1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm fascinated by the 2 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: fact that there are so many people nowadays seemingly obsessed 3 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: with the idea of the apocalypse. It baffles the mind. 4 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: It really It goes to an old idea about where 5 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: your treasure is stored up, that thing that you've invested 6 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: time in. I guess in your mind, those moments that 7 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: you sit around and you contemplate these things, and it's 8 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: it's everywhere. You got it in video games, and you 9 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: even have people that do what's referred to as cosplay 10 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: and they are obsessed with it as a matter of fact, 11 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: by extension that they will so embroidery their life, knit 12 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: themselves together, if you will, with this idea of this 13 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,960 Speaker 1: persona that they create where you don't know where fact 14 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: and fiction are separated. Today, we're gonna talk about a 15 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: fella that self identified as somebody named the Zombie Hunter. 16 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: He even wrote around in an old unmarked police car 17 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: with that written on it, and it had been painted 18 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: with bloodstains. We're gonna be talking about the recent conviction 19 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: and sentencing of Brian Patrick Miller. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 20 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: and this is Body bags, Dave mac I spent a 21 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: lot of time doing let's see, how can I put this? 22 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: Scratching my head? You sit back sometimes and just think 23 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: what in the world is happening? And when this news 24 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: kind of dropped about the recent conviction and sentencing of 25 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: Brian Patrick Miller, I wanted to have a conversation with 26 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: you about it today because I'm not going to say 27 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: it beats everything I've ever seen, but it's kind of 28 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: a very, very sad and tragic commentary. 29 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 2: I think the popularity of the zombie has been big 30 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: for the last I don't know, fifteen years or so, 31 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: we've had TV shows, movies about zombies, the zombie apocalypse. 32 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 2: If you look it up, you know, just do a 33 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 2: quick Google search and you're going to see not only 34 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: is there an entertainment factor of the whole zombie thing, 35 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: but there's also a real is Waco nut job a 36 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: term of a scientific term for what we're dealing with? 37 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you think about that, and it kind of it 38 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: goes to and I tried to tell my students that 39 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: I teach at Jacksonville State and say, look, be very 40 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: careful how you use the term crazy, right, because it 41 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: kind of diminishes responsibility, I think in one degree, and 42 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: then it doesn't really go to the heart of the 43 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: issue because when you sit back, and particularly in this 44 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 1: case with Miller, you kind of see how debased his 45 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: worldview was and what terror and horror he kind of 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: wrought people that were actually victims, these young ladies that 47 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: were victims. You can see this as a death investigator 48 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: out you know, in forensics, when you go out to 49 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: deal with family members. One of the things is it's 50 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: one of those markers in life where you have everything 51 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: that happened before and everything that happened afterwards, and these 52 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: families are scarred forever and ever and ever by this 53 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: guy's egocentric indulgence. 54 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: Brian Patrick Miller, I think it bears going into and 55 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: realizing that while we have two murders, that's what he's 56 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: accused of here and going to court and all that. 57 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: But right at the very beginning, you mentioned how he 58 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 2: would drive around in this zombie hunter mobile, you know, 59 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 2: a car that looked like a police car. It had 60 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: lights in black and white, and it had blood spatters 61 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: on it, well not real blood, but fake blood, and 62 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 2: it was his whole persona. And actually he found himself 63 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 2: in this character somehow and became part of the steam 64 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 2: punk movement. Are you familiar with this at all? Steampunk? 65 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, at least peripherally. Yeah. 66 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: Steampunk. It's a sub genre of science fiction that kind 67 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: of think about Big Bang theory for a minute of 68 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: the TV show and you have this show about these 69 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: guys that are all about comic books and superheroes and 70 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: the movies and all that. Steampunk takes. It's kind of 71 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 2: from that same island, but it hops on a different 72 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: boat and paddles a different direction. It takes this fantasy 73 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 2: world and it begins incorporating cosplay, costume plays and things 74 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 2: like that, where they dress up in outfits that set 75 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: them apart. If you can imagine a term retro futuristic. 76 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 2: They take this stuff from science fiction and they fuse 77 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 2: it together with nineteenth century outfits, machinery, industrial steam power. 