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Speaker 1: My question is, where is the boundary between Oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care for them,

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Speaker 1: to it being something that becomes from what I'm hearing

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Speaker 1: from you, a selfish notion of helping well. Terry Cole

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Speaker 1: is a psychotherapist and relationship expert. She's the author of

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Speaker 1: Too Much, a book that focuses on breaking the cycle

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Speaker 1: of high functioning codependency.

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Speaker 2: High functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the

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Speaker 2: outcomes of the people in your life to the detriment

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Speaker 2: of your own internal peace.

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Speaker 1: So I'm the only person that can fix them. I'm

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Speaker 1: the only person that's going to be able to give

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Speaker 1: them this advice and the only person that's going to

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Speaker 1: be able to figure out what they need. And then

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Speaker 1: I was like, did they even ask for that?

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Speaker 2: Yes? But here's the thing, right, what is real level?

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Speaker 2: In our world? We talk about holding space for people,

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Speaker 2: I don't think most people even know what that means.

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Speaker 1: I'm Radi w Kiah and on my podcast A Really

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Speaker 1: Good Cry, we embrace the messy and the beautiful, providing

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Speaker 1: a space for raw, unfiltered conversations that celebrate vulnerability and

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Speaker 1: allow you to tune in to learn, connect and find

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Speaker 1: comfort together. Thank you so much for being here. I

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Speaker 1: am honestly so honored to have you here. I when

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Speaker 1: I first heard about you, I got your book and

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Speaker 1: I honestly read it NonStop like my team, the whole

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Speaker 1: pretty much the whole day I was sat there. You

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Speaker 1: can see my book. I've got notes, I've got a

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Speaker 1: highlighted bits in there, so many questions that came from it.

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Speaker 1: So thank you for putting out this message because I

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Speaker 1: think it's very much needed. But also I felt a

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Speaker 1: little bit targeted, to be honest, because I felt like

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Speaker 1: you'd written the book.

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Speaker 2: Just for me.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you for being on this podcast. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I want to start off because this story in your book,

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Speaker 1: I feel demonstrates a lot of who you are as

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Speaker 1: a person, but also where all of this came from.

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Speaker 1: So you took home a stranger from a train station

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Speaker 1: back to your house to stay the night.

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Speaker 2: Sound there and not in a fun way. You know

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Speaker 2: people like you took home a stranger. It could sound

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Speaker 2: like really anxie. So you're like, all dark, No, that's

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Speaker 2: not what happened.

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Speaker 1: Tell me how that happened, and please go on and

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Speaker 1: tell the story because it's magnificent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he used to, for no reason at all, go

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Speaker 2: to My therapist was on Long Island, even though I

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Speaker 2: was living in Manhattan, so right there, people are like,

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Speaker 2: that makes no sense. But she was my therapist in college.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to stay with the same person. So

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Speaker 2: I would take a train every week out and walk

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Speaker 2: a mile to her house and then walk a mile

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Speaker 2: back and then take a ten thirty pm train. So

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Speaker 2: I'm on the train done with therapy, and I see

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Speaker 2: this kid in my mind now I'm about twenty two,

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Speaker 2: when he's about nineteen, and I'm like, immediately my helper

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Speaker 2: PingER goes off. He's got like a metal T shirt on,

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Speaker 2: He's holding a little blanket. I was like, where the

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Speaker 2: hell is this kid going at ten thirty at night

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Speaker 2: in this desolate station. So we get on and I

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Speaker 2: started talking to him on the train and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 2: where are you going? He was like, oh, I was

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Speaker 2: supposed to, you know, I got hired to drive a

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Speaker 2: car back to Indiana and they just canceled it. So

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Speaker 2: I go, where are you going? He's like, I guess

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to sleep in the station. I was like,

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Speaker 2: what station and he said Penn Station. Now this was

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Speaker 2: the late eighties, and I was like, you can't sleep

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Speaker 2: in Penn Station, dude, You're gonna get mogged. Literally, it's

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Speaker 2: so dangerous. And he's like, well, I don't know anyone

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Speaker 2: in New York. I was like, yeah, you do? You

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Speaker 2: know me? And he was like. I was like, it's settled,

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Speaker 2: you're coming home to my house, Billy. So I was

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Speaker 2: living in a studio apartment nine one hundred and fourth

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Speaker 2: Street between West End Riverside, and I didn't even call

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Speaker 2: my roommate. I literally just brought this kid to my

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Speaker 2: house and he slept in our studio apartment with me

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Speaker 2: and my female roommate, simply because I felt overly responsible

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Speaker 2: for what would happen to him if I didn't save him. Now,

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Speaker 2: you know, people listening watching, they may be like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's crazy, But here's the thing. Everyone has their own Billy.

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Speaker 2: Everyone has their own Billy stories where you somehow felt

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Speaker 2: overly responsible and not just for a stranger, for people

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Speaker 2: in your life, for your friends, for your family members,

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Speaker 2: for you, whoever. It is where you literally feel like

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Speaker 2: it is suddenly your responsibility to make sure that the

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Speaker 2: right thing happens for that person.

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Speaker 1: Yes, when I was reading through your book, I could

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Speaker 1: relate to that in so many different parts of my life,

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Speaker 1: growing up, from when I was younger to my teenagers

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Speaker 1: to now. In my life, I'm there have been so

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Speaker 1: many situations where I have felt that way, maybe not

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Speaker 1: about a stranger, sometimes about a stranger, but many times

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Speaker 1: about people who've been in my life. So your new book,

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Speaker 1: too Much, this is the book I'm speaking about, and

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Speaker 1: in that you talk about high functioning codependency. Now, I

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Speaker 1: would love if you could just describe to everybody what

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Speaker 1: is one what is high functioning codependency, but also what's

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Speaker 1: the difference between codependency and high functioning codependency.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'll tell you why I coined the phrase. So,

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Speaker 2: high functioning codependency is you being overly invested in the

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Speaker 2: feeling states, the outcomes, the situations, the circumstances that even

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Speaker 2: the careers of the people in your life to the

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Speaker 2: detriment of your own internal peace. Because all of us

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Speaker 2: are lovers and empaths and highly sensitive people, and we

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Speaker 2: love our people. Of course we're invested in their happiness.

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Speaker 2: But when you're in HFC, you feel overly responsible. It tips.

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Speaker 2: There's a tipping point that we hit where we take

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Speaker 2: it on rather than just feeling compassion or sympathy for

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Speaker 2: we feel like we have to fix it. So that's

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Speaker 2: the definition. The why Why did I need that definition?

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Speaker 2: Because in my therapy practice, I had incredibly capable women

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Speaker 2: very much like me, very successful business wise, you know,

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Speaker 2: living their best life. And if I would say to them, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what you're describing, this is a codependent behavioral pattern you're

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Speaker 2: describing in your relationship, they would immediately reject the notion

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Speaker 2: of codependency as if I said a dirty word. And

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Speaker 2: they're like, hello, I'm making all the money, I'm making

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Speaker 2: all the moves, everything that happens is because I'm doing it.

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Speaker 2: Everyone comes to me. I'm the rock in my family,

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Speaker 2: I'm the rock in my friends group. Who am I?

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Speaker 2: I'm not dependent on shit? Everyone's dependent on me, lady.

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Speaker 2: And I've realized my clients don't know what codependency is

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Speaker 2: because they are they still have the myth of codependency

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Speaker 2: being melody baby codependent. No more, you have to be

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Speaker 2: enabling an alcoholic to be a codependent. I can't tell

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Speaker 2: you how many clients that I'm not involved with an addict,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, So they don't see themselves in the problem, which,

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Speaker 2: of course, for me as a therapist was a problem

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Speaker 2: because how can I help you if you don't identify

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Speaker 2: And as soon as I added high functioning, all of

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Speaker 2: my clients not to quote Taylor, but were like me,

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Speaker 2: I'm the problem. It's made with no shame though they

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Speaker 2: were like, you're right, I am doing all the things

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Speaker 2: for all the people, or I am overly invested in

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Speaker 2: this and I'm exhausted. But part of the irony with

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Speaker 2: high functioning codependency is that the more capable you are,

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Speaker 2: the less codependency looks like codependency, but it still is.

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Speaker 2: So we're still suffering and we're still getting burnt out.

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Speaker 1: What are the typical symptoms of someone who is.

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Speaker 2: HFC well, feeling over the responsible for other people in

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Speaker 2: all the ways? Being an auto advice giver, I can't

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Speaker 2: stop fixing your problem, we can't stop giving you our

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Speaker 2: grade a advice on everything, being an auto accommodator. So

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Speaker 2: what does this mean? I tell a story in the

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Speaker 2: book also where where this phrase came from. I coin

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Speaker 2: this phrase as well, because it was something I was

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Speaker 2: doing in my life and this was one of like

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Speaker 2: five years ago. So trust me, you can get into recovery,

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Speaker 2: but you're never going to be cured. I was at

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Speaker 2: a hair salon in Manhattan and I was getting something

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Speaker 2: on my hair where it's like a mask where I'm

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Speaker 2: laying in a sink but nothing's happening because I'm just

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Speaker 2: laying there, and all of a sudden, now the sink

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Speaker 2: traffic is backing up and each person that comes in

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Speaker 2: is standing. I'm becoming more and more anxious, Like I

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Speaker 2: wonder if they think I'm an idiot because I'm using

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Speaker 2: a sink but I'm not even using it and I

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Speaker 2: could sit somewhere else, and maybe I should tell somebody.

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Speaker 2: Literally becoming until I get to a tipping point where

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Speaker 2: I have to raise my hand have the assistant come over.

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Speaker 2: I say to her, Hey, I could sit somewhere else.

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Speaker 2: She's like, no, shit, lady, And we're fine. We do

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Speaker 2: this every saturdaysterry Like we're fine. And I realized what

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Speaker 2: is the cost? Sight who cares?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Some people would say, you're just being Niceah, No, because

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Speaker 2: the thing is if you can't not do it, it's

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Speaker 2: not you being nice, it's a compulsion, if it hasn't

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Speaker 2: been a mindful decision, if it's a knee jerk reaction,

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Speaker 2: which is what mine was in that situation. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: me being nice, it was me trying to control yes.

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Speaker 2: And on the foundation of codependency is an overt or

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Speaker 2: covert bid or attempt to control someone else's outcome.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the first thing that comes to mind

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Speaker 1: is from a young age, whether it's not my spiritual

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Speaker 1: culture or just generally, there's a notion that service is

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Speaker 1: one of the highest forms of love. When you are

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Speaker 1: serving somebody else, it is one of the best things

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Speaker 1: that you could be doing for somebody. But I think

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Speaker 1: there's this difference between service with a desire to help

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Speaker 1: yourself and service with a desire to help the other

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Speaker 1: person genuinely. But can they not be both? So I

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Speaker 1: guess my question is where is the boundary between Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm helping somebody because I genuinely have love and care

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Speaker 1: for them, to it being something that becomes from what

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you, a selfish notion of helping.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that you have to the way that

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Speaker 2: we can tell when people always ask, how do I know?

