WEBVTT - Terri Cole: Stop Trying to Fix Everyone. Signs You’re a High-Functioning Codependent and How to Break the Cycle 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.560 My question is, where is the boundary between Oh, I'm 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care for them, 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:10.479 to it being something that becomes from what I'm hearing 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.440 from you, a selfish notion of helping well. Terry Cole 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.680 is a psychotherapist and relationship expert. She's the author of 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.320 Too Much, a book that focuses on breaking the cycle 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:21.920 of high functioning codependency. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:25.239 High functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the 0:00:25.280 --> 0:00:28.000 outcomes of the people in your life to the detriment 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.760 of your own internal peace. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.120 So I'm the only person that can fix them. I'm 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.040 the only person that's going to be able to give 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:35.800 them this advice and the only person that's going to 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.000 be able to figure out what they need. And then 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:39.720 I was like, did they even ask for that? 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.320 Yes? But here's the thing, right, what is real level? 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.360 In our world? We talk about holding space for people, 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.960 I don't think most people even know what that means. 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.040 I'm Radi w Kiah and on my podcast A Really 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.080 Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.040 a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:04.360 allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:08.000 comfort together. Thank you so much for being here. I 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.200 am honestly so honored to have you here. I when 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:13.960 I first heard about you, I got your book and 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:16.880 I honestly read it NonStop like my team, the whole 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.000 pretty much the whole day I was sat there. You 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:20.720 can see my book. I've got notes, I've got a 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:24.480 highlighted bits in there, so many questions that came from it. 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:26.720 So thank you for putting out this message because I 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.400 think it's very much needed. But also I felt a 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.560 little bit targeted, to be honest, because I felt like 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:32.600 you'd written the book. 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:32.880 Just for me. 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:36.040 So yeah, thank you for being on this podcast. I 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:36.759 appreciate it. 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:38.000 Thank you so much for having me. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.240 I want to start off because this story in your book, 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.000 I feel demonstrates a lot of who you are as 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.559 a person, but also where all of this came from. 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:50.919 So you took home a stranger from a train station 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:52.880 back to your house to stay the night. 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.680 Sound there and not in a fun way. You know 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:57.600 people like you took home a stranger. It could sound 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.600 like really anxie. So you're like, all dark, No, that's 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:01.240 not what happened. 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.400 Tell me how that happened, and please go on and 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.200 tell the story because it's magnificent. 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:08.320 Yeah, he used to, for no reason at all, go 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:10.480 to My therapist was on Long Island, even though I 0:02:10.480 --> 0:02:12.440 was living in Manhattan, so right there, people are like, 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:14.880 that makes no sense. But she was my therapist in college. 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:16.560 I just wanted to stay with the same person. So 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.440 I would take a train every week out and walk 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.240 a mile to her house and then walk a mile 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.360 back and then take a ten thirty pm train. So 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.960 I'm on the train done with therapy, and I see 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:27.600 this kid in my mind now I'm about twenty two, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.120 when he's about nineteen, and I'm like, immediately my helper 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.040 PingER goes off. He's got like a metal T shirt on, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.000 He's holding a little blanket. I was like, where the 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.280 hell is this kid going at ten thirty at night 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.959 in this desolate station. So we get on and I 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:42.440 started talking to him on the train and I'm like, oh, 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:43.519 where are you going? He was like, oh, I was 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:45.240 supposed to, you know, I got hired to drive a 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.080 car back to Indiana and they just canceled it. So 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.639 I go, where are you going? He's like, I guess 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:52.360 I'm just going to sleep in the station. I was like, 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.440 what station and he said Penn Station. Now this was 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.720 the late eighties, and I was like, you can't sleep 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.520 in Penn Station, dude, You're gonna get mogged. Literally, it's 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.799 so dangerous. And he's like, well, I don't know anyone 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.280 in New York. I was like, yeah, you do? You 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.840 know me? And he was like. I was like, it's settled, 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.400 you're coming home to my house, Billy. So I was 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.320 living in a studio apartment nine one hundred and fourth 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.400 Street between West End Riverside, and I didn't even call 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.000 my roommate. I literally just brought this kid to my 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:22.360 house and he slept in our studio apartment with me 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:26.440 and my female roommate, simply because I felt overly responsible 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.720 for what would happen to him if I didn't save him. Now, 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.560 you know, people listening watching, they may be like, oh, 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:39.120 that's crazy, But here's the thing. Everyone has their own Billy. 