of that initial gunshot wound. 634 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 4: So it's really interesting. 635 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 3: It was fascinating to me, and I'll never forget it 636 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 3: when he signed when he primary cause of death was 637 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: we'll see, I think it was multi system failure secondary 638 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 3: to gunshot wound from the distant past. Part three was 639 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 3: gunfire by unknown enemy combatants and that was so weird. 640 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 3: It was so weird, and they ruled it as a 641 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: homicide and you know, just being there, you know, for 642 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 3: that and actually being the one to retrieve that as 643 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 3: the old pathologists used to refer to it, retrieved that missile. 644 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 3: That's the way they refer to projectile back then, to 645 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 3: retrieve that missile. And I remember we turned it over 646 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 3: to the State Crime Lab and they retained it, and 647 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 3: it was just it was just part of history. And 648 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 3: that just goes to the point you never know what 649 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 3: you're going to see. And back to our earlier thesis here, 650 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 3: the idea that people are not having the opportunity to 651 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 3: come into our environment and the world that that you 652 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 3: currently inhabit and that I inhabit because it's like gold 653 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 3: to me. I mean it's like gold being found on 654 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 3: the ground. It's so sad. I've done autopsies. I remember 655 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 3: down in years and years ago, I used to assist 656 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 3: with the State Medical Examiner in Georgia. I was assigned 657 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 3: to the State Medical Examiner there, and I'd have to 658 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 3: travel a little bit and i would go about sixty 659 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 3: miles south to Macon, Georgia, which is home of Mercer 660 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 3: Medical School. And I'd only do weekends. But it was 661 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 3: a busy shop because you would you know, you might 662 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,719 Speaker 3: have after a Friday night and cases come in from 663 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 3: the surrounding area, from the other counties. We might be 664 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 3: looking at sixteen cases in one day, and we would 665 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:50,360 Speaker 3: literally have medical students from Mercer Medical College or medical 666 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,840 Speaker 3: school outside the door waiting for us at six o'clock 667 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 3: just to get in because they didn't get see enough thought, 668 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 3: they didn't get see enough gross anatomy. They didn't have 669 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 3: enough bodies back then to go around. That's terrifying. 670 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 2: Wait, I'm going to tell you the most outrageous thing 671 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,680 Speaker 2: right now. So I went and did an autopsy last summer, 672 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,000 Speaker 2: and there was a medical student there and he was 673 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 2: in his fourth year, like almost getting ready to get 674 00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 2: a residency. He was telling me where he was applying 675 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: and stuff. He looks white as a ghost as soon 676 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: as I make the incision right, and I'm just like, okay, dude, 677 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 2: you're going to pass out. 678 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 4: Like we good. 679 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 2: And he told me that he did not see an 680 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 2: autopsy or do gross anatomy. 681 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 4: Because of COVID. 682 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 3: Like what, How's that? Even? 683 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 4: I don't know. I just I was mind blown. 684 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting. I was. I had like this kind 685 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 3: of weird moment. Actually, it was just yesterday. I was 686 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 3: I'm teaching actually a section I teach a section called 687 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,839 Speaker 3: a class that I created years ago called Medical Legal 688 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 3: Debt Investigation, and I teach you at Jacksonville State in 689 00:40:53,600 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 3: our forensics program. And I was trying to educate my class. 690 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 3: These are all undergraduates on lines of languor and you know, 691 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 3: and I try to tell them from the perspective of 692 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 3: like a contour map, you know, because these kids, most 693 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 3: of these kids have never had excuse me, have never 694 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 3: had human anatomy, certainly not at the level even at 695 00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 3: the upper levels of undergraduate. And there's a reason why 696 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 3: certain incisions are made in the body. And because if 697 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,680 Speaker 3: you go essentially against these contours, almost like going against 698 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 3: the grain. You'll get these nasty, nasty injuries, surgical injuries 699 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 3: as a result. And I was telling them about the 700 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 3: position of an app and decty with the primary side 701 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 3: the McBurney incision, and how it kind of runs in 702 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,000 Speaker 3: this weird diagonal way. And I was twenty years ago. 703 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 3: I would have had students in the class looking at 704 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 3: me going, yeah, I've had an app indectomy. Well, now 705 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 3: all the app anddctomies are done laparoscopically, so you lose. 706 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 3: What I'm saying is we're advancing now to the point 707 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:04,759 Speaker 3: where I've heard of medical schools that we're going to 708 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 3: go all digital with their anatomical studies. I'm thinking, this 709 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 3: is this is utter madness that you would do this, 710 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 3: because the tactile when you stick your hands into that world, 711 00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 3: the tactile nature of that you're learning through your fingertips. 712 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 3: I don't care how much AI there is or where 713 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 3: You'll never learn like this. You know, when you slip 714 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 3: on the surgical gloves and you're holding things and you 715 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 3: feel that weight, you feel the weight of a lung 716 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,720 Speaker 3: that has pneumonia, you know, and are you you hold 717 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 3: somebody's heart with cardiomeg or you've got a fatty liver 718 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 3: or cirrhosis and you feel those nodules, or you run 719 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 3: your hand over the plural surface of the lungs and 720 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 3: you've got the tiny blebs as a result of in 721 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 3: physima or whatever it is. There's something, there's something about 722 00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 3: that that translates to the brain, and it's going to 723 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 3: be laws. It's going to be lost. I think in 724 00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 3: this world that we're heading into with AI, I know. 725 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,840 Speaker 2: Really it really is a shame and it scares me 726 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 2: to think that these people are actually going to be 727 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,200 Speaker 2: responsible for people's lives, because it really is the only way. 728 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,520 Speaker 2: And I saw the transition when I was working in 729 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 2: surgical pathology because I was the lead PA and I 730 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 2: was in charge of training the residence, and one of 731 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 2: my biggest things was I wanted all of the residents 732 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 2: to do autopsy rotation first because I was like, they'll 733 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:32,600 Speaker 2: see how all the bodies are inside or all the 734 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 2: organs right inside, because it's just different than gross anatomy, 735 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 2: you know, It's just it's different when it's fresh. And 736 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 2: then because what happens was they would come into surgical 737 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 2: pathology and they would get something called a Whipple specimen, 738 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 2: which is a pancreas with the piece of the duodenum attached, 739 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 2: and they wouldn't even know how it's sat in the 740 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,320 Speaker 2: body because you just get this organ with a giant 741 00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:57,479 Speaker 2: tumor in it that's like plopped on a cutting board 742 00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 2: in front of you, and it's hard to make the 743 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 2: of how it's sat in the body, which way is antier, 744 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 2: which ways post here, things like that, So I definitely 745 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 2: think that that is something that all medical students should 746 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 2: be heavily involved in for sure. 747 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 5: This episode is brought to you by the gross Room. 748 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:21,960 Speaker 4: Guys. 749 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 2: We talk about so many different cases in the grossroom 750 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:28,399 Speaker 2: and have all different examples of things. So even if 751 00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 2: a specific story we're talking about on mother nos Death 752 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 2: isn't in the gross room, there's always a case in 753 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 2: there that involves one of these things, like Raby's for example. 754 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 2: I have a case of that in there, and you 755 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,280 Speaker 2: just can go on the search bar and search anything 756 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 2: that you're interested in and find a case that has 757 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 2: to do with it, and it's just really it's really awesome. 758 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 2: We have lots of posts with videos, photos, thousands of 759 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,880 Speaker 2: them on there, so you could really see anything that 760 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 2: you want to see and have me explain what's going 761 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 2: on in it. And the Grossroom's on sale right now, 762 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 2: and we don't put it on sale too often, and 763 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:02,719 Speaker 2: it's only twenty. 764 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 4: Dollars for a whole entire year of gross. 765 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 5: So you can visit the Grossroom dot com for more 766 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 5: info and to sign up, and the website will be 767 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 5: on sale until October sixteenth. 768 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 3: There's a reason it's grotesque again, as this is. There's 769 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 3: a reason that people would risk prison relative to grave robbing. 770 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,879 Speaker 3: You know, our predecessors understood the value of having as 771 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 3: fresh as specimens as they could. Great story. If somebody 772 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,840 Speaker 3: gets a chance to check this out, and I can't remember, 773 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 3: I can tell you where it happened, but this is 774 00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,880 Speaker 3: this would be right up your alley. There was a 775 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 3: case a few years ago that took place actually in Georgia, 776 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 3: and it was then the Medical College of Georgia, which 777 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,400 Speaker 3: is a pretty highly esteemed one of the oldest medical 778 00:45:54,440 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 3: colleges medical schools in the US, and there were this 779 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 3: is in the ante bellum South, and so there were 780 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:13,840 Speaker 3: these two freemen. These are African Americans that are not slaves, 781 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 3: that made their living from robbing graves for the medical school. Well, 782 00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 3: there are no there were no even crappy fluorescent lights 783 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 3: back then. You know, they did everything by whale lamps 784 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 3: and those sorts of things. Candles. These guys would be 785 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,879 Speaker 3: paid right to go out dig up the fresh dead, 786 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 3: bring them into medical students would pay them. Some people 787 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 3: think that it was actually some of the instructors that 788 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,960 Speaker 3: were paying these guys to rob the graves because it 789 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 3: was kind of a traditional thing that had gone on. 790 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 3: They'd have to do it in the dark of the 791 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,000 Speaker 3: night because it was illegal, you know, you were not 792 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,399 Speaker 3: It was considered to be very inappropriate to do those 793 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 3: back then. I think people are surprised at that. Anyway, 794 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:06,879 Speaker 3: after the students were through with bodies and after they 795 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 3: had completely dissected them, they would take them and push 796 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,320 Speaker 3: them off into an aushwary that was underneath the buildings. 797 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 3: So they're doing renovations on this building in the late 798 00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 3: eighties or early nineties, and there's there have been entire 799 00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:29,640 Speaker 3: papers written about this event. They found human remains, and 800 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 3: remains should be emphasized here for the plural nature of 801 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 3: that war, because they got into there and there were 802 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 3: co mingled sculptal remains that were just piled under there. 