WEBVTT - More Than 165 Cases Are Shaping the Election 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.240 It's less than three weeks before election day, but courts 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.400 have already started shaping the contours of the presidential election, 0:00:18.680 --> 0:00:22.960 as lawsuits challenge everything from who can vote and how 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.599 they cast their ballots, to which votes count and how 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.680 the winner is decided. A Bloomberg analysis has identified at 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.600 least one hundred and sixty five lawsuits filed in thirty 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.480 seven states in the last two years that challenge every 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.239 facet of the presidential contest, and more than half of 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.160 these cases have been filed in the seven states critical 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:53.440 for an electoral college victory Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:57.440 and Wisconsin. Joining me is Zoe Tillman, Bloomberg senior legal 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:01.040 reporter who's crunched the numbers for her Big Take story. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.759 Zoe tell us a little about the process of identifying 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.280 these lawsuits and categorizing them. 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:10.559 So you know, I always want to start by making 0:01:10.680 --> 0:01:13.920 clear that you know, this is by no means the 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.360 most comprehensive list of every single case related to the 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.040 election filed in the past two years. What we wanted 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:23.479 to do was come up with sort of a really 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:27.000 you know, comprehensive snapshot of what the landscape looks like. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:29.640 So to do that, we used a couple of different sources, 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:34.400 the first just being searches of federal court state court databases, 0:01:35.080 --> 0:01:38.160 doing keyword searches for parties that we knew we were 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:42.680 interested in, like the Republican National Committee, the Democratic National Committee, 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:48.800 different state election boards, using databases that the RNC has 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:52.440 put together of cases if interested in, a site called 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.440 Democracy Docket, which is founded by Mark Elias, who's known 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.520 as sort of a democratic election super lawyer. And then 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.240 you know, tapping into advocacy groups that are the typical 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.400 filers in these cases to make sure we were capturing 0:02:07.640 --> 0:02:10.160 the work that they're doing. So it was you know, 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:13.880 trying to cast as wide a net as possible in 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.240 state and federal courts to find these cases. You know, 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:19.600 what we found for the you know, the list of 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:23.440 one hundred and sixty five that we settled on was 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.520 they were in thirty seven states, but sort of unsurprisingly, 0:02:27.919 --> 0:02:31.520 more than half of them were concentrated in the states 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.760 where the polls have you know, become close, the seven 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:37.280 swing states that really made the difference in twenty twenty, 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:38.720 did you. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:42.720 Look at which side is filing more suits? I know 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.160 you said that the Republican National Committee launched what it 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:50.239 described as a comprehensive and unprecedented legal strategy. 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.040 That's right, we did, so we you know, dove into 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.040 you know, not only who the name plaintiffs were, but 0:02:58.160 --> 0:03:02.560 also what law firms and advocacy groups we're bringing these 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.280 cases on behalf of plaintiffs and whether they have sort 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:10.280 of an identifiable political or ideological affiliation. And in the 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.240 overwhelming number of cases that we looked at, there was 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:16.880 sort of an identifiable affiliation to tag whether it was 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:20.639 a major political party or an advocacy group where we 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.400 could sort of code as sort of light blue and 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:26.440 light red as opposed to the political parties which got 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:28.760 a dark red and a dark blue. And you know, 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.120 it's interesting. I think the numbers showed that Republicans and 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.560 Conservatives have been more active in court, you know, more 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.520 than half, but not overwhelmingly so, and that Democrats and 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.880 left leaning groups have also been quite active ahead of 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:46.640 election day, you know, more typically going in to challenge 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:51.120 state laws or practices that they can tend are putting 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.720 up illegal barriers to voting, whereas Republicans and conservatives have 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:57.040 been going into states that they feel have been too 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:58.400 lax on that front. 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.800 So it's three weeks out and there are still new 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:04.040 cases being filed. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:07.720 There are you know, as issues come up on the ground, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:13.280 we're seeing lawyers at the ready to bring litigation. You know, Interestingly, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.200 we've seen the Justice Department getting involved. That's sort of 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:21.159 the final hour where Alabama and Virginia have announced plans 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.840 to purge names from their voter roles based on suspicions 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.719 that these are not US citizens. And so we've seen 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.520 not only civil rights groups but the Justice Department filing 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:33.800 suit ins recent weeks trying to stop that from happening. So, 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:36.640 you know, I think the later it gets, judges are 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.000 going to be wary of making any changes that aren't 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.600 directly related to a late breaking event. You know, if 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.560 you're going to court to sue over a law that's 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.320 been on the books for two years, I think the 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:52.000 odds of getting jugital intervention now are slim. But you know, 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.960 I think we'll see cases probably being siled up to 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.919 the last minute, and then a whole new surge of 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.920 cases related to what actually happens. 