Speaker 1: My question is, where is the boundary between Oh, I'm
Speaker 1: helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care for them,
Speaker 1: to it being something that becomes from what I'm hearing
Speaker 1: from you, a selfish notion of helping well. Terry Cole
Speaker 1: is a psychotherapist and relationship expert. She's the author of
Speaker 1: Too Much, a book that focuses on breaking the cycle
Speaker 1: of high functioning codependency.
Speaker 2: High functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the
Speaker 2: outcomes of the people in your life to the detriment
Speaker 2: of your own internal peace.
Speaker 1: So I'm the only person that can fix them. I'm
Speaker 1: the only person that's going to be able to give
Speaker 1: them this advice and the only person that's going to
Speaker 1: be able to figure out what they need. And then
Speaker 1: I was like, did they even ask for that?
Speaker 2: Yes? But here's the thing, right, what is real level?
Speaker 2: In our world? We talk about holding space for people,
Speaker 2: I don't think most people even know what that means.
Speaker 1: I'm Radi w Kiah and on my podcast A Really
Speaker 1: Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing
Speaker 1: a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and
Speaker 1: allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find
Speaker 1: comfort together. Thank you so much for being here. I
Speaker 1: am honestly so honored to have you here. I when
Speaker 1: I first heard about you, I got your book and
Speaker 1: I honestly read it NonStop like my team, the whole
Speaker 1: pretty much the whole day I was sat there. You
Speaker 1: can see my book. I've got notes, I've got a
Speaker 1: highlighted bits in there, so many questions that came from it.
Speaker 1: So thank you for putting out this message because I
Speaker 1: think it's very much needed. But also I felt a
Speaker 1: little bit targeted, to be honest, because I felt like
Speaker 1: you'd written the book.
Speaker 2: Just for me.
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you for being on this podcast. I
Speaker 1: appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1: I want to start off because this story in your book,
Speaker 1: I feel demonstrates a lot of who you are as
Speaker 1: a person, but also where all of this came from.
Speaker 1: So you took home a stranger from a train station
Speaker 1: back to your house to stay the night.
Speaker 2: Sound there and not in a fun way. You know
Speaker 2: people like you took home a stranger. It could sound
Speaker 2: like really anxie. So you're like, all dark, No, that's
Speaker 2: not what happened.
Speaker 1: Tell me how that happened, and please go on and
Speaker 1: tell the story because it's magnificent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he used to, for no reason at all, go
Speaker 2: to My therapist was on Long Island, even though I
Speaker 2: was living in Manhattan, so right there, people are like,
Speaker 2: that makes no sense. But she was my therapist in college.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to stay with the same person. So
Speaker 2: I would take a train every week out and walk
Speaker 2: a mile to her house and then walk a mile
Speaker 2: back and then take a ten thirty pm train. So
Speaker 2: I'm on the train done with therapy, and I see
Speaker 2: this kid in my mind now I'm about twenty two,
Speaker 2: when he's about nineteen, and I'm like, immediately my helper
Speaker 2: PingER goes off. He's got like a metal T shirt on,
Speaker 2: He's holding a little blanket. I was like, where the
Speaker 2: hell is this kid going at ten thirty at night
Speaker 2: in this desolate station. So we get on and I
Speaker 2: started talking to him on the train and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: where are you going? He was like, oh, I was
Speaker 2: supposed to, you know, I got hired to drive a
Speaker 2: car back to Indiana and they just canceled it. So
Speaker 2: I go, where are you going? He's like, I guess
Speaker 2: I'm just going to sleep in the station. I was like,
Speaker 2: what station and he said Penn Station. Now this was
Speaker 2: the late eighties, and I was like, you can't sleep
Speaker 2: in Penn Station, dude, You're gonna get mogged. Literally, it's
Speaker 2: so dangerous. And he's like, well, I don't know anyone
Speaker 2: in New York. I was like, yeah, you do? You
Speaker 2: know me? And he was like. I was like, it's settled,
Speaker 2: you're coming home to my house, Billy. So I was
Speaker 2: living in a studio apartment nine one hundred and fourth
Speaker 2: Street between West End Riverside, and I didn't even call
Speaker 2: my roommate. I literally just brought this kid to my
Speaker 2: house and he slept in our studio apartment with me
Speaker 2: and my female roommate, simply because I felt overly responsible
Speaker 2: for what would happen to him if I didn't save him. Now,
Speaker 2: you know, people listening watching, they may be like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's crazy, But here's the thing. Everyone has their own Billy.
Speaker 2: Everyone has their own Billy stories where you somehow felt
Speaker 2: overly responsible and not just for a stranger, for people
Speaker 2: in your life, for your friends, for your family members,
Speaker 2: for you, whoever. It is where you literally feel like
Speaker 2: it is suddenly your responsibility to make sure that the
Speaker 2: right thing happens for that person.
Speaker 1: Yes, when I was reading through your book, I could
Speaker 1: relate to that in so many different parts of my life,
Speaker 1: growing up, from when I was younger to my teenagers
Speaker 1: to now. In my life, I'm there have been so
Speaker 1: many situations where I have felt that way, maybe not
Speaker 1: about a stranger, sometimes about a stranger, but many times
Speaker 1: about people who've been in my life. So your new book,
Speaker 1: too Much, this is the book I'm speaking about, and
Speaker 1: in that you talk about high functioning codependency. Now, I
Speaker 1: would love if you could just describe to everybody what
Speaker 1: is one what is high functioning codependency, but also what's
Speaker 1: the difference between codependency and high functioning codependency.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'll tell you why I coined the phrase. So,
Speaker 2: high functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the
Speaker 2: feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances that even
Speaker 2: the careers of the people in your life to the
Speaker 2: detriment of your own internal peace. Because all of us
Speaker 2: are lovers and empaths and highly sensitive people, and we
Speaker 2: love our people. Of course we're invested in their happiness.
Speaker 2: But when you're in HFC, you feel overly responsible. It tips.
Speaker 2: There's a tipping point that we hit where we take
Speaker 2: it on rather than just feeling compassion or sympathy for
Speaker 2: we feel like we have to fix it. So that's
Speaker 2: the definition. The why Why did I need that definition?
Speaker 2: Because in my therapy practice, I had incredibly capable women
Speaker 2: very much like me, very successful business wise, you know,
Speaker 2: living their best life. And if I would say to them, Hey,
Speaker 2: what you're describing, this is a codependent behavioral pattern you're
Speaker 2: describing in your relationship, they would immediately reject the notion
Speaker 2: of codependency as if I said a dirty word. And
Speaker 2: they're like, hello, I'm making all the money, I'm making
Speaker 2: all the moves, everything that happens is because I'm doing it.
Speaker 2: Everyone comes to me. I'm the rock in my family,
Speaker 2: I'm the rock in my friends group. Who am I?
Speaker 2: I'm not dependent on shit? Everyone's dependent on me, lady.
Speaker 2: And I've realized my clients don't know what codependency is
Speaker 2: because they are they still have the myth of codependency
Speaker 2: being melody baby codependent. No more, you have to be
Speaker 2: enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. I can't tell
Speaker 2: you how many clients that I'm not involved with an addict,
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, So they don't see themselves in the problem, which,
Speaker 2: of course, for me as a therapist was a problem
Speaker 2: because how can I help you if you don't identify
Speaker 2: And as soon as I added high functioning, all of
Speaker 2: my clients not to quote Taylor, but were like me,
Speaker 2: I'm the problem. It's made with no shame though they
Speaker 2: were like, you're right, I am doing all the things
Speaker 2: for all the people, or I am overly invested in
Speaker 2: this and I'm exhausted. But part of the irony with
Speaker 2: high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are,
Speaker 2: the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is.
Speaker 2: So we're still suffering and we're still getting burnt out.
Speaker 1: What are the typical symptoms of someone who is.
Speaker 2: HFC well, feeling over the responsible for other people in
Speaker 2: all the ways? Being an auto advice giver, I can't
Speaker 2: stop fixing your problem, we can't stop giving you our
Speaker 2: grade a advice on everything, being an auto accommodator. So
Speaker 2: what does this mean? I tell a story in the
Speaker 2: book also where where this phrase came from. I coin
Speaker 2: this phrase as well, because it was something I was
Speaker 2: doing in my life and this was one of like
Speaker 2: five years ago. So trust me, you can get into recovery,
Speaker 2: but you're never going to be cured. I was at
Speaker 2: a hair salon in Manhattan and I was getting something
Speaker 2: on my hair where it's like a mask where I'm
Speaker 2: laying in a sink but nothing's happening because I'm just
Speaker 2: laying there, and all of a sudden, now the sink
Speaker 2: traffic is backing up and each person that comes in
Speaker 2: is standing. I'm becoming more and more anxious, Like I
Speaker 2: wonder if they think I'm an idiot because I'm using
Speaker 2: a sink but I'm not even using it and I
Speaker 2: could sit somewhere else, and maybe I should tell somebody.
Speaker 2: Literally becoming until I get to a tipping point where
Speaker 2: I have to raise my hand have the assistant come over.
Speaker 2: I say to her, Hey, I could sit somewhere else.
Speaker 2: She's like, no, shit, lady, And we're fine. We do
Speaker 2: this every saturdaysterry Like we're fine. And I realized what
Speaker 2: is the cost? Sight who cares?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Some people would say, you're just being Niceah, No, because
Speaker 2: the thing is if you can't not do it, it's
Speaker 2: not you being nice, it's a compulsion, if it hasn't
Speaker 2: been a mindful decision, if it's a knee jerk reaction,
Speaker 2: which is what mine was in that situation. It wasn't
Speaker 2: me being nice, it was me trying to control yes.
Speaker 2: And on the foundation of codependency is an overt or
Speaker 2: covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome.
Speaker 1: And you know, the first thing that comes to mind
Speaker 1: is from a young age, whether it's not my spiritual
Speaker 1: culture or just generally, there's a notion that service is
Speaker 1: one of the highest forms of love. When you are
Speaker 1: serving somebody else, it is one of the best things
Speaker 1: that you could be doing for somebody. But I think
Speaker 1: there's this difference between service with a desire to help
Speaker 1: yourself and service with a desire to help the other
Speaker 1: person genuinely. But can they not be both? So I
Speaker 1: guess my question is where is the boundary between Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care
Speaker 1: for them, to it being something that becomes from what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you, a selfish notion of helping.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that you have to the way that
Speaker 2: we can tell when people always ask, how do I know?