803 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:44,440 Speaker 4: And this was in Georgia. 804 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was Georgia Medical College. I urge anybody, please 805 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 3: don't believe what I'm saying, go and look it up. 806 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,719 Speaker 3: And I think I can't remember the lady's name. She's 807 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 3: pretty well known back then, pretty well known. Forensic anthropologists 808 00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 3: had to go in and try to try to make 809 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 3: sense of what was going on, because you know, we 810 00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 3: get will handle mass graves, particularly my friends that are overseas. 811 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 3: I've made the acquaintances aside. I just recently took a 812 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 3: trip to Great Britain and I made the acquaintance of 813 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,600 Speaker 3: a lave's forensic archaeologist and she's doing exhamations in Spain 814 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,359 Speaker 3: that are in uh part of the research they're doing 815 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 3: on Spanish civil wars. And they had mass killings back 816 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,480 Speaker 3: then with big open graves that were dumping bodies in 817 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,800 Speaker 3: and she's exhuming those remains right now. Some nightmare because 818 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 3: everything's stratified and commingled. They've belt they've it's in a graveyard, 819 00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:39,920 Speaker 3: so they had buried newer bodies on top of these bodies. 820 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,880 Speaker 3: So they have to remove those bodies and then go 821 00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,440 Speaker 3: down to substrata. So anyway, I'm sorry I digress, but 822 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 3: that story is fat. It was always fascinating to me 823 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 3: the links that people would go to because you know, 824 00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,760 Speaker 3: they understood that if they were going to be treating 825 00:48:53,840 --> 00:49:01,840 Speaker 3: people that they needed they they needed to be able 826 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 3: to understand form and function and all the clinical stuff 827 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 3: is great, you know where you're making diagnoses of the living, 828 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:14,720 Speaker 3: but if you don't understand our status as the dead first, 829 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,400 Speaker 3: it's it's a much more difficult proposition you had before 830 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,719 Speaker 3: you being a future clinician. 831 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,920 Speaker 2: I think, did you hear about this recent case where 832 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,320 Speaker 2: a surgeon took the wrong organ out of someone? 833 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,279 Speaker 3: It just no, I've heard, I've heard, I've heard of 834 00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,160 Speaker 3: other cases. I don't, uh, and I can't remember how 835 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 3: recently the most recent one. So no, i'd have to say, no. 836 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 2: Oh, this guy took out someone's liver instead of their spleen, 837 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,880 Speaker 2: didn't realize it at the time of surgery, send it 838 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 2: to surgical pathology, labeled spleen, and in surgical pathology they 839 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,439 Speaker 2: were like, it's his liver and that's why he's dead. 840 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 2: How could it It's so outrageous. 841 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 3: How could a surgeon do that? 842 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,479 Speaker 2: I mean he said it migrated to the other side 843 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 2: of the body. And I don't know, I just I 844 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 2: can't It happened in Florida. It was a couple of 845 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,920 Speaker 2: months ago. I'll send you. 846 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,600 Speaker 3: Is this a potential Florida man story? I don't know, 847 00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:18,760 Speaker 3: that's what that's what this sounds like. Everything's different in Florida. Wow, 848 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 3: how much more so? I thought? I really thought you 849 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 3: were going to say he took out the wrong kidney. No, 850 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,320 Speaker 3: you know, that's fly. I mean, I can see that happening, 851 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 3: you know, but the liver and it was supposed to 852 00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 3: be a splentactomy. Yes, that's outrageous. Absolutely it is. 853 00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 2: And the fact that he's trying to say, oh, it migrated, 854 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,440 Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, of course if you have hippatomegla 855 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,920 Speaker 2: or splinting OMEGLEI, they get bigger and they move to 856 00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 2: the site, but the attachment points are on completely opposite sides. 857 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 4: Of the body. 858 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't understand how one goes about doing. And 859 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 3: it was not just part of the liver, it was 860 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:51,480 Speaker 3: the entire liver. 861 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:52,359 Speaker 4: The entire liver. 862 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 3: Holy, I beg you please if you have any links 863 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,919 Speaker 3: relative to that. I had got to read this. Oh yeah, 864 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,480 Speaker 3: I wrote up there, and I have to know the 865 00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:05,240 Speaker 3: status of this man. I would assume that the patient is, yeah. 866 00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,400 Speaker 4: He's daddy bled out. 867 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,520 Speaker 3: And that he did. And the fact that you would 868 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,600 Speaker 3: if you're hang on, I'm trying to do the calculus here. 869 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 3: If you're so, if you're going to remove a liver there, 870 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,000 Speaker 3: unless you're doing it for harvestation and the person is, 871 00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,359 Speaker 3: you know, essentially brain dead, there should be another liver 872 00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,920 Speaker 3: standing by that you're going to uplook this person in 873 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,799 Speaker 3: the fact, and how I don't see how things could 874 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 3: have gone that bad? Amazing. Yeah, I've got to read this. 875 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:40,839 Speaker 3: I can't wait for. 876 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:43,440 Speaker 2: I just don't understand, like, when you remove the spleen, 877 00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,600 Speaker 2: you're only cutting it off of a spleen islanic artery 878 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,600 Speaker 2: in vain, right, It's just like a little clippy. You 879 00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,040 Speaker 2: could kind of take it out with your hand, honestly. 880 00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:52,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't. You can blunt lead us. 881 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:53,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, Like a. 882 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,200 Speaker 2: Liver is multiple attachments portal system. 883 00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:04,040 Speaker 3: It is. And I spent many hours, particularly with rather 884 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:10,960 Speaker 3: rotund alcoholics that had cirrhosis fatty liver and would have 885 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:18,759 Speaker 3: these livers that were just absolutely gigantic probably just trying 886 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,840 Speaker 3: to remember the largest liver I've ever taken out. Numbers 887 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,600 Speaker 3: don't come to mind right now, but it was like 888 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,839 Speaker 3: the size of the Volkswagen Bus, you know. I mean, 889 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 3: it was so big. But I spent a lot of 890 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 3: time wrestling with the dead over their livers because it's 891 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,399 Speaker 3: oddly positioned, and as you said, there are multiple attachments 892 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,560 Speaker 3: that are there that have to be cut through. It's 893 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,319 Speaker 3: a very robust organ, and so when you get in 894 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,720 Speaker 3: there and you're trying to trim this out and dissect 895 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 3: it out so that you can get it up onto 896 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:55,000 Speaker 3: the board intact without it being ripped, which is something 897 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 3: I always tried to avoid doing, try to keep the 898 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 3: capsule intact. It's a daunting task many times, particularly if 899 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:06,160 Speaker 3: you're tired and you've done a lot of cases and 900 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 3: this is, you know, the fifth or the sixth one 901 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:10,719 Speaker 3: that you get to. I always think that it's better 902 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 3: to start off with the largest person first, if possible. 903 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 3: Everything else seems everything seems a bit easier after that. 904 00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:26,080 Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, liver is, by far from me, probably 905 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 3: the most difficult organ to get out of the body. 906 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:32,200 Speaker 3: I have a long It took me a long time also, 907 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,960 Speaker 3: I would always do it by feel removal of the adrenals. 908 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,200 Speaker 3: That took a while to locate them, but I got 909 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,120 Speaker 3: I got pretty good at it towards the end where 910 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,880 Speaker 3: I could do I didn't have to like actualize it. 911 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,719 Speaker 3: I could just feel and trim it out, put it 912 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:53,480 Speaker 3: on the board. Then next go to the kidney, the 913 00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 3: adjacent kidney, so forth and so on. I've been in 914 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:03,640 Speaker 3: environments before where you know, we were doing on block 915 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:06,640 Speaker 3: dissections where you know, we refer to it as tongue 916 00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,680 Speaker 3: to nuts, you know in the you know, forgive me again, 917 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,239 Speaker 3: that's very crass, but you know, starting dissecting out the 918 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,719 Speaker 3: tongue and just shaving right down the spinal column all 919 00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:20,920 Speaker 3: the way down, cut away the diaphragm, all the way 920 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,439 Speaker 3: down to the rectum, remove it. Males, you know, you're 921 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 3: you're taking out the testicles. And I think probably the 922 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:34,479 Speaker 3: quickest one of those I've ever done was right about 923 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:35,120 Speaker 3: two minutes. 924 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,720 Speaker 2: Oh. I believe it's for the person dissecting the organs 925 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:40,960 Speaker 2: off of that block. 926 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 4: That you hand them with. 927 00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:45,320 Speaker 3: Some doctors that you work with preferred to be on block, 928 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:50,480 Speaker 3: and generally that's not it's not desirable and forensics generally 929 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,680 Speaker 3: it's an organ by organ dissection. The Roguetansky thing is 930 00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,880 Speaker 3: like I always felt like it was more clinical. There 931 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 3: are certain circumstances where they do want it, and lots 932 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 3: of times it has to do with not gunshot wounds, 933 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 3: but accidents, particularly impacts, posterior impacts, blunt for strawm of 934 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,239 Speaker 3: the rear. They want to see. They want to see 935 00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,440 Speaker 3: little focal areas of hemorrhage in their natural anatomical orientation 936 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,279 Speaker 3: and stuff that that cannot appreciate. If you're doing an 937 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,719 Speaker 3: organ by organ, they won't see it posterially. So you know, 938 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:29,440 Speaker 3: that was that was daunting. I think probably the most 939 00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 3: daunting thing that I ever had to do in the 940 00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:34,839 Speaker 3: more is try to remove you know, to take out 941 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,400 Speaker 3: the brain and spinal cord intact. 