WEBVTT - Lucinda Williams 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.360 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsets podcast. My 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:19.239 guest today is Lucinda Williams. This year published an autobiography, 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.759 Don't Tell Anybody The Secrets I Told You, Lucinda. The 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.880 book came out earlier in the year. What's been the 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:28.600 aftermath for you personally? 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:35.479 Well, it's I mean, I've been overwhelmed with great responses 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:40.400 and great reviews and everything, mostly people telling me they've 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:44.120 read or they've listened to the audio book. A lot 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.360 of people, a lot of responses about that. The audiobook. 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:53.239 People seem to really be responding positively to that, and 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:54.400 that makes me feel good. 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:59.480 And so you read the audio book yourself? Yes, yeah, 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:01.240 was that like doing that? 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:07.240 It was interesting. I'd never done it before. I Mean, 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:11.800 the whole experience of writing a book is different than 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:15.080 anything I've been through, you know. So, I mean I've 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:19.560 written songs, made gone in and recorded albums and you know, 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.960 done all of that, everything goes along with making an album. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:29.880 But it's there's nothing that compares anything I've done in 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:34.120 the past to writing your own book and all the 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.319 things that go along with that, you know, the editing 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:41.279 and the the sending, the you know, writing a piece 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.640 and then sending it in for the editor to read, 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:47.800 and then getting the editors feedback and going back and 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:51.480 forth about whether that something should be included or not, 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:53.440 and you know that sort of thing. 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:56.480 So how did it come about that you actually wrote 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:56.960 the book? 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.720 Well, for years people have been saying I should write 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.920 a book, you know, because I guess it's because so 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:11.200 many of my songs. I have a handful of narrative songs, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:16.040 and every whenever I perform, I always talk about who 0:02:16.080 --> 0:02:18.480 I wrote the song about, what I wrote it about, 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:20.480 And you know, I go and try to go into 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.639 as much depth as I can about the songs before 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:27.680 I sing them when I'm on stage, and the audience 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.400 seems to really like that and respond well to it. 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.120 What was the actual process, Well. 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:44.360 I got an offer from my manager, Tom Overbeek could 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.760 probably have answer this better. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.440 But who's also your husband, Let's. 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:55.720 Say he's awesome my husband, Yes, But anyway, we were 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.120 approached by you know, a couple of different publishing companies 0:02:59.160 --> 0:03:01.600 in New York. Of course they're all in New York City, 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:10.320 and you know a bunch of meetings were planned where 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:12.520 I would go and I would meet with the with 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.639 the people at the poshing companies, you know, and they 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:21.840 were all very enthusiastic, and you know, we would just 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.160 talk about what kind of book I wanted to make, 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.640 write and see, I said, make like I was making 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.240 an album, what kind of book I wanted to write. 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:34.240 And they were very adamant, all every one of them were. 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:37.640 They were all very adamant about that it be in 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:43.960 my own voice, you know, So that was mainly what 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:45.200 they were concerned about. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:49.240 So you made the deal, they said what they want. 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:50.840 How did you actually write it? 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.560 Right? Well, that was the thing. Before I wrote it, 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.080 I didn't know how to get started. I mean, I 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.760 just didn't know what you know, I'm used to when 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.520 I write songs to getting ready to make an album. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:09.560 You know, I like to be in a certain mood 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.080 if I'm going to be writing, And this felt more 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.559 like work, I guess, kind of. You know. I didn't 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.280 have the luxury of being able to. I used to 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.839 have this fantasy that if I ever wrote a book, 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.599 I was going to be you know, like these writers 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:31.640 you hear about you go away to the mountains and 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.159 live in a cabin for a year, you know, they 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:39.000 they have they take a hiatus, you know, to write 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:43.120 the great American novel, and they sit there in their 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:48.040 cabin and drink whiskey or scotch and smoke cigarettes and 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:52.279 write their novel. You know, That's what I thought it 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:55.440 was always going to be like. But it was anything 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.320 but that, you know. I basically grabbed a couple of 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:04.440 legal pass ads, sat down in my favorite chair, which 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:10.200 is a good start to be comfortable, and I started writing, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:15.000 just as if I were telling someone my life story. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:21.719 You know. I put everything in order, but I didn't 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:26.400 want it to sound like Okay, I was born in 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.839 late Charles, Louisiana, and then I went to this town 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.040 and then I went to you know, I wanted it 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.680 to be well written, and that's what I was mostly 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:39.680 concerned about. And I was very concerned that my dad 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:45.880 wasn't alive anymore to kind of oversee my writing, you know, 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:49.880 some because I could. I could have asked him questions 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:54.640 and he would have suggested things, and so I felt 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:59.000 kind of insecure because he wasn't around anymore, and I 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.440 really wanted here's a good example of what it was like. 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.560 I was backstage with Roseanna Cash one time at a show. 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:11.760 We were doing and we were talking about because she 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.240 had written a book and I was talking about my 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:19.599 book and everything, and she suddenly broke the conversation and 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.160 said with Sinda, you don't have to be James Joyce, 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.240 and I said, yeah, that's just it. I want to 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.040 be James Joyce. You know. So I was kind of 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:40.400 sort of holding myself back unnecessarily because I wanted to 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:46.200 be able to have this well written, you know. I 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.680 wanted the New York Times to like it and everything 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:53.520 and really want what it really was was. I wanted 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:55.600 my dad to like it. And I wanted all of 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.599 his writer all these writers I grew up with who 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:04.159 are had this imminent respect for. I wanted them to 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:07.839 appreciate it and like it. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:11.440 Okay, so you finally get over the hub, you sit 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:15.280 in a comfortable chair, you have the legal pads. The 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:17.440 hardest part is starting. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.120 Yeah, I had to have a certain kind of pen 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:21.760 that I like. 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:23.480 What kind of pen is that? 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.640 See? I knew you were going to ask me a question. 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.880 I wasn't ready for Wait a minute, Okay, I don't 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:35.920 have it in front of me. I have to get one. 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.760 Okay, Well, irrelevant of the brand name, what's so special 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:39.560 about that pen. 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.600 I just like the consistency of the ink then. 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.640 It comes out even when you write it, or the 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:47.040 way it looks on the page. 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:50.520 Yes, both okay. Yeah. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.840 And it's a ballpoint No. 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.800 I don't like ballpoint pens. Never have liked this. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.800 So is it like a regular nib with an ink pen? 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.760 Yes, it's a John. 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.880 Sorry, we're gonna get a We're gonna get a verdict 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:13.560 here on the pen. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:17.240 I need that pen that a lot. 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:20.640 So it's one specific pen and you have to fill 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:25.000 it with ink. No, okay, So here we have the 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:25.880 pen from John. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:32.280 We have the actual pen. Okay, it's called a Precise 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.320 V seven. I've just done it. Commercial. 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:40.520 Is this You've been your favorite pen for years? How 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:41.960 do you stumble on this pen? 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.760 I don't know. How do you ever stumble on a 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:51.280 pen upon a pen? It was just around. I started 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:56.360 riding with it and liked it. Amazon carries them, yeah, so. 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.680 It could be delivered. Are you a big Amazon person? 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:04.320 Yeah? I shouldn't be, though, because one time I was 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:08.240 shopping on Amazon and Steve Earl. I was backstage at 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:12.760 a venue and Steve Earl is there and he's looked 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.719 over my shoulder. And saw what I was doing, and 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:18.080 he said, are you shopping on Amazon? And I said yes, 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.200 And he said, oh, I don't go on there. He said, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.880 that man is that's a bad man. He's a bad man, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:28.760 the guy who runs Amazon. 