Speaker 2: Is you can start with doing a resentment inventory. M yeah,
Speaker 2: because if your motivation is pretty clean, you won't feel
Speaker 2: resentment for doing it. Now, you also have to make
Speaker 2: sure that you're not stepping over boundaries for other people,
Speaker 2: because a lot of times we're like, we'll do things
Speaker 2: that people don't even ask us to do, and then
Speaker 2: if they're not grateful, we're like mad always We're like
Speaker 2: feel underappreciated. We're like, and you didn't throw me a
Speaker 2: parade for the thing I did for you that you
Speaker 2: didn't ask me to do and maybe didn't even brig
Speaker 2: and want me to do. So I think that consent
Speaker 2: and instead of making the assumptions right when we're auto
Speaker 2: advice giving, we're assuming that's what people need or want
Speaker 2: or it's really we just want to fix their problem.
Speaker 2: One of the central stories in the book is something
Speaker 2: that happened with one of my sisters. And this was
Speaker 2: the beginning for me really honestly, I was in my
Speaker 2: mid to late twenties. It was when I really started
Speaker 2: to understand what high functioning codependency was, and I didn't
Speaker 2: know until then. So my sister was in an abusive
Speaker 2: relationship living with this guy in the woods without running
Speaker 2: water and no electricity. She was an alcoholic and he
Speaker 2: was doing crack and abusive, so it's just an hfc's nightmare, right.
Speaker 2: I love her to death. Can you imagine and think
Speaker 2: about one of your siblings in that situation. You're like,
Speaker 2: all hands on deck until we get her out of there,
Speaker 2: Like what do we need to do? So I was
Speaker 2: failing to get her out of there, and I was
Speaker 2: crying to my therapist for god knows probably the fiftieth time,
Speaker 2: saying what am I going to do? I've done everything?
Speaker 2: And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What
Speaker 2: makes you think you know what your sister needs to
Speaker 2: learn in this lifetime and the way she needs to
Speaker 2: learn it? And I was like so mad, and I said,
Speaker 2: I think we can agree she doesn't need to do
Speaker 2: it with a crackhet in the middle of the woods
Speaker 2: without reading water. And she said, you know, terror, I
Speaker 2: actually can't agree to that because I'm not God. I
Speaker 2: can't agree because I'm not God, and neither or you.
Speaker 2: But do you know what's happening for you? And I
Speaker 2: was like, obviously not, so please clue me in. What
Speaker 2: is happening? For me, And she said, you have worked
Speaker 2: hard to create a pretty harmonious life because I stopped
Speaker 2: drinking when I was twenty one, Like, I've been on
Speaker 2: a spiritual and mental health path for many, many years.
Speaker 2: And she said, and your sisters dumps your fire of
Speaker 2: a life. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what she
Speaker 2: was saying, is messing with your peace. So you want
Speaker 2: to fix her so your pain can end.
Speaker 1: I can relate to that so much. You always think that,
Speaker 1: Like for me when I was reading it, I definitely
Speaker 1: have those tendencies. And I have this notion from a
Speaker 1: young age, whether it's friends or relationships, whatever, is like
Speaker 1: I'm the only person that they would listen to. I'm
Speaker 1: the only person that can fix them. I'm the only
Speaker 1: person that's going to be able to give them this advice.
Speaker 1: I'm the only person that's going to be able to
Speaker 1: figure out what they need. And then I was like,
Speaker 1: did they even ask for that? Did they even ask
Speaker 1: for my help? They've told me all these things. I'm
Speaker 1: observing all these things that they're doing. But my problem is,
Speaker 1: like my problem is when I experience that, whether it's friends,
Speaker 1: family members' relationships, how do you stop yourself from because
Speaker 1: if I'm picking up the phone to them, I can't
Speaker 1: not say something. I can't not say I need like
Speaker 1: you need to stop this. We need to figure this out.
Speaker 1: Let's figure out a solution. How can I create a
Speaker 1: way that I can have a relationship with someone who
Speaker 1: is going down a terrible path.
Speaker 2: Without controlling them, well without without controlling them without because
Speaker 2: that's what that is.
Speaker 1: When it's without feeling like I can help them.
Speaker 2: Yes, but here's the thing. What is real love? Right?
Speaker 2: What is real love? In our world? We talk about
Speaker 2: holding space for people. I don't think most people even
Speaker 2: know what that means. It means I can hang with
Speaker 2: you in the foxhole of your dark night of the soul,
Speaker 2: and I can love you instead of trying to fix you.
Speaker 2: I can ask you how can I best support you?
Speaker 2: What would be helpful? What you can say? Though I
Speaker 2: have scripts galore? So what you can say when your
Speaker 2: friend calls and she's got a disastrous, terrible idea and
Speaker 2: you want to talk her out of it so badly? Instead,
Speaker 2: when she's telling you, you're going to say, okay, so
Speaker 2: tell me, tell me about this idea. What do you
Speaker 2: think you should do? Tell me about why now? Why now?
Speaker 2: With this? Tell me stop talking more listening, create expansion.
Speaker 2: That's holding space is when your friend's like, I don't
Speaker 2: know what to do. I'm gonna quit my job, or
Speaker 2: I'm gonna bring up with my husband or whatever it is,
Speaker 2: and you go and they go, I want to know
Speaker 2: what you think. And even though that's like just so
Speaker 2: seductive that you want to just tell them all the things,
Speaker 2: instead you're going to say, okay, before I say anything,
Speaker 2: I want to know what you think you should do.
Speaker 1: But then, would you say that somebody who's going down, like,
Speaker 1: let's say you know somebody really well, let's say it's
Speaker 1: a family member and you can see them slowly going
Speaker 1: down a path that's going to lead to their detriment.
Speaker 1: In your book you talk about you say that sometimes
Speaker 1: people have to hit rock bottom to really want to change,
Speaker 1: to really want to make a difference in their life. So,
Speaker 1: as an observer of somebody that you absolutely love, would
Speaker 1: you say that you just have to sit back and
Speaker 1: do nothing.
Speaker 2: No, I think that. Listen, there's a lot of gray
Speaker 2: in between auto advice giving and watching them light themselves
Speaker 2: on fire. Right right, there's two extremes here in the middle.
Speaker 2: You can say I'm concerned. You can say I love you.
Speaker 2: And when I see this situation, I get a pit
Speaker 2: in my stomach.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly why, but I'm really I'm so worried.
Speaker 2: They may say mind your own business. If they're really
Speaker 2: in denial about what they're doing, they may say I
Speaker 2: don't need your two cents, and you can say, okay,
Speaker 2: I love you, I'm here, but I have to tell
Speaker 2: you it concerns me.
Speaker 1: I loved when you said in the book that what
Speaker 1: your therapist, which, by the way, therapist sounds amazing, but
Speaker 1: when she said to you that their discomfort is making
Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable. Their pain is bringing you pain. And
Speaker 1: so as much as you may want to be helping them,
Speaker 1: part of it is you want to help yourself, yes,
Speaker 1: because you don't want to be in that discomfort. Watching
Speaker 1: them in their discomfort is making you uncomfortable. It may
Speaker 1: not even be making them uncomfortable, correct, And I've noticed
Speaker 1: that where I'm like, oh no, but I want my
Speaker 1: parents to be as comfortable as possible, Or my sister's upset,
Speaker 1: how can I make her not be upset? And so
Speaker 1: then I'm thinking of every single post thing she tells
Speaker 1: me one thing, Oh I've got a cough for a
Speaker 1: cull or there's something wrong with my health, and I'm
Speaker 1: like looking up every possible thing she can go to.
Speaker 1: And for me, I think it started a lot more
Speaker 1: became exacerbated when I moved away from home, where I
Speaker 1: was like, I have to be helpful in some way.
Speaker 1: I need to be useful. I need to make sure
Speaker 1: that if I'm not there physically, I will do all
Speaker 1: the planning. I will make sure that I am constantly
Speaker 1: on alert and there for them whenever they need it.
Speaker 1: And so it was definitely, you know, on reflection after
Speaker 1: reading your book, I was saying, thinking to myself, I
Speaker 1: was like, actually, it's for me. It's for me to
Speaker 1: feel like I am useful. It's for me to feel
Speaker 1: like I can look after them, and I'm finding a
Speaker 1: way any way possible to insert myself into their life
Speaker 1: so they know that I am looking after them and
Speaker 1: that I'm here totally.
Speaker 2: And there's a way you can still do those things,
Speaker 2: but that actually will deepen the intimacy and your relationships.
Speaker 2: By asking expensive questions, Oh that's.
Speaker 1: Really yeah, expensive questions. That's it.
Speaker 2: So what was that like? And then what happened? And
Speaker 2: then what did he say? Well, how do you feel
Speaker 2: about it now? Yeah? Then what like when I'm talking
Speaker 2: to my husband in particular, because he's not as much
Speaker 2: of a talker as I am, I'm always so clear
Speaker 2: to be like, you have the floor yea.
Speaker 1: And that's amazing because I think when people don't talk
Speaker 1: as much, you actually find it easier to inset yourself
Speaker 1: into their life. Like there are a lot of people
Speaker 1: who have their boundaries and they're not that they're going
Speaker 1: to say no, I'm good, like I don't need your advice.
Speaker 1: But then it's the people who stay quiet or maybe
Speaker 1: don't have as much of a voice, and it makes
Speaker 1: it easier. And you think that's a sign that you
Speaker 1: need to be helping them, but really it's a sign
Speaker 1: that you need to be helping them open up to
Speaker 1: their own ideas. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the thing is, years ago my husband and I
Speaker 2: had a situation happened, which really because we've been together
Speaker 2: twenty seven years, wow and thanks. And there was a
Speaker 2: situation where he had someone who worked for him who
Speaker 2: actually embezzled a bunch of money from an I'd say
Speaker 2: us and I was so mad. I was like, we're
Speaker 2: going to get legal. I'm going to find I'm going
Speaker 2: to get her. I was so he's such a he's
Speaker 2: really an EmPATH, such a kind, he's an artist, he's
Speaker 2: very successful. But I always felt like I needed to protect,
Speaker 2: you know, and I was, of course making it worse,
Speaker 2: inadvertently making him feel worse. And then finally, like I
Speaker 2: was talking about in therapy, and I got it like
Speaker 2: I need to not be doing what I'm doing and
Speaker 2: that it's not being supportive, it's just helping my ego
Speaker 2: feel better. And so I said to him, Babe, how
Speaker 2: can I best support you with this situation? And he
Speaker 2: just flat out and said, Terror, you can have faith
Speaker 2: that I'm going to get it done and I'm going
Speaker 2: to do it my way.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's what he needed. He needed you to show
Speaker 1: that you believed he could do it himself.
Speaker 2: And then he did and didn't go legal and got
Speaker 2: every dime back. And when I said to him, I
Speaker 2: was like, babe, why, like you know, I was all
Speaker 2: so angry, and he was like, Terror, she listen, I
Speaker 2: cannot kick someone when they're down, even when they did
Speaker 2: something wrong. She's like, I've known her for almost twenty years, Like,
Speaker 2: I know this person died and that's why her books
Speaker 2: got all messed up. Like he had this compassionate understanding
Speaker 2: and he's like, as long as she makes it right.
