1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. 2 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff I Never told you Production by 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: Heart Radio, and today we are bringing back an episode 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 2: we did a couple of years ago about forgiveness, and 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 2: I wanted to bring this one back because I've had 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 2: several conversations lately with friends about it and it's been 7 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: fascinating to me having these discussions with them and having 8 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: I just remember doing this episode and it being really 9 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 2: enlightening to me because at the time I was struggling 10 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: with stuff with my dad and I was like, well, 11 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 2: it felt like I had to forgive, But then since then, 12 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: I have forgiven and it did feel like amazing. But 13 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:06,119 Speaker 2: that is obviously not something you owe anybody, and that 14 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 2: is one of the things this episode really drove home 15 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 2: to me. 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 3: And I appreciated that it was this is about you 17 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 3: and what feels good to you or feels right to you. 18 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 2: But it was just fascinating to me that I've had 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: at least three conversations about forgiveness in less than a 20 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: month that were intense and in depth. So I wanted 21 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: to bring back this classic episode. Please enjoy. 22 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff. 23 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: I've never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's how stuff works. Today, 24 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 2: we're actually tackling something that I tried to do a 25 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: year ago. I started working on this outline a year 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: ago and was so confused, used and torn about a 27 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: lot of things that were happening in my life. And uh, 28 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 2: this whole idea of what we're talking about today, forgiveness, right, 29 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: So it's been sitting in our folder for over a year. 30 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been there since I've even started. 31 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would like start on it and then get 32 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: frustrated and go away from it. But it has been 33 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 2: on my mind a lot lately, and we did want 34 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: to talk about forgiveness today, especially since we're in this 35 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: holiday's season as we recorded, and it's supposed to be 36 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: purportedly a time of forgiveness. 37 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: Oh. I thought, that's just when you tell people things, 38 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: you know, like the love actually bit. 39 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: Oh God, don't talk to me about love. Actually no, 40 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 2: I really don't know that much about love actually, other 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: than Alan Rickman was a cheater. 42 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: So they all confess whatever the truths are. And yeah, 43 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: like signage. 45 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 3: Right, right, Like Hey, I know you're. 46 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: Married to my best friend, but hey, I love it. 47 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 48 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 2: We talked about that forever ago, and we actually got 49 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: all our response. People have strong opinions about that movie. 50 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: They do. 51 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it. 52 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: Apparently a lot of people do like it. 53 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 3: No, you know, as long. 54 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 2: As you can recognize some problematic things, that's fine all comedies. Yeah, true, 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: later episode, but for this one trigger warning before we 56 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: get started, for brief mentions of rape and sexual assault 57 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: and domestic violence, but very brief. We're just going to 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: talk about how that can play into forgiveness. And I'm 59 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: someone who I've discovered is terrible at forgiveness. 60 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: I have a huge tolerance. 61 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 2: You can do a lot of things before I say, 62 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 2: you know what, You've done enough, and then I like 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: wipe my hands of you. 64 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: I cannot forgive you. And so I have never actually. 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: Been to the point of granting forgiveness. And I am 66 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: at the point now where I do want to. I'm 67 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 2: in the stage that I want to, but I have 68 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: an emotional block around it. Like even if mentally I 69 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: think you know what, I'm okay, I want to move on, 70 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: there's something that I can't, like go up emotionally, so 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: that's kind of where I am. And a year ago 72 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: I was running on the beltline, which is one of 73 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: my favorite things, and the song It's Quiet Uptown from 74 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: Hamilton came on. If you've never heard that song, it's 75 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:33,840 Speaker 2: about Hamilton and his wife Eliza and the idea of 76 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: forgiveness because he cheated on her. And I know a 77 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: lot of people are going to write in that we 78 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 2: didn't mention that in our political scandal episode. 79 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 3: It's been talked about a lot, but if you guys 80 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 3: want us. 81 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: To talk about it, I happily, happily will I love Hamilton. 