1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: That's exactly the kind of weaponization of charisma that makes 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: me extremely uncomfortable. In fact, I need to go take 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: a shower right now. 4 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: Can you hold. 5 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 3: No, we can't wait for you to take We're gonna 6 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 3: have to go with you into the shower. I'm afraid 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 3: it's just the rules. That's also very creepy. All right, 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: Welcome to Snafu, your favorite podcast about history's greatest screw 9 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 3: ups and a little bit of reflection about what those 10 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: screw ups say about us as human beings. Spoiler alert, 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 3: most of it's not good. Most of the podcast is 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 3: very good. What it says about us not so good. 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 3: I'm at Helms, your host, and today I am joined 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 3: by someone I've gotten to know over the past several years, 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 3: mostly through a delightful pattern of us helping each other 16 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 3: out with our book events, and last spring he even 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 3: hosted me at Wharton and Philly to talk about my 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 3: Snafu book, which I think makes me a visiting scholar 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 3: at Wharton. Don't fact check that he's also best selling author, 20 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 3: a tenured professor at the Wharton School of Business, an 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 3: organizational psychologist, and truly one of the most thoughtful, perceptive 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 3: voices on human behavior and culture. His latest book, Hidden Potential, 23 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: The Science of Achieving Greater Things, debuted as a New 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: York Times bestseller, which, by the way, is his sixth 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 3: book to do so. I believe he is the wise, witty, 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 3: and dangerously insightful Adam Grant. Adam, thanks so much for 27 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: being here. 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: Wow, that's quite an introduction. I feel like if I fail, 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: I'll be living up to the podcast, but not my bio. 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 3: I gotta ask the work you do falls under this 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 3: rubric organizational psychology, which to me like I I feel 32 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 3: like I have a sense of what you do, but 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 3: that term is still kind of cryptic to me. How 34 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 3: do you define it exactly? 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: Like? 36 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 3: What is your area of expertise? Exactly? 37 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm here to figure out why your closet is 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: a mess and then clean it up. No, I think 39 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: the easiest way to describe what I do is I 40 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: study how to make work not suck. 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 3: And do you have a pithy answer? Is it just 42 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: pay people more? 43 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: I try to reform the Michael Scott's of the world. 44 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: That's one I can I get. I can latch onto that. 45 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 3: In your capacity as a business school professor, it's about 46 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: sort of just deconstructing why and how people behave in 47 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 3: good or bad ways? I guess is that fair? 48 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 2: Well? 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: Put, that's what I should have said. Okay, good, thanks 50 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: for writing my lines for me. 51 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: Ed Well, I also just copyrighted that so so I 52 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: can't use it. You can, but you just have to 53 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 3: pay me, that's all. 54 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 55 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: I should start by saying, I think you're the perfect 56 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 3: guest for today's story because we're going to talk about scams, 57 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: and it strikes me that your training and research and 58 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 3: expertise in human behavior and psychology. Would that make you 59 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 3: bulletproof from scams? 60 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: No, it just makes me better at analyzing why I 61 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: fell for them. 62 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 3: Okay, it makes you more arrogant as you walk right 63 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: into them. 64 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 2: I'm immune to this. This will never affect me. 65 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: And then oh, I have the language and the evidence 66 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: to explain exactly where I just made it. 67 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 2: Yes. 68 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 3: Wait, so have you ever? Have you fallen for any 69 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: scams You've been taken in in some way? 70 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: I don't think I've fallen for a major scam like 71 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: those Nigerian prints emails or a Ponzi scheme, but I've 72 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: definitely been duped by people who take advantage of my 73 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: tendency to trust other people. So sure I overpaid for 74 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: my first car, did not realize it was possible to 75 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: negotiate my first job offer. I don't know if those 76 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: are scams, but I definitely got the short end of 77 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: the stick in those situations. 78 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 3: I feel like some of that that stuff kind of 79 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 3: rides into scammy territory. Like I agree with you, I 80 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 3: feel pretty vigilant about this kind of thing in general. 81 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 3: But I had a plumber up sell me on this 82 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: huge water filter system, and like I had hired him 83 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 3: to do this thing, and then he was like, by 84 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: the way, you don't have a water filter in your house, 85 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: and if you thought about it in your neighborhood, you 86 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 3: should have it. I was like, yeah, okay, great, and 87 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 3: then I wound up having to hire another plumber like 88 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 3: six months later for a different little job, and he 89 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 3: immediately launches into his water filter speech, and I was like, 90 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 3: oh God, and I felt like kind of a sucker. 91 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: I don't know. And also, as I'm ADHD, and I 92 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 3: feel like there's so much out there that sort of 93 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 3: tries to prey upon the ADHD mind in a way 94 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 3: that's like supposed to help an ADHD person. 95 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: So interesting. 96 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: I never connected this to neurodivergence before, but yeah, I 97 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,039 Speaker 1: can see the shiny object sort of put it in 98 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: front of you. 99 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: Oh I want one of those. 100 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, it's targeting your shame. It's like the thing 101 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 3: that has brought you this like sense of discomfort or 102 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: shame or sort of fear in the world. And they're 103 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 3: saying like, here's a like this app will fix it 104 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: for you or this whatever. 