78 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: That's where the steampunk thing comes from. Brian Patrick Miller 79 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: he was very involved in the steampunk group in Phoenix 80 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 2: for at least four years. And we know this because 81 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: one of the guys who knew him as part of 82 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: this group talks about him and talked about the kind 83 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: of individual he was and what he liked to dress up, 84 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: and he really took the dress up thing. That's where 85 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 2: the Zombie Hunter came out of. It was part of 86 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: his just dress up time. Pretend. 87 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: No, anytime you have somebody I think that is developmentally stunted, 88 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,799 Speaker 1: perhaps it's an opportunity, certainly to put on a mask 89 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: and you inhabit this environment come something totally different. You know, 90 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: maybe your perception in life is that you don't have 91 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: everything that's coming to you, or I want to leave 92 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: the old life behind and just for a moment, I 93 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: can inhabit this space and become something else. And one 94 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: of the more disturbing things I saw about this you 95 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: mentioned the car, and the car is a former police vehicle. 96 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: It's a sedan, a FOURD or sedan as you can imagine, 97 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: and things fitted with lights Dave. And then it's got 98 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: emblazoned on the trunk in particular. And the reason I 99 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: say it's emblazoned on the trunk, I've actually seen pictures 100 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: of him at a couple of these conventions in Arizona 101 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: in Phoenix where he's standing there and he's in his 102 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: full regalia with a leather jacket on. He's got a 103 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: gas mask on with old helmet looks like maybe a 104 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: French World War One helmet, and he's holding this kind 105 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: of odd, oddly configured weapon. You know, it's got multiple 106 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: barrels that look like it would rotate or something like this, 107 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: and he's standing there very ominous. But here's another piece 108 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: to this. He was so embolden. There are multiple images 109 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: on the Internet of him standing having his picture taken 110 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: with uniform police officers that are providing security for this event. 111 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people have pictures made with cops. 112 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: That's part of the attraction of it. You know, you 113 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: go down our families had pictures made with New Orleans 114 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: Police Apartment equestrian officers, you know, where they're beautiful animals 115 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: there and you're standing next to them, you know, and 116 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: those guys are smiling, and we're smiling. That doesn't necessarily 117 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: mean that you're guilty of anything. But I think that 118 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: in retrospect, when you begin to look at what this 119 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: behavior is that he engaged in, you begin to see 120 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: a boldness about it. And maybe that boldness was I 121 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: don't know, facilitated or eggnon by this cloak that he 122 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,600 Speaker 1: kind of throw around his shoulders where you couldn't really 123 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: see what lie underneath. Many years back, I was in 124 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: attendance at the American Academy of Forensic Science meeting in 125 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: a large city, which is where it happens. If you've 126 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: never been, it's pretty amazing. You have forensic scientists from 127 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: all disciplines that are there, and you get together and 128 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: you present papers and those sorts of things, and you 129 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: can kind of walk in and out of these rooms 130 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: and you can listen to what each one of these 131 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: experts have to say about things they find of interest. 132 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: I walked into a room one day at the conference, 133 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: and it was the odentology room, which is people that 134 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: handle teeth, you know, whether it's getting bodies identified or 135 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: if it was back in the day relative to bite marks. 136 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: And I walked in and there was a forensic odentologist 137 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: from Mount West that was speaking about arguably one of 138 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: the most gruesome things that I'd ever seen. I saw 139 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: the images from this, and it was images of a 140 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: jogger out in Colorado, a young lady that parked a 141 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: car in a parking lot and she did her warm ups, 142 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: her leg stretches. She hops on the local running trail 143 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: and proceeds to jog and this trail kind of wound 144 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: its way through this little park area. And what she 145 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: didn't know was that sitting up on a rock above 146 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: this area that she was about to jog past was 147 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: mountain lion. And that mountain lion grabbed hold of her 148 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: and did things that I can't even begin to describe 149 00:09:56,760 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: on the show. And probably to add another layer of 150 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 1: horror to this, there were two men that left about 151 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: five minutes after she did, and when they got to 152 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: that spot on that trail there her lifeless body was 153 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: clinched in the teeth of this mountain lion and he 154 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: was ripping under shred riding from these guys. Can you 155 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 1: imagine the horror of that? In my estimation, Miller was 156 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: kind of like that mountain line because he victimized young 157 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: the ladies that were out riding their bikes. 