1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: What does it mean for your life to matter? 2 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 2: Is the drive to matter sometimes stronger than the drive 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: to survive? We humans talk a lot about happiness and 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,800 Speaker 2: pleasure and meaning, but what if the real engine underneath 5 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 2: all of it is the need to feel that we count? 6 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: Is it possible that depression and extremism and ambition all 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 2: stem from the same psychological source? When is political polarization 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: less about beliefs and more about threatened significance? Today we're 9 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: going to speak with philosopher and writer Rebecca Goldstein, who 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 2: has written a new book on what matters to people 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: and why and why it's not the same for everyone, 12 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: and why mattering is a fundamental instinct that underlies all 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 2: the others. Welcome to intercouse most with me, David Eagleman. 14 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 2: I'm a neuroscientist and author at Stanford and in these 15 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 2: episodes we sailed deeply into our three pound universe to 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: understand how we experienced. 17 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: The world. 18 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: When I was younger. 19 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: One of the great mentors I got to work with 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: was Francis Crick, who had won the Nobel Prize for 21 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: discovering the structure of DNA. As you may know, in 22 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: the second half of Krick's career, he turned from studying 23 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 2: genetics to studying the brain, and specifically the question of 24 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 2: how the physical stuff of the brain gives rise to consciousness. Now, 25 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: Krick had a chalkboard that was full of ideas and equations, 26 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: but the most striking thing to me was that that 27 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: right in the middle of the board, outlined in a big, 28 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 2: thick rectangle, was a single word. And this word represented 29 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 2: to him one of the central mysteries of biology. 30 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: The word was meaning. 31 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: In other words, he had a better understanding than most 32 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 2: people on the planet of the vast and intricate biology 33 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: that makes up the human brain. But he recognized that 34 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 2: one of the key questions was why does anything matter 35 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: to your brain? You can look at the visual system 36 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 2: and you can come to understand how photons hit the 37 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: retina and the signals move to the visual cortex in 38 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: the back of the brain, and you can get a 39 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: sense of how the sigles move around and get processed, 40 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 2: and get a reasonable understanding of how this all works 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: from single cells to feedback at the global level. That 42 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: equates to expectations. And you can do the same thing 43 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: with hearing and touch and so on. But no amount 44 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: of that very important kind of science gives you insight 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: into why anything matters. Why is there any meaning at all? 46 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 2: In other words, why don't we just run like computers, 47 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: where we process signals and have inputs and outputs. Why 48 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: do we instead care so much about our lives and 49 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: accomplishments and whether people like us, and whether events have 50 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 2: meaning to us? Why do we ask whether we are 51 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: doing something significant with our time? Now, there's a sense 52 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 2: in which neuroscience speaks to this. We talk about reward 53 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 2: circuitry and prediction errors and salience networks, and psychology gives 54 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: us language about attention and bias and motivation. 55 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: But behind the. 56 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: Circuitry and the jargon, there's still a deep question. You 57 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: might be objectively safe and fed and housed, and yet 58 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: you need to feel that your life registers, that you're 59 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: somehow making a dent somewhere. It's the difference between surviving 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 2: and signifying from a neuroscience point of view that remains 61 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 2: difficult territory to access. Evolution can explain why we care 62 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 2: about food and shelter and reproduction, but we humans also 63 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: care fiercely about other things, about whether our work is respected, 64 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: whether our team wins, whether our group identity is affirmed, 65 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: whether a text message gets answered, whether a stranger on 66 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: the internet agrees with us, whether our absence would be noticed, 67 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,239 Speaker 2: whether someone is proud of us, whether we feel replaceable, 68 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: whether our existence registers at all beyond the. 69 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: Private theater of our own minds. 