942 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,600 Speaker 4: Oh I know from the back. 943 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:44,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's hours and hours and hours tedious, 944 00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 3: the most tedious cases by farther that we would do. 945 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:49,880 Speaker 3: And you have to do these on a regular basis 946 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,919 Speaker 3: or in custody desks, and a lot of people don't 947 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,880 Speaker 3: realize this, but even if it's someone that dies in 948 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,160 Speaker 3: police custody of a heart attack, you're going to get 949 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,440 Speaker 3: what we used for too, is a prison autopsy, and 950 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 3: a prison autopsy is first off, there's no area of 951 00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 3: the body that is not touched by scalpel blade. So like, 952 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:22,320 Speaker 3: for instance, the back is completely dissected out, completely opened, 953 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:27,680 Speaker 3: you take photographs exterior. Then after you open the back, 954 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,759 Speaker 3: you're taking pictures, detailed pictures of all the musculature all 955 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,200 Speaker 3: the way up to the occyput. You know, we would 956 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:41,239 Speaker 3: just kind of peel back this way. And then the 957 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 3: reason is we'd cut down the buttocks, down the poster, 958 00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,840 Speaker 3: your legs, open those up, the calves, the soles of 959 00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 3: the feet, if you can imagine this, and people say, 960 00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,520 Speaker 3: my god, this is horrible. Why would you do that, Well, 961 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:56,920 Speaker 3: they're in custody, and so one of the things that 962 00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:01,160 Speaker 3: you have to do with in custody deaths is you're 963 00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 3: checking for any focal areas of hemorrhage where they could 964 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,080 Speaker 3: have been abused. And again it goes back to the adage, 965 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:09,279 Speaker 3: if you don't get it right, then you'll never get it. 966 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,560 Speaker 3: And so we would do palms of the hands, backs 967 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 3: of the hands, up and down the arms. Funeral homes 968 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,920 Speaker 3: hated it because it was an extra level they had 969 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 3: to go to if they if if the body was 970 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:25,200 Speaker 3: going to be viewable. A lot of hats involved wearing 971 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,640 Speaker 3: hats and you know, trying to make the body presentable 972 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:33,680 Speaker 3: after we did it. But that standard I've done. I've 973 00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,320 Speaker 3: assisted in autopsies of three execution victims. I did one 974 00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,960 Speaker 3: of the last electric electrocutions in Georgia I think when 975 00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,640 Speaker 3: I was assigned to the GBI, and two of the 976 00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,520 Speaker 3: early lethal injection cases. And here's an interesting little bit 977 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,320 Speaker 3: of trivia because a lot of people will look at 978 00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,840 Speaker 3: that and they'll say, well, why do you do an 979 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:58,760 Speaker 3: autopsy on that? Well, it's a homicide, and people, that's 980 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,600 Speaker 3: not a homicide. What else would you call it? There's 981 00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 3: only five manners of death. It's literally the death of 982 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:09,160 Speaker 3: someone but the hand of another. And so the corner 983 00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 3: can make the decision as to whether or not they 984 00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:16,600 Speaker 3: want an autopsy. But is the public is going to 985 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,080 Speaker 3: be best served if all of these autopsies are done 986 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:24,560 Speaker 3: to completion where they are as thorough as they possibly 987 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 3: can be. And isn't that interesting, you know, because you've 988 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,520 Speaker 3: got somebody who's been sitting on death row. Everything they 989 00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:34,520 Speaker 3: do is monitored, everything they do is watched. You have 990 00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,360 Speaker 3: detailed information about their medical history, if anything they're suffering from. 991 00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 3: But yet the state still requires that there'll be an 992 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:51,200 Speaker 3: autopsy performed. I had a chance for one to go 993 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 3: and observe the execution. But you know, I got to. 994 00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,240 Speaker 4: Tell you, man, you draw the line there. 995 00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:01,360 Speaker 3: Well, my brain is so loaded with from all of 996 00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:06,200 Speaker 3: those years of dealing with death, and I never as 997 00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:11,520 Speaker 3: a practitioner working in two really big areas, you never 998 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:13,960 Speaker 3: get to say no to death very often. If you're 999 00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,680 Speaker 3: on duty, you have to do its bidding, you know, 1000 00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 3: because death never stops that. There were actually two invitations 1001 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,200 Speaker 3: I had because the state medical Examiner would be present 1002 00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,000 Speaker 3: for the execution. It's something I just didn't want to 1003 00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,680 Speaker 3: load my brain up with. I didn't I didn't need 1004 00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,200 Speaker 3: to go in there and bear witness to it and 1005 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:36,480 Speaker 3: be around. You know, you're around enough sadness. As a 1006 00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:40,360 Speaker 3: medical legal death investigator, I spent a lot of time. 1007 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 3: I think I've done close to two thousand in person 1008 00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,920 Speaker 3: death notifications over the course of my career, and it's 1009 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:51,560 Speaker 3: soul crushing. The last one was just as bad as 1010 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,080 Speaker 3: the first one that I did when I think I 1011 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:59,439 Speaker 3: was twenty one years old. Never got easier, and so 1012 00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,720 Speaker 3: he you look at something like that, and and a 1013 01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 3: lot of people out there would say, how would give 1014 01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:07,280 Speaker 3: youthing to be able to go see an execution? Be 1015 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:10,240 Speaker 3: very careful what you wish for. There's just certain things 1016 01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:14,360 Speaker 3: that there's enough horror and ugliness in this world that 1017 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,360 Speaker 3: you don't want to have to subject yourself to that 1018 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 3: one other thing. So it's just something I chose never 1019 01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 3: to do. Now was there for the examination, And I 1020 01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 3: think clinically you can kind of switch that, switch that off, 1021 01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 3: but you almost feel like if you're there watching it, 1022 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:30,920 Speaker 3: you almost feel like you're a party to it exactly, 1023 01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,919 Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. Yeah, And it's just kind 1024 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,240 Speaker 3: of a you know, and I know a lot of 1025 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:39,160 Speaker 3: people get bloodlust going on, you know, they see these 1026 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 3: horrible cases in the news, and I'm chief among sinners 1027 01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,280 Speaker 3: because I cover them. And you say, well, if that 1028 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,200 Speaker 3: was my relative, I'd throw the switch, or I push 1029 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:50,080 Speaker 3: the needle or do this and do that, and that's 1030 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:55,560 Speaker 3: all fine and good, But you know it wasn't my relative. 1031 01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:57,880 Speaker 3: You know, I don't, you know, I don't. I'm not 1032 01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:03,480 Speaker 3: invested in this. I'm not invested in this emotionally. I 1033 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,520 Speaker 3: don't want to be invested in emotionally. I'm not invested 1034 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:11,600 Speaker 3: in it clinically to watch the process because I know 1035 01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,800 Speaker 3: how it ends. I'll be glad to be there to 1036 01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,320 Speaker 3: document it, even though it's rather tedious. But it's one 1037 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,360 Speaker 3: of those moments in Tom you know that I'm glad 1038 01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,520 Speaker 3: it's it's one of those turns in the road that 1039 01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,280 Speaker 3: I'm glad that you don't regret. Yeah, I didn't. 1040 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,480 Speaker 2: I didn't go to I'm curious about this actually, So 1041 01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,600 Speaker 2: do you do document Obviously you do normal documentation of autopsy, 1042 01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:37,520 Speaker 2: but do they use that information for anything? For example, 1043 01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,000 Speaker 2: I'm of the of the mindset that a shooting squad 1044 01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,800 Speaker 2: is probably the most humane way to kill a person. 1045 01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,720 Speaker 3: Is Yeah, I thought that too. Yeah. 1046 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,960 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So, like when they see this pulmonary of demon 1047 01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:54,960 Speaker 2: seeing signs that a person was developing reaction to whatever 1048 01:01:55,160 --> 01:01:57,640 Speaker 2: lethal injection they were given, do they take that into 1049 01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:58,960 Speaker 2: consideration as far. 1050 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 3: As I would hope so. And I'm glad you mentioned 1051 01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:06,480 Speaker 3: that because I did an episode. We can get it 1052 01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:09,200 Speaker 3: wrong a couple I'll just say a couple of months back, 1053 01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:12,960 Speaker 3: we had I live here in Alabama. My university, Jacksonville 1054 01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,440 Speaker 3: State University, is here in Alabama. Love this place. The 1055 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,600 Speaker 3: whole population of the state is smaller than the entire 1056 01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:25,760 Speaker 3: population of Atlanta, so we're sparsely populated here. I love. 1057 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:30,800 Speaker 3: It is beautiful. I'm up in the Appalachian Mountains. Y'all 1058 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:31,959 Speaker 3: didn't hear that. Don't come here. 1059 01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:32,840 Speaker 5: I know. 1060 01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:34,880 Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm going to go buy a house there 1061 01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:35,440 Speaker 4: right now. 1062 01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:42,680 Speaker 3: It's so peaceful. But anyway, our state did the first 1063 01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 3: nitrogen execution a couple of months ago, and it had 1064 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 3: only been used in veterinary medicine for youth in Asia. 1065 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,560 Speaker 3: The only animal that I could find that it had 1066 01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:04,520 Speaker 3: been a six eccess with had were hogs. They did 1067 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:13,680 Speaker 3: it with dogs, and dogs presented with market anxiety as 1068 01:03:13,720 --> 01:03:15,880 Speaker 3: a result of And I think that a lot of 1069 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:17,920 Speaker 3: it had to do with being masked up because if 1070 01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,400 Speaker 3: you the contraption that they use, and I urge anybody 1071 01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:23,240 Speaker 3: to go look it's just like I tell my students, 1072 01:03:23,280 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 3: don't believe anything I say. To look it up for yourself. 1073 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,200 Speaker 3: That's generally how you're going to learn. But the mask 1074 01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:33,080 Speaker 3: is that they utilize is like, well, your your husband, 1075 01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,720 Speaker 3: who by the way, is an absolute hero. You is firefighters, 1076 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:40,919 Speaker 3: So they have to use those all encompassing face mask right, 1077 01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,000 Speaker 3: you know where they can take oxygen directly in it 1078 01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,280 Speaker 3: protects their face. That's the type of masks they're using 1079 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 3: on this dude. And and he's he is morbidly obese. 1080 01:03:51,680 --> 01:04:00,320 Speaker 3: As a matter of fact, they they had attempted it 1081 01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,120 Speaker 3: was either one or two lethal injections on him already. 1082 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,640 Speaker 3: They couldn't hit a vein because he was so obese, 1083 01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:16,320 Speaker 3: and it didn't it didn't work well. It was allegedly 1084 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,320 Speaker 3: a struggle because it's it's an oxygen I don't know 1085 01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,440 Speaker 3: if you can call it like an oxygen deprivant, but 1086 01:04:23,560 --> 01:04:27,520 Speaker 3: it's an oxygen replacement. It's not like halon with halon 1087 01:04:27,680 --> 01:04:30,680 Speaker 3: fire extinguishers, where it's you know, it's sucking all the 1088 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,200 Speaker 3: oxygen out of the air and fire dies. It doesn't 1089 01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 3: quite work like that, but it's oxygen replacement and you're 1090 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:43,200 Speaker 3: replacement with nitrogen. And there have been a few, and 1091 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:46,000 Speaker 3: I've worked these cases. If people in the audience are 1092 01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:50,440 Speaker 3: not familiar with what are referred to as final exit cases, 1093 01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,920 Speaker 3: there's a book that was written many years ago called 1094 01:04:55,000 --> 01:05:00,760 Speaker 3: Final Exit by a guy named Derek Humphrey. Not Freeze, 1095 01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:05,720 Speaker 3: but Humphrey. I think that's correct, and he had started 1096 01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 3: out years ago. His wife had really aggressive bone cancer 1097 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:13,160 Speaker 3: and she was as, you know, that disease is really insidious, 1098 01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:17,520 Speaker 3: and she was just you know, there's no position she 1099 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,760 Speaker 3: could get in and not be miserable. And there's not 1100 01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:24,120 Speaker 3: enough drugs you can give someone to make them comfortable. 