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.440 Well, you know, my opinion is this that I had 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.080 too many times I went to the store and they 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.440 didn't have what I was looking for, whereas I know 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.560 they have it on Amazon. I'm not polluting, I'm not 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:46.560 driving in Yeah, it's so convenient some things you can 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:52.560 stop online shopping Amazon, Google. Yeah, but these things are 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:53.240 here forever. 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.400 Yeah, it's pretty hard to let go of it. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.320 Yeah, they're coming to my house seeming every day. So 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.720 how many times did you start and stop and start 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:06.360 to stop before you found your groove? 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.240 I don't know, probably two or three months. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:17.440 Oh really? 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.320 Oh yeah, that's the other thing. I was talking to 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:27.319 a lot of people about writing a book and read 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:31.880 a lot of other people's autobiographies or biographies before I 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:37.439 started mine, you know, see how they wrote theirs. And 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:41.120 a lot of other musicians who had written books offered 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.439 to talk with me about it, or if I needed 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.120 any help, please give them a call. That that kind 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:53.120 of thing, And and several of them told me how 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.480 long it took them to write their books, and I 0:10:56.520 --> 0:11:00.839 was a I was amazed. Actually. I think Ruis Springsteen 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:06.120 said ten years. I think Roseanne Cash said seven years. 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:10.800 You know, so that made me feel better about it. 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.120 Okay, so how long did it actually take you to 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:14.520 write it? 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.719 I think it was two or three years overall, and 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.400 which sounds amazing. It's not like I was sitting in 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.520 the chair for two or three years without moving. But 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.280 it's just more about life getting in the way, you know, 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.760 and we had we were still touring and recording. You know, 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:37.200 I was trying to write this book in the middle 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.480 of all the other stuff I had to do. 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:45.240 Okay, you said something a few minutes ago about getting 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:48.440 in the mood to make a record. Mm hmm. Tell 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:49.079 me about that. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:54.400 Well, I meant getting in the mood to write okngs right, yeah, 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:56.959 to record for the record. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.760 Well, okay, let's slow down. Do you say, oh, I 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.800 want to make a record, I better write songs, or 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.840 you're writing songs, say well, I have enough songs to 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:07.520 make a record. 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:16.080 Usually that's a good question. I prefer it's happened both ways. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.600 But I prefer to just be writing songs and then 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.040 have enough to go in and make a record. And 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.880 I've done it both ways. I've done it that way 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:27.880 where I'm just writing and I'm not I don't feel 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.240 pressured about having to get in the studio by a 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:34.120 certain time. But I've also had that pressure a little bit, 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.160 you know, like we have to go in the studio. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:41.120 We've got to have a record out by next year 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.959 or something, so you know, we got to get these songs. 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:52.960 I'd rather just concentrate on the songwriting and you know, 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.240 be able to be spontaneous. 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.040 So what does that look like? Are you standing in 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:01.080 the shower to go, oh, man, I got it? I 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:02.960 got to go to write this song down. 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.160 Sometimes, yeah, I do. I come up with ideas in 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:11.440 this shower quite often, actually, or when I first wake 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:16.880 up and I'm in that zone between a sleep and awake, 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.400 you know, and your brain's in a special kind of place. 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.400 I get a lot of times I lay in bed 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.439 like that before I actually get up and think I've 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:29.600 got lines running through my head and then I have 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:34.280 to find the voice record on my phone or something 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.600 that I've got to get it down right away before 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:37.760 I forget. 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.439 Okay, do this. Do the words come with the music 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.040 or the words come down and then you have the music. 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:46.960 Lately what it's been, the words come and then I 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:52.160 add the music. But occasionally it happens both ways. Occasionally 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:58.200 I'll a melody will pop out with some words like 0:13:58.360 --> 0:13:59.480 maybe a hook line. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:03.520 Okay, so you could be in the shower, you could 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.040 be in the bitter and spontaneous. Do you ever sit 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.680 down and say I have to write a song and 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:09.640 start writing a. 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:14.920 Song only if I'm being asked to write a song 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:19.440 for something like a movie or something like that. It's 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:23.040 not one of the things I enjoy doing as much. 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:28.240 I call it writing on demand. You know Steve Earl 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:32.200 is speaking of Steve. He's great at that. He can 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:36.080 just whip up these songs, you know, on demand like 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.720 that for movies or TV shows or that sort of thing. 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.400 Let's go back to the book. You're very personal in 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.440 the book. Some of these people are still alive. How 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.480 did you choose what to reveal and to what degree 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.120 were you self conscious about telling these truths? 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:01.920 Well, you know, when it came to talking about previous 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:08.640 romantic partners, obviously I didn't want to start talking about 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:15.320 you know, the technical, you know, how it was in 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.080 bed with this person or something like that. You know, 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:23.840 other than that too much alcohol may have been consumed 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.720 and the night didn't go as well as I'd hoped. 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.040 I think there's something in there about that with one 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:32.280 of the guys. 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:37.400 You know, well, there are a lot of guys. I 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.240 love this song by the Tubes called boy Crazy. Would 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:43.920 you say that you became boy crazy? 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.720 At some point I knew, See this is one of 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:51.840 my fears because I had so many guys listed. In 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:57.960 every every other page I talk about being smitten with 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.320 someone and worried that there were too much of that 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.800 in the book. You know, I'm writing too much about 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.640 these this guy and that guy and the other and 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:13.160 you know, and now sure enough you're asking me about that. 0:16:16.000 --> 0:16:19.800 I was. I was asking you that as more of 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:23.240 a personality direction thing. One of the things I thought 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.480 was great about the book was you talked about your crushes. 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.720 You talked about your relationships in a way that people don't. 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:37.400 I'm not judging you for that, I just think seriously, 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.480 but I'm asking how you judge yourself, not how. 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:45.280 I well, I just I tried to look at it 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.240 as as if you know, someone else were writing it 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:54.280 and how it I feel, you know. And also I 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.000 learned a little bit about that by reading some of 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:04.119 the other artists books, like Carly Simon's book was Pretty 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:11.160 you know, she talked about her relationship with James Taylor, 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.480 and there are just a couple of things I thought, 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.360 wow when I read the book, you know, like that 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.119 might have been a little TMI. You know. 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:28.080 Well, what resonated for me was is said, what kind 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:31.399 of guy you like? You would feel a spark and 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.720 you would be active as opposed to passive. 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.560 Right, Yeah, well, that's great that you got that impression 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.879 of me, wow, because I'm so shy. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:47.879 Actually, well, I can talk about relationships in my life 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.000 and biggest relationships when I was took action in a 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.880 way that I would never take action, and I can't 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.320 sit here and tell you why. You know, it's like 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.000 all of a sudden, I did something was completely out 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:01.560 of character. 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:06.520 Yeah, it usually takes a little bit of wine for 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:07.199 me to do that. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:11.119 Two of my most serious relationships went on for years 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:14.760 that I took action, and I both times I could 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:16.920 not replicate that. I don't know what I mean, I 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.359 you know, I just acted in a way that I 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:20.480 never would before. 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.600 Yeah, that's great though. 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.719 It is great, but as you talk about being a 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:31.640 shy person, it's not something you can manufacture. Someone said, 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:33.760 go do that. He said, no, no, no, I'm not. 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:34.439 Yeah. 