82 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: But anyway, I've heard that song one hundreds of times, 83 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 2: probably not even exaggeration one hundred times, but that time 84 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: something about it stopped me in my tracks and I 85 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 2: started crying because of this idea of forgiveness and the 86 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:01,839 Speaker 2: power of it, and something just clicked and it's ever 87 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: since then, it's just kind of been in the back 88 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: of my brain. And I do want to say before 89 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 2: we get into this, forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. 90 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 2: We are not in the business of telling anyone that 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 2: they should forgive someone, and no one else should be either. 92 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 3: There's a long history of women being. 93 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 2: Gaslighted to forgive, or that concept of forgiveness being weaponized 94 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 2: against women, and we are going to touch on that, 95 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: but I just want to say I think forgiveness has 96 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: gotten wrapped up in it's a good thing to do, 97 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: and therefore you should do it. There are benefits to it, 98 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: but you really don't have to if you don't want to, 99 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 2: and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right, 100 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 2: So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine. 101 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to 102 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually 104 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 2: deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to 105 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: get myself in an unhealth the logic trap of deserve. 106 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 3: Oh they are not the person deserved it. 107 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: But it's not about them and what they do or 108 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: do not deserve. It is about you and what you want, 109 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: which is actually a great segue into what forgiveness isn't. 110 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: It does not mean forgetting or minimizing, or excusing or condoning. 111 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: It does not mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and 112 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 2: it doesn't free the other party from being accountable to 113 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: the law. It is about letting go of negative emotions 114 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: that the forgiver wants to let go self. Forgiveness can 115 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 2: also be extremely liberating, extremely. 116 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate. 117 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some 118 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating 119 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: forgiveness with reconciliation would trap someone in that situation in 120 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: only path to closure of moving on. Forgiving when you're 122 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: not ready is really detrimental and forgivens. This is generally 123 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: understood to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value 124 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: of the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings. 125 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 3: And our culture. 126 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: Seems to be completely torn when it comes to forgiveness. 127 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: I mean, I've seen it as being foolish, are we submissive? 128 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something 129 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy 130 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times, we 131 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: may feel pressure from other people to forgive because it's 132 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: the right thing to do, in quotes that it would 133 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: doing so would make you a good person. And at 134 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: the same time, we have so many sayings about forgiveness 135 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: to airs to be human, to forgive is divine, To 136 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: understand all is to forgive all. It just seems we're 137 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: all very conflicted about this idea forgiveness. A study conducted 138 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: by psychologists Charlotte van Eyen Vitfilit found that asking participants 139 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: to remember an instance when someone had offended, hurt, or 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: mistreated them resulted in a whole range of physical responses 141 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: from increased heart rate, blood pressure, muscle tension, and sweating. 142 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: People described the experience as unpleasant. It made them angry, 143 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: It made them sad, It made them feel like they 144 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 2: had less control. When they were asked to imagine forgiving 145 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 2: their offender, these physical responses relaxed. 146 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: A survey of fifteen. 147 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 2: Hundred Americans about how much they practiced forgiveness revealed that 148 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: middle aged and older people forgave at higher rates when 149 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 2: compared to their younger counterparts, and the researchers found a 150 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health and older respondents. 151 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: So, grudges have been linked with increased risk of cardiovascial 152 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: disease and in various ways can compromise our immune systems. 153 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: Grudges can impact future relationships and diminished ability to enjoy 154 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: the present. Forgiveness is important in terms of emotional and 155 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: disengaging from trauma. 156 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 3: Forgiving is often emotion and painful. 157 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,839 Speaker 2: A twenty sixteen study divided a group of one hundred 158 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: and thirty five students who had recently experienced bullying into 159 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: three scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found 160 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: that both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger, 161 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 2: but they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during 162 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: the course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a 163 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: decrease in empowerment, ability to cope, and it self esteem. However, 164 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: the forgiveness group experienced the most stress. 