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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff of all

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamp and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let's put ourselves in in a situation here. Okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, we're in the podcast chamber right now, it's you,

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Speaker 1: it's me, it's no man in the all the complex

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Speaker 1: equipment that records the sounds that come out of our mouth.

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Speaker 1: And then there's a window covered up by curtain. Now

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Speaker 1: imagine suddenly the curtain blows out and and we're also

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Speaker 1: suddenly we're being sucked out the window as if this

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Speaker 1: is a pressurized aircraft cabin. I don't know why that

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Speaker 1: would happen, but let's assume there's like a you know,

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Speaker 1: a sharknado on the other side. Is King Kong on

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Speaker 1: the other side of this way though, King Kong and

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Speaker 1: a sharknado most likely? Okay, yeah, all right, got it

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Speaker 1: in my head. Go on, Okay, So how do we react?

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Speaker 1: How do we react to look to set sudden interruption

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Speaker 1: of normal life? Normalcy is quite literally going out the window,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly life has become this just complete struggle for

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Speaker 1: survival and every second counts. Okay, well, I think we

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Speaker 1: have three options here. One is that you could just

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Speaker 1: shriek and freak out right and not really do yourself

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Speaker 1: any sort of service here, always a good option, Okay.

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Speaker 1: The second thing is you could just stare, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of into oblivion as King Kong takes you into

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Speaker 1: his clutches and stuffs you into his mouth. Just stare

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Speaker 1: and not do anything. Okay, Well, at least I'm not

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Speaker 1: gonna look foolish. Okay. The third thing is you can

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Speaker 1: try to save yourself. You could try to flee from

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Speaker 1: the situation in some way as you're getting sucked out,

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Speaker 1: maybe you hold onto something that the window casing, and

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Speaker 1: you try to crawl back into the room and then

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Speaker 1: escape through the emergency exits. And what's interesting is when

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Speaker 1: you when you think of these three possibilities. Yes, and

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Speaker 1: when we can all put we all certainly will go

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Speaker 1: through these scenarios in our own head. Maybe not the

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Speaker 1: King Sharknado combination one, but we we inevitably think about

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Speaker 1: what am I gonna do in disaster strikes, and we

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Speaker 1: imagine ourselves typically going through that to survivalist instinct we

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Speaker 1: imagine ourselves doing the thing that logically would need to

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Speaker 1: be done to survive. But does it shake out that way?

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Speaker 1: I mean it does in the movies. Well, all of

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Speaker 1: us think, of course, we would hold onto the window

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Speaker 1: frame and we would somehow escape the clutches of King

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Speaker 1: Kong and Sharknado. But this is according to Esther ingliss Arkel,

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Speaker 1: she's writing for I oh nine. She says about seventy

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Speaker 1: percent of people in a disaster exhibit this sort of

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Speaker 1: unusual Ladi da behavior, just staring into a blivion ten

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Speaker 1: to fent, freak out in another ten to fent, react

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Speaker 1: to the situation accordingly, efficiently, and orderly, and they do

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Speaker 1: the thing they're supposed to do so, in other words,

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Speaker 1: they get the hell out of dodge. And that is

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Speaker 1: crazy because you just you we're programmed, especially by movies

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Speaker 1: and disaster movies, to to to not see things breaking

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Speaker 1: down along along the percentage lines like that. The image

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Speaker 1: that always comes back to me is the original Blob movie,

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Speaker 1: The Blob Steve McQueen. There's a scene where the Blob

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Speaker 1: has made its way. You know, it's rather grown at

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Speaker 1: this point. You know, the blob right big jelly creature

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Speaker 1: that dissolves people, makes its way into a movie theater,

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Speaker 1: crowded movie theater, and then all hell breaks loose and

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Speaker 1: there's this wonderful scene of everyone just rushing out of

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Speaker 1: that movie theater. And then there's a fabulous scene after that,

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Speaker 1: the blob oozing out of the theater doors and the

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Speaker 1: crowd just running in front of it like everybody knows

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Speaker 1: what's up. It's all right, there's a there's a blob.

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Speaker 1: We're all going to freak out, We're all gonna run,

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Speaker 1: and you can you can view that freaking out and

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Speaker 1: running as you know that as either just completely freaking

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Speaker 1: out and making a run for or doing the logical thing.