105 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: Well, I feel like this is the appropriate time to 106 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 1: tell you about the productivity app that I've been building. 107 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 3: I would trust you. Today's story is about a man 108 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 3: whose legacy is so shady that practically every major grift 109 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: of the last century bears his actual name. And yes, 110 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 3: we're talking about the patron saint of financial flim flam 111 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 3: ladies and gentlemen, the one and only Charles Ponzi. So 112 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 3: buckle up. We're going to dive into sort of the 113 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: origin of the Ponzi scheme and it is. It all 114 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 3: starts with this guy, Charles Ponzi born in eighteen eighty 115 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: two in Lugo, Italy as Carlo Pietro, Giovanni Guglielmo Tebaldo 116 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 3: Ponzi and that's that's a lot of name right there. 117 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 3: They're not messing around with that. His family had once 118 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 3: been comfortable, but by the time he was in college 119 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 3: at the University of Rome, they were not so well off. 120 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 3: Instead of studying, the young Ponzi spent most of his 121 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 3: time schmoozing with his rich friends in cafes and drawing 122 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 3: down with little cash he had. Upon graduation. Broken restless, 123 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 3: he did what generations of dreamers have done. He bet 124 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: on America, and so off he went, landing in Boston 125 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 3: in nineteen oh three. After a few years bouncing between 126 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 3: odd jobs, he drifted north to Canada, and that, as 127 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 3: it turned out, is where his real financial education would begin. Now, Adam, 128 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 3: people who knew Ponzi just described him as unbelievably charismatic, 129 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 3: like he's the kind of guy who could charm the 130 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 3: paint off a wall. And I feel like we've all 131 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: known these people and they can really cast the spell 132 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: on us. So I'm just curious, like, from your vantage point, 133 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 3: how do you see that level of charisma? Is it 134 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: in an innate wiring or is it conditioning, or is 135 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: it something we can sort of learn. I would imagine 136 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 3: in a business school. Charisma is an extremely hot commodity. 137 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: It can be so it is, it being a mix 138 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: like everything else in human psychology of nurture and nature. 139 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: Some people are born more naturally charismatic than others. They 140 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: exude energy and enthusiasm, and they're very quick on their 141 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: feet and flattering, and they often have superficial charm. But 142 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: it does turn out to be a teachable skill. Wherever 143 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: you start, you can improve from that baseline. Actually, it's 144 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,679 Speaker 1: some experiments by John Antinachus and colleagues where they take 145 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: students and they teach them kind of the memes of charisma. 146 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: They you know, they teach them to like to use 147 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: the right vocal inflection and to make eye contact at 148 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: critical moments, and you know, to master the nonverbal cues 149 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: in terms of their gestures. And then they show that 150 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: even six weeks later, when those students are giving a speech, 151 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: they're judged is more charismatic. 152 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: And huh. 153 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: I'd become more and more reluctant to teach that skill because, 154 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: as I think your description of ponzi is foreshadowing, it 155 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: can be used for evil as well as good, and 156 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: even if the intentions of the person wielding it are good. 157 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 1: It tends to shut down the critical thinking of the audience. 158 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: There's a paper on the awestruck effect that I loved 159 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: showing that if if you're talking to somebody who's charismatic, 160 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: you actually scrutinize their message less carefully. And so I 161 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: like to think of that as the dumbstruck afact, and 162 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: I think we should all be cautious about that. 163 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 3: Wow, that is fascinating. 164 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I've look when we were talking earlier about 165 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: have I ever been scammed? Like, the closest I've been 166 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: scammed is kind of falling, falling for the spell of 167 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: somebody who's very charismatic. Sure, and I think the best 168 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: defense against that spell is not to interact with somebody directly. 169 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: It's to read their writing, because then you strip away 170 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: a lot of the you know, a lot of the 171 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 1: kind of the irrelevant information that they might use to 172 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: seduce you. And frankly, AI tools that made that much 173 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: more difficult now. But I almost only want to teach 174 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: charisma to people who have already demonstrated generosity, humility, integrity, 175 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: the basic foundations of character. 176 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 3: Wow, that's really cool. I have to say, if we 177 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 3: could teach those people to be the most charismatic, then 178 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 3: we might have hope for humanity. There was that famous 179 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: Neil Strauss right The Game. The Game, which was essentially 180 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: a version of this right, a kind of teaching of 181 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 3: teaching people to like pick up women was a a 182 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 3: very sort of skeazy version of charisma, I guess. 183 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: A twisted version of it, where you wear odd clothes 184 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: like goggles on your head to signal I'm above worrying 185 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: about what other people think of me. 186 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 2: I set my own trends. I'm a nonconformist. 