70 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 2: And there's a related question, why is one person willing 71 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: to sacrifice everything for an artistic project that no one 72 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: else understands? And another person finds fulfillment through family and 73 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: another through God, another through achievement, another through domination, same species, 74 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 2: same brain architecture. But people can have very different maps 75 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 2: of significance. So the question that's kept nagging at me 76 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: ever since I saw that chalkboard in Francis Krik's office 77 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: is this, what is the brain's code for meaning? What 78 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 2: does it mean psychologically and neurologically for something to feel 79 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: like it matters? Now, this question about mattering and the 80 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 2: brain is a big interdisciplinary question. It lives at the 81 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 2: intersection of neuroscience and psychology and philosophy. So I called 82 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 2: my colleague, the philosopher Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, because she's been 83 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: thinking about the issue of mattering for decades. 84 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: How does this. 85 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: Longing to matter shape our identity, our relationships, our cultures, 86 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: and the political world that we're all trying to share. 87 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: Goldstein has just written a new book on this, called 88 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: The Mattering Instinct, which is about this deep human drive 89 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 2: not just to survive, but to matter to ourselves and others. 90 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 2: Rebecca Goldstein is a MacArthur Genius Fellow, a Fellow of 91 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 2: the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and she was 92 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: warded the National Humanities Medal by President Obama. So today 93 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 2: we're going to explore her idea that each of us 94 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 2: carries around a kind of inner mattering map that tells 95 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: us who and what is significant. Here's my interview with 96 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 2: Rebecca Goldstein. So, Rebecca, to get us oriented, what do 97 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: you mean by the mattering instinct? And how do you 98 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: explain that to people at dinner parties. 99 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 3: I think we are programmed to act on a very 100 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 3: deep motivation that often goes hid in. But it is 101 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 3: a long matter. 102 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: What do you mean by matter? 103 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 3: You know, we use this word matter all over the 104 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 3: place of the verb to matter. We talk about what matters, 105 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 3: and we talk about who matters. And I think its 106 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 3: core meaning, deep down is to be deserving of attention, 107 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 3: So it has that notion of deserving this built into 108 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 3: it what philosophers call a normative concept, something that has 109 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 3: to do with with our values. So that term mattering 110 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: already gets us into this domain of values. We want 111 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: to know what's a value, We want to know who's 112 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 3: a value, And our mattering instinct is that we desperately 113 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 3: want ourselves to be among those who matter, who are 114 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: deserving of attention, interestingly, our own attention. 115 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 2: And you argue that this longing to matter is the 116 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 2: crux of human motivation. What makes you feel that this 117 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: longing to matter is more important than the pursuit of 118 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: pleasure or truth or survival? 119 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean many of us pursue are mattering by 120 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 3: ketenistic pursuit of pleasure, of truth, the knowledge of beauty, 121 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 3: of creativity, of power, of fame. But beneath all of 122 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 3: these things is this more basic, uh, motivation to to 123 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 3: prove that we are deserving of all of the attention 124 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 3: that we have to give ourselves in order to live 125 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: a coherently human life. Uh. And we that that is 126 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 3: what I think the longing to matter is all about. 127 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 3: And all these other motivations that give us the arc 128 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 3: of the narrative of our life, our ways of trying 129 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: to respond to to realize this deep longing. It's even more. 130 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 4: Powerful than the longing to live to survive. 131 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 3: People will sacrifice their lives if they think that that's 132 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 3: what's required in order to realize their mattering instinct, or 133 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: in the very very tragic cases where they think they can't, 134 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: which is clinically known as as depression, whose most characteristic 135 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: expression is I don't matter. Others do, but I don't, 136 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 3: I can't, I never will. They will, in fact often 137 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 3: and their life or or contemplate empty their lives. So 138 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: it's belief deeper even matter instinct. 139 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: For survi, how do you distinguish wanting to matter from 140 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: the desire to be admired or loved? Are these different flavors? 141 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: Are they trying to get it the same thing? 142 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 5: You know? 143 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 3: Freud had said that the two cornerstones of our humanness. 144 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 4: Are love and work, and I would amend pride. 