158 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: Well, we are talking about today, Brian Patrick Miller, the 159 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: zombie hunter. He named himself that he has two victims 160 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: that we're dealing with. Two victims, two beautiful young women. 161 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: Angela Brasso was twenty one when she went missing, actually 162 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: the day before her twenty second birthday, and Melanie Burness seventeen. 163 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: She was in high school. There similarities. They both rode bicycles. 164 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 2: Whether you're doing it for health, enjoyment oftentimes the tour together, 165 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: or you're competing for something. I mean, this is something 166 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 2: a lot of people do in terms of staying healthy 167 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: and enjoying. I love riding a bike. It's a fun 168 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: thing to do. But in this case, both the women 169 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: were by themselves at the time they came in contact 170 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: with Miller. Now Brian Patrick Miller called himself the zombie Hunter, 171 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: was into steampunk, created this whole persona. But you know 172 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: what that came after the murders that he's accused of. 173 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 2: Now we're talking about thirty years ago. We're talking about 174 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: in the early nineties, and police were able to collect 175 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: evidence that even though they didn't really have a suspect, 176 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 2: they had a broad net. But what they collected at 177 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: the scene of the crime led to finding this guy. 178 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: Angela Brosso left her home. She was living with her boyfriend, 179 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:49,959 Speaker 2: twenty one years old, living in Phoenix. She goes for 180 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: a bike ride around seven o'clock on a Sunday evening. 181 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 2: She doesn't return four and a half. Few hours later, 182 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 2: it's like eleven thirty at night. She was going to 183 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: be back hours ago. Her boy friend calls police. Now 184 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: you know, the first thing they're going to do is 185 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 2: assume the boyfriend did something. That's just normal police procedure 186 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: to look at the person they're closest to and starting 187 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: with him. But it didn't last long because the next morning, 188 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 2: her naked, decapitated body was found near the bike trail. 189 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 2: Now remember here, decapitated means her head had been removed 190 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 2: from her body. And by the way, I read this 191 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 2: line from the police report the first time because I 192 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: thought they made a mistake. It said her abdomen and 193 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: chest were cut open, she was decapitated, and her head 194 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: was missing. 195 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I read the same thing, 196 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: and you know what it made me think of Immediately, 197 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: it made me think of the Black Dahlia, because that's 198 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: what had occurred in that case that made it so 199 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: very infamous. First off, they didn't know who she was, 200 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: but you find a body, this term is normally associated 201 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: with church, but her body was so desecrated, and I 202 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: thought about this just for a moment, and I'm thinking, 203 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,439 Speaker 1: if you see something like this, is the killer living 204 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: out some kind of fantasy in their mind. This something 205 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: that they're kind of acting out and the Black Dahlias 206 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: in true crime, it's up there in kind of the 207 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: pantheon because they still don't know who did it, but 208 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,320 Speaker 1: people have always been aware of it. They've always been 209 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,959 Speaker 1: aware of it. And when I heard this, I was thinking, 210 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: I wonder if that's where his mind was at the time. 211 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: What would it take for somebody in this particular case. 212 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 2: You've got a healthy, twenty one year old young woman 213 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 2: on a bike and she is attacked while riding the 214 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: bike by the way, her bike was missing. That was 215 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: one of the sides of this is that her bike 216 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 2: was missing, and so was her head. Her body was 217 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: found without its head. Now they found her body the 218 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: next day, so we know that she left for the 219 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: bike ride around seven o'clock the night before, and when 220 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: they find her body the next day, she has been abused. 221 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: They say she was sexually assaulted either before, during, or 222 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: after she was dead. But for her to be found 223 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: near that bike trail, would the person who commits this 224 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: crime be able to do all that damage right there? Quickly? 