187 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: And then you go and insult women because it suggests 188 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,079 Speaker 1: that you're out of their league, and then all of 189 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: a sudden, they, in some cases seem to take an 190 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: interest in you. And that's exactly the kind of weaponization 191 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: of charisma that makes me extremely uncomfortable. In fact, I 192 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: need to go take a shower right now, can you hold. 193 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 3: No, We can't wait for you to think we're gonna 194 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 3: have to go with you into the shower. I'm afraid 195 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 3: it's just the rules. That's also very creepy. So in 196 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 3: nineteen oh seven, Ponzi landed in Montreal and scored a 197 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 3: job as an assistant teller at a small bank serving 198 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: Italian immigrants, and it was there that he witnessed the 199 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 3: original model of the scam he would later perfect. His boss, 200 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 3: Luigi Zorosi, lured depositors with absurdly generous interest rates, and 201 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 3: amazingly he would pay them, of course, by funneling new 202 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: deposits straight to the earlier investors. It was a beautifully 203 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 3: unsustainable system. So when the bank inevitably crashed and Zorosi 204 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: bolted for Mexico to avoid accountability, Ponzi was left behind, 205 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 3: unemployed but newly educated in the fine art of financial 206 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: tom foolery. Now most of us would look at this 207 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 3: whole mess and think, okay, well that backfired. Maybe crime 208 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: doesn't pay. What can you tell us about the psychology 209 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 3: of someone who definitely does not learn that lesson, in 210 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: fact sort of learns the opposite lesson of like here's 211 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: more opportunity. I mean, do you see like sociopathy at 212 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: play or is it just sort of that healthy or 213 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: or maybe unhealthy ego with a kind of rules don't 214 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 3: apply swagger. I mean, how dark is that? 215 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: So there are three traits that would normally predict being 216 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: attracted to that kind of that kind of scheme and 217 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: The psychologists call them the dark Triad, and you hit 218 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: on one of them pretty closely. Anyway, they're being a narcissist, 219 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: being Machiavelian, and being a psychopath. H And I think 220 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: we're probably talking about Machiamelianism here more than we are 221 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: being a narcissist or a psychopath or sociopath, because what 222 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: this kind of scheme is really about is it's about 223 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: manipulating other people and using them for personal gain. And 224 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: you don't have to have a giant inflated ego to 225 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: want to do that. You don't have to feel no 226 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: empathy for other people. You just have to be a 227 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: little bit callous around, feeling like, you know what, I 228 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: can use other people a little bit. And in fact, 229 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: I think part of the appeal of a Ponzi scheme 230 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: is you look at that and you say, well, you know, 231 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: if I can keep it going, actually I'm going to 232 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: profit and no one else is going to get hurt 233 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: because each like each each former investor is going to 234 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: get their money back because of a new one. And 235 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 1: so all I have to do is perpetuate it. And 236 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just I'm exploiting a loophole in the system. 237 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm not exploiting people so much. And I think if 238 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: you tell yourself that story, you probably sleep at night. 239 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: And it doesn't it doesn't require much more than a 240 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: little bit of machiavellianism. 241 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: Now we're still in Montreal. Ponzi happened to wander into 242 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 3: a one of the former client's office from the failed 243 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: bank he had been working at, and he found it 244 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 3: completely unattended peak early nineteen hundred's security at work. He 245 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: poked around, spotted an unguarded check book and thought, well, 246 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 3: no mind of ad and he wrote himself a check 247 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 3: for four hundred and twenty three dollars and fifty eight cents, 248 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 3: which I love the specificity because that seems so official. 249 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 3: That's like such an amount, right, it seems like something 250 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 3: that would be like, oh, that's a no, one would 251 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 3: just make up that number. But that's a lot of money. 252 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 3: It's worth about fifteen grand in today's money. So he 253 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 3: forged the manager's signature and he strolled out just like 254 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: he'd been picking up dry cleaning. He was caught almost 255 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: instantly because he spent this dolen money so loudly that 256 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: Montreal police were basically like, how is this broke guy 257 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 3: suddenly like flashing wads of money and eating in fancy restaurants. 258 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 3: So Ponzi was arrested and he spent the next three 259 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 3: years in a bleak penitentiary outside of Montreal. Not a 260 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 3: great return on investment so far. Here's a mug shot 261 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: from nineteen ten. Let's take a look. I mean, how 262 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: do you not love this guy? Look at the twinkle 263 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 3: in his eye and the mustache. This is a mug 264 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 3: shot and he looks like someone I want to just 265 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: have a beer with. 266 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: I will not be joining you for that vier ed there, 267 00:14:59,080 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 2: tell me about. 268 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 3: His smirk under that mustache. That's like it's got a 269 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: little charmed to it. Yes, wedding. 270 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: He sort of reminds me of mister Bean. Mister Bean, 271 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: he could be Rowan Atkinson in love. 272 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 2: Actually, there you go. That's what I'm seeing. 273 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 3: That's not as flattering a the piction. Now this part 274 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: kills me. Rather than tell his mother that he was 275 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: in prison, Bonzi wrote home to Italy, proudly announcing he'd 276 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 3: landed a job as a special assistant to the warden, 277 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 3: thus explaining his the letters coming from a prison. I 278 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 3: think we all lie to our parents, right just to 279 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 3: kind of make ourselves feel better or look good in 280 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 3: a situation. Any memorial occasions. Memorable occasions, Yeah, Adam Grant 281 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 3: lying to mom or Dad. 282 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: Oh, I told a white lie to my mom after 283 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: Halloween one year, that I didn't sneak candy with a 284 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: friend from the candy drawer. 285 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 3: That's as bad as it gets. 286 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 2: It's the worst one. I felt so much shame after that. 287 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 2: Never again. 288 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny these formative things like at that moment, 289 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: how old were you? You were young enough that the 290 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 3: steaks felt catastrophic. 291 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: I think I was ten, and the friend started it, 292 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: and then the drawer was open, and I felt like, okay. 293 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, go for it. 294 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: I remember my friend took like, stole a pack of 295 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 3: his mom's cigarettes and we were I think I was 296 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: about ten, and and he was like, let's smoke a cigarette. 297 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: And I was like, are you insane? This is crazy. 