165 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 3: This seems to demonstrate just. 166 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: How difficult and stressful that the act of forgiveness is, 167 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 2: and that healing takes time. Forgiveness may be better in 168 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: the long run, but in the short term it's more 169 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: painful than avoidance or revenge. The researcher suggested that perhaps 170 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 2: a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough time 171 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 2: has passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire forgiveness 172 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: that smart. 173 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: Another study found that in the context of relationships, people 174 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: who are more likely to pursue revenge instead of forgiveness 175 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: or more likely to go through negative consequences and conflict. Ultimately, 176 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: the takeaway was it's really beneficial to have tools and 177 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: strategies ready to deal with the rough times. One of 178 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: these things can be forgiveness. An analysis of seventeen studies 179 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: around relationships and forgiveness found that after the betrayal of 180 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 1: a partner, the relationship goals often change, becoming more about 181 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: evening the score, winning arguments, and other competitive things like that. 182 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 1: So forgiveness is suggested as a way to return to 183 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: more balanced relationship. 184 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, we're not telling anybody to forgive if 185 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: they don't want to, and of course people are complicated. 186 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: Some researchers suggests people that are generally happier can more 187 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: easily forgive and report higher levels of happiness. When people 188 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 2: are feeling better about their transgressor like after an apology 189 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 2: or some type of physical restitution. They usually experience a 190 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 2: decrease in physical arousal meaning like symptoms, high blood pressure, 191 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However, 192 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse. 193 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: So yeah, so something to keep an eye on. 194 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found 195 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: decreased stress levels and positive health benefits just when adopting 196 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: a forgiving attitude. Since stress has a cumulative effect, these 197 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: benefits were more pronounced in older folks. 198 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: Some studies suggest that the part of the brain associated 199 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 2: with forgiveness is the limbic system, not the part of 200 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: the brain associated with reasoned judgment as previously thought. The 201 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: act of forgiveness has long been thought to be an 202 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: emotional one, and it is, but recent studies indicate it 203 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 2: is a cognitive one as well. Therefore, experts recommend cognitive 204 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 2: reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily, revenge is easier 205 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 2: than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal with someone who 206 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: would harm you is to avoid them or to hit back. 207 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: According to psychologists, revenge is unique in that it is 208 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: motivated by hate, which makes it different than anger. And 209 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: the belief that just by existing someone is doing you harm. 210 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: Revenge is often disproportionate to the original act that inspired 211 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: the revenge. 212 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: That's so many movies. 213 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 3: I know. 214 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 2: I was about to say I had to write a 215 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: paper on this in French in college about how why 216 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 2: is it most of our action movies start with the 217 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 2: main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere, right, 218 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: and it's like. 219 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 3: So violent and over the top. 220 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I was about to talk about never mind because 221 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: it's too many, because there was like I was thinking 222 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: about The Joker, but I don't want to say anything 223 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: that could be a spoiler for those who haven't seen 224 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: it or want to see it. All of that. But yeah, yeah, 225 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: kind of. I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory. 226 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: That's all in the creation of Batman alone. We know 227 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: that backstory, right, revenges. 228 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 2: I have to say, I get that peal of revenge stories, 229 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: but they do make me kind of uncomfortable. Yeah, it's 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: like it's something about them as always sort of unsettled me. 231 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're dark. I guess they're very dark. Yeah for sure. Yeah, 232 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: so let's talk about the how to forgive, right, psychologist 233 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: Robert Enwright proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger, 234 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer, 235 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped. 236 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: You can only really forgive for what people have done 237 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 1: to you. 238 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me because the 239 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 2: example they gave is if you were as a child 240 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 2: you witnessed your say, father abuse your mother, you can't 241 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 2: forgive him for doing that. You can forgive him for 242 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: the pain and fear and just hurt that he caused you. 243 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: But it has to be specific to what happened to you. 244 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: So if you are the abused, yes, you are the 245 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,719 Speaker 2: one to forgive, right. Yeah, it's a bit different when 246 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility is important, 247 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: but holding onto shame and guilt for too long isn't helpful. 