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Speaker 2: Is you can start with doing a resentment inventory. M yeah,

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Speaker 2: because if your motivation is pretty clean, you won't feel

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Speaker 2: resentment for doing it. Now, you also have to make

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Speaker 2: sure that you're not stepping over boundaries for other people,

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Speaker 2: because a lot of times we're like, we'll do things

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Speaker 2: that people don't even ask us to do, and then

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Speaker 2: if they're not grateful, we're like mad always We're like

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Speaker 2: feel underappreciated. We're like, and you didn't throw me a

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Speaker 2: parade for the thing I did for you that you

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Speaker 2: didn't ask me to do and maybe didn't even brig

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Speaker 2: and want me to do. So I think that consent

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Speaker 2: and instead of making the assumptions right when we're auto

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Speaker 2: advice giving, we're assuming that's what people need or want

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Speaker 2: or it's really we just want to fix their problem.

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Speaker 2: One of the central stories in the book is something

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Speaker 2: that happened with one of my sisters. And this was

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Speaker 2: the beginning for me really honestly, I was in my

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Speaker 2: mid to late twenties. It was when I really started

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Speaker 2: to understand what high functioning codependency was, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: know until then. So my sister was in an abusive

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Speaker 2: relationship living with this guy in the woods without running

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Speaker 2: water and no electricity. She was an alcoholic and he

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Speaker 2: was doing crack and abusive, so it's just an hfc's nightmare, right.

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Speaker 2: I love her to death. Can you imagine and think

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Speaker 2: about one of your siblings in that situation. You're like,

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Speaker 2: all hands on deck until we get her out of there,

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Speaker 2: Like what do we need to do? So I was

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Speaker 2: failing to get her out of there, and I was

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Speaker 2: crying to my therapist for god knows probably the fiftieth time,

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Speaker 2: saying what am I going to do? I've done everything?

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Speaker 2: And she said, Terry, let me ask you something. What

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Speaker 2: makes you think you know what your sister needs to

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Speaker 2: learn in this lifetime and the way she needs to

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Speaker 2: learn it? And I was like so mad, and I said,

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Speaker 2: I think we can agree she doesn't need to do

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Speaker 2: it with a crackhet in the middle of the woods

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Speaker 2: without reading water. And she said, you know, terror, I

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Speaker 2: actually can't agree to that because I'm not God. I

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Speaker 2: can't agree because I'm not God, and neither or you.

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Speaker 2: But do you know what's happening for you? And I

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Speaker 2: was like, obviously not, so please clue me in. What

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Speaker 2: is happening? For me, And she said, you have worked

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Speaker 2: hard to create a pretty harmonious life because I stopped

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Speaker 2: drinking when I was twenty one, Like, I've been on

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Speaker 2: a spiritual and mental health path for many, many years.

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Speaker 2: And she said, and your sisters dumps your fire of

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Speaker 2: a life. I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but that's what she

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Speaker 2: was saying, is messing with your peace. So you want

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Speaker 2: to fix her so your pain can end.

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Speaker 1: I can relate to that so much. You always think that,

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Speaker 1: Like for me when I was reading it, I definitely

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Speaker 1: have those tendencies. And I have this notion from a

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Speaker 1: young age, whether it's friends or relationships, whatever, is like

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Speaker 1: I'm the only person that they would listen to. I'm

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Speaker 1: the only person that can fix them. I'm the only

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Speaker 1: person that's going to be able to give them this advice.

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Speaker 1: I'm the only person that's going to be able to

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Speaker 1: figure out what they need. And then I was like,

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Speaker 1: did they even ask for that? Did they even ask

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Speaker 1: for my help? They've told me all these things. I'm

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Speaker 1: observing all these things that they're doing. But my problem is,

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Speaker 1: like my problem is when I experience that, whether it's friends,

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Speaker 1: family members' relationships, how do you stop yourself from because

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Speaker 1: if I'm picking up the phone to them, I can't

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Speaker 1: not say something. I can't not say I need like

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Speaker 1: you need to stop this. We need to figure this out.

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Speaker 1: Let's figure out a solution. How can I create a

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Speaker 1: way that I can have a relationship with someone who

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Speaker 1: is going down a terrible path.

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Speaker 2: Without controlling them, well without without controlling them without because

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Speaker 2: that's what that is.

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Speaker 1: When it's without feeling like I can help them.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but here's the thing. What is real love? Right?

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Speaker 2: What is real love? In our world? We talk about

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Speaker 2: holding space for people. I don't think most people even

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Speaker 2: know what that means. It means I can hang with

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Speaker 2: you in the foxhole of your dark night of the soul,

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Speaker 2: and I can love you instead of trying to fix you.

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Speaker 2: I can ask you how can I best support you?

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Speaker 2: What would be helpful? What you can say? Though I

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Speaker 2: have scripts galore? So what you can say when your

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Speaker 2: friend calls and she's got a disastrous, terrible idea and

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Speaker 2: you want to talk her out of it so badly? Instead,

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Speaker 2: when she's telling you, you're going to say, okay, so

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Speaker 2: tell me, tell me about this idea. What do you

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Speaker 2: think you should do? Tell me about why now? Why now?

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Speaker 2: With this? Tell me stop talking more listening, create expansion.

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Speaker 2: That's holding space is when your friend's like, I don't

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Speaker 2: know what to do. I'm gonna quit my job, or

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna bring up with my husband or whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: and you go and they go, I want to know

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Speaker 2: what you think. And even though that's like just so

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Speaker 2: seductive that you want to just tell them all the things,

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Speaker 2: instead you're going to say, okay, before I say anything,

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Speaker 2: I want to know what you think you should do.

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Speaker 1: But then, would you say that somebody who's going down, like,

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Speaker 1: let's say you know somebody really well, let's say it's

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Speaker 1: a family member and you can see them slowly going

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Speaker 1: down a path that's going to lead to their detriment.

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Speaker 1: In your book you talk about you say that sometimes

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Speaker 1: people have to hit rock bottom to really want to change,

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Speaker 1: to really want to make a difference in their life. So,

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Speaker 1: as an observer of somebody that you absolutely love, would

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Speaker 1: you say that you just have to sit back and

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Speaker 1: do nothing.

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Speaker 2: No, I think that. Listen, there's a lot of gray

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Speaker 2: in between auto advice giving and watching them light themselves

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Speaker 2: on fire. Right right, there's two extremes here in the middle.

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Speaker 2: You can say I'm concerned. You can say I love you.

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Speaker 2: And when I see this situation, I get a pit

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Speaker 2: in my stomach.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I don't know exactly why, but I'm really I'm so worried.

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Speaker 2: They may say mind your own business. If they're really

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Speaker 2: in denial about what they're doing, they may say I

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Speaker 2: don't need your two cents, and you can say, okay,

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Speaker 2: I love you, I'm here, but I have to tell

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Speaker 2: you it concerns me.

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Speaker 1: I loved when you said in the book that what

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Speaker 1: your therapist, which, by the way, therapist sounds amazing, but

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Speaker 1: when she said to you that their discomfort is making

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Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable. Their pain is bringing you pain. And

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Speaker 1: so as much as you may want to be helping them,

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Speaker 1: part of it is you want to help yourself, yes,

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Speaker 1: because you don't want to be in that discomfort. Watching

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Speaker 1: them in their discomfort is making you uncomfortable. It may

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Speaker 1: not even be making them uncomfortable, correct, And I've noticed

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Speaker 1: that where I'm like, oh no, but I want my

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Speaker 1: parents to be as comfortable as possible, Or my sister's upset,

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Speaker 1: how can I make her not be upset? And so

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Speaker 1: then I'm thinking of every single post thing she tells

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Speaker 1: me one thing, Oh I've got a cough for a

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Speaker 1: cull or there's something wrong with my health, and I'm

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Speaker 1: like looking up every possible thing she can go to.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I think it started a lot more

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Speaker 1: became exacerbated when I moved away from home, where I

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Speaker 1: was like, I have to be helpful in some way.

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Speaker 1: I need to be useful. I need to make sure

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Speaker 1: that if I'm not there physically, I will do all

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Speaker 1: the planning. I will make sure that I am constantly

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Speaker 1: on alert and there for them whenever they need it.

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Speaker 1: And so it was definitely, you know, on reflection after

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Speaker 1: reading your book, I was saying, thinking to myself, I

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Speaker 1: was like, actually, it's for me. It's for me to

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Speaker 1: feel like I am useful. It's for me to feel

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Speaker 1: like I can look after them, and I'm finding a

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Speaker 1: way any way possible to insert myself into their life

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Speaker 1: so they know that I am looking after them and

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Speaker 1: that I'm here totally.

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Speaker 2: And there's a way you can still do those things,

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Speaker 2: but that actually will deepen the intimacy and your relationships.

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Speaker 2: By asking expensive questions, Oh that's.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah, expensive questions. That's it.

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Speaker 2: So what was that like? And then what happened? And

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Speaker 2: then what did he say? Well, how do you feel

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Speaker 2: about it now? Yeah? Then what like when I'm talking

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Speaker 2: to my husband in particular, because he's not as much

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Speaker 2: of a talker as I am, I'm always so clear

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Speaker 2: to be like, you have the floor yea.

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Speaker 1: And that's amazing because I think when people don't talk

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Speaker 1: as much, you actually find it easier to inset yourself

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Speaker 1: into their life. Like there are a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who have their boundaries and they're not that they're going

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Speaker 1: to say no, I'm good, like I don't need your advice.

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Speaker 1: But then it's the people who stay quiet or maybe

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Speaker 1: don't have as much of a voice, and it makes

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Speaker 1: it easier. And you think that's a sign that you

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Speaker 1: need to be helping them, but really it's a sign

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Speaker 1: that you need to be helping them open up to

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Speaker 1: their own ideas. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is, years ago my husband and I

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Speaker 2: had a situation happened, which really because we've been together

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Speaker 2: twenty seven years, wow and thanks. And there was a

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Speaker 2: situation where he had someone who worked for him who

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Speaker 2: actually embezzled a bunch of money from an I'd say

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Speaker 2: us and I was so mad. I was like, we're

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Speaker 2: going to get legal. I'm going to find I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get her. I was so he's such a he's

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Speaker 2: really an EmPATH, such a kind, he's an artist, he's

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Speaker 2: very successful. But I always felt like I needed to protect,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I was, of course making it worse,

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Speaker 2: inadvertently making him feel worse. And then finally, like I

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Speaker 2: was talking about in therapy, and I got it like

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Speaker 2: I need to not be doing what I'm doing and

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Speaker 2: that it's not being supportive, it's just helping my ego

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Speaker 2: feel better. And so I said to him, Babe, how

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Speaker 2: can I best support you with this situation? And he

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Speaker 2: just flat out and said, Terror, you can have faith

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Speaker 2: that I'm going to get it done and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to do it my way.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's what he needed. He needed you to show

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Speaker 1: that you believed he could do it himself.

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Speaker 2: And then he did and didn't go legal and got

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Speaker 2: every dime back. And when I said to him, I

387
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Speaker 2: was like, babe, why, like you know, I was all

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Speaker 2: so angry, and he was like, Terror, she listen, I

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Speaker 2: cannot kick someone when they're down, even when they did

390
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Speaker 2: something wrong. She's like, I've known her for almost twenty years, Like,

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Speaker 2: I know this person died and that's why her books

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Speaker 2: got all messed up. Like he had this compassionate understanding

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Speaker 2: and he's like, as long as she makes it right.

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Speaker 2: And he was a better person than me.

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Speaker 1: But and why do you think, like, what's the deep

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Speaker 1: rooted reasons that people do care too much to this

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Speaker 1: point where it's actually unhealthy.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's when we really think about it, it's how

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Speaker 2: we're raised and culturally, certainly cultural elements even more so

400
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Speaker 2: being Indian, right, but American too. Be a good girl, right,

401
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Speaker 2: turn that frown around. Hey, if you don't have anything

402
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 2: nice to say, buddy, don't say anything at all. Nobody

403
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Speaker 2: is like encouraging us to assert ourselves. Not in any culture.

404
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Speaker 2: When you're a little girl, it's be nice.

405
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Speaker 1: And the.

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Speaker 2: Perception of being nice is definitely more important than actually

407
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Speaker 2: being nice. It's like about what other people think about you.

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Speaker 2: And so we come from a deficit when it comes

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Speaker 2: to self care in a real way. And so we

410
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Speaker 2: have all of this outward focus. We're so used to

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Speaker 2: focusing on other people and what they need and as

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Speaker 2: you said, being of service. And yet that's not the

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Speaker 2: same way as having heart connections with people. It's a

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Speaker 2: way to make ourselves and I used to do this

415
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Speaker 2: when I was young in relationships. I would overfunction my

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Speaker 2: ass off in some relationship because I thought then the

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Speaker 2: person couldn't ditch me or reject me. I'll make myself

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Speaker 2: so replaceable that they wouldn't be able to But of

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Speaker 2: course that's not accurate, and that's not how it goes.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, back to what we were saying about the qualities.

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Speaker 2: One is also hyperindependence, where it's hard to let other

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Speaker 2: people do things for us, or it's hard to ask

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Speaker 2: people to do things, which of course leads to burnout

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Speaker 2: and resentment in all of these things. And there is

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Speaker 2: a phenomenon though, which I think is interesting, and I

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Speaker 2: think you and Jay have it, and I think my

427
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 2: husband and I have it as well. If you marry

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Speaker 2: someone who's even more of an HFC than you, which

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Speaker 2: you did and so did I, because I don't even

430
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Speaker 2: need to know more about him than I already do

431
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Speaker 2: to know that that is that's a good union because

432
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 2: they're the one person, or at least that person you

433
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 2: allow to do things for you. Is that accurate?

434
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, I need to force his way in yeah, same, yeah, yeah,

435
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,239
Speaker 1: to force his way in be like, no, I can

436
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 1: do this by myself. He's like, you can do it,

437
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 1: but you don't have to do it by yourself exactly,

438
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh okay. But my reasoning was

439
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,679
Speaker 1: because I was like, no, I have to prove I

440
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: can do it by myself. But then, you know, I

441
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: was thinking about the capacity, you know, when you were

442
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: talking about resentment earlier, and I always thought about how

443
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: you know, Jay would always say to me, why do

444
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: you do all these things for people if you feel

445
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: a certain way about it? And I was like, because

446
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: I always want to be able to want want people

447
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:54,920
Speaker 1: to know that I am here to do things for them.

448
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,680
Speaker 1: And what I realized was it's either if I feel

449
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 1: resentment a good sign for me has always been and

450
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 1: if I do something for someone and I'm expecting it

451
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: back in the same way, or if I feel irritated

452
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: by afterwards, it's either a sign that I have gone

453
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: past my own boundaries and limits and my capacity, or

454
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 1: it's a sign that I need to learn how to

455
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,199
Speaker 1: feel myself to be able to expand my capacity. So

456
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: it can iv one or the other. But staying in

457
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: that zone means that I would keep over exerting myself,

458
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 1: keep overgiving to my detriment. They weren't asking for it,

459
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: I did it myself. I would always offer that help.

460
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: But then if I'm coming away saying, well, I did this, this,

461
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,119
Speaker 1: and this, calculating what they owe me back, that's a

462
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: sign that I have gone past my capacity and boundary.

463
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: But I do believe that there are ways that you

464
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: can replenish yourself if you have this practice of constant

465
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 1: replenishment where you can probably keep expanding the ability to give,

466
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: where you then don't feel that resentment. You then don't

467
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 1: feel that calculative how am I going to receive back

468
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 1: from this person? But it takes so much inward work

469
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: and so much giving back to yourself to be able

470
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: to feel like you can give more and more.

471
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: Yes, Andy, please. So that's that's one way of looking

472
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,959
Speaker 2: at it. Or we can get really clear about what

473
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 2: is our motivation forgiving, right, because mutuality when you think

474
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 2: about what is the opposite of codependency, it's interdependency or

475
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: healthy dependency. Right where I can depend on this friend

476
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 2: when I'm when I'm low, I know that they'll step

477
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: up for me, or and then they can depend on

478
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 2: me when they're low. They know I'll step up for them,

479
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: Like there is something so important. So I don't know

480
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: that it's about giving more, right because I'm pretty sure

481
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 2: you're giving plenty because there's no HFC I know who's not.

482
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 2: But again, there could be there could be a spiritual

483
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 2: angle to that, because that is also praised and well

484
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 2: thought of, as you said, like being of service. But

485
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: I think the real importance in your close relationships in

486
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: particular is the mutuality and all of us being better listeners. Yes,

487
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: and not meaning let's let people you know, toxically dump

488
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: on us talking about the same bad situation they're in,

489
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 2: never changing. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about

490
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: our addiction to auto advice giving and knowing the answer

491
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 2: kind of. And here's the thing with the HFC is

492
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,400
Speaker 2: we're good problem solveers and we're smart, and we're very capable,

493
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: and you want to be like I have an idea,

494
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: I have a thought, I know what you should do,

495
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 2: like the resources exactly, let's do it. We're already like

496
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm already texting someone, I'm googling, I'm underlining the book

497
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: for you. I can't can't how many people can I

498
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: buy this book?

499
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: You're looking for a house, I've sent you about.

500
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: Ten exactly one of those.

501
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: I'm talking.

502
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: It's so true because we're so high functioning. But what

503
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: changes for you and for the other person when you

504
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: just become open to sharing the attention, like tell me

505
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: about your experience. If my husband is an artist and

506
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 2: he also will go into like war zones and draw

507
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 2: on the spot war, I don't know they believe it

508
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: or not. That's the thing some people do, who would

509
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 2: want to do it? He does, but I will. He'll

510
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: be telling me a story about something like that, and

511
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 2: I will be like, let's get some food, let's sit down,

512
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,479
Speaker 2: like I want to hear the whole thing from beginning

513
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 2: to end. No co opting of that story. There's no

514
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 2: need for me to say, oh, yeah, I know what

515
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: you mean, because one day when I did blah blah blah,

516
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: just you, babe, just you telling me everything about those

517
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: six weeks that you were in the couple or wherever

518
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: the hell he was, you know what I mean. And

519
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: letting him know that what he thinks his experiences, especially

520
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 2: when I'm out with him, are important because it's not

521
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 2: like we're not together. We've been together so long. It's

522
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 2: not like I'm talking to for an hour while I'm

523
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: in New York where I'm wherever, and when I'm in

524
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: LA while he's in New York. You know, I'm texting like, hey, babe,

525
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: good night. I love you to say to Mark, you

526
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: know what I mean. But if it's something that's important

527
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: that I feel like I'm missing, I want to make

528
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,399
Speaker 2: sure he gets like, here's my full attention all the time,

529
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: because he's literally still the most interesting person I've ever met.

530
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: You know.

531
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really so much more about listening and hearing.

532
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, you may think you know better, but

533
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: listen to everything before you even give a comment. It's

534
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 1: a definite thing before you even speak one word.

535
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: Yes. And what my therapist said to me after my

536
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: sister thing after she said you don't know, and then

537
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, well what do I do? She

538
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 2: said boundaries, So it was a beginning give my boundary

539
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: life where she was like, you don't have to talk

540
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: to her about this guy, and I was like, I don't.

541
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 2: That's it, Yes, fantastic, because I don't want to. It

542
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: is torturous. So I call my sister, and she helped

543
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: me come up with a script, set a boundary and

544
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: just said, hey, I can't talk about this, and I

545
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: love you and if and when you ever want to

546
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: get out, I'm so your person always.

547
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: How did you feel after that conversation. I've tried that

548
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: before and it really like, I find it so difficult

549
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: because I'm like, am I having a fake relationship with

550
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: this person? Or actually now from what you're saying, and

551
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 1: maybe it is more of a real relationship it is?

552
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: And am I willing to be uncomfortable? Because of course

553
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: I felt guilty? Yes, I felt scared. It's an illusion

554
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: though that me letting her dump on me was make

555
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: making her safer in her situation, because it was not.

556
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: She was just as threatened as she was. And what

557
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 2: ended up happening for me was that I had to

558
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 2: learn to let the chips fall where they may when

559
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 2: they're not my chips. And this is part of the problem,

560
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: is that we think all the chips are our chips,

561
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 2: but they're not. And less than nine months later, she

562
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 2: called me and she was like, Hi, are you still

563
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: my person? And I was like, getting in my car,

564
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: she got out, she got sober, she went back to school.

565
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 2: She never was in another abusive relationship. But here's the

566
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,919
Speaker 2: most important part. Instead of her littlest sister being the

567
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: hero of her story, she is the hero of her

568
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: own story. And so her sobriety could stick, her transformation

569
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 2: could stick because she chose it. It's humiliating to I

570
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: have your youngest sister quote unquote save you, even if

571
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: you're grateful for like a minute, but ultimately you just

572
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: feel like a loser. And so I didn't rob her

573
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: of that experience. And my therapist said, Terry, listen to me.

574
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 2: I'm not saying you shouldn't save your sister. I'm saying

575
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: you can't. It is an impossibility. So what you're doing,

576
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 2: you're just throwing shit at the wall trying to see

577
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,679
Speaker 2: what will stick. But the bottom line is that it

578
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: is not your situation to fix, and it is presumptuous

579
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 2: even if she's in a rough spot, it's presumptuous for

580
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: you to think you know exactly what she should be doing,

581
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,720
Speaker 2: because you don't know. And you have to respect her

582
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: sovereignty and her right to be self determined even if

583
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: it feels like a disaster, which it did, and she.

584
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:47,959
Speaker 1: May not be ready for it, and that's why she

585
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: wasn't until she was until she was Yeah, And so

586
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: how do you, you know, distinguish between when you are

587
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: let's say you do have somebody in your life like

588
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: you did, where you really wanted to help them. And

589
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: one thing I'd read in your book which was a

590
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 1: big light bulb for me was the enabling mentality. You

591
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: speak about how when you are trying to help someone

592
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: and you end up helping them over and over and

593
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: over again, or you end up helping them a little

594
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: bit too much. What you said, it takes away their

595
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: power and it takes away their ability to do it.

596
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: And so what is a way that we can create

597
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: help in someone's life And where do you start knowing

598
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: the boundaries of where to stop helping? Because they say

599
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: someone's happy to take the help, because there are some

600
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: instances where they'll say no, but there will be instances

601
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: where they want to be a bit lazy and they

602
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 1: don't necessarily want to put in the work themselves. So

603
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: how do you know when it is time to stop

604
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: helping if that person is still taking the help.

605
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: Well, you have to go back to your resentment inventory,

606
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: because if you can't do it without feeling resentful, which

607
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 2: eventually it'll become too much. Then you know you're giving

608
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 2: exactly as you said before, past your capacity. And I

609
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: think we want to make a distinction between when you're

610
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: overgiving to someone. What I really took away from that

611
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: situation is my therapist was also saying, hey, when you're

612
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: throwing money at this or when you were helping her temporarily,

613
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: you're also robbing her of the impetus to change her situation,

614
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: like the drive. It's the same way that I always

615
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: say with my clients, like, don't have sex with your ex.

616
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 2: When people are like, it's just sex, I'm like, but

617
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 2: it's not because energetically, you were dispersing the energy that

618
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: would help you, you know, because energetically we're like, you know,

619
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: your energy comes out and it's like these little hooks

620
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 2: that go out and hook things. But when you're dispersing it,

621
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: even if you say it's just sex, you're not going

622
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: to your person who's looking for you is not going

623
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 2: to find you because your light is dimmed every time

624
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 2: you have sex with your ex. According to me, listen,

625
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: that's not factual. That's just me. Yeah, And this is

626
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 2: the same thing that she needed to get to exactly

627
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: what you said, a certain bottom where she had had it,

628
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: not that I had had it for her, She had

629
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: to have had it, and only then would she be

630
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,360
Speaker 2: ready to go and have it stayed, because you know

631
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 2: she had left and gone back before, but when she

632
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: was ready to go, she left and never.

633
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 1: Went back stuck. Yeah. I always think about that with

634
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: somebody that was that I was friends with when I

635
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: was younger, and I would be like, Okay, I'm going

636
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: to give you money for this, this, and this because

637
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: you need it right now. And so I give them

638
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: money and be like, but this, if I do this,

639
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: then this means it's your time to change, right Like

640
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: you're going to change. I'm going to help you out

641
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: this time. And then your commitment back to me is

642
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: not the money, it's you committing to me that you're

643
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: going to change. And I would always be so disappointed

644
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: because I was like, but I've done but I've given

645
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: you what you need to stay on your feet. I've

646
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: given you what you need to support you. Why can't

647
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: you stick to this for yourself? Like, why cant I'm

648
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: not asking for me? And my I would always say,

649
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm not asking for it for me I'm saying, all

650
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 1: I want in reciprocation is for you to do it for.

651
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: You, right, But here's the thing you were asking for it, right.

652
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: So this is what we realize, that you not living

653
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: to your greatest potential, or you being in a terrible

654
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: relationship or whatever the person is doing, or you you

655
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: about to be evicted, right, whatever it is that you

656
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 2: saving them. Another thing that happens is especially with kids,

657
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 2: is that what is the messaging when we save you? Yes,

658
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: My message to you is I don't think you can.

659
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: Do it, yes, And you don't even realize you're doing that.

660
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: Yes. And then the kid is like, you're right, I

661
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: can't do it. I feel like a loser. And the

662
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: parent who is bailing them out over and over is like,

663
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 2: I agree, I think you're a loser too.

664
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I just realized that that exactly what

665
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: you're saying is what I felt growing up, which is

666
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: why I ended up being somebody now who doesn't want

667
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: to take help. And so my parents were so loving

668
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: and I had an older sister she was incredible. But

669
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: every time I didn't do my coursework, every time I

670
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 1: was late giving something in, every time I mess up

671
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: thing up. They would stay up all night to help me.

672
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: They would do anything possible to make sure I got

673
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: that done, to make sure I got that great, to

674
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: make sure whatever it was.

675
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 2: Yep.

676
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: And at that time I was like, thank god there

677
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: helped me. And then I realized I completely felt powerless

678
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: over my own life when I moved away from them,

679
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: moved to New York, and I suddenly was like, I

680
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: have no idea how to do anything by myself. I

681
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: don't know how to pick cutlery without getting their opinion

682
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: on it. I don't know how to help myself, how

683
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: to do anything, how to make decisions for myself, because

684
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: I constantly asked them to save me, and they saved me,

685
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: and so yeow yeah.

686
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 2: A family of hfc's and they were infantilizing you, right,

687
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: So they were enabling for sure, but there was an infantilization, right,

688
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: like keeping you like a dependent child in a way.

689
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 2: And listen, here's the thing, right, this is all love.

690
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: Right, it is all love. It was so much love.

691
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: We know this, And so part of it is those

692
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: who feel like, oh, I don't want to say be

693
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,719
Speaker 2: mean to my family, or I don't want to and

694
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: you're not being mean either.

695
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: They were the most incredible parents and I love them

696
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: so much. Yes, but the traits of loving too much,

697
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: it does exist because you're.

698
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: Doing too much and when we really love, you know,

699
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: there's a beautiful poem about childhood and about rearing children

700
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: in the Prophet, that very famous book, and it talks

701
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 2: about parents as the bows and that our children are

702
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 2: the arrows, and that our job is to like let

703
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: them go far and let them go. And you see

704
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: parents who can't stop parenting. They continue to want to

705
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: insert themselves into the center of their child's life. I

706
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 2: had a client who her husband's mother insisted that all

707
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: of the five siblings and their family is they had

708
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: a big, huge house come home every Christmas for Christmas. Finally,

709
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: years of therapy later, she was like, here's the thing.

710
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 2: I don't want our kids. I want to be home

711
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 2: and my house Christmas morning. I'm over revolving our life

712
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: around your mother as the matriarch. And it's so selfish

713
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 2: to expect that raising kids. I'm married, a widower, I

714
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 2: have three you know, I'm a bonus mom to three

715
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: amazing sons. I have seven grandbabes. My feeling is who

716
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: once they were married I was like, your wife is

717
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 2: your first family. Now we're your family of origin. So

718
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: whoever had the youngest baby, I was like, for the holidays,

719
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 2: we'll go there, because I don't expect you with a

720
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: three month old to travel to New York. And they

721
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 2: live all over the place because they went far and

722
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 2: it's like we continue to have our life. I love them.

723
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that you can't be close to your family,

724
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: but there is an appropriateness of like phases of our lives.

725
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 2: When you have adult children and they're having children of

726
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 2: their own, you want them to be able to be

727
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: focused on their family. And I love being a Grandparent's

728
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,799
Speaker 2: the best right, but I also don't expect them to

729
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: revolve their life around mine and this travel schedule or

730
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 2: what we're doing.

731
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,359
Speaker 1: That's such a great way of putting it. Like I

732
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: even culturally, I think for us, especially coming from an

733
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: Indian background, it is like this culture where the sun

734
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: stays the baby for the rest of their life. Your child.

735
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 1: As a woman, you have to stay protected and so

736
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: your parents look after you, and then you get in

737
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: inverted comments given to your husband to look after you,

738
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: and everything is like you are being ushered from one

739
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: place to another, and I think for mothers in my culture,

740
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: including my own mother, who I love, if you're listening,

741
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: but she finds it really difficult to let us be adults.

742
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: So everything is like, are you sure you want to

743
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: spend money on this? And are you sure you want

744
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: to do that? I don't think it's a good idea.

745
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: And me and my sister are both getting to a

746
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: point where we're saying, Mum, we love you so much.

747
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: We appreciate that you have an opinion on this. We

748
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: really do, and I understand it may be different to ours,

749
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: but it's our life and you have to let us

750
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: make that decision. And now that you're saying it, what

751
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: it triggers in me every time she gives her opinion

752
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: is you think I don't know what's best for you. You

753
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: think I can't do it. You think I'm not making

754
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 1: financial decisions that are good for myself. You think I'm

755
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: not making a friend decisions. Still telling me that these

756
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: friends may not be telling me that I am not

757
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: making wise decisions for myself, second guessing my own decisions

758
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: for myself when I've tried really hard to create a

759
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 1: system where I believe in what I'm doing is the

760
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: right way to do it, but.

761
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 2: It's also these are your mistakes to make if they

762
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: are mistakes quote unquote. You know, it's funny. My mother

763
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: had this quote on her refrigerator all of my life.

764
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 2: It's like an irma bombback quote, and it said, I

765
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 2: promise not to take credit for your accomplishments. If you

766
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 2: promise not to blame me for your failures, that's amazing.

767
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 2: And I thought that was great. That didn't mean that

768
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: she wasn't auto advice giving me up through my twenties

769
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,439
Speaker 2: until I finally said her. I was like, Mom, listen,

770
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: if you can't just compassionately listen to what I'm saying

771
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: give me advice that I'm not going to take that

772
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 2: I do not want, then I will not call you

773
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: when I'm in pain.

774
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 1: Yeah.

775
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 2: And she was like, oh, everyone else can say. I

776
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 2: was like, Mom, this is how it is. I love

777
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: you and I am not looking for input. Can you

778
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 2: hang with me in my indecision right now? She's like,

779
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 2: I guess so. I mean she didn't want to, but

780
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 2: she did it, you know, And I love.

781
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: Her me in my indecision right now, that's all. That's

782
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: all we want. It I just want you to listen, yes,

783
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: and I just want to know that you're there. But

784
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want you to try and fix it and.

785
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: Have faith that I can do it. It's very I

786
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: have to say, heterosexual relationships. There's a lot with my

787
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: therapy practice that I see where and in the beginning

788
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: of my relationship with my husband where there's a lot

789
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: they love us to death and they want to fix yes,

790
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 2: and they have to learn that. For me, at least,

791
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: my husband did to say to me, are we brainstorming?

792
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: You want my opinion? Like, what are we doing if

793
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: there's a problem? And he always says, and how this

794
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: is you? Guys? If you're listening, man, this is the

795
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 2: easiest line. Just say it. How can I best support

796
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 2: you right now? Sometimes I'm like, do you want to

797
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: fool around? Do you want to make me a cup

798
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 2: of tea? Do you want to go take a ride

799
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: in the truck? Like yeah, I will tell you what

800
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 2: I need if you ask, and if you treat me

801
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: like a problem to be solved, Which is kind of

802
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 2: ironic because as an HFC, that's how we treat everyone else,

803
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: like people who are just about projects. Right, We're like

804
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 2: I have thoughts about all the things that you can change,

805
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: and I will help you change them, but nobody likes that.

806
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 2: It is the same way that you feel about your

807
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 2: mom and how I felt about my mind.

808
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: I was like, gosh, I've just take I've done the

809
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: same thing, and I'm telling how off for doing it.

810
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 2: But it's okay because you're learning and we're growing and

811
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: we're changing because we don't want to be HFCs. We

812
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: want to be hfc's in recovery. And let's paint a

813
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: picture of what that looks like. Can we?

814
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah? Please? Now I need to know, because what can

815
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: I look forward to exactly?

816
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, it's a much in some respects,

817
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: it's a lighter lift. When you really understand what is

818
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: your side of the street and your relationships, you will

819
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 2: stop in a panic with all this urgency to feel

820
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 2: like you have to come up with a solution for

821
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,919
Speaker 2: what other people need to do. You will realize, hey,

822
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 2: that that is not the most loving thing to do.

823
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 2: And that helped it change for me because I do

824
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: see myself really as a loving person and when I

825
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: really got that, it was more loving to say, well,

826
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: what do you think you should do? But then what

827
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: do you think might happen.

828
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: I think that's the only way I'd be able to

829
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,279
Speaker 1: do it. You telling me and saying think about whether

830
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: it is the most loving thing to do? That is

831
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: what would get me out of it.

832
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: Yes, me too.

833
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 1: Otherwise, the urgency you spoke about, I feel that. I'm like,

834
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: I have to do it right now. I have to

835
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: stop everything I'm doing and I need to find the

836
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: solution for that person now. And it's stabilitating. It's like

837
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: you just you can't think of anything else. You suddenly

838
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: feel your heart go into your gut and you're like,

839
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: I have to I have to fix this.

840
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 2: But it's the child within you that feels that way,

841
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 2: and it's the same for me. And so we have

842
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 2: to tend to those little kids and say hey, hey, hey,

843
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: everyone's okay. Yeah, it's all going to be okay. This

844
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: is just a moment in time. This person is not fragile.

845
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: We are not fragile, right, They're going to be okay.

846
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 2: And when you stop the auto advice giving and the

847
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 2: auto yes and all the automatic behaviors, it requires what

848
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,800
Speaker 2: you already have. I know you have a meditation practice.

849
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: It's like this creates more internal space, and then think

850
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: about the people who do you auto advice give the most,

851
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: because certain people will trigger for sure these hfc's behaviors

852
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 2: more than other people for whatever reason and so and

853
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 2: each of us has a different story as to why

854
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: that is. But when you start thinking about them, then

855
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: make a plan and say, the next time Betty, if

856
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 2: she's someone who's very provoking for you, comes to me,

857
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to say, what do you think you should do?

858
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 1: Without anger and without yes, without that feeling of resentment

859
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: for not being able to help either and not wanting

860
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: to help.

861
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,840
Speaker 2: But you're going to have to process those feelings right

862
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 2: recorded the book, one of the whole chapters is about

863
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: emotional self regulation and having a much deeper intimate relationship

864
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: with our own emotions. Right Because when you're in HFC,

865
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 2: as soon as you feel uncomfortable, you get into action. Yep,

866
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: you do something. So we are like here's our feelings,

867
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 2: and we're like, bye, you, I don't like you. So

868
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: I'm going to go make a phone call. I'm going

869
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 2: to go to Amazon and buy that book and send

870
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,760
Speaker 2: it to them. I'm going to get into fix it mode.

871
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: Grief does that to me, Fear does that to me,

872
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: if my grandma's done, well, I'm calling someone to go

873
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: give her some vitamin shots as soon as I possibly

874
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: can I can.

875
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, definitely. And here's the thing. You know this,

876
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: some of these things, this doesn't mean you're never going

877
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 2: to give to the people you love. You're never going

878
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: to say, hey, I have a thought. But what it

879
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: will do is it will change the paradigm in your mind.

880
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: We have to get out of automatic knee jerk reactions,

881
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 2: because that's what they are.

882
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost not mindful. It isn't it's not mindful.

883
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: It's not thoughtful. It's reactive.

884
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 2: That's it. And even if you think it's loving, if

885
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 2: it's a reaction, it's controlling. It's compulsive, and that is different.

886
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: And you may choose the same thing. But once you

887
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: have a mindful thought about it, you go, Okay, this

888
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: is what the person is bringing it to me. You

889
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: may say, you know, but I really do want to

890
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 2: tell them about my client who had the same ailment

891
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 2: and what they did to help them. I'm going to

892
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 2: ask them if they're open to getting feedback. So, hey,

893
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: are you open? I actually had a client with the

894
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: same thing that you had, and she did something and

895
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: maybe it'd be helpful to you or you hope it

896
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 2: open to hearing it, And some people will say, well,

897
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 2: that sounds so weird. You're going to ask the people

898
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: in your life if they're open to hearing it. Yeah,

899
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,799
Speaker 2: you are, because that's called having respect for their sovereignty.

900
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 1: I loved what you said about triggers because now that

901
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: I think about it, a lot of the things that

902
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: trigger me and other people are things that I think

903
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: I've worked on in myself, and when they're doing it,

904
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 1: it triggers me because I'm like, no, but I know

905
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: you can get out of it.

906
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

907
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: No, but I know you can be better than this.

908
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: But I know that you have the you have the

909
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: capacity and ability to be more, to do more. And

910
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 1: I think it comes from this fhere of like of

911
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: what I have been in the past, and that triggers me.

912
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 1: To not have anybody else feel that way, ye, to

913
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 1: not feel like you're not worth anything, to not feel

914
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,320
Speaker 1: like you don't have something to give. I'm like, but

915
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: you do. But I had to go through the thick

916
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 1: of it to remember that for myself.

917
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: Yes, And what you're describing as projection, yes, So it's

918
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 2: painful like it's a sore spot for you, So we

919
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: project that that's how they feel. May or they may not,

920
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: but either way, it doesn't give us the right to

921
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 2: trample on their boundaries. And it's so much more loving

922
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 2: to say what would help? Is there anything I could do?

923
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? And I believe you can do it yourself.

924
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: Yes, by by simply not giving advice, You're like, I'm

925
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: here because literally, loving wise, the flex is I will

926
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: be with you in the fox hole and not fix you.

927
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: That is the real flex is I love you enough

928
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: to just be here. And it's listen, I'm in recovery

929
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: for years, and it's still hard, especially with people like

930
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: my husband I'm very close to. It's so hard to

931
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 2: not just say I am I am witnessing you with

932
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 2: so much compassion, so I say that like I hear you, babe.

933
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 2: It sounds hard and I want to tell them what

934
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 2: to do so bad, but I don't because he and listen,

935
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: you can't be perfect to mean, we spend tons of

936
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: time together. Obviously sometimes I do, but it's funny. The

937
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: last time I was in LA we have a puppy

938
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: and we lit all these things going on at the house.

939
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: We like live on this little farm, and so I

940
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 2: was texting him all these things, being like, do you

941
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: know that Charlie needs to get her flee thing? And

942
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just texting from Afar And he was like, babe,

943
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 2: I got it. And I was like, all right, I'm

944
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 2: being super controlling, right and I just said up a video.

945
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm really sorry, am I being an HFC.

946
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: He was like, you are, and I love you, but

947
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: have faith. I got it. Keep in mind I met

948
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 2: this guy. He was widowed and divorced and had three

949
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 2: teenage sons and had a super successful career as an artists.

950
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think he was fine for the

951
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,359
Speaker 2: whole forty years he lived without me. I'm like, oh,

952
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 2: he really needs me to figure out when the lawnmowers

953
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,320
Speaker 2: are coming. He's like, yeah, he texted me, babe, I

954
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: got it. But anyway, it's.

955
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: Also the best distraction from your own course. You know,

956
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 1: this wis fraction for your own self, is busying yourself

957
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: in somebody else's business, whether they asked you for it

958
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: or not. And that's also what I find I do

959
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: sometimes if I find my emotions are overwhelming, or if

960
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: i'm really worried about my grandma and everything that's happening

961
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: with her. Let's say when she was unwell, I would

962
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: find somebody else that I could because I can't fix

963
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: what's happening there. Like, okay, she's in treatment right now,

964
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: she's doing there's nothing I can do there. Okay, But

965
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: who else can I find to fix? Because I can't

966
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: fix you right now? That's out of my reach. That

967
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: God's going to have to handle because I can't treat you.

968
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: But that friend over there looks like she needs help.

969
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 2: She could be doing so much better.

970
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: Let me just do that so I don't have to

971
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: sit in this emotion of grief and like worry, because

972
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: fixing you at least makes me feel a bit better

973
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: in another way.

974
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's so true, and it's actually such

975
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:53,840
Speaker 2: a good point. I'm glad that you brought it up

976
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: about how it's the perfect way to avoid our own stuff.

977
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: And here's the thing. Also, nobody listen. Nobody's checking on you,

978
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 2: nobody's checking on me. No one's like, she I hope

979
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 2: Harry is okay. They're like, obviously she's okay, She's always okay, She's.

980
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: I've created that.

981
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, we have, we all have. It is

982
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: the illusion, and so part of the process of getting

983
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: into recovery is allowing people to know the truth when

984
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: we're not okay, like asking for help, Allowing not just

985
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: Jay right, allowing other people, because it's one thing like

986
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: when you're us, you have one designated person where you're like, nay, you,

987
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 2: I trust, I know you're doing it out of love.

988
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: But they would have to be Jay's head over hills

989
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 2: for you, my husband's head over heels for me. It's

990
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: like it would have to be to such an extreme

991
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 2: that I was so positive he was never going to

992
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: screw me over, do you know what I mean? And

993
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: that took a long time.

994
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: And honestly, even when I'm in moments of like feeling

995
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: that way, it takes a lot for me to even

996
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: show up and show that I am in pain to him,

997
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: even though he sees me every single day. Same I'd

998
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: have to, like he'd have to really see that I'm

999
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: being a bit off character. I mean, are you okay? Yes?

1000
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 1: Are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, I'm just stressed out

1001
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 1: by something. I'm just anxious about something. And then eventually

1002
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 1: and he's patient enough to keep asking I'm like, I'm

1003
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: just really worried about this person, or I'm just really

1004
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: struggling with this, and I'll have a breakdown once in

1005
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: a well often and when it gets too much. But

1006
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: I really have to practice being vulnerable on a regular basis,

1007
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,959
Speaker 1: because I think I've gotten so used to other people

1008
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: being vulnerable to me that when people are messaging me

1009
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:29,879
Speaker 1: telling me about their things, I'm like, oh, no, I'm fine,

1010
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm doing great, yep. And I'm like, oh, but it's

1011
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: just because I process it by myself. Like that's what

1012
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: I always tell myself. I'm good at processing things by myself,

1013
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: so I actually don't need to tell anybody.

1014
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: This is where that hyperindependence comes in, though, where we

1015
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 2: don't want to be a burden. Yeah. And when I

1016
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 2: was actively HFC, I really didn't want to owe anybody anything. Right,

1017
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: I'm happy to do for you. You doing for me,

1018
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: not so much. I'm not that interested in that. And

1019
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 2: my mother in the beginning with my relationship with Vick,

1020
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 2: actually it said to me, because vic would he would

1021
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: want to drive from New Jersey to pick me up

1022
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: for Manhattan, just to drive me back to New Jersey,

1023
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, I could just go to pen

1024
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 2: station and take the train. It's so much faster. And

1025
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 2: my mother was like her, why are you depriving him

1026
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: the joy that he gets out of doing love it?

1027
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 2: He wants to come scoop you up. Let him come

1028
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 2: in and.

1029
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 1: Get you reciprocation. And that's what I've realized. I've stopped this.

1030
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: The reciprocal action of someone being able to actually give

1031
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: me love is in them being able to do something

1032
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: for me, and I block it. I'm like, no, actually

1033
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: I don't need your help. Okay, so you don't want

1034
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: me to love you. No, I actually don't want you

1035
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: to pick me up. I don't want you to help

1036
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: me on this situation. But it's blocking all these people

1037
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 1: from having a more deeper, meaningful relationship with me, because

1038
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: that is what human interaction in love is, right, Like,

1039
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: it's reciprocal. It's you, and it doesn't have to be

1040
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: helping in that way. But you do something for me

1041
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: out of love, and I'll do something. And the actual

1042
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: receiving of the gift is just as important as the

1043
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 1: giving of the gift.

1044
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: Yes, my mother said, look at it like this, terr.

1045
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 2: See all of those nice things as him handing you

1046
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 2: a blue Tiffany's box when you slam that on the

1047
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: ground and stomp on it, because that's what you're doing

1048
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: when you say no. And I was like, I don't

1049
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 2: like that image at all, mom, but she was like,

1050
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 2: but I think it's true, and it really helped me

1051
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: be able to be a better receiver. If people want

1052
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 2: to get into recovery a a crisis can throw you

1053
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 2: back into being an active HFC. So just know that

1054
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 2: someone being sick can just make you go off the

1055
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: rails and feel like you want to control everything. So

1056
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: it's okay. You can have a little relapse and you

1057
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: can come back. But the things we have to get

1058
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 2: used to is Serrol Richardson has this great book called

1059
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 2: let Me Disappoint You, So we need to realize that

1060
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: sometimes we have to disappoint others to not abandon ourselves.

1061
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 2: And any relationship that is built on your self abandonment

1062
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: is not a healthy relationship. And most people who really

1063
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: love us don't want that we're doing it voluntarily, So

1064
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 2: realize it's okay. And even if your friend wants you

1065
00:51:58,200 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: to do something but you have an important thing the

1066
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: next and you can't go, it's okay that she's disappointed.

1067
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 2: She can love you and be disappointed. You can love

1068
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 2: her and be disappointed, like it's all right. And the

1069
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: other thing is that we really have to allow, as

1070
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: you were saying, we have to surrender to what is

1071
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: Maybe your friend isn't ready to change. Breathe in that

1072
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 2: expansion of just surrendering to what is true. You think

1073
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 2: about when you're an active HFC, it's like you're swimming

1074
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 2: upstream and like you're just you're laboring so hard, you're

1075
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 2: looking there's that tree, and then you're like that same tree,

1076
00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,080
Speaker 2: like how am I not any further up this river?

1077
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:38,919
Speaker 2: And when you're in recovery, it's like you flip over

1078
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 2: and float and now you can see right. It's like

1079
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 2: you're going with the flow. You're allowing the chips to

1080
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,320
Speaker 2: fall where they may. When they're not your chips, people

1081
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 2: feel so much less judged and controlled by you, So

1082
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,879
Speaker 2: your relationships get better. But you have so much more

1083
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 2: bandwidth when you're not bleeding it left and right, because

1084
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: what it ends up happening really is that we have

1085
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 2: a glass ceiling of our own making. When we're actively HFC,

1086
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 2: your relationships will only be so deep and you will

1087
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 2: only be so successful because you're bleeding bandwidth everywhere.

1088
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: I was thinking about how when I imagine when you're

1089
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: in recovery, one thing I would have to figure out

1090
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: is knowing what my value is in someone's life beyond it?

1091
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Like how do you figure out?

1092
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 1: Because if your value that you've put on yourself in

1093
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: their life or in that relationship is I am useful

1094
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 1: because I do this, this, and this. It's creating almost

1095
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: a brand new relationship of beyond me. Like if ninety

1096
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: percent of my conversations are me helping you, what do

1097
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 1: we talk about now? Like, how do I create a

1098
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: new method of communication? How do I find a new

1099
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: value in our relationship beyond me helping you?

1100
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it is you have to

1101
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: question your own relationship to worth value exactly, and you

1102
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:06,160
Speaker 2: really have to grasp that by virtue of being alive,

1103
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 2: you are worthy. You are valuable. Look at babies, look

1104
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: at puppies. We don't look at babies, and we're like,

1105
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 2: so are you going to make me dinner?

1106
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 1: Yeah? Right?

1107
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 2: We just love you. We just love the shit out

1108
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: of you. You just exist. You don't do anything. You

1109
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,799
Speaker 2: just eat and poop and fart. And we just can't

1110
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 2: get enough love. You are that baby, I am that baby,

1111
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 2: and so the worthiness is already in there. We learn

1112
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 2: somehow in life that we needed to be utilitarian to

1113
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: be a value. But now we're sort of reclaiming our birthright,

1114
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: which is our inherent worth. So there's that. And then

1115
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 2: if ninety percent of your conversation is helping, now at

1116
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: least half of that is going to be you getting

1117
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 2: to know the people that you love, asking expansive questions,

1118
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,480
Speaker 2: allowing there to be silence, letting people here's the thing.

1119
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 2: People have a right to succeed and fail. People have

1120
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: the right to thrive and to flail, to not know,

1121
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: to be like I'm a hot mess. And then instead

1122
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: of saying but you can change it, or but it

1123
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:18,320
Speaker 2: won't always be like this, or it could be worse

1124
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 2: like hfc's can be the most annoying silver lining detectives

1125
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 2: on the planet.

1126
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 1: The delusional optimistde it's like so annoying.

1127
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,359
Speaker 2: Right when you're on the receiving end, you're like shut

1128
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 2: And also, how about let me be as miserable as

1129
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: I am right now? Maybe I just need you to

1130
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 2: have compassion for the pain that I'm in like with Thick,

1131
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: he barely ever does it anymore. But if he ever

1132
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 2: tries to fix I'm like, babe, do you actually think

1133
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 2: I'm not going to figure this out? Of course, look

1134
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: at my life. Of course I am right now though

1135
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 2: I'm hurt. I need you to be with me and

1136
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 2: my hurt and him just saying all right, honey, what

1137
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,279
Speaker 2: can I do? It's amazing. Just be with me. Let's

1138
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:03,880
Speaker 2: go for a ride, or just allow me to be

1139
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 2: hurt and don't try to fix it. But we can

1140
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 2: tell the people in our lives how to love us

1141
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 2: by saying, hey, I want to talk about this, but

1142
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 2: I'm actually not looking for any input. I don't need

1143
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: any solutions. What I would love if you could just

1144
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 2: be a compassionate ear. It really helps me to know

1145
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 2: that you know I'm in pain. I don't know why,

1146
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: but it just makes me feel better to Yes, we're

1147
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:32,359
Speaker 2: together and I'm in pain, and you're witnessing me truthfully, authentically,

1148
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 2: and you love me anyway.

1149
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: I think that would also help you to process it

1150
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: faster and easier, because as soon as you acknowledge it,

1151
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: that's number one, then you share it with someone else,

1152
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: You've released it from your body in some way, you've

1153
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: released it from your mind in some way. I always say,

1154
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: if you don't feel like talking to someone, put pen

1155
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: to paper and at least you've got It's like the

1156
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,440
Speaker 1: more and more you say it, the more you're processing it,

1157
00:56:53,680 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: the more you're processing it, the more it's releasing from you.

1158
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,600
Speaker 1: And so if you can't talk to someone, put it

1159
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,160
Speaker 1: onto paper. But if you can talk to someone, it's

1160
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: that idea of letting it go. Every layer is being

1161
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,839
Speaker 1: shed the more that you think about it, the more

1162
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:09,240
Speaker 1: you process it. And I feel like that would probably

1163
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: help get rid of those feelings a lot faster.

1164
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: Yes, And what you resist persists. So when we're in

1165
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 2: denial and when someone else is trying to fix what's

1166
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 2: wrong with us, right, it's so painful, we're holding on

1167
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: like a dog with a bone to the pain because

1168
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,040
Speaker 2: I need you to see that I'm in pain, like

1169
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: I need that from the people in my life. Don't

1170
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 2: treat me like a problem to fix because it's so

1171
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: painful for me. You to want me to be in

1172
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 2: a neat little bowl like I was doing to my

1173
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: sister instead of just dealing with the fact that she

1174
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 2: wasn't ready. And it was a ship show of a situation,

1175
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 2: but it wasn't my shit show.

1176
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've gotten used to telling my before. I used

1177
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: to be so worried about telling my mum when I

1178
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: was upset because I thought it would really worry her

1179
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: and she would get very affected by it. And then

1180
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: I realized it was just, you know, really stopping a

1181
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 1: big part of our relationship where I can say, Mom,

1182
00:58:05,200 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to cry right now, and I'm going to

1183
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: cry a lot, and I just need you to know

1184
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: that you can't do anything about it, but I'm feeling

1185
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: this way. You may not understand it, but I need

1186
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: you to not worry because I'm going to be fine.

1187
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: And so we really had to get into this routine

1188
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: of her not frantically worrying because I'm crying. I'm a cryer.

1189
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: I need you to know that too. You don't know

1190
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: this because you've not seen me cry a lot, but

1191
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 1: I cry a lot, and I need you to know

1192
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: that that is my release. So if I come to

1193
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: you and I'm crying, it may be really serious or

1194
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: it may not be serious at all, but I just

1195
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: need you to see me cry, and I need you

1196
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: to tell me. That's literally all I need right now.

1197
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: Yes, And when we can tell people what we need,

1198
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: that's it. It's so amazing when they can give it

1199
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 2: to us, because that makes you feel loved.

1200
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: To be seen, yes, to be seen and not fixed,

1201
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: to be seen like you would.

1202
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 2: Be amazing if you would just get it together. It

1203
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: doesn't feel good.

1204
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: No, it really doesn't. You talk about people pleasing in

1205
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: the book as well, And I need to ask you

1206
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: a question. Is it actually possible for a human to

1207
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: actually not care if someone doesn't like them?

1208
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I have not cracked the code on that

1209
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: personal speaks to know. I'm gonna say probably not. Now,

1210
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 2: there is a way of being extremely discerning about whose

1211
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,439
Speaker 2: opinion you give a shit about. So I always tell

1212
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 2: people you want to create what I call a VIP

1213
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 2: section in your life. So these are people who are

1214
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 2: emotionally trustworthy. These are people where there is mutuality in

1215
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: your relationships and that you know are like rooting for you. Right,

1216
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean every person in your family has

1217
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 2: to be in the VIP section, right. These are people

1218
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 2: we really have to vet them from an emotional standpoint.

1219
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 2: And so I care what those people think. Yes I do,

1220
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 2: I do, but not all of them and not about everything.

1221
00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 2: So even with I love my mother, I care what

1222
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 2: she thinks. I'm not taking career from my mother obviously,

1223
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: yeah right, like I'm not because that wouldn't be the

1224
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 2: person I would do it with, because that wouldn't make

1225
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,520
Speaker 2: any sense. But I care that she thinks I'm a kind,

1226
01:00:10,760 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: decent human because that is who she raised me to be,

1227
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 2: and those are her values and my values as well.

1228
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 2: So she's always like, it makes me so proud everyone

1229
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:19,680
Speaker 2: tells me how nice you guys are, because I have

1230
01:00:19,720 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 2: three older sisters, and that's her biggest compliment is that

1231
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 2: we're kind and considerate and we help those who are

1232
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: less fortunate. That that was the way that I was raised. Right,

1233
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 2: She doesn't care about a best selling book. She wants

1234
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 2: to know who did I help lately? You know what

1235
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:36,360
Speaker 2: I mean?

1236
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 1: And what do you think is the mindset behind someone

1237
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: who because I've struggled with this a lot, especially since

1238
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: I've you know, goten an online platform and had a

1239
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: wider amount of people seeing me on a daily basis,

1240
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: and you know, I think lots of people struggle with

1241
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: this online. How can one decide when you're thinking about

1242
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: what someone thinks about you too much, Like, at what

1243
01:00:57,280 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: point do you I know you said it's about the

1244
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: people who while within your vicinity that you are emotionally

1245
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: invested with. But how can you stop worrying or what

1246
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 1: is the mindset behind caring so much about what people

1247
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: that you don't even know think about you? Well?

1248
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 2: I think that Listen, all of us who are influencers

1249
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 2: in different fields have to deal with it. This is

1250
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 2: reality because it's part of our business model, right. It's like,

1251
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 2: so it isn't like Instagram isn't just fun. It's like

1252
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 2: what we're doing because this is where our clients are,

1253
01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 2: This is where the people who are buying books are,

1254
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 2: This is where you know and their fans, I mean

1255
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: they actually are. So I think that you have to

1256
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: be clear. I am very clear in my comment section

1257
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:41,440
Speaker 2: that if there are any like real pot stirs, any

1258
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 2: people who are just looking to you know, what is it.

1259
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 2: There's this woman who was on the who was on

1260
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 2: Glennon Doyle Show, and she forgot her name, but she

1261
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: wrote a book and she talks about entrepreneurs of conflict,

1262
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:56,080
Speaker 2: like people who are just looking to mix it up.

1263
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:58,560
Speaker 2: They're just bored. They're just saying provocative shit just to

1264
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 2: be provocative, I will. If your heart isn't in the

1265
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 2: right place, you are blocked and kicked out of my

1266
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 2: community immediately. Now people can disagree with me, I have

1267
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 2: no problem with that as long as it's respectful. The

1268
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: moment people are bringing in any kind of disrespect, you're out.

1269
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: And I don't owe you any explanation you don't want

1270
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 2: because this shit is free. Yes, are you paying me

1271
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 2: to watch me on Instagram? You are not, And I'm

1272
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 2: giving I mean, I have six hundred and fifty videos

1273
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 2: on YouTube that are free. If somebody had no money,

1274
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 2: you could literally have mental health by going to my

1275
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:33,439
Speaker 2: YouTube channel. Because I wanted to even the playing field

1276
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:35,160
Speaker 2: that was like, it shouldn't just be people with money

1277
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 2: can have therapy that doesn't seem correct. So I'm always

1278
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 2: putting out like the highest quality free stuff that I

1279
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: possibly can because I want everyone to be able to

1280
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,560
Speaker 2: do it. And even there, my team knows, and everyone knows.

1281
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 2: I've got rules of engagement everywhere where we're not giving

1282
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,320
Speaker 2: each other advice. I'm the only therapist here, yes, And

1283
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,320
Speaker 2: what's giving advice? It's just me. It's that one way

1284
01:02:56,360 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 2: stream right now that is correct. This is not a democracy.

1285
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 2: This is a benevolent dictatorship, and I'm a dictator.

1286
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that when I reflect on

1287
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: why I have cared so much in the past, I

1288
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: really think one, obviously, there's a sense of really being

1289
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: in a state where you have more self worth. But

1290
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,760
Speaker 1: also I think it's when you're speaking from a point

1291
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 1: of authenticity. I know when I have felt most alignment,

1292
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,480
Speaker 1: when I felt like my words are matching my thoughts

1293
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: and my actions and everything feels like it's in flow

1294
01:03:30,480 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: and I'm not being another person online, I'm just being myself.

1295
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 1: That is when I care much less about what other

1296
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 1: people are saying. But as soon as and so really

1297
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 1: I see it more as a reflection of how my

1298
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: internal state is to how much I am taking on

1299
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: someone else's negative view of me. Because as soon as

1300
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 1: I'm showing up inauthentically when someone else tells me I am,

1301
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, that doesn't sound nice. Why are people

1302
01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: saying that about me? How can they say that about me?

1303
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: And then I realize, actually, even just within this conversation,

1304
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: that a lot of it comes from when I feel

1305
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:07,080
Speaker 1: like I'm at my best and I'm speaking words that

1306
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: I believe and I'm sharing things that mean so much

1307
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, I don't look at how many comments

1308
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: there are. I don't look at how many likes that

1309
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: I do not care. I've said this. I've put this

1310
01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: out into the world because I feel it and I

1311
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 1: want to share it, which is a super healthy way

1312
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: to do it.

1313
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 2: Yes, right, Because it's the same thing with when you're

1314
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 2: if you're telling someone your boundary, let's say, and they

1315
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 2: don't like it. Yeah, the healing is in the asserting

1316
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 2: of self. Your healing is in the asking for what

1317
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 2: you want, even if the person can't give it to you. Yes,

1318
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 2: And so that's exactly what you're saying. Like, if I'm

1319
01:04:40,520 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: putting out what I want and people, now, it's different.

1320
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,080
Speaker 2: If I say something I make a mistake publicly, a

1321
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 2: loss of people who are up in arms because I

1322
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:50,680
Speaker 2: said something that was insensitive, that's different. Right, I'll handle that.

1323
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 2: I will apologize for that if I believe that I

1324
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 2: did it or whatever the thing is. But there's something

1325
01:04:55,120 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 2: about having all these eyes on us as influencers, and

1326
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 2: I you know, it's not even like I'm not even

1327
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 2: that influential, but more and more and more as it grows,

1328
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 2: and I think that we have to be solid internally

1329
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 2: because fame itself. You know, I used to be a

1330
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 2: talent agent before I became a therapist, and so I,

1331
01:05:15,320 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: you know, used to represent supermodels and celebrities. That was

1332
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: what my sort of niche was, and so I was

1333
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 2: always fascinated by the psychology of fame, what happens to

1334
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 2: people when they become famous. Then it became a psychotherapist,

1335
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 2: so then I it just I naturally just started having

1336
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 2: clients who are very highly visible. Just made sense, and

1337
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 2: it's unbelievable, Like what a head trip it can be

1338
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 2: to have hundreds of millions of eyes on you, and

1339
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 2: how self conscious it can make you. And so I've

1340
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 2: got lots of rules and regulations from my clients, so

1341
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 2: like not being you really have to have that fifteen

1342
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 2: minute timer no longer than that every day ten minutes

1343
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:58,680
Speaker 2: is even better. Wow, of just keeping it real. You

1344
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:01,400
Speaker 2: can't get in there. They cannot climb into those kind

1345
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 2: of sections.

1346
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I agree, And I think that the more

1347
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:07,960
Speaker 1: you just end up showing up as you and I

1348
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: think about that even when it comes to physically showing

1349
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: up like whenever I of course, unless you're like a

1350
01:06:13,080 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: beauty influencer doing makeup stuff. But for me, what really

1351
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:20,040
Speaker 1: helps is if I show up and I'm just no filter,

1352
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,919
Speaker 1: putting no makeup, speaking certain words that I know means

1353
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: something to me, then I'm so much less anxious when

1354
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,439
Speaker 1: I'm going into the public world where I'm actually meeting people,

1355
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 1: Like I always used to think when I would meet people,

1356
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: they would feel like they meet a different version of me,

1357
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 1: because I'm actually quite an introvert. When I meet people

1358
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: for the first time, I'm really comfortable behind the screen.

1359
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:42,160
Speaker 1: I'm really comfortable with my core friends and the people.

1360
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: But if I'm in larger environments, you might get a

1361
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: shyer version of me that they're not expecting. And so

1362
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,680
Speaker 1: sometimes just being able to show up in the same

1363
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 1: way online as you would as to a person when

1364
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: you meet them allows it to be less discrepancy. I

1365
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:59,439
Speaker 1: feel like there's just this duality that you end up having, yeah,

1366
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: that keeps fighting one another when you show up as

1367
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: something else, and then you'll you end up having to

1368
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: keep up with all these different versions of yourself, and

1369
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 1: it's so draining.

1370
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:09,480
Speaker 2: It's so true. When I first started being public with

1371
01:07:09,560 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 2: this in two thousand and nine or whatever.

1372
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:11,680
Speaker 1: It was.

1373
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 2: One of my friends, Danielleporte, was like, you know, I

1374
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 2: would do my videos and be all like therapy life

1375
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:19,520
Speaker 2: and I'd be all like pearls and shit and be

1376
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 2: like and Jerrychole or whatever I was doing. And she

1377
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 2: was like, where's my Jersey friend. Why don't you curse

1378
01:07:26,800 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 2: in your videos? Terror? Why are you not being funny?

1379
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 2: You're so funny? Yeah, And I'm like, well, because I'm

1380
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,600
Speaker 2: a therapistist, I think this is what people are expecting.

1381
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 2: She's like, dude, don't don't even go down this road.

1382
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 2: And actually she was the first person whoever really encouraged me.

1383
01:07:42,160 --> 01:07:45,760
Speaker 1: She was like, to just be yourself when you walked

1384
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,200
Speaker 1: in the door today, I have to say this. You know,

1385
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,000
Speaker 1: when you think of what a psychotherapist is or like

1386
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: someone who's in that field, you do think of someone

1387
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 1: who's like serious, and you know, you walked in and

1388
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 1: my team was like, oh my gosh, she walked in

1389
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: and she cursed when she walked in. We love her

1390
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: energy like she is. And it's true, like as soon

1391
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: as you walked in the door, I felt who you were.

1392
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 1: You sat down here and you are who you are,

1393
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: and it creates less discrepancy for you, but also for

1394
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 1: the person that's experiencing you. It is literally the same

1395
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 1: person that walked in the door, that sat on this

1396
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,759
Speaker 1: chair and is speaking in the mic. So I appreciate

1397
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:19,439
Speaker 1: you doing that so much. It was really great to

1398
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 1: experience that from the moment I met.

1399
01:08:20,840 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 2: You right on, and hopefully that lets other people in

1400
01:08:24,520 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 2: my vicinity. I hope. I mean, that's not why I

1401
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:27,360
Speaker 2: did it, want to be themselves.

1402
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,360
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely. There was one other part that you said

1403
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: in your book, which I really loved. You said, unhealed

1404
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:35,960
Speaker 1: shame can show up in our lives as perfectionism. Could

1405
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: you explain that a little bit, because yeah, I think

1406
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:39,719
Speaker 1: that would really useful.

1407
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, think about what perfectionism is. It's like we're working

1408
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 2: so hard to be above reproach so no one can

1409
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 2: tell us we did it wrong, and then we become it.

1410
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 2: So like we've internalized the shamers, whoever, whoever those were

1411
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,519
Speaker 2: in our lives because most of us, you know, hate

1412
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 2: to go back to the scene of the crime, but

1413
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:58,960
Speaker 2: we need to because most of us as family of

1414
01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 2: origin stuff, So we take it on ourselves to be like,

1415
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 2: I'm going to do everything so right that no one

1416
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:09,560
Speaker 2: will be able to say anything about me. So I

1417
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:14,840
Speaker 2: will keep myself safe by being perfect. And the thing is,

1418
01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:18,719
Speaker 2: obviously there is no perfection, and life is messy as hell. Yeah,

1419
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 2: love is messy. Success is messy, right. Success includes failure, which,

1420
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,519
Speaker 2: if you're a perfectionist, is like death where you can't

1421
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 2: even deal. And a lot of times perfectionists will not

1422
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 2: do things outside of their comfort zone if they're not

1423
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:37,439
Speaker 2: masterful at it. So your life gets small if you're

1424
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 2: not good at it. And the thing is adventures and

1425
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 2: learning new skills and learning a new language, all the

1426
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 2: things that make life juicy and amazing. It's like you

1427
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:49,759
Speaker 2: don't do them because you're not good at them.

1428
01:09:50,080 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 1: Because you have to become a beginner again, and that's

1429
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,680
Speaker 1: too scary. Yes, what if you fail and people see it?

1430
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,639
Speaker 2: Yes, and then that activates that shame.

1431
01:09:57,880 --> 01:09:59,559
Speaker 1: It became such a cage. I feel like I went

1432
01:09:59,600 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 1: through that, but I think mine was more from a

1433
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: state of feeling like I wasn't good at anything, and

1434
01:10:03,800 --> 01:10:05,560
Speaker 1: then when I found something I was good at and

1435
01:10:05,640 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 1: people were like, oh, you're actually really good at this,

1436
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: and this is great what you're doing, and it makes

1437
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,759
Speaker 1: sense for you to then go back to doing something

1438
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 1: else that made me think I could fail at this. Yes,

1439
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,519
Speaker 1: that was scary to me. Yes, but then I realized

1440
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 1: exactly what you said. I was in a little cage

1441
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 1: that I'd created for myself. But I wanted to say

1442
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: yes to things, and I wanted to try new things out,

1443
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:27,280
Speaker 1: and I wanted that excitement in my life of trying

1444
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: something new and failing and experiencing and getting things wrong.

1445
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: But it was literally like I'd built this little cage

1446
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,160
Speaker 1: around me and like, no, this is your safe zone.

1447
01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 1: This is what you're good at.

1448
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: Stick to that.

1449
01:10:38,720 --> 01:10:40,599
Speaker 1: And then as soon as I started saying yes to things,

1450
01:10:40,640 --> 01:10:42,680
Speaker 1: and I've continued to say yes to things that I

1451
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 1: actually may not have been good at and I have

1452
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 1: failed at and they have been really terrible, but some

1453
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:49,920
Speaker 1: of them have been amazing. Yes, and some of those

1454
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 1: things have I've found out so much about myself through

1455
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 1: doing them, and I'd be so sad if I hadn't

1456
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: taken the opportunity to learn that about myself.

1457
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:00,880
Speaker 2: It's so enlivening to be in a learning curve, right.

1458
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 2: Think about what that feels like when you start to

1459
01:11:02,840 --> 01:11:06,000
Speaker 2: get good at something. It's so it's so exciting. What

1460
01:11:06,200 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 2: is the cost, right of We've already talked about relationships.

1461
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:14,040
Speaker 2: We understand the cost to us is exhaustion, TMJ, autoimmune disorders, insomnia.

1462
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 2: There's so many things that I've seen in my practice

1463
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 2: over the many years, cancer MS. I mean, there's just

1464
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:23,720
Speaker 2: this state of hypervigilance that most HFCs are in is

1465
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:25,840
Speaker 2: really bad for your nervous system. If there's a whole

1466
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:29,599
Speaker 2: entire chapter on nervous system stuff. What we're doing when

1467
01:11:29,680 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 2: we are always thinking about what this person should do

1468
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:34,560
Speaker 2: and going into the future and being like, is this

1469
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:39,520
Speaker 2: you know? Because anticipatory planning is another behavior that hfc's

1470
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 2: will employ, which is making sure if you're going to

1471
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: be with someone who's difficult, you make sure you think

1472
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,760
Speaker 2: of everything that could go wrong. You know, Uncle Bob

1473
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 2: likes this kind of booze and he's a pain, and

1474
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 2: as I'm going to make sure I have that kind

1475
01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:50,880
Speaker 2: of booze and he has like gymis, so I won't

1476
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 2: put them together, and I'll like, I'm going to twist

1477
01:11:53,400 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 2: myself up in a pretzel and let myself on fire

1478
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:57,040
Speaker 2: so all these people can be warm.

1479
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 1: Basically planning on family holiday, Yeah, totally.

1480
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:03,599
Speaker 2: Oh my god, God, one hundred percent, and it's absolutely exhausting.

1481
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:06,680
Speaker 2: But what happens is we end up living what I

1482
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 2: call life light lite because you're so much here that

1483
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 2: life ends up being only half as like, deep and

1484
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 2: juicy and delicious as it should be. Because we're so

1485
01:12:21,320 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 2: busy trying to control and word off bad things from

1486
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 2: happening and making sure no one else is in pain,

1487
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 2: that we're really sacrificing the depth of the life that

1488
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 2: we're meant to live.

1489
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: Doctor Gavimarte says this, and he said, when you're living

1490
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 1: in someone else's mind, you're not living your life. When

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01:12:41,520 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 1: you're constantly in someone else's mind worrying about what they're

1492
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:47,639
Speaker 1: thinking about you, Well, they're thinking about you're not present

1493
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 1: in your own life, correct, And that really hit me.

1494
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:52,519
Speaker 1: I was like, that's so true. I'm not observing my life.

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01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 1: I'm not Actually, I may be physically present, but I'm

1496
01:12:55,360 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: not mentally present here. Only half of me is here

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01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 1: because I'm constantly living in someone else is mine. And

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01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 1: he says that even about the perception that someone has

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01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:05,120
Speaker 1: of you, if you're constantly thinking about how they're seeing it,

1500
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,479
Speaker 1: who even are you? Are you experiencing who you are. Right,

1501
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:11,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, thank you for hitting that, because that's a

1502
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: great point to make.

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01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 2: Thank you for this exhausting, all exhausting. We need to rest.

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01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. I always think about when I think

1505
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: about what rest I need. And I was so used

1506
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 1: to thinking rest is just okay, I need to wedge

1507
01:13:25,479 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 1: out from the TV, I need to sit, and I

1508
01:13:27,320 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 1: need to do nothing. And then I realized there's so

1509
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 1: many different types of rest. There's mental rest, physical rest,

1510
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: emotional rest, spiritual rest. What does that look like? Y

1511
01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:37,360
Speaker 1: And so sometimes I would have a full weekend of rest.

1512
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 1: What seems like rest, but my mind is still going yep.

1513
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:44,760
Speaker 1: So I had to distinguish between what type of rest

1514
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:47,719
Speaker 1: it was I needed. Is it social rest? But sometimes

1515
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,759
Speaker 1: all I need is no planning, no nothing, no keeping

1516
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:54,920
Speaker 1: to time, just being and allowing myself to physically be

1517
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 1: and mentally be present in whatever I am doing. And

1518
01:13:58,200 --> 01:13:59,360
Speaker 1: that for me felt like rest.

1519
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:01,840
Speaker 2: Oh, I love it. I think that people who are

1520
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,720
Speaker 2: listening and watching this, if you're wondering, how can you

1521
01:14:04,800 --> 01:14:06,800
Speaker 2: get out of this groove? Yeah, you feel like you're

1522
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 2: in this HFC groove. Before you agree to anything, I

1523
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 2: want you to ask yourself two questions. One can I

1524
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,400
Speaker 2: do I have the bandwidth to do this without becoming resentful?

1525
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 2: Two do I even want to do it? And if

1526
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 2: the answer is no, I want you to understand that

1527
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 2: that's a legitimate reason not to do something. And of

1528
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,960
Speaker 2: course we're in relationships with other people. Obviously we're going

1529
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:33,840
Speaker 2: to compromise in our relationships, but a lot of times

1530
01:14:33,920 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 2: we're just auto yesing it up to please other people

1531
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:43,479
Speaker 2: and it's really really exhausting. And if you want a

1532
01:14:43,560 --> 01:14:46,639
Speaker 2: little guide, I created something for you. Oh amazing Terry

1533
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:50,639
Speaker 2: Coole dot com forward slash HFC can't forget it. It's

1534
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 2: just an HFC toolkit that's useful to be Like, where

1535
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:55,599
Speaker 2: do I start?

1536
01:14:56,040 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: Help?

1537
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 2: This is where you start?

1538
01:14:57,720 --> 01:14:59,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. I think that the main thing that

1539
01:14:59,439 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 1: stuck out to me. I mean so many things, but

1540
01:15:02,200 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 1: the one thing is knowing that the way that you

1541
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,280
Speaker 1: can love someone the most is by not in putting

1542
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:11,400
Speaker 1: yourself into their life, like sometimes love looks like that.

1543
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's for me, as someone

1544
01:15:14,280 --> 01:15:17,479
Speaker 1: who definitely identifies as being HFC, is it's knowing that

1545
01:15:17,920 --> 01:15:22,360
Speaker 1: that that simply will stop me from inserting myself unnecessarily

1546
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:24,960
Speaker 1: into someone's life and feel satisfied and okay with it.

1547
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 2: Yes, and let let's let's be really specific and nuanced

1548
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 2: with the language that it's not inserting your opinion into

1549
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:36,920
Speaker 2: what they should do, which is different because you might

1550
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 2: you might say, hey, do you want to go for

1551
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,200
Speaker 2: a walk? I know you're not feeling great, so we

1552
01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:43,560
Speaker 2: can still be in their life. That's the part of

1553
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 2: being in the fox hole where you're like, maybe you

1554
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 2: want to go to a movie. We don't have to

1555
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 2: talk be with them even if they're not good company.

1556
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:55,759
Speaker 2: Let others be with us even when we're not good company.

1557
01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 2: For Francess, I won't be a good company. I was like,

1558
01:15:57,880 --> 01:15:59,760
Speaker 2: your job is not to entertain me as your friend.

1559
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:02,120
Speaker 2: I just want to be with you, and if you're

1560
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 2: feeling low, I'm happy to just be with you.

1561
01:16:06,080 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you so much for this. This was

1562
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:10,360
Speaker 1: honestly such an INCREDI I feel like I had a

1563
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:13,000
Speaker 1: little therapy session. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much.

1564
01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 1: But I really think it's going to help so many

1565
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: people to build deeper relationships, more meaningful moments with people,

1566
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 1: and have a good amount of reflection on their own actions.

1567
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,679
Speaker 1: And what they really mean to other people.

1568
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me things