298 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 3: We can't smoke. Say, we're children. Cigarettes and candy the 299 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 3: things that get us in trouble as children. Okay. Charles 300 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 3: gets out of prison and he heads back down to Boston, 301 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 3: and this is where he would hatch the truly epic 302 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: scam that would make him a legend, and it all 303 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 3: began with a quirky little nugget of postal Beueru incracy 304 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 3: known as the International Reply coupon. This was basically a 305 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: prepaid postage voucher, so you'd buy one at your local 306 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 3: post office, stick it in your letter to someone overseas, 307 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 3: and then they could exchange it in their country For 308 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 3: these stamps needed to write you back, so it was 309 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 3: kind of like putting a prepaid envelope in your letter 310 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 3: to someone so that they could write you back more easily. 311 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 3: Here's where things got interesting. The system was created in 312 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: nineteen oh six with fixed exchange rates, but after World 313 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: War One those rates went completely out of whack across Europe. 314 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 3: So cut to nineteen nineteen. Ponzi received a reply coupon 315 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: from Spain which had been purchased for about one cent 316 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: in Spain, but it was redeemable for six cents worth 317 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 3: of US stamps, and that tiny arbitrage flicked a switch 318 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 3: in Ponzi's brain, so he launches a company to buy 319 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 3: reply coupons in bulk overseas, send them back here to America, 320 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: and then redeem them for a tidy prophet. Not a 321 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: bad idea. But then comes the big leap. Ponzi scales 322 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: up like bigle He invites investors, promising and eye popping 323 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 3: fifty percent return in forty five days. Bostonians are flocking 324 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: to him, and soon he has started a company called 325 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: the Securities Exchange Company, which has a very sophisticated and 326 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 3: legit ring to it, and he had offices stretching from 327 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,719 Speaker 3: Maine to New York. Now it's worth pointing out that 328 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 3: this business model was definitely cheeky, but it was not illegal. 329 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 3: Investors were getting paid as promised. In fact, and this 330 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 3: is very wild. A few government officials who went poking 331 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 3: around to verify the legitimacy of Ponzi's operations actually ended 332 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 3: up investing with him. For a while there, everything was 333 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: coming up Ponzi. You know, he's got all this newfound 334 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 3: wealth and in a tasteful new mansion with enough room 335 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 3: for his wife Rose and his mother, who he brought 336 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 3: over from Italy. I mean, come on, this guy's what 337 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 3: a gentleman. He's taking care of his own mother. But 338 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 3: Ponzi's projected squeaky clean, charitable image was not going to last. 339 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 3: What's happening behind the scenes is actually getting pretty shady, 340 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 3: and even the pros who are coming to investigate him 341 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 3: are missing the signs. So I'm just curious, like from 342 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: your Wharton perspective, like, what are the red flags that 343 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 3: you can actually you know, like you talked about the 344 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 3: what was it the triangle of the dark triad? The 345 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: dark triad? Excuse me, but those are things that might 346 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 3: exist in someone that we can't immediately perceive. So what 347 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: are red flags that we might jump out at us 348 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 3: when somebody might be perpetrating a scam apart from the obvious, 349 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 3: like you know, mustache twirling, et cetera. 350 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the best data on this actually are hedge fund 351 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: managers being interviewed, where you see that the most self 352 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: centered ones, the ones who are most likely to take 353 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 1: advantage of other people, are the ones who just spontaneously 354 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: start grinning when talking about other people failing. 355 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: And if you feel. 356 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: That kind of shot in freuda and you enjoy seeing 357 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: other people flop in your language, ed, if like seeing 358 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: somebody else's snafu makes your day, that is I mean 359 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: that to me is a huge red flag. 360 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 3: Wow, yeah, that feels that feels like pretty much everyone 361 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 3: we see on the news these days. There's just like 362 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 3: gloating is a real problem right now, gloating, which is 363 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 3: essentially sort of like the what it's like the bragging response, 364 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 3: the bragging articulation of schadenfreude. 365 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then there's a there's a cousin of that 366 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: in some ways moral grandstanding, you know, kind of like 367 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: sort of self promoting as just morally superior to other people, 368 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: which tends to go hand in hand with narcissism, and 369 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: I think we also see a lot of that today 370 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: in scammers. If you believe that you operate a higher 371 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: moral plane than other people, then it's very easy to 372 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: justify and rationalize what you're doing. 373 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 3: Eventually, Ponzi's activity caught the canny eye of New York 374 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 3: City Postmaster Thomas G. Patton, now, being a master of 375 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 3: the post patent, knew a thing or two about international 376 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 3: reply coupons, like, for instance, there simply weren't enough in 377 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: circulation to explain the magnitude of Ponzi's outrageous earnings. So 378 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: it just like his business model was completely incompatible with 379 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 3: the amount of money he was making objectively, just by 380 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: the math. Patten wasn't the only one to notice funny 381 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 3: math here. It seems one of the business secrets Ponzi 382 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: kept closely guarded was that he was not buying many 383 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 3: reply coupons at all. Rather, to maintain the illusion of 384 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:21,439 Speaker 3: abundant prosperity, Ponzi was using deposits from new investors to 385 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 3: pay out the returns to old investors. And there you 386 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 3: have it, the classic Ponzi scheme. Adam. What blows my 387 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 3: mind is that the Ponzi scheme isn't just risky, it 388 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 3: is literally impossible to sustain. Like it's a financial Jenga 389 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: tower and it's definitely going to fall over. Why do 390 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 3: smart people convince themselves that somehow it won't. 391 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: I think that there are a couple of ways to 392 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: explain this. One is, you know, it's just a sort 393 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: of tunnel vision, right, You're only focusing on getting the 394 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: next investor on board, and you're not looking far enough 395 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: into the future or maybe wide enough to see that 396 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: somebody is about to come and knock over your Jenka tower, 397 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: or if even one block it gets pulled out, you're screwed. 