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:01.320 On election day. 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.400 Just let's go back to twenty twenty for a moment. 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:08.720 Tell us about the lawsuits that Trump and his allies filed. 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.200 And I think it's important to go back before election 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.760 day in twenty twenty to understand that too, to remember 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.799 that it was the height of the pandemic in twenty twenty, 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.159 and there was sort of this unprecedented for that time 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:26.200 wave of litigation as states were figuring out on the 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:32.919 fly how to handle voting, as restrictions on contact and distancing, 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:34.880 all of that was being sorted out, so that really, 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:38.960 I think set the stage where after election day there 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.560 was already so much that had been in court, so 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.280 much contested around how voting was happening that year that 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:48.960 Trump and Republicans and Conservatives had already for months been 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:52.760 saying the expansion of absent voting is going to lead 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.040 to fraud, even though there was no evidence of that, 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.800 and that really formed the basis for the I think 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:01.760 it was sixty two some sixty plus US cases that 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:07.400 Trump's campaign and allies of his filed trying to overturn 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:09.640 results in the states that he lost. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:14.200 In your story, you've divided up the cases into different categories. 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.320 So let's go through the categories then, and nearly a 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.960 third of the cases focus on who should be allowed 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:21.640 to vote. 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.599 That's where we've seen more of a concentration of activity 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.320 from Republicans and conservatives. One of the narratives that's emerged 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:33.000 this cycle is this idea that states are failing to 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.599 do enough to purge people from their roles who are 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.200 ineligible either because they're not US citizens, or they've moved away, 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.000 or they've passed away. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:43.640 You know. 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.159 I think it's again worth noting that for things like 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:50.080 non US citizen voting, the research has shown that that's rare, 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.359 very uncommon, but it's sort of a narrative that's cropping 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:56.720 up in these cases. And then on the flip side 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:01.279 of that, we've seen democrats and left leaning groups going 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:05.040 to court to try to defend you know, who is 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.400 on the roles now or expand eligibility. An example of 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:13.240 that would the efforts to re enfranchise people who have 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.040 convictions on their record. And actually just today there was 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:20.200 a big decision out of the Nebraska Supreme Court ruling 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.560 that a state law making it possible for people with 0:07:23.600 --> 0:07:27.040 past felony convictions to vote, that that needs to be enforced. 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.080 And we should just mention states have different laws about 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.120 whether people with past felony convictions can vote. 0:07:33.320 --> 0:07:35.720 That's right, And I think it's sort of a broader 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.960 theme of this, which is that US elections are this 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.480 patchwork of different state rules and laws and practices when 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.520 it comes to elections. So your ability to put your 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.920 absentee ballot in a drop box in one state might 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.600 not be the same process as in another. The laws 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:56.520 are different, state constitutions are different. So you know, I 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.480 think that's always another theme that we see when we 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.560 look at this broad landscape of voting location. 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.800 And you mentioned Alabama where the Republican Secretary of State 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.920 purged three thousand residents that were listed in a federal 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:15.000 database of foreign nationals. Where does that case stand. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.160 Right, So there's a hearing this week where two cases, 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.360 one brought by the Justice Department and one brought by 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:25.360 civil rights and immigrant rights groups. Those have been consolidated 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:28.320 and a judge is hearing arguments and evidence right now 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:32.439 on whether to stop that from happening, at least temporarily 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:33.280 ahead of the election. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.600 So now let's go to how Americans vote. And you 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:42.240 mentioned ballot drop boxes. Republicans have seemed to consistently argued 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:47.000 against ballot drop boxes, saying it leads to fraud. I mean, 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.600 has there been any proof that there's fraud from ballot 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:51.440 drop boxes? 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.120 Certainly not in any kind of widespread way. You know, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.920 I think instances may crop up of problems in a 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.880 given place at a given time, but not in the 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:05.520 sense that it's like proven to be a source of fraud. 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:10.079 And I think we've heard from bipartisan state election officials 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:13.120 that this is a time tested, secure way to vote. 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:17.520 But you know, the pandemic resulted in just an explosion 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.640 of voting by mail and voting absentee and states have 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:24.320 tried to respond to that, and I think in the 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.600 past four years tried to clarify the rules now that 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:31.040 we're not in the same crisis situation, really trying to 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:33.240 hammer out what that's going to look like going forward. 