1101 01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:27,240 Speaker 3: It's a horrible way to dine. They decided a mutual 1102 01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:31,160 Speaker 3: agreement that he would make tea for her. He would 1103 01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,760 Speaker 3: make tea for her, and he used I think some 1104 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,560 Speaker 3: kind of barbituate combination. I can't remember what it was, 1105 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:41,120 Speaker 3: and she died and he witnessed it well. He went 1106 01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:42,840 Speaker 3: on from there and wrote a book about it called 1107 01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:46,360 Speaker 3: Final Exit. In Final Exit, he goes through in detailed 1108 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,480 Speaker 3: information describing how you can go about peacefully and they 1109 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,720 Speaker 3: don't call it suicide. They call it self deliverance. So 1110 01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,840 Speaker 3: the reason I tell you that story is that going 1111 01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,720 Speaker 3: back to the execution with nitrogen, one of the things 1112 01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,960 Speaker 3: that they would recommend, and for a while on YouTube 1113 01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,680 Speaker 3: there was actually there was a video that was up 1114 01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:15,400 Speaker 3: of him demonstrating this, utilizing a kid's helium tank like 1115 01:06:15,440 --> 01:06:18,440 Speaker 3: he would rent to blow up helium points and how 1116 01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,240 Speaker 3: to change the hardware out on it. Uh, you know, 1117 01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:27,560 Speaker 3: plastic back putting, using plastic bags. It was. It was horrible, 1118 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:31,800 Speaker 3: I mean just absolutely horrible. And uh, this method of 1119 01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:35,400 Speaker 3: self deliverance, you would take on board drugs and then 1120 01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:38,760 Speaker 3: you know, use the gas as an adjunct and either 1121 01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 3: way it's going to bring about your peaceful death. I 1122 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,640 Speaker 3: worked a number of those over the years, and I 1123 01:06:45,680 --> 01:06:51,760 Speaker 3: didn't see I didn't see struggling with those like was 1124 01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,160 Speaker 3: described relative to the nitrogen execution. However, he was not 1125 01:06:56,240 --> 01:07:00,080 Speaker 3: given meds prior to it either. So he's placed in 1126 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,520 Speaker 3: this so you know that he's going to have elevated pulse, 1127 01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:05,680 Speaker 3: blood pressure, is probably gonna be up through the roof, 1128 01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,080 Speaker 3: terrible anxiety, crushing chest pain, probably already as a result 1129 01:07:10,120 --> 01:07:12,600 Speaker 3: of that shallow breathing. And then you add the nitrogen 1130 01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,760 Speaker 3: into it. And I'm not saying that the guy didn't 1131 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,200 Speaker 3: deserve to die, you know, it's capital punishments. Not my thing. 1132 01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:23,760 Speaker 3: But I have objections based on, you know, my Catholic beliefs. 1133 01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:30,040 Speaker 3: But I the state says he has to die, and 1134 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:32,760 Speaker 3: this is the methodology. The problem is is that with 1135 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:38,320 Speaker 3: this particular methodology, I didn't see any evidence that it 1136 01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:42,280 Speaker 3: had been tested other than on hogs, and that's a 1137 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,040 Speaker 3: big leap to go free, to go from hogs to 1138 01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:50,560 Speaker 3: humans at that point in Tom and my understanding is 1139 01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,560 Speaker 3: I think that within the last month they've just done 1140 01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 3: another one with nitrogen, and I haven't heard the outcomes 1141 01:07:57,760 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 3: on it yet. 1142 01:07:58,640 --> 01:07:59,840 Speaker 4: So interesting. 1143 01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,560 Speaker 2: We just talked about this on the podcast a few 1144 01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:06,680 Speaker 2: weeks ago, that there's these new nitrogen pods for countries 1145 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,400 Speaker 2: that have it. The legal physician assistant so as I 1146 01:08:10,520 --> 01:08:13,680 Speaker 2: although I don't even think it's physician assistant. The person 1147 01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,880 Speaker 2: goes in and they push the button themselves and yeah, 1148 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,479 Speaker 2: it's it sounds like a horrible death, like asphyxiate to death. 1149 01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:22,960 Speaker 2: Sounds terrible to me. 1150 01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:26,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, these pods look like something out of the television 1151 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,360 Speaker 3: series Westworld or something. You know. It's you know, kind 1152 01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:31,360 Speaker 3: of the sleep. It looks like a sleeping pod like 1153 01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,120 Speaker 3: you would see on some John Carpenter, you know, Alien 1154 01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:37,280 Speaker 3: movie where he lay down they put you into deep sleep. Right. 1155 01:08:38,120 --> 01:08:40,640 Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, this is about as deep as it can go. 1156 01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,559 Speaker 3: I think that the case, I think it was two 1157 01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:49,040 Speaker 3: or three weeks ago this up in the I've never 1158 01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:52,840 Speaker 3: been to Switzerland, always wanted to go, but the northernmost 1159 01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,120 Speaker 3: portion of Switzerland. There's like this little peninsula that kind 1160 01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:01,200 Speaker 3: of juts out into northern France and over in Germany. Anyway. 1161 01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:04,519 Speaker 3: That's this thing was out in the woods. They had 1162 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,400 Speaker 3: set this pod up and this person goes out there 1163 01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,000 Speaker 3: and I don't even know what their diagnosis was there. 1164 01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,120 Speaker 3: I guess they had a thermal diagnoses. I don't even 1165 01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:17,680 Speaker 3: know if that's required anymore. But they went in and 1166 01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,080 Speaker 3: took their life, ended their life in this thing, and 1167 01:09:20,120 --> 01:09:23,160 Speaker 3: the authorities were investigating it. I think there was The 1168 01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,920 Speaker 3: thing was the way the Swiss had described I think 1169 01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,160 Speaker 3: they said it was, this is so crazy. It was 1170 01:09:29,200 --> 01:09:33,519 Speaker 3: not approved. It was it was not government approved, so 1171 01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,519 Speaker 3: it didn't have the stamp on it or whatever, and 1172 01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:36,400 Speaker 3: they got all that. 1173 01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:40,560 Speaker 2: Imagine if you got called to that scene some death investigator, 1174 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:41,439 Speaker 2: how to go, Yeah, no. 1175 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,880 Speaker 3: I don't know, you know. I mean, it's not like 1176 01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,840 Speaker 3: with final exit cases, which we and it wasn't just 1177 01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:51,000 Speaker 3: me and it's not just my too often these cases, 1178 01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:53,479 Speaker 3: trust me, they were everywhere all over the country. There 1179 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 3: was like a it was almost like a fad, you know, 1180 01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,320 Speaker 3: that that took hold for a period of time and 1181 01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:01,600 Speaker 3: it kind of ran parallel to the same time that 1182 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:05,720 Speaker 3: could work in Yeah, was doing his thing. And interestingly, 1183 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:12,479 Speaker 3: interestingly enough, the book itself this call Final Exit, but 1184 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,519 Speaker 3: it was published by the Hemlock Society, which, of course 1185 01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:19,400 Speaker 3: Hemlock is the tea that was a Socrates drink where 1186 01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,200 Speaker 3: he was forced to take his own life, and is 1187 01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:26,800 Speaker 3: published by the Hemlock Society, which they are a society. 1188 01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:28,960 Speaker 3: I guess they're still in existence. I have no idea 1189 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:36,479 Speaker 3: that was dedicated to this idea of self deliverance. So, yeah, 1190 01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:39,160 Speaker 3: the world of medical legal death investigation, you can get 1191 01:10:39,200 --> 01:10:43,200 Speaker 3: off into all of these interesting areas that and be 1192 01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:47,240 Speaker 3: exposed to things that most even cops never see, you know, 1193 01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:51,400 Speaker 3: because we're doing investigations that. Yeah, some of them run parallel. 1194 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:53,880 Speaker 3: But cops are really only interested in homicides. That's the 1195 01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:58,160 Speaker 3: only thing that's prosecutable, so everything else, and we work 1196 01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:01,880 Speaker 3: homicides obviously we have to. We're interested in suicides and 1197 01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,320 Speaker 3: accidents and natural deaths, which I love working because it's 1198 01:11:06,360 --> 01:11:09,960 Speaker 3: so intellectually stimulating. I'd always learn something about digging into 1199 01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:14,400 Speaker 3: medical records or certainly undetermined us you know that are 1200 01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:16,559 Speaker 3: out there where you just have no raw or reason 1201 01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,840 Speaker 3: why this person died and so that would pop up 1202 01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:19,479 Speaker 3: on your radar. 1203 01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why we started this podcast because 1204 01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,400 Speaker 2: I feel like there's this heavy there's this heavy field 1205 01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:31,200 Speaker 2: of true crime podcasts, and there's this whole other world 1206 01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:35,280 Speaker 2: of accidents and suicides and just other things surrounded around 1207 01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,719 Speaker 2: death that people don't really talk about that are actually 1208 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:41,760 Speaker 2: I mean, accidents and natural death are more common than 1209 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:44,719 Speaker 2: homicides for sure, and most people could relate to those 1210 01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,719 Speaker 2: more if you think about it, yeah. 1211 01:11:47,560 --> 01:11:52,360 Speaker 3: They can. And I'd say less than a lot of 1212 01:11:52,360 --> 01:12:00,920 Speaker 3: this is going to be geographically dependent, but probably right 1213 01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:03,240 Speaker 3: at about one percent of all of the desks the 1214 01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:09,360 Speaker 3: corners of medical examiners investigator homicides. Uh, most locations, suicides 1215 01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:13,519 Speaker 3: outpaced homicides two or three to one. So you spend 1216 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:17,040 Speaker 3: a lot more time working suicides than you ever do homicides. 1217 01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:19,040 Speaker 3: And there's enough home. You know, if you watch the news, 1218 01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:22,720 Speaker 3: you think that there's people walking around with machetes, you know, 1219 01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:25,639 Speaker 3: cutting people's heads off all over the place, And yeah, 1220 01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:28,080 Speaker 3: there are really violent crimes that are out there, but 1221 01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:30,799 Speaker 3: you're seeing what the media chooses for you to see. 1222 01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:34,200 Speaker 3: You know, it's it's these really over and there's a 1223 01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:36,479 Speaker 3: lot of homicides that never make it through the news cycle. 1224 01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:38,640 Speaker 3: That's like one of my big problems with like the 1225 01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:39,839 Speaker 3: jan Benet case. 1226 01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:45,000 Speaker 2: That was driving me not storing COVID with the ticker 1227 01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:47,800 Speaker 2: that was on the news, because I'm just like, come on, 1228 01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,919 Speaker 2: like we had so many people die at the hospital 1229 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:52,640 Speaker 2: every day, you just don't even think about it, you 1230 01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:54,519 Speaker 2: know what I mean, you don't. 1231 01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:57,680 Speaker 3: And that's the sad thing about it, and that, you know, 1232 01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:02,600 Speaker 3: going to those cases inarticular, I still waiting for a 1233 01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,200 Speaker 3: lot of the data, the post wartem data. My suspicion 1234 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:08,320 Speaker 3: is that probably there were not a lot of those 1235 01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:13,439 Speaker 3: cases that were autopsied, and I'd really like to know. 1236 01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:17,719 Speaker 3: I'd like to see that data relative to those cases 1237 01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,439 Speaker 3: because it's certainly a unique time in human history, and 1238 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,160 Speaker 3: I'm hoping that from the theology standpoint, it has been 1239 01:13:24,280 --> 01:13:28,360 Speaker 3: very well documented. But you know, there are a lot 1240 01:13:28,400 --> 01:13:32,080 Speaker 3: of things that never make it into the news, and 1241 01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:34,840 Speaker 3: one of the biggest examples, I think is Jean Benet. 1242 01:13:35,280 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 3: She fit a certain demographic. There's been over I don't know, 1243 01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:42,160 Speaker 3: I'm speaking out of school now, but at one time 1244 01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:44,120 Speaker 3: there were like twenty six books that have been written 1245 01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:46,439 Speaker 3: about the case. I'm sure there's probably more by now, 1246 01:13:46,800 --> 01:13:48,960 Speaker 3: not to mention any number of treatises that are out 1247 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:54,880 Speaker 3: there floating around, but you know, I worked. I worked 1248 01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:58,680 Speaker 3: a lot of cases involving little girls that died and 1249 01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:03,439 Speaker 3: they never made it through two news cycles and those 1250 01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:08,360 Speaker 3: cases are unsolved. So it's all. You know, the media 1251 01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:12,599 Speaker 3: sets the table for what we're going to be exposed 1252 01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:17,920 Speaker 3: to and what we hear about that. Going back to 1253 01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:20,880 Speaker 3: true crime, that's one of the interesting things that we 1254 01:14:20,960 --> 01:14:26,840 Speaker 3: do now because we're unfettered I think by standard newspapers 1255 01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:33,160 Speaker 3: and certainly the nightly national news. I find cases for 1256 01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:35,719 Speaker 3: body bags, which I try to stick within the lane, 1257 01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:38,800 Speaker 3: you know, my lanes. I don't get off into relationship stuff. 1258 01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:41,439 Speaker 3: I'm not putting on makeup while I'm telling ghastly stories 1259 01:14:41,479 --> 01:14:44,519 Speaker 3: and all that sort of stuff. I'm not sitting around 1260 01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,040 Speaker 3: smoking cigars and drinking whiskey while I'm talking about it, 1261 01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,559 Speaker 3: though I do like a nice whiskey and a cigar. 1262 01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:51,760 Speaker 4: I was like, you probably could get away with that. 1263 01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:56,840 Speaker 3: I might could, But you know, I like to talk 1264 01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:04,160 Speaker 3: about those cases where my friends, I don't like to 1265 01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:10,080 Speaker 3: call them fans. I like friends because I view them 1266 01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:13,439 Speaker 3: as students too, because you know, I've been very blessed. 