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Speaker 1: But either way, it doesn't line up with these percentage

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Speaker 1: points that we're looking at, because seventy of them would

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Speaker 1: be just setting there being are we supposed to? This

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Speaker 1: is being the movies over? Should I sit there? Hey? Hey,

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Speaker 1: you do you know if the movie is over, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a refund on this. And meanwhile, you do

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Speaker 1: just just get your flesh dissolved off of you by

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Speaker 1: a monster. All right, Well, let me give you a

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Speaker 1: real life example of that. That's example, well one that

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Speaker 1: actually happened for real, the not on a film. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the best known examples of this sort

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Speaker 1: of emergency situation in which people gravitate towards what is

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Speaker 1: called a normalcy bias. And we'll talk more about that

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Speaker 1: in a moment, but in this scenario, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: two planes that collided on a runway in the Canary

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Speaker 1: Islands nine and one of the survivors, Paul Heck, he

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Speaker 1: grabbed his unresponsive wife who just sat there, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of saying what what's going on? And what they

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Speaker 1: did is they got, of course the hell out of

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Speaker 1: dodge and on the way is they are passing other passengers,

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Speaker 1: they're noticing people who are just sitting there, staring straight ahead,

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Speaker 1: not doing anything. They're uninjured people. And what happened is

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Speaker 1: that they only had sixty seconds to leave that plane

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Speaker 1: before it was engulfed in flames. And it was a huge,

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Speaker 1: huge fatality for that flight. A lot of people did

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Speaker 1: not get out of it. It and so a lot

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Speaker 1: of emergency management personnel look at that case is why

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Speaker 1: why do those people who are uninjured sit on that

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Speaker 1: plane and do nothing? Is this um because they were unprepared?

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Speaker 1: Is this some sort of instinct in humans or is

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Speaker 1: there something else going on here? And that's what we're

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Speaker 1: really going to try to get at the heart of today. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so a normal cy bias is what it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: It's a bias towards thinking everything's okay, minimizing with the

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Speaker 1: actual risk, and thinking must not be that big of

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Speaker 1: a deal. We've all had this, uh, certainly as you

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Speaker 1: just observe your environment around us. I mean there are

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Speaker 1: times where you freak out and you say, oh, the

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Speaker 1: shady person on the street, I better up to no good.

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Speaker 1: But then a little reason creeps in and you're like, well, there,

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Speaker 1: it's probably okay. I'm going to air on the side

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Speaker 1: of just assuming everything is completely normal. Yeah. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we really sometimes underestimate things, and we'll talk more about

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Speaker 1: why we do that, but I wanted to say that

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Speaker 1: According to a National Institute of Standards and Technology study,

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Speaker 1: which was drawn from the interviews with nearly nine dred

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Speaker 1: survive verse of nine eleven, they said that the people

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Speaker 1: who made it out of the World Trade Center waited

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Speaker 1: an average of six minutes before leaving their desks. So

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here is this idea that you

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Speaker 1: are looking at the odds, You're plane the odds because really,

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Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, we don't have really

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Speaker 1: that many, um real dangers in front of us, and

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Speaker 1: we have imagined dangers that we do with all the time.

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Speaker 1: So it's like a matter of sort of suessing those out. Well. Like,

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Speaker 1: I think about this every time I board a plane,

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Speaker 1: because on one hand, I have every disaster movie I've

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Speaker 1: ever seen, you know, plane rex happening all the time,

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Speaker 1: and those because the story of someone getting on an

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Speaker 1: airplane is generally only interesting if there's a creature on

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Speaker 1: the wing of the plane where it crashes into a mountain.

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Speaker 1: Then people have to eat each other. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: need to drum. But then I start breaking it down

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Speaker 1: and I think, I think of I think of football,

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Speaker 1: which I almost never do, but I think, how many

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Speaker 1: times have I ever heard on the news, Oh, an

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Speaker 1: entire football team was lost in a plane crash today,

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Speaker 1: or they can't have this football game because half the

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Speaker 1: team went down. Um. You know cases like this that

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Speaker 1: remind me that, hey, these are people that fly around

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Speaker 1: all the time, Um, why do I not hear of them?

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Speaker 1: Parash it? Yeah, I mean that takes an enormous amount

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Speaker 1: of mental energy in the first place for some of

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Speaker 1: us to board that plane and convince ourselves that it's

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Speaker 1: a good idea to get into this this metal hole

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Speaker 1: that's just flinging itself through time and space, and and

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Speaker 1: that it's going to all turn out okay. Right. In

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Speaker 1: my theory about the seats, I think the reason that

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Speaker 1: the seats are so uncomfortable and seemed to be designed

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Speaker 1: to to to make you uncomfortable is so that you

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Speaker 1: end up focusing on the immediate discomfort of having to

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Speaker 1: cram yourself into that small space and deal with all

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Speaker 1: these people around you, rather than the actual uh potential

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Speaker 1: of crashing into a mountain. Right. So you have a

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Speaker 1: couple of different elements going on there. You have all

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Speaker 1: this this uh, the stories that you've told yourself that

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Speaker 1: allows you to get on the plane in the first place.