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.840 Everyone has their own Billy stories where you somehow felt 0:03:42.880 --> 0:03:47.120 overly responsible and not just for a stranger, for people 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.520 in your life, for your friends, for your family members, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.800 for you, whoever. It is where you literally feel like 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.040 it is suddenly your responsibility to make sure that the 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:58.600 right thing happens for that person. 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.480 Yes, when I was reading through your book, I could 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.760 relate to that in so many different parts of my life, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.120 growing up, from when I was younger to my teenagers 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:08.920 to now. In my life, I'm there have been so 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.280 many situations where I have felt that way, maybe not 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.360 about a stranger, sometimes about a stranger, but many times 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.200 about people who've been in my life. So your new book, 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.960 too Much, this is the book I'm speaking about, and 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.320 in that you talk about high functioning codependency. Now, I 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.080 would love if you could just describe to everybody what 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:28.560 is one what is high functioning codependency, but also what's 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.960 the difference between codependency and high functioning codependency. 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:35.080 Yes, I'll tell you why I coined the phrase. So, 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.839 high functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:43.520 feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances that even 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.400 the careers of the people in your life to the 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.440 detriment of your own internal peace. Because all of us 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.960 are lovers and empaths and highly sensitive people, and we 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.880 love our people. Of course we're invested in their happiness. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:02.320 But when you're in HFC, you feel overly responsible. It tips. 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.880 There's a tipping point that we hit where we take 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.520 it on rather than just feeling compassion or sympathy for 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.640 we feel like we have to fix it. So that's 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.600 the definition. The why Why did I need that definition? 0:05:16.000 --> 0:05:20.479 Because in my therapy practice, I had incredibly capable women 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.560 very much like me, very successful business wise, you know, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.280 living their best life. And if I would say to them, Hey, 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.760 what you're describing, this is a codependent behavioral pattern you're 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:35.400 describing in your relationship, they would immediately reject the notion 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.120 of codependency as if I said a dirty word. And 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.120 they're like, hello, I'm making all the money, I'm making 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:45.159 all the moves, everything that happens is because I'm doing it. 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.640 Everyone comes to me. I'm the rock in my family, 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.440 I'm the rock in my friends group. Who am I? 0:05:50.440 --> 0:05:53.119 I'm not dependent on shit? Everyone's dependent on me, lady. 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.240 And I've realized my clients don't know what codependency is 0:05:57.640 --> 0:06:01.120 because they are they still have the myth of codependency 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:04.520 being melody baby codependent. No more, you have to be 0:06:04.600 --> 0:06:07.640 enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. I can't tell 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.320 you how many clients that I'm not involved with an addict, 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:15.200 I'm like, okay, So they don't see themselves in the problem, which, 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.080 of course, for me as a therapist was a problem 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.279 because how can I help you if you don't identify 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.000 And as soon as I added high functioning, all of 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:26.680 my clients not to quote Taylor, but were like me, 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.720 I'm the problem. It's made with no shame though they 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.080 were like, you're right, I am doing all the things 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.880 for all the people, or I am overly invested in 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:39.520 this and I'm exhausted. But part of the irony with 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.560 high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:48.120 the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is. 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.920 So we're still suffering and we're still getting burnt out. 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:52.680 What are the typical symptoms of someone who is. 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.160 HFC well, feeling over the responsible for other people in 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.240 all the ways? Being an auto advice giver, I can't 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.800 stop fixing your problem, we can't stop giving you our 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:09.359 grade a advice on everything, being an auto accommodator. So 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:10.960 what does this mean? I tell a story in the 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.280 book also where where this phrase came from. I coin 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.600 this phrase as well, because it was something I was 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:18.440 doing in my life and this was one of like 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:20.760 five years ago. So trust me, you can get into recovery, 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.920 but you're never going to be cured. I was at 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.640 a hair salon in Manhattan and I was getting something 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:27.360 on my hair where it's like a mask where I'm 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:30.000 laying in a sink but nothing's happening because I'm just 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:31.880 laying there, and all of a sudden, now the sink 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.520 traffic is backing up and each person that comes in 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.800 is standing. I'm becoming more and more anxious, Like I 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:40.760 wonder if they think I'm an idiot because I'm using 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:42.240 a sink but I'm not even using it and I 0:07:42.240 --> 0:07:44.280 could sit somewhere else, and maybe I should tell somebody. 