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:41.320 Yeah, and you got married to Greg Sowders of the 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.760 Long Writers, who I certainly know from the publishing world. 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.399 Yeah, you talked about. 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.359 Previous relationships of the book. Why did you decide to 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:51.480 get married then? 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:58.560 Probably because when I you know, when I start the 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.199 answer out with probably, that means I don't really know. 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:06.520 Probably because he told me he was my ace and 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:11.480 the hole. You know, I'm the guy who's gonna be 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.520 here for you when all the other ones have left, 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.200 And I was just ready to hear that, you know, And. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:25.800 Okay, how hard was it to end it? 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:30.239 It was hard? You know. Actually I remember when he 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.600 moved in with me. The day he moved in with me, 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:38.040 I had all kinds of concerns and doubts. And you know, 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.960 because I was very and I still am very independent, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:51.440 and I like my quiet alone time, especially if I'm 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:59.200 going to write. So basically he became a born again Christian. 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.480 Oh why you were married? 0:20:03.480 --> 0:20:05.680 Well, towards the end of it, you. 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.320 Know that's enough to end a relationship. 0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:11.959 Yeah, it was. 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.560 One thing in the book that you mentioned numerous times. 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:28.560 Is your OCD your obsessive compulsive disorder? Tell us about that? 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.200 Oh God, well, it's a real thing, for one thing, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.720 because you know, people joke about it a lot. Oh 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.000 I've got OCD and all of this, but they don't 0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:44.160 really usually, you know, because if you really have it, 0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.959 I mean, it could be a serious thing, get in 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:51.879 the way of life. I heard that Bob Dylan had 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:55.480 a similar thing that I have, where you had you 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.879 feel like, you know, you have to wash your hands 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:02.720 on a regular basis, which is a good thing. But 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.960 sometimes I've washed my hands when I don't really have to. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:10.080 I just think, I do you know I don't like 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:16.680 to touch door knobs because other people's hands have touched them. God, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:18.000 this is so embarrassing. 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:21.520 I can't I have OCD too. I saw a special 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:27.200 OCD doctor about it. Really helped. Okay, I say, Lucinda, 0:21:27.280 --> 0:21:31.119 We're gonna go out for a burger. You lock the door, 0:21:31.680 --> 0:21:34.119 can you leave or do you have to check to 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:35.280 see if the walk. 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:38.840 I can leave? Yeah, I don't have that kind. 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:42.320 Do you have any hoarding tendencies. 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.200 I don't know. I mean, I do save certain things 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.760 like memorabilia, photographs and that sort of thing, but I 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.639 don't like clutter. So if i'm I wouldn't be able 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:59.320 to be a hoarder because of the clutter. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.040 Okay, let's talk about making a record. You say that 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:09.320 you like what you want, but let's go one step further. 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:14.000 Let's just assume you're in complete control. Let's say you're 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:18.040 mixing the final track. How hard will you be for 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.720 you to walk away and say this is the one. 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.040 It wouldn't be hard because I would know that this 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:31.240 is the one, you know. But the main thing with 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.760 in the studio when you say I'm in control, that's 0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:38.119 exactly it. You know. If I am in control, then 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:42.800 I'm able to decide which track is it is you know? 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:47.280 Or if this is the track you know, as opposed 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.680 to debating it with the producer or the engineer because 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:53.240 everybody's got their own opinion. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:57.400 I'm asking something a little bit different. Okay, Let's say 0:22:57.440 --> 0:23:00.320 that you are alone in the room, you were totally 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:05.920 in control. Can you make a decision easily and move 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:10.240 on or do you constantly ruminate or on the decision well, 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:12.959 maybe it could be better, maybe this is a little worse. 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.520 It's kind of a hard question because I've done both things, 0:23:17.560 --> 0:23:21.679 and I might do one or the other. But I 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:24.119 like to think that, yes, I would be able to 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:26.480 make a decision and walk away. 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.719 Okay, because that's a classic OCD thing. Yeah, so you 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:35.040 have your washing your hands, you have touching the doorknob. 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:40.840 What else would you classify as your OCD? 