145 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: And volubility to say that are the two cornerstones of 146 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 3: our humanness? Are longing for connectedness, which is also involves mattering, 147 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: but distinct from that as a separate motivation. This longing 148 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 3: to matter so connectedness, I think has something to do 149 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: with having people in our lives who will give us 150 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: special attention, whether we deserve it or not. It's kind 151 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 3: of unconditional. That's what we needed as the helpless creatures. 152 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 3: We're born into a helplessness unmatched in the animal kingdom. 153 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 3: You know, it takes to our early adulthood for the 154 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 3: last bits of our brain, when we're all the mature 155 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: stuff takes place to fall into place. So we're extremely 156 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: dependent on other people, and we are like that for 157 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,560 Speaker 3: the rest of our lives. That there must be certain 158 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: people that I count as those people who are in 159 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 3: my life, my families, my friends, my you know, romantic partner, 160 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: my colleagues, my neighbors, perhaps the members of my community 161 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 3: whose attention I feel is coming to me. And just 162 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 3: as we felt as children led the attention of our 163 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 3: family members were coming to us. 164 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,319 Speaker 4: And that's always in place. 165 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: We are gregarious creatures, evolved from gregarious creatures, born into 166 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 3: a great helplessness. It takes a very long long time 167 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 3: for us to outgrow that is connectedness, and connectedness has 168 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,559 Speaker 3: to do with our relationship with others. The mannering instinct 169 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 3: has to do with our relationship with ourselves, and as 170 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 3: I say, if it's not realized, we feel. 171 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 4: Disgusted with ourselves. 172 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 3: I've known some people close to me who have gone 173 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 3: into the deepest of depressions and there's this kind of 174 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: just self clothing. They can't stand to be in the 175 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 3: presence of themselves anymore. That shows that there is something that. 176 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 4: We all need. 177 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: It in their privation of this need, it's it shows up, 178 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 3: but what a good life, of life of flourishing requires. 179 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: And in the book, I define different strategies for satisfying 180 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 3: the mannering instinct. And although I would say that we're 181 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 3: all alive in sharing this deep motivation, in fact, what 182 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 3: I think I think the most elegant expression for what 183 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: our species is creatures of manner too long to matter. 184 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: And for some people it really is the connectedness that 185 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: we all need. 186 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: That doesn't I call them socializers? 187 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 3: You know that to have the people in their lives 188 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: paying the attention to them that they require it does 189 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 3: it for them? That is how their mannering instinct is satisfied. 190 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: And I think that's probably true for most people. I've 191 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 3: been talking to people about this for over four decades now, 192 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: just because I find it really interesting. I find the 193 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 3: diversity of the way that people try to realize this 194 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 3: common motivation fascinating. But there are other. 195 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 4: Ways of doing it. 196 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: It's still needing that connectedness. I think that's always a 197 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: given in almost everybody's life. I know a few mathematicians 198 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: who don't seem to connectedness at all. But there are 199 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: these other ways of doing it. The people I call 200 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 3: transcenders who seek their mattering in some sort of metaphysical 201 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 3: belief about the nature of the universe, that there is 202 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 3: some transcendent presence, whether they call it God or something else, 203 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 3: who purposefully created them and whose purpose gives them their purpose, 204 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 3: gives them what I call mattering project Uh, that's what 205 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 3: makes them feel as if they matter. 206 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 4: So there are these transcenders religious the spiritual. 207 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: Uh, there are people I call heroics drivers, and they're 208 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: not trying to really matter to others, not to other mortals, 209 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: and not to you know, some transcendent being that they 210 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: may believe exists. It's there. There's it's really a matter 211 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,479 Speaker 3: of some standards of excellence that they've said for themselves 212 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 3: to be intellectual, artistic, athletic, ethical, and maybe some combination 213 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: of those and that's that's what gives the purpose to 214 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 3: their life. And then there are the competitors who understand 215 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 3: this question of mattering in zero some terms. To matter 216 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: to them means to matter more than others. So it's 217 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: interesting when I talk to people about mattering, people hear 218 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 3: that question, how do you go about your mattery? According to. 219 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 2: Their strategy A central idea and your framework is the 220 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 2: mattering map. 221 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: What is the mattering map? 222 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: And how does that differ from values or identity or 223 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 2: personal narrative. 