398 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: I think that's that maybe one one factor I play it. 399 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: I think another one that that stands out though, that 400 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 1: we don't talk about enough is what psychologists call the 401 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: availability biased, which is the tendency to weigh events in 402 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: terms of how easy they are to think of instead 403 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: of how likely they are. And if you've never seen 404 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 1: somebody go down for a Ponzi scheme, you can persuade yourself, 405 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,159 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna get caught. You know this, like this 406 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: is not even something people go to jail for, right, 407 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 1: But it's it's especially surprising in Ponzi's case because he's 408 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: already done time. 409 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's paid for it. Well, he paid for a 410 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: false check. But his his previous boss was was, you know, 411 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 3: caught for it. 412 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wonder, I wonder if then he saw 413 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: his boss make some really odd, obvious mistakes and thought, well, 414 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: if I avoid those, I'm clear. 415 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 3: You know, to your point about sort of the dark 416 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 3: side of charisma, Sometimes I think there are people who 417 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 3: believe they can charm their way out of anything, right, 418 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 3: or or charm or sort of bulldoze, like they can 419 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 3: rely on their personalities to just plow through anything. I 420 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 3: don't know, there's something unhinged about that, and the ability 421 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 3: to kind of keep going and doubling down further and further. 422 00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: I mean, he was opening branch offices up and down 423 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 3: the East coast, like just scaling up in this massive way, 424 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 3: and then eventually just not even buying the coupons anymore. 425 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 3: Just fully Ponzi scheming. If I were trying to run 426 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: a Ponzi scheme, the guilt would be weighing on me 427 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: so much. I just be this sweaty, blubbering mess the 428 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 3: whole time. But then you have someone like Ponzi who 429 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 3: just like smiles and shakes your hand and can just 430 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 3: look you in the eye and crank through all of it. 431 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: It's so bewildering to me. 432 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: Well, I just think you just hit on something really 433 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: critical here, which is we often describe someone like Ponzi 434 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: as shameless, but I think they're better characterized as guiltless. 435 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: Being guiltless is I don't even know if I've ever 436 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: heard the term guiltless. But when you said I would 437 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: feel guilty, I think about the psychology of guilt versus shame, 438 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: and the basic distinction is when people feel guilt, they 439 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: think I did a bad thing. When they feel shame, 440 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: they think I'm a bad person. And shame actually tends 441 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: to have pretty negative effects in most cultures, you know, 442 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: when you start to feel ashamed, you either attack or 443 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: you withdraw. Together, you feel small and you either want 444 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: to obliterate whoever's making you feel small or you want 445 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: to withdraw from the situation. Guilt is much more functional. 446 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: When you feel guilty, you think, Okay, I've got to 447 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: right my wrongs. I have to repair whatever harm was done. 448 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: I have to try to recover my reputation. And Ponzi 449 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: sounds like somebody who just was maybe immune to guilt, 450 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,000 Speaker 1: or you know, at least didn't have a normal human 451 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: response to it, because from the pattern of behavior you're describing, 452 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like he really felt any remorse around the 453 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: people that he was screwing over. 454 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 3: But isn't that like, isn't that the definition of a 455 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 3: sociopath or a psychopath. 456 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: It's certainly one of the foundations of it, right, I 457 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: think I think it's possible to be guilt free without 458 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: being a sociopath. Basically, I think most sociopaths would be guiltless, 459 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: but not all guiltless people are sociopaths. 460 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 2: Would be maybe the way to capture it. 461 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: Maybe he has convinced himself that he's taking care of 462 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: each investor as he brings on the next investor, and 463 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: so the you know, whatever guilt he feels ends up 464 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 1: quickly evaporating. 465 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 3: And also there there you get so much reinforcement as 466 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: your sort of as your wealth increases, so does your 467 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 3: position in society and your you know, your physical presentation, 468 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 3: your clothes, your style, your cars, all these things these 469 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 3: sort of signals of success just being a successful human. 470 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: You know, you're well groomed, all these things, these sort 471 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 3: of like ancillary, uh, just details of your life start 472 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 3: to have this like resonant vibration of like you're fantastic, 473 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 3: You're just a great person. Yeah, and you can kind 474 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 3: of convince yourself of that. 475 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's validating. 476 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: And you also have all these clients who love you, 477 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: your your investors, they're so pleased with you, like they're 478 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: actually they're fueling your narrative. They're making the rationalization easier. Wow, 479 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 1: look at all these people I've helped. Yeah, that tracks 480 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: all right. 481 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 3: So the suspicions that Ponzi's business were fraudulent were eventually 482 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 3: confirmed with a damning expose that ran in The Boston 483 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: Post on August second, nineteen twenty penn by Ponzi's own 484 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 3: publicity man William H. McMasters. In the multi page spread, 485 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 3: McMasters condemned Ponzi as hopelessly insolvent and fest up to 486 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 3: his own contribution to Ponz's confidence campaign. Definitely kind of 487 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: a dick move here, just selling out Ponzi to try 488 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: to get your nose clean, I guess. But here's the thing, McMasters. 