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Speaker 1: You have distraction, and then when a real emergency happens,

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Speaker 1: you have something called milling, which is part of that

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Speaker 1: playing the odds process, right, because milling is this idea

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Speaker 1: that people will check in with one another before taking action, saying,

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Speaker 1: is this really a dangerous situation? Are we okay? Did

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Speaker 1: you did you hear something is that. Does that the

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Speaker 1: engine sound weird to you? Did you see that creature

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Speaker 1: on the wing of the plane, because I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: that's real. Uh. And what's interesting about this this million

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Speaker 1: is that we're not On one hand, it is, yes,

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Speaker 1: an attempt to get the best information. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to jump to conclusions, and you you want to make

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Speaker 1: sure you get the best possible information from a few

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Speaker 1: different people. But on the other hand, you also want

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Speaker 1: to get specific information. You you keep you want to

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Speaker 1: keep asking the question, do you get the answer that

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Speaker 1: feels right, the answer that feeds more comforting. You want

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Speaker 1: somebody to tell you, Oh, it's no big deal. Engines

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Speaker 1: make that kind of noise. The creatures live on the

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Speaker 1: wing of the plane. It's just how it works. Here's

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Speaker 1: a kind of a rote example. But if you've ever

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Speaker 1: been um in an area where there was a tornado warning,

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Speaker 1: have you ever called someone up and said, Hey, what's

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Speaker 1: the weather like over there? Or I mean, have you

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Speaker 1: ever called up a you know, a friend or a

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Speaker 1: family member and said, I like, tornado is coming my way.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm terrified of tornadoes, So I if I have

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Speaker 1: any reason to believe they're in the area. Then I well,

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Speaker 1: I head to the basement if there's a basement, and

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Speaker 1: if not, I guess I just freeze up and wait

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Speaker 1: for death. So but you batten down the hatches, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, not to go look out the window because

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Speaker 1: it could blast in on me and kill me. Well,

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Speaker 1: from that National Institute of Standards and Technology study, another

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Speaker 1: finding was that on none elevidently, seventy of survivors spoke

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Speaker 1: with other people before trying to leave. The study shows

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Speaker 1: so again it's this Milling idea that sometimes it's not

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Speaker 1: just sitting there in disbelief in doing nothing. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: just trying to collect data, even in the face of

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Speaker 1: really significant data in front of you, saying this is

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary situation. You should do something about it. Now. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean we're social animals, you know, so it makes

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Speaker 1: sense that we would reach out for these answers. Um

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Speaker 1: And you see this all the time with with other

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Speaker 1: threats to less concrete threats where people end up just

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Speaker 1: going and go online and to find out let me

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Speaker 1: feed this fear or let me put out put out

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Speaker 1: the fires of this fear with enough you know, links

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Speaker 1: from this website or another. Well, I think that's the

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Speaker 1: curse of knowledge, right, We all the time are getting

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Speaker 1: sorts of messages, warning messages, especially here in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Other countries make fun of us for this, But you

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Speaker 1: could have a pillow and on that pillow there's going

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Speaker 1: to be some sort of warning on there that says,

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Speaker 1: you know, please don't suffocate yourself. Just because of all

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Speaker 1: the legal battles we have here in the States. Um

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Speaker 1: So at some point those messages just we they recede

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Speaker 1: into the background because there are so many of them

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Speaker 1: to filter through. And again, there are so many real

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Speaker 1: threats versus perceived threats that the mind does want to

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Speaker 1: do a little bit of milling to figure out what's what. Yeah, like,

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Speaker 1: is this is this? Is this a toy that is

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Speaker 1: actually inappropriate for my child that will actually kill him?

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Speaker 1: Or is this just one of those situations where it's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of legal mambo jumbo because you could conceivably

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Speaker 1: strangle yourself with a toy horse Probably not gonna happen,

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Speaker 1: But lithium ion batteries keep them away from kids. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's my p s A for this podcast, because we

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Speaker 1: get out juice stuff on them. No, no, it's it's horrible,

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Speaker 1: for they're tiny, you know, the size of quarter, and

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Speaker 1: it can do horrible that Actually children can die from

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Speaker 1: ingesting them to keep them away half. Indeed, all right,

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Speaker 1: let's take a quick break, and when we get back,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about survival psychology in this idea

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Speaker 1: of psychogenic death. All right, we're back. So is there

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Speaker 1: a positive spin here to those just milling about? There

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Speaker 1: is and and And to understand the positive you have

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Speaker 1: to remind yourself again, Seventy people of the people are

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Speaker 1: just setting there, are going, hey, is there something weird?