225 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out how this could happen. Did 226 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 2: he take her someplace else, did damage and bring her back? 227 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: How did this happen, and how could it happen that 228 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: people didn't see it? Nobody saw this. 229 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: The watchwork for this is privacy, provhecy, and then I 230 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: think probably close second is preparedness. This is not something 231 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: that someone would go into without having planned extensively, because 232 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: when you're talking about desecrating, and I want to continue 233 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: to use that word in our conversation, when you talk 234 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: about descreting remains where you're literally removing the head of 235 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: a fellow human being and then desecrating the remainder of 236 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: the body. One of the assessments that was done on her, 237 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: and this kind of rings rings in my ears, is 238 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: the fact that her body was almost completely transacted, which 239 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 1: means you have an incision, if you will, that runs 240 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: from east to west across the axis of the body. 241 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: And that's not something that you would undertake and not 242 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: have the ability to hide what you were doing. You know, 243 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: first off, if you're going to much like the story 244 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: about the Mountain Lion, if you're going to snatch a 245 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: young woman who's obviously healthy, she's healthy enough to ride 246 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: a bike right off of a bike and avoid any 247 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: kind of detection, then you're going to have to have 248 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: privacy in order to facilitate this, and not just privacy day, 249 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: but just to the point of attack. The killer would 250 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: have to have very intimate knowledge of the location. What's 251 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: going to be the choke point here where you're going 252 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: to lay in wait to ambush her as she's riding 253 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: this bike and you're going to knock her off of 254 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: it and then get the upper hand on her. And 255 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: to my way of thinking, an individual that would do 256 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: this would have to be prepared not just with what 257 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 1: you're going to do with the body with the desecration part, 258 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 1: but we're talking about sexual assault. And here's the key. 259 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: With the sexual assault, you've got sample that has been 260 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: left behind. So do you kill the individual first? And 261 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: I think that that's probably what happened in this particular case. 262 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: Essentially a stabbing, that's how it starts. You incapacitate them 263 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: to the point where they are now deceased. Now you 264 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: can do anything that you want to with a body. 265 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: We know that Miller is the perpetrator, so he's already 266 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: living in this fantastical world, right, and so he has 267 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: the facility about him to continue out this fantasy. You 268 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: drag this poor girl's body off to a location and 269 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: where you can facilitate this and have your way sexually 270 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: with the body. So now we've entered into the space 271 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: of necrophilia, now sex with the dead, and you're leaving 272 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: a biological sample behind which, to your credit, you picked 273 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 1: up on just a few moments a good day where 274 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: you talked about the police held onto this for years. 275 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 1: I mean years, thirty You're talking about a thirty year 276 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: gap here. This can be very fragile evidence. But they 277 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,439 Speaker 1: were able, and I think they were so resolute in 278 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: their investigation where they knew how important this would be 279 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: if they could collect anything off of her. But you know, 280 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: it's within a month after he does this horrible act 281 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: that he goes after Melanie Burnos. 282 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: Actually, the reality of the timeline is that when they 283 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: found Rosso's body, her head was not there. They found 284 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: her head a week and a half later, eleven days later, 285 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 2: and I was wondering if the zombie hunter held onto 286 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: her head as a trophy or something in his freezer 287 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 2: and then put it out for them to find, or 288 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: if he actually they just over didn't find it at 289 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 2: first because it was found a little ways away from 290 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: where her body was discovered. 