489 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 3: He had only worked for Ponzi for one week at 490 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 3: that point, and during that one week, McMasters had accompanied 491 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 3: Ponzi to various meetings with his investigators and had been 492 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 3: privy to what he determined to be damning inconsistencies. McMasters 493 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 3: claimed that Ponzi was well over two million dollars in 494 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 3: debt and I haven't done the day calculation on that, but. 495 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: It's a lot. 496 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 3: It's gonna be a lot, millions and millions upon millions. 497 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: It all came crashing down. On August ninth. The Massachusetts 498 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,959 Speaker 3: State Commissioner of Banks, Joseph t Allen, ordered the Hanover 499 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: Trust Company to cease paying out checks signed by Charles Ponzi. 500 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 3: They said the account was overdrawn, but the final nail 501 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 3: in the coffin of Ponzi's reputation came two days later. 502 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 3: On August eleventh, when the Boston Post definitively identified Charles 503 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 3: Ponzi as a former convict and further revealed his past 504 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 3: alias Charles Bianci, under which he had committed all kinds 505 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,959 Speaker 3: of various tom foolery and flim flammery and pick your 506 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 3: period euphemism for a crime, Adam, Is there a kind 507 00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 3: of sense of dissociation that comes from using it alias? 508 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 2: Potentially? 509 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: Yeah? 510 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: I mean you're you're basically trying to separate your identity 511 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: from your actions, and if if you're playing a character, 512 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 1: that becomes really easy to do. 513 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 3: I do use an actual alias, Like in my life 514 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: sometimes if I if I feel like if I'm attending 515 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 3: a scheduled event and I know that autograph seekers might 516 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 3: be there, then I might use an alias for my 517 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 3: hotel reservation or what you know, restaurant reservation or whatever. 518 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 3: And uh, I'm not going to tell you what it. 519 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 2: Is, but tell me. Wait, but I'm going to guess it. 520 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: It's Suprice, isn't it Superrice? 521 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 3: Good? Yes, it's a good. Guess. It's a little too 522 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 3: close to home though. 523 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: Actually, here's to me the most interesting version of this question. 524 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: So you know I watched you during your entire run 525 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: as Andy Bernard. Do you ever take on some of 526 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: Andy's qualities and feel like you know whatever you do? 527 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: If you just came from a long day of shoot 528 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,479 Speaker 1: or a couple of weeks where you were in character 529 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: a lot, do you start to feel some distance from 530 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: Ed Helms? 531 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 3: Like I've often said that Andy Bernard is it is me, 532 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 3: but with less less self control and less of a 533 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: kind of self editing mechanism. So I sort of have 534 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 3: Andy Bernard's similar instincts, which I'm not proud to admit, 535 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 3: but it's true, and I just in Andy. In playing Andy, 536 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 3: I was able to sort of like just exercise all 537 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 3: of those demons and get it all out there. And 538 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,280 Speaker 3: then in the real world I'm a much more sort 539 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 3: of like you know, I just carry myself with more 540 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 3: self awareness and presence or whatever. But if anything, it's 541 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: more the opposite, where playing Andy Bernard makes me realize 542 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 3: that there's more of Andy Bernard in me than I 543 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: want there to be sometimes or then I might care 544 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 3: to admit, and. 545 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: Therefore makes you less like him. It sounds like, what 546 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: do you mean looking in the mirror and saying I 547 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: don't like this reflection? Does that then motivate you to 548 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: overcome whatever those tendencies are. 549 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 3: Yes and no, although I think yes, certainly, I was 550 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 3: able to sort of bring insights that Andy Bernard gave 551 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 3: me into my therapy sessions and unpack things a little bit. 552 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 3: But I'll also say this, which is that I very 553 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 3: consciously tried to endow Andy Bernard with a good heart 554 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 3: and a good and like good intentions and a kind 555 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 3: of an underlying warmth. And I was at times more 556 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 3: or less successful in doing that, But it was my intention, 557 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 3: and I think that actually opened a little window from 558 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 3: additional self compassion for myself. 559 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: I love that. 560 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 3: August twelfth, nineteen twenty, Ponzi was arrested and later charged 561 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 3: in court with eighty six counts of mail fraud. Despite 562 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: thinking he could charm his way out of it, he 563 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 3: pled guilty at his wife's urging and took a five 564 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 3: year sentence. He assumed that plea would shield him from 565 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 3: state charges. It did not. While in federal prison, Massachusetts 566 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 3: hit him with twenty two counts of larceny. He appealed 567 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 3: all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled he 568 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 3: was not immune from state prosecution. It took three trials 569 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 3: for the charges to finally stick. In the first, he 570 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 3: represented himself and walked on ten counts. In the second, 571 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 3: the jury deadlocked, and then the third his luck ran out. 572 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 3: He was convicted and given another seven to nine years. 573 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: Do you think the hubris of representing oneself might have 574 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 3: been his downfall? 575 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: I don't think it did him any favors from what 576 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: I've heard. Yeah, so wild. 577 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 3: September nineteen twenty five, he finished his federal sentence and 578 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 3: was released on bail while appealing his state conviction. And 579 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 3: you know, no lessons learned. He immediately high tailed it 580 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 3: to Florida, where he tried to enact the same essential 581 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 3: scheme selling tiny parcels of swamp land. Scammers just somehow 582 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 3: have this incredible ability not to adapt to negative reinforcement. 