Speaker 2: And he was a better person than me.
Speaker 1: But and why do you think, like, what's the deep
Speaker 1: rooted reasons that people do care too much to this
Speaker 1: point where it's actually unhealthy.
Speaker 2: Well, it's when we really think about it, it's how
Speaker 2: we're raised and culturally, certainly cultural elements even more so
Speaker 2: being Indian, right, but American too. Be a good girl, right,
Speaker 2: turn that frown around. Hey, if you don't have anything
Speaker 2: nice to say, buddy, don't say anything at all. Nobody
Speaker 2: is like encouraging us to assert ourselves. Not in any culture.
Speaker 2: When you're a little girl, it's be nice.
Speaker 1: And the.
Speaker 2: Perception of being nice is definitely more important than actually
Speaker 2: being nice. It's like about what other people think about you.
Speaker 2: And so we come from a deficit when it comes
Speaker 2: to self care in a real way. And so we
Speaker 2: have all of this outward focus. We're so used to
Speaker 2: focusing on other people and what they need and as
Speaker 2: you said, being of service. And yet that's not the
Speaker 2: same way as having heart connections with people. It's a
Speaker 2: way to make ourselves and I used to do this
Speaker 2: when I was young in relationships. I would overfunction my
Speaker 2: ass off in some relationship because I thought then the
Speaker 2: person couldn't ditch me or reject me. I'll make myself
Speaker 2: so replaceable that they wouldn't be able to But of
Speaker 2: course that's not accurate, and that's not how it goes.
Speaker 2: So anyway, back to what we were saying about the qualities.
Speaker 2: One is also hyperindependence, where it's hard to let other
Speaker 2: people do things for us, or it's hard to ask
Speaker 2: people to do things, which of course leads to burnout
Speaker 2: and resentment in all of these things. And there is
Speaker 2: a phenomenon though, which I think is interesting, and I
Speaker 2: think you and Jay have it, and I think my
Speaker 2: husband and I have it as well. If you marry
Speaker 2: someone who's even more of an HFC than you, which
Speaker 2: you did and so did I, because I don't even
Speaker 2: need to know more about him than I already do
Speaker 2: to know that that is that's a good union because
Speaker 2: they're the one person, or at least that person you
Speaker 2: allow to do things for you. Is that accurate?
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, I need to force his way in yeah, same, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: to force his way in be like, no, I can
Speaker 1: do this by myself. He's like, you can do it,
Speaker 1: but you don't have to do it by yourself exactly,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh okay. But my reasoning was
Speaker 1: because I was like, no, I have to prove I
Speaker 1: can do it by myself. But then, you know, I
Speaker 1: was thinking about the capacity, you know, when you were
Speaker 1: talking about resentment earlier, and I always thought about how
Speaker 1: you know, Jay would always say to me, why do
Speaker 1: you do all these things for people if you feel
Speaker 1: a certain way about it? And I was like, because
Speaker 1: I always want to be able to want want people
Speaker 1: to know that I am here to do things for them.
Speaker 1: And what I realized was it's either if I feel
Speaker 1: resentment a good sign for me has always been and
Speaker 1: if I do something for someone and I'm expecting it
Speaker 1: back in the same way, or if I feel irritated
Speaker 1: by afterwards, it's either a sign that I have gone
Speaker 1: past my own boundaries and limits and my capacity, or
Speaker 1: it's a sign that I need to learn how to
Speaker 1: feel myself to be able to expand my capacity. So
Speaker 1: it can iv one or the other. But staying in
Speaker 1: that zone means that I would keep over exerting myself,
Speaker 1: keep overgiving to my detriment. They weren't asking for it,
Speaker 1: I did it myself. I would always offer that help.
Speaker 1: But then if I'm coming away saying, well, I did this, this,
Speaker 1: and this, calculating what they owe me back, that's a
Speaker 1: sign that I have gone past my capacity and boundary.
Speaker 1: But I do believe that there are ways that you
Speaker 1: can replenish yourself if you have this practice of constant
Speaker 1: replenishment where you can probably keep expanding the ability to give,
Speaker 1: where you then don't feel that resentment. You then don't
Speaker 1: feel that calculative how am I going to receive back
Speaker 1: from this person? But it takes so much inward work
Speaker 1: and so much giving back to yourself to be able
Speaker 1: to feel like you can give more and more.
Speaker 2: Yes, Andy, please. So that's that's one way of looking
Speaker 2: at it. Or we can get really clear about what
Speaker 2: is our motivation forgiving, right, because mutuality when you think
Speaker 2: about what is the opposite of codependency, it's interdependency or
Speaker 2: healthy dependency. Right where I can depend on this friend
Speaker 2: when I'm when I'm low, I know that they'll step
Speaker 2: up for me, or and then they can depend on
Speaker 2: me when they're low. They know I'll step up for them,
Speaker 2: Like there is something so important. So I don't know
Speaker 2: that it's about giving more, right because I'm pretty sure
Speaker 2: you're giving plenty because there's no HFC I know who's not.
Speaker 2: But again, there could be there could be a spiritual
Speaker 2: angle to that, because that is also praised and well
Speaker 2: thought of, as you said, like being of service. But
Speaker 2: I think the real importance in your close relationships in
Speaker 2: particular is the mutuality and all of us being better listeners. Yes,
Speaker 2: and not meaning let's let people you know, toxically dump
Speaker 2: on us talking about the same bad situation they're in,
Speaker 2: never changing. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about
Speaker 2: our addiction to auto advice giving and knowing the answer
Speaker 2: kind of. And here's the thing with the HFC is
Speaker 2: we're good problem solveers and we're smart, and we're very capable,
Speaker 2: and you want to be like I have an idea,
Speaker 2: I have a thought, I know what you should do,
Speaker 2: like the resources exactly, let's do it. We're already like
Speaker 2: I'm already texting someone, I'm googling, I'm underlining the book
Speaker 2: for you. I can't can't how many people can I
Speaker 2: buy this book?
Speaker 1: You're looking for a house, I've sent you about.
Speaker 2: Ten exactly one of those.
Speaker 1: I'm talking.
Speaker 2: It's so true because we're so high functioning. But what
Speaker 2: changes for you and for the other person when you
Speaker 2: just become open to sharing the attention, like tell me
Speaker 2: about your experience. If my husband is an artist and
Speaker 2: he also will go into like war zones and draw
Speaker 2: on the spot war, I don't know they believe it
Speaker 2: or not. That's the thing some people do, who would
Speaker 2: want to do it? He does, but I will. He'll
Speaker 2: be telling me a story about something like that, and
Speaker 2: I will be like, let's get some food, let's sit down,
Speaker 2: like I want to hear the whole thing from beginning
Speaker 2: to end. No co opting of that story. There's no
Speaker 2: need for me to say, oh, yeah, I know what
Speaker 2: you mean, because one day when I did blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: just you, babe, just you telling me everything about those
Speaker 2: six weeks that you were in the couple or wherever
Speaker 2: the hell he was, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 2: letting him know that what he thinks his experiences, especially
Speaker 2: when I'm out with him, are important because it's not
Speaker 2: like we're not together. We've been together so long. It's
Speaker 2: not like I'm talking to for an hour while I'm
Speaker 2: in New York where I'm wherever, and when I'm in
Speaker 2: LA while he's in New York. You know, I'm texting like, hey, babe,
Speaker 2: good night. I love you to say to Mark, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. But if it's something that's important
Speaker 2: that I feel like I'm missing, I want to make
Speaker 2: sure he gets like, here's my full attention all the time,
Speaker 2: because he's literally still the most interesting person I've ever met.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really so much more about listening and hearing.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, you may think you know better, but
Speaker 1: listen to everything before you even give a comment. It's
Speaker 1: a definite thing before you even speak one word.
Speaker 2: Yes. And what my therapist said to me after my
Speaker 2: sister thing after she said you don't know, and then
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, well what do I do? She
Speaker 2: said boundaries, So it was a beginning give my boundary
Speaker 2: life where she was like, you don't have to talk
Speaker 2: to her about this guy, and I was like, I don't.
Speaker 2: That's it, Yes, fantastic, because I don't want to. It
Speaker 2: is torturous. So I call my sister, and she helped
Speaker 2: me come up with a script, set a boundary and
Speaker 2: just said, hey, I can't talk about this, and I
Speaker 2: love you and if and when you ever want to
Speaker 2: get out, I'm so your person always.
Speaker 1: How did you feel after that conversation. I've tried that
Speaker 1: before and it really like, I find it so difficult
Speaker 1: because I'm like, am I having a fake relationship with
Speaker 1: this person? Or actually now from what you're saying, and
Speaker 1: maybe it is more of a real relationship it is?
Speaker 2: And am I willing to be uncomfortable? Because of course
Speaker 2: I felt guilty? Yes, I felt scared. It's an illusion
Speaker 2: though that me letting her dump on me was make
Speaker 2: making her safer in her situation, because it was not.
Speaker 2: She was just as threatened as she was. And what
Speaker 2: ended up happening for me was that I had to
Speaker 2: learn to let the chips fall where they may when
Speaker 2: they're not my chips. And this is part of the problem,
Speaker 2: is that we think all the chips are our chips,
Speaker 2: but they're not. And less than nine months later, she
Speaker 2: called me and she was like, Hi, are you still
Speaker 2: my person? And I was like, getting in my car,
Speaker 2: she got out, she got sober, she went back to school.
Speaker 2: She never was in another abusive relationship. But here's the
Speaker 2: most important part. Instead of her littlest sister being the
Speaker 2: hero of her story, she is the hero of her
Speaker 2: own story. And so her sobriety could stick, her transformation
Speaker 2: could stick because she chose it. It's humiliating to I
Speaker 2: have your youngest sister quote unquote save you, even if
Speaker 2: you're grateful for like a minute, but ultimately you just
Speaker 2: feel like a loser. And so I didn't rob her
Speaker 2: of that experience. And my therapist said, Terry, listen to me.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying
Speaker 2: you can't. It is an impossibility. So what you're doing,
Speaker 2: you're just throwing shit at the wall trying to see
Speaker 2: what will stick. But the bottom line is that it
Speaker 2: is not your situation to fix, and it is presumptuous
Speaker 2: even if she's in a rough spot, it's presumptuous for
Speaker 2: you to think you know exactly what she should be doing,
Speaker 2: because you don't know. And you have to respect her
Speaker 2: sovereignty and her right to be self determined even if
Speaker 2: it feels like a disaster, which it did, and she.