291 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: And this is important. You know, most of the time 292 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: when I think of Phoenix, Phoenix in particular because it's 293 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 1: so bloody hot. I love Phoenix. I love Arizona. I 294 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 1: was there in the army at for Watchuka many many 295 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: moons ago when dinosaurs were on the earth, and I 296 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: love Arizona. It is an absolutely beautiful place. But I 297 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: don't normally associate water with that area. But this Arizona 298 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: Canal actually did contain water, so you begin to think 299 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: was water moving swiftly, you know through this area. Was 300 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 1: there some kind of release, you know, current release, you know, 301 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: if they're using it as a drain or something like that, 302 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: and it had migrated the head away from the body. 303 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: And sometimes this will happen. Things kind of move along 304 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: and you're not necessarily going to find it. But you know, 305 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: that's very interesting, you know, you mentioned and are you 306 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: holding on you know, if you're thinking about the methodology here. 307 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: If he is a trophy hunter, is he hanging onto 308 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: the head in order to continue out this fantasy and 309 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 1: then maybe he just gets tired of it and disposes 310 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: of it. 311 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: And that's what I was wondering, because you mentioned how 312 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 2: hot it is in Phoenix. I looked up the average 313 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 2: temperature for this time of year in Phoenix, and the 314 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,000 Speaker 2: temperature ranges from a high of like between seventy and 315 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: eighty degrees lows in the load to mid sixties. So 316 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 2: it's very moderate attempts in November in Phoenix. But again 317 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 2: that dry also lacking humidity. Phoenix doesn't have much humidity, 318 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: so we've got that. 319 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: Now. 320 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 2: We mentioned the second victim, Melanie Burness. Melanie was seventeen 321 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: years old high school student and what's a bike rider 322 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: on top of the other things that she did. She 323 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: was found eleven months later. She was actually killed in 324 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 2: September of nineteen ninety three. So we have the first victim, 325 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 2: Melanie burn As Abrasso being killed in September, I mean 326 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 2: November rather of ninety two, ten months later. Second victim, 327 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 2: Melanie Burnas is killed out on that same canal bike 328 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: trail when it happened, and she was the actual paperwork 329 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: says she was murdered with a knife. Police say that 330 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: she was stabbed in the back and pulled off the bike. 331 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 2: Now her bike also was missing. She was attacked, sexually 332 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: assaulted and murdered with a knife. They found her body 333 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: floating in the Arizona Canal near an interstate overpass, about 334 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: a mile and a half from where they found Angela's 335 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: Angela Brosos remains ten months earlier. Now, in this case, 336 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: she was not decapitated, but her bike was missing. So 337 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: if he took the time to decapitate his first victim, 338 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: do you think he either learned that that was a 339 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: really difficult thing to do and to not do it again, 340 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: or he was interrupted in the process. 341 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that what you've got is you've got 342 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: to there is you know they talk about this with 343 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: cereal perpetrators. You've got kind of a learning curve that 344 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: goes on in a comfort level. They decide what they're 345 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,719 Speaker 1: going to do. And there were so many stab wounds 346 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 1: on her body that they couldn't count them. And I've 347 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: had this happen before as an investigator, where you have 348 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: multiple wounds where they will be communicating wounds, which means 349 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: that one wound attaches or connects to another and you 350 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: can't really make heads or tails off it. You're fighting 351 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: against the idea that this is so horrific and there 352 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: might be some level of decomposition that's going on where 353 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,919 Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of separate one from another. But 354 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: when you look at this precious seventeen year old girl, 355 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: something different happened with her because when her remains were 356 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: actually found, and I don't know how many people really 357 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: know about this, a knife had been used to carve 358 00:21:55,200 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: across into her chest. And not only had that occurred, 359 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: but the initials WSC were carved into our body as well, 360 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: and the police were never able to determine what WSC 361 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: stood for. And I think that when you find something 362 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,439 Speaker 1: like that at a scene, you're so compelled to go 363 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: down that path. What kind of pattern can I recognize here? 364 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: And it goes beyond just our physical assessment as to 365 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: what kind of tool was used or how long did 366 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 1: it take, how deep were the wounds, which is certainly 367 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: something where they've done post mortem or anti mortem, you know, 368 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: like in an individual being tortured, But it also goes 369 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: to kind of forensically breaking down things like handwriting, for instance, 370 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: and are there any commonalities in that location. Who's on 371 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: my witness list here that might have a commonality with 372 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: the letters WSC because that's a very specific marker. You 373 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: scratch your head over it, so and it's very easy 374 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: to get caught up in that, but sometimes it turns 375 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: up the red herring, the sheer horror that kind of 376 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: inhabits the minds of those that may have lived in 377 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: close proximity to the Arizona Canal and there's no more 378 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: peace to be found. And with Miller, this case remained 379 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: unresolved for decades. Dave. 380 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: When you sent me this story to look at, my 381 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: first thought was, you're going to tell me that two 382 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 2: women die under very similar circumstances, and police are able 383 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 2: to very early tell that the same attacker was involved 384 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: in both. But they don't have a suspect, they don't 385 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: have a us back. You know that the person did both. 386 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: You've got a general geography geographically speaking, they're a mile 387 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:07,959 Speaker 2: and a half from one another in the same area. 388 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: And it just was shocking. And that's why I pointed 389 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: out that the detectives, those people on scene that collected evidence, 390 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 2: they really did their job. But now again it sat 391 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,800 Speaker 2: there for decades unsolved, with people wondering did the guy 392 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 2: move on? Is he in jail or is he out 393 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: there waiting and just getting away with stuff or not 394 00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: hearing about it. But we now know that when Brian 395 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: Patrick Miller was sixteen years old. This is May of 396 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: eighty nine, couple of years before the first murder took place. 397 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 2: He stabbed a twenty four year old woman. They were 398 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 2: riding a bus together, didn't know one another, had never 399 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: met before. They get at the Paradise Valley Mall, they're 400 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: in Phoenix, and he stabs her in the back. He's charged, 401 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 2: but he's the juvenile. He was convicted of aggravated assault 402 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 2: and he was imprisoned at Adobe Mountain Juvenile Correctional Facility. 403 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 2: While he was there, he became involved with a pastor 404 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 2: who worked with the Paradise Valley Mennonite Church, and they 405 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 2: had a prison ministry, loving on young people who had 406 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 2: committed Hainu's crimes, trying to show them that there's more 407 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: to life than what you've done. Anyway, Miller becomes involved 408 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: with the church and becomes deeply involved with the church 409 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: after he is released from this juvenile facility, because at eighteen, 410 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 2: he's no longer a juvenile. To go to release him 411 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: in Joe, his mother rejects him. His mother will not 412 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 2: take him. You know you're not coming back. They had 413 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: a bad relationship before, but she won't even take him 414 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 2: back and so the church, they took him in and 415 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: he lived with a number of different members in the church. 416 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 2: So think about this. We're talking about this young person 417 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: going to juvenile for stabbing a woman he didn't know. 418 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: He gets out, his mother says she can't be with me. 419 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 2: He kind of gets fostered out. Now he's supposedly an adult. 420 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 2: In May of nineteen ninety two, he's baptized in the church, 421 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: baptized in the church, and then what one hundred and 422 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 2: twenty days later he kills a woman. 423 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, give me that dated chin. 424 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: He actually was baptized in May of ninety two and 425 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: then commits his first well, the first murder we know about, Okay, 426 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: happens in September of nineteen ninety and that's where Peter 427 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 2: think that maybe the cross came into play. I don't know. 428 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: I'm just throwing it out there, but we don't know. 429 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: The only things we know are the things that we. 430 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: Have heard about. 431 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: I have a real deep feeling that there's a lot 432 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: more that we need to find out about Brian Patrick Miller, 433 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: but just starting with these two, I have questions about 434 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 2: the deaths of both the women that he actually went 435 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 2: to courtover and how A how come they couldn't solve 436 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: this sooner? And B how did they after years? Cases 437 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,399 Speaker 2: called Joe? How do they solve a case? They have 438 00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 2: all the evidence collected in nineteen ninety two and ninety three. 439 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: It's it's not like there's any more new evidence popping 440 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 2: up at the crime scene. What was the difference between 441 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: then and twenty fifteen when they were able to make 442 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: an arrest. 