248 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: The first step is similar or recognizing that you are 249 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then you 250 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and what 251 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: was in your control and what wasn't in your control. 252 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 2: Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a 253 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: similar situation. 254 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: In the future. 255 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 2: When you've taken these steps forgive yourself allowed or on paper, 256 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: then if another party is involved, apologize. We're going to 257 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: get more into apology later, but you apologize genuinely and 258 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: not expecting anything from the other person, and then take 259 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: steps to make things right. If you're looking to forgive 260 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: but struggling, there are support groups and counseling out there 261 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: that can help. Some other tips are practicing empathy, reflecting 262 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: on times you've hurt others and what was going on 263 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: in your head when you did right in your journal 264 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 2: if you have a journal. If you don't, I recommend 265 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: getting one or meditation. Also, if you can't forgive, patience, 266 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: be patient. It is hard and it shakes time. 267 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and again we're not saying that you have to Yep, 268 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: this is completely based on you. And also if, and 269 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: this is a big if the wrong doer shows no 270 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: signs of changing, it is toxics. It is an unhealthy 271 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: relationship and it will always be unhealthy. 272 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: Right. 273 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, distance from someone like that. You can still forgive 274 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 2: if you would like to, but distance is key. 275 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 3: That person will keep hurting you. 276 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: Because you're forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the harm. 277 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: That's happening to you. 278 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, And we did want to look specifically at 279 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: some some studies around women and forgiveness. But first we 280 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: have a quick break for word from a sponsor and 281 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: we're back, Thank you sponsor. 282 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 3: Okay. So, there actually have been a. 283 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 2: Lot of studies looking into this. One of them is 284 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: from twenty eleven. It's a study from the University of 285 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: the Basque Country and it looked into gender differences and 286 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: forgiveness and the study found that women are better at forgiving. 287 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 2: The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men. 288 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: That was one of the reasons they gave, which is 289 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 2: key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women, 290 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 2: seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well. 291 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 2: Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven, 292 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 2: they also felt those benefits. 293 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 1: I think holding on the things is just tiring. That's 294 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: what I've learned as I'm getting older, and I'm like, 295 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: oh God, I'm just tired of being angry at you. 296 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 297 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak, 298 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of 299 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 1: depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men 300 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: fared better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link. 301 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is 302 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 1: seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as 303 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men 304 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: are less forgiving than women when. 305 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: It comes to sexual abuse against women. There are a 306 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: lot of misconceptions that to forgive means that you don't 307 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: report sexual assault, or that if you do, you haven't 308 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 2: forgiven the person, or that forgiving someone means that. 309 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 3: You're totally cool with them. 310 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: None of these things are true, and pressing women to 311 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,400 Speaker 2: forgive an abuser who is unrepetent and still in their 312 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: lives is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness 313 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,119 Speaker 2: a Special Case argues that women are a special class 314 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: of victims impossible forgivers, and that women quote may have 315 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on 316 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: to ask why is it that we have so much 317 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: trouble with. 318 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 3: The woman who will not forgive? 319 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: Janis Hawkins's essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly 320 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: Psychoanalytic and cultural perspectives on forgiveness also digs into the 321 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: feminism of forgiveness and goes out of her way to 322 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: make the point that forgiveness is neither good or bad. 323 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 2: She writes, as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak 324 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 2: up and claim new rights, including their right to disengage 325 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: abusive relationships, the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically, 326 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 2: forgiveness benefits them for hurting other people. 327 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 3: Right, and this brings us to gaslighting. 328 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: Women are frequently made to feel guilty if they don't forgive. 