Speaker 1: May not be ready for it, and that's why she
Speaker 1: wasn't until she was until she was Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: how do you, you know, distinguish between when you are
Speaker 1: let's say you do have somebody in your life like
Speaker 1: you did, where you really wanted to help them. And
Speaker 1: one thing I'd read in your book which was a
Speaker 1: big light bulb for me was the enabling mentality. You
Speaker 1: speak about how when you are trying to help someone
Speaker 1: and you end up helping them over and over and
Speaker 1: over again, or you end up helping them a little
Speaker 1: bit too much. What you said, it takes away their
Speaker 1: power and it takes away their ability to do it.
Speaker 1: And so what is a way that we can create
Speaker 1: help in someone's life And where do you start knowing
Speaker 1: the boundaries of where to stop helping? Because they say
Speaker 1: someone's happy to take the help, because there are some
Speaker 1: instances where they'll say no, but there will be instances
Speaker 1: where they want to be a bit lazy and they
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to put in the work themselves. So
Speaker 1: how do you know when it is time to stop
Speaker 1: helping if that person is still taking the help.
Speaker 2: Well, you have to go back to your resentment inventory,
Speaker 2: because if you can't do it without feeling resentful, which
Speaker 2: eventually it'll become too much. Then you know you're giving
Speaker 2: exactly as you said before, past your capacity. And I
Speaker 2: think we want to make a distinction between when you're
Speaker 2: overgiving to someone. What I really took away from that
Speaker 2: situation is my therapist was also saying, hey, when you're
Speaker 2: throwing money at this or when you were helping her temporarily,
Speaker 2: you're also robbing her of the impetus to change her situation,
Speaker 2: like the drive. It's the same way that I always
Speaker 2: say with my clients, like, don't have sex with your ex.
Speaker 2: When people are like, it's just sex, I'm like, but
Speaker 2: it's not because energetically, you were dispersing the energy that
Speaker 2: would help you, you know, because energetically we're like, you know,
Speaker 2: your energy comes out and it's like these little hooks
Speaker 2: that go out and hook things. But when you're dispersing it,
Speaker 2: even if you say it's just sex, you're not going
Speaker 2: to your person who's looking for you is not going
Speaker 2: to find you because your light is dimmed every time
Speaker 2: you have sex with your ex. According to me, listen,
Speaker 2: that's not factual. That's just me. Yeah, And this is
Speaker 2: the same thing that she needed to get to exactly
Speaker 2: what you said, a certain bottom where she had had it,
Speaker 2: not that I had had it for her, She had
Speaker 2: to have had it, and only then would she be
Speaker 2: ready to go and have it stayed, because you know
Speaker 2: she had left and gone back before, but when she
Speaker 2: was ready to go, she left and never.
Speaker 1: Went back stuck. Yeah. I always think about that with
Speaker 1: somebody that was that I was friends with when I
Speaker 1: was younger, and I would be like, Okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to give you money for this, this, and this because
Speaker 1: you need it right now. And so I give them
Speaker 1: money and be like, but this, if I do this,
Speaker 1: then this means it's your time to change, right Like
Speaker 1: you're going to change. I'm going to help you out
Speaker 1: this time. And then your commitment back to me is
Speaker 1: not the money, it's you committing to me that you're
Speaker 1: going to change. And I would always be so disappointed
Speaker 1: because I was like, but I've done but I've given
Speaker 1: you what you need to stay on your feet. I've
Speaker 1: given you what you need to support you. Why can't
Speaker 1: you stick to this for yourself? Like, why cant I'm
Speaker 1: not asking for me? And my I would always say,
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for it for me I'm saying, all
Speaker 1: I want in reciprocation is for you to do it for.
Speaker 2: You, right, But here's the thing you were asking for it, right.
Speaker 2: So this is what we realize, that you not living
Speaker 2: to your greatest potential, or you being in a terrible
Speaker 2: relationship or whatever the person is doing, or you you
Speaker 2: about to be evicted, right, whatever it is that you
Speaker 2: saving them. Another thing that happens is especially with kids,
Speaker 2: is that what is the messaging when we save you? Yes,
Speaker 2: My message to you is I don't think you can.
Speaker 1: Do it, yes, And you don't even realize you're doing that.
Speaker 2: Yes. And then the kid is like, you're right, I
Speaker 2: can't do it. I feel like a loser. And the
Speaker 2: parent who is bailing them out over and over is like,
Speaker 2: I agree, I think you're a loser too.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I just realized that that exactly what
Speaker 1: you're saying is what I felt growing up, which is
Speaker 1: why I ended up being somebody now who doesn't want
Speaker 1: to take help. And so my parents were so loving
Speaker 1: and I had an older sister she was incredible. But
Speaker 1: every time I didn't do my coursework, every time I
Speaker 1: was late giving something in, every time I mess up
Speaker 1: thing up. They would stay up all night to help me.
Speaker 1: They would do anything possible to make sure I got
Speaker 1: that done, to make sure I got that great, to
Speaker 1: make sure whatever it was.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: And at that time I was like, thank god there
Speaker 1: helped me. And then I realized I completely felt powerless
Speaker 1: over my own life when I moved away from them,
Speaker 1: moved to New York, and I suddenly was like, I
Speaker 1: have no idea how to do anything by myself. I
Speaker 1: don't know how to pick cutlery without getting their opinion
Speaker 1: on it. I don't know how to help myself, how
Speaker 1: to do anything, how to make decisions for myself, because
Speaker 1: I constantly asked them to save me, and they saved me,
Speaker 1: and so yeow yeah.
Speaker 2: A family of hfc's and they were infantilizing you, right,
Speaker 2: So they were enabling for sure, but there was an infantilization, right,
Speaker 2: like keeping you like a dependent child in a way.
Speaker 2: And listen, here's the thing, right, this is all love.
Speaker 1: Right, it is all love. It was so much love.
Speaker 2: We know this, And so part of it is those
Speaker 2: who feel like, oh, I don't want to say be
Speaker 2: mean to my family, or I don't want to and
Speaker 2: you're not being mean either.
Speaker 1: They were the most incredible parents and I love them
Speaker 1: so much. Yes, but the traits of loving too much,
Speaker 1: it does exist because you're.
Speaker 2: Doing too much and when we really love, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a beautiful poem about childhood and about rearing children
Speaker 2: in the Prophet, that very famous book, and it talks
Speaker 2: about parents as the bows and that our children are
Speaker 2: the arrows, and that our job is to like let
Speaker 2: them go far and let them go. And you see
Speaker 2: parents who can't stop parenting. They continue to want to
Speaker 2: insert themselves into the center of their child's life. I
Speaker 2: had a client who her husband's mother insisted that all
Speaker 2: of the five siblings and their family is they had
Speaker 2: a big, huge house come home every Christmas for Christmas. Finally,
Speaker 2: years of therapy later, she was like, here's the thing.
Speaker 2: I don't want our kids. I want to be home
Speaker 2: and my house Christmas morning. I'm over revolving our life
Speaker 2: around your mother as the matriarch. And it's so selfish
Speaker 2: to expect that raising kids. I'm married, a widower, I
Speaker 2: have three you know, I'm a bonus mom to three
Speaker 2: amazing sons. I have seven grandbabes. My feeling is who
Speaker 2: once they were married I was like, your wife is
Speaker 2: your first family. Now we're your family of origin. So
Speaker 2: whoever had the youngest baby, I was like, for the holidays,
Speaker 2: we'll go there, because I don't expect you with a
Speaker 2: three month old to travel to New York. And they
Speaker 2: live all over the place because they went far and
Speaker 2: it's like we continue to have our life. I love them.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that you can't be close to your family,
Speaker 2: but there is an appropriateness of like phases of our lives.
Speaker 2: When you have adult children and they're having children of
Speaker 2: their own, you want them to be able to be
Speaker 2: focused on their family. And I love being a Grandparent's
Speaker 2: the best right, but I also don't expect them to
Speaker 2: revolve their life around mine and this travel schedule or
Speaker 2: what we're doing.
Speaker 1: That's such a great way of putting it. Like I
Speaker 1: even culturally, I think for us, especially coming from an
Speaker 1: Indian background, it is like this culture where the sun
Speaker 1: stays the baby for the rest of their life. Your child.
Speaker 1: As a woman, you have to stay protected and so
Speaker 1: your parents look after you, and then you get in
Speaker 1: inverted comments given to your husband to look after you,
Speaker 1: and everything is like you are being ushered from one
Speaker 1: place to another, and I think for mothers in my culture,
Speaker 1: including my own mother, who I love, if you're listening,
Speaker 1: but she finds it really difficult to let us be adults.
Speaker 1: So everything is like, are you sure you want to
Speaker 1: spend money on this? And are you sure you want
Speaker 1: to do that? I don't think it's a good idea.
Speaker 1: And me and my sister are both getting to a
Speaker 1: point where we're saying, Mum, we love you so much.
Speaker 1: We appreciate that you have an opinion on this. We
Speaker 1: really do, and I understand it may be different to ours,
Speaker 1: but it's our life and you have to let us
Speaker 1: make that decision. And now that you're saying it, what
Speaker 1: it triggers in me every time she gives her opinion
Speaker 1: is you think I don't know what's best for you. You
Speaker 1: think I can't do it. You think I'm not making
Speaker 1: financial decisions that are good for myself. You think I'm
Speaker 1: not making a friend decisions. Still telling me that these
Speaker 1: friends may not be telling me that I am not
Speaker 1: making wise decisions for myself, second guessing my own decisions
Speaker 1: for myself when I've tried really hard to create a
Speaker 1: system where I believe in what I'm doing is the
Speaker 1: right way to do it, but.
Speaker 2: It's also these are your mistakes to make if they
Speaker 2: are mistakes quote unquote. You know, it's funny. My mother
Speaker 2: had this quote on her refrigerator all of my life.
Speaker 2: It's like an irma bombback quote, and it said, I
Speaker 2: promise not to take credit for your accomplishments. If you
Speaker 2: promise not to blame me for your failures, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: And I thought that was great. That didn't mean that
Speaker 2: she wasn't auto advice giving me up through my twenties
Speaker 2: until I finally said her. I was like, Mom, listen,
Speaker 2: if you can't just compassionately listen to what I'm saying
Speaker 2: give me advice that I'm not going to take that
Speaker 2: I do not want, then I will not call you
Speaker 2: when I'm in pain.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And she was like, oh, everyone else can say. I
Speaker 2: was like, Mom, this is how it is. I love
Speaker 2: you and I am not looking for input. Can you
Speaker 2: hang with me in my indecision right now? She's like,
Speaker 2: I guess so. I mean she didn't want to, but
Speaker 2: she did it, you know, And I love.
Speaker 1: Her me in my indecision right now, that's all. That's
Speaker 1: all we want. It I just want you to listen, yes,
Speaker 1: and I just want to know that you're there. But
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want you to try and fix it and.