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.000 But there you have still been sits over It's not 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:39.520 so much can there be drop boxes, but it might 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:42.480 be what kind of monitoring does there need to be? 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.760 Does there need to be a physical a person sitting 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.240 there watching when people put their ballots in? Can there 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.080 be cameras? Where can they be placed, they need to 0:09:51.120 --> 0:09:55.040 be had an official government building, all sorts of minutia. 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:56.440 But that make a difference. 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:00.400 And what's happening in Wisconsin, which is of course those 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:04.880 seven swing states. What's happening there over the ballot drop boxes? 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.800 I Muisconsin was a really fascinating example where a few 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.400 years ago the state Supreme Court had ruled that drop 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:17.920 boxes were not allowed under the state's constitution and state laws. 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.839 And then there was an election, the ideological balance of 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.840 the state Supreme Court changed, where it went from sort 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:29.040 of a more conservative majority to more left leaning majority. 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.520 Another case came up saying you know, we think that 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:36.480 that earlier decision was wrong and asking the court to 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.640 take another look, and the court then reversed itself and said, 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:44.040 we agree. We think that the previous majority got it 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.800 wrong and drop boxes were in fact permitted in the state. 0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.760 So that's now the status quo and Wisconsin heading into 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:51.920 this election cycle. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.679 Can we generally say that it's Republicans that are challenging 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:01.400 absentee voting and ballot drop boxes rather than Democrats. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.439 I think that's right. I think that's what our research 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.040 has shown. I don't think that any Republican would disagree 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.320 with that. I think that's become a line in the 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.240 stand where conservatives, you know, have taken the position that 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.600 once you take voting out of a physical precinct, that 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.920 it is just apparently less secure. Many election officials across 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:26.880 the ideological spectrum would disagree with that, as would Democrats 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:29.280 and civil rights groups, but it has remained sort of 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.920 a live issue four years after the pandemic. 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:37.320 Speak Coming up next, I'll continue this conversation with Bloomberg 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:41.680 legal reporter Zoe Tillman. Certifying the vote was not something 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.240 we questioned before last year's election. It's certainly different now, 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.800 as a case in Georgia illustrates. I'm June Grasso, and 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:54.560 you're listening to Bloomberg. Bloomberg has identified at least one 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.920 hundred and sixty five lawsuits filed in thirty seven states 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.200 in the last two years that challenge every facet of 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:06.240 the upcoming presidential election. More than half the cases have 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:09.600 been filed in the seven states critical for an electoral 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:14.040 college victory. Outcomes have been mixed. The Republican National Committee 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:18.800 lost fights over late arriving absentee ballots in Nevada and Mississippi, 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:22.720 and the use of dropboxes in Wisconsin, but won in 0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:27.040 order limiting voter ID options for North Carolina college students. 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:31.920 The Democratic National Committee joined an unsuccessful push to get 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:37.199 undated mail ballots counted in Pennsylvania, but back Wisconsin's successful 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:42.000 defense of its rules for absentee ballots requested online. I've 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:46.040 been talking to Bloomberg senior legal reporter Zoe Tillman. Zoe, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:51.040 before the break, we were discussing absentee ballots and Democrats 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.480 use absentee ballots more than Republicans, right. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.880 That's right. Surveys of voters who voted in twenty twenty, 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.240 you know, it showed that they did in larger numbers 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.320 vote for Joe Biden as compared to Donald Trump, and 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:08.240 those are trends. I think that there's an expectation that 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.880 those would continue to hold. But again, you know, this 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:15.840 is the first presidential elections since the last presidential election 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:18.360 and will be more of a test of what is 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:22.040 the new normal when it comes to absent voting outside 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:23.840 the context of a pandemic. 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:30.440 Republicans are always pushing harder access to the polls by 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.640 requiring voter IDs of different kinds, and there was just 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:36.679 a case in North Carolina. 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.960 The RNC went to court to challenge the ability of 0:13:42.760 --> 0:13:46.480 students and employees at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:50.720 who now have digital ID cards that they can use 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.400 on their phones, basically to say that this is not 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.160 what the state law allows for that it needs to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.520 be a physical hard copy of an ID. At lower 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.360 court disagreed with the R and C and that the 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.559 digital ideas would be fine. There was a round of 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.120 of news coverage of that and headlines saying this would 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.800 be permitted, and then a week later the Court of 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:16.040 Appeal stepped in and said no. And first and you know, 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.000 I think that was a good illustration of how much 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:23.000 power courts have, not just to decide how people vote 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.120 and sort of what the rules are, but also you know, 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.520 how much you know, last minute preparation and changes election 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.960 officials have to be prepared to contend with as these 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.200 cases get decided, you know, in the final weeks, when 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:40.720 election offices have been preparing for months or years for 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:41.960 an election to take place. 