443 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a matter and as frustrating as this is, 444 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,640 Speaker 1: you have to wait for the technology to catch up. 445 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: And this can be applied in a lot of It's 446 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: not just limited to DNA. There are a lot of 447 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,919 Speaker 1: other areas where in science where we've had to allow 448 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: technology to get us to the point where we can 449 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: explore new things and try to understand. You might suspect 450 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: that there is something there. You've got these two young women, 451 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 1: as you say, that are connected geographically, so you know 452 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: you're fitting into a particular geographic profile. And then you've 453 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: got methodology that you have to look at. You've got 454 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: somebody that has a real interest in edged weapons here 455 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: that go to you know, we talked about the first 456 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: victim where it seemed kind of frenzied. And I'm not 457 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: talking about the young lady that he stabbed on the bus, 458 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: but I am talking about the frenzied attack that you 459 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 1: have with the first victim, and then you move on 460 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: to the next victim, where the individual is taking their time, 461 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, taking their time to the 462 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: point where they're using an edged weapon to carve an 463 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: image of a cross as you mentioned, and also initials 464 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: into the body. You're on a completely different wavelength at 465 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: that point in time, and so you have all of 466 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: that connection. Here's my thing. If you've got somebody that 467 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: would be so bold in order to perpetrate these kinds 468 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: of crimes, and you look back in time and see 469 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: his attack on this woman on the bus, you think 470 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: other victims out there. I think any right thinking person 471 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: would have to ask that question, is there anybody else 472 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: out there that they have not connected to him yet? 473 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: So the crux of this is the fact it was 474 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: actually forensic genealogy that got this case solved, and in particular, 475 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: I think probably historically, when we look at the history 476 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: of forensic science and where we are right now have 477 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: to wait for technology to catch up. Probably one of 478 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: the giants in this field. Colleen Fitzpatrick, she lent a 479 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: hand in this case because the police, they know intuitively, 480 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: you know that you got something here, just can't seem 481 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: to put the pieces back. And it just so happened 482 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: that Colleen Fitzpatrick, who is in fact a forensic scientist 483 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: that involves herself in forensic genealogy, that works with She's 484 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: actually got a background in physics of all things, which 485 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: is completely different than forensic genealogy, but it requires kind 486 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: of a methodical approach to things. She was able to 487 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: narrow the suspect field down based upon that evidence that 488 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: they had collected all those many years ago. 489 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 2: Dave, when I was looking at this, there was an 490 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 2: interesting moment that took place. It was a very cold 491 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: case and the detectives ended up going to a conference. 492 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: It's at this exact same conference Colleen Fitzpatrick and they 493 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 2: connected and said, can we send you some infook? Can 494 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: we send you this, We've got some DNA can you help? 495 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: And Jesus that I'll try, And that's I mean happenstance. 496 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: Due they were at the conference a was in Phoenix, 497 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: So if this conference had taken place anywhere other than Phoenix, 498 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have been there. 499 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, and life is that way, and sometimes it happens 500 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: that way. And it just so happened that the lives 501 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: of these investigators that had to thing hanging on there 502 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: on their books for a long time that had remained 503 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: it wasn't cold to them. You know. People just kind 504 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of randomly throw out that term cold case. Many times. 505 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: I apologize that was really wrong for me to say, 506 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 2: because they were working it. 507 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: No, I think a lot of people do. It is cold, 508 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: maybe tepid, but it's still in your mind as an investigator, 509 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: it's there. You're thinking about it, and it's very hard, 510 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: I think, in the memory of an organization like a 511 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: police department to forget cases like this where you've got 512 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: a decapitation, you've got bodies that have had let's face 513 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: at words, images that are carved into them, and you 514 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: don't want to forget that because it kind of stands out. 515 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: And just as I spoke just a moment ago, for 516 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: people involved in a case like this, you're thinking, look, 517 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: this is happening here geographically, we have a profile, but 518 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: has this extended out any further? Is this occurring anywhere? 