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Speaker 1: Is there's something wrong? Ten percent are in action mode,

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Speaker 1: no what to do? That's ten, and the other ten

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Speaker 1: to fifteen percent are freaking the heck out. One positive

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Speaker 1: is that all of those calm people who don't know

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Speaker 1: what's up and are just asking and milling uh and

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Speaker 1: and and have that normalusly bias fully engaged, they have

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Speaker 1: a calming effect on the freakouts. That's true. And some

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Speaker 1: people would argue that it makes it easier for that

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Speaker 1: ten to to actually exit even faster, because well, if

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Speaker 1: nobody's clogging the stairwells or other exit strategies, then you

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Speaker 1: can zip through there pretty quickly. Yeah. But then that

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Speaker 1: that's the downside as well, is that those ten percent

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Speaker 1: who realize what needs to happen, we need to get

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Speaker 1: off of this plane before we're all consumed by fire,

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Speaker 1: they could actually have their progress um um impeded by

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Speaker 1: the individuals who are just setting there asking what's up.

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Speaker 1: There's saying is there's something wrong, is there's something on

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Speaker 1: the matter, and they're saying, no, you need to get

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Speaker 1: out of my way, or and you need to run

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Speaker 1: for it too, because we have to survive. The ideal

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Speaker 1: situation is that that ten percent would actually get people

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Speaker 1: sort of you know, a fire under the artist and say, okay,

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Speaker 1: I see that person in action, I will now follow suit.

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Speaker 1: And we have seen this over and over again in

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Speaker 1: other emergency scenarios, particularly in UM being the world trade

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Speaker 1: centers and not eleven attacks. So UM I wanted to

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Speaker 1: just shift a little bit and go into survival psychology

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Speaker 1: and highlight someone named John Leech. He's a survivor psychologist,

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Speaker 1: and he says that we need to reframe the question

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Speaker 1: of survival and quit sort of looking at these examples

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Speaker 1: of the survivor or not just as they're innately courageous

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Speaker 1: and they have this robust will to live. But rather

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Speaker 1: we should be looking at the people who do not

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Speaker 1: make it and asking the question, why do people die

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Speaker 1: when they don't need to. Yeah, particularly gets into this

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Speaker 1: idea of psychogenic death, which is a really snazzy term,

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Speaker 1: and it refers to a biological process that takes place

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Speaker 1: as in natural death, but it's triggered at a premature

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Speaker 1: stage in the person's life, when they're under all this script.

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Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of this idea of al right,

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Speaker 1: plane crashes and you have some people who have that

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Speaker 1: strong will to survive, they're a survivor type, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: make it. But then there are people who just shut down.

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Speaker 1: They die within the first first one or one to

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Speaker 1: three days. And and why is that. It's like, it's

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Speaker 1: not like they had a grievous injuries, they just shut down. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: He's got all sorts of examples that he points to.

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Speaker 1: He talks about light aircraft crash and Sierra Nevada, and

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Speaker 1: he says that of the three people on board, one

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Speaker 1: passenger was trapped in the wreckage, so obviously that person

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Speaker 1: couldn't do anything. Another person had no more than superficial bruising.

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Speaker 1: But then you have the pilot who had injuries to

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Speaker 1: his arm, ankle and ribs. And it was actually the

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Speaker 1: pilot who left the scene and for eleven days he

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Speaker 1: walked and he hiked through the snow covered mountains before

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Speaker 1: reaching a road and getting help. Now, after that eleven days,

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Speaker 1: both the person who had just the superficial wounds and

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Speaker 1: the person of course who was trapped in the wreckage

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Speaker 1: they died. But the question was why did the person

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Speaker 1: with just the minimal wounds perish when he had acts

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Speaker 1: us to water in food and shelter and could have

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Speaker 1: made a fire. So does it come down to this like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're just prepackaged with courage and know how. Uh No,

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Speaker 1: According to Leach, it all has to do with the

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Speaker 1: way that you're processing that information and in some cases

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Speaker 1: your past experiences. Yeah. And he makes a strong argument

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Speaker 1: too that it's it's you know, we tend to think

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Speaker 1: of you know, stress comes our way, threat comes our way,

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Speaker 1: and it's fight or flight, right, Am I gonna punch

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Speaker 1: it in the face or turntail and run? And he's

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Speaker 1: arguing that it's really more than this situation of fight,

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Speaker 1: flight or freeze? Am I going to punch it in

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Speaker 1: the face. Am I going to run away from it?