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.160 Literally becoming until I get to a tipping point where 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.360 I have to raise my hand have the assistant come over. 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.760 I say to her, Hey, I could sit somewhere else. 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:54.800 She's like, no, shit, lady, And we're fine. We do 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:59.360 this every saturdaysterry Like we're fine. And I realized what 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.680 is the cost? Sight who cares? 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:01.960 Right? 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:06.360 Some people would say, you're just being Niceah, No, because 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.240 the thing is if you can't not do it, it's 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:15.480 not you being nice, it's a compulsion, if it hasn't 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.640 been a mindful decision, if it's a knee jerk reaction, 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:22.320 which is what mine was in that situation. It wasn't 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.640 me being nice, it was me trying to control yes. 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:31.560 And on the foundation of codependency is an overt or 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:36.000 covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.199 And you know, the first thing that comes to mind 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:41.000 is from a young age, whether it's not my spiritual 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:46.400 culture or just generally, there's a notion that service is 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.679 one of the highest forms of love. When you are 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.680 serving somebody else, it is one of the best things 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:53.880 that you could be doing for somebody. But I think 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:59.000 there's this difference between service with a desire to help 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.520 yourself and service with a desire to help the other 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:05.079 person genuinely. But can they not be both? So I 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:09.400 guess my question is where is the boundary between Oh, 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.320 I'm helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:15.040 for them, to it being something that becomes from what 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.600 I'm hearing from you, a selfish notion of helping. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.600 Well, I think that you have to the way that 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.720 we can tell when people always ask, how do I know? 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:30.640 Is you can start with doing a resentment inventory. M yeah, 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:36.040 because if your motivation is pretty clean, you won't feel 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.439 resentment for doing it. Now, you also have to make 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.000 sure that you're not stepping over boundaries for other people, 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:44.960 because a lot of times we're like, we'll do things 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.679 that people don't even ask us to do, and then 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.640 if they're not grateful, we're like mad always We're like 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.720 feel underappreciated. We're like, and you didn't throw me a 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.120 parade for the thing I did for you that you 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.280 didn't ask me to do and maybe didn't even brig 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.560 and want me to do. So I think that consent 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.840 and instead of making the assumptions right when we're auto 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.440 advice giving, we're assuming that's what people need or want 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.960 or it's really we just want to fix their problem. 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.160 One of the central stories in the book is something 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.559 that happened with one of my sisters. And this was 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:23.120 the beginning for me really honestly, I was in my 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.760 mid to late twenties. It was when I really started 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.760 to understand what high functioning codependency was, and I didn't 0:10:29.840 --> 0:10:32.559 know until then. So my sister was in an abusive 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.000 relationship living with this guy in the woods without running 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:37.480 water and no electricity. She was an alcoholic and he 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:42.360 was doing crack and abusive, so it's just an hfc's nightmare, right. 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.920 I love her to death. Can you imagine and think 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.800 about one of your siblings in that situation. You're like, 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:51.440 all hands on deck until we get her out of there, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.559 Like what do we need to do? So I was 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:56.200 failing to get her out of there, and I was 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:59.839 crying to my therapist for god knows probably the fiftieth time, 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:03.240 saying what am I going to do? I've done everything? 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.199 And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.599 makes you think you know what your sister needs to 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.559 learn in this lifetime and the way she needs to 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:17.199 learn it? And I was like so mad, and I said, 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.240 I think we can agree she doesn't need to do 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.120 it with a crackhet in the middle of the woods 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:23.960 without reading water. And she said, you know, terror, I 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:27.840 actually can't agree to that because I'm not God. I 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:29.959 can't agree because I'm not God, and neither or you. 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.320 But do you know what's happening for you? And I 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.600 was like, obviously not, so please clue me in. What 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.600 is happening? For me, And she said, you have worked 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:42.800 hard to create a pretty harmonious life because I stopped 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:44.760 drinking when I was twenty one, Like, I've been on 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.439 a spiritual and mental health path for many, many years. 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.640 And she said, and your sisters dumps your fire of 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.000 a life. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what she 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.640 was saying, is messing with your peace. So you want 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.959 to fix her so your pain can end. 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:03.680 I can relate to that so much. You always think that, 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.160 Like for me when I was reading it, I definitely 0:12:06.200 --> 0:12:09.360 have those tendencies. And I have this notion from a 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.280 young age, whether it's friends or relationships, whatever, is like 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.520 I'm the only person that they would listen to. I'm 0:12:14.559 --> 0:12:16.880 the only person that can fix them. I'm the only 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:18.920 person that's going to be able to give them this advice. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:20.319 I'm the only person that's going to be able to 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.840 figure out what they need. And then I was like, 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.600 did they even ask for that? Did they even ask 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:27.680 for my help? They've told me all these things. I'm 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:31.320 observing all these things that they're doing. But my problem is, 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.000 like my problem is when I experience that, whether it's friends, 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:39.760 family members' relationships, how do you stop yourself from because 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.920 if I'm picking up the phone to them, I can't 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.440 not say something. I can't not say I need like 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:48.560 you need to stop this. We need to figure this out. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.080 Let's figure out a solution. How can I create a 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.320 way that I can have a relationship with someone who 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.679 is going down a terrible path. 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:01.240 Without controlling them, well without without controlling them without because 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:02.080 that's what that is. 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.040 When it's without feeling like I can help them. 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.360 Yes, but here's the thing. What is real love? Right? 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.040 What is real love? In our world? We talk about 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:14.160 holding space for people. I don't think most people even 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.840 know what that means. It means I can hang with 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.120 you in the foxhole of your dark night of the soul, 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.200 and I can love you instead of trying to fix you. 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.480 I can ask you how can I best support you? 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.760 What would be helpful? What you can say? Though I 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.280 have scripts galore? So what you can say when your 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.360 friend calls and she's got a disastrous, terrible idea and 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:40.199 you want to talk her out of it so badly? Instead, 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.040 when she's telling you, you're going to say, okay, so 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.000 tell me, tell me about this idea. What do you 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.120 think you should do? Tell me about why now? Why now? 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:56.679 With this? Tell me stop talking more listening, create expansion. 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.720 That's holding space is when your friend's like, I don't 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:01.160 know what to do. I'm gonna quit my job, or 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.240 I'm gonna bring up with my husband or whatever it is, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.400 and you go and they go, I want to know 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.440 what you think. And even though that's like just so 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.560 seductive that you want to just tell them all the things, 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.080 instead you're going to say, okay, before I say anything, 0:14:16.480 --> 0:14:17.960 I want to know what you think you should do. 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:22.240 But then, would you say that somebody who's going down, like, 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.400 let's say you know somebody really well, let's say it's 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.720 a family member and you can see them slowly going 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:28.760 down a path that's going to lead to their detriment. 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.000 In your book you talk about you say that sometimes 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.200 people have to hit rock bottom to really want to change, 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.640 to really want to make a difference in their life. So, 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.160 as an observer of somebody that you absolutely love, would 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:43.560 you say that you just have to sit back and 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:44.000 do nothing. 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.400 No, I think that. Listen, there's a lot of gray 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:52.480 in between auto advice giving and watching them light themselves 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:56.160 on fire. Right right, there's two extremes here in the middle. 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:02.000 You can say I'm concerned. You can say I love you. 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.560 And when I see this situation, I get a pit 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:05.240 in my stomach. 0:15:05.400 --> 0:15:06.040 Yeah. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.520 I don't know exactly why, but I'm really I'm so worried. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.440 They may say mind your own business. If they're really 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:14.840 in denial about what they're doing, they may say I 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.560 don't need your two cents, and you can say, okay, 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:21.600 I love you, I'm here, but I have to tell 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:23.000 you it concerns me. 0:15:23.760 --> 0:15:26.520 I loved when you said in the book that what 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.600 your therapist, which, by the way, therapist sounds amazing, but 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:34.240 when she said to you that their discomfort is making 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.520 you feel uncomfortable. Their pain is bringing you pain. And 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:39.480 so as much as you may want to be helping them, 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.520 part of it is you want to help yourself, yes, 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.680 because you don't want to be in that discomfort. Watching 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.480 them in their discomfort is making you uncomfortable. It may 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.120 not even be making them uncomfortable, correct, And I've noticed 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:52.760 that where I'm like, oh no, but I want my 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:55.800 parents to be as comfortable as possible, Or my sister's upset, 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.160 how can I make her not be upset? And so 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:00.960 then I'm thinking of every single post thing she tells 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:02.560 me one thing, Oh I've got a cough for a 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:05.320 cull or there's something wrong with my health, and I'm 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:07.640 like looking up every possible thing she can go to. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.520 And for me, I think it started a lot more 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.160 became exacerbated when I moved away from home, where I 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:15.960 was like, I have to be helpful in some way. 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:17.840 I need to be useful. I need to make sure 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.680 that if I'm not there physically, I will do all 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:23.600 the planning. I will make sure that I am constantly 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:26.600 on alert and there for them whenever they need it. 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.760 And so it was definitely, you know, on reflection after 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.440 reading your book, I was saying, thinking to myself, I 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.440 was like, actually, it's for me. It's for me to 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.400 feel like I am useful. It's for me to feel 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:40.720 like I can look after them, and I'm finding a 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.840 way any way possible to insert myself into their life 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.400 so they know that I am looking after them and 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.160 that I'm here totally. 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:50.840 And there's a way you can still do those things, 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.320 but that actually will deepen the intimacy and your relationships. 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.320 By asking expensive questions, Oh that's. 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.440 Really yeah, expensive questions. That's it. 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.800 So what was that like? And then what happened? And 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:06.200 then what did he say? Well, how do you feel 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.360 about it now? Yeah? Then what like when I'm talking 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.160 to my husband in particular, because he's not as much 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:16.199 of a talker as I am, I'm always so clear 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.080 to be like, you have the floor yea. 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:21.359 And that's amazing because I think when people don't talk 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.800 as much, you actually find it easier to inset yourself 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.080 into their life. Like there are a lot of people 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:29.000 who have their boundaries and they're not that they're going 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.520 to say no, I'm good, like I don't need your advice. 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:35.560 But then it's the people who stay quiet or maybe 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:37.800 don't have as much of a voice, and it makes 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:39.600 it easier. And you think that's a sign that you 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.040 need to be helping them, but really it's a sign 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:43.720 that you need to be helping them open up to 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.440 their own ideas. Yeah. 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.879 And the thing is, years ago my husband and I 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.080 had a situation happened, which really because we've been together 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.639 twenty seven years, wow and thanks. And there was a 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.959 situation where he had someone who worked for him who 0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.400 actually embezzled a bunch of money from an I'd say 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.320 us and I was so mad. I was like, we're 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.640 going to get legal. I'm going to find I'm going 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.640 to get her. I was so he's such a he's 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.080 really an EmPATH, such a kind, he's an artist, he's 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.520 very successful. But I always felt like I needed to protect, 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.320 you know, and I was, of course making it worse, 0:18:19.520 --> 0:18:22.800 inadvertently making him feel worse. And then finally, like I 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.679 was talking about in therapy, and I got it like 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.840 I need to not be doing what I'm doing and 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.240 that it's not being supportive, it's just helping my ego 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:32.959 feel better. And so I said to him, Babe, how 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.639 can I best support you with this situation? And he 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:38.000 just flat out and said, Terror, you can have faith 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.359 that I'm going to get it done and I'm going 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:41.120 to do it my way. 0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:44.640 Yes, that's what he needed. He needed you to show 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.560 that you believed he could do it himself. 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.880 And then he did and didn't go legal and got 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.879 every dime back. And when I said to him, I 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.360 was like, babe, why, like you know, I was all 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.919 so angry, and he was like, Terror, she listen, I 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.240 cannot kick someone when they're down, even when they did 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.960 something wrong. She's like, I've known her for almost twenty years, Like, 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:07.840 I know this person died and that's why her books 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:10.560 got all messed up. Like he had this compassionate understanding 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:13.280 and he's like, as long as she makes it right. 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.040 And he was a better person than me. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.680 But and why do you think, like, what's the deep 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:24.080 rooted reasons that people do care too much to this 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:25.720 point where it's actually unhealthy. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.640 Well, it's when we really think about it, it's how 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.080 we're raised and culturally, certainly cultural elements even more so 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:36.320 being Indian, right, but American too. Be a good girl, right, 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:38.280