1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline 3 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: and I'm Kristen, and today we're talking about a certain 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: group of women, women of a certain age that you 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: might say. And Kristin and I got the idea for 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: this podcast topic when we were researching for our Mama's 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: Boy episode and our Grandmother's episode, because people in our culture, 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: it should come as no surprise, especially if you've listened 9 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: to our Grandmother's episode, that it's very common for women 10 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: of this certain age, whether that's middle aged or slightly older, 11 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: to just be sort of pushed aside. And so we 12 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: wanted to take a look at this group of women specifically, 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: but also sort of where this expression even came from. Yeah, 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: and and there is another quote that inspired this pod cast, 15 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: which came from Bossy Pants by Tina Fey, and she wrote, 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: the definition of crazy in show business is a woman 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,160 Speaker 1: who keeps talking even after no one wants to have 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: sex with her anymore. And it gets that the heart 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: of this sort of devaluing that can happen to women 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: as they get older. And so first up, though, let's 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: talk about just what age is a certain age anyway, 22 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: And how did this whole women of a certain age 23 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: phrasing come about? Yeah, there were some great posts that 24 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: we were reading about this. One was a gramophobia, and 25 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: one was for the New York Times by William Sapphire. 26 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: But they point out that this phrase originated in the 27 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: eighteenth century and O. E. Ed. The Oxford English Dictionary 28 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: defines it as a time when quote one is no 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: longer young, but which politeness forbids to be specified to minutely, 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: usually referring to some age between forty and sixty. And 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: it's mostly said of women. And it sites the first 32 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: use in English in seventeen fifty four and Connoisseur magazine, 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: And I believe it was from an anonymous letter that 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: was sent to the magazine, which included I could not 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: help wishing that some middle term was invented between miss 36 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: and missus to be adopted at a certain age by 37 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: all females not inclined to matrimony. I like that the 38 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: way these people spoke throughout this whole time period was 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: so euphemistic. Well, and doesn't it have a certain hint 40 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: of spinsterhood? Spinsterhood but also like possibly a fear of 41 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: women who were outside of sexual norms, you mean women 42 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: who might like other women outside or not inclined to matrimony. 43 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: But it was also used to describe men in its 44 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: early days, and and still I mean there was even 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: a show called Men of a Certain Age starring Ray 46 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: Romano and the Guy from Quantum Leap and now the 47 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 1: Guy from Brooklyn, which apparently is great but I haven't 48 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: seen it. But a lot of times when it was 49 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: in ye old days used to describe men, it had 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: more of a connotation of esteem and dignity rather than 51 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,839 Speaker 1: marital status. So for example, in seventeen fifty one there 52 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: was a letter from the Earl of Chesterfield to his son, 53 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: who wrote, you would not talk of your pleasures to 54 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: men of a sudden age gravity and dignity. They would 55 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: justly expect from young people a degree of deference and regard. Interesting. 56 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: I love that gender division. Women of a certain age 57 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: or spinsters men of a certain age are dignified. But alright, 58 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: so I mean, speaking of gender, we also have to 59 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: talk about the French because this same phrase is popping 60 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: up in the French language around the same time that 61 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: it had a holly separate connotation, much sexier than in English. Yeah, 62 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: there are similar sources talked about how fem donage ltem, 63 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: which is the phrase in French. First of all, it 64 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: can be applied gender NEUTRALI so again you have it 65 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: being talked about to women but also to men. But 66 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to women, it was usually suggestive of 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: an older woman who was teaching a younger man the 68 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: ways of how do you say sex? She was deflowering 69 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: a young man. Deflowering a young man, so they're the 70 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: connotation is much more positive. Yeah. Yeah, I was sort 71 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: of like, well you got the I got this older woman, 72 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 1: you have a fem donal shell thong, Yes, wanting to 73 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: give you a little education. But it still implies obviously 74 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: active sexuality, active sexual interest, as opposed to even from 75 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: the earliest stages in English, definitely implying dried up spinster. 