224 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, sort of contains all of those things, I think. 225 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: But what I've noticed in this pretty long life at 226 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 3: this point is that it's hard to live a human life. 227 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: People need to feel like some purpose, something that gives 228 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: some coherence to their life, and a life that's meaningful 229 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 3: in their own eyes. 230 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 4: But the projects that are taken. 231 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 3: On within these four strategies are so diverse, so many, 232 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 3: I mean pick up artists and just reading today in 233 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 3: the Washington Post about a man whose project was to 234 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 3: walk the whole planet. He's almost done with it now, 235 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 3: but that's his project, or you know, I don't know. 236 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 3: You saw that movie Julia and Julie about this young 237 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: woman who liked to cook but she was in the doldrums. 238 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 3: I think she was a would be writer and it 239 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: wasn't going anywhere. 240 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 4: And her project was to. 241 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 3: Make every true perfection, every recipe in Julia Child's cookbook 242 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: in the Heart of French Cooking a tattoo. Artists, so 243 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: train spots, analytic philosophers, mathematicians of the Saints. So there 244 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 3: are many, many, many regions on the mattering math. And 245 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: I think of these four strategies as the kind of 246 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 3: continents of the mattering math. There are transcendors, many ways 247 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 3: of being a transcender. Christianity itself has forty four thousand 248 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 3: worldwide detominations. Words have been shed, I needn't say over 249 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 3: the disagreements among those who are very close on the 250 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: mattery map. But you know the way one defines this, 251 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: and it does have to do very much with our 252 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 3: identity and what we think we're about, what we're supposed 253 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 3: to do here. As I say, what makes our lives 254 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 3: keeps us engaged in our lives. And it's when it 255 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 3: dies you're in bad shape and we don't know how 256 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 3: to go forward. 257 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,119 Speaker 2: So in your book, you bring this idea to life 258 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 2: through several stories. Scott Joplin, William James, a woman rescuing infants, 259 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 2: a former neo Nazi skinhead. Tell us about those people 260 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 2: and how they matter to the story and what they 261 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: represent about mattering theorious theory. 262 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,479 Speaker 3: But to really bring these ideas alive, you have to 263 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: look at people's lives stories. I could just start with 264 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: William James. Actually William James, who was a great favorite 265 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 3: of mine, both a psychologist and a philosopher. Multi talented. 266 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 3: He got a medical degree first. He wanted to be 267 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: an artist. He did have great artistic talent. His father 268 00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: was a kind of a religious thinker, Sweden Bornian, very 269 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 3: supportive family, very supportive community. Multi talent, but he didn't 270 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: know where to put his his talents. He was what 271 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: I call the heroic driver, or somebody who was mattering. 272 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 3: Instinct demands excellence in some or more areas that they're 273 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: very high standards of excellence, and he wasn't fulfilling those. 274 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 3: He went from art to medicine and he fell into 275 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: a really deep depression. He was prostate on his bed. 276 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 3: He you know, he couldn't get any energy. He is 277 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 3: such an example I think of what happens to a 278 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 3: person who's got all of the connectedness, the beautiful, wonderful relationships. 279 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 3: But that's something else that by temperament, by talent, whatever 280 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 3: it is, uh, demands of his mannering instinct, something aside 281 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 3: from connectiviusy Is was a heroic striver. And until he 282 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 3: found his niche in psychology and philosophy, lending them together 283 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 3: in a way that I re there, he couldn't go 284 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: forward and uh, and then he was known as a 285 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 3: person of tremendous energy. He was just always going. And 286 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: so this to me, I mean he I should say 287 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: that he had a sister. She was the youngest of 288 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: those five children, and she had she was also born 289 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 3: to be a heroic striver. She had the same kind 290 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: of temperament as her search to older brothers Henry and William. 291 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 3: Being a Victorian woman, she had no place to put that, 292 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 3: and she turned it into She was a mattering project 293 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 3: was an invalidist. She was an invalid. She was a 294 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 3: lifelong invalid. When she finally developed cancer at age I 295 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: think was forty two, died at forty four, she was grateful, 296 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: but at least she had a diagnosable illness. 