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Speaker 1: Or am I just gonna stand there and let it

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Speaker 1: take me? Yeah, Because he's saying that there's a lot

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Speaker 1: to take in when a trauma happens. He's saying there's

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Speaker 1: pre impact, impact, recovery, rescue, and post trauma. And he

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Speaker 1: said that most people have a certain cognitive load that

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Speaker 1: were that that sort of normalized to our day to

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Speaker 1: day operations. Right, We've talked about called it to load,

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Speaker 1: this idea that you have just finite resources of energy

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Speaker 1: for your brain to operate on. And so he's saying

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Speaker 1: that if you have this extrnsic condition bringing with it

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Speaker 1: all sorts of new data in a new environment, it's

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Speaker 1: gonna crash your brain. So what he said is that

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Speaker 1: what happens is that in the first three days, particularly

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the end of this this situation in

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Speaker 1: Sierra Nevada Mountains, um that those first three days were

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Speaker 1: really important to the survival of the people who were

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Speaker 1: still alive, because that's when the executive functions will fritz out,

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Speaker 1: and when that happens, working memory that stops and you

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Speaker 1: have you know, at selective attention, disturbed and that becomes

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Speaker 1: really important because that selective attention is what allows you

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Speaker 1: to really focus on what matters in Maelstrom. Right, if

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Speaker 1: you've got you for you're on a plane and smoke

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Speaker 1: is rolling in and people are screaming or just sitting there,

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Speaker 1: you still have a situation that is new to you,

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Speaker 1: and you have to figure out what's important here? Now,

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Speaker 1: what's happening when people freeze up? What are we talking

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Speaker 1: about here? Um? Now? Leach refers to this as cognitive paralysis,

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Speaker 1: So we're talking complete in action. We're talking uh, just

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Speaker 1: setting there, uh, not not fighting, not flighting, just just

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Speaker 1: shutting down completely. And he does say that you can

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Speaker 1: actually recover from this, But what becomes so important is

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Speaker 1: that if you if you can't find a way out

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Speaker 1: of that, if you can't find some sort of clarity

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Speaker 1: in there and get back to your working memory, well

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Speaker 1: then it's just gonna usually have cognitive dysfunction, which is

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Speaker 1: probably what happened to the survivor in the plane crash

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Speaker 1: who for eleven days sat there. Is perhaps after the

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Speaker 1: third day that his brain just said, forget it, We're

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Speaker 1: gonna shut this down. And that's what's so interesting about

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Speaker 1: that idea of psychogenic death that your brain could fold

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Speaker 1: up in on itself and say, Okay, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: draw the covers here. Yeah. Yeah, And and we and again,

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Speaker 1: we we all think we're going to be the survivor type.

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Speaker 1: We all kind of even if we're we have a

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Speaker 1: pretty realistic understanding of our skills. Like if I crashed

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Speaker 1: in a plane in the mountain, I'd have to realize, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm probably not going to fashion a bow and arrow

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Speaker 1: and hunt a grizzly bear or anything like that. But

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Speaker 1: I like to think that I'll at least have, you know,

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Speaker 1: the clarity of mind enough to to sort of look

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Speaker 1: around and realize what my options are. But maybe that's

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Speaker 1: not gonna be the kicks. Maybe I'm going to freak

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Speaker 1: the heck out, or I'm just gonna freeze. So the

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Speaker 1: thing that makes the difference here is really the ability

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Speaker 1: to call up patterns again, that selective memory, or not

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Speaker 1: just the working memory, but that selective attention and in

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Speaker 1: some ways training yourself for for the emergency at hand.

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Speaker 1: And when you look at Paul Heck and that example

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Speaker 1: of the two planes colliding, it turns out that he

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Speaker 1: as a child was involved in a theater fire, and

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Speaker 1: since then he had always made sure to check exits

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Speaker 1: no matter where he was. In fact, when he boarded

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Speaker 1: the plane with his wife, he pointed out to his wife, Hey, look,

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Speaker 1: these are the emergency exits. And so the idea is

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Speaker 1: that when the plane crash occurred, he wasn't as um

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Speaker 1: reliant on trying to piece together new information. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he could go to that blueprint that he already had

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Speaker 1: stored in his brain and act quickly. So in some ways,

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Speaker 1: you can look at the survivors and say, Okay, it

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Speaker 1: may be that they're prepared to some extent, or they've

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Speaker 1: had some sort of life experience that has told them

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Speaker 1: that they should be more aware of their environment and

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Speaker 1: ready to act on it, and are subconsciously storing away

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Speaker 1: information that could help them. That's interesting. Yeah, the the

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Speaker 1: idea of sort of a domestic animal versus a wild

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Speaker 1: animal suddenly put in a situation of extreme danger. One

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Speaker 1: has never had to really deal with threats and is

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Speaker 1: completely overwhelmed by the predator in smits. The other has

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Speaker 1: always lived in the raw and therefore is more prepared

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Speaker 1: to act appropriately in the face of danger. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: when I was reading about Paul hex account. I thought

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Speaker 1: this sounds like my dad, and my dad was actually

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Speaker 1: in special ops in Vietnam, and so in some ways

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Speaker 1: he has had a lot of the survival training. But

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Speaker 1: this is a guy my dad who every time he

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Speaker 1: goes into a hotel will go and look at the

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Speaker 1: map of the hotel that's pasted on the back of

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Speaker 1: the door in the hotel room, look at the emergency exits,

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Speaker 1: and then he will leave the room and count the

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Speaker 1: number of doors it takes to get the emergency exit.