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:46.440 That's it? I mean, you know what I other people 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:52.119 consider OCD. I might not like I like things in order. 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:56.479 I like things to be organized. I probably got that 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:59.879 from my dad because he was like that, you know, 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:03.200 I don't like clutter. I don't think that's OCD though. 0:24:03.280 --> 0:24:07.119 That's just Okay, we're having dinner. We're having dinner, but 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:10.159 we're just talking. The silverware is laid out, and you 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:12.720 notice that my silverware is askew. Are you going to 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:13.960 reach over and straighten it? 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:14.800 Yes? 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.840 And do you ever get in OCD loops and are 0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:25.040 tortured by it? 0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:28.680 Yeah? 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:30.879 And what do you do to get out of the loop? 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:31.560 If anything? 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:38.840 Well, hand sanitizer has been a game changer because then 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.080 I don't necessarily have to find water and soap to 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:44.959 wash my hands. I can just put you know, sprint, 0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:47.280 some hand sanitizer on, and then I'm good to go. 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:51.200 So it saves a lot of time. But I need 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:53.040 to have one of those with me all the time. 0:24:53.080 --> 0:24:56.320 It's like my little drug or my little you know, 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:58.240 kind of it calms me down. 0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:03.240 But let's say you're home alone, you're not going anywhere, 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:06.919 and you wash your hands. How long will it take 0:25:06.960 --> 0:25:08.000 you to wash your hands? 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.960 Oh? You probably read that book Boy who Couldn't Stop washing. 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:15.800 Well, I'm certainly aware of this, and I have my 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:17.359 own issues. That's why I'm asking. 0:25:17.480 --> 0:25:22.520 Yeah, just a normal time, you know. I mean, I 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:28.840 prefer that the water is hot as opposed to cold. 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:31.840 But even if there's no hot water, I just wash 0:25:31.920 --> 0:25:33.480 my hands and go about my day. 0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:43.280 Okay. So you have this itinerant lifestyle. Once you hit 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:49.480 your late teams and you don't have great commercial success 0:25:49.600 --> 0:25:54.680 for the better part of twenty years, and you're working, 0:25:54.880 --> 0:25:57.440 as you say, a lot of low level jobs. You're 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:02.520 working in record stores, et cetera. How did you keep 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:03.320 your mood up? 0:26:06.040 --> 0:26:14.960 Antidepressants? Probably just you know, the group of people I 0:26:15.000 --> 0:26:21.479 associated with were fairly up people, and you know, I 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:26.960 tried to surround myself with positive people for the most part. 0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:32.119 Do you take it or did you take antidepressants? 0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:34.359 Yeah? I did, and I do. 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:38.080 What was the space in between? You were off antidepressants 0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:38.560 for a while. 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:43.879 Yeah, Well it took a while before I started taking 0:26:43.920 --> 0:26:47.320 them because you know, I didn't have anyone prescribe them. 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:50.800 I mean, it took a while to find, you know, 0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:54.240 the right doctor to talk to about it and everything. 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:59.160 But one of them is supposed to target OCD, supposed 0:26:59.200 --> 0:26:59.880 to help with that. 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:01.280 So which one is that? 0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:04.199 Effects or is? 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:06.080 Okay? Yeah, I know what effects her is. 0:27:06.400 --> 0:27:08.880 Yeah, it's supposed to help with that. 0:27:09.800 --> 0:27:11.840 And you take something along with effects. 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:20.959 Or well, I'm kind of confused right now. That's what 0:27:21.000 --> 0:27:24.480 I'm talking to the Dodger about, is whether affectser is 0:27:24.520 --> 0:27:29.199 working on its own or if we need to, you know, 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:33.159 add something else or take something else instead. You have 0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:35.640 to try out a few different ones to see which 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:41.160 one works better. It sounds like you know this already. 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:43.719 Yeah, yeah I do, but I know my story. I'm 0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:51.600 getting your story. So you know, there's benefits to antidepressants, 0:27:52.119 --> 0:27:55.919 but I've never taken a drug without side effects. So 0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:01.440 do you find the antidepressants negative affect you in any way, 0:28:01.600 --> 0:28:04.280 creatively or in other ways. 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:11.399 No, it's I've just felt the positive effects which have 0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:16.720 been just lifting me out of this black I used 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:19.520 to call it a black cloud. You know that kind 0:28:19.560 --> 0:28:25.359 of settles over you and you know, just or having 0:28:25.400 --> 0:28:26.679 a sense of well being. 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.160 Was this something you felt from a young age. 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:37.960 I've probably had problems with that at a young age, 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:42.400 but just didn't recognize didn't know what it was, you know, 0:28:43.040 --> 0:28:46.040 just I probably looked at it more as mood swings, 0:28:46.680 --> 0:28:47.800 you know, that sort of thing. 