Speaker 2: Have faith that I can do it. It's very I
Speaker 2: have to say, heterosexual relationships. There's a lot with my
Speaker 2: therapy practice that I see where and in the beginning
Speaker 2: of my relationship with my husband where there's a lot
Speaker 2: they love us to death and they want to fix yes,
Speaker 2: and they have to learn that. For me, at least,
Speaker 2: my husband did to say to me, are we brainstorming?
Speaker 2: You want my opinion? Like, what are we doing if
Speaker 2: there's a problem? And he always says, and how this
Speaker 2: is you? Guys? If you're listening, man, this is the
Speaker 2: easiest line. Just say it. How can I best support
Speaker 2: you right now? Sometimes I'm like, do you want to
Speaker 2: fool around? Do you want to make me a cup
Speaker 2: of tea? Do you want to go take a ride
Speaker 2: in the truck? Like yeah, I will tell you what
Speaker 2: I need if you ask, and if you treat me
Speaker 2: like a problem to be solved, Which is kind of
Speaker 2: ironic because as an HFC, that's how we treat everyone else,
Speaker 2: like people who are just about projects. Right, We're like
Speaker 2: I have thoughts about all the things that you can change,
Speaker 2: and I will help you change them, but nobody likes that.
Speaker 2: It is the same way that you feel about your
Speaker 2: mom and how I felt about my mind.
Speaker 1: I was like, gosh, I've just take I've done the
Speaker 1: same thing, and I'm telling how off for doing it.
Speaker 2: But it's okay because you're learning and we're growing and
Speaker 2: we're changing because we don't want to be HFCs. We
Speaker 2: want to be hfc's in recovery. And let's paint a
Speaker 2: picture of what that looks like. Can we?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Please? Now I need to know, because what can
Speaker 1: I look forward to exactly?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's a much in some respects,
Speaker 2: it's a lighter lift. When you really understand what is
Speaker 2: your side of the street and your relationships, you will
Speaker 2: stop in a panic with all this urgency to feel
Speaker 2: like you have to come up with a solution for
Speaker 2: what other people need to do. You will realize, hey,
Speaker 2: that that is not the most loving thing to do.
Speaker 2: And that helped it change for me because I do
Speaker 2: see myself really as a loving person and when I
Speaker 2: really got that, it was more loving to say, well,
Speaker 2: what do you think you should do? But then what
Speaker 2: do you think might happen.
Speaker 1: I think that's the only way I'd be able to
Speaker 1: do it. You telling me and saying think about whether
Speaker 1: it is the most loving thing to do? That is
Speaker 1: what would get me out of it.
Speaker 2: Yes, me too.
Speaker 1: Otherwise, the urgency you spoke about, I feel that. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have to do it right now. I have to
Speaker 1: stop everything I'm doing and I need to find the
Speaker 1: solution for that person now. And it's stabilitating. It's like
Speaker 1: you just you can't think of anything else. You suddenly
Speaker 1: feel your heart go into your gut and you're like,
Speaker 1: I have to I have to fix this.
Speaker 2: But it's the child within you that feels that way,
Speaker 2: and it's the same for me. And so we have
Speaker 2: to tend to those little kids and say hey, hey, hey,
Speaker 2: everyone's okay. Yeah, it's all going to be okay. This
Speaker 2: is just a moment in time. This person is not fragile.
Speaker 2: We are not fragile, right, They're going to be okay.
Speaker 2: And when you stop the auto advice giving and the
Speaker 2: auto yes and all the automatic behaviors, it requires what
Speaker 2: you already have. I know you have a meditation practice.
Speaker 2: It's like this creates more internal space, and then think
Speaker 2: about the people who do you auto advice give the most,
Speaker 2: because certain people will trigger for sure these hfc's behaviors
Speaker 2: more than other people for whatever reason and so and
Speaker 2: each of us has a different story as to why
Speaker 2: that is. But when you start thinking about them, then
Speaker 2: make a plan and say, the next time Betty, if
Speaker 2: she's someone who's very provoking for you, comes to me,
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, what do you think you should do?
Speaker 1: Without anger and without yes, without that feeling of resentment
Speaker 1: for not being able to help either and not wanting
Speaker 1: to help.
Speaker 2: But you're going to have to process those feelings right
Speaker 2: recorded the book, one of the whole chapters is about
Speaker 2: emotional self regulation and having a much deeper intimate relationship
Speaker 2: with our own emotions. Right Because when you're in HFC,
Speaker 2: as soon as you feel uncomfortable, you get into action. Yep,
Speaker 2: you do something. So we are like here's our feelings,
Speaker 2: and we're like, bye, you, I don't like you. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to go make a phone call. I'm going
Speaker 2: to go to Amazon and buy that book and send
Speaker 2: it to them. I'm going to get into fix it mode.
Speaker 1: Grief does that to me, Fear does that to me,
Speaker 1: if my grandma's done, well, I'm calling someone to go
Speaker 1: give her some vitamin shots as soon as I possibly
Speaker 1: can I can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, definitely. And here's the thing. You know this,
Speaker 2: some of these things, this doesn't mean you're never going
Speaker 2: to give to the people you love. You're never going
Speaker 2: to say, hey, I have a thought. But what it
Speaker 2: will do is it will change the paradigm in your mind.
Speaker 2: We have to get out of automatic knee jerk reactions,
Speaker 2: because that's what they are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost not mindful. It isn't it's not mindful.
Speaker 1: It's not thoughtful. It's reactive.
Speaker 2: That's it. And even if you think it's loving, if
Speaker 2: it's a reaction, it's controlling. It's compulsive, and that is different.
Speaker 2: And you may choose the same thing. But once you
Speaker 2: have a mindful thought about it, you go, Okay, this
Speaker 2: is what the person is bringing it to me. You
Speaker 2: may say, you know, but I really do want to
Speaker 2: tell them about my client who had the same ailment
Speaker 2: and what they did to help them. I'm going to
Speaker 2: ask them if they're open to getting feedback. So, hey,
Speaker 2: are you open? I actually had a client with the
Speaker 2: same thing that you had, and she did something and
Speaker 2: maybe it'd be helpful to you or you hope it
Speaker 2: open to hearing it, And some people will say, well,
Speaker 2: that sounds so weird. You're going to ask the people
Speaker 2: in your life if they're open to hearing it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you are, because that's called having respect for their sovereignty.
Speaker 1: I loved what you said about triggers because now that
Speaker 1: I think about it, a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: trigger me and other people are things that I think
Speaker 1: I've worked on in myself, and when they're doing it,
Speaker 1: it triggers me because I'm like, no, but I know
Speaker 1: you can get out of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, but I know you can be better than this.
Speaker 1: But I know that you have the you have the
Speaker 1: capacity and ability to be more, to do more. And
Speaker 1: I think it comes from this fhere of like of
Speaker 1: what I have been in the past, and that triggers me.
Speaker 1: To not have anybody else feel that way, ye, to
Speaker 1: not feel like you're not worth anything, to not feel
Speaker 1: like you don't have something to give. I'm like, but
Speaker 1: you do. But I had to go through the thick
Speaker 1: of it to remember that for myself.
Speaker 2: Yes, And what you're describing as projection, yes, So it's
Speaker 2: painful like it's a sore spot for you, So we
Speaker 2: project that that's how they feel. May or they may not,
Speaker 2: but either way, it doesn't give us the right to
Speaker 2: trample on their boundaries. And it's so much more loving
Speaker 2: to say what would help? Is there anything I could do?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I believe you can do it yourself.
Speaker 2: Yes, by by simply not giving advice, You're like, I'm
Speaker 2: here because literally, loving wise, the flex is I will
Speaker 2: be with you in the fox hole and not fix you.
Speaker 2: That is the real flex is I love you enough
Speaker 2: to just be here. And it's listen, I'm in recovery
Speaker 2: for years, and it's still hard, especially with people like
Speaker 2: my husband I'm very close to. It's so hard to
Speaker 2: not just say I am I am witnessing you with
Speaker 2: so much compassion, so I say that like I hear you, babe.
Speaker 2: It sounds hard and I want to tell them what
Speaker 2: to do so bad, but I don't because he and listen,
Speaker 2: you can't be perfect to mean, we spend tons of
Speaker 2: time together. Obviously sometimes I do, but it's funny. The
Speaker 2: last time I was in LA we have a puppy
Speaker 2: and we lit all these things going on at the house.
Speaker 2: We like live on this little farm, and so I
Speaker 2: was texting him all these things, being like, do you
Speaker 2: know that Charlie needs to get her flee thing? And
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just texting from Afar And he was like, babe,
Speaker 2: I got it. And I was like, all right, I'm
Speaker 2: being super controlling, right and I just said up a video.
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm really sorry, am I being an HFC.
Speaker 2: He was like, you are, and I love you, but
Speaker 2: have faith. I got it. Keep in mind I met
Speaker 2: this guy. He was widowed and divorced and had three
Speaker 2: teenage sons and had a super successful career as an artists.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think he was fine for the
Speaker 2: whole forty years he lived without me. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: he really needs me to figure out when the lawnmowers
Speaker 2: are coming. He's like, yeah, he texted me, babe, I
Speaker 2: got it. But anyway, it's.
Speaker 1: Also the best distraction from your own course. You know,
Speaker 1: this wis fraction for your own self, is busying yourself
Speaker 1: in somebody else's business, whether they asked you for it
Speaker 1: or not. And that's also what I find I do
Speaker 1: sometimes if I find my emotions are overwhelming, or if
Speaker 1: i'm really worried about my grandma and everything that's happening
Speaker 1: with her. Let's say when she was unwell, I would
Speaker 1: find somebody else that I could because I can't fix
Speaker 1: what's happening there. Like, okay, she's in treatment right now,
Speaker 1: she's doing there's nothing I can do there. Okay, But
Speaker 1: who else can I find to fix? Because I can't
Speaker 1: fix you right now? That's out of my reach. That
Speaker 1: God's going to have to handle because I can't treat you.
Speaker 1: But that friend over there looks like she needs help.
Speaker 2: She could be doing so much better.
Speaker 1: Let me just do that so I don't have to
Speaker 1: sit in this emotion of grief and like worry, because
Speaker 1: fixing you at least makes me feel a bit better
Speaker 1: in another way.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so true, and it's actually such
Speaker 2: a good point. I'm glad that you brought it up
Speaker 2: about how it's the perfect way to avoid our own stuff.
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. Also, nobody listen. Nobody's checking on you,
Speaker 2: nobody's checking on me. No one's like, she I hope
Speaker 2: Harry is okay. They're like, obviously she's okay, She's always okay, She's.
Speaker 1: I've created that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, we have, we all have. It is
Speaker 2: the illusion, and so part of the process of getting
Speaker 2: into recovery is allowing people to know the truth when
Speaker 2: we're not okay, like asking for help, Allowing not just
Speaker 2: Jay right, allowing other people, because it's one thing like
Speaker 2: when you're us, you have one designated person where you're like, nay, you,
Speaker 2: I trust, I know you're doing it out of love.