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:44.800 And also how confusing for voters who think they're going 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.600 to go to the polls with their student ideas and 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.200 then find that they can't. 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.440 Right, and this is always a big concern among judges 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.000 as they handle cases, especially in the final weeks and months. 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.760 And you know, the US Supreme Court has urged federal 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:03.800 in particular to be quite wary of intervening at the 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.160 last minute. You know, the risk of voter confusion as 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.840 well as chaos among the people running the elections. But 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.720 you know, courts have had to grapple with if something 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:19.800 is illegal or unconstitutional, how do you weigh not acting 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:23.920 against you know, the considerations of confusion and chaos. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.960 Let's talk about which ballots count. And we've learned that 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.640 the vote count is not final on election night, so 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:36.680 when voters make mistakes on their absentee ballots, each state 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:38.760 has a different kind of approach to this. 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:43.120 That's right. States have the ability to decide. You know, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.520 if you send in a ballot that doesn't quite comply 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.000 with the rules, do you get noticed, do you have 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:53.080 an opportunity to fix the issue? Can you instead come 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.800 to the polls on election data cast a provisional ballot? 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.040 And that's a fight that we've seen play out this cycle, 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.880 especially in pen Bldania, which has laws saying basically, if 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.400 you send in a mail ballot and you don't put 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.840 a date on the envelope, or you put a date 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:11.720 that is clearly wrong. You know, you write your birthday 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:15.360 instead of any date this year, that that ballot isn't 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:18.480 counted even if it arrives by election day. And there's 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:22.280 been a lot of litigation over that, including the federal level, 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.560 which is still pending. But you know, there was another 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.960 round of state court litigation. We saw lower courts blocking 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.920 that law from being enforced. But then the state Supreme 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.840 Court has come in in several cases and tossed those 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:37.640 cases out, which means that for this election, at least, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:42.760 the expectation is that those undated or misstated ballots won't count. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.760 There's a potential for some very last minute litigation to 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.640 change that, but as of now, that's the status quo. 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.600 So I think again, you know, another example of these 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.120 rules that on paper might seem very technical or in 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.160 the leaves, but it ends up affecting you know, thousands 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:01.680 of ballots, which can really make the difference in a 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:03.080 swing state like Pennsylvania. 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.480 I was surprised that more than half of all states, 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:09.720 except at least some absentee ballots that arrive after November fifth. 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:13.399 So yes, probably more fights to come on that. So 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.520 now we'll move to this area how the election is finalized. 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.639 And as you point out, certification of the vote, I 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:25.760 mean was never anything that was talked about before the 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:27.240 last presidential election. 0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:31.960 That's right. It's long been considered sort of a ministerial 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.399 role where you know, as long as the numbers, the 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:40.280 number of ballots that come in match in some reasonable 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.120 way the number of people who are eligible to vote 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.879 in that precinct, that they then move on to the 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:51.080 next phase of things. And there are ways to challenge 0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:55.280 ballot counts after the certification process, but that was never 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.600 really seen as sort of a flashpoint in this process. 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:03.560 That changed into one when after the election, Donald Trump 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:08.480 and his supporters looked for ways to overturn results in 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.440 states where it appeared he was set to lose and 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.520 you know, pressure campaigns on state lawmakers to intervene and 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.400 then eventually on Congress to intervene. But it really put 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:24.639 new attention on disphase of the certification process at the 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.479 county and state level as a potential pressure point and 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.560 a place for supporters of one candidate or another to 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.479 use their power in a way that it hadn't been 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.600 used before to intercede if it looked like the preferred 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:40.159 candidate is going to lose. 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.720 A judge decided one of these cases in Georgia just yesterday. 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.920 That's right. There's a Republican member of the Fulton County 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:53.560 Election Board, Julie Adams, who is Republican Trump supporter and 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.399 in May, had refused to certify the results of a 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.160 presidential primary on the grounds that she hadn't gotten all 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.760 of the information that she felt she needed to confirm 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:08.160 that the results were accurate and that the election went 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.159 off as it should have, and the board overruled her. 