297 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, she was suffering from severe depression. 298 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 3: And so to me, this family, the James family, it's 299 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 3: almost like an experiment and to see what happens when 300 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,920 Speaker 3: a person, given their temperament isn't, for whatever reason, isn't 301 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 3: given the means to. 302 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 4: Realize what. 303 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 3: They're mattering instinct demands of. 304 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 4: It's very hard to be a heroics driver, but it's so. 305 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 3: Much harder to be going to be a heroics driver, 306 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: not allowed to be one for whatever reason. 307 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: So this illuminates the connection between mattering and mental health. 308 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 2: Let's move to Scott Joplin. What does that story tell us, Yes, it's. 309 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 6: Not Joplin, who was known as King Ragtime, and I 310 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 6: don't know if you know his music, ly wonderful he 311 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 6: has it became he was forgotten for a long time. 312 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 3: And then this was in the seventies with what was that. 313 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 7: Movie That's Staying Right and that that's that music is 314 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 7: played and he was buried in a pauper's grave, and 315 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,679 Speaker 7: after that, you know, he was dug up and he 316 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 7: was I think he was given a posthumous polar surprise 317 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 7: for not for his Ragti music. 318 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 3: He didn't take that so very seriously. He wanted to 319 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 3: be a classical musician. 320 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 4: And he did compose classical pieces. 321 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: He composed two operas, one of which was lost and 322 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 3: the other Tree Minitia, which has been in some sense 323 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: found not with the full orchestration that he had provided, 324 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 3: but musicians have provided the orchestration. I think marvelous. He 325 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 3: tried to do something extraordinity. His mattering project was to 326 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 3: bring the Black American experience. 327 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 4: Into music and to try to create the. 328 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: Highest forms of music from the African American experience. 329 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 4: And it was in Congress it was considered ridiculous. He 330 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 4: got He poured. 331 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 3: Everything into this mattering project, kept perfecting it, could not 332 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 3: get anybody to perform it. The idea of opera using 333 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 3: the grand forms of opera from classical music, to speak 334 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: of the African American experience in the United States post 335 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 3: Civil War during reconstruction was just considered preposterous. Poured everything 336 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 3: into it. As I said, died of pauper. He could 337 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 3: have just kept creating his ragtime pieces, could have tried 338 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: to create more popular forms of music, but to show 339 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,919 Speaker 3: the African American experience in its most glorious setting. This 340 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 3: was his mattering project. 341 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 2: So tell us about the mattering project of your of 342 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 2: the neo Nazi skinhead that you met. 343 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: So, yeah, I'm very interested in where the mannering instinct 344 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 3: is really not being realized and many people are driven 345 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 3: to quite horrible ideological extremes. This is very rich pickings 346 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 3: for ideologies to go amongst those who are wanting to 347 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: feel that they don't matter. And I really wanted. 348 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 8: To talk to an inceel involuntary selibates, and I spent 349 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 8: a lot of time online reading their message boards. 350 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 3: And the extreme things they say, and the resentment is 351 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 3: just boiling up because they feel that they don't matter, 352 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 3: They're not getting what they feel they need, and they 353 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: blame it on those from whom they want this young women. 354 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: And I was also reading about neo Nazis and I 355 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 3: really really wanted to get to know one. Most of 356 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 3: them didn't answer me when I wrote to them, but 357 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 3: there was this one who answered me. He is an 358 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 3: ex Nazi skinhead. He grew up under terrible circumstances and 359 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 3: the really mean streets of Philadelphia, horrific family life. 360 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 5: His mother was a drug addict, his stepfather was a 361 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 5: brutal ex Navy man who would eat this young man, 362 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 5: and much so that sometimes on the way home from school, 363 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 5: he would try to get hit by a car. 364 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: And during one summer he met some neo Nazi skinheads 365 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 3: and they were very impressed with him because he actually 366 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,479 Speaker 3: he actually knew that the enemy had gone to school 367 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 3: with black kids and as they had into you know, 368 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 3: he was a street warrior in Philadelphia. And then they 369 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 3: told him because he really felt like he didn't matter, 370 