0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:55.400 Were you ever in existential despair? Like maybe obviously you 0:28:55.440 --> 0:28:58.440 didn't commit suicide because you're still here, But was that 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:01.240 something you say like, man, I just can't take it anymore. 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:05.160 I felt like, man, I can't take it anymore. But 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:07.320 that was as far as it when it was that thought. 0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:10.200 We've all felt that way. 0:29:11.440 --> 0:29:14.040 I certainly think so. You know, it's hard to get 0:29:14.080 --> 0:29:19.479 an honest take from somebody. Let's switch gears to the beginning. 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:24.280 You're born in Louisiana, your father ends up working in Arkansas. 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:29.520 What the people from the north not get about those 0:29:29.560 --> 0:29:30.720 states in the South. 0:29:32.480 --> 0:29:38.320 Thank you for asking that. That's the million dollar question. Well, 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:43.680 what they don't get is that we're not all backwards. 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:48.720 We're not all lazy or stupid or uneducated. We're not 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:58.440 all races, okay, And I mean I was doing this 0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:00.640 kind of goes along with what you're at. I was 0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:05.719 doing an event one time where I was being interviewed 0:30:06.160 --> 0:30:09.800 in front of an audience, and I played some songs 0:30:09.840 --> 0:30:15.400 and then the interview is done as part of the performance, 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:19.480 and then the audience was allowed to ask me questions afterwards. 0:30:20.400 --> 0:30:25.479 And this woman leaned over and very seriously she asked. 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:29.960 She said, you know, I would really love to travel 0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:33.240 down south sometime. But she said, what I really want 0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:40.040 to know is is it safe? Right? I mean that 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:45.200 was of serious. That was you know, is it safe? Well, 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:47.760 you know that answers your question right there. 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.960 Well, I lived with a woman for years who was 0:30:52.000 --> 0:30:56.240 from Tallahassee, which certainly you can go back a couple 0:30:56.280 --> 0:31:01.440 of decades was more Georgia than South, and there were 0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:05.840 certain certain things who were defined. She would say, you know, 0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.040 it's getting cold in here. It took me a long 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:13.320 time race that man raised the window. We're in the north. 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:16.560 We would say, can you raise the window? But there 0:31:16.560 --> 0:31:19.640 would always be these little kids surround that you got 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:20.520 to pick up them. 0:31:20.520 --> 0:31:22.640 That's funny. 0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:30.360 And her father was extremely successful financially and ran in 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:35.560 that crowd and drinking was part of the culture. It 0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:37.640 was not a class thing whatsoever. 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:42.920 No, No, that's not a class thing because I grew 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:46.720 up with around all our of riders and they can 0:31:46.840 --> 0:31:53.440 certainly drink, they know how to drink. Yeah, I learned 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:57.040 how to drink probably, you know, hanging around in that crowd. 0:31:59.440 --> 0:32:04.560 And to what degree were you and still a consumer 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:05.240 of alcohol? 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:14.800 Not anymore than socially, you know, So you don't have. 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:16.040 An addictive personality? 0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:22.040 No, well I don't know. Maybe I do, but but 0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:24.680 I didn't get addicted to anything. 0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:28.640 So we're the exact same age. You're growing up in 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:35.080 Louisiana in the fifties and early sixties. What is it like? 0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:37.480 You say your family didn't have that much money, but 0:32:37.520 --> 0:32:41.920 you weren't aware of it. Were you into the modern 0:32:42.000 --> 0:32:43.880 music where you're listening to the Beach Boys in the 0:32:43.920 --> 0:32:47.360 Four Seasons where you're watching my three sons? What was 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:48.400 everyday life like? 0:32:50.560 --> 0:32:52.800 Well, you know, we all wanted it to be like 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:56.280 leave it to Beaver, but it was not Leave it 0:32:56.280 --> 0:33:00.760 to beaver. You know, there was no mom in a 0:33:00.880 --> 0:33:05.640 nice dress, wearing heels, fitzing dinner and that sort of thing. 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:08.760 You know, it was a little it could be a 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:13.200 little chaotic at times. You know. There was my dad, 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:16.880 who was a poet and a college professor, not making 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:22.200 that much money, married to a woman who had was 0:33:22.280 --> 0:33:28.720 dealing with mental illness a lot, and then three kids, 0:33:28.960 --> 0:33:32.440 you know, running around. I don't know how he did it. 0:33:32.520 --> 0:33:35.120 I mean, he would still be writing. I remember looking 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:37.800 seeing him sitting in a corner of the in the 0:33:37.840 --> 0:33:42.120 living room with his head bent down over a padded paper. 0:33:42.960 --> 0:33:49.120 You know. He was either reading or writing all the time. 0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:51.680 So he could tune out the chaos. 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:55.600 Yeah, yeah, he could tune out the chaos. And I 0:33:55.640 --> 0:33:57.000 wish I'd learned how to do that. 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:01.240 So you're someone who needs your own space, can't be interrupted. 