76 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: Put her in a closet and for get about her exactly, Oh, 77 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: put her in a closet man uh. Williams. Sapphire, though, 78 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: writing about it for The New York Times a while back, 79 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: asserted that it came back into common usage in the 80 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: US with the nineteen book by psychotherapist Lillian B. Ruben 81 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: called Women of a Certain Age the Midlife Search for Self, 82 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: which in that book in seventy nine, Midlife the Certain 83 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: Age spanned thirty five to fifty four, But when he 84 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: interviewed her for this column a number of years later, 85 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 1: she talked about how a certain age had definitely moved 86 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: up because we're living longer, we're delaying marriage and childbirth, 87 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: et cetera. So a certain age in her mind when 88 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: she was talking to Sapphire was closer to we would 89 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: probably starting around fifty four and not thirty five. Yeah. Well, 90 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,559 Speaker 1: because I was thinking about my own mother in terms 91 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 1: of all of this women of a certain age stuff, 92 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: and thinking about how, you know, my mother is so 93 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: very Southern and adorable and silly and would never would 94 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: never call herself a woman of a certain age, because 95 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: even though I feel like that is a very Southern thing, 96 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: it's very euphemistic Southern people. We all use euphemisms all 97 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: the time, bless her heart, stuff like that. There's such 98 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: still a negative old person connotation with that. It hasn't 99 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: I feel like we still haven't reached a point where 100 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 1: a woman of a certain age is quite as dignified 101 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: as if we said a man of a certain age, right, 102 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: because again, it's this whole issue of women aging in 103 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: our society is a wholly different process in a lot 104 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: of ways than men aging, and not just because of 105 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,920 Speaker 1: the biological phenomenon of menopause. Like the way that you 106 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: are treated is is usually quite distinct. And it seems 107 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: like today women of a certain age is a euphemism 108 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: for women over fifty or even over sixty, um. But 109 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: what do we really mean about it, because clearly there's 110 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: still this discomfort or sense of being impolite if you 111 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: call a woman by her exact age, if she's you know, 112 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: over forty, that's when you just start getting fuzzy with 113 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: the numbers, because oh well, if you admit that you 114 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: are fifty five or however old you are, then the 115 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: dominoes are going to fall, and all of a sudden, 116 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: you're in the closet with all the with all the 117 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: other women, all the other worn out old gals, and 118 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: on top of the age factor, they're also seems to 119 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: be the implication in the phrase women of a certain 120 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: age of women who have gone through menopause and can 121 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 1: no longer have children, because when sure with women aging, 122 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: there's the loss of female beauty and that aspect of 123 00:07:53,960 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: sexual desirability. But there's also something with that transition into 124 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: infertility as well, sort of a general insinuation of almost 125 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: societal uselessness exactly exactly because obviously, as man aged they 126 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: can they can keep on fathering children, but as women aged, 127 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: it stopped. So then it becomes a question of, well, 128 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: what what does that feel like? Because so much of 129 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: this is discussed in euphemistic terms. I mean, we're even 130 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: calling it women of a certain age episode, But when 131 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: you talk to women who are in that certain age bracket, 132 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: there is one word that comes up over and over 133 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: and over again, and that is invisible. Yeah, to the 134 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: point where it's even called the invisible woman's syndrome. And 135 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: it's very well illustrated, as is Tina Face quote from 136 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: Bossy Pants, very well illustrated. In two pieces on invisibility 137 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: that we read, one from Tira harp As in Feminine 138 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: Sting and one from Tracy Nes Deli in The Star. 139 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: And Tracy Nes Deley specifically like I really felt it 140 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: when she was writing about she walked up to these 141 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: two men at a party and was talking to them, 142 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: and she realized very in this very awful moment that 143 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: they were essentially humoring her and like couldn't wait to 144 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: get away from her. And it's that whole attitude of like, 145 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: why are you still talking like you You are not young, 146 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: You're not you don't have that youthful beauty. You're obviously 147 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: not this young, beautiful, fertile woman anymore. What are you 148 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: even doing here? Yeah, And in describing it, as she 149 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: talks about how she had a conversation with a friend 150 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: and they were talking about age and that invisibility factor, 151 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 1: and she says, quote, as older women, we were no 152 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: longer desirable, no longer perceived as anything but taking up 153 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: space a younger person could put better use to in 154 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: the job, in the relationship, in life, and Harpas echoed 155 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: a similar sentiment. Yeah, she said that it's made up 156 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: of these small daily cuts. You're no