Speaker 2: But they would have to be Jay's head over hills
Speaker 2: for you, my husband's head over heels for me. It's
Speaker 2: like it would have to be to such an extreme
Speaker 2: that I was so positive he was never going to
Speaker 2: screw me over, do you know what I mean? And
Speaker 2: that took a long time.
Speaker 1: And honestly, even when I'm in moments of like feeling
Speaker 1: that way, it takes a lot for me to even
Speaker 1: show up and show that I am in pain to him,
Speaker 1: even though he sees me every single day. Same I'd
Speaker 1: have to, like he'd have to really see that I'm
Speaker 1: being a bit off character. I mean, are you okay? Yes?
Speaker 1: Are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, I'm just stressed out
Speaker 1: by something. I'm just anxious about something. And then eventually
Speaker 1: and he's patient enough to keep asking I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: just really worried about this person, or I'm just really
Speaker 1: struggling with this, and I'll have a breakdown once in
Speaker 1: a well often and when it gets too much. But
Speaker 1: I really have to practice being vulnerable on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: because I think I've gotten so used to other people
Speaker 1: being vulnerable to me that when people are messaging me
Speaker 1: telling me about their things, I'm like, oh, no, I'm fine,
Speaker 1: I'm doing great, yep. And I'm like, oh, but it's
Speaker 1: just because I process it by myself. Like that's what
Speaker 1: I always tell myself. I'm good at processing things by myself,
Speaker 1: so I actually don't need to tell anybody.
Speaker 2: This is where that hyperindependence comes in, though, where we
Speaker 2: don't want to be a burden. Yeah. And when I
Speaker 2: was actively HFC, I really didn't want to owe anybody anything. Right,
Speaker 2: I'm happy to do for you. You doing for me,
Speaker 2: not so much. I'm not that interested in that. And
Speaker 2: my mother in the beginning with my relationship with Vick,
Speaker 2: actually it said to me, because vic would he would
Speaker 2: want to drive from New Jersey to pick me up
Speaker 2: for Manhattan, just to drive me back to New Jersey,
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, I could just go to pen
Speaker 2: station and take the train. It's so much faster. And
Speaker 2: my mother was like her, why are you depriving him
Speaker 2: the joy that he gets out of doing love it?
Speaker 2: He wants to come scoop you up. Let him come
Speaker 2: in and.
Speaker 1: Get you reciprocation. And that's what I've realized. I've stopped this.
Speaker 1: The reciprocal action of someone being able to actually give
Speaker 1: me love is in them being able to do something
Speaker 1: for me, and I block it. I'm like, no, actually
Speaker 1: I don't need your help. Okay, so you don't want
Speaker 1: me to love you. No, I actually don't want you
Speaker 1: to pick me up. I don't want you to help
Speaker 1: me on this situation. But it's blocking all these people
Speaker 1: from having a more deeper, meaningful relationship with me, because
Speaker 1: that is what human interaction in love is, right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's reciprocal. It's you, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: helping in that way. But you do something for me
Speaker 1: out of love, and I'll do something. And the actual
Speaker 1: receiving of the gift is just as important as the
Speaker 1: giving of the gift.
Speaker 2: Yes, my mother said, look at it like this, terr.
Speaker 2: See all of those nice things as him handing you
Speaker 2: a blue Tiffany's box when you slam that on the
Speaker 2: ground and stomp on it, because that's what you're doing
Speaker 2: when you say no. And I was like, I don't
Speaker 2: like that image at all, mom, but she was like,
Speaker 2: but I think it's true, and it really helped me
Speaker 2: be able to be a better receiver. If people want
Speaker 2: to get into recovery a a crisis can throw you
Speaker 2: back into being an active HFC. So just know that
Speaker 2: someone being sick can just make you go off the
Speaker 2: rails and feel like you want to control everything. So
Speaker 2: it's okay. You can have a little relapse and you
Speaker 2: can come back. But the things we have to get
Speaker 2: used to is Serrol Richardson has this great book called
Speaker 2: let Me Disappoint You, So we need to realize that
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to disappoint others to not abandon ourselves.
Speaker 2: And any relationship that is built on your self abandonment
Speaker 2: is not a healthy relationship. And most people who really
Speaker 2: love us don't want that we're doing it voluntarily, So
Speaker 2: realize it's okay. And even if your friend wants you
Speaker 2: to do something but you have an important thing the
Speaker 2: next and you can't go, it's okay that she's disappointed.
Speaker 2: She can love you and be disappointed. You can love
Speaker 2: her and be disappointed, like it's all right. And the
Speaker 2: other thing is that we really have to allow, as
Speaker 2: you were saying, we have to surrender to what is
Speaker 2: Maybe your friend isn't ready to change. Breathe in that
Speaker 2: expansion of just surrendering to what is true. You think
Speaker 2: about when you're an active HFC, it's like you're swimming
Speaker 2: upstream and like you're just you're laboring so hard, you're
Speaker 2: looking there's that tree, and then you're like that same tree,
Speaker 2: like how am I not any further up this river?
Speaker 2: And when you're in recovery, it's like you flip over
Speaker 2: and float and now you can see right. It's like
Speaker 2: you're going with the flow. You're allowing the chips to
Speaker 2: fall where they may. When they're not your chips, people
Speaker 2: feel so much less judged and controlled by you, So
Speaker 2: your relationships get better. But you have so much more
Speaker 2: bandwidth when you're not bleeding it left and right, because
Speaker 2: what it ends up happening really is that we have
Speaker 2: a glass ceiling of our own making. When we're actively HFC,
Speaker 2: your relationships will only be so deep and you will
Speaker 2: only be so successful because you're bleeding bandwidth everywhere.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how when I imagine when you're
Speaker 1: in recovery, one thing I would have to figure out
Speaker 1: is knowing what my value is in someone's life beyond it?
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Like how do you figure out?
Speaker 1: Because if your value that you've put on yourself in
Speaker 1: their life or in that relationship is I am useful
Speaker 1: because I do this, this, and this. It's creating almost
Speaker 1: a brand new relationship of beyond me. Like if ninety
Speaker 1: percent of my conversations are me helping you, what do
Speaker 1: we talk about now? Like, how do I create a
Speaker 1: new method of communication? How do I find a new
Speaker 1: value in our relationship beyond me helping you?
Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it is you have to
Speaker 2: question your own relationship to worth value exactly, and you
Speaker 2: really have to grasp that by virtue of being alive,
Speaker 2: you are worthy. You are valuable. Look at babies, look
Speaker 2: at puppies. We don't look at babies, and we're like,
Speaker 2: so are you going to make me dinner?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right?
Speaker 2: We just love you. We just love the shit out
Speaker 2: of you. You just exist. You don't do anything. You
Speaker 2: just eat and poop and fart. And we just can't
Speaker 2: get enough love. You are that baby, I am that baby,
Speaker 2: and so the worthiness is already in there. We learn
Speaker 2: somehow in life that we needed to be utilitarian to
Speaker 2: be a value. But now we're sort of reclaiming our birthright,
Speaker 2: which is our inherent worth. So there's that. And then
Speaker 2: if ninety percent of your conversation is helping, now at
Speaker 2: least half of that is going to be you getting
Speaker 2: to know the people that you love, asking expansive questions,
Speaker 2: allowing there to be silence, letting people here's the thing.
Speaker 2: People have a right to succeed and fail. People have
Speaker 2: the right to thrive and to flail, to not know,
Speaker 2: to be like I'm a hot mess. And then instead
Speaker 2: of saying but you can change it, or but it
Speaker 2: won't always be like this, or it could be worse
Speaker 2: like hfc's can be the most annoying silver lining detectives
Speaker 2: on the planet.
Speaker 1: The delusional optimistde it's like so annoying.
Speaker 2: Right when you're on the receiving end, you're like shut
Speaker 2: And also, how about let me be as miserable as
Speaker 2: I am right now? Maybe I just need you to
Speaker 2: have compassion for the pain that I'm in like with Thick,
Speaker 2: he barely ever does it anymore. But if he ever
Speaker 2: tries to fix I'm like, babe, do you actually think
Speaker 2: I'm not going to figure this out? Of course, look
Speaker 2: at my life. Of course I am right now though
Speaker 2: I'm hurt. I need you to be with me and
Speaker 2: my hurt and him just saying all right, honey, what
Speaker 2: can I do? It's amazing. Just be with me. Let's
Speaker 2: go for a ride, or just allow me to be
Speaker 2: hurt and don't try to fix it. But we can
Speaker 2: tell the people in our lives how to love us
Speaker 2: by saying, hey, I want to talk about this, but
Speaker 2: I'm actually not looking for any input. I don't need
Speaker 2: any solutions. What I would love if you could just
Speaker 2: be a compassionate ear. It really helps me to know
Speaker 2: that you know I'm in pain. I don't know why,
Speaker 2: but it just makes me feel better to Yes, we're
Speaker 2: together and I'm in pain, and you're witnessing me truthfully, authentically,
Speaker 2: and you love me anyway.
Speaker 1: I think that would also help you to process it
Speaker 1: faster and easier, because as soon as you acknowledge it,
Speaker 1: that's number one, then you share it with someone else,
Speaker 1: You've released it from your body in some way, you've
Speaker 1: released it from your mind in some way. I always say,
Speaker 1: if you don't feel like talking to someone, put pen
Speaker 1: to paper and at least you've got It's like the
Speaker 1: more and more you say it, the more you're processing it,
Speaker 1: the more you're processing it, the more it's releasing from you.
Speaker 1: And so if you can't talk to someone, put it
Speaker 1: onto paper. But if you can talk to someone, it's
Speaker 1: that idea of letting it go. Every layer is being
Speaker 1: shed the more that you think about it, the more
Speaker 1: you process it. And I feel like that would probably
Speaker 1: help get rid of those feelings a lot faster.
Speaker 2: Yes, And what you resist persists. So when we're in
Speaker 2: denial and when someone else is trying to fix what's
Speaker 2: wrong with us, right, it's so painful, we're holding on
Speaker 2: like a dog with a bone to the pain because
Speaker 2: I need you to see that I'm in pain, like
Speaker 2: I need that from the people in my life. Don't
Speaker 2: treat me like a problem to fix because it's so
Speaker 2: painful for me. You to want me to be in
Speaker 2: a neat little bowl like I was doing to my
Speaker 2: sister instead of just dealing with the fact that she
Speaker 2: wasn't ready. And it was a ship show of a situation,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't my shit show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've gotten used to telling my before. I used
Speaker 1: to be so worried about telling my mum when I
Speaker 1: was upset because I thought it would really worry her
Speaker 1: and she would get very affected by it. And then
Speaker 1: I realized it was just, you know, really stopping a
Speaker 1: big part of our relationship where I can say, Mom,
Speaker 1: I'm going to cry right now, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: cry a lot, and I just need you to know
Speaker 1: that you can't do anything about it, but I'm feeling
Speaker 1: this way. You may not understand it, but I need
Speaker 1: you to not worry because I'm going to be fine.