329 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: Scorned, bitter cold. 330 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 2: These are ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them 331 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: to forgive. It's another way of dismissing women as emotional 332 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: and invalidating their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the 333 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 2: story so that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational, 334 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 2: sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her. Any negative 335 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 2: emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be the 336 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 2: better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving. It's 337 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: the choice, very personal one. 338 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, So we've seen examples with the Kavanaugh case in 339 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: itself that like it's so long ago, he was just 340 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: a kid. Why can't you let that go? You're just 341 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: being petty? Is so absurd that they're that more likely 342 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: to call her names rather than keep accountability for those 343 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: who were responsible for the action. 344 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. 345 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 2: When Selma Hayek wrote in The New York Times about 346 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment, 347 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: one of the reasons she gave was that she was 348 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: proud of her capacity for forgiveness. And this essay was 349 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 2: when she was sort of being like, this is why 350 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 2: I didn't do it, And I know that these are 351 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: I should have or I not should have, But it 352 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: was her looking back on why she. 353 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: Didn't, right, And that makes perfect sense. Yeah. So some 354 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: arguments put forth that for some women trying to distance 355 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: themselves from the angry feminist stereo type, they might be 356 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: more forgiving, which we know that's always a really bad negative. 357 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: A similar argument can has been made that black people 358 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: are asked and expected to forgive white racist without ever 359 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: getting so much as an apology or even recognition, which 360 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: we can talk about with the slavery and just people 361 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: being like, why you keep bringing that up, and it's like, 362 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: what the hell y'all? Yeah, really, why because it's important 363 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: and we need to acknowledge the trauma that it has 364 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: caused and it still continues to cause. So let's talk 365 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: about religion because I think that's one of the big 366 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: things where we talk about forgiveness. Yes, there's sixty two 367 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: passages in the Bible that include the word forgive, and 368 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: then there's twenty seven passages that contain the word forgiveness. 369 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 3: That is a lot, fair a lot. 370 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person, 371 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 2: especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous 372 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church 373 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 2: leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven, 374 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:44,439 Speaker 2: and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in 375 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all. 376 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 3: Only God can forgive. So there's a lot going on there. 377 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 2: There are a lot of pressures here around this idea 378 00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 2: of forgiveness. 379 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,120 Speaker 3: I think it's just all. 380 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: Idea in it self forgiveness and what it's supposed to do, 381 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: and it is kind of absolving people who have committed 382 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: sins essentially, and I think it is a good balance 383 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: to understand what is right for you. 384 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and we do have a little bit more 385 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: about that, but first we have one more quick break 386 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: for word from our sponsor. 387 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 3: And we're back. Thank you sponsor. 388 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: So I guess one of the biggest takeaways for me 389 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: is that I am going to reframe how I think 390 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: about forgiveness. We're going to make it all about me, 391 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 2: because in this case, I am the wrong and I'm 392 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: just gonna think of it almost like it has nothing 393 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: to do with that person. If you are the ones 394 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: seeking forgiveness, which can mean just apologizing and leaving the 395 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 2: other person the hell alone, make it all about them. 396 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: And yeah, a few situations are so black and white, 397 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: it's been for me. Everybody has such a specific story 398 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: and it's complex in its own way, so it's hard 399 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: to give really good specific advice. But here are some 400 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: general ideas that might help, and a quick note about 401 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 2: how to apologize. A good apology can open up a 402 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: dialogue and is the beginnings of re establishing trust, or 403 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 2: it can be. It entails that you show remorse, you 404 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 2: acknowledge that you caused hurt. It has to be sincere 405 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 2: and not flip it around to make it the other 406 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 2: person's fault, like it was just a joke. 407 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 3: I'm sorry you felt hurt. 408 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 2: I think that's probably one of the biggest sins when 409 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: it comes to apologies is that you make excuses. 410 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: And I've done it too. You make excuses for your 411 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: behavior and make it like the other person was overreact. 