583 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,840 Speaker 1: There's a longstanding trend in psychology to talk about the 584 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,520 Speaker 1: bad is stronger than good phenomenon, or it's sometimes called 585 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,040 Speaker 1: negativity bias, where the same bad experience or snafo or 586 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,720 Speaker 1: failure is going to weigh on us much more heavily 587 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: than an equivalent good event or success. And we you know, 588 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot of evolutionary handwaving about this. It's like Okay, 589 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: if you didn't pay attention to the threat in the jungle, 590 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: you literally could not survive to pass on your genes. 591 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: But if you underreacted to a celebratory event, nothing bad happens. 592 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 2: And so we're kind of wired. 593 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,760 Speaker 1: To write to be vigilant in the face of threats. 594 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: But there's obviously variation in the population. We know is 595 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: that the kinds of people who tend to reverse the 596 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: bad is stronger than good pattern and really respond to 597 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: rewards and be extremely optimistic, tend to be highly extroverted 598 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: and low in neuroticism. And actually America is I think 599 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: the most extroverted country on Earth in the national comparisons. 600 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 1: And the argument around that is, well, the the kind 601 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: of tendency you had to have to sail off for 602 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 1: a new land based on the promise of a very 603 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: uncertain upside, like you got to be pretty reward seeking 604 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: and optimistic to do that. And so you know, we 605 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: see a parallel in Ponzi jumping ship literally the US, 606 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: And I wonder, is this somebody who's extraordinarily extroverted, who 607 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,880 Speaker 1: you know, experiences the dopamine rush but not the punishment cues, 608 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: not the sense of threat and fear associated with being 609 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 1: put away, even after he's had to be in jail 610 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: for a couple of years. 611 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of years. He did three years in Montreal, 612 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 3: seven years in Massachusetts. It's adding up. And now he's 613 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 3: caught and charged and found guilty yet again in Florida, 614 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 3: but he gets off on appeal after posting bond, and 615 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 3: this time Ponzi tries to flee the country on a 616 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: ship bound for Italy, but he wound up getting arrested 617 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 3: in New Orleans, where the ship was making a final 618 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 3: port of call. He was returned to Massachusetts to serve 619 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 3: seven more years in prison until his release in nineteen 620 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 3: thirty four, when he was immediately deported to Italy on 621 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 3: October seventh. His wife Rose stayed behind and they eventually 622 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 3: divorced a few years later. Whatever lucky penny he'd been 623 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 3: carrying around for the last decade, it finally fell out 624 00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 3: of his pocket. Charles Ponzi would die in a charity 625 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 3: hospital in Rio de Janeiro, yes, all the way down 626 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 3: in Brazil, on January eighth, nineteen forty nine, with only 627 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 3: just enough to his name to cover his burial. The 628 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 3: dude was just scamming around the world right there, all 629 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 3: the way to the end. 630 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 2: Wow. 631 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 3: And for their dogged pursuit of the Ponzi story and 632 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 3: the investigative journalism that aided in his arrest, the Boston 633 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 3: Post was awarded the nineteen twenty one Pulitzer Prize in 634 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 3: Public Service. And that Adam Grant concludes the story of 635 00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 3: Charles Ponzi. It's quite a whirlwind, you. 636 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: Know, now that I kind of know the ending to 637 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: the story, one thing we haven't talked about yet is addiction. 638 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: I mean, one version of Ponzi's arc is he is 639 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: a gambler. He's chasing the next high every time he loses. No, no, no, 640 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: If I just double down like double or nothing, right, 641 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: I can turn this thing around. And you know, I 642 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: wonder if this was an outlet for a form of 643 00:37:58,680 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: a gambling addiction. 644 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 2: Wow. 645 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 3: That's so that's that's a really interesting. 646 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 2: Chasing the thrill. 647 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,280 Speaker 3: It's so interesting to think about someone like Charles Ponzi 648 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:14,719 Speaker 3: and how they might fit into modern society. Obviously, there 649 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 3: have been so many huge Ponzi schemes, Bernie made Off 650 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 3: being one of the most famous ones. And again and 651 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 3: and there's he's a fascinating study in psychology. Have you 652 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 3: do you know much about his story. 653 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 2: A little bit, not as much as you do history buff. 654 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 3: Well, I I know just enough to know that I 655 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 3: want to know more. But it's Yeah, he's a fascinating figure, 656 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 3: and I think he definitely falls into the category of 657 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 3: the delusion that he wasn't harming people, or at least 658 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 3: that's what people who've interviewed him seem to think. The 659 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 3: scale of his operation. That's what's so mind blowing is 660 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 3: that like the buy in from so many different people, 661 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 3: like the goodness to want, like the desire for this 662 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 3: to be true is and for this all to be 663 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 3: like a functioning, healthy way to make money. It's like 664 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 3: the things we can force ourselves to believe, like he's 665 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 3: the perpetrator, Ponzi or Bernie made off like they're the perpetrators. 666 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 3: They're either deluding themselves or they're just like criminals or 667 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,239 Speaker 3: whatever they're whatever's going on with them. I mean, there's 668 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 3: the investors who are just pure victims. But then there 669 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 3: are people who are in the organization, right, they're in 670 00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,319 Speaker 3: the running of these things, and they have to have 671 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 3: a sense of like this doesn't add up, or it's 672 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,280 Speaker 3: just like I'm gonna keep my head in the sand. 673 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 3: I'm not gonna like this spreadsheet looks weird to me, 674 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 3: but I'm just not gonna ask, because, boy, it feels 675 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 3: good to trust this, like nice old man Bernie, who 676 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,320 Speaker 3: just seems to know who's been venerated by the great 677 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 3: financial institutions. 