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Speaker 1: So he has that information in his mind. And you know,

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Speaker 1: he didn't train my brother and I to do the

402
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Speaker 1: same thing, but in a way, we subconsciously saw how

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Speaker 1: he was behaving. And both my brother and I, when

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Speaker 1: we enter a room, most likely we are going to

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Speaker 1: take the seat that is facing the door so we

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Speaker 1: can have a bead on the door to exit. And

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Speaker 1: it's weird way. We've talked about this before, so there

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Speaker 1: may be something to that. Okay, So in the face

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Speaker 1: of appropriate training and or real life experience, you're you're

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Speaker 1: likely to be in a better position to act appropriately

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Speaker 1: in the face of the threat. Right. It's no guarantee,

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Speaker 1: but it helps, right, Yeah, case in point. If I

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Speaker 1: may draw another example from science fiction. Um in the

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Speaker 1: movie Aliens, the mission there into the colony, it went bad,

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Speaker 1: and what happened. You had Private Hudson freaked out. He

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Speaker 1: was definitely in that ten of the freak out, We're

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Speaker 1: all gonna die game over. You had Lieutenant Gorman. He

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Speaker 1: was definitely in that se though, where he was just

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Speaker 1: he you know, he froze up, froze up, just was

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Speaker 1: was asking questions and was of no use. But then

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Speaker 1: you had meanwhile, you had Hicks and Ripley. They acted

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Speaker 1: responsibly and they made it to the end of the movie.

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Speaker 1: There you go. So all right, now you know we're

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Speaker 1: focusing on the survivors, which is what we weren't cointd.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna focus more on and in order to do that,

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Speaker 1: you really have to look at animals in this reflexive

427
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Speaker 1: ability to go into tonic immobility or fantatosis, which is

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Speaker 1: something that we talked about last week. Yeah, Like the

429
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: basic idea here is you have a bunch of ducks.

430
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,440
Speaker 1: The foxes move in attack the ducks, and what do

431
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 1: the ducks do a number of the ducks they just

432
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: freeze up. They play dead if you will. But it's

433
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 1: not a conscious act of playing dead. It's it's it's

434
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,640
Speaker 1: it's just it kicks in. It's a it's involuntary. They're

435
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 1: just they're they're just laying there acting dead for all

436
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: intents and purposes. The foxes are mouthing them, dragging them

437
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: off to store their bodies for later, and and this

438
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 1: allows them the possibility to escape later on, though it's

439
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: not a very high possibility, but apparently they stand a

440
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 1: better chance playing dead and escaping than you know, standing

441
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 1: up and fighting against the foxes. Right, And that's that

442
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 1: example of more of what is a pre meditative response,

443
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: at least we think in nature, But there are other

444
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 1: examples that seem to be reflexive. And when I think

445
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: about that, I think about the great white, which can

446
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: enter that tonic immobility state and basically take the vital

447
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 1: signs down to the studs, whereas something like the fox

448
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 1: or an opossum still has its metabolic rate at its

449
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: normal rate and doesn't off it. Yeah, and you also

450
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: see it in a number of farm animals to where

451
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 1: actual um, you know, vet's in an animal husbandry where

452
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: it's useful to exploit this because you know that if

453
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 1: you kind of handle the animal the right way, it's

454
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,200
Speaker 1: gonna freeze up, and it's going to be very calm

455
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: and still, and it's essentially give up and submit to

456
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 1: your handling. So in this sense, could humans that could

457
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: they be entering into what would be a sort of

458
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:26,000
Speaker 1: reflective state of of tonic immobility. And in order to

459
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: answer this question about whether or not that's exists in animals,

460
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 1: we're gonna look at a study called Biological Evidence from

461
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: Victims of Traumatic Stress and this was actually published in

462
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: Biological Psychology by Alien and Vulcan. You have the Brazilian

463
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 1: study from two thousand eleven, and uh, it's it's pretty interesting.