1267 01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:16,840 Speaker 3: I've got a great education. I got it all in 1268 01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:18,960 Speaker 3: my own hand. I mean, I didn't have anybody, but 1269 01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:20,400 Speaker 3: I do have an education. There are a lot of 1270 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:22,479 Speaker 3: people that are sitting at home right now and they 1271 01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,639 Speaker 3: watch true crime television. They don't have same opportunities I've had. 1272 01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:29,680 Speaker 3: They haven't spent time in the morgue. They've never been 1273 01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:32,560 Speaker 3: to a death scene. They've never been around some of 1274 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:34,720 Speaker 3: the brilliant people that I've been exposed to over the 1275 01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,639 Speaker 3: course of my career, and they never will because their 1276 01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,519 Speaker 3: pastor not going to cross. They're people that keep everything 1277 01:15:39,600 --> 01:15:42,680 Speaker 3: running and do the hard work that you know that 1278 01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:45,120 Speaker 3: I don't have to do because I'm a college professor. 1279 01:15:45,280 --> 01:15:47,519 Speaker 3: I really don't have a real job. I'm a college professor. 1280 01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:50,240 Speaker 3: I used to have a real job, but you know, 1281 01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:55,479 Speaker 3: so it's my opportunity. I despise it when people speak 1282 01:15:55,520 --> 01:15:59,559 Speaker 3: down to folks. I really hate that, and I've had 1283 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:01,960 Speaker 3: that done to me. But you know, I had a 1284 01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,120 Speaker 3: few really kind people mentors along the way that were 1285 01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:10,719 Speaker 3: forensic pathologists that didn't treat me like I was there, 1286 01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:15,600 Speaker 3: you know, their servant, like a deanery. They treated me 1287 01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,080 Speaker 3: as though I were their student, and they wanted to 1288 01:16:18,120 --> 01:16:20,000 Speaker 3: invest in me. And so I try to pass that 1289 01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,679 Speaker 3: along to the general public and try to take these 1290 01:16:23,240 --> 01:16:27,800 Speaker 3: you know, pretty high end complex scientific constructs and try 1291 01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:29,880 Speaker 3: to break it down so that they understand it a 1292 01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,880 Speaker 3: little bit better. And and still, you know, we have 1293 01:16:32,960 --> 01:16:35,800 Speaker 3: a good tale along with it, and they come away 1294 01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,120 Speaker 3: understanding some of the stuff that can be very confusing 1295 01:16:39,160 --> 01:16:40,680 Speaker 3: in the news, you know, if you just kind of 1296 01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,200 Speaker 3: slip over the top of it, just kind of, you know, 1297 01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:48,760 Speaker 3: pay pay a passing glance to Perhaps these people have 1298 01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:51,439 Speaker 3: never been in an autopsy suite. Most of them never have. 1299 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:54,360 Speaker 3: They don't know what the sounds and the smells are, 1300 01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:56,479 Speaker 3: like what it sounds like when you drop a scalpel 1301 01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:59,479 Speaker 3: on a tile floor and it rings off the cabinets 1302 01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,240 Speaker 3: and off the thing will steal fixtures. They don't know 1303 01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:04,320 Speaker 3: what that's like in there. I do. That sounds so 1304 01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:06,560 Speaker 3: resonates in my ear. They don't know what it's like 1305 01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:09,040 Speaker 3: to have flies coming off of a body and lighting 1306 01:17:09,080 --> 01:17:12,880 Speaker 3: on you. They don't know what screams of families are like. 1307 01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,080 Speaker 3: I know what that's like, And so I try to 1308 01:17:15,120 --> 01:17:20,000 Speaker 3: do my best to translate that those experiences and also 1309 01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:24,400 Speaker 3: the joy of it of actually discovering something scientifically among 1310 01:17:24,479 --> 01:17:27,599 Speaker 3: all the sorrow and among all the horror, that there's 1311 01:17:27,640 --> 01:17:30,000 Speaker 3: something that you can you know, that you can take 1312 01:17:30,040 --> 01:17:33,559 Speaker 3: away from it that people will be invested in. And 1313 01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:36,760 Speaker 3: so I'm very grateful for the opportunity I've had, you know, 1314 01:17:36,840 --> 01:17:39,479 Speaker 3: to do body bags. It's just every time I do 1315 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:43,639 Speaker 3: an episode, I just I'm thrilled with it. It might 1316 01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,000 Speaker 3: not be everybody's cup of tea, but you know, I 1317 01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:50,439 Speaker 3: just I enjoy talking about the mechanisms of death and 1318 01:17:50,920 --> 01:17:53,320 Speaker 3: how you work a case like this in the field 1319 01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,960 Speaker 3: and then bringing it back to the morgue. And probably 1320 01:17:57,000 --> 01:17:59,639 Speaker 3: one of the coolest things that I've covered that will 1321 01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:04,200 Speaker 3: thrill one of my greatest joys is we did Julius 1322 01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:09,560 Speaker 3: Caesar's autopsy. It's the first documented autopsy that was ever conducted, 1323 01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:13,000 Speaker 3: and how his personal physician actually created a three D 1324 01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,880 Speaker 3: wax model to demonstrate to the crowd of what had 1325 01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:23,200 Speaker 3: been done to their king, to Caesar. And when he 1326 01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:25,920 Speaker 3: demonstrated this thing in the forum, which is where we 1327 01:18:25,920 --> 01:18:29,920 Speaker 3: get forensics from, he had it on a pedestal. They 1328 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:33,479 Speaker 3: describe it as an unknown mechanism that would cause this 1329 01:18:33,520 --> 01:18:36,519 Speaker 3: thing to turn, and so he could display it to 1330 01:18:36,600 --> 01:18:39,000 Speaker 3: the gathered crowd and they said that you could hear 1331 01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:42,759 Speaker 3: gasp go it from the crowd, and they wanted blood 1332 01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:45,479 Speaker 3: at this point, you know, they wanted blood. It had 1333 01:18:45,560 --> 01:18:48,840 Speaker 3: been a witnessed homicide with these senators. But when the 1334 01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:51,680 Speaker 3: people saw what had happened to and that was the 1335 01:18:51,720 --> 01:18:55,679 Speaker 3: first time not only was it the first documented autopsy, 1336 01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:59,960 Speaker 3: but what's old is new again. You know, we used 1337 01:19:00,080 --> 01:19:03,880 Speaker 3: really modeling now, you know, in court, and that was 1338 01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,519 Speaker 3: that was the first Tom And that was a couple 1339 01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,800 Speaker 3: of thousand years ago that he thought about that at 1340 01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:15,160 Speaker 3: that moment, Tom, that scientist, that physician, that clinician thought 1341 01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:17,240 Speaker 3: about this time, how am I going to convey this 1342 01:19:17,400 --> 01:19:20,879 Speaker 3: message to these people that don't have my understanding necessarily 1343 01:19:20,880 --> 01:19:23,800 Speaker 3: because they haven't spent their time treating patients. How are 1344 01:19:23,840 --> 01:19:27,080 Speaker 3: they going to appreciate this? I got it, he has 1345 01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:28,400 Speaker 3: this Eureka moment And. 1346 01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,840 Speaker 2: I get that from your when I listened to because 1347 01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,559 Speaker 2: I I you know, I trained interned at the Medical 1348 01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:37,960 Speaker 2: Examiner's office for a couple of months, but nowhere near 1349 01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:41,439 Speaker 2: have any kind of experience like you do. So and 1350 01:19:41,479 --> 01:19:43,559 Speaker 2: I don't really feel like I know it all that great. 1351 01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,280 Speaker 2: But when I listened to you on your podcast, or 1352 01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:48,040 Speaker 2: when I listened to you on Nancy Grace or any 1353 01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,920 Speaker 2: interviews you do, I'm always like, yeah, this guy is 1354 01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:54,200 Speaker 2: like explaining it to people on a normal level so 1355 01:19:54,240 --> 01:19:56,320 Speaker 2: they could understand it. I always like to say, it's 1356 01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:58,000 Speaker 2: like a third grade level. 1357 01:19:58,080 --> 01:19:58,280 Speaker 4: You know. 1358 01:19:58,960 --> 01:20:01,680 Speaker 3: Well, I get I Look, I don't have comments, you know, 1359 01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:03,960 Speaker 3: and I don't go around reading my reviews I did 1360 01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,759 Speaker 3: early on. I understand that's a that's a slippery stock 1361 01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,040 Speaker 3: to go. Doyn't do it. But you know, I have 1362 01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,240 Speaker 3: somebody say you don't have to. We're not stupid. You 1363 01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,479 Speaker 3: don't have to dumb it down for us as much. Well, 1364 01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:16,719 Speaker 3: I'm glad you're so brilliant. 1365 01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:18,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, some people don't. 1366 01:20:18,200 --> 01:20:20,720 Speaker 3: Have the same advantages that you that maybe you have 1367 01:20:20,800 --> 01:20:23,280 Speaker 3: in your life. If you don't like the way I 1368 01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:24,920 Speaker 3: do it, I'm sure you can go find somebody else 1369 01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,479 Speaker 3: that'll do it. But this is the way I'm going 1370 01:20:27,560 --> 01:20:31,640 Speaker 3: to do it because you know, look, you never know 1371 01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:35,280 Speaker 3: that little quaranteed that you plant in somebody's brain they 1372 01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:37,599 Speaker 3: may have for years. And this way I look at 1373 01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:40,040 Speaker 3: my students too. For years and years, they may have 1374 01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:43,599 Speaker 3: been told that they're no good at math, that science 1375 01:20:43,680 --> 01:20:47,759 Speaker 3: is hard, and yeah, math is difficult. Science is hard, 1376 01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:53,479 Speaker 3: but the reward is almost immeasurable, you know, the knowledge 1377 01:20:53,479 --> 01:20:55,280 Speaker 3: that you gain and if you can plant that little 1378 01:20:55,280 --> 01:20:58,000 Speaker 3: seed in their brain to help them understand, okay, forum 1379 01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:01,280 Speaker 3: in function. This is how this works. It's kind of 1380 01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:05,120 Speaker 3: like when you're you know, that's why our forensics program 1381 01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,599 Speaker 3: is an applied forensics program, because we're trying to train, teach, 1382 01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:11,479 Speaker 3: and train people. Academics hate it when you say the 1383 01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:16,680 Speaker 3: word train. When you're trying to educate people so that 1384 01:21:16,760 --> 01:21:21,080 Speaker 3: they can go out and be practitioners, that's the beauty 1385 01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:26,000 Speaker 3: of it. It's not theoretical forensic science. It's applied forensic science. 1386 01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,720 Speaker 3: And so those kids that I have walked through the door, 1387 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:30,920 Speaker 3: many of them have been told that they're no good 1388 01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,640 Speaker 3: in math, or that they're no good in science, and 1389 01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,080 Speaker 3: all it takes is just a little shove sometimes and 1390 01:21:36,120 --> 01:21:38,240 Speaker 3: a little encouragement. I mean, I think all of us 1391 01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,080 Speaker 3: can identify the first time that we ever walked into 1392 01:21:41,600 --> 01:21:45,599 Speaker 3: a chemistry class, perhaps in high school, and thought they 1393 01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,040 Speaker 3: might as well be speaking in ancient Greek. I don't 1394 01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:51,800 Speaker 3: understand this. Oh they let me put together models of molecules. 1395 01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:55,320 Speaker 3: How you know how revealing is that? But then you 1396 01:21:55,360 --> 01:22:00,599 Speaker 3: start to talk about quantitative findings relative to suspect a coke, 1397 01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:06,439 Speaker 3: suspected cocaine, you know that's recovered at crossing. Suddenly suddenly 1398 01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:09,720 Speaker 3: you understand the application of chemistry. Yeah, and you know 1399 01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:12,920 Speaker 3: the lights go go on at that point time. Sometimes 1400 01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:16,040 Speaker 3: that's all it takes. That's why the STEM stuff that 1401 01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:18,280 Speaker 3: they do in college is now is so very important, 1402 01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:19,439 Speaker 3: and in high school as well. 1403 01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,320 Speaker 2: I know exactly what you're saying. I mean, I went 1404 01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,080 Speaker 2: through this when when I was a teenager. You know, 1405 01:22:25,120 --> 01:22:27,000 Speaker 2: I got pregnant with my daughter and I dropped out 1406 01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:29,200 Speaker 2: of high school when I was sixteen, and it was 1407 01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,160 Speaker 2: I was kind of deemed like, oh, you're not really smart, 1408 01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,040 Speaker 2: you don't know anything, Like why don't you just kind 1409 01:22:34,040 --> 01:22:37,320 Speaker 2: of you know, and it just it's you just have 1410 01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:39,880 Speaker 2: to find somebody that talks to you and doesn't treat 1411 01:22:39,960 --> 01:22:43,479 Speaker 2: you like you're an idiot, to really find that light 1412 01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:45,439 Speaker 2: inside of you to help you know what I mean, 1413 01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:47,439 Speaker 2: to help get you on your way. And I think 1414 01:22:48,160 --> 01:22:51,559 Speaker 2: it's it's cool because one of the things I noticed 1415 01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:53,120 Speaker 2: when we went to crime con. Actually, one of the 1416 01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:55,840 Speaker 2: things my husband noticed first. He was just like, there's 1417 01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:57,679 Speaker 2: all women here. It's all women. 1418 01:22:57,760 --> 01:22:59,120 Speaker 4: He's like, this is so crazy. 