longer being asked 157 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: if there's a chance you're pregnant. At the doctor's office, 158 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: the cashier, might you know, ask about if you want 159 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: to senior discount. That was a huge thing from my mother, 160 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 1: a huge thing because she really after she started getting 161 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: asked by cashiers if she wanted the senior citizen discount, 162 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: I think she started dyeing her hair blonde. Uh, it's suits, sir, 163 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 1: but yeah, she she was not happy about that. Um. 164 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: But it's this whole thing of like, all of a sudden, 165 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: you're not being glanced at, You're not being checked out 166 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: people on the subway, aren't. You know, they don't look 167 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: excited when you sit down. They just look up and 168 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 1: look through you. Yeah, and this is sort of off topic, 169 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: but it reminded me of talking to a guy friend 170 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 1: of mine who has lost a lot of his hair, 171 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: about how when he was in college and he had 172 00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: a full head of dark, curly hair, he enjoyed walking 173 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: around campus because he would, you know, every now and 174 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: then like catch a young lady giving him the eye, 175 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: checking him out. And he talked about how he's sort 176 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: of gone through this morning process that he feels when 177 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: he walks around now and that doesn't happen like no one, 178 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: no one looks twice at him. Interesting. Yeah, different aspects 179 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: of our physical presence that indicate youth and fertility exactly exactly, 180 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 1: um and over at the Sydney Morning Harold in Australia, 181 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,839 Speaker 1: Kathy Letty was writing about the same kind of thing, 182 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: and I was actually astonished how many personal essays there 183 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: were just on this topic. Um she she said quote, 184 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: if we weren't invisible, if we saw normal looking women 185 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: over fifty on television and in movies not playing grandma's, 186 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: then perhaps women would feel more confident about saying no 187 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: to cosmetic surgery. And it is interesting that she brought 188 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: up just that visibility factor on screen as well, because 189 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: there's this sense in women's day to day lives as 190 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: the age of becoming gradually invisible. And then if you 191 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: look on screen, a lot of times women of a 192 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: certain age are invisible there as well. And we're going 193 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: to talk more about that when we come right back 194 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: from a quick break and now back to the show. Okay, So, 195 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,199 Speaker 1: if we're speaking more about pop culture and the way 196 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: that women of a certain age are portrayed on screen, 197 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: whether that's TV or film. Typically, if we look way 198 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: back at actresses in in older classic films, that whole 199 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: topic sort of was treated as definitely a negative and 200 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: women were definitely fighting against the whole aging process. Yeah, 201 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: especially if you look at movies where the sent troll 202 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: character is a woman over forty, such as Margot played 203 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: by Betty Davis and All About Eve or Norma Desmond 204 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: played by Glorious Swanson and Sunset Boulevard, or probably most iconically, 205 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: Mrs Robinson played by an under forty I believe she 206 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: was thirty six at the time, and Bancroft in The Graduate. 207 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: A lot of it revolves around these women tragically fighting 208 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: to hold on to their youth and also, by virtue 209 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: of that, their sexual desirability, right, And I think that 210 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: the word tragic is such a big part of that. 211 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: I mean, especially if you do think about Mrs Robinson, 212 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: It's just she's this character that you as the audience 213 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: are just meant to look at her and go, oh, god, well, 214 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: and she clearly hates her daughter for the fact that 215 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: she still retains the beauty and the vitality that she 216 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,199 Speaker 1: feels was stolen from her, right exactly. And so as 217 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: we move into the late nineteenth snies, it's up until 218 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: this time that basically women who are over fifty on 219 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: screen are depicted as either a sexual mothers or a 220 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: sexual spinsters or crazy or both. Yeah, and um. We 221 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: found a lot of this information from a great paper 222 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: by Rose Whites published in two thousand ten and Sexuality 223 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: and Culture called Changing the Scripts Midlife Women's Sexuality and 224 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: contemporary US film and she cited a study that looked 225 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: at the top one hundred grossing films from the nineteen 226 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: forties through the nineteen eighties, and this really breaks down 227 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: this invisibility factor. It found that twenty percent of the 228 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,400 Speaker 1: central characters in those films were men over thirty five, 229 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: compared to only three per cent of the central characters 230 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: or women over thirty five. Yeah, and in whites. As study, 231 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: she looked at four thousand films released between two thousand 232 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: and