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 3: they really puffed him out, they flattered him, and they 371 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 3: told him, look in the mirror, you are a white male, 372 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 3: heterosexual American. You matter more than all these others. They 373 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 3: are stealing You're mattering. And this is very typical of 374 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 3: certain spheres of the mattering man to think of mannering 375 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: as zero sum to the extent that others matter, they're 376 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 3: taking away pieces of the pie from you. That is 377 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: how he was telling his story in terms of the mattering, 378 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 3: of feeling that he mattered, feeling that he was powerful, 379 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 3: feeling that he had to make to punish those who 380 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 3: were stealing mattering from him. It is very typical of 381 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: certain areas problematic, troubling and troubled areas of the mattering 382 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 3: that that people feel that others are stealing mattering from 383 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 3: them and there's not enough mattering to go around. I 384 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 3: think that's one of the big messages of the Book 385 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 3: of ways that we could try to change things so 386 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 3: that people would feel that there is enough mattering to 387 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: go around, that the extent that any of us matter, 388 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 3: we all matter to that same extent. I think that's 389 00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 3: the basics of ethics. He's an example of, yeah, trying 390 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 3: to realize this deep motivation, how very wrong things can go, 391 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 3: and he fortunately found much more creative, life fulfilling ways 392 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: of meeting his instinct, which is why he was willing 393 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 3: to talk to me. 394 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: So, how do you see distorted or threatened mattering playing 395 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: out in our politics or culture currently? 396 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 4: The ways that we choose to try to realize our 397 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 4: mattering instinct with it's religiously spiritually achievement, competition, socializing. It's 398 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: so fraught for us, it's so fraught with our emotions. 399 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: We're staking our lives lives on this. 400 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 3: Uh, this is the way that we try to prove 401 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 3: to ourselves that we are worth all the attention, but 402 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: we have to give ourselves just to lead our lives. 403 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,320 Speaker 3: The mere fact that people are living their lives so 404 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: differently can feel like an affront, you know, I experienced 405 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 3: this very much when I was born into a very 406 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: religious family, and I think I know very well what 407 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 3: it feels like to be a religious person. I was 408 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 3: very religious, extremely religious, until the age of twelve or thirteen, 409 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 3: and then I know more. But I know that when 410 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: people like me, i am an atheist, talk to religious people, 411 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 3: we often kind of talk down down to them, and they, 412 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 3: you know, we as if if only they would be rational, 413 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: they would realize that their life is based on something unsubstantiated. Uh. 414 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 3: And And for their part, you know, religious people often 415 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 3: will talk down to people like me, like, how can 416 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: we positively have any purpose in our life? How can 417 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: we be moral if we don't think that the big 418 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 3: guy up there is watching us? The reason when they 419 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 3: were all over the Mannering map there there is this 420 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 3: kind of adversarial uh, positioning of of people against those 421 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: who who who are who are staking them mattering on 422 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: something else. The scientists will talk down to the people 423 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 3: in the humanities, the people of humanities ontown the people 424 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: And besides, you know, I've experienced all these in my life, 425 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: and and you know, so there is a a deep 426 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 3: tendency across the Mannering map to universalize one's own way 427 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: of going about realizing that because it means so much 428 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 3: to us, and we're always uncertain, we don't know, we 429 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 3: don't know if we're going about it the right way. 430 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 3: That's a really important part of it. Why it's so 431 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 3: for us, this uncertainty, and that makes us very defensive, 432 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: which can make us very intolerant. And we certainly see 433 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: this in the politics. 434 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,479 Speaker 2: If we're taking the mattering instincts seriously, how would this 435 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: change the way that we think about our schools, our institutions, 436 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 2: our politics. What can we do there? 437 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 3: So I think really the first thing to do is 438 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 3: to understand this matter, and it's how it comes about, 439 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 3: why we have it, And I think it's rather a 440 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 3: beautiful thing about us. We recognize because we have this 441 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 3: great capacity for self reflection, that we can step outside 442 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 3: of our lives and interrogate ourselves. 