Speaker 1: And so we really had to get into this routine
Speaker 1: of her not frantically worrying because I'm crying. I'm a cryer.
Speaker 1: I need you to know that too. You don't know
Speaker 1: this because you've not seen me cry a lot, but
Speaker 1: I cry a lot, and I need you to know
Speaker 1: that that is my release. So if I come to
Speaker 1: you and I'm crying, it may be really serious or
Speaker 1: it may not be serious at all, but I just
Speaker 1: need you to see me cry, and I need you
Speaker 1: to tell me. That's literally all I need right now.
Speaker 2: Yes, And when we can tell people what we need,
Speaker 2: that's it. It's so amazing when they can give it
Speaker 2: to us, because that makes you feel loved.
Speaker 1: To be seen, yes, to be seen and not fixed,
Speaker 1: to be seen like you would.
Speaker 2: Be amazing if you would just get it together. It
Speaker 2: doesn't feel good.
Speaker 1: No, it really doesn't. You talk about people pleasing in
Speaker 1: the book as well, And I need to ask you
Speaker 1: a question. Is it actually possible for a human to
Speaker 1: actually not care if someone doesn't like them?
Speaker 2: I mean, I have not cracked the code on that
Speaker 2: personal speaks to know. I'm gonna say probably not. Now,
Speaker 2: there is a way of being extremely discerning about whose
Speaker 2: opinion you give a shit about. So I always tell
Speaker 2: people you want to create what I call a VIP
Speaker 2: section in your life. So these are people who are
Speaker 2: emotionally trustworthy. These are people where there is mutuality in
Speaker 2: your relationships and that you know are like rooting for you. Right,
Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean every person in your family has
Speaker 2: to be in the VIP section, right. These are people
Speaker 2: we really have to vet them from an emotional standpoint.
Speaker 2: And so I care what those people think. Yes I do,
Speaker 2: I do, but not all of them and not about everything.
Speaker 2: So even with I love my mother, I care what
Speaker 2: she thinks. I'm not taking career from my mother obviously,
Speaker 2: yeah right, like I'm not because that wouldn't be the
Speaker 2: person I would do it with, because that wouldn't make
Speaker 2: any sense. But I care that she thinks I'm a kind,
Speaker 2: decent human because that is who she raised me to be,
Speaker 2: and those are her values and my values as well.
Speaker 2: So she's always like, it makes me so proud everyone
Speaker 2: tells me how nice you guys are, because I have
Speaker 2: three older sisters, and that's her biggest compliment is that
Speaker 2: we're kind and considerate and we help those who are
Speaker 2: less fortunate. That that was the way that I was raised. Right,
Speaker 2: She doesn't care about a best selling book. She wants
Speaker 2: to know who did I help lately? You know what
Speaker 2: I mean?
Speaker 1: And what do you think is the mindset behind someone
Speaker 1: who because I've struggled with this a lot, especially since
Speaker 1: I've you know, goten an online platform and had a
Speaker 1: wider amount of people seeing me on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: and you know, I think lots of people struggle with
Speaker 1: this online. How can one decide when you're thinking about
Speaker 1: what someone thinks about you too much, Like, at what
Speaker 1: point do you I know you said it's about the
Speaker 1: people who while within your vicinity that you are emotionally
Speaker 1: invested with. But how can you stop worrying or what
Speaker 1: is the mindset behind caring so much about what people
Speaker 1: that you don't even know think about you? Well?
Speaker 2: I think that Listen, all of us who are influencers
Speaker 2: in different fields have to deal with it. This is
Speaker 2: reality because it's part of our business model, right. It's like,
Speaker 2: so it isn't like Instagram isn't just fun. It's like
Speaker 2: what we're doing because this is where our clients are,
Speaker 2: This is where the people who are buying books are,
Speaker 2: This is where you know and their fans, I mean
Speaker 2: they actually are. So I think that you have to
Speaker 2: be clear. I am very clear in my comment section
Speaker 2: that if there are any like real pot stirs, any
Speaker 2: people who are just looking to you know, what is it.
Speaker 2: There's this woman who was on the who was on
Speaker 2: Glennon Doyle Show, and she forgot her name, but she
Speaker 2: wrote a book and she talks about entrepreneurs of conflict,
Speaker 2: like people who are just looking to mix it up.
Speaker 2: They're just bored. They're just saying provocative shit just to
Speaker 2: be provocative, I will. If your heart isn't in the
Speaker 2: right place, you are blocked and kicked out of my
Speaker 2: community immediately. Now people can disagree with me, I have
Speaker 2: no problem with that as long as it's respectful. The
Speaker 2: moment people are bringing in any kind of disrespect, you're out.
Speaker 2: And I don't owe you any explanation you don't want
Speaker 2: because this shit is free. Yes, are you paying me
Speaker 2: to watch me on Instagram? You are not, And I'm
Speaker 2: giving I mean, I have six hundred and fifty videos
Speaker 2: on YouTube that are free. If somebody had no money,
Speaker 2: you could literally have mental health by going to my
Speaker 2: YouTube channel. Because I wanted to even the playing field
Speaker 2: that was like, it shouldn't just be people with money
Speaker 2: can have therapy that doesn't seem correct. So I'm always
Speaker 2: putting out like the highest quality free stuff that I
Speaker 2: possibly can because I want everyone to be able to
Speaker 2: do it. And even there, my team knows, and everyone knows.
Speaker 2: I've got rules of engagement everywhere where we're not giving
Speaker 2: each other advice. I'm the only therapist here, yes, And
Speaker 2: what's giving advice? It's just me. It's that one way
Speaker 2: stream right now that is correct. This is not a democracy.
Speaker 2: This is a benevolent dictatorship, and I'm a dictator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that when I reflect on
Speaker 1: why I have cared so much in the past, I
Speaker 1: really think one, obviously, there's a sense of really being
Speaker 1: in a state where you have more self worth. But
Speaker 1: also I think it's when you're speaking from a point
Speaker 1: of authenticity. I know when I have felt most alignment,
Speaker 1: when I felt like my words are matching my thoughts
Speaker 1: and my actions and everything feels like it's in flow
Speaker 1: and I'm not being another person online, I'm just being myself.
Speaker 1: That is when I care much less about what other
Speaker 1: people are saying. But as soon as and so really
Speaker 1: I see it more as a reflection of how my
Speaker 1: internal state is to how much I am taking on
Speaker 1: someone else's negative view of me. Because as soon as
Speaker 1: I'm showing up inauthentically when someone else tells me I am,
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that doesn't sound nice. Why are people
Speaker 1: saying that about me? How can they say that about me?
Speaker 1: And then I realize, actually, even just within this conversation,
Speaker 1: that a lot of it comes from when I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm at my best and I'm speaking words that
Speaker 1: I believe and I'm sharing things that mean so much
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, I don't look at how many comments
Speaker 1: there are. I don't look at how many likes that
Speaker 1: I do not care. I've said this. I've put this
Speaker 1: out into the world because I feel it and I
Speaker 1: want to share it, which is a super healthy way
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 2: Yes, right, Because it's the same thing with when you're
Speaker 2: if you're telling someone your boundary, let's say, and they
Speaker 2: don't like it. Yeah, the healing is in the asserting
Speaker 2: of self. Your healing is in the asking for what
Speaker 2: you want, even if the person can't give it to you. Yes,
Speaker 2: And so that's exactly what you're saying. Like, if I'm
Speaker 2: putting out what I want and people, now, it's different.
Speaker 2: If I say something I make a mistake publicly, a
Speaker 2: loss of people who are up in arms because I
Speaker 2: said something that was insensitive, that's different. Right, I'll handle that.
Speaker 2: I will apologize for that if I believe that I
Speaker 2: did it or whatever the thing is. But there's something
Speaker 2: about having all these eyes on us as influencers, and
Speaker 2: I you know, it's not even like I'm not even
Speaker 2: that influential, but more and more and more as it grows,
Speaker 2: and I think that we have to be solid internally
Speaker 2: because fame itself. You know, I used to be a
Speaker 2: talent agent before I became a therapist, and so I,
Speaker 2: you know, used to represent supermodels and celebrities. That was
Speaker 2: what my sort of niche was, and so I was
Speaker 2: always fascinated by the psychology of fame, what happens to
Speaker 2: people when they become famous. Then it became a psychotherapist,
Speaker 2: so then I it just I naturally just started having
Speaker 2: clients who are very highly visible. Just made sense, and
Speaker 2: it's unbelievable, Like what a head trip it can be
Speaker 2: to have hundreds of millions of eyes on you, and
Speaker 2: how self conscious it can make you. And so I've
Speaker 2: got lots of rules and regulations from my clients, so
Speaker 2: like not being you really have to have that fifteen
Speaker 2: minute timer no longer than that every day ten minutes
Speaker 2: is even better. Wow, of just keeping it real. You
Speaker 2: can't get in there. They cannot climb into those kind
Speaker 2: of sections.
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I agree, And I think that the more
Speaker 1: you just end up showing up as you and I
Speaker 1: think about that even when it comes to physically showing
Speaker 1: up like whenever I of course, unless you're like a
Speaker 1: beauty influencer doing makeup stuff. But for me, what really
Speaker 1: helps is if I show up and I'm just no filter,
Speaker 1: putting no makeup, speaking certain words that I know means
Speaker 1: something to me, then I'm so much less anxious when
Speaker 1: I'm going into the public world where I'm actually meeting people,
Speaker 1: Like I always used to think when I would meet people,
Speaker 1: they would feel like they meet a different version of me,
Speaker 1: because I'm actually quite an introvert. When I meet people
Speaker 1: for the first time, I'm really comfortable behind the screen.
Speaker 1: I'm really comfortable with my core friends and the people.
Speaker 1: But if I'm in larger environments, you might get a
Speaker 1: shyer version of me that they're not expecting. And so
Speaker 1: sometimes just being able to show up in the same
Speaker 1: way online as you would as to a person when
Speaker 1: you meet them allows it to be less discrepancy. I
Speaker 1: feel like there's just this duality that you end up having, yeah,
Speaker 1: that keeps fighting one another when you show up as
Speaker 1: something else, and then you'll you end up having to
Speaker 1: keep up with all these different versions of yourself, and
Speaker 1: it's so draining.