two thousand seven and found that only five of 233 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: them portrayed a midlife female character engaging in any sort 234 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: of romantic activity beyond a kiss. Only three of the 235 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: films she looked at depicted the quote female gays as 236 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: opposed to the male gaze. But it's always used as 237 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: a source of humor or discomfort or emotional pain. So 238 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: even when a woman is displaying some sort of sexual desire, 239 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: it's always played off as like, oh, it's not cute, 240 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: that's sad. Yeah, And you would rarely see their bodies 241 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: in any state of undress unless you have the classic 242 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: Hollywood beds seeing the postcoital bed scene where somehow the 243 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: sheets just magically come up only to cover the guys 244 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: like up to his hit bones, but they somehow go 245 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: all the way up to her clavical those L shaped 246 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: sheets a really hand. I know that there's they're so 247 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: hot in Hollywood, um, but if there is any implicated 248 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: aation of any nudity beyond that, then it's usually a 249 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: comedic device because there still seems to be this discomfort 250 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: with middle age or even post middle age sexuality in women. 251 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: So I mean we've progressed a little bit in our 252 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: storytelling in film to encompass more stories about women who 253 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: might be postman aposal, but they're still as whites of 254 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: study finds pretty few and far between, and when it 255 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: comes to the women that they focus on, it's even 256 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: more telling that even though they might be affirmative of 257 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: women's sexuality in midlife or later in life as a 258 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: healthy part of life, but you only see white women 259 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: who are usually also slim and conventionally attractive, often affluent, 260 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: who are being portrayed, and these films that she looked at, 261 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: it's it's not like they're doing a good job either 262 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: challenging the typical older man younger woman dynamic. I mean, 263 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 1: especially if you look at things with if if they 264 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: even try to introduce an older woman younger man dynamic 265 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: that is also typically played for laughs or for sympathy, 266 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: you know, old Samantha and Sex in the City dating 267 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: hot young Smith or whatever, and it's like these women 268 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: are almost portrayed as being just pathetic characters. For instance, 269 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: in the two thousand three movies Something's Gotta Give, starring 270 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: Diane Keaton and Jack Nicholson, it starts out with Diane 271 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: Keaton being pursued by a much younger man and Jack 272 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: Nicholson also dating Diane Keaton's daughter in the film, so 273 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: he's dating a much younger woman. But the happily ever 274 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: after in that movie is them ending up together. Because 275 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: even still today, I think it is rare to see 276 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: in a movie something along the lines of a Lost 277 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: in Translation, where you have a much older Bill Murray 278 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: pursuing a much younger Scarlett Johansson. And that's totally fine, 279 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: and we find it emotionally evocative, But if say the 280 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: roles were somehow reversed, there's usually still a sentiment of 281 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 1: much older woman pursuing a much younger man is being 282 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: either a comedic device or she's more of a Mrs 283 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: Robinson kind of character or just pathetic, or there's something 284 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: wrong with him, and she will be disposed of the 285 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: older woman at some point and he will find someone 286 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: age appropriate for him, or vice versa. Right, because in 287 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 1: all the movies that Rose vites Uh surveyed, she found 288 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,160 Speaker 1: that of the movies that did portray an older woman 289 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: being in a relationship of some kind with a younger man, 290 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: none of them remained intact by the end of the movie. 291 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: And while Whites and a couple of other papers on 292 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: this topic point out that really post something's got to give, 293 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: in two thousand three there have been more movies portraying 294 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: this pretty common plot line of woman in midlife or 295 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:57,200 Speaker 1: postman aposle, married maybe single, who through a you know, 296 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: a variety of circumstances, maybe comedic, maybe dramatic, rediscovers her 297 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: sexuality and and rediscovering that sexuality is usually seen as 298 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: a good thing, and it's a healthy thing. But it's 299 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: still we're still seeing it through a very narrow kind 300 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 1: of um portrayal, because you still don't see just and say, 301 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: an average looking middle aged woman with an average looking body, 302 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: or let's just you know, certainly no diversity really whatsoever. Yeah, 303 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,199 Speaker 1: it's almost like filmmakers and producers are trying to just 304 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: dip a toe into this topic and say, oh, well, 305 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: we'll give it a shot. But it has to be 306 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 1: Diane Keaton. It's gotta be Dyane Keaton. And I love Diane, 307 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,159 Speaker 1: I'm sure, and I enjoy something's gotta give. But