412 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: Right, So if you're apologizing with it but yes, don't 413 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: do that, or if you're apologizing I'm sorry you right, 414 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: but you statements, go ahead and stop. 415 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's better. 416 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 2: A short apology is better than any kind of long 417 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: winded here's my excuse. A good apology also involves making amends, 418 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: providing something actionable to show you're serious, putting yourself in 419 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 2: the other person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why 420 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: they were hurt. Then offer steps to make sure that 421 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: whatever it was doesn't happen again. Yes, do not make 422 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 2: it about you. Apologies also got to be said, are 423 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: sometimes hurtful and unwelcome. So if you're doing it to 424 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: make yourself feel better, that is not a good apology. 425 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 2: And also remember impact matters more than intention. I think 426 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: a lot of people get caught in that that trap 427 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: as well, and I can and have written a paper 428 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: on this. 429 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: My infamous essay about doing the dishes. 430 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 2: It was about a lot more than that, but I 431 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 2: use the dishes as a case study. 432 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 3: Nice I really don't like doing dishes. I really really don't. 433 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 2: And then I've kind of noticed in my life I 434 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: feel like some people blame me for things, and I'm 435 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: not sure what they are. So it's hard to apologize, 436 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 2: or I'm not even sure that I need to apologize. 437 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 2: But this is a time when I need to remember 438 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 2: all of the episodes where we have sung the praises 439 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: of communication. 440 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Yes, always talk to each other yep. When one of 441 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby's alleged victims was asked by Anderson Cooper, can 442 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: you forget something like this? Her response was, I forgave 443 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,880 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby years ago for me. When you hold onto 444 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: resentment for someone like that, it's not hurting them, it's 445 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: only hurting you. And I think that's very valid for 446 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: all of us. I think I've felt the same way, 447 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: and I'm sure you have to when you have been 448 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: a victim from someone that you may never see again, yep, 449 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 1: that you have to forgive, maybe not even just forgive, 450 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: but let it go. Yeah, And that's the best you 451 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,120 Speaker 1: can do for yourself. 452 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's recently. It came up in one 453 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 2: of my therapy sessions lately and she said there's a 454 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 2: quote like not forgiving is like drinking poison and expecting 455 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: the other person to die, or not not forgiving but 456 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 2: not letting go, because yeah, they probably in some cases 457 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 2: at least they don't care. 458 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 3: It's not anything to them, right. 459 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 2: It is difficult, though it's easier said thanne. Re understand that, 460 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 2: And I still have questions around forgiveness. I got caught 461 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 2: up in this whole idea of some things may just 462 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 2: truly be unforgivable. But I do think I want to forgive. 463 00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can, 464 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: I have to deal with a lot of the fallout 465 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 2: that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's 466 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: the emotional block is that I've just been avoiding. And 467 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: apparently this is an idea that's been on my brain 468 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: for a very long time because one of my favorite 469 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 2: things I've written, the D and D character that I 470 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 2: played to finish out the end of the story. 471 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: I like that you were just having like rings on 472 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: across our death. 473 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 3: To see the miniature. I have many of her. 474 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 2: It's all about forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge and redemption, 475 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 2: and it's interesting to see how it's evolved as I've 476 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: continued to write it. But that is about what we 477 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: have to say on forgiveness today. We would love to 478 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or just stories they 479 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 2: have about forgiveness or not forgiveness, and we have heard 480 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 2: from some listeners already that we would like to read 481 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 2: here now. Marie wrote, I was super excited when I 482 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 2: saw you doing spooky episodes for October, especially the Female 483 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 2: Monsters episode. I just want to tell you about one 484 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: of my favorite books, which not only features a badass 485 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: monster eating primordial goddess who very often refers to herself 486 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: as a monster as a protagonist, but she's also got 487 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: a female romantic interest. The book is called The One 488 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 2: Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews. 489 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 3: And it's an incredible book. 490 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 2: As a recently out lesbian, I've been trying to consume 491 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: as much LGBTQ plus fiction as possible, mostly sci fi 492 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 2: fantasy literature involving lesbians. I've had to scour the internet 493 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 2: and bookstores to get my fix, and I've noticed that 494 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: there's definitely been an increase in the amount of representation 495 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: in fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway, I just want to 496 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: tell you all about my favorite book. I'd love it 497 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 2: if you did an episode on queer literature or badass 498 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 2: lesbians in literature. 