443 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 4: Turn our theory of mind that. 444 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 3: Developed in order to understand others, we can turn it 445 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 3: on ourselves and discover things about ourselves. 446 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 4: And one thing that is glaringly obvious it is. 447 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 3: That we pay so much attention to ourselves constantly. We 448 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 3: have to. 449 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 4: We're biologically determined to be. 450 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 3: It seem would seem that we think that we're the 451 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 3: most important thing in the whole universe, and short of luacy, 452 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: we know that we're not. I mean, we're all across 453 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: the mannering map. There are different views of the values. 454 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 3: What makes life valuable? What are the things we need 455 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: to do that are valuable in order for ourselves to 456 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 3: be valuable? You know, it makes us value seeking creature. 457 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: And it's so easy nowadays to get really appalled by 458 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 3: various things. But I always try to see it in 459 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 3: terms of this framework, to try to understand the what's 460 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 3: going wrong, but that it's stemming from something that I 461 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 3: find uh moving about about all you it's the matter 462 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 3: in the state, And so I think just to see 463 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 3: ourselves and to see others in terms of what it 464 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 3: is we share, it gives, you know, a deep understanding 465 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 3: to understand is not to to accept all the bad 466 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 3: things that it can lead to, but at least it 467 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 3: is to understand one another and not see each other 468 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: as monsters. 469 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 2: And you have a nice quote from Spinoza on this, right, Yes, 470 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 2: I think. 471 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 3: The quote that you're talking about is he says, so 472 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 3: you know, my my aim is not to laugh at others, 473 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 3: not to be uh, not. 474 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 4: To to cry them. 475 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 3: My aim is to understand, and I find that extremely 476 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 3: inspiring and helpful. But also if we. 477 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 4: Want to reach people who are reachable. 478 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 3: My my ex Nazi friend calls them the wobbleys. If 479 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 3: you want to treat them as if they matter, that's 480 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 3: what got through to him. Don't curse them, but speak 481 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 3: to them as if they matter. Our brains, I don't 482 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 3: have to tell you are the most complicated thing that 483 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 3: has been found yet in this universe. 484 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 4: They are extremely complicated. 485 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 3: They demand a tremendous amount of water, and so of 486 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 3: course we pay ourselves a tremendous amount of attention. You're 487 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 3: thinking about yourself, you're fantasizing your daydreaming about yourself, you're 488 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 3: remembering with nostalgia. It's we are self centered and we 489 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 3: have to be. It's biologically determined. But as I said, 490 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 3: we have this capacity for self reflection, we can step 491 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 3: outside of it, and that's when we become these justificatory creatures. 492 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 3: I say, instead of being called holo sapiens, we should 493 00:34:55,200 --> 00:35:00,840 Speaker 3: be called Homo eustafagants, the justifying creatures. That what's really 494 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: different about us, you know, and it's not our gregariousness. 495 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 3: Other animals are also gregarious. Other animals need deep connections 496 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 3: because everything's more complicated in us. Not even bonobos, those 497 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 3: wonderful cousins of ours. They don't step outside of themselves 498 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 3: and have to justify the their way of life, say 499 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 3: why am I worth all of this? We evolve this 500 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 3: capacity for self reflection. That's what brings us up into 501 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 3: this other sphere, the sphere of the sphere of values. 502 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 3: It's not enough to just survive and flourish like the 503 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 3: other creatures on or if we have to justify to 504 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 3: ourselves our right to survive and flourish. 505 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 2: So, Rebecca, if a listener felt that his or her 506 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 2: life didn't really matter to themselves or to other people, 507 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 2: what would you say to them after having written this book? 508 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 4: We really do all matter. 509 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 3: I think that's what we're talking about when we talk 510 00:35:55,320 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 3: about the intrinsic dignity of the human So people really 511 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: do need some kind of mattering project. Whether they collapse 512 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 3: it into their need for connectedness, or if they have 513 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 3: such a temperament that they need other things. I think 514 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 3: that they should first of all, you know, really think 515 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 3: about what it is that would make them feel that 516 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 3: they matter. 517 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 4: Is it closer connections with others might be? Is it 518 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 4: some sort of creative outlet might be. Maybe it's a spirituality. 