hey, Hollywood, 308 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: something's gotta give. Am I right, You're right, Christian? And 309 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: TV has figured it out. TV has kind of figured 310 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: it out. Yeah, we have great characters on TV that 311 00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: would qualify as this women of a certain age group. Um, 312 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: I know. I started thinking about this. I have a 313 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 1: ton of favorites. Claire Underwood House of Cards could be 314 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: qualified as a woman of a certain age And she's 315 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: devious and sexy too. Yeah, what is so great about her? 316 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: She's not too dimensional at all. She that woman is 317 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: and she's not there just to be evil. She's not 318 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: there just to be sexy. She's not there just to 319 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: be a plotter or someone taking advantage of it. She's 320 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: all of these amazing things. She gets to be multifaceted. 321 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: That character does. Um. I also love Brenda Lee Johnson 322 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: from The Closer. Kia Sedgwick's character in that show. Um, 323 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: Joan Campbell on Covert Affairs, Olivia Benson on Lawn Order 324 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 1: s VU and uh, longtime listeners to the podcast, you 325 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: should not be surprised when I cite Madeline from La 326 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: fem Nikita that was on USA several years ago. She Uh, 327 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: she was one B a B. How old was she 328 00:20:53,920 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be? Um? Probably in her fifties. Oh wow, Nika. Okay. Well, 329 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: and it's interesting that you bring up Kia Sedgwick on 330 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: The Closer because that show is cited as a game 331 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: changer in terms of because it was so successful when 332 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: it first came out, and since it was led by 333 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: a woman over forty, that's when networks supposedly you know, 334 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: started thinking, oh, well this can happen and people will 335 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: still watch it even though it's about a woman who 336 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: is over forty. And UM, this is actually something that 337 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: Jennifer Key, she wrote an entire blog series about over 338 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: at Bitch called Women of a Certain Age that I 339 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: highly recommend you check out because she looks at women 340 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: over forty on TV and all sorts of from all 341 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: sorts of angles, and just a couple of other women 342 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: that I want to throw out my favorite Connie Britten, 343 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: love her. I love her portrayal even in Friday Night Lights, 344 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: American Horror Story and Nashville. She is interesting and thoughtful 345 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: and still sexual in all of them. And I also 346 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: really enjoyed uh, Laura Dern and Enlightened on HBO. There's 347 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: Laura Lenney in The Big Sea and of course Liz Women. 348 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: Come on, come on, we got we got Liz, and 349 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: so many characters on Orange Is the New Black, and 350 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: they're probably some fans as well of Cougar Town starring 351 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: Courtney Cox. So it does seem like TV is a 352 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 1: friendlier place for older women, although I don't even like 353 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: terming like women over forty is being older, because even 354 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: that just seems so so stuck in the past. Well, 355 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: but it is a better place for a demographic, a 356 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: section of the population that is invisible elsewhere. Exactly exactly 357 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 1: we could say, and in terms of these characters, that 358 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 1: that writers allow them to retain their sexuality in these 359 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: TV shows and whatever we should to talk about real 360 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: women and real women's sexuality. Um, there was a study 361 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: out of the University of Texas that talked about women 362 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: in their thirties and early forties being significantly more sexual 363 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: than younger women, and that includes having more intense and 364 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: frequent sexual fantasizing and actually having more sex. And the 365 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: theories behind this is that it all roots back to evolution. 366 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: According to David Imbuss, who is one of the researchers 367 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: on this, that women middle aged women have higher sex 368 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: drives because it's more challenging for older women to get pregnant. 369 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: So when you're younger, if you want to get pregnant, 370 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to have sex as many times, so 371 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: your sex drive doesn't necessarily need to compel you to 372 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: to do it. So the thinking is that older women's 373 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: sex drive is ramped up, which was nature's way of 374 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 1: ensuring that they would have enough sex to help ensure 375 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: that they could continue getting pregnant. But I rose a 376 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,879 Speaker 1: really high skeptical eyebrow when I read this, because you 377 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: and I in other episodes have encountered plenty of studies 378 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: just talking about younger women psychologically not being as comfortable 379 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: maybe with sex, with their bodies, with sexuality as older 380 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: women are. So I would feel like the more comfortable 381 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: you are in your own skin and with sex and 382 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: with sexuality, the more your sex drive would be ramped 383 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,719 Speaker 1: up right, it's not necessarily an evolutionary thing. Well, I mean, 384 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure plenty of people would argue that. To a 385 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: lot of people hate like evolutionary biology because all of 386 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: the answers is always are always well, because pregnancy, And 387 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: clearly there is a lot more going on in someone's 388 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: sex drive than just what our early human ancestors we're doing. 