678 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: For decades, there are terms that have been coined to 679 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 1: describe what happens to a lot of people in the 680 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: orbit of a ponzi or a madeoff BENDERA called it 681 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: moral disengagement. Ten Brunzel and Mesk have called it ethical fading, 682 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: where you just you stop applying a principled lens to 683 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: the situation you're in because other people are accepting it, 684 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: and you assume, well, you know, surely these are not 685 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: bad people. 686 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 2: I see them, you know, the their. 687 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: Decent parents and partners and carrying bosses, and you know 688 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,439 Speaker 1: they couldn't be doing anything bad, and you lose sight 689 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: of the lines that are being crossed. I think that 690 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: that could be part of what's happening in their orbit. 691 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: And maybe the other piece of this is I was 692 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: thinking about Maria Kanakova, a psychologist turned poker champ who 693 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: wrote a book called The Confidence game. And there's a 694 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: quote in that book that shook me. Maria wrote, the 695 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: true con artist doesn't force us to do anything. He 696 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: makes us complicit in our own undoing. 697 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 3: Adam, what are you and I complicit in right now 698 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 3: that we have no idea? Is part of our own doing? 699 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: I really hope nothing. 700 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: But you know, just thinking about what happens to the 701 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 1: early employees, in the early clients, they are to recruit 702 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 1: other people into the scheme. Of course, you you try 703 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: to get your friends hired at this great company. 704 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 2: You try to get your you know, your. 705 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: Family to invest in this you know, this fund with 706 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: incredible returns, and pretty soon you have a strong incentive 707 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 1: to see no evil. 708 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 3: I want to bring this into the present moment a 709 00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 3: little bit. I love digging into this story because of 710 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 3: how hyper relevant it feels today in the age of 711 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 3: Internet scammers and just this sort of like new generation 712 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 3: of con artists that have emerged. I mean, it's it's 713 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 3: funny to think of Charles Ponzi as perhaps now him 714 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 3: being like an Instagram influencer, you know, who's just like 715 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:58,560 Speaker 3: taking people in. But here's just a few stats. The 716 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 3: FBI reported that Americans lost sixteen point six billion dollars 717 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 3: to online scams, which is a thirty three percent increase 718 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 3: from twenty twenty three. Do you think that there is 719 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:16,360 Speaker 3: also a way that sort of the online distance from 720 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 3: a con artist and like us when we're in our 721 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 3: own bubble and we don't have other people to sort 722 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 3: of cross reference with or bounce an idea off of, 723 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 3: does the solitary nature of internet interaction make us additionally 724 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 3: more vulnerable or less vulnerable? Or I mean, does seem 725 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 3: like the Internet is just a cesspool of scam Yeah. 726 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,880 Speaker 1: I would love to see some data on this. I 727 00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: have not seen a good analysis. I think I have 728 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,560 Speaker 1: a similar hunch to yours, which is the isolation can 729 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: make it really easy to fall for a scam. I 730 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: think the other piece of it is you're missing some 731 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: of the cues that would normally you know, sort of 732 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, even if you didn't recognize them consciously. You know, 733 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 1: you interact with a con artist face to face, and 734 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 1: you start to get a gut feeling sometimes like I don't. 735 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 2: Quite trust this person. 736 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400 Speaker 1: I don't know why, but you know, maybe maybe I 737 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: should verify or maybe I should you know, wait a 738 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: little bit, and you're just deprived of a lot of 739 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,800 Speaker 1: those cues over the internet. Sometimes you don't even know 740 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: if it's a human or a bot that's you know, 741 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: that's pitching you. And so I think that that probably 742 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,080 Speaker 1: makes it harder for people to use whatever intuition they 743 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 1: have around judging people's trustworthiness. What's the what's the New 744 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: Yorker cartoon on the internet? No one knows you're a dog? 745 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, Well that's more of a catfish joke. No, 746 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,239 Speaker 3: but I guess it's uh, I guess it works here 747 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,840 Speaker 3: just as well, Adam Grant, This has been really, really 748 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 3: fun and I just love going down these curiosity rabbit 749 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 3: holes with you, and I love that your response to 750 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,400 Speaker 3: my questions it very often starts with I'd like to 751 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 3: see the data on that. Thank you so much for 752 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:12,840 Speaker 3: coming on Snafoo. 753 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 754 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 1: I leave it to your listeners to judge the number 755 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,240 Speaker 1: of snaffooss committed recordinated this podcast. 756 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 3: Snafu is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Snaffo Media, 757 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 3: a partnership between Film Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company. 758 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 3: Post production and creative support from good Egg Audio. Our 759 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,800 Speaker 3: executive producers are me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, 760 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 3: Andy Kim, and Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by 761 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 3: Alyssa Martino and Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. 762 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,560 Speaker 3: Our video editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering 763 00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,359 Speaker 3: from Nick Dooley. Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our 764 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 3: creative executive is Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt 765 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 3: Gosson and the Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, 766 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 3: Meghan Halson and Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, 767 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 3: Adam Horn, Lane Kleine and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but 768 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 3: especially Will Pearson, Kerrie Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I 769 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 3: have you, don't forget to pick up a copy of 770 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 3: my book, Snaffoo, The Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. 771 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 3: It's available now from any book retailer. Just go to 772 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 3: Snaffoo dashbook dot com. Thanks for listening, and see you 773 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:31,160 Speaker 3: next week.