1419 01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:02,879 Speaker 2: And I think, just being a mom and a wife myself, 1420 01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:06,120 Speaker 2: that a lot of times like Nicole's third and fourth 1421 01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,120 Speaker 2: on the list of who gets the attention, you know 1422 01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,120 Speaker 2: what I mean. I'm running a house, I'm making sure 1423 01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:14,040 Speaker 2: his career is going well. I'm making sure my kids 1424 01:23:14,040 --> 01:23:17,240 Speaker 2: are all in school and doing well, and sometimes I'm 1425 01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:21,040 Speaker 2: on the back burner. But there's some certain situations where women, 1426 01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:23,080 Speaker 2: you know, they get married and they have kids when 1427 01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:24,800 Speaker 2: they're in their twenties and they never get to go 1428 01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:28,040 Speaker 2: to college when but they probably would be really good 1429 01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:31,400 Speaker 2: forensic scientists, right, but they just don't have the opportunity, 1430 01:23:31,520 --> 01:23:34,240 Speaker 2: like you were saying, And the next best thing is 1431 01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:37,160 Speaker 2: for them to listen to podcasts like yours to kind 1432 01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:38,400 Speaker 2: of feel like they're doing. 1433 01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:39,080 Speaker 4: The job a little bit. 1434 01:23:40,120 --> 01:23:45,960 Speaker 3: It's vicarious, it is, it is. There is this vicarious 1435 01:23:46,040 --> 01:23:51,439 Speaker 3: element to it where you know you can brush up 1436 01:23:51,439 --> 01:23:53,640 Speaker 3: against it just enough and you're not going to have 1437 01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:58,160 Speaker 3: to come home, you know, kill my wife who you met, 1438 01:23:58,720 --> 01:24:01,599 Speaker 3: I love her so that she thinks the world of y'all. 1439 01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:06,000 Speaker 3: She goes on and on about y'all in the time 1440 01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:10,080 Speaker 3: that we had there. And you know, my wife, my 1441 01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:13,719 Speaker 3: wife is she's retired now. She's a school teacher, taught school. 1442 01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:15,719 Speaker 3: God bless her for some mean, we were so happy 1443 01:24:15,720 --> 01:24:19,360 Speaker 3: when she retired. God bless all school teachers out there 1444 01:24:19,400 --> 01:24:21,120 Speaker 3: right now. I don't I don't know how they do it. 1445 01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:24,160 Speaker 3: I wouldn't. You couldn't chase me fast enough, anyone could 1446 01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,799 Speaker 3: give me the job. But to give you an idea 1447 01:24:28,120 --> 01:24:32,599 Speaker 3: of kind of the world that that I inhabited as 1448 01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:39,080 Speaker 3: a practitioner, I compare myself and my colleagues to the 1449 01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:43,680 Speaker 3: great apes, where if you've seen stuff that that the 1450 01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,080 Speaker 3: researchers have done, where you they've got the videography in 1451 01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:50,080 Speaker 3: there that the apes will go about picking knits out 1452 01:24:50,120 --> 01:24:52,960 Speaker 3: of one another's scalps, you know to you know they're 1453 01:24:53,040 --> 01:24:56,800 Speaker 3: eating them, you know they're looking to. When you work 1454 01:24:57,120 --> 01:24:59,559 Speaker 3: at a medical examiner or corner's office, you live in 1455 01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:02,160 Speaker 3: such a alternative world. 1456 01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:03,360 Speaker 2: You. 1457 01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:06,280 Speaker 3: For instance, one of the things that we do for 1458 01:25:06,320 --> 01:25:10,120 Speaker 3: one another is we sniff one another. And people don't 1459 01:25:10,160 --> 01:25:13,640 Speaker 3: understand that because just because we've gotten in from a 1460 01:25:13,680 --> 01:25:15,800 Speaker 3: case doesn't mean our day is over with. We might 1461 01:25:15,880 --> 01:25:18,120 Speaker 3: have to go to court, we might have to go 1462 01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:20,040 Speaker 3: out and grab lunch, we might have a meeting we 1463 01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,680 Speaker 3: have to attend. And so we would walk by one 1464 01:25:23,680 --> 01:25:27,120 Speaker 3: another and they would say, and it's very common for 1465 01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:29,120 Speaker 3: somebody to say, well, how do you smell? How do 1466 01:25:29,200 --> 01:25:32,280 Speaker 3: I smell? And that question is not like, smell this 1467 01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:36,920 Speaker 3: lovely perfume or cologne that I have on. It's I 1468 01:25:36,960 --> 01:25:39,160 Speaker 3: don't smell anything. I think you're good. And what we're 1469 01:25:39,160 --> 01:25:41,080 Speaker 3: smelling for is that we had to deal with so 1470 01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:47,479 Speaker 3: many decomps that when you go into that environment, the 1471 01:25:47,840 --> 01:25:50,720 Speaker 3: elements of the and this is kind of a I 1472 01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:52,479 Speaker 3: think it's kind of a metaphor as well, but the 1473 01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:58,479 Speaker 3: elements that they're attached to death they attached to you. 1474 01:26:00,120 --> 01:26:05,880 Speaker 3: Now that happens physically. Yeah, facial hair hair. 1475 01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:07,960 Speaker 2: I was going to say, we had a guy one 1476 01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:10,920 Speaker 2: of the Medical Examiner's office when I interned. He always 1477 01:26:10,920 --> 01:26:12,679 Speaker 2: smelled like dcomp because of his beard. 1478 01:26:13,400 --> 01:26:16,160 Speaker 3: Always. Yeah, and it's one of those things. I was 1479 01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:22,800 Speaker 3: in a pickly wiggly refrigerated truck with bodies from a 1480 01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:27,000 Speaker 3: capsized oil service vessel. They were coming in day by 1481 01:26:27,080 --> 01:26:29,640 Speaker 3: day they were trying to outrun a hurricane or a 1482 01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:32,360 Speaker 3: tropical storm and think capsized. They all died and we 1483 01:26:32,400 --> 01:26:34,280 Speaker 3: didn't get them all on the same day. We're trying 1484 01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:36,200 Speaker 3: to get them identified. They were all in their underwear 1485 01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,920 Speaker 3: for some reason, nobody had any id on them. Had 1486 01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:40,599 Speaker 3: to cut the jaws out of every one of those bodies. 1487 01:26:40,640 --> 01:26:42,400 Speaker 3: These bodies are coming out of Gulf of Mexico, so 1488 01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:46,080 Speaker 3: they're swollen and bloated. And no matter how many baths, 1489 01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:48,160 Speaker 3: how many showers I took, I love a shower. I 1490 01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:52,080 Speaker 3: love a good shower. And back then my hair was 1491 01:26:52,120 --> 01:26:56,000 Speaker 3: really dark. I had this great tompsilic like mustache that's 1492 01:26:57,000 --> 01:26:57,719 Speaker 3: big brown. 1493 01:26:58,000 --> 01:26:59,400 Speaker 4: To post some pictures of the. 1494 01:26:59,439 --> 01:27:04,120 Speaker 3: Old school days, I do everything, and I wrote about 1495 01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:08,160 Speaker 3: this in my memoir, I look like a cancer patient. 1496 01:27:09,280 --> 01:27:14,400 Speaker 3: I wound up having too. I was so weary after 1497 01:27:14,439 --> 01:27:16,120 Speaker 3: that event, and there were other things that were happening 1498 01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:17,840 Speaker 3: to I wound up having to shave all of my 1499 01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:21,479 Speaker 3: hair off, shave my mustache off, even shaved my eyebrows off. 1500 01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:27,880 Speaker 3: And that seems nutty, but it had affected me to 1501 01:27:27,920 --> 01:27:33,679 Speaker 3: the point where you become neurotic about it. Plucking those 1502 01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:35,479 Speaker 3: hairs out all these sorts of things, and it sounds 1503 01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:39,400 Speaker 3: so absurd, I know, but that's that's the nature of 1504 01:27:39,400 --> 01:27:41,759 Speaker 3: what you do when you work at a medical examiner. 1505 01:27:41,960 --> 01:27:45,040 Speaker 3: When I would get home in the evenings, I would 1506 01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,439 Speaker 3: always have to come in through the rear entrance of 1507 01:27:47,439 --> 01:27:49,640 Speaker 3: our home through we had a mud room on the 1508 01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:51,559 Speaker 3: back of the house where the laundry is and all 1509 01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:57,040 Speaker 3: that stuff. And Kim, yes, she'd meet me at the 1510 01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,519 Speaker 3: back door and she would ask me not hey, babe, 1511 01:27:59,520 --> 01:28:01,559 Speaker 3: I love you so good, to seek say did you 1512 01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:07,000 Speaker 3: have a decomp today? And that's an interesting when you 1513 01:28:07,040 --> 01:28:09,040 Speaker 3: think about the position that you put your spouse in. 1514 01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:15,040 Speaker 3: You know, you you're there and you're you're leaving this 1515 01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:17,280 Speaker 3: world to death, which is what you always do. It's 1516 01:28:17,360 --> 01:28:20,280 Speaker 3: not like being a homicide detective. It's not what it's 1517 01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:25,000 Speaker 3: like at all. Your death day in, day out, twenty 1518 01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:27,800 Speaker 3: four to seven. You are seeking out to diad you're 1519 01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:32,719 Speaker 3: trying to understand what happened to them, no matter the circumstances, homicide, suicide, whatever, 1520 01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,160 Speaker 3: and you bring that, you literally bring that home with you. 1521 01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,920 Speaker 3: And so you know, my wife would I had a 1522 01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:42,800 Speaker 3: spot in the in the mudroom, I'd have to strip 1523 01:28:42,840 --> 01:28:45,800 Speaker 3: all my clothes off. She's a saint. She's a saint, 1524 01:28:45,840 --> 01:28:46,680 Speaker 3: she'd bag them all away. 1525 01:28:46,760 --> 01:28:48,759 Speaker 2: You don't want that smell in your house. You don't 1526 01:28:49,080 --> 01:28:51,960 Speaker 2: you want to come home and not have any association 1527 01:28:52,120 --> 01:28:55,080 Speaker 2: with what you just did. It's a very hard line, 1528 01:28:55,920 --> 01:28:56,360 Speaker 2: it is. 1529 01:28:56,479 --> 01:28:58,920 Speaker 3: It's very hard, and it had gotten so bad at 1530 01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:04,160 Speaker 3: the end of my career where I wound up working 1531 01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:09,000 Speaker 3: for twenty years as a medical legal death investigator, and 1532 01:29:09,000 --> 01:29:12,439 Speaker 3: then I transitioned into academia. And I've been doing it 1533 01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:19,240 Speaker 3: now for twenty years, so I'm really old. But I 1534 01:29:19,320 --> 01:29:24,439 Speaker 3: look back now at that very young man who had 1535 01:29:24,520 --> 01:29:26,880 Speaker 3: no business doing what he was doing. Somebody was willing 1536 01:29:26,920 --> 01:29:30,599 Speaker 3: to take a chance on this uneducated kid. I had 1537 01:29:30,640 --> 01:29:34,320 Speaker 3: no education. I just had tenacity. I kept coming to 1538 01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:38,880 Speaker 3: the more volunteering in the morgue, who does that mopping up, 1539 01:29:38,920 --> 01:29:43,000 Speaker 3: the more rocking, mopping up maggots, you know, And then 1540 01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:44,720 Speaker 3: finally the first day I'll never forget one of the 1541 01:29:44,760 --> 01:29:47,000 Speaker 3: most exciting moments in my life is one of the 1542 01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:49,840 Speaker 3: theologists looked at me and said, and I'd been scribing 1543 01:29:49,920 --> 01:29:51,799 Speaker 3: for him for a while. I'd sit over on the stool. 1544 01:29:52,000 --> 01:29:54,280 Speaker 3: I had my own scrubtsuit, I'd sit on the stool 1545 01:29:55,040 --> 01:29:58,080 Speaker 3: and I would sit there and I had actually a 1546 01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:01,280 Speaker 3: scriptsuit and what they used for as a sectioning gown, 1547 01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:04,759 Speaker 3: which is like a it's a green gown that ties 1548 01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:08,200 Speaker 3: on the side over here, and it was it looks 1549 01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:12,479 Speaker 3: just like a scrubtsy. And I would faithfully wash it, 1550 01:30:12,560 --> 01:30:15,360 Speaker 3: you know, and I would describe for him. And then 1551 01:30:15,400 --> 01:30:17,160 Speaker 3: one day he looks over at me and says, do 1552 01:30:17,200 --> 01:30:19,679 Speaker 3: you want to close? And I thought that he meant, 1553 01:30:19,920 --> 01:30:23,519 Speaker 3: go get my mop and mop up everything here, you know, 1554 01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:26,719 Speaker 3: which is what I was doing. It's not what he meant. 1555 01:30:27,160 --> 01:30:28,519 Speaker 4: He was like, you could say, do. 1556 01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:32,760 Speaker 3: You want to close? That is exciting, and it really was. 1557 01:30:33,040 --> 01:30:35,639 Speaker 3: And I knew I knew how to hold the needle. 1558 01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:38,200 Speaker 3: I've been watching, but until you put it in your hands, 1559 01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:43,280 Speaker 3: until you feel that tension on the skin down near 1560 01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:46,000 Speaker 3: the pubis for the first time, and what how much 1561 01:30:46,640 --> 01:30:48,920 Speaker 3: force it takes to push through. 1562 01:30:49,479 --> 01:30:53,920 Speaker 1: It's kind of unbelievable, right it is, and tying it 1563 01:30:53,960 --> 01:30:56,120 Speaker 1: off and then start with a baseball stitch and you're 1564 01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:59,760 Speaker 1: going up and you're I remember being terrified I was 1565 01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:01,320 Speaker 1: going to stick myself, which I did. 1566 01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:05,400 Speaker 3: Multiple times over the years and cut myself and injected 1567 01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:08,800 Speaker 3: myself and did everything else, you know. But you know, 1568 01:31:08,840 --> 01:31:11,600 Speaker 3: I look back at that time and it was invaluable 1569 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:16,360 Speaker 3: because it's something now that you know, I can pass 1570 01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:18,680 Speaker 3: on to my students, I can pass on to my 1571 01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:22,639 Speaker 3: friends that listen to Bodybags, and my wife and I now, 1572 01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:24,880 Speaker 3: you know, we think about the tears that were shed, 1573 01:31:25,360 --> 01:31:29,000 Speaker 3: all the dead kids that never had a voice, the 1574 01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:31,840 Speaker 3: stories I would come home and tell her. It would 1575 01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:35,960 Speaker 3: make us hug our babies even tighter. Appreciate those moments, 1576 01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,400 Speaker 3: and many times I would fail to appreciate them because 1577 01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:41,920 Speaker 3: I'm so obsessed and worried about having to go back 1578 01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:45,599 Speaker 3: to work. I'd work four days on ten hour shifts. 1579 01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:48,599 Speaker 3: Of course, ten hour shifts always turned into thirteen hour shifts, 1580 01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:51,439 Speaker 3: and it had gotten so bad at the end where 1581 01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:56,640 Speaker 3: I would pick up my keys at the end of 1582 01:31:56,760 --> 01:32:01,000 Speaker 3: my last watch that I was on a call, that 1583 01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:03,719 Speaker 3: I walked out of the door of the m's office. 