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.560 She was outvoted. But it raises question of you know, 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.800 what happens if a county board, you know, does vote 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.560 to not certify. So that went to court. Julie Adams 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:25.840 went to court and said I want a judge to 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:27.960 tell me that I do have the power to do this, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.360 And what happened this week was a judge that no, 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:35.119 you don't, that it's a mandatory duty. And so far, 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:38.159 Julie Adams lawyers in indicated they're not going to appeal this, 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 that we expect this to continue to be sort of 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:45.440 a live issue until we see what other local officials, 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.760 do you know when it's time to cast those vote. 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.800 I mean, there is concern about some of these local 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:57.320 rules that were enacted since the last presidential election, and 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.920 there's going to be a hearing today Enjoy again on 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.040 a local rule requiring a hand count of ballots at 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:05.960 the county level. 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.040 There have been several changes by the Georgia State Election Board, 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:14.760 which has a Republican majority, taking steps that critics and 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:18.480 even some Republican prominent Republicans in the state have said 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:24.320 are not lawful and aimed at sowing chaos confusion ahead 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.919 of the election and afterwards. And the handcount rule would 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.560 require precinct level officials to do a handcount of ballots 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:38.520 before they moved to the next phase of counting. There's 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.640 a lot of concern that this will dramatically hold things up, 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:48.120 that this could expose open the post election processed security issues. 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.920 If you know, ballots are just out of the boxes 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.480 of being handled by multiple people. So we had a 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.560 ruling last night from a judge blocking that rule. There 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:00.840 are other cases before other judges that have hearings today. 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.200 So another one of these sort of fast moving, very 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:06.920 late in the game. Supplication you have to. 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.040 Be on alert twenty four hours a day, it seems 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.960 for these all these cases coming down and explain what 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.960 the twenty twenty two congressional legislation did. 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:20.840 So After twenty twenty which exposed some real gaps in 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:25.200 the process that folks could potentially exploit, Congress came in 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.000 and in bipartisan legislation and acted a series of reforms, 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:34.280 including sort of clear deadlines for the different phases of 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:39.480 a certification, made clear which state officials were responsible for 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:44.360 signing off on results. And you know, I think generally 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.119 election experts were pleased with this, that they felt that 0:21:48.160 --> 0:21:52.560 it did sort of head off potentially more mischief. Another 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.439 change I should say is that it made clear that 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:58.639 the vice president's duty to confirm the results of Congress's 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:03.160 certification is again sterial, not discretionary. Trying to avoid another 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:07.440 situation like sir Donald Trump was pressuring, like Pence intervened 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:09.679 at the last minute. But you know, this is going 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:11.840 to be the first test and to see how it 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:17.280 goes and whether there are still other areas that could 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:23.440 be misused if it looks like it's a close race. 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:29.240 As you mentioned in your story, a lot of election 0:22:29.720 --> 0:22:33.040 experts say that a problem with all this litigation is 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:37.399 that voters start to doubt that the process is fair. 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:41.639 I mean, listen, litigation is inherently adversarial. Right, someone is 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.840 coming to court because to them, at least, there is 0:22:44.880 --> 0:22:50.080 some problem that requires a judge to step in and decide, 0:22:50.200 --> 0:22:52.520 you know, who is right and who is wrong. And 0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:55.120 so it becomes, at a minimum, you know, a vehicle 0:22:55.560 --> 0:22:59.520 to raise concerns, to ask questions, to plant seeds of 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.919 doubt that the election is going to go off the 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.800 way that it should and in compliance with state and 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:09.000 federal laws and constitutions. And the more that you have 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.440 that landing in courts, you know, it's a potential for 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:15.359 people to see headlines and ask, you know, are their 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.679 problems with the election, regardless of what the final outcome 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:21.960 might be months or even years down the line, depending 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.959 on how long litigation takes to resolve. So, you know, 0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:28.400 as a general rule, courts and judges are not supposed 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:30.840 to be the ones deciding elections in our system. We 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:34.199 want that's a flighted by voters. So there's a concern, 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:37.199 sort of an overarching concern that this could become a 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:41.840 new normal where courts become major players in election cycles 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:44.600 in a way that they just haven't been in the past, and. 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:49.040 It seems like everyone is anticipating that no matter who wins, 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:52.000 there are going to be a lot of lawsuits over 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.199 the election. Thanks so much, Zoe, great story and so 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:59.080 much research went into it. That's Zoe Tillman, Bloomberg Senior 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.200