499 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 3: We would love that too. 500 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons I wanted to read this 501 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 2: is listeners, if you've got some examples, send them our way. 502 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And 503 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 2: then we have a letter from Marissa. My friend Marissa. 504 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: Out you like that? 505 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: No, no, no, but she wrote this and I responded 506 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 2: like I do to any listener, as if I didn't 507 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 2: know her. So I hope you enjoyed that, MRSA. She wrote, 508 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 2: I have to throw my two cents in on my 509 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 2: experience with the opioid crisis. First, my background is a 510 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 2: traveling er nurse. At this point in my career, I've 511 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: worked in six different states Georgia, Massachusetts, California, Alasta, Colorado, 512 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: and Maine as a medical professional in the trenches of 513 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: this opioid epidemic. I can assure you this is truly 514 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 2: a problem everywhere. However, there is one er assignment that 515 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 2: stands out. This community was being devastated by heroin. Every 516 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: night we had at least a handful of od's overdoses. 517 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: This was a big seventy five bed er. Narcan had 518 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 2: to be so readily available that there were internasal narcan 519 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: rapid response boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations 520 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: all around the er. For instance, they had a box 521 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,959 Speaker 2: and triage due to so many people being dropped off 522 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: in front with od's not breathing. All of the police, 523 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,360 Speaker 2: firefighters and ems carried narcan and knew how to use it. 524 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 2: I would like to share a little narcan knowledge with you. First, 525 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 2: you must know what a drug half life is, the 526 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 2: time it takes the drug concentration to reach fifty percent 527 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 2: less than the starting dose in the body. I don't 528 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 2: want to get too technical, but essentially, heroin works longer 529 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: than the antidote narcannaloxone. Narcan brings them out of their 530 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 2: high fast, and many times these slumped over lifeless ODS 531 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: would reanimate rather violently and combatively. It's hard to rationalize 532 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: with an addict who's come violently out of their high 533 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: to stay there recommended four hours after narcan. So essentially 534 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: I'm trying to let anyone out there that has to 535 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 2: administered narkan know to keep watching your friend or loved one. 536 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: The half life of narcan is shorter than that of heroin, 537 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 2: so essentially you can be revived from the brink of 538 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: an od death. But if you leave too soon or 539 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: not watch can get into the same situation again. The 540 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 2: drug wave could still crash over you and take you under, 541 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: so continue to watch someone for several hours after administering narkan. Also, 542 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 2: Narcan naloxone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy 543 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 2: without a prescription. If you're using, please have this safety 544 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 2: plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get 545 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're 546 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: using know where the narcan is and how to use it. 547 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: Call nine one one if the person is not breathing. 548 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: Those that have allergy reactions carry EpiPens epinephrine. If you're using, 549 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 2: you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want 550 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan. 551 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 2: Enough people have died. This epidemic is destroying families. Please 552 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 2: don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a lot 553 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 2: of good information. I didn't know that. Yeah, I didn't 554 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: know that either. So thanks Marissa for our share fighting. 555 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, the good fight is a nurse. Thank you so 556 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 1: much for what you're doing. 557 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and thanks for writing in, taking the time and 558 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 2: sharing that knowledge. And we would love to hear from 559 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 2: other listeners. Thanks to these two for writing in. If 560 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 2: you would like to write to us, you can Our 561 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,440 Speaker 2: email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. 562 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 2: You can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff 563 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: Podcast or on Instagram at Stuff We'll Never Told You. 564 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 2: Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard, Hey yy, 565 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 2: and thanks to you for listening. Stuff Owner told you 566 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 2: the protection of iHeartRadio's how Stuff Works. For more podcasts 567 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit our heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 568 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.