389 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,959 Speaker 1: But it's an interesting theory, and it does you know, 390 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: it got a lot of attention, I think simply because 391 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: of this idea that middle aged women want to have 392 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: sex all the time. What what but we don't but 393 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: they aren't sexually desirable? Then what wait? Oh oh yeah. 394 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: And another surprising fine related to uh, middle aged women's 395 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: sexuality came in a study from the American Sociological Association 396 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: that looked at fidelity and infidelity and middle aged women 397 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: and who they're having sex with and found that middle 398 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: aged women who cheat on their husbands do it with 399 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: sex on the brain, but not with the goal of 400 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: leaving their spouse. That they just want the sexual excitement, 401 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: they want to get theirs, but they don't necessarily want 402 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 1: to leave the comfort of their relationship. Now, grain of 403 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,639 Speaker 1: salt with the study finding because there's very well some 404 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: selection bias going on, since the participant sense we're recruited 405 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: from Ashley Madison dot com, which is social network specifically 406 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: set up for people who want to have sex outside 407 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: of their marriages. So it would make sense that people 408 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: going to Ashley Madison might be fine with their marriage 409 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: as you know, a companion unit, emotional fulfillment, whatever, but 410 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: just want some sex on the side. But it just 411 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: offers additional evidence that, regardless of the invisibility that women 412 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: might face as they age, either just in their day 413 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: to day lives as they walk down the street or 414 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 1: from what we see reflected on small screens and large screens, 415 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,679 Speaker 1: our sex lives even even if desirability by social standards 416 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: might wilt some I don't even like to use that 417 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 1: word wilt. It doesn't necessarily mean it's not reflective of 418 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: what's happening on our insides, right, And so talking about 419 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: it the whole visibility issue, talking about women's sexuality, it's like, 420 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: why is it a surprise to you culture at large 421 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: that women are still sexual beings at any stage of 422 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: their lives. My answer, because we still tend to associate 423 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: women with childbirth, and pregnancy and that is the role. 424 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: And so once that is over, then it's women. I 425 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: think even still today, women are it's progressing, absolutely, but 426 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: women having sex for the sake of having sex is 427 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: still a relatively new concept. Yeah, regardless of age exactly. Um. 428 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: But to close out the podcast, there is one woman 429 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: who is not feeling as sexy as she used to, 430 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: and she's totally fine with that. But she also has 431 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: made a point of embracing and naming her age as 432 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: she has gotten older, and that is Glorious Steinham, who 433 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: reads Lee turned eighty and was telling The New York 434 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 1: Times that, yeah, her libido is not what it once was, 435 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: but that she finds it freeing. She was like, there's 436 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: so much more brain space is opened up now and 437 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,719 Speaker 1: my head is wonderful. Yeah. But I mean, she's an 438 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 1: important character to talk about because, like Kristen said, she 439 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: is making sure to point out her age. Forty years 440 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: ago she did tell a reporter, this is what forty 441 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: looks like. She had a this is what fifty looks 442 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: like party. Um. She then had a this is what 443 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: a d looks like party? Along with Rabbi Arthur wasco 444 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: in a benefit for a Center in Philadelphia, And so, yeah, 445 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I think she's an important character to talk 446 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: about in terms of visibility of older women. The fact 447 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: that you can still be amazing and have a very 448 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: full and colorful life and that you're not getting shoved 449 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: into a closet and forgotten about. Yeah, what jumped out 450 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: to me in the New York Times article Gail Collins 451 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: wrote was that quote. Very few people have aged as 452 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: publicly because she really emerged as the face and as 453 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: Gail Collins talks about, partially because it is a conventionally 454 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: attractive face of the second wave feminist movement, and so 455 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: a lot of people have really intently watched her aging process. 