1584 01:32:04,120 --> 01:32:06,439 Speaker 3: I was thinking about having to come back here in 1585 01:32:06,479 --> 01:32:08,800 Speaker 3: three days. I wasn't thinking about, Gee, I'm going to 1586 01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:11,240 Speaker 3: go home be with my family. I was thinking I've 1587 01:32:11,240 --> 01:32:13,400 Speaker 3: got to come back here in three days. A snow 1588 01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:14,719 Speaker 3: way for anybody to live. 1589 01:32:16,080 --> 01:32:18,040 Speaker 4: When I interned there. It was nice. 1590 01:32:18,080 --> 01:32:19,640 Speaker 2: I was there for three months and I learned a 1591 01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:21,720 Speaker 2: lot and I got to cut my first body on 1592 01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:24,280 Speaker 2: a dcomp and all this stuff. But like I was, 1593 01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:27,519 Speaker 2: I thought to myself, I can never work here full time. 1594 01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:32,320 Speaker 2: It would It's just not for me. Seeing people that 1595 01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:34,720 Speaker 2: didn't know that they were going to die that day, 1596 01:32:35,120 --> 01:32:37,840 Speaker 2: and I can't deal with I don't know. I did 1597 01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:41,400 Speaker 2: a lot of autopsies on fetus and uh infants and 1598 01:32:41,800 --> 01:32:44,800 Speaker 2: even children when I rotated at the children's hospital and 1599 01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:47,479 Speaker 2: they had they all medical diseases. You know that, you're 1600 01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:49,759 Speaker 2: just like they were. They had this and they couldn't 1601 01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:52,920 Speaker 2: do anything to save them. But when you see kids 1602 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:56,479 Speaker 2: dying in accidents and just abuse and stuff, I just 1603 01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:57,280 Speaker 2: was like, I can't do. 1604 01:32:57,320 --> 01:32:57,920 Speaker 4: This every day. 1605 01:32:58,680 --> 01:33:02,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're seeing after you know, the kids in particular, 1606 01:33:02,360 --> 01:33:04,200 Speaker 3: and I don't want to put words in your mouth, 1607 01:33:04,240 --> 01:33:07,200 Speaker 3: but it's like, Okay, you look at it on balance, 1608 01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,280 Speaker 3: and you think, what good is just coming out of this. Well, 1609 01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:16,559 Speaker 3: from a clinical standpoint, if I identify some kind of genetic 1610 01:33:16,600 --> 01:33:19,479 Speaker 3: anomalies that I can pass on to the family and say, Okay, 1611 01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:22,320 Speaker 3: you guys really need to be aware of this. This 1612 01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:24,760 Speaker 3: is what we found. I mean, what a what a 1613 01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:29,120 Speaker 3: redemptive moment that is. And amongst all of that sadness. 1614 01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:33,400 Speaker 3: But who am I going to interdict with somebody that 1615 01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:36,120 Speaker 3: starved their kid to death? I mean yeah, I mean 1616 01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:38,040 Speaker 3: they'll hook them up on charges. Maybe. Are they going 1617 01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:40,120 Speaker 3: to stay in prison? No? Are people going to stop 1618 01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:44,519 Speaker 3: starving their kids to death or you know, beating them 1619 01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:47,120 Speaker 3: to death? No, they're not. It's still it's going on 1620 01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:50,960 Speaker 3: right now as you and I speak. You know, somewhere 1621 01:33:51,000 --> 01:33:53,120 Speaker 3: out there, there's kid being abused, There's kids going to 1622 01:33:53,160 --> 01:33:56,200 Speaker 3: wind up dying. It happens all the time. There's nothing 1623 01:33:56,240 --> 01:33:59,240 Speaker 3: that we do it's going to stop that. And that's 1624 01:33:59,240 --> 01:34:02,479 Speaker 3: why I think there's a certain time where you have 1625 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:06,479 Speaker 3: to be an adult enough to realize and you have 1626 01:34:06,560 --> 01:34:08,719 Speaker 3: to swallow your pride and so that can't do this anymore. 1627 01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:11,240 Speaker 3: It's going to kill me. It's gonna kill me, it's 1628 01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:14,640 Speaker 3: gonna kill my family. Uh. And it's a it's a 1629 01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:20,280 Speaker 3: it's a baton death march, you know, where every single 1630 01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:22,960 Speaker 3: day that's all your your bearing witness to and the 1631 01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:27,360 Speaker 3: human human spirit's not intended to do that. It's not 1632 01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:30,120 Speaker 3: like working on a funeral home you know where you know, 1633 01:34:30,200 --> 01:34:32,960 Speaker 3: they'll say, well, we're here to serve families and provide 1634 01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:37,080 Speaker 3: you're there at selic casket and you're there to dress 1635 01:34:37,120 --> 01:34:41,120 Speaker 3: things up and make it that way, and that's all 1636 01:34:41,120 --> 01:34:44,080 Speaker 3: find and good people need that. People think they need that. 1637 01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:48,240 Speaker 3: God bless them, God speed. But you know, when you're 1638 01:34:48,280 --> 01:34:52,400 Speaker 3: in the field and you're working as as a death investigator, 1639 01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:55,920 Speaker 3: it's it's hard. Uh. But when when you can no fine, 1640 01:34:56,240 --> 01:34:58,439 Speaker 3: no longer find redemption in it, that's the time you 1641 01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:01,680 Speaker 3: need to walk away from it. And I'm that I'm 1642 01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:05,479 Speaker 3: glad I didn't completely go over the cliff, you know. 1643 01:35:05,600 --> 01:35:08,080 Speaker 3: I'm glad that I was rained back in and my 1644 01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:11,240 Speaker 3: wife supported me in that, you know, because she went 1645 01:35:11,280 --> 01:35:13,000 Speaker 3: through it, you know, with me, she saw it all 1646 01:35:13,200 --> 01:35:16,160 Speaker 3: and smelled it all. And you know, would hear about 1647 01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:18,600 Speaker 3: these stories that if I you know, it's like I 1648 01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,559 Speaker 3: often tell people a lot of stuff that that I 1649 01:35:21,600 --> 01:35:25,120 Speaker 3: saw and that I did. If you and I wrote 1650 01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:27,280 Speaker 3: a script together, n Cole, and we walked into some 1651 01:35:27,400 --> 01:35:30,240 Speaker 3: producer's office in Hollywood, they say this is too outlandish. 1652 01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:32,280 Speaker 3: I'd never knew it, and we're not going to sell it. 1653 01:35:32,479 --> 01:35:36,320 Speaker 3: There's no way anybody would believe the story, you know. 1654 01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:38,639 Speaker 3: But yeah, and there's a million of the stories out 1655 01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:41,519 Speaker 3: there like that. It's not just me. I'm very small, 1656 01:35:41,560 --> 01:35:44,080 Speaker 3: little guy. I just happened to be in the field 1657 01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:47,080 Speaker 3: at these particular times. Right now, there's somebody out there 1658 01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:51,120 Speaker 3: right now as I speak, that's climbing under a house 1659 01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:54,080 Speaker 3: with a mag and infested body. They're laying next to 1660 01:35:54,120 --> 01:35:56,320 Speaker 3: the body as they examined the body in the dark, 1661 01:35:57,400 --> 01:36:00,080 Speaker 3: you know, damp area that no one has been in 1662 01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:04,880 Speaker 3: years and years. And there's people that are observing things 1663 01:36:04,920 --> 01:36:07,320 Speaker 3: right now that we can't even begin to fathom out 1664 01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:10,280 Speaker 3: here in America. Right now as we speak, they're out 1665 01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:12,000 Speaker 3: there doing this job day in and day out, and 1666 01:36:12,040 --> 01:36:15,439 Speaker 3: nobody ever, nobody ever thinks about it. You know. My 1667 01:36:15,560 --> 01:36:17,880 Speaker 3: first date that I read with my wife, we'd gone 1668 01:36:17,920 --> 01:36:20,160 Speaker 3: to a Braves game and we went out. 1669 01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:25,240 Speaker 2: This is the only thing we're gonna we're going to 1670 01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:26,439 Speaker 2: disagree on, Joseph. 1671 01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:30,200 Speaker 3: Well, I'm not a baseball'ser. I mean, I'll watch it. 1672 01:36:30,200 --> 01:36:34,439 Speaker 3: It's not right. Really. We went to a place called 1673 01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:39,320 Speaker 3: Fellini's Pizza, which is everything's named Peachtree in Atlanta. I 1674 01:36:39,360 --> 01:36:41,960 Speaker 3: was working for them by this time. I left my 1675 01:36:42,080 --> 01:36:44,120 Speaker 3: job in New Orleans, which is my hometown, and then 1676 01:36:44,160 --> 01:36:47,720 Speaker 3: wound up taking the job in Atlanta. And she's a 1677 01:36:47,760 --> 01:36:50,320 Speaker 3: school she was a school teacher. And we were sitting there, 1678 01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:53,200 Speaker 3: we had a pitcher of beer and we were eating pizza, 1679 01:36:53,280 --> 01:37:01,040 Speaker 3: and and she looked at me and said, uh, now, 1680 01:37:01,080 --> 01:37:04,880 Speaker 3: what is it that you do for a living? I said, well, 1681 01:37:05,040 --> 01:37:09,240 Speaker 3: I said, I'm a death investigator. She said, you mean 1682 01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:11,320 Speaker 3: like a cop. I was like no, I said, I'm 1683 01:37:11,320 --> 01:37:13,400 Speaker 3: the eyes and the ears of forensic pathologists out on 1684 01:37:13,400 --> 01:37:16,880 Speaker 3: the field. She said, I thought they'd go out there. 1685 01:37:16,880 --> 01:37:19,200 Speaker 3: I was like, no, forensic pathologists don't go into the field. 1686 01:37:19,240 --> 01:37:23,400 Speaker 3: That's a Hollywood fiction. And they might go, but rarely, 1687 01:37:24,320 --> 01:37:26,360 Speaker 3: and you don't want them out there because they don't 1688 01:37:26,560 --> 01:37:28,720 Speaker 3: they don't know how to process crime scenes. They don't 1689 01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:31,760 Speaker 3: have you know, they're good in the morgue. And so 1690 01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:33,920 Speaker 3: i'm their eyes and ears, and my colleagues are too. 1691 01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:35,519 Speaker 3: So that's what we go out and do, and we 1692 01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:38,360 Speaker 3: notify families of deaths, and then I'll work in the 1693 01:37:38,400 --> 01:37:42,479 Speaker 3: morgue and you know, all these sorts of things. And 1694 01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:48,320 Speaker 3: profoundly enough, and that she didn't she didn't really think 1695 01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:50,280 Speaker 3: about what she was saying. When she said this is 1696 01:37:50,600 --> 01:37:53,880 Speaker 3: a first date. She looks at me and says, until 1697 01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:58,880 Speaker 3: I met you, I never thought about death. It's like, wow, 1698 01:37:59,040 --> 01:38:00,920 Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not going to have second chance. Here 1699 01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:03,040 Speaker 3: got to make She's beautiful, you know, She's sitting there 1700 01:38:03,040 --> 01:38:08,000 Speaker 3: and uh and I was thinking, you know, I'm uh, well, 1701 01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:09,880 Speaker 3: I lost this one. I'm not gonna have a chance. 1702 01:38:10,280 --> 01:38:12,400 Speaker 3: You know she's saying, she's making quotes like that, I 1703 01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:14,760 Speaker 3: never thought about death until I've met you here. I've 1704 01:38:14,800 --> 01:38:16,879 Speaker 3: told that story is a number of time, but it's 1705 01:38:16,960 --> 01:38:21,120 Speaker 3: it's a little slice of life for me that because 1706 01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:24,519 Speaker 3: you know, death had become my norm. It was my norm, 1707 01:38:24,560 --> 01:38:27,400 Speaker 3: and that's that's no way to live. You know, that's 1708 01:38:28,800 --> 01:38:31,800 Speaker 3: where death is your norm. And you're right. I'm so 1709 01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:34,320 Speaker 3: glad you didn't go to work for the Emmy's office. 1710 01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:37,800 Speaker 3: I can't tell you how happy I am that you 1711 01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:41,960 Speaker 3: didn't make that decision. I'm glad that you took your 1712 01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:45,679 Speaker 3: skills and applied it to truly helping people. I mean, 1713 01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:50,400 Speaker 3: like helping people with the diagnoses, the sturgical diagnoses that 1714 01:38:50,479 --> 01:38:52,439 Speaker 3: you can make. You know, these specimens that are coming 1715 01:38:52,479 --> 01:38:54,240 Speaker 3: out and you're taking a look at and what you're 1716 01:38:54,280 --> 01:38:57,640 Speaker 3: doing is like literally, I don't think I don't know 1717 01:38:57,680 --> 01:39:01,679 Speaker 3: that people fully understand, you know, how valuable an asset 1718 01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:04,639 Speaker 3: you are, you know, when you're talking about looking at 1719 01:39:04,680 --> 01:39:08,960 Speaker 3: some tumor, uh and trying to make an assessment of 1720 01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:13,479 Speaker 3: this thing that has been excised from somebody's you know, body, 1721 01:39:13,840 --> 01:39:16,519 Speaker 3: and they're trying to understand what's the course of action here, 1722 01:39:16,760 --> 01:39:20,320 Speaker 3: your decision, your diagnosis as you're sitting at that scope 1723 01:39:20,960 --> 01:39:24,160 Speaker 3: is so valuable. And that I always wanted to be 1724 01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:29,360 Speaker 3: in that environment. I think that I secretly, uh you know, 1725 01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:35,120 Speaker 3: Harbard thoughts that I would eventually go to what was it, 1726 01:39:35,120 --> 01:39:37,920 Speaker 3: It was either Duke or I can't remember you, And 1727 01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,760 Speaker 3: I think, yeah, And I thought about doing the PA 1728 01:39:40,800 --> 01:39:42,920 Speaker 3: program there for a while. I used hope that memory 1729 01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:45,479 Speaker 3: would get one. I would have loved to have gone 1730 01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:50,240 Speaker 3: through that program and just do nothing but autopsies, not 1731 01:39:50,360 --> 01:39:52,920 Speaker 3: have to deal with families or just sit in sit 1732 01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:55,559 Speaker 3: in a lab, you know. And and it's not I 1733 01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:57,880 Speaker 3: don't mean to be dismissive by saying that, but the 1734 01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:00,360 Speaker 3: peace of that and you know, we I heard off 1735 01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:02,880 Speaker 3: the conversation and it was so beautiful the way you 1736 01:40:02,920 --> 01:40:07,720 Speaker 3: put it about and people other than you and I 1737 01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:09,760 Speaker 3: and people in our field are not going to understand that. 1738 01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:12,040 Speaker 3: But you talked about that piece that you have in 1739 01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,880 Speaker 3: the morgue with a body. Oh yeah, and that's a 1740 01:40:14,880 --> 01:40:20,040 Speaker 3: true moment of discovery in there. There's nothing that there's 1741 01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:24,559 Speaker 3: no cross talk, there's no phone, it's just you one 1742 01:40:24,560 --> 01:40:27,200 Speaker 3: on one with the body, grossly examining the body and 1743 01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:31,200 Speaker 3: trying to understand what happened to this person and trying 1744 01:40:31,200 --> 01:40:34,200 Speaker 3: to assess it in that moment, and and know that 1745 01:40:34,439 --> 01:40:37,160 Speaker 3: whatever you come up with is going to be invaluable. 1746 01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,720 Speaker 3: And there is a real piece in that, you know, 1747 01:40:41,760 --> 01:40:45,400 Speaker 3: And you kind of leave that that morg area after 1748 01:40:45,400 --> 01:40:48,200 Speaker 3: you've done what you've done, you've cleaned up, and your 1749 01:40:48,240 --> 01:40:50,360 Speaker 3: head back upstairs, and all of a sudden the noise 1750 01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:53,679 Speaker 3: begins to invade again, and all the static that's around 1751 01:40:53,760 --> 01:40:56,320 Speaker 3: you and everything, and there's there is truly a certain 1752 01:40:56,360 --> 01:40:58,960 Speaker 3: piece that that happened. Most people want to stay away 1753 01:40:58,960 --> 01:41:01,080 Speaker 3: from the more there are people that want to be there. 