464
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 1: They looked at thirty three trauma survivors, fifteen women, including

465
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: eighteen with the diagnosis of post traumatic stress disorder. Now

466
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: what happened to this is they were they were all

467
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 1: asked to describe the ordeals that they went through in detail,

468
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: and then that you know that they took these accounts

469
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,680
Speaker 1: and they transcribed them into basically sixty second audio narrative,

470
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: which is in a male voice presented in a second

471
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: person presentense form, so kind of like role playing. You're

472
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: walking down the street, there's a shadow that sort of thing,

473
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: all right, So each participants account is been played back

474
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: for them over headphones while they stand on a platform

475
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: that records body sway. Their heart rates also monitored during

476
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: this and afterwards, they asked questions about how they felt

477
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: as they listened to this, to this recording, to this, uh, this,

478
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 1: this transcribed account of their incident. And what's interested with

479
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: the participants who reported a strong sense of being paralyzed, frozen,

480
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: unable to move her scream, they tended to show less

481
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: body sway, higher heart rate, and less heart rate veriability. Yeah,

482
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 1: and this was true across both PTSD and non PTSD patients,

483
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: but it was the PTSD patients who were more likely

484
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 1: to report feelings of paralysis while listening to these recordings

485
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: of their ordeals. And so the idea is that those

486
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: who suffered a trauma, in particular rape victims, may have

487
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: reflexively entered into a state of tonic immobility, hinting that

488
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: this kind of frozen state that we see in animals

489
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: happens in humans when we're faced with a life or

490
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: death situation. Yeah, that's some some tough stuff to think about.

491
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's really really some kind of dark

492
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: material to process. It really is, and I think that

493
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: it gives us a much more nuanced look at how

494
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: we're react in these situations, because a lot of us say, oh,

495
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 1: I'm the wolf in this situation and you're the sheep

496
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: or the sheep dog. And it's not that black and white, um,

497
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: as we know any The ways in which our brain

498
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: operate depend on the context, that path depends on past experience, UM.

499
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: And so you know, you're not maybe always going to

500
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: be the wolf or the sheep dog in a situation. Yeah. Yeah.

501
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 1: I think one of the big overall take homes from

502
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: all of this is just a more realistic understanding of

503
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: how humans um react to threat, react to stress, and

504
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: and what we can do, uh, you know, in in

505
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 1: a reasonable sense to prepare for bad times. And of

506
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: course it all takes a little bit of preparation or

507
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: a lot, depending on the situation, and then just kind

508
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: of calming the mind, because otherwise you're gonna be Chess

509
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: Tannembomb in the Royal Tannembombs, taking your family through an

510
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: endless fire, drill your entire life, trying to prepare and

511
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 1: not living actually in the moment. But the fire drill

512
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: is a great example, you know, and they stress you know,

513
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 1: have have an emergency plan for your household. It doesn't

514
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: necessarily mean you're going through the fire drill every night,

515
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 1: but but having like a general idea like, hey, if

516
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: there's something weird, like if you know, if something happens

517
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: to the house, where's where's the point where we meet up?

518
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 1: You know, if there's if if if the smoke detector

519
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: goes off, you know, what do we do? What what

520
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: is the what is the appropriate response? And you maybe

521
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: even rehearse that to a certain extent. Of course, the

522
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: closest thing that comes to mind with that, outside of

523
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: just you know, workplace fire drill, school fire drill settings,

524
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: is that when I was I think junior high, that

525
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: was when I had that definitely fear of being abducted

526
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: by aliens, and I would run the escape scenario over

527
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: my head that if I if they come into my room,

528
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: how am I going to escape? How close am eight

529
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: of the door? Uh? And and how close am eight

530
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: of the window? You, sir, probably would have avoided being

531
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: abducted by an alien improbed, I hope. So, But then

532
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: again that's the trap we all fall into right. We

533
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: think we're gonna we're gonna be the one to run

534
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: away from the alien, but are just gonna lay there

535
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,640
Speaker 1: and take it. Well, you know, we have talked about

536
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: the whole body paralysis that happens when people think that

537
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: they're getting alien or abducted by aliens. Um, I will

538
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: tell you one thing. The next time our office building

539
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: has a fire drill, I will not, as I usually do,

540
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: skip out twenty minutes early and go get a sandwich

541
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: and avoid the whole ordeal. I am going to line

542
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: up with everybody and go down those endless flights of

543
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: stairs again and again. I'm not gonna do that. I'm

544
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: going to go for the sandwich. Alright. It is far

545
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: more effective. And really that puts me, I think in

546
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: the tent ten to fifteen percent of people who say, oh,

547
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a fire drill, I'm gonna be proactive

548
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: about this and not be here for it. And then

549
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: the other ten of fifteen percent that freak out and

550
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: they just start ripping off their clothes and running around. Yeah,

551
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: you never see that during the fire drills here. But

552
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: but he doesn't remind me of the there was no

553
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: no I have not been again, I'm always getting the

554
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: sandwich st you miss out, my friend. Yeah, but it

555
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: reminds me of that episode of the Office where I

556
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 1: think there was it was a fire drill situation where

557
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: everyone just goes completely baddy and you know, they're they're

558
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: they're knocking stuff over there, running around like crazy and

559
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: uh and again that was probably uh, that was probably

560
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 1: an exaggeration as well, because they're they're putting something that

561
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: would have been tend to fifteen percent of people freaking

562
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: out and extrapolating it to everyone. Well, the question is

563
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: if media began to you know, report it in that

564
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: way via our stories that we tell, you know, film

565
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: books of this sevent normalcy bias, would we begin to

566
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: change or be hevi we're more aware of this. That's interesting.