456 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: And you know, she today she dyes her hair, which 457 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: she openly says, but she hasn't had any kind of 458 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: cosmetic surgery, and she says she stays active just because 459 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: she travels all the time. And I really appreciate the 460 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: fact that she has always been open and honest about 461 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: her age. And this is coming from someone who I 462 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: can't even tell you right now, Caroline, how old my 463 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: mother is, precisely because it I have an idea, but 464 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: it was shrouded in secrecy when I was a child 465 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: because she didn't. She never wants to be considered an 466 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: old woman. Yeah, well, there's definitely a shame there. I mean, 467 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: my mother's the same way. When she turned a certain age, 468 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: we were not allow to say the number. She said. 469 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: You can wish me happy birthday all you want, but 470 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: I will kill you if you say the number. So we, 471 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: Caroline and I will not tell listeners how old our 472 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: mothers are because if our mothers find out, even still, 473 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: we might not reach a certain age. It's right in 474 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: that case. So now I hope to hear from some 475 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: listeners of a certain age. Women. Have you felt the 476 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: aging process? And guys too, What is it like? Is 477 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: this invisibility factor something that you do feel or that 478 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 1: you've noticed, is maybe going away? I hope that it's 479 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: getting better the more that we see women on screen 480 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: who are over forty. Let us know your thoughts. Mom 481 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 482 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and 483 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we have a couple of messages 484 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. So we've got a 485 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: couple of letters. Here are from our episode Perfect That's teeth. 486 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: This is from Chris he writes, I really enjoyed your 487 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: podcast on perfect Teeth. I'm a thirty year old, married, 488 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,360 Speaker 1: middle class mother of two, and I've always been incredibly 489 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: self conscious about my teeth because they're far from perfect. 490 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 1: My family didn't have a lot of money when I 491 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: was growing up, so when my permanent teeth grew over 492 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,120 Speaker 1: my baby teeth, there wasn't much my parents could do 493 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: to fix them. As an adult, I'm still learning to 494 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: accept that my teeth are part of what makes me unique, 495 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: and they don't make me any less of anyone else. 496 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: My amazing wife helps me realize this every day. While 497 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: I'm not as self conscious as I was as a teenager, 498 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: I would still love to get braces at some point 499 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: in my life. I'm too aware of the stairs I 500 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: get from strangers and the assumptions about my intelligence. However, 501 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: now that I have children, any cosmetic dental work would 502 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,240 Speaker 1: most likely go to my kids, so they don't have 503 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: to be ashamed of their smile like I was of mine. 504 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: Keep up the great work, and I love the podcast, 505 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: so thanks for writing in, Chris, and I have a 506 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: letter here from lou He's so I have a regular 507 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: listener to your podcast and love your topics and delivery style. 508 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: You're both warm and funny, making your listeners feel like 509 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: old friends. Well, thank you, Lou. Lou has a really 510 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: important story to tell, he says, um I must confess 511 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: to having been judgmental of people's teeth in the past. However, 512 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: in recent years that's all change. My son is a 513 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: twelve year old cancer survivor who received radiation to the 514 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: right side of his jaw at the age of one. 515 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: The side effects of radiation have made his face grow unsymmetrical, 516 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: as well as his teeth being seriously malformed. Some of 517 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: his teeth not grow in fully and many are crooked. 518 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: Braces are not an option as the teeth that are 519 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: fully formed have no roots. Visits to the dentist make 520 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: me cry on the inside as he takes incredible care 521 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: of the teeth he does have so as to keep 522 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: them as long as possible. He never shows his teeth 523 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: when he smiles, but is still super confident and he 524 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: doesn't let it worry in. I have learned that one 525 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: of the side effects of certain cancer treatments can be 526 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: very detrimental to teeth as they cause lack of aliva, 527 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: making oral hygiene extremely difficult. I know many survivors with 528 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: oral problems as a direct result of surviving cancer. This 529 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: experience has taught me to think twice and not judge. 530 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: When I encounter a person with less than perfect teeth. 531 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: There are many reasons that their oral perfection maybe out 532 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: of their control. So thank you so much for sharing 533 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: that story, Lou, and thanks to everybody who's written to us. 534 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our 535 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: email address and thri links to all of our social 536 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, 537 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: including this one, which also includes our sources. So you 538 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: can follow along with us. Head on over to stuff 539 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this 540 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works 541 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: dot com