519 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: And many people in the populace believe that, well, if 520 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 1: I have captured DNA at a scene automatically, it's going 521 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: to be solved. Well, here's the problem the rub as 522 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 1: they say, it's like a latent print. You can grab 523 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: as many latent prints at a scene that you want, 524 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: but if you don't have anything to compare it to, 525 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: it ain't worth the gunpowder to blow it to hell. 526 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with DNA sample. If you 527 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: don't have any thing to compare it to. He got 528 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: a problem. And there's two separate categories of DNA. You 529 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: have what's referred to as a forensic DNA database, which 530 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: means you've got cases that are open out there. We've 531 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: got a DNA sample, we don't have a profile. And 532 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: you have known you have known offenders that have tie 533 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: backs and they've gotten samples on individuals, say that are 534 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: sex offenders where they've taken samples, they've married those up 535 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: to items that they've collected, it seems, and they know 536 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: those individuals. The problem is is that with these two 537 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: cases in Phoenix, you know, they didn't have anybody compare 538 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: it to. And so that's where Colleen Fitzpatrick comes in. 539 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: You know this this person that's trained as a physicist, 540 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: which is amazing to me. But she has a true 541 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: passion for forensic genealogy. She's able to narrow the scope 542 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: now and that's you know, all roads lead back to 543 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: Miller in this case, Dave. 544 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 2: And that was the part that really got me with 545 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: And we were looking at this Joe and again mentioning 546 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 2: the fact that it had been so many years and 547 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: she is able to from October of twenty fourteen to 548 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 2: December two months time, emailing back and forth. This information 549 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: finally came out during court proceedings, but their emails indicating 550 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: that police were providing information and she was providing it 551 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,480 Speaker 2: back and forth as they communicated, and she was able 552 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: to narrow it down. And it wasn't just a matter 553 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: of getting the last name, it was getting the geographical 554 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: location and everything else. And the police wisely pointed out, well, 555 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 2: he was a part of our large group of potential suspects, 556 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 2: but we didn't have a way to narrow him down 557 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 2: because you don't have his DNA. You've only got the 558 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: DNA of person who committed the crimes. You don't have 559 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 2: anybody compared it to. That's where she comes in, and 560 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: she did, and it was just it's still as remarkable 561 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 2: to me what she was capable of doing, Joe. There 562 00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: are other indicators that maybe Miller never stopped stabbing women, 563 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,640 Speaker 2: never stopped surprising them. We've got evidence that, you know, 564 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: he did a number of things prior to the you know, 565 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 2: as we mentioned, we had the sixteen when he's sixteen, 566 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 2: stabbing a woman getting off a bus. He did leave 567 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 2: Arizona for a while and went to Washington State, and 568 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 2: we've got some cases there. I don't think this is 569 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: the end of the story for Brian Patrick Miller. 570 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's terrifying on many many levels. But let me 571 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: throw a little beam of sunlight in here. Now, they've 572 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: got an evidence trail, and if there are other cases 573 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: that are out there, you can bet your bottom dollar 574 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: that they're going to look at him to see if 575 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 1: he's connected to anything that has happened in that corridor 576 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: on the West coast. Perhaps maybe he's connected to other things, 577 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: and look, there are cases out there, Dave, he could 578 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 1: and you can say this about anything, you know, anybody 579 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: could be connected to it. But he maybe it fits 580 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: some kind of pattern relative to sharp force injuries, geographic 581 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: familiarity typology when it comes to the victims, they look 582 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: a particular way if they like riding bikes, for instance, 583 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: or if they're in a defenseless position where the area 584 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: has been scouted out. Sometimes with these cases you're not 585 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: going to have a sufficient DNA sample. Maybe there could 586 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: be cases where women have been attacked and cut up 587 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: where the fantasy didn't involve completion of the sexual act. 588 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: Where you have an individual that's engaging in just a 589 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: straight up necrophilic event where he's having intercourse with the deceased. 590 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: Maybe he's gotten a little bit wiser at this point 591 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: in time. Remember how we talked about the first victim. Here, 592 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: this young lady was about to turn twenty two years old, 593 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: and you have the frenzied attack. There is a learning curve, 594 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,439 Speaker 1: and you can see with this precious seventeen year old 595 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 1: how it changed over that period of time, and I 596 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: think that that's very telling. You never know, maybe he'll 597 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,760 Speaker 1: be attached to some other cases that might be out there. 598 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: I do know this, Brian Patrick Miller has been convicted 599 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: and he's now been sentenced to death in Arizona. I'm 600 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: Josephcott Morgan and this is body Bags