519 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,760 Speaker 4: It's hard to be human. 520 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: That was my interview with Rebecca Goldstein. I want to 521 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 2: return to the idea at the center of today's conversation 522 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 2: that every one of us is running a mattering project 523 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 2: to be seen, to be needed, to be effective, to 524 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 2: weigh something in the world. Rebecca argues that this is 525 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 2: the deep engine that lies below our decisions, below our identities, 526 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 2: our conflicts, our cooperation. So we just talked about how 527 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 2: this mattering instinct draws a kind of inner cartography that 528 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,880 Speaker 2: tells you what counts and what doesn't. And we saw 529 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 2: through a few stories from her book how different these 530 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 2: maps can be. For Scott Joplin, his map placed a 531 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 2: huge red circle around an opera that the world generally ignored. 532 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 2: For William James, mattering was intertwined with mental survival, clawing 533 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: his way out of despair, deciding that his choices could 534 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 2: make a difference, that his life could be something other 535 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: than a footnote. For the former skinhead, mattering initially meant 536 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: inflicting harm to feel stronger, and then later redrawing his 537 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 2: map to realize that significance doesn't have to be stolen 538 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: from other people. Those very different lives, but they're all 539 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:55,439 Speaker 2: shaped by the common question of what has to be. 540 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,839 Speaker 1: True for me to feel that eye matter. 541 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 2: Eral science point of view, this is a question about circuitry, 542 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 2: how our systems of reward and fear and social belonging 543 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 2: get trained over time. From Rebecca's philosophical point of view, 544 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: it's about value and meaning, what we treat as real, 545 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 2: as precious, as worth sacrifice. And the hope is that 546 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 2: when we put those views together we can get more 547 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: traction on understanding ourselves and our current moment. So I 548 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 2: want to return to that line from the philosopher Borus Spinoza, 549 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 2: the line that Rebecca loves. 550 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,239 Speaker 1: What Spinoza wrote is quote, I. 551 00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 2: Have made a ceaseless effort not to ridicule, not to bewail, 552 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:49,359 Speaker 2: not to scorn human actions, but to understand them. What 553 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: he's saying here is that instead of reacting with laughter 554 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 2: or tears or hate, one can undertake a calm, rational 555 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 2: inquiry to grasp the cause is behind human behaviors and events, 556 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,919 Speaker 2: viewing them as natural consequences. Spinoza was making a call 557 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 2: for intellectual clarity and emotional detachment to comprehend the world, 558 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 2: and that was a hallmark of his rationalist philosophy. So 559 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 2: the key call for us here is to try to 560 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: understand how different people run different mattering projects. This gives 561 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: us a different starting point than we usually take. Instead 562 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 2: of asking how can anybody believe that, we can ask 563 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 2: what does this person believe they need in order to matter? 564 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 2: And here's a small experiment that you might try after 565 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 2: this episode. Notice your own mattering map. When you get 566 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 2: defensive in an argument, or when you feel invisible at work, 567 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 2: or when you're strangely proud of something tiny, ask what 568 00:39:56,000 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 2: part of my mattering is being threatened or affirmed right now? Well, 569 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 2: so do this also with someone that you maybe find infuriating, 570 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: Ask what mattering project is their behavior serving? You might 571 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 2: not love the answer, but it can shift you out 572 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,240 Speaker 2: of scorn into a stance closer to understanding. The point 573 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 2: is to recognize that beneath all the surface differences, political 574 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 2: and cultural and personal, there's a universally shared architecture a 575 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 2: brain that needs to register to count, to feel that 576 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 2: this brief candle leaves some kind of trace. 577 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: If we can see that if we can. 578 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 2: Talk about mattering as much as we talk about stress, 579 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: or diet or sleep, we might be able to redesign 580 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 2: our interactions in ways that take this into account and 581 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 2: to each of us, the invitation from this conversation is 582 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 2: to participate in that process a bit more consciously, to ask, 583 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: how do I want to matter and to whom? Go 584 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 2: to eagleman dot com slash podcast for more information and 585 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 2: to find further reading. Join the weekly discussions on my 586 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 2: substack and check out Subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube 587 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 2: for videos of each episode and to leave comments until 588 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 2: next time. I'm David Eagleman, and this is Inner Cosmos