Speaker 2: It's so true. When I first started being public with
Speaker 2: this in two thousand and nine or whatever.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: One of my friends, Danielleporte, was like, you know, I
Speaker 2: would do my videos and be all like therapy life
Speaker 2: and I'd be all like pearls and shit and be
Speaker 2: like and Jerrychole or whatever I was doing. And she
Speaker 2: was like, where's my Jersey friend. Why don't you curse
Speaker 2: in your videos? Terror? Why are you not being funny?
Speaker 2: You're so funny? Yeah, And I'm like, well, because I'm
Speaker 2: a therapistist, I think this is what people are expecting.
Speaker 2: She's like, dude, don't don't even go down this road.
Speaker 2: And actually she was the first person whoever really encouraged me.
Speaker 1: She was like, to just be yourself when you walked
Speaker 1: in the door today, I have to say this. You know,
Speaker 1: when you think of what a psychotherapist is or like
Speaker 1: someone who's in that field, you do think of someone
Speaker 1: who's like serious, and you know, you walked in and
Speaker 1: my team was like, oh my gosh, she walked in
Speaker 1: and she cursed when she walked in. We love her
Speaker 1: energy like she is. And it's true, like as soon
Speaker 1: as you walked in the door, I felt who you were.
Speaker 1: You sat down here and you are who you are,
Speaker 1: and it creates less discrepancy for you, but also for
Speaker 1: the person that's experiencing you. It is literally the same
Speaker 1: person that walked in the door, that sat on this
Speaker 1: chair and is speaking in the mic. So I appreciate
Speaker 1: you doing that so much. It was really great to
Speaker 1: experience that from the moment I met.
Speaker 2: You right on, and hopefully that lets other people in
Speaker 2: my vicinity. I hope. I mean, that's not why I
Speaker 2: did it, want to be themselves.
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. There was one other part that you said
Speaker 1: in your book, which I really loved. You said, unhealed
Speaker 1: shame can show up in our lives as perfectionism. Could
Speaker 1: you explain that a little bit, because yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that would really useful.
Speaker 2: Well, think about what perfectionism is. It's like we're working
Speaker 2: so hard to be above reproach so no one can
Speaker 2: tell us we did it wrong, and then we become it.
Speaker 2: So like we've internalized the shamers, whoever, whoever those were
Speaker 2: in our lives because most of us, you know, hate
Speaker 2: to go back to the scene of the crime, but
Speaker 2: we need to because most of us as family of
Speaker 2: origin stuff, So we take it on ourselves to be like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything so right that no one
Speaker 2: will be able to say anything about me. So I
Speaker 2: will keep myself safe by being perfect. And the thing is,
Speaker 2: obviously there is no perfection, and life is messy as hell. Yeah,
Speaker 2: love is messy. Success is messy, right. Success includes failure, which,
Speaker 2: if you're a perfectionist, is like death where you can't
Speaker 2: even deal. And a lot of times perfectionists will not
Speaker 2: do things outside of their comfort zone if they're not
Speaker 2: masterful at it. So your life gets small if you're
Speaker 2: not good at it. And the thing is adventures and
Speaker 2: learning new skills and learning a new language, all the
Speaker 2: things that make life juicy and amazing. It's like you
Speaker 2: don't do them because you're not good at them.
Speaker 1: Because you have to become a beginner again, and that's
Speaker 1: too scary. Yes, what if you fail and people see it?
Speaker 2: Yes, and then that activates that shame.
Speaker 1: It became such a cage. I feel like I went
Speaker 1: through that, but I think mine was more from a
Speaker 1: state of feeling like I wasn't good at anything, and
Speaker 1: then when I found something I was good at and
Speaker 1: people were like, oh, you're actually really good at this,
Speaker 1: and this is great what you're doing, and it makes
Speaker 1: sense for you to then go back to doing something
Speaker 1: else that made me think I could fail at this. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was scary to me. Yes, but then I realized
Speaker 1: exactly what you said. I was in a little cage
Speaker 1: that I'd created for myself. But I wanted to say
Speaker 1: yes to things, and I wanted to try new things out,
Speaker 1: and I wanted that excitement in my life of trying
Speaker 1: something new and failing and experiencing and getting things wrong.
Speaker 1: But it was literally like I'd built this little cage
Speaker 1: around me and like, no, this is your safe zone.
Speaker 1: This is what you're good at.
Speaker 2: Stick to that.
Speaker 1: And then as soon as I started saying yes to things,
Speaker 1: and I've continued to say yes to things that I
Speaker 1: actually may not have been good at and I have
Speaker 1: failed at and they have been really terrible, but some
Speaker 1: of them have been amazing. Yes, and some of those
Speaker 1: things have I've found out so much about myself through
Speaker 1: doing them, and I'd be so sad if I hadn't
Speaker 1: taken the opportunity to learn that about myself.
Speaker 2: It's so enlivening to be in a learning curve, right.
Speaker 2: Think about what that feels like when you start to
Speaker 2: get good at something. It's so it's so exciting. What
Speaker 2: is the cost, right of We've already talked about relationships.
Speaker 2: We understand the cost to us is exhaustion, TMJ, autoimmune disorders, insomnia.
Speaker 2: There's so many things that I've seen in my practice
Speaker 2: over the many years, cancer MS. I mean, there's just
Speaker 2: this state of hypervigilance that most HFCs are in is
Speaker 2: really bad for your nervous system. If there's a whole
Speaker 2: entire chapter on nervous system stuff. What we're doing when
Speaker 2: we are always thinking about what this person should do
Speaker 2: and going into the future and being like, is this
Speaker 2: you know? Because anticipatory planning is another behavior that hfc's
Speaker 2: will employ, which is making sure if you're going to
Speaker 2: be with someone who's difficult, you make sure you think
Speaker 2: of everything that could go wrong. You know, Uncle Bob
Speaker 2: likes this kind of booze and he's a pain, and
Speaker 2: as I'm going to make sure I have that kind
Speaker 2: of booze and he has like gymis, so I won't
Speaker 2: put them together, and I'll like, I'm going to twist
Speaker 2: myself up in a pretzel and let myself on fire
Speaker 2: so all these people can be warm.
Speaker 1: Basically planning on family holiday, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, God, one hundred percent, and it's absolutely exhausting.
Speaker 2: But what happens is we end up living what I
Speaker 2: call life light lite because you're so much here that
Speaker 2: life ends up being only half as like, deep and
Speaker 2: juicy and delicious as it should be. Because we're so
Speaker 2: busy trying to control and word off bad things from
Speaker 2: happening and making sure no one else is in pain,
Speaker 2: that we're really sacrificing the depth of the life that
Speaker 2: we're meant to live.
Speaker 1: Doctor Gavimarte says this, and he said, when you're living
Speaker 1: in someone else's mind, you're not living your life. When
Speaker 1: you're constantly in someone else's mind worrying about what they're
Speaker 1: thinking about you, Well, they're thinking about you're not present
Speaker 1: in your own life, correct, And that really hit me.
Speaker 1: I was like, that's so true. I'm not observing my life.
Speaker 1: I'm not Actually, I may be physically present, but I'm
Speaker 1: not mentally present here. Only half of me is here
Speaker 1: because I'm constantly living in someone else is mine. And
Speaker 1: he says that even about the perception that someone has
Speaker 1: of you, if you're constantly thinking about how they're seeing it,
Speaker 1: who even are you? Are you experiencing who you are. Right,
Speaker 1: But yeah, thank you for hitting that, because that's a
Speaker 1: great point to make.
Speaker 2: Thank you for this exhausting, all exhausting. We need to rest.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. I always think about when I think
Speaker 1: about what rest I need. And I was so used
Speaker 1: to thinking rest is just okay, I need to wedge
Speaker 1: out from the TV, I need to sit, and I
Speaker 1: need to do nothing. And then I realized there's so
Speaker 1: many different types of rest. There's mental rest, physical rest,
Speaker 1: emotional rest, spiritual rest. What does that look like? Y
Speaker 1: And so sometimes I would have a full weekend of rest.
Speaker 1: What seems like rest, but my mind is still going yep.
Speaker 1: So I had to distinguish between what type of rest
Speaker 1: it was I needed. Is it social rest? But sometimes
Speaker 1: all I need is no planning, no nothing, no keeping
Speaker 1: to time, just being and allowing myself to physically be
Speaker 1: and mentally be present in whatever I am doing. And
Speaker 1: that for me felt like rest.
Speaker 2: Oh, I love it. I think that people who are
Speaker 2: listening and watching this, if you're wondering, how can you
Speaker 2: get out of this groove? Yeah, you feel like you're
Speaker 2: in this HFC groove. Before you agree to anything, I
Speaker 2: want you to ask yourself two questions. One can I
Speaker 2: do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?
Speaker 2: Two do I even want to do it? And if
Speaker 2: the answer is no, I want you to understand that
Speaker 2: that's a legitimate reason not to do something. And of
Speaker 2: course we're in relationships with other people. Obviously we're going
Speaker 2: to compromise in our relationships, but a lot of times
Speaker 2: we're just auto yesing it up to please other people
Speaker 2: and it's really really exhausting. And if you want a
Speaker 2: little guide, I created something for you. Oh amazing Terry
Speaker 2: Coole dot com forward slash HFC can't forget it. It's
Speaker 2: just an HFC toolkit that's useful to be Like, where
Speaker 2: do I start?
Speaker 1: Help?
Speaker 2: This is where you start?
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. I think that the main thing that
Speaker 1: stuck out to me. I mean so many things, but
Speaker 1: the one thing is knowing that the way that you
Speaker 1: can love someone the most is by not in putting
Speaker 1: yourself into their life, like sometimes love looks like that.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's for me, as someone
Speaker 1: who definitely identifies as being HFC, is it's knowing that
Speaker 1: that that simply will stop me from inserting myself unnecessarily
Speaker 1: into someone's life and feel satisfied and okay with it.
Speaker 2: Yes, and let let's let's be really specific and nuanced
Speaker 2: with the language that it's not inserting your opinion into
Speaker 2: what they should do, which is different because you might
Speaker 2: you might say, hey, do you want to go for
Speaker 2: a walk? I know you're not feeling great, so we
Speaker 2: can still be in their life. That's the part of
Speaker 2: being in the fox hole where you're like, maybe you
Speaker 2: want to go to a movie. We don't have to
Speaker 2: talk be with them even if they're not good company.
Speaker 2: Let others be with us even when we're not good company.
Speaker 2: For Francess, I won't be a good company. I was like,
Speaker 2: your job is not to entertain me as your friend.
Speaker 2: I just want to be with you, and if you're
Speaker 2: feeling low, I'm happy to just be with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much for this. This was
Speaker 1: honestly such an INCREDI I feel like I had a
Speaker 1: little therapy session. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: But I really think it's going to help so many
Speaker 1: people to build deeper relationships, more meaningful moments with people,
Speaker 1: and have a good amount of reflection on their own actions.
Speaker 1: And what they really mean to other people.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me things