567
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: You know, I just watched the new trailer for the

568
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: new Godzilla movie and and it would be interest I'm

569
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: sure they're not gonna do it, but what if this

570
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: new Godzilla movie showed a realistic interpretation in which seventy

571
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: of the people just sat there and we're like, hey,

572
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: did you hit? Is there a giant lizard outside? Did you?

573
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: Is this on the news that's on it's on MSNBC.

574
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: Is it also on Fox News? We should check out

575
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: CNN to to see what CNN is reporting, and it

576
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 1: would be less traumatics. Yeah, this is They're not gonna

577
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: let us direct Godzilla too. No. No, someone somewhere just

578
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: tip their cigar into nash Ria and said, forget those kids,

579
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: forget him, forget them all right, So there you go,

580
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: look at the world of normalcy bias and psychogenic death.

581
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: Let's call the robot over here and do a quick

582
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: listener mail. Do it all right? This one comes to

583
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 1: us from Hannah. Hannah writes in and says, good and

584
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 1: talk Julian Robert. Back in February two thousand twelve, you

585
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: did an episode about rat kings. Uh, and I just

586
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: mentioned rat kings in this episode, so this is uh,

587
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 1: this is this is good. Just I'm relatively new to

588
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: the podcast and I just listened to that episode. I

589
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: thought you'd be interested to know about something that happened

590
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: in June two thousand thirteen in Germany, hence the greeting

591
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: A squirrel king was found. This was a group of

592
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: baby gray squirrels that had gotten stuck together at the

593
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: tails by tree sap that had gotten into their nest.

594
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: They were successfully separated by veterinarians. One can assume, considering

595
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: the massive population of squirrels in the world, that this

596
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: has happened to other leaders of squirrels who weren't lucky

597
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: enough to be aided by humans. Happy holidays, Hannah in Oakland.

598
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: Well there you go. All right, Um, that's terrifying to

599
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: think of, especially when I look at all of the

600
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: squirrels in my backyard just marauding. Yeah, well, I think

601
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 1: when I when we covered rat kings, I can't remember

602
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: we mentioned it, but I remember running across mentioned in

603
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: our research of a squirrel king. But it may not

604
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: have made it into the podcast because really, you already

605
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: talking about about rat That's enough cryptozoological mumbo jumbo or

606
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: not to to discuss in one podcast without getting into

607
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: the squirrels. But but the squirrel example brought up here

608
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: is very interesting and maybe a little less frightening, perhaps

609
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: perhaps slightly less. I mean, if if the rat king

610
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: is a portent of death and disease and medieval plague

611
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: striking down your city, what does the squirrel king represent?

612
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: Home values are gonna dip? I don't know, it just

613
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like it would be near as the Diers.

614
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: I'm still thinking about it. Hey, I wanted to mention

615
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: that before we started podcasting, our video producer, Tyler came

616
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: in here and he filmed us chit chatting, and that's

617
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: when we were actually talking about the squirrel King. So

618
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: if you guys want to excuse me, the rat King. So,

619
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: if you guys want to check that out, make sure

620
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: to go to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com

621
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: because no doubt the video is hanging out there. Um.

622
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: I have one quick, super quick email that came through.

623
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: This is from Jennifer and the subject line with sasquatch

624
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: and it's simply said, spirit totem. Only those meant to

625
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 1: see will see be well. Sounds good to me. I know,

626
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: I loved it. Thank you. Cryptic and delightful and I'm

627
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: not sure if that is in jest or not, but

628
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It's pretty great either way. All right,

629
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: on that note, let's go and close it out. Hey,

630
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us, You want

631
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: to check out this video that Julie mentioned of us

632
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 1: prepping for this episode and just getting comfortable on our chairs.

633
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: You want to listen to all the podcast episodes in

634
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: the past, such as that rat King episode, such as

635
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: the episodes to do with sleep paralysis, all of them.

636
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: They are available at stuff to blow your mind dot com,

637
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: along with our blog post and just about anything we're doing,

638
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: as well as links out to our social media accounts

639
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter, Facebook, Tumbler, Google Plus, on YouTube where mind

640
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: Stuff Show go. Check all those things out if you.

641
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: If one of those is your favorite social media side,

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Speaker 1: follow us uh and we'll try and share stuff with you. Yeah,

643
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Speaker 1: and if you would like to share some of your

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Speaker 1: thoughts with us, you can do so. Blow the mind

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Speaker 1: at discovery dot com for more on this and thousands

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Speaker 1: Could you Indu? Could you into the pla