1754 01:41:01,120 --> 01:41:03,479 Speaker 3: But for the line's share of people's you know, they'll 1755 01:41:03,640 --> 01:41:05,960 Speaker 3: take the loop around the long way in the basement 1756 01:41:06,000 --> 01:41:08,080 Speaker 3: if they've got to go to the work cafeterias in 1757 01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:10,519 Speaker 3: the in hospitals, always next to the mor give or 1758 01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:11,400 Speaker 3: notice it, I don't. 1759 01:41:11,240 --> 01:41:14,560 Speaker 2: Know, but we had patients all the time, like accidentally 1760 01:41:14,760 --> 01:41:17,800 Speaker 2: one time we had the door, yes, and I'm just like, 1761 01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:20,760 Speaker 2: oh my god. They would have been traumatized if they 1762 01:41:20,760 --> 01:41:22,360 Speaker 2: saw anything that was going on. 1763 01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:23,320 Speaker 4: In that room. 1764 01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:25,599 Speaker 3: They walk in and they're where we used to call 1765 01:41:25,640 --> 01:41:28,000 Speaker 3: it a johnny coat, you know, the hospital gown, the 1766 01:41:28,080 --> 01:41:31,720 Speaker 3: johnny coat, and they're pushing an ivy pole and they put, hey, 1767 01:41:31,760 --> 01:41:33,920 Speaker 3: what's this door? And they open it up, and you're 1768 01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:36,960 Speaker 3: always had that, you know, there was an internal lock 1769 01:41:37,040 --> 01:41:39,400 Speaker 3: that we could use, but and it would always seem 1770 01:41:39,439 --> 01:41:42,280 Speaker 3: I worked in some really old old hospitals and the 1771 01:41:42,320 --> 01:41:46,559 Speaker 3: way they used to be designed it You would come 1772 01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:49,679 Speaker 3: walking out of the moar at these hospitals and right 1773 01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:54,040 Speaker 3: down the hallway is the dining area, you know, and 1774 01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:57,000 Speaker 3: it's where everybody went to eat for some reason, and 1775 01:41:57,040 --> 01:42:00,200 Speaker 3: the food was always tremendous, and nobody in there other 1776 01:42:00,280 --> 01:42:02,720 Speaker 3: than you know, maybe the nursing staff and people like that. 1777 01:42:02,760 --> 01:42:04,840 Speaker 3: They know that that's the more because that's where they 1778 01:42:04,920 --> 01:42:08,080 Speaker 3: take the bodies, you know, when or the transport service 1779 01:42:10,200 --> 01:42:12,280 Speaker 3: I take the bodies in there and you know, place 1780 01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:14,639 Speaker 3: them in the train and leave them and leave if 1781 01:42:14,960 --> 01:42:17,479 Speaker 3: But they don't know what's going on down there, you know, 1782 01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:20,040 Speaker 3: in that little room. You know they have no idea. 1783 01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:23,960 Speaker 3: But yet the cafeteria is right there. And I have 1784 01:42:24,040 --> 01:42:27,800 Speaker 3: to say, I'm not as a patient, but as a 1785 01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:30,840 Speaker 3: person who walks into a hospital cafeteria. Some of the 1786 01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:32,559 Speaker 3: best meals I've ever had in my life were in 1787 01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:37,240 Speaker 3: cafeterias and hospitals. But yeah, it's it's kind of a 1788 01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:40,960 Speaker 3: Hospitals in and of themselves are weird places. They're like 1789 01:42:41,040 --> 01:42:45,040 Speaker 3: little cities, little islands, and there's a pecking order. A 1790 01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:49,000 Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand that. And uh, pathology is 1791 01:42:49,080 --> 01:42:52,720 Speaker 3: generally out there, you know, on a little island by itself. 1792 01:42:52,800 --> 01:42:55,160 Speaker 3: You have people that come in and out not always 1793 01:42:55,160 --> 01:42:56,960 Speaker 3: wanted to be a part of that. I could, I would, 1794 01:42:57,040 --> 01:42:59,920 Speaker 3: I would just scrape the surface of it. And you know, 1795 01:43:00,080 --> 01:43:03,559 Speaker 3: going into hospitals and assisting with private cases and doing 1796 01:43:03,800 --> 01:43:08,040 Speaker 3: temporary That's how I got started. The corner's office was 1797 01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:10,560 Speaker 3: being renovated and we're using a brand new hospital to 1798 01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:16,439 Speaker 3: our autopsies, bringing in decomposed bodies into a hospital autopsy suite. 1799 01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:21,560 Speaker 3: I remember those days. That would never happen now. But yeah, 1800 01:43:21,600 --> 01:43:22,240 Speaker 3: we brought. 1801 01:43:22,040 --> 01:43:25,800 Speaker 2: In an exhumed body once. That was pretty interesting, but 1802 01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:28,920 Speaker 2: it was it was supposed to be in a hospital 1803 01:43:28,920 --> 01:43:32,040 Speaker 2: autopsy and the person got buried by accident, and then 1804 01:43:32,200 --> 01:43:34,160 Speaker 2: they had to get dug off like a year later 1805 01:43:34,280 --> 01:43:37,200 Speaker 2: because when they finally realized that the person didn't have 1806 01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:40,439 Speaker 2: an autopsy, the ground was too frozen to dig them up. 1807 01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:42,800 Speaker 4: So it just took it took a while. 1808 01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:47,920 Speaker 3: Very unusual case, but they are in exhubmations in and 1809 01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:51,520 Speaker 3: of themselves or fascinating. I'm a history guy, so anytime 1810 01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:55,080 Speaker 3: I'm there to see a grave cracked open and you 1811 01:43:55,200 --> 01:43:57,479 Speaker 3: never know, you learn a lot. You learn a lot 1812 01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,799 Speaker 3: about first off, you learn a lot about the skill 1813 01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:02,840 Speaker 3: of the funeral. 1814 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:04,480 Speaker 4: Director, Yeah, for sure. 1815 01:44:04,320 --> 01:44:10,479 Speaker 3: Because if they don't do an effective job, you're going 1816 01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:12,720 Speaker 3: to wind up with a real mess literally on your hand. 1817 01:44:12,800 --> 01:44:15,120 Speaker 2: And this guy was underground for a year and he 1818 01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:17,719 Speaker 2: just I couldn't believe it because I was really obviously, 1819 01:44:17,760 --> 01:44:19,479 Speaker 2: I was really scared to have a person that has 1820 01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:21,479 Speaker 2: been has been dead for a year in the hospital 1821 01:44:21,560 --> 01:44:24,960 Speaker 2: because I thought, if that smells really bad, that's going 1822 01:44:25,000 --> 01:44:28,439 Speaker 2: to permeate and people are going to smell it, and 1823 01:44:28,479 --> 01:44:31,200 Speaker 2: you don't want people in a hospital to smell that smell. 1824 01:44:30,920 --> 01:44:31,160 Speaker 3: You know. 1825 01:44:31,240 --> 01:44:34,280 Speaker 4: But he was he looked, he slid makeup on his face. 1826 01:44:34,320 --> 01:44:35,040 Speaker 4: It was insane. 1827 01:44:35,200 --> 01:44:37,640 Speaker 3: Yeah. I had a guy that was had been on 1828 01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:39,920 Speaker 3: the ground for sixteen years. He was an African American 1829 01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:43,280 Speaker 3: gentleman that was a pastor, and it came to light 1830 01:44:43,320 --> 01:44:48,760 Speaker 3: that his wife, It is true, his wife may have 1831 01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:52,000 Speaker 3: poisoned him. And they thought that it may have been 1832 01:44:52,040 --> 01:44:57,000 Speaker 3: heavy metals, and so we did an exhamation. I'll never 1833 01:44:57,040 --> 01:45:00,639 Speaker 3: forget this. It's one of these moments in tom He 1834 01:45:00,680 --> 01:45:04,519 Speaker 3: was dressed all in white, had a white suit, white shirt, 1835 01:45:04,560 --> 01:45:10,439 Speaker 3: white tie. He had red socks and they put shoes 1836 01:45:10,439 --> 01:45:12,800 Speaker 3: on him and had red patent leather shoes on. And 1837 01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:15,840 Speaker 3: I'll never forget this guy. And he had a what 1838 01:45:15,960 --> 01:45:20,080 Speaker 3: had been in his lapel, a red carnation and the 1839 01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:24,799 Speaker 3: flower was completely wither, but it had stained his lapel. 1840 01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:29,880 Speaker 3: And the only sign of change that had occurred with 1841 01:45:30,040 --> 01:45:34,280 Speaker 3: him was he had a large focal area of mold 1842 01:45:34,520 --> 01:45:36,439 Speaker 3: that had grown on his face. Other than that, he 1843 01:45:36,640 --> 01:45:40,120 Speaker 3: was completely intact, so cool, no foul smell. There was 1844 01:45:40,160 --> 01:45:42,679 Speaker 3: no water intrusion because lots of times with the vaults, 1845 01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:47,920 Speaker 3: you'll get People won't realize this, but because you're subterranean, 1846 01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:50,479 Speaker 3: you don't know what's going on beneath the ground. And 1847 01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:53,840 Speaker 3: I think people think that bodies are perfectly sealed and 1848 01:45:53,840 --> 01:45:57,680 Speaker 3: they're dry, and they're not. It's a nightmare scenario. And 1849 01:45:57,720 --> 01:46:00,600 Speaker 3: so many times detened upon the wa water table if 1850 01:46:00,600 --> 01:46:03,280 Speaker 3: it rises, if you've got like flash flooding that occurs 1851 01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:06,800 Speaker 3: in an area, you'll get water intrusion in these things 1852 01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:09,320 Speaker 3: in the caskets will literally float like this and then 1853 01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:12,479 Speaker 3: drain back out, and so you have to contend with 1854 01:46:12,600 --> 01:46:16,519 Speaker 3: that and talk about the smell there generally with a 1855 01:46:16,560 --> 01:46:21,719 Speaker 3: truly well embalmed body. I learned this from a forensic 1856 01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:24,600 Speaker 3: pathologist because I for some reason, it really gave me 1857 01:46:24,640 --> 01:46:27,920 Speaker 3: the creeps. First time I did an exhimation to be 1858 01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:30,880 Speaker 3: involved in it, and I'd done a lot of other 1859 01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:33,320 Speaker 3: cases freshly down, I mean, people that had just been 1860 01:46:33,400 --> 01:46:35,800 Speaker 3: killed in the most awful ways. But for some reason 1861 01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:38,080 Speaker 3: I was really put off by an exhumation. The very 1862 01:46:38,120 --> 01:46:40,800 Speaker 3: first one, I'll never forget. It was a lady and 1863 01:46:40,840 --> 01:46:42,679 Speaker 3: he said, come here, I want you to smell something. 1864 01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:46,600 Speaker 3: If I okay, it's not your finger or something else. No, 1865 01:46:46,720 --> 01:46:49,960 Speaker 3: he says, come over here, lean over next to her 1866 01:46:50,000 --> 01:46:54,799 Speaker 3: mouth and her nose and inhale and he said. I said, okay. 1867 01:46:55,200 --> 01:47:00,639 Speaker 3: I pulled down my mask and like that. He said, 1868 01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:03,040 Speaker 3: did you smell it? I said, I smelled something. He said, 1869 01:47:03,120 --> 01:47:06,680 Speaker 3: it's got almost a sickly rose like scent to it. 1870 01:47:07,160 --> 01:47:09,680 Speaker 3: I smelled it again. How do you tan if it 1871 01:47:09,760 --> 01:47:14,840 Speaker 3: didn't and it was it had the body? You know, 1872 01:47:14,920 --> 01:47:17,960 Speaker 3: with these embalmed bodies, if they're done well, first off, 1873 01:47:18,000 --> 01:47:21,839 Speaker 3: the texture is almost I describe it to people sometimes 1874 01:47:21,880 --> 01:47:25,120 Speaker 3: it feels almost like the surface of an overinflated basketball. 1875 01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:28,280 Speaker 3: That's kind of how it feels. The tissues very very 1876 01:47:28,320 --> 01:47:36,920 Speaker 3: from and I have yet to have worked on an 1877 01:47:37,000 --> 01:47:41,519 Speaker 3: exhamation where it was like a dcomp you know, where 1878 01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:44,080 Speaker 3: we've taken it out of a river or a swamp 1879 01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:48,439 Speaker 3: or out of a home. I'd not had had that 1880 01:47:48,520 --> 01:47:54,600 Speaker 3: experience before. Every exhumed body that I'd ever worked, the 1881 01:47:55,240 --> 01:47:58,920 Speaker 3: bodies were fantastically intact. I've had a few where I 1882 01:47:59,120 --> 01:48:02,480 Speaker 3: questioned how well they've been actually embalmed. 1883 01:48:02,520 --> 01:48:06,120 Speaker 2: But you know so well, Joseph, I could talk to 1884 01:48:06,160 --> 01:48:10,040 Speaker 2: you for the next fifteen hours today. It's been so 1885 01:48:10,240 --> 01:48:12,760 Speaker 2: nice talking to you, and I really hope that you 1886 01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:15,920 Speaker 2: come back and we could share more stories like this. 1887 01:48:16,280 --> 01:48:19,800 Speaker 3: Oh, I'd welcome it. I want to offer you a 1888 01:48:19,800 --> 01:48:22,160 Speaker 3: personal invitation to come over to body Bags. We would 1889 01:48:22,240 --> 01:48:23,479 Speaker 3: love to host you sometime. 1890 01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:24,080 Speaker 4: Awesome. 1891 01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:27,080 Speaker 3: Bring Maria with you. We would love to chat with 1892 01:48:27,120 --> 01:48:29,840 Speaker 3: her as well. The door is open. We would love 1893 01:48:29,880 --> 01:48:31,599 Speaker 3: to have you come over and let's have a chat. 1894 01:48:31,680 --> 01:48:35,400 Speaker 3: We can continue the discussion and maybe dig in some 1895 01:48:35,479 --> 01:48:38,920 Speaker 3: cases that are out there and things that are you know, 1896 01:48:39,240 --> 01:48:43,439 Speaker 3: some fascinating cases that have got some medical intrigue to them. 1897 01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:46,600 Speaker 2: Perhaps, Okay, awesome. I have a couple in mind that 1898 01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:47,439 Speaker 2: I will let you. 1899 01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:49,519 Speaker 4: Know that I'd like to know about. 1900 01:48:49,560 --> 01:48:52,360 Speaker 2: Could you tell everyone where they could find you, obviously 1901 01:48:52,400 --> 01:48:53,879 Speaker 2: your podcast body Bags? 1902 01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:58,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure. First off, I welcome the opportunity just to 1903 01:48:58,040 --> 01:49:02,760 Speaker 3: tell people to introduce Introduce everybody to my university. It's 1904 01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:08,040 Speaker 3: Jacksonville State University in Alabama, not Jacksonville, Florida. It's JSU 1905 01:49:08,120 --> 01:49:12,080 Speaker 3: dot E Edu, JSU dot e Edu. And then Bodybags Podcast. 1906 01:49:13,080 --> 01:49:17,559 Speaker 3: I'm on iHeart as well as Apple and Spotify, and 1907 01:49:17,600 --> 01:49:19,400 Speaker 3: there are a few other platforms you can find me 1908 01:49:19,439 --> 01:49:21,360 Speaker 3: on out there. And then I up here on any 1909 01:49:21,439 --> 01:49:24,400 Speaker 3: number of you know, Core TV and Low and crime 1910 01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:28,040 Speaker 3: and NewsNation. I'm on News Nation a lot, but primarily 1911 01:49:28,040 --> 01:49:30,240 Speaker 3: I do a lot of stuff obviously with Nancy Grace, 1912 01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:34,679 Speaker 3: I'm on her program, which appears on Merit Merritt Street Media, 1913 01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:37,720 Speaker 3: which is doctor Phil's new imprint. I do a lot 1914 01:49:37,720 --> 01:49:42,280 Speaker 3: of work with everybody's friend of Vinnie Politan, who has 1915 01:49:42,280 --> 01:49:44,320 Speaker 3: a nighttime show in Court TV. He and I go 1916 01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:47,439 Speaker 3: back years and years and he's a dear soul, so 1917 01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:50,120 Speaker 3: I like working with Vinnie as well. So, uh, you know, 1918 01:49:50,200 --> 01:49:52,559 Speaker 3: I'm out here, you know, knocking around most of tom 1919 01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:56,519 Speaker 3: and you know, I enjoy just talking about the science 1920 01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:02,519 Speaker 3: of death and the science of of investigation. So welcome 1921 01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:05,160 Speaker 3: all comers, So come on over and we'll have fun. 1922 01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:07,920 Speaker 4: That's so awesome. Thank you so much for being here. 1923 01:50:08,320 --> 01:50:09,759 Speaker 3: You bet Nicole, my pleasure. 1924 01:50:14,080 --> 01:50:17,960 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother Knows Death. As a reminder, 1925 01:50:18,160 --> 01:50:21,920 Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a 1926 01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:26,320 Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education. 1927 01:50:27,439 --> 01:50:29,600 Speaker 2: I am not a doctor, and I have not diagnosed 1928 01:50:29,680 --> 01:50:33,320 Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of 1929 01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:38,599 Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social 1930 01:50:38,640 --> 01:50:42,160 Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based 1931 01:50:42,160 --> 01:50:46,080 Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make 1932 01:50:46,320 --> 01:50:51,000 Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember 1933 01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:54,120 Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed 1934 01:50:54,120 --> 01:50:56,800 Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those 1935 01:50:56,840 --> 01:51:00,639 Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having 1936 01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:04,600 Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a 1937 01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:09,000 Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent 1938 01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:13,760 Speaker 2: care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, and 1939 01:51:13,880 --> 01:51:18,400 Speaker 2: subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or 1940 01:51:18,439 --> 01:51:30,639 Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks