WEBVTT - Gil Hanse - Part 1

0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:04.720
<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast.

0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Today I am joined by golf course architect Gil Hans.

0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.800
<v Speaker 1>This is another two part podcast. Part two will be

0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:18.439
<v Speaker 1>available on Tuesday night without further ado. Here's Gil Hans.

0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when

0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.119
<v Speaker 2>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:25.520
<v Speaker 3>And when I find my ball.

0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.120
<v Speaker 2>In a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg,

0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.240
<v Speaker 2>Frida Egg, Fridagg, Fridagg, bride egg, Lie.

0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.280
<v Speaker 3>I'm about ready to run off the golf course.

0:00:59.360 --> 0:01:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm wondering noted dead Head house music had a impact

0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:05.520
<v Speaker 1>on your career.

0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think. I mean, when you're in a machine,

0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.840
<v Speaker 2>you're basically focusing on what you're building, and I'm I've

0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.400
<v Speaker 2>always loved music of My first Dead show was at

0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:22.080
<v Speaker 2>Madison Square Garden in nineteen seventy nine. I was fifteen

0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:24.880
<v Speaker 2>years old, So it was one of those things you

0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:27.760
<v Speaker 2>know when you kind of get turned onto that scene

0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.520
<v Speaker 2>and that vibe and that music, and it just I've

0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.600
<v Speaker 2>always enjoyed it. I don't have a musical bone in

0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:35.720
<v Speaker 2>my body. I couldn't play an instrument or carry a

0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:37.680
<v Speaker 2>tune to save my life. But I just have always

0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:40.240
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed music, and I think that that sort of jam band.

0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:44.000
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I love Dave Matthews. I never got into Fish.

0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:46.160
<v Speaker 2>I think, you know, being a deadhead. It was just

0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.440
<v Speaker 2>that was sort of I don't know, you look at

0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:50.560
<v Speaker 2>it as a younger version of what we were going through.

0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.960
<v Speaker 2>So but I think that that improvisation and just that

0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.520
<v Speaker 2>kind of one guy riffing off the next guy and

0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.800
<v Speaker 2>another guy picks it up and they go and it's

0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:05.120
<v Speaker 2>just the music, the creativity, the just the sort of

0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:08.000
<v Speaker 2>how it all comes together when it's not scripted. I

0:02:08.320 --> 0:02:10.679
<v Speaker 2>really enjoy that. And I think that that's somewhat of

0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.399
<v Speaker 2>a metaphor for how we work. I mean a lot

0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.840
<v Speaker 2>all of our guys, we just spend time editing and

0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.040
<v Speaker 2>refining each other's work and trying to make things better.

0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.400
<v Speaker 2>And so there's a contribution that, you know, I generally

0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:25.600
<v Speaker 2>set sort of the bigger scale in the stage for

0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:30.760
<v Speaker 2>depth and scale of bunkers and greens. And then Jim

0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.400
<v Speaker 2>will come along, Jim Wagner, my partner, and he'll start

0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.200
<v Speaker 2>monkeying with an excavator or it's one of our other

0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.000
<v Speaker 2>one of the cave men will get involved and then

0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.560
<v Speaker 2>it we call it the theory of ever decreasing implements,

0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:43.920
<v Speaker 2>where we start off big scale, go to a mini x,

0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and then eventually wind up with rakes and shovels. And

0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.359
<v Speaker 2>so I think that they're you know, just that feeling

0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:54.440
<v Speaker 2>of creativity that just sort of you know, things that

0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.840
<v Speaker 2>the flow out of the moment. That's that's part of

0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.120
<v Speaker 2>what I love about that kind of music, and it's

0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.560
<v Speaker 2>also something I think that corresponds with our work.

0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.720
<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like the big stuff is the common

0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:09.960
<v Speaker 1>theme that run through a song, and then it's all

0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.560
<v Speaker 1>the little iterations and the layers and like I think

0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.000
<v Speaker 1>about like you know, like Stairway to Heaven, Like how

0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.320
<v Speaker 1>they starts with that one, you know, yeah, everybody I knows,

0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.040
<v Speaker 1>and then it just like through the song keeps building

0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.760
<v Speaker 1>on and then you get to the crescendo and it's

0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.560
<v Speaker 1>got every little piece of it.

0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:30.760
<v Speaker 2>It does, and it's you know, and like a band,

0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.360
<v Speaker 2>there's you know, lead singer, lead guitarist, and so I

0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:35.600
<v Speaker 2>get a ton of the credit for the stuff, but

0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.000
<v Speaker 2>it trusts me. I mean, it is a team effort.

0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.440
<v Speaker 2>It's all of our guys pitching in and it's it's

0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the different you know, we're all different sort of levels

0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.240
<v Speaker 2>of players, and we're all come to the game in

0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:52.200
<v Speaker 2>different ways, and there's just everybody adds every step along

0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.640
<v Speaker 2>the way, and so it's one of those things that

0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.200
<v Speaker 2>from a collaborative standpoint, I've always found myself to be

0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.560
<v Speaker 2>a very collaborative person, and I don't feel like I

0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:03.760
<v Speaker 2>have all the best ideas. I think that you know,

0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.360
<v Speaker 2>there are concepts and ideas and thoughts and principles that

0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:11.360
<v Speaker 2>I think are flow throughout our work. But it's that

0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.640
<v Speaker 2>sort of spontaneous nature of what happens in the field.

0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.360
<v Speaker 2>And that's something I learned from Tom Doak working for him,

0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.600
<v Speaker 2>and that's something he learned from Pete Dye and obviously

0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.919
<v Speaker 2>Bill and Ben they work in a similar fashion. But

0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.880
<v Speaker 2>it's that spontaneity. It's that field decisions. It's the reaction

0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:31.359
<v Speaker 2>to where the sunsets, how the wind blows, what a

0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.680
<v Speaker 2>tree looks like, what the background is, and just sort

0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:37.600
<v Speaker 2>of knowing and feeling and being on site that ultimately

0:04:38.240 --> 0:04:41.640
<v Speaker 2>lends itself provides those intricacies like you talked about, that

0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:45.440
<v Speaker 2>that ultimately gives the work its own special feel and

0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.960
<v Speaker 2>which would give music or a song its own special feel.

0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:50.680
<v Speaker 2>But it gets back to that, you know, there's always

0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:53.400
<v Speaker 2>the bass and the drums lay and the groundwork for it,

0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:57.720
<v Speaker 2>and we always feel like we have that groundwork flows

0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.320
<v Speaker 2>consistently from one project to the other. But it's you know,

0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.680
<v Speaker 2>those those solos that Jerry Garcia used to take off

0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.760
<v Speaker 2>and go wherever and hopefully great places. That's that's what

0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:12.640
<v Speaker 2>we feel like each individual project gets. And interestingly enough,

0:05:12.680 --> 0:05:15.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, it takes a special owner to trust you

0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.120
<v Speaker 2>to do that because you know, it could be described

0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:19.960
<v Speaker 2>as you're winging it or you're just making it up

0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:22.080
<v Speaker 2>as you go, and yes, there's an element to that.

0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:25.200
<v Speaker 2>And so you know, as you build your career, you

0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:26.840
<v Speaker 2>get to a point where you get more and more

0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:30.200
<v Speaker 2>trust and you earn more and more trust and respect.

0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.480
<v Speaker 2>And we're fortunately now at that point where we get

0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:36.320
<v Speaker 2>a lot of owners who are excited about what we're

0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.240
<v Speaker 2>doing and they trust and they've seen you know, there's

0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:43.120
<v Speaker 2>there's there's a track record for what we've been able

0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.440
<v Speaker 2>to accomplish. And I think you know Bill and Benner

0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:48.920
<v Speaker 2>at the peak of that, I mean this what they

0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.680
<v Speaker 2>come up with time in and time out. They've built

0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:54.839
<v Speaker 2>that trust. In that respect, Tom Doak has done the

0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.960
<v Speaker 2>same thing, and you know, we're excited. We kind of

0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.480
<v Speaker 2>feel like we've gotten to that point where where we're

0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.960
<v Speaker 2>allowed to take chances when we're out in the field,

0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.520
<v Speaker 2>and hopefully the chances that we take, you know, generally

0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:07.599
<v Speaker 2>are well received.

0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:12.599
<v Speaker 3>So when you're out working, do you listen to music?

0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:17.080
<v Speaker 2>I do, definitely, it would be boring otherwise. You know,

0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.320
<v Speaker 2>some of our guys listen to podcasts and they listen

0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:22.280
<v Speaker 2>to conversations or that you know, they're always talking about Well,

0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.080
<v Speaker 2>I was listening to this, you know, economist from Prague

0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.280
<v Speaker 2>and he was saying, why this, And I'm like, all right,

0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.279
<v Speaker 2>that's great. I appreciate that you're educated and smarter on

0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:32.920
<v Speaker 2>things like that than I am. But I just can't.

0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:36.680
<v Speaker 2>I can't focus and listen to something like that and

0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.520
<v Speaker 2>also feel like I'm being as creative and focused on

0:06:40.680 --> 0:06:43.719
<v Speaker 2>what I'm actually building. I'm not saying it can't be done.

0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.520
<v Speaker 2>It certainly can be. But I've just always felt like

0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.400
<v Speaker 2>music sets that tone for me. It's kind of background.

0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.120
<v Speaker 2>It can inspire what I'm doing, and certainly, like if

0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm listening to Rage against the Machine, it's probably going

0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.600
<v Speaker 2>to be a little bit heavier duties, or if I'm

0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.720
<v Speaker 2>listening to James Taylor, it might be a little bit

0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:06.200
<v Speaker 2>more mellow. But there's just that I think as a

0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:08.800
<v Speaker 2>backdrop for what I'm doing, I just find that music

0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.560
<v Speaker 2>is the best. Now. When the Eagles were making the

0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Super Bowl run, I was listening to the Philadelphia sports

0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.680
<v Speaker 2>talk radio, which is pretty much mindless when you listen

0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:21.600
<v Speaker 2>to sports talk radio, but it's fun, so it's not

0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:23.360
<v Speaker 2>something I have to really focus on. But yeah, I

0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:27.520
<v Speaker 2>think it's it's been something that, you know, when I

0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:29.640
<v Speaker 2>look back at the sort of the implements that we

0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.880
<v Speaker 2>used and going from a walkman to you know, with

0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.240
<v Speaker 2>the big bulky earphones that don't really fit over your ears,

0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:38.360
<v Speaker 2>and then eventually, you know, you get to an iPad,

0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.960
<v Speaker 2>it's like, oh my god, I can choose my own music.

0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:43.760
<v Speaker 2>Or you listen to the radio, and now you get

0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.800
<v Speaker 2>to the point with with Pandora and Spotify and you

0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.120
<v Speaker 2>know your own playlists or own music. Oh there's a

0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:51.480
<v Speaker 2>great if you're a Dead fan, there's a great app

0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:54.120
<v Speaker 2>called re Listen and it's got all shows on it,

0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:57.280
<v Speaker 2>and it's got Fish shows and Dead and company. So

0:07:57.520 --> 0:07:59.520
<v Speaker 2>there's so many options out there now to listen to

0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.920
<v Speaker 2>music that I certainly take advantage of that.

0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the on demand nature, it's fine. I I can't

0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.400
<v Speaker 1>listen to podcasts and write at the same time, Like

0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:12.680
<v Speaker 1>I just don't listen to the podcast. I'll none of

0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.480
<v Speaker 1>the But you know, if I listen to music, I

0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.440
<v Speaker 1>don't think I'll have to see if a different music

0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:20.520
<v Speaker 1>does different stuff.

0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:25.320
<v Speaker 3>But so I look at your schedule and I.

0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Think he might be the busiest man in golf.

0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:29.880
<v Speaker 3>What's what's it like?

0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.480
<v Speaker 2>It's busy, It's you know, I just came back from

0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:40.120
<v Speaker 2>an eleven day trip to Australia and Bangkok and then Tokyo,

0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.559
<v Speaker 2>so three different projects at different stages. Royal Sydney were

0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:46.520
<v Speaker 2>still in the planning and trying to put together a

0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:48.640
<v Speaker 2>master plan to take to the membership, hopefully for a

0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:52.200
<v Speaker 2>significant overhaul of the course. Bangkok. We're building a brand

0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720
<v Speaker 2>new golf course that's inspired by the Lido. It's not

0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.599
<v Speaker 2>an a perfect replica of it, but the sequence of

0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:03.040
<v Speaker 2>holes the same and we're excited. I've I've always loved,

0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, the restoration work we've done for McDonald and Rainer.

0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.440
<v Speaker 2>So this is kind of a fun project on a

0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.760
<v Speaker 2>not very fun site, really heavy soil and very flat.

0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.319
<v Speaker 2>But I've got some guys over there we're not getting

0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.960
<v Speaker 2>into shape, which is pretty cool. And then Tokyo Golf Club,

0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:23.120
<v Speaker 2>which is a renovation slash restoration of an existing golf course.

0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.080
<v Speaker 2>We you know, not a lot of people know, but

0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.720
<v Speaker 2>Japan traditionally had two sets of greens per whole, and

0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:33.439
<v Speaker 2>long time ago, it was all for agonomic reasons. It

0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:36.959
<v Speaker 2>was ben grass for the winter and permuda grass for

0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:39.760
<v Speaker 2>the summer, but that fell by the way side of

0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Tokyo Golf Club has retained both greens, so we rebuilt

0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.920
<v Speaker 2>one set of greens eight or nine years ago. Now

0:09:45.920 --> 0:09:48.040
<v Speaker 2>we're redoing the second set of greens, and we're redoing

0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.240
<v Speaker 2>fairway bunkers starting this summer. So it's basically a complete

0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:56.840
<v Speaker 2>overhaul of Tokyo Golf Club, principally a restoration, but since

0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.439
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't originally built with two greens, it's not quite

0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.720
<v Speaker 2>a purest. So yeah, you get that sort of travel,

0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:05.240
<v Speaker 2>then you get to come home to Pinehurst and work

0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.400
<v Speaker 2>on this. So we're you know, I just look at

0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.480
<v Speaker 2>it as we're really fortunate. We're getting to go to

0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:13.360
<v Speaker 2>great places and be involved in great stuff, and so

0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:16.360
<v Speaker 2>there's no I would never think to complain about being

0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:18.080
<v Speaker 2>as busy as we are. I think, you know, with

0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:21.079
<v Speaker 2>Jim Wagner and my partner, we just keep our heads

0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.480
<v Speaker 2>down and try and keep focused and kind of keep

0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:25.000
<v Speaker 2>moving forward.

0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:27.240
<v Speaker 3>The two green thing.

0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:31.120
<v Speaker 1>You did the double green at stream Song Black, and

0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:35.120
<v Speaker 1>I read after that that double greens are used to

0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:37.439
<v Speaker 1>be like a real thing, and you know, when you're

0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.320
<v Speaker 1>talking about variety for a whole and how you could

0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.480
<v Speaker 1>completely shake it up, like you know, one thing could

0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.080
<v Speaker 1>be moving a pin from one side of a green

0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.320
<v Speaker 1>to the next, but like a whole different ballgame when

0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:48.160
<v Speaker 1>you got two greens.

0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.400
<v Speaker 2>It is and it's pretty cool because now that we've

0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:56.600
<v Speaker 2>been able to touch all thirty six greens, we were challenged.

0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.800
<v Speaker 2>And I'll just be honest about that. It's hard to

0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.760
<v Speaker 2>come up with thirty six general ideas with fairly small

0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.240
<v Speaker 2>greens because they can't be huge because of the amount

0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.240
<v Speaker 2>of space that they have. But I think Neil Cameron

0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.440
<v Speaker 2>from Barra, Scotland is our associate living and working over there,

0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:13.040
<v Speaker 2>and I think between Neil and I were able to

0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.839
<v Speaker 2>come up with some pretty good ideas and you're right

0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.439
<v Speaker 2>now you correspond that to the strategies in different ways

0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.120
<v Speaker 2>to play it. And one of the cooler aspects is

0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:26.559
<v Speaker 2>that the par threes all have not only two greens

0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.560
<v Speaker 2>per whole, but two t's, so they crisscross, so you'd

0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:32.840
<v Speaker 2>play one green from one angle and one from the other,

0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.840
<v Speaker 2>so they're basically brand completely, you know, all new holes

0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:40.760
<v Speaker 2>from T two green. So as a member, I think

0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:42.200
<v Speaker 2>it would be pretty neat to be able to show

0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.160
<v Speaker 2>up and just be able to play. You know, you're

0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.000
<v Speaker 2>never not sure which course you're going to be playing

0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.160
<v Speaker 2>on or which combination of greens, and I think that

0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.200
<v Speaker 2>that would would hold a lot of interest.

0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.760
<v Speaker 1>Is there like an innovative design that you'd want to do,

0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:59.080
<v Speaker 1>like a new design that would be different than the

0:11:59.120 --> 0:12:02.440
<v Speaker 1>standard eighteen holes.

0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.240
<v Speaker 2>I was reading an article I think in Golfer's Journal

0:12:05.280 --> 0:12:09.320
<v Speaker 2>about Schiskin over in Scotland and about the twelve hole

0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.839
<v Speaker 2>golf course and I think, you know, the just kind

0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.840
<v Speaker 2>of how it came back to the clubhouse after twelve

0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think that would be cool to to work

0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.160
<v Speaker 2>on a twelve hole course just fro from a timing perspective,

0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.360
<v Speaker 2>because you know, we've all taught, we've all heard the

0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:24.920
<v Speaker 2>stories about why golf is either not growing or has

0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.880
<v Speaker 2>failed doomed to fail in the future. And you know

0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:29.560
<v Speaker 2>the time it takes to play. So I think twelve

0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.920
<v Speaker 2>hole golf course would be you can find an owner

0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:33.480
<v Speaker 2>who would back that, that'd be pretty cool.

0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:34.920
<v Speaker 3>It would be cool.

0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.440
<v Speaker 1>I always say that in like I live in the

0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.560
<v Speaker 1>city of Chicago. Like if I go leave the city,

0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.160
<v Speaker 1>it takes forever, and then obviously you have no land

0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:44.679
<v Speaker 1>in the city.

0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.719
<v Speaker 3>But if somebody built like a four hole course that you.

0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.360
<v Speaker 1>That you could play four holes in an hour and

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:53.920
<v Speaker 1>instead of going to the gym, he played four holes,

0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:57.720
<v Speaker 1>that would be that would probably work. But you have

0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 1>to I mean, time is is a it seems like

0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 1>it's getting less and less with technology now. So when

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.640
<v Speaker 1>did you kind of figure out that you wanted to

0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:09.439
<v Speaker 1>be an architect.

0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:16.040
<v Speaker 2>I was late in coming to the party. It was

0:13:16.080 --> 0:13:18.320
<v Speaker 2>really just sort of I mean, a lot of luck

0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:21.680
<v Speaker 2>and just I don't know, sometimes you believe in fate.

0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.000
<v Speaker 2>If you do, this was probably just meant to be.

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:24.480
<v Speaker 3>It was.

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 2>I was introduced to the game by my grandfather, loved

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.160
<v Speaker 2>him dearly, and he I mean, I idolized him. And

0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.640
<v Speaker 2>so from a standpoint of him putting a golf club

0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.839
<v Speaker 2>in my hands, the time I got to spend with

0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.720
<v Speaker 2>him on a golf course was always just wonderful. And

0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.320
<v Speaker 2>so I don't know if there was something magical about

0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.319
<v Speaker 2>that environment or the golf course was an old Tillinghass

0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.360
<v Speaker 2>golf course on Long Island called Southward Hoe, so it

0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.600
<v Speaker 2>was well designed and a really neat but short track,

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.600
<v Speaker 2>and so then I started doodling golf holes. But he

0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.680
<v Speaker 2>was a politician. So I then went to the University

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 2>of Denver and study political science and history, which is,

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:02.679
<v Speaker 2>you know, one of these great things, which I'm interested

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:04.760
<v Speaker 2>in both of them. But now what do you do?

0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:07.240
<v Speaker 2>And so I didn't have a job offer out of school,

0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:09.920
<v Speaker 2>so I went to grad school. So you either go

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:12.280
<v Speaker 2>to grad school or law school if you're a POLYPSI

0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.280
<v Speaker 2>history major. So grad school at Cornell, studying city and

0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:20.400
<v Speaker 2>regional planning, still doodling golf holes. And my first semester

0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:23.680
<v Speaker 2>at Cornell I took a landscape architecture class and I

0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.160
<v Speaker 2>met a gentleman who was taking it, whose name was

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:29.200
<v Speaker 2>Tom Griswold. He was studying to be a golf course

0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>architect and I was like what, and he said, yeah,

0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.680
<v Speaker 2>we can do this here and the faculty is supportive

0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:38.320
<v Speaker 2>of it and the whole deal. And he subsequently went

0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 2>on to work for Tom Fazio for twenty plus years.

0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.840
<v Speaker 2>And I went home that night and I just said

0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 2>to Tracy, I said, this is it. Actually you can

0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:49.359
<v Speaker 2>do this, and I want to switch into landscape architecture.

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Switched over. First summer worked maintenance in the country coll

0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.560
<v Speaker 2>of Itthica. Second summer worked at high Point for Tom

0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Doak on his construction crew, picking rocks and digging ditches

0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.440
<v Speaker 2>and doing anything I possibly could, and eventually, by the

0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 2>end of the summer he threw me on a bulldozer

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.080
<v Speaker 2>for two days, which was awesome and really just kind

0:15:09.080 --> 0:15:11.760
<v Speaker 2>of kept the bug going. And then I won a

0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:14.480
<v Speaker 2>scholarship to spend a year in Great Britain, the Drear Award,

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 2>which Tom had won previous to me at Cornell, and

0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:21.320
<v Speaker 2>came back and finished up and went to work for Tom.

0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:25.400
<v Speaker 2>So it was this circuitous path to get there. I'm

0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 2>delighted I did. But oddly enough, when I was a

0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:31.040
<v Speaker 2>senior at DU I interned for a congressman and he

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.720
<v Speaker 2>didn't have a position for me. So first semester at

0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 2>Cornell just flipped the switch, made the decision to go

0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.880
<v Speaker 2>into become a golf course our study to be a

0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.240
<v Speaker 2>golf course architect. Within a week he calls me and

0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.120
<v Speaker 2>he says, I've got a job for you in Washington

0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.920
<v Speaker 2>if you want it. And thank god, I said no.

0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean, who knows where I'd be right now. But

0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.720
<v Speaker 2>it was, you know, it was just one of those

0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 2>decisions in life. Now you look back and you say,

0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>thank God, you know I made the right one.

0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.400
<v Speaker 1>It's funny how life works out that that kind of

0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.560
<v Speaker 1>stuff that happens all the time. Yeah, I mean it tested,

0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:06.880
<v Speaker 1>it made you really decide and jump all I mean

0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 1>jump all in. There's no in or out. Probably the

0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Drear Award you get to spend three months in a.

0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 3>Year in Great Britain.

0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So which courses had the most influenced?

0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So we we did it a little bit different

0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.520
<v Speaker 2>because so Tracy was with me and we were we

0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 2>spent six months outside of Saint Andrew's rented a house

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.080
<v Speaker 2>and then used as home base to move around Scotland,

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.280
<v Speaker 2>and then six months in Woodstock outside of Oxford. Because

0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:42.520
<v Speaker 2>I interned for Hawtry and Son and helped mister Hawtrey

0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.640
<v Speaker 2>do the research for his book Colton Company, which allowed

0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.440
<v Speaker 2>me to see a bunch of Harry Colt courses, which

0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.320
<v Speaker 2>was great. So from that standpoint, it was just looking,

0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.320
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of day trips in and out in

0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.840
<v Speaker 2>a few longer excursions. But I think the the courses

0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.360
<v Speaker 2>that influenced me the most were the ones that were

0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.560
<v Speaker 2>the quirkiest, you know, the North Barracks, the Cruden Bays,

0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:11.880
<v Speaker 2>the Prestwicks, because they showed me sort of the boundaries

0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.880
<v Speaker 2>of where golf architecture could go, how far you could

0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.480
<v Speaker 2>stretch it, that yes, it was acceptable to build a

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.679
<v Speaker 2>green with a wall running directly in front of it

0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:22.560
<v Speaker 2>that you had to play over the top of that,

0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, blind holes were okay, and that you know,

0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.760
<v Speaker 2>trying to utilize and route a golf course through the

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:34.399
<v Speaker 2>most wonderful golfing terrain is an exercise not only in

0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.840
<v Speaker 2>finding the best golf holes, but finding the best pattern

0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>and not using up all the best ground at a

0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.679
<v Speaker 2>certain point and going you know, back and forth to

0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.960
<v Speaker 2>the sea, et cetera. So I think that those golf

0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:50.639
<v Speaker 2>courses in particular provided that that type of window into

0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, ultimately what we talked about earlier, the spontaneity,

0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.720
<v Speaker 2>the creativity of where you might ultimately go with golf

0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.239
<v Speaker 2>course architecture. And Tom Doak was a great proponent of that,

0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.600
<v Speaker 2>of seeing those golf courses, and you know, he gave

0:18:02.640 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 2>me a great list of courses to go and look

0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.959
<v Speaker 2>out that were sort of off the beaten paths, the

0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:11.560
<v Speaker 2>boats of garden, you know, the broras, et cetera. And

0:18:11.640 --> 0:18:14.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that while you take a ton away from

0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.040
<v Speaker 2>all the usual suspects and you know, appropriately, so it

0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.080
<v Speaker 2>was these ones that you know, you maybe you'd only

0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:26.159
<v Speaker 2>see one really distinguishing design characteristic, but it would be

0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.600
<v Speaker 2>something that would always lock away in your mind for

0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:34.360
<v Speaker 2>future reference or for it's some level you know, saying, hey,

0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:37.639
<v Speaker 2>it's okay to try and push that button and try

0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.720
<v Speaker 2>and stretch the boundaries a little bit, as long as

0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:43.199
<v Speaker 2>as long as it feels like it fits into the

0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:45.480
<v Speaker 2>context of the landscape you're working with. So those were

0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:47.159
<v Speaker 2>I think some of the best lessons.

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of that, like how much do you feel your

0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.760
<v Speaker 1>extensive restoration work helps your new builds?

0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 2>I think it helps us a ton because it's it's

0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:04.200
<v Speaker 2>an opportunity for us to really study what Tilling has

0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:07.600
<v Speaker 2>did it at Wingfoot, what Thomas did at La North,

0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>what you know Ross did at Plainfield or on the mank.

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.920
<v Speaker 2>It gives us the opportunity to really dive into their

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.280
<v Speaker 2>thought process. And I say that in a specific you know,

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:22.520
<v Speaker 2>you mentioned specific golf courses, because I think that's the

0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.679
<v Speaker 2>only way you can do it. I've never been a

0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:28.919
<v Speaker 2>fan of the use of the word typical as it

0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.240
<v Speaker 2>relates to golf course architects as well. Ross typically built

0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.360
<v Speaker 2>greens like Pinehurst Number two. Well no he didn't. Actually,

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.159
<v Speaker 2>well Ross typically built grass faced bunkers. Well that's not

0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.840
<v Speaker 2>necessarily true. Or Tilling has did this or that, And

0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's you need to find out specifically what

0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.080
<v Speaker 2>did they do at that golf course that you're you're restoring.

0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.719
<v Speaker 2>And you know I mentioned history being one of my majors.

0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.199
<v Speaker 2>Well that you know that research and the interest and

0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:57.600
<v Speaker 2>the thought of being involved and really dredging up and

0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>trying to find that information has always been a fascinat

0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.960
<v Speaker 2>part of what we do. So armed with that knowledge,

0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.480
<v Speaker 2>we can then go and hopefully do the right thing.

0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.320
<v Speaker 2>By that golf course by the way it looks and

0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.400
<v Speaker 2>the way it fits, and put it back to their

0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.480
<v Speaker 2>original design. But then we can also borrow or steal

0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.280
<v Speaker 2>ideas that we liked and then throw away things that

0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:22.400
<v Speaker 2>we didn't like. I think it's it always is helpful

0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 2>from a learning perspective to be exposed to other people's

0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.480
<v Speaker 2>thoughts and principles. You can ultimately choose to accept or

0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:36.040
<v Speaker 2>reject those, but to not necessarily think about them, whether

0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:39.879
<v Speaker 2>that's politics, life anything. I just think that would be

0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.359
<v Speaker 2>a bad way to go through through life. And so

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.520
<v Speaker 2>we've We've always thought if we can work on a design,

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:49.480
<v Speaker 2>it will help us to be a work on somebody

0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:51.320
<v Speaker 2>else's design, will help us to be a better golf

0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 2>course architect. I know that personally. Will work that we

0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:59.520
<v Speaker 2>did at Los Angeles Country Club on the North Course,

0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:03.480
<v Speaker 2>working with f Shackelford and Jim and I has had

0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:06.119
<v Speaker 2>a profound impact on me as a golf course architect.

0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:08.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm a much much better golf course architect by being

0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:11.840
<v Speaker 2>able to study what George Thomas did. I mean that

0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.440
<v Speaker 2>guy was a genius, what he was thinking about back

0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.520
<v Speaker 2>then and how he applied it to LACC I mean

0:21:17.560 --> 0:21:20.000
<v Speaker 2>talk about a mad scientist and having sort of a

0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:24.480
<v Speaker 2>great laboratory for an experiment. But everything he tried was brilliant,

0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.080
<v Speaker 2>it was audacious, it was exciting. And to look at

0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:31.000
<v Speaker 2>that and then go from there right to Rio to

0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the Olympic Course and just chock full of courses within

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:38.040
<v Speaker 2>a course and different angles and different thoughts and set

0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:43.359
<v Speaker 2>up and the utilization of natural features as hazards. I mean,

0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:47.040
<v Speaker 2>that was really very impactful on what we do. So

0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:51.320
<v Speaker 2>I think we're hopeful that every time we approach one

0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 2>of these projects, we do so with a mindset of listen,

0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.920
<v Speaker 2>it's not our work, it's their work. Let's make sure

0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:59.639
<v Speaker 2>we work hard to get the details right, because I

0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:02.119
<v Speaker 2>think that's one of the things that can be missing

0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:04.840
<v Speaker 2>in this day and age as it relates to restoration

0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.440
<v Speaker 2>of golf courses, is that remember, they worked with shovels

0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:10.879
<v Speaker 2>and rakes and mules and scrapers, and we try to

0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 2>do everything now with bigger pieces of equipment, and we

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.080
<v Speaker 2>can't ever lose sight of the fact that we've got

0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:19.440
<v Speaker 2>to finish all of their work by hand. We can't

0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 2>finish it with machines. And I think that getting those

0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.600
<v Speaker 2>details right is just as important as finding an old

0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>bunker on an aerial photograph and making sure we put

0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:32.000
<v Speaker 2>it back in the right scale, right size. But how

0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 2>we finish it is just as important, if not more

0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:37.679
<v Speaker 2>important than getting it in the right place.

0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Restorations like a big buzzword right now. When is it

0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:47.720
<v Speaker 1>right to restore versus renovate?

0:22:49.640 --> 0:22:54.040
<v Speaker 2>We've always looked at it as restoration is when the

0:22:54.080 --> 0:22:58.560
<v Speaker 2>project is principally based on the design of an original

0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:04.600
<v Speaker 2>architect and the goal is to keep the focus and

0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:08.159
<v Speaker 2>the philosophy on that. Renovation is when we feel like

0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 2>we can put our fingers on it and kind of

0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:14.600
<v Speaker 2>make manipulate, make changes, or the golf course has been

0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:20.199
<v Speaker 2>changed so significantly from the original design that and if

0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:22.920
<v Speaker 2>you can't put it back, then you feel like it's

0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 2>more of a renovation. I'm generally a proponent of any

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:33.800
<v Speaker 2>time a golf course is was designed and built by

0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.920
<v Speaker 2>one of the recognized great golf course architects, that should

0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.320
<v Speaker 2>always be first and foremost a restoration. I just think that,

0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:44.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, we value the works of like a Frank

0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:47.359
<v Speaker 2>Lloyd Wright or the Corbusier, or you know, all these

0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:52.200
<v Speaker 2>greats of design. Why shouldn't we pay the same attention

0:23:52.280 --> 0:23:55.240
<v Speaker 2>to an Alistair mackenzie or Charles Bay MacDonald. Why shouldn't

0:23:56.560 --> 0:24:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I think it's it's really ballsy and arrogant for any

0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.120
<v Speaker 2>current modern golf course architect to feel like they can

0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:08.400
<v Speaker 2>improve on that. Why would you even need to? I mean,

0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:10.359
<v Speaker 2>that's what our own work is for, is try and

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:15.120
<v Speaker 2>go out and prove that we can build something comparable compatible.

0:24:15.200 --> 0:24:18.399
<v Speaker 2>But to feel like we should put our fingerprints all

0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:20.280
<v Speaker 2>over something that was done by one of the best

0:24:20.359 --> 0:24:25.919
<v Speaker 2>who ever practiced, and then to remove that from the

0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.400
<v Speaker 2>face of the earth in theory forever. I just don't

0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:31.960
<v Speaker 2>understand how anybody could walk into a project and just

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:35.639
<v Speaker 2>feel comfortable doing that. It just it doesn't make any sense.

0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:37.399
<v Speaker 2>Now they could be you know, people could say, well,

0:24:37.440 --> 0:24:40.639
<v Speaker 2>I'm being somewhat qualitative. Is who am I to decide

0:24:40.680 --> 0:24:44.480
<v Speaker 2>whether you know, a seth rain or course is more

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:48.320
<v Speaker 2>important than a course designed by you know, some no

0:24:48.440 --> 0:24:51.040
<v Speaker 2>name architect or some guy you know who built one

0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:53.080
<v Speaker 2>or two golf courses, And you know that there's an

0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.080
<v Speaker 2>argument that can be made for that. We we just

0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:58.080
<v Speaker 2>look at it and we're fortunate enough now to be

0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:01.600
<v Speaker 2>working on courses that were just by these top guys.

0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Is that it's really really important for us to focus

0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:10.000
<v Speaker 2>first and foremost on what they did. And you know,

0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:12.000
<v Speaker 2>where you go off script a little bit is if

0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:15.040
<v Speaker 2>you can figure out that, okay, they're the thought process

0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:17.600
<v Speaker 2>for the golf hole was this, and there's a bunker

0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:20.199
<v Speaker 2>they placed one hundred and eighty yards and it just

0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:24.439
<v Speaker 2>doesn't work for the modern game anymore. So do you

0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 2>leave that in place and then add a second one

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:30.680
<v Speaker 2>further down, you know, so that it challenges the current

0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:33.160
<v Speaker 2>player that that bunker was intended? Or do you take

0:25:33.200 --> 0:25:35.879
<v Speaker 2>it out and then add the other one in the

0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.160
<v Speaker 2>same shape or form as long as the topography will

0:25:38.160 --> 0:25:41.600
<v Speaker 2>support putting it in a new location. Those are the

0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:44.960
<v Speaker 2>difficult questions. I think that, and I don't feel like

0:25:45.040 --> 0:25:49.119
<v Speaker 2>that's bastardizing or destroying or taking away the work of

0:25:49.200 --> 0:25:51.520
<v Speaker 2>somebody else, as long as we're careful again and getting

0:25:51.560 --> 0:25:55.879
<v Speaker 2>the details right and making it look and feel as

0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:59.280
<v Speaker 2>if it could have been there forever. So it's not

0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.040
<v Speaker 2>as simple is always saying well, here's the aerial photograph

0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:04.119
<v Speaker 2>and here's the topo map, or here's the plan of

0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:06.199
<v Speaker 2>such and such, and let's put it back exactly the

0:26:06.240 --> 0:26:09.920
<v Speaker 2>same because you you maintain golf courses differently from when

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:12.640
<v Speaker 2>they were when that guy designed it, and you play

0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:15.320
<v Speaker 2>the golf course differently. So I think it's important to

0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:19.480
<v Speaker 2>factor all of those things into the evolution of the course,

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:24.560
<v Speaker 2>yet still stay as true as possible to that original design.

0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.840
<v Speaker 2>So it's it's not maybe not as cut and dried

0:26:27.880 --> 0:26:29.680
<v Speaker 2>as I'd like for it to be. And I would say,

0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:31.439
<v Speaker 2>if you're going to air on one side, you always

0:26:31.560 --> 0:26:34.480
<v Speaker 2>err on the side of protecting and preserving what that

0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:35.639
<v Speaker 2>what that person built.

0:26:36.600 --> 0:26:40.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's it's tough because the courses were designed for

0:26:40.400 --> 0:26:43.280
<v Speaker 1>like the high level player back then, and the bunker.

0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:45.880
<v Speaker 1>A lot of the bunkers are and now it's kind

0:26:45.880 --> 0:26:49.040
<v Speaker 1>of interesting how it's changed to where those places are

0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 1>where like the regularly eye hits.

0:26:50.800 --> 0:26:52.159
<v Speaker 3>It now a lot of times.

0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:54.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's very true. I mean, it was intended to

0:26:54.320 --> 0:26:57.600
<v Speaker 2>be for the longer guys. So we talk an awful

0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:00.440
<v Speaker 2>lot about Okay, let's not clutter up the lane escape,

0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:03.280
<v Speaker 2>let's not you know, let's not take leave the bunker

0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:05.880
<v Speaker 2>at two twenty and then add another one at three hundred,

0:27:06.480 --> 0:27:08.320
<v Speaker 2>or add another one at two sixty and then another

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.600
<v Speaker 2>one at three hundred. I just don't think that that

0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:14.520
<v Speaker 2>sort of multiplication works. It just doesn't feel right in

0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.240
<v Speaker 2>the landscape. So you're really focused on which if you're

0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:20.879
<v Speaker 2>going to add, let's just add one. Let's not really

0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:24.800
<v Speaker 2>try and overdo or overpower the landscape.

0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Now that we're talking about Golden Age, great, who's your

0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:32.720
<v Speaker 1>Mount Rushmore of golf course architecture?

0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:45.680
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I would say it's McKenzie certainly, tilling Hast, McDonald

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:48.000
<v Speaker 2>and Rayner count as one or they they two? I

0:27:48.000 --> 0:27:54.280
<v Speaker 2>don't even okay put them together, the two headed monster.

0:27:54.440 --> 0:27:58.280
<v Speaker 2>And then George Thomas. Yeah, I think that those guys

0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:03.959
<v Speaker 2>all they ran the gamut for They were creative, they

0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:06.720
<v Speaker 2>were innovative, There were geniuses.

0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:07.920
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:28:08.000 --> 0:28:12.080
<v Speaker 2>McDonald Rayner obviously had the same template over and over again.

0:28:12.200 --> 0:28:15.680
<v Speaker 2>But the way they discovered those golf holes in different landscapes,

0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:21.200
<v Speaker 2>in different settings, I think qualified them to be geniuses

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:24.439
<v Speaker 2>as far as you know, even though they're replicating it

0:28:24.480 --> 0:28:27.520
<v Speaker 2>was somewhat formulaic. That formula I think has proven to

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:31.800
<v Speaker 2>be a of high quality and be of incredible fun.

0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:34.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, to play that you never get I never

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:36.000
<v Speaker 2>heard a single person in my life say, oh, I

0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:38.320
<v Speaker 2>played a Rainer course or a McDonald course, and I

0:28:38.320 --> 0:28:39.160
<v Speaker 2>had a bad time.

0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:42.360
<v Speaker 1>The other thing is like a lot of the a

0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:45.480
<v Speaker 1>lot of great holes on Rainer and McDonald courses aren't

0:28:45.480 --> 0:28:48.640
<v Speaker 1>template holes where they allowed the land to just do

0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:49.200
<v Speaker 1>his thing.

0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely yeah. I mean then that showed some of their

0:28:52.200 --> 0:28:57.080
<v Speaker 2>creativity and their their flexibility and finding not only finding

0:28:57.360 --> 0:28:59.880
<v Speaker 2>the right places for the templates, but finding good golf

0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:03.760
<v Speaker 2>as well. Mackenzie, I think was probably the first architect

0:29:03.840 --> 0:29:10.600
<v Speaker 2>to really get the whole His combination of strategy with

0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:13.560
<v Speaker 2>beauty in the landscape I think was far superior to

0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:16.200
<v Speaker 2>anybody else who practiced in his time frame. He really

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:21.920
<v Speaker 2>got the whole package. He built interesting, strategic, creative holes

0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:25.600
<v Speaker 2>to play, but they were just amazing to look at

0:29:25.640 --> 0:29:27.840
<v Speaker 2>as well, and he just plugged them into the landscape

0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:33.560
<v Speaker 2>better than anybody in tilling Has I think was really,

0:29:33.800 --> 0:29:38.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, just a chameleon almost. I mean his courses changed,

0:29:38.120 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, the looks and the presentations and the way

0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:44.640
<v Speaker 2>he set things up, but they were always just really

0:29:44.720 --> 0:29:49.360
<v Speaker 2>stout good golf courses. And Thomas, as I mentioned before,

0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:51.960
<v Speaker 2>I just it's a shame he didn't do more golf

0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:53.920
<v Speaker 2>courses because that guy was a g I mean, he

0:29:54.040 --> 0:29:55.760
<v Speaker 2>was really freaking brilliant.

0:29:56.840 --> 0:30:00.880
<v Speaker 1>It's amazing the Philadelphia school of Archel Texture, you know,

0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:05.600
<v Speaker 1>Thomas and tilling Hast came from that, and how they

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:09.120
<v Speaker 1>have shaped championship golf in America. Like if you look

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:12.320
<v Speaker 1>down George Thomas's courses, like you know, some of the

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.800
<v Speaker 1>best championship court and then tilling Hast, I mean, resume,

0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:19.600
<v Speaker 1>William Flynn, resume, it's in. I mean, you've spent a

0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.760
<v Speaker 1>ton of time in Philadelphia. It's got to be you know.

0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's exciting because I mean, yeah, I grew up

0:30:28.000 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>in New York, but we've lived in Philadelphia for longer

0:30:31.200 --> 0:30:32.920
<v Speaker 2>than Emmy. We've been there for twenty five years, so

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:35.160
<v Speaker 2>that's been home. All three kids have been raised there.

0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:39.719
<v Speaker 2>We feel like we're Philadelphians, and so we're proud of that.

0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:41.840
<v Speaker 2>But the interesting thing is you look any of you

0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.040
<v Speaker 2>throw a stone anywhere in Philadelphia and going to hit

0:30:44.080 --> 0:30:47.560
<v Speaker 2>a really good golf course. I mean, like the seventh

0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:50.040
<v Speaker 2>or eighth best golf course in Philadelphia would be one

0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:52.360
<v Speaker 2>of the top golf courses in almost any other city

0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:54.520
<v Speaker 2>in the country. And you know, while in New York,

0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.719
<v Speaker 2>the met area claims you're probably the best from a rankings. Man,

0:30:57.760 --> 0:31:00.760
<v Speaker 2>they throw a very wide blanket over a bit. You've

0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:05.880
<v Speaker 2>got Long Island, Westchester, New Jersey, Connecticut. But Philly, you know,

0:31:06.160 --> 0:31:08.320
<v Speaker 2>we've got a ton of good courses. And I think

0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:10.120
<v Speaker 2>a lot of that is a testament to the guys

0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:12.560
<v Speaker 2>that you talked about. I mean they were locals, they

0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:15.000
<v Speaker 2>practiced in that area. I mean, William Flynn has got

0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 2>six or seven phenomenal golf courses in and around Philadelphia.

0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:24.080
<v Speaker 2>Tilly has to a few. Obviously, George Crump and you

0:31:24.200 --> 0:31:28.280
<v Speaker 2>Wilson to one hit wonders. But man, how good are you?

0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:29.600
<v Speaker 2>How good are those two courses?

0:31:29.760 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 1>You talked about collaboration too, and those are two of

0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 1>the biggest collaborations. And I mean Pine Valley was all

0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:40.280
<v Speaker 1>those guys bouncing ideas off of it, with Crump deciding

0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 1>which ones he liked.

0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:44.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's you know, you ultimately need to have that

0:31:44.080 --> 0:31:46.960
<v Speaker 2>final editor. I mean the arbiter of who's going to say, Okay,

0:31:47.000 --> 0:31:49.440
<v Speaker 2>this is what's going to hit the ground. And you

0:31:49.480 --> 0:31:52.080
<v Speaker 2>know Crump was obviously brilliant at that. He had the

0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 2>respect of his friends who came out to help him,

0:31:56.360 --> 0:31:59.600
<v Speaker 2>and then he had the respect of the professionals who

0:31:59.640 --> 0:32:01.880
<v Speaker 2>came bease as they realized they looked at Pine Valley

0:32:01.920 --> 0:32:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and realized the brilliance of what he was building and

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:09.360
<v Speaker 2>the the opportunity that that canvas presented. So they all

0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:12.160
<v Speaker 2>wanted to chime in and be part of it. So

0:32:12.200 --> 0:32:14.320
<v Speaker 2>when you have a circle of friends that are really

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.160
<v Speaker 2>astute at it, and then you can also bring in

0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:19.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, the Travises and the Rosses and colt et cetera,

0:32:20.440 --> 0:32:22.440
<v Speaker 2>that's a pretty good lineup to draw from. And he,

0:32:22.600 --> 0:32:25.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, he was great at figuring out what made

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the most sense.

0:32:26.960 --> 0:32:30.240
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel I'll say, you said, George Thomas, it

0:32:30.400 --> 0:32:33.640
<v Speaker 1>might be a little underappreciated, but any other architect that

0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:38.360
<v Speaker 1>stands out is like most underappreciated by the general public.

0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, boy, that's a good I mean, probably William Flynn.

0:32:46.600 --> 0:32:49.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he did such a great amount of work

0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:51.600
<v Speaker 2>in and around our area, so he's really well known

0:32:51.640 --> 0:32:54.720
<v Speaker 2>in Philadelphia. But you know, outside of that, obviously, Shinnecockle,

0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:59.160
<v Speaker 2>he'll get a lot of exposure this year, Cherry Hills,

0:32:59.160 --> 0:33:02.440
<v Speaker 2>et cetera. But I think he was he was really good,

0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:04.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know, some people might be surprised that I

0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:07.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't put Ross on my Mount Rushmore, especially since we're

0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:10.000
<v Speaker 2>sitting in his house so might get a visitation tonight

0:33:10.160 --> 0:33:14.760
<v Speaker 2>from from Donald. You know, I think that his golf

0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:18.240
<v Speaker 2>courses that he spent time on are brilliant. I mean

0:33:18.320 --> 0:33:20.800
<v Speaker 2>course number two, seminole around, I mean the ones that

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:23.640
<v Speaker 2>you can you know, Vanessa mean, he's got a ton

0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:26.760
<v Speaker 2>of great, great golf courses, but there's always look at

0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:33.600
<v Speaker 2>him as is always solid, seldom brilliant, you know that,

0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:36.719
<v Speaker 2>And that I think is is that sort of workload

0:33:37.080 --> 0:33:39.560
<v Speaker 2>that you know, you can't physically be, especially in his

0:33:39.680 --> 0:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>day and age, you just couldn't. I don't know how

0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.800
<v Speaker 2>four hundred or five hundred plus courses, whatever the number is,

0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:48.360
<v Speaker 2>how how you could spend any a ton of time

0:33:48.440 --> 0:33:50.959
<v Speaker 2>on them. But he was so good at just figuring

0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.640
<v Speaker 2>out the best way to route a golf course on

0:33:53.680 --> 0:33:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the property that that's why they're always I've never seen

0:33:57.880 --> 0:34:00.080
<v Speaker 2>a bad Donald Ross golf course. But I think if

0:33:59.960 --> 0:34:03.040
<v Speaker 2>you look at the sort of stacking, if you compare

0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:05.920
<v Speaker 2>the best of Mackenzie to the best of Ross, the

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:07.880
<v Speaker 2>best of tilling As to the best of Ross, I

0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.600
<v Speaker 2>think that's that's where you probably start to see that

0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:14.560
<v Speaker 2>those guys maybe were because they limited the amount of

0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:16.479
<v Speaker 2>work that they took on and they spent more time

0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:20.719
<v Speaker 2>on their projects being h you know, probably being a

0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:23.640
<v Speaker 2>little bit above and not why Ross doesn't make my

0:34:23.760 --> 0:34:24.279
<v Speaker 2>rush more.

0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:27.279
<v Speaker 3>You spoke at workload.

0:34:27.880 --> 0:34:31.319
<v Speaker 1>So one of the things I find absolutely fascinating about

0:34:31.360 --> 0:34:36.320
<v Speaker 1>your profession is that you go from a young architect

0:34:36.360 --> 0:34:40.360
<v Speaker 1>that struggling to find work, trying to get jobs, scraping

0:34:40.440 --> 0:34:43.480
<v Speaker 1>for jobs, and then there's always a moment that all

0:34:43.480 --> 0:34:47.200
<v Speaker 1>of a sudden, then you become a popular name and

0:34:47.239 --> 0:34:50.960
<v Speaker 1>then you almost have too much work? How hard is

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:52.839
<v Speaker 1>that moment to deal with?

0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:57.960
<v Speaker 2>So I'll never forget it was. I'm gonna forget the date.

0:34:58.040 --> 0:35:01.560
<v Speaker 2>It was the Open Championship at Royal Lithm. I want

0:35:01.560 --> 0:35:03.120
<v Speaker 2>to say it was either eighty eight or any and

0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I think it was eighty eight. It was the first

0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:06.719
<v Speaker 2>time I ever met Ben Crenshaw and he was just

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:11.719
<v Speaker 2>getting going with Bill Corr and he was discussing that

0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:15.080
<v Speaker 2>he felt like the most difficult thing about becoming a

0:35:15.080 --> 0:35:19.160
<v Speaker 2>golf course architect was staying small. He said, that's always

0:35:19.320 --> 0:35:21.960
<v Speaker 2>that's the hardest part because in this in this business

0:35:22.040 --> 0:35:24.160
<v Speaker 2>at that time, I was just in college. I had

0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:27.759
<v Speaker 2>no idea what this business was. He says, you've got

0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 2>to say yes to like four or five things in

0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:33.480
<v Speaker 2>order for one or two of them to come true.

0:35:33.560 --> 0:35:35.839
<v Speaker 2>And he said, what happens if all five of them

0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:38.680
<v Speaker 2>come through? Or what happens if none of them come through?

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:43.040
<v Speaker 2>So it's learning how to balance that sort of understanding

0:35:43.080 --> 0:35:47.920
<v Speaker 2>of what's potentially a real project versus what's probably likely

0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:51.360
<v Speaker 2>not going to happen, and how you come to terms

0:35:51.360 --> 0:35:54.000
<v Speaker 2>with that. So I think, you know, people have asked

0:35:54.040 --> 0:35:56.640
<v Speaker 2>me about that sort of assent that we've had, and

0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:00.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, it was a twenty year overnights. I mean,

0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:02.839
<v Speaker 2>Jim and I have worked really hard over a long

0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:06.680
<v Speaker 2>period of time, and I think within the golfing circles,

0:36:06.719 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 2>people knew who we were and people understood that we

0:36:09.120 --> 0:36:11.040
<v Speaker 2>did quality work and we may not be getting the

0:36:11.120 --> 0:36:14.160
<v Speaker 2>sort of marquee jobs, et cetera, but that every job

0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:17.719
<v Speaker 2>we did there was a level of quality attached to

0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.279
<v Speaker 2>that that showed that we knew what we were doing.

0:36:20.280 --> 0:36:24.080
<v Speaker 2>And I think, you know, Boston Golf Club has probably

0:36:24.120 --> 0:36:28.000
<v Speaker 2>been the most important project us ever because we had

0:36:28.040 --> 0:36:30.200
<v Speaker 2>two great owners who gave us a really good piece

0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:34.879
<v Speaker 2>of land to work with. It's you know, I don't

0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:38.160
<v Speaker 2>know the rankings. Is it our highest ranked course maybe

0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:40.600
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, maybe not in some other rankings, but

0:36:42.640 --> 0:36:44.680
<v Speaker 2>it put us in a place where we could be

0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:48.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, we spent time with Brad Faxon, we spent

0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:51.040
<v Speaker 2>time with Seth Wah from Deutsche Bank. We started to

0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.120
<v Speaker 2>sort of rub shoulders with people who were decision makers

0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:57.080
<v Speaker 2>in the game and got to know some people who

0:36:57.400 --> 0:37:01.239
<v Speaker 2>in so Boston Golf Club was well received and recognized,

0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:03.719
<v Speaker 2>and then that got us TPC Boston and then the

0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:06.880
<v Speaker 2>renovation of TPC Boston, working with Brad and actually getting

0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 2>one of our golf courses on TV and that was

0:37:09.600 --> 0:37:11.600
<v Speaker 2>well received and then that was a stepping stone to

0:37:11.640 --> 0:37:14.279
<v Speaker 2>Castle Stewart. And then Castle Stewart was, you know, in

0:37:14.320 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 2>our second golf course in Scotland, and you know, then

0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:19.120
<v Speaker 2>it became a tournament course and on and on and

0:37:19.160 --> 0:37:21.440
<v Speaker 2>on and blah blah blah until we got to the

0:37:21.440 --> 0:37:24.040
<v Speaker 2>point where we got the Olympic course. And then that

0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:27.600
<v Speaker 2>was when sort of everything broke open. But it was

0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:33.000
<v Speaker 2>a slow and steady climb. It wasn't a meteoric rise.

0:37:33.320 --> 0:37:37.000
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't like we were given, you know, the opportunity

0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to build a top two golf course or five golf

0:37:39.640 --> 0:37:41.960
<v Speaker 2>course in the world with our second or third project.

0:37:42.000 --> 0:37:45.839
<v Speaker 2>That just didn't happen. But it was I think a

0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:49.840
<v Speaker 2>testament more to to our belief system, our belief and

0:37:50.000 --> 0:37:51.759
<v Speaker 2>just kind of keeping our heads down and trying to

0:37:51.800 --> 0:37:54.359
<v Speaker 2>do good work and eventually somebody would notice. And then,

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:56.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, with the Olympic Course, people noticed in a

0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:58.879
<v Speaker 2>big way. And then that was right around the same

0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:02.680
<v Speaker 2>time we got Dural and obviously there was a gentleman

0:38:02.719 --> 0:38:05.600
<v Speaker 2>involved there who was not shy about promoting things. So

0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:07.840
<v Speaker 2>we were you know, so we heard an awful we

0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:11.200
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden just turned into this sort of

0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:15.600
<v Speaker 2>bigger name than although that my kids always give me

0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:18.279
<v Speaker 2>a hard time, and my wife Tracy, they make sure

0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:21.600
<v Speaker 2>I stay in line. They always when we went to

0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:25.000
<v Speaker 2>the pitch for the Olympic course, when we did our

0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:29.920
<v Speaker 2>full presentation, we had little name tags in front of us,

0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and so Amy Alcott was helping us, and oh and

0:38:33.440 --> 0:38:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Larkin was our environmental consultant, and we get up to

0:38:36.160 --> 0:38:38.080
<v Speaker 2>give our talk and look down and they've got the

0:38:38.160 --> 0:38:41.440
<v Speaker 2>name cards in front of us. And mine, says Gil Hansen,

0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:45.080
<v Speaker 2>and then it's underneath it, it's this hands golf design

0:38:45.160 --> 0:38:47.400
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, oh my god. They didn't even know

0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:49.600
<v Speaker 2>who my what my name is. And I'm here, you know,

0:38:49.600 --> 0:38:52.320
<v Speaker 2>going up against Jack Nicholas and Tom Doak and Greg

0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Norman and all these top guys and they don't spell

0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:57.279
<v Speaker 2>my name right. So I didn't say anything because I

0:38:57.280 --> 0:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>was afraid somebody might get fired or somebody get yelled at.

0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:04.000
<v Speaker 2>But after we gave our presentation, I just quietly slipped

0:39:04.040 --> 0:39:06.560
<v Speaker 2>that piece of paper out and stuck it in my notebook.

0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:11.400
<v Speaker 2>And so my kids, Chelsea Tyler and Kayley and Tracy

0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:13.320
<v Speaker 2>had it framed and it's hanging in my office. And

0:39:13.360 --> 0:39:16.160
<v Speaker 2>they said, have you ever your head ever gets too big? Remember,

0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:18.840
<v Speaker 2>they didn't even know what your name was when you

0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:20.960
<v Speaker 2>when you went up for the biggest job of your life.

0:39:21.760 --> 0:39:24.120
<v Speaker 1>I heard that you almost didn't even get there.

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:27.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was another story that with the passport thing,

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, I lost my passport. I went but did

0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:37.239
<v Speaker 2>all this work and I'm getting ready to leave and

0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I've got a flight on. I don't know whatever it

0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.000
<v Speaker 2>was with the presentation was on Tuesday morning, and I

0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:45.200
<v Speaker 2>was flying on Sunday night and I couldn't find a passport.

0:39:45.280 --> 0:39:49.080
<v Speaker 2>Turn everything upside down. I'm like in the fetal position,

0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:51.200
<v Speaker 2>crying in the office thing, and this is just there's

0:39:51.520 --> 0:39:55.920
<v Speaker 2>this can't really be happening. And so Tracy, as you

0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 2>know women do, goes into problem solving mode right away,

0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and before I know it, he's got an expedi or

0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:02.920
<v Speaker 2>for a passport on the phone saying, well, you need

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:04.520
<v Speaker 2>to get to New York first thing in the morning.

0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Long story short, I go to New York Monday morning.

0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:11.640
<v Speaker 2>I cancel my flight. I get to get my passport.

0:40:11.719 --> 0:40:15.400
<v Speaker 2>By ten am, my assistant Andrea Lynch is in the

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:17.920
<v Speaker 2>line of the Brazilian consulate trying to get so I

0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:21.120
<v Speaker 2>can run up town, get in line, get a visa

0:40:21.160 --> 0:40:23.040
<v Speaker 2>because you need a visa to go to Brazil. That

0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:25.680
<v Speaker 2>gets done. So now it's like one o'clock in my hands.

0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:29.120
<v Speaker 2>My fate's in the hands of American Airlines. So I

0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:33.840
<v Speaker 2>get literally land, get there at eleven thirty for a

0:40:33.840 --> 0:40:37.680
<v Speaker 2>one o'clock presentation, have a coke and choke down a sandwich,

0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:40.880
<v Speaker 2>and go in to do the presentation. And I mean

0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:42.680
<v Speaker 2>it turned out to be the best thing ever because

0:40:42.680 --> 0:40:44.759
<v Speaker 2>I had no time to be nervous or I could

0:40:44.760 --> 0:40:47.680
<v Speaker 2>barely even think about what the priest was. Just getting

0:40:47.719 --> 0:40:51.000
<v Speaker 2>there was the biggest accomplishment, and so I was kind

0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:54.960
<v Speaker 2>of relaxed, honestly when I finally came time to do it,

0:40:55.000 --> 0:40:57.879
<v Speaker 2>and I thought that the three of us did as

0:40:57.920 --> 0:40:59.480
<v Speaker 2>good as we could. It's one of those things where

0:40:59.480 --> 0:41:02.680
<v Speaker 2>you walk out and go, listen, I could. We couldn't

0:41:02.680 --> 0:41:06.160
<v Speaker 2>have done any better, so you know, you don't. We

0:41:06.320 --> 0:41:08.480
<v Speaker 2>weren't kicking ourselves going oh, we forgot to say that

0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:10.160
<v Speaker 2>or we forgot to do this. It was like, hey,

0:41:10.160 --> 0:41:11.839
<v Speaker 2>that's as good as we can do. If that's good enough,

0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:13.920
<v Speaker 2>then great. If it's not, well, we gave it our

0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:17.560
<v Speaker 2>best shot. But it was. Yeah, it was a harrowing experience.

0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:19.520
<v Speaker 2>And then come to find out I had been in

0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Korea at the end of in December, and I had

0:41:22.960 --> 0:41:26.759
<v Speaker 2>this really nice overcoat that I never wear. You know,

0:41:26.760 --> 0:41:28.719
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'd go out to dinner once or twice, but

0:41:28.800 --> 0:41:30.360
<v Speaker 2>I took a degree of for these meetings because it

0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:33.160
<v Speaker 2>was cold. My passport was in the pocket. So a

0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:36.560
<v Speaker 2>year and a half later, it's Christmas time and we're

0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:38.320
<v Speaker 2>going out to dinner and I put this jacket and

0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:40.080
<v Speaker 2>I haven't worn it in that period of time. I

0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:41.720
<v Speaker 2>reached in the pocket and I was like, you gotta

0:41:41.760 --> 0:41:42.520
<v Speaker 2>be kidding me.

0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:46.879
<v Speaker 3>There it was, I lose stuff all the time like that.

0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:49.719
<v Speaker 1>It's it's awful, Yeah, and then I find it. And

0:41:51.120 --> 0:41:58.440
<v Speaker 1>what working for the IOC and in Brazil, how is that?

0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:02.279
<v Speaker 1>How was that different than working for a country club

0:42:02.320 --> 0:42:04.080
<v Speaker 1>membership versus like a resort.

0:42:05.160 --> 0:42:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, it was an interesting process that when

0:42:09.560 --> 0:42:11.440
<v Speaker 2>the eight of us competed for it, I think we

0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:14.000
<v Speaker 2>were all under the standing, understanding that we would be

0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:18.360
<v Speaker 2>working for See, I thought the IOC was also in

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:21.200
<v Speaker 2>charge of that. But basically the IOC just they picked

0:42:21.200 --> 0:42:23.799
<v Speaker 2>the city and then they show up. During the Olympics,

0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:29.280
<v Speaker 2>each sports, a governing body is responsible for the playing

0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:33.360
<v Speaker 2>field of that sport. So now the Olympic Organizing Committee,

0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:36.080
<v Speaker 2>the host city Rio, they're the ones who have to

0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:40.160
<v Speaker 2>build the stadiums. But basically FIFA approves the soccer field,

0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:46.440
<v Speaker 2>FIBA approves the basketball stadium. IGF the International Golf Federation,

0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:48.800
<v Speaker 2>which is the ruling body of golf in the Olympics,

0:42:48.840 --> 0:42:52.160
<v Speaker 2>they would approve the golf course. So we thought, all right,

0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:55.360
<v Speaker 2>we're working for the IGF and their technical arm was

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.719
<v Speaker 2>the PGA Tour Design Services, guys that I know very well,

0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:01.160
<v Speaker 2>who are great at what they do and very competent.

0:43:01.239 --> 0:43:05.280
<v Speaker 2>And then the REO Organizing Committee, well, it turns out

0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:09.080
<v Speaker 2>that we actually wound up. It was the only public

0:43:09.160 --> 0:43:13.440
<v Speaker 2>private partnership of the Olympic venues, so there was a

0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:16.400
<v Speaker 2>landowner who had the land, so we wound up working

0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:20.120
<v Speaker 2>for them. They knew nothing about golf, really could care

0:43:20.239 --> 0:43:22.880
<v Speaker 2>less about the golf course. It was sort of a

0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:26.440
<v Speaker 2>development strategy for them. And so it got to the

0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:29.400
<v Speaker 2>point where you know, it's been well chronicled. We basically

0:43:29.440 --> 0:43:31.799
<v Speaker 2>spent nine months to close to a year spinning our

0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:34.960
<v Speaker 2>wheels down there, literally getting trucks stuck and not having

0:43:34.960 --> 0:43:41.920
<v Speaker 2>the appropriate equipment, and it just wasn't going well. And

0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:45.600
<v Speaker 2>then finally I think the REO Organizing Committee got the

0:43:45.600 --> 0:43:48.000
<v Speaker 2>word from the IOC Listen, you're in jeopardy of losing

0:43:48.520 --> 0:43:53.200
<v Speaker 2>the entire games. And from that moment forward, I think

0:43:53.200 --> 0:43:55.920
<v Speaker 2>some pressure was applied to the developer and all of

0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.480
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, we had the resources, we had everything in place,

0:43:58.560 --> 0:44:01.480
<v Speaker 2>and it became like a normal golf course project and

0:44:01.520 --> 0:44:04.320
<v Speaker 2>we knocked it out and you know, six or seven months.

0:44:04.320 --> 0:44:08.880
<v Speaker 2>So you know, the guys who were down there, Neil Cameron,

0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:13.960
<v Speaker 2>Ben Hillard, Kyle Franz, and Ben Warren. Ben Warren came

0:44:14.080 --> 0:44:16.000
<v Speaker 2>later on. So those other three guys were there from

0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:19.200
<v Speaker 2>day one and just I mean, I can never thank

0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:21.440
<v Speaker 2>them enough for the work that they did and all

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:23.520
<v Speaker 2>the highs and lows that they went through. It was

0:44:23.560 --> 0:44:28.280
<v Speaker 2>an amazing, amazing project. And you know, there were times

0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:31.160
<v Speaker 2>where it was really like we were going to pull

0:44:31.360 --> 0:44:34.479
<v Speaker 2>we just how can we keep going? But we all did.

0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:37.240
<v Speaker 2>We all just kind of kept pushing in the right direction.

0:44:37.360 --> 0:44:41.240
<v Speaker 2>We all had a commitment to building the best possible

0:44:41.239 --> 0:44:43.279
<v Speaker 2>golf course that we could and trying to do the

0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:45.799
<v Speaker 2>best we could for the game, you know, to give

0:44:45.960 --> 0:44:49.239
<v Speaker 2>a credible venue for golf coming back into the Olympics.

0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.080
<v Speaker 2>And so we kind of felt like there was a

0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:53.600
<v Speaker 2>and I'm trying to be sanctimonious or you know, get

0:44:53.600 --> 0:44:55.480
<v Speaker 2>pats on the back. We just felt like there was

0:44:55.520 --> 0:44:58.600
<v Speaker 2>a higher purpose to do this, and we we just

0:44:58.680 --> 0:45:01.439
<v Speaker 2>toughed it out. And so, like I said, those three

0:45:01.440 --> 0:45:06.160
<v Speaker 2>guys in particular, and yeah, it was it was a

0:45:06.239 --> 0:45:08.440
<v Speaker 2>tough one to get done, but at the end, of

0:45:08.480 --> 0:45:10.839
<v Speaker 2>the day. We're extremely proud of what we built and

0:45:10.880 --> 0:45:14.520
<v Speaker 2>we're really really happy with the way that the tournaments

0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:15.040
<v Speaker 2>turned out.

0:45:15.640 --> 0:45:19.440
<v Speaker 1>The other aspect of that is that is first public

0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:23.160
<v Speaker 1>golf course, and you know, there's very few public golf

0:45:23.160 --> 0:45:27.680
<v Speaker 1>courses in South America. It has the ability to shape

0:45:27.960 --> 0:45:31.040
<v Speaker 1>golf design in an area that public doesn't really get

0:45:31.080 --> 0:45:34.319
<v Speaker 1>to see versus you know, you look at the well

0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:38.759
<v Speaker 1>chronicled troubles of some designs in Southeast Asia, where like

0:45:38.800 --> 0:45:41.439
<v Speaker 1>they got off and when they started getting into golf

0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:44.719
<v Speaker 1>was at what I would consider a dark period of

0:45:44.719 --> 0:45:47.680
<v Speaker 1>golf design, and sure enough those golf a lot of

0:45:47.680 --> 0:45:49.759
<v Speaker 1>those golf courses over there mimic that.

0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:51.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:53.160
<v Speaker 2>And one of the nice things about it. And I

0:45:53.200 --> 0:45:55.359
<v Speaker 2>can't tell you, Andy, how many times people come up

0:45:55.360 --> 0:45:57.359
<v Speaker 2>to me and go, oh, I'm sorry to hear about

0:45:57.360 --> 0:45:59.640
<v Speaker 2>the Olympic course that it's closed, or oh it's you

0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:03.279
<v Speaker 2>know apart. I'm like, no, it's not, it's actually I mean,

0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Kyle Friends was down there, Ben Hillard was down there

0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:08.560
<v Speaker 2>over the winter. They all played the golf course. He

0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:11.319
<v Speaker 2>said it was playing great, that it's maintained well, that

0:46:11.320 --> 0:46:14.279
<v Speaker 2>they're you know, slowly but surely figuring out how to

0:46:14.400 --> 0:46:17.400
<v Speaker 2>manage the golf operation. I mean, the maintenance has been terrific,

0:46:17.440 --> 0:46:19.400
<v Speaker 2>but how do you run a pro shop? How do

0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:21.680
<v Speaker 2>you set up programs? There was a time Kyle was

0:46:21.680 --> 0:46:23.799
<v Speaker 2>telling me that he played golf down there recently and

0:46:24.280 --> 0:46:26.000
<v Speaker 2>there was a junior clinic going on and there were

0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:28.919
<v Speaker 2>tons of kids running around and playing. So it's it's

0:46:28.960 --> 0:46:32.879
<v Speaker 2>been actually a pretty significant success story down there. It's

0:46:33.040 --> 0:46:35.840
<v Speaker 2>I think it's the only Olympic venue still operating and

0:46:35.880 --> 0:46:39.239
<v Speaker 2>still functional, and that just kind of gets lost in

0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:42.439
<v Speaker 2>the shuffle and well, okay, we've moved on from Rio.

0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:46.160
<v Speaker 2>But you're right, I'm we've always felt that if the

0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:49.840
<v Speaker 2>legacy of that golf course is not so much about

0:46:50.160 --> 0:46:52.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, who won the medals or or that competition,

0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:56.239
<v Speaker 2>but it's about, hey, actually, you know what, the game

0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:59.200
<v Speaker 2>of golf grew from Brazil. There's maybe a player twenty

0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:02.840
<v Speaker 2>years from now, ten years from now whose first introduction

0:47:02.880 --> 0:47:06.640
<v Speaker 2>of the game came from there. And hopefully that public

0:47:06.719 --> 0:47:10.520
<v Speaker 2>aspect and getting people to play golf in in Brazil

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:14.520
<v Speaker 2>will be a better story and a better legacy for

0:47:14.560 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 2>that golf course. But I'm I'm happy to say that

0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:20.880
<v Speaker 2>the reports of its demise have been greatly exaggerated, and

0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:23.560
<v Speaker 2>the course is really really moving along nicely.

0:47:24.680 --> 0:47:28.799
<v Speaker 1>What have been some of the growing pains associated with

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:34.120
<v Speaker 1>becoming small to trying to stay small?

0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:39.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, we still are small. I mean we still

0:47:40.120 --> 0:47:42.239
<v Speaker 2>someone's asking me the other day how we operate, and

0:47:42.280 --> 0:47:44.719
<v Speaker 2>we all still operate out of our homes. I mean,

0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:49.120
<v Speaker 2>we have an office in Paoli, Pennsylvania where Mary and

0:47:49.239 --> 0:47:52.279
<v Speaker 2>Paconi runs sort of the day to day operations of

0:47:53.239 --> 0:47:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Hans golf course design. And I'm embarrassed but also slightly

0:47:57.440 --> 0:47:59.400
<v Speaker 2>proud to say I've never stepped foot in that and

0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:02.479
<v Speaker 2>that office because when I'm home, I want to be home,

0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:04.600
<v Speaker 2>and I've got a very nice office in the house

0:48:04.719 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 2>with everything that I need there, and she comes over

0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:09.800
<v Speaker 2>to the house if we've got to go through some things.

0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:12.960
<v Speaker 2>And Jim Wagner works out of his home in West

0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:15.640
<v Speaker 2>Palm Beach, and Kevin Murphy works out of his apartment

0:48:15.640 --> 0:48:17.960
<v Speaker 2>in a story at Queen's and Ben Hillard works out

0:48:18.000 --> 0:48:21.279
<v Speaker 2>of his apartment in Sunnyside, Queen. So I mean we're

0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:24.359
<v Speaker 2>still a very small firm, and and you know we

0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:26.560
<v Speaker 2>have like you said, there's five of us in it

0:48:27.280 --> 0:48:29.239
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we all just pitch in and do

0:48:29.320 --> 0:48:32.759
<v Speaker 2>what we can. And that's something that I don't think

0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:35.680
<v Speaker 2>will ever change, at least I don't ever want it to.

0:48:36.600 --> 0:48:38.000
<v Speaker 2>And that may be a turn off to some people,

0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:40.200
<v Speaker 2>and it certainly was, you know, as part of the

0:48:40.239 --> 0:48:44.040
<v Speaker 2>growing pains of you know, how big a staff do

0:48:44.080 --> 0:48:48.359
<v Speaker 2>you have, how professional an appearance do you want to have?

0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:51.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, if somebody wanted to come to our office,

0:48:51.200 --> 0:48:53.879
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, well maybe we should go. Let's

0:48:53.880 --> 0:48:55.879
<v Speaker 2>go meet at Applebrook. It's of course we designed it's

0:48:55.880 --> 0:48:58.400
<v Speaker 2>five minutes from our house and we can have a

0:48:58.440 --> 0:49:00.959
<v Speaker 2>meeting there, as opposed to you know, well we don't

0:49:01.000 --> 0:49:03.080
<v Speaker 2>really have an office, or do you want to come

0:49:03.120 --> 0:49:07.440
<v Speaker 2>to my house. So that's been it's been part of

0:49:07.760 --> 0:49:09.600
<v Speaker 2>I think part of the success. I mean, Jim and

0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:13.200
<v Speaker 2>I talking awful lot about how it's very relaxed. It's

0:49:13.239 --> 0:49:17.319
<v Speaker 2>a it's a very fluid thing. It's sort of we

0:49:17.480 --> 0:49:19.520
<v Speaker 2>talk once a week if we don't see each other,

0:49:19.600 --> 0:49:21.719
<v Speaker 2>and you know, we're like ships passing at a night.

0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:23.839
<v Speaker 2>If there's two projects on the go, He's at one

0:49:23.880 --> 0:49:26.160
<v Speaker 2>and I'm you know, we just kind of bump into

0:49:26.200 --> 0:49:29.800
<v Speaker 2>each other occasionally. But that's been the chemistry for twenty

0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.960
<v Speaker 2>five years. That's worked for us, and so we're not

0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:38.759
<v Speaker 2>ever trying to impose we don't do AutoCAD. You know,

0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:40.960
<v Speaker 2>I didn't learn I was, I was. I'm too old

0:49:41.000 --> 0:49:43.120
<v Speaker 2>for that and they weren't teaching out a Cornell when

0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I was there. Ben and Kevin know how to do it,

0:49:46.880 --> 0:49:49.640
<v Speaker 2>but it's just not a serve. If a client feels

0:49:49.680 --> 0:49:52.279
<v Speaker 2>that's important, then we you know, we asked we get

0:49:52.320 --> 0:49:54.440
<v Speaker 2>an engineer to do it. So I think we recognize

0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:57.239
<v Speaker 2>what we're not and we're honest about it, and we

0:49:57.280 --> 0:49:59.759
<v Speaker 2>basically say, listen, we're just a bunch of guys that

0:49:59.840 --> 0:50:02.800
<v Speaker 2>like to go out and run bulldozers and create and

0:50:03.239 --> 0:50:07.400
<v Speaker 2>work in the dirt. And if we're not polished, we're not.

0:50:08.400 --> 0:50:10.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, we don't have a lot of fancy brochures

0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:13.799
<v Speaker 2>in office space, et cetera. But we're honest and what

0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:17.279
<v Speaker 2>we produce and that's ultimately what we try to do.

0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:21.120
<v Speaker 3>So you know, that's been.

0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Philosophy from day one and we've been fortunate. You know,

0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:26.240
<v Speaker 2>I had another golf course architect who's a friend who says,

0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:29.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, you've part of what's great about this is

0:50:29.640 --> 0:50:31.400
<v Speaker 2>that you've been able to do it on your terms,

0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:36.319
<v Speaker 2>and you know that's I never thought of it that way,

0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:38.760
<v Speaker 2>but it is kind of cool that we've been able

0:50:38.800 --> 0:50:41.279
<v Speaker 2>to just build this thing slowly over a period of

0:50:41.280 --> 0:50:43.080
<v Speaker 2>time and not have to change who we are. And

0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I think that that was, you know, one of the

0:50:45.200 --> 0:50:47.279
<v Speaker 2>overriding things that Jim and I talked about is we

0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:51.480
<v Speaker 2>got our presentation ready for for Rio is let's not

0:50:51.640 --> 0:50:54.719
<v Speaker 2>change who we are. Let's, you know, whatever level of

0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:57.480
<v Speaker 2>success we've achieved that's allowed us to be part of

0:50:57.520 --> 0:51:00.960
<v Speaker 2>this competition. That's what we've got to focus on. We

0:51:01.000 --> 0:51:03.279
<v Speaker 2>can't just try and all of a sudden change and

0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.839
<v Speaker 2>do bells and whistles and do something different. If it's

0:51:05.840 --> 0:51:09.359
<v Speaker 2>not good enough, if what we believe isn't good enough,

0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:12.279
<v Speaker 2>then we shouldn't build a golf course. We shouldn't try

0:51:12.320 --> 0:51:15.600
<v Speaker 2>to compromise or just curry favor. It's like, let's just

0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:18.160
<v Speaker 2>go in say this is who we are, this is

0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:20.719
<v Speaker 2>how we work, and hopefully you'll like what we have

0:51:20.800 --> 0:51:23.839
<v Speaker 2>to say. And I thought it was an interesting opportunity

0:51:24.040 --> 0:51:26.279
<v Speaker 2>for us to kind of get on a stage where

0:51:26.320 --> 0:51:29.480
<v Speaker 2>we could say this is what we believe golf architecture

0:51:29.960 --> 0:51:35.600
<v Speaker 2>is and and you know, it's thoughtful, it's hopefully asks

0:51:35.640 --> 0:51:38.400
<v Speaker 2>a lot of Mike Clayton, who's a great friend, who's

0:51:38.440 --> 0:51:42.520
<v Speaker 2>a fantastic golf course architect. He always talks about golf

0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:47.880
<v Speaker 2>courses that ask tough questions, but the answers are simple,

0:51:48.000 --> 0:51:51.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, and that I think is a great way

0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:54.759
<v Speaker 2>to describe what we believe in golf. And we're not

0:51:54.800 --> 0:51:57.880
<v Speaker 2>the only ones who think that way, but that's been

0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:02.120
<v Speaker 2>part of that presentation. And you know what we've tried

0:52:02.160 --> 0:52:05.800
<v Speaker 2>to do over these twenty five years of building golf courses.

0:52:05.840 --> 0:52:11.240
<v Speaker 2>So you know, you juggle your time. You know, you

0:52:11.239 --> 0:52:15.040
<v Speaker 2>you as you get busier and as you there are

0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:18.239
<v Speaker 2>so many more demands on your time and you just

0:52:18.320 --> 0:52:21.880
<v Speaker 2>have to be as as gracious as you can in

0:52:21.920 --> 0:52:23.920
<v Speaker 2>saying no. But you have to learn how to say no.

0:52:24.080 --> 0:52:26.279
<v Speaker 2>And that's a difficult thing. At least it is for

0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:29.640
<v Speaker 2>me and I think for Jim as well. But you so,

0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:32.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably the biggest growing pain is figuring

0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:35.719
<v Speaker 2>out how to manage the the request for your time,

0:52:35.800 --> 0:52:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and you're you need to sort of make sure you

0:52:38.920 --> 0:52:41.799
<v Speaker 2>stay focused on what ultimately is the most important thing.

0:52:42.920 --> 0:52:46.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, most most architects, they as they get bigger, they

0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:49.640
<v Speaker 1>do less and less of the shaping work. But you know,

0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:54.200
<v Speaker 1>you still do considerable work on every project. Is you

0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:56.960
<v Speaker 1>think that's the core of your design.

0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's the core of what we enjoy

0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:05.440
<v Speaker 2>about what we do. I'll I'll often say in board

0:53:05.480 --> 0:53:09.720
<v Speaker 2>meetings or committee meetings at clubs or with owners, say, listen,

0:53:10.400 --> 0:53:12.520
<v Speaker 2>I come to these meetings in order to support my

0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:16.160
<v Speaker 2>bulldozer habit. And that's really what I think about it is.

0:53:16.680 --> 0:53:18.279
<v Speaker 2>You know, you have to do these things, and I

0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:20.520
<v Speaker 2>don't mind doing them. I understand it's part of what

0:53:20.560 --> 0:53:23.000
<v Speaker 2>we do in order to get to the point where

0:53:23.000 --> 0:53:25.000
<v Speaker 2>you can actually be in the field and be on

0:53:25.080 --> 0:53:27.839
<v Speaker 2>a machine. And you know, as long as my back

0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:31.480
<v Speaker 2>holds up and my health is good, I want to

0:53:31.480 --> 0:53:34.120
<v Speaker 2>continue doing this as long as I can. And Jim

0:53:34.160 --> 0:53:37.120
<v Speaker 2>and I have said, you know, if if we get

0:53:37.120 --> 0:53:40.120
<v Speaker 2>to a point where we can't get on the machinery

0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.480
<v Speaker 2>because we're pulled in too many directions, then we've lost

0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:47.279
<v Speaker 2>the battle. Then we've we've sold out. You know, we've

0:53:47.280 --> 0:53:50.240
<v Speaker 2>gotten to the point where we've valued other things above

0:53:50.320 --> 0:53:55.080
<v Speaker 2>the work. And you know, we built a hoopy match

0:53:55.120 --> 0:53:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Club and I was on site for ninety plus days.

0:53:57.880 --> 0:54:00.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be on site here at Pinhurst on

0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:03.920
<v Speaker 2>the course number four for close to fifty to fifty

0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:06.560
<v Speaker 2>five days and same extreams on Black Was, you know,

0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:09.200
<v Speaker 2>seventy eighty days. So I mean we're we're still putting

0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:10.799
<v Speaker 2>the time in on our projects.

0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:12.479
<v Speaker 3>And you know.

0:54:12.440 --> 0:54:15.479
<v Speaker 2>So we haven't lost the code. As our good friend

0:54:15.520 --> 0:54:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Mark Parson and who was cod designer at Castle Stewart,

0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:20.759
<v Speaker 2>he would always say, we can't lose the code. We

0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:22.759
<v Speaker 2>can't lose the code. And so I don't think we've

0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:23.720
<v Speaker 2>lost the code yet.

0:54:24.120 --> 0:54:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Why do golf course architects never retire.

0:54:27.880 --> 0:54:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully because they love what they do. I mean I

0:54:32.040 --> 0:54:34.160
<v Speaker 2>was talking to Tracy when I was over in Thailand

0:54:34.160 --> 0:54:36.040
<v Speaker 2>and I said, yeah, this is the most difficult site

0:54:36.080 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 2>we've ever been on, but I can't help but be

0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:43.279
<v Speaker 2>excited about it. It's like, I love what I do.

0:54:44.440 --> 0:54:46.799
<v Speaker 2>I can't think of wanting to do anything else. And

0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.640
<v Speaker 2>people ask me, and it's probably said commentary on my life,

0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:52.240
<v Speaker 2>but you know, aside from my family, which is obviously

0:54:52.280 --> 0:54:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the most important thing to me, you know, it's like, well,

0:54:54.239 --> 0:54:55.000
<v Speaker 2>what else do you do?

0:54:55.040 --> 0:54:55.440
<v Speaker 3>What do you do?

0:54:55.520 --> 0:54:58.080
<v Speaker 2>For hobbies, and I'm like, well, I play golf. Well yeah,

0:54:58.080 --> 0:55:02.759
<v Speaker 2>well what else I work? I really like working. I mean,

0:55:03.280 --> 0:55:05.680
<v Speaker 2>my work is fun. It's something that you know, I

0:55:05.719 --> 0:55:07.920
<v Speaker 2>look forward to every day. When I get up, it's like,

0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:10.600
<v Speaker 2>all right, what can we do today? You know, we

0:55:10.600 --> 0:55:13.640
<v Speaker 2>were talking yesterday out on of course number four about

0:55:13.719 --> 0:55:17.400
<v Speaker 2>sort of a bunker sequence on a fairway, and I

0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:19.680
<v Speaker 2>came I was sitting up last night thinking about it.

0:55:19.719 --> 0:55:21.799
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, I got an idea. The first

0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:24.200
<v Speaker 2>thing in the morning, Ben and Seamus and I are

0:55:24.239 --> 0:55:26.640
<v Speaker 2>out there with Brandon, We're walking around, We're like, well

0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:27.200
<v Speaker 2>what about this?

0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Here's this.

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:29.520
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking about this last night. Oh yeah, great?

0:55:29.520 --> 0:55:31.560
<v Speaker 2>And then well what if we twist and all of

0:55:31.600 --> 0:55:34.960
<v Speaker 2>a sudden, there's just this. The juices are flowing, and

0:55:35.000 --> 0:55:37.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're barely one cup of coffee into the day,

0:55:37.280 --> 0:55:40.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's just that's what you live for, that's what

0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:44.479
<v Speaker 2>you live to do. And so I hope other golf

0:55:44.520 --> 0:55:46.759
<v Speaker 2>course architects feel the same way that I do, and

0:55:46.800 --> 0:55:50.280
<v Speaker 2>I think that that's probably why why they rarely retire.

0:55:52.080 --> 0:55:54.600
<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to the fried Egg podcast.

0:55:55.040 --> 0:56:00.000
<v Speaker 2>We do the digging for you