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:07.480 Yeah, But my dad, at the same time, he was 0:34:07.720 --> 0:34:14.239 very we really bonded from an early age, and he 0:34:14.320 --> 0:34:19.239 was there for me, you know, when my mother might 0:34:19.280 --> 0:34:22.120 have just not been able to deal with things on 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:25.640 any given day, and my dad was always there. You know, 0:34:25.719 --> 0:34:30.719 he was very he stayed very aware, and he was 0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:38.680 very open minded and you know, very intelligent and understood 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:42.680 what was going on. You know. He was very empathetic 0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:47.279 towards my mother is the thing. So you know, we 0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:52.359 didn't go up with this feeling of you know, he 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:55.919 always said to the kids I had, there were three 0:34:55.960 --> 0:35:00.000 of us, I was the oldest. He always said to us, 0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:03.520 her fault. She can't help it, she's not well, you know, 0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:06.440 so we had somewhere to put it. 0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:14.560 Did your parents ultimately break up because your father met 0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:16.920 someone new or it was time? 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:24.640 That's a good question, because he did meet someone new, 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:30.120 but I think that was after they were already broken up. 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:31.720 I think it was because it was time. 0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:37.759 And how hard was that for him. 0:35:38.080 --> 0:35:41.400 I don't remember it being, you know, really heavy and 0:35:41.520 --> 0:35:46.680 traumatic or anything. As a kid, I remember feeling almost relieved, 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:51.120 you know, because there have been so much yelling and 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.400 fighting and all of that that I think I was 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:58.200 kind of relieved that that would be over with, you know, 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:03.080 we wouldn't have to listen to the arguing all the time. 0:36:04.520 --> 0:36:07.000 So your mother moves out. How much contact do you 0:36:07.040 --> 0:36:08.040 have with your mother then? 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:13.480 Quite a bit. She lived in New Orleans. After that, 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.000 she stayed, she loved it. She was from Louisiana, originally, 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:21.279 and her family was all there. So she lived in 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:25.439 New Orleans and I would go visit her from time 0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:30.360 to time and stay at her apartment, and you know, 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:39.320 we were close. You know, it was a challenging relationship 0:36:39.440 --> 0:36:43.200 and difficult at times, but you know I loved her 0:36:43.280 --> 0:36:47.640 and I knew she loved me, and you know, there 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:52.200 wasn't any acting out or anything on her part with me. 0:36:53.960 --> 0:36:55.600 She saved that for my dad. 0:36:56.000 --> 0:37:00.800 So when she moved out, she lived far away, New Orleans. 0:37:00.920 --> 0:37:06.040 And how often we were in Baton Rouge? Okay, the 0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:11.040 university LSU Louisiana State University is located there, and that's 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:14.640 when my dad was teaching, So we were living there, 0:37:14.920 --> 0:37:18.479 and she lived in New Orleans, which is right next 0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:21.840 to Baton Rouge. It's an easy drive. 0:37:23.400 --> 0:37:29.759 And how often would you see her, I don't know, 0:37:29.960 --> 0:37:33.239 probably once a month or something. And how often would 0:37:33.280 --> 0:37:35.840 you talk to her? 0:37:37.440 --> 0:37:40.760 Maybe once a week, It's hard to remember. 0:37:40.920 --> 0:37:43.960 And when you interacted with her, did you end up 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:45.160 being the parent. 0:37:46.360 --> 0:37:50.600 Sometimes? Yeah? I know all about that stuff. 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:56.960 Okay, So your father brings home one of his students 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:01.280 who is not even half a generation older than you are, 0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:07.120 and you're just hitting puberty yourself. How'd you cope with that? 0:38:07.320 --> 0:38:13.600 And could you ever accept it? 0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:17.200 It was difficult. I didn't. I tried to cope with it, 0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:21.680 but again, it was one of those kind of strained 0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:25.880 relationships where you know, I've wanted it to be a 0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:28.560 certain way, but it was you know, you can't really 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:33.160 take those things and force them into a certain place, 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:37.760 you know. I think she was trying really hard, maybe 0:38:37.840 --> 0:38:43.480 too hard, to you know, fill this certain role, and 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:50.200 I think I felt I remember feeling a little intimidated, 0:38:50.800 --> 0:38:55.360 a little shy around her, you know. 0:38:57.600 --> 0:39:00.920 And then as a young person in your living in Chile, 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.279 what's it like being an American living in Chile in 0:39:05.360 --> 0:39:08.439 a you know, a pre you know, modern technology era. 0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:15.839 Yeah, Well, we had a stereo system and I had 0:39:15.880 --> 0:39:19.239 Beatles albums. I was able to get a hold of 0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:24.040 him somehow or another and was listening to those NonStop. 0:39:25.880 --> 0:39:29.160 And there was a chile and folks sing were by 0:39:29.200 --> 0:39:33.719 the name of Violeta Potta, who I discovered while I 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:37.400 was living there, who I just absolutely loved, and she 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.719 was kind of like the John Bayez of Chile. My 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:46.320 dad was friends with. Her brother was the poet nikon 0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:51.239 Or PoTA, who my dad was, became close friends with 0:39:52.080 --> 0:39:54.160 and that's how I discovered VIOLETA. Potter. 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:58.800 Let's go back, how did you discover the Beatles? 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:02.960 Are we hearing them on the radio and falling in 0:40:03.000 --> 0:40:06.440 love with the songs and eventually, you know, getting the 0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:08.680 albums and or the singles? 0:40:10.560 --> 0:40:12.840 Were you definitely a Beatles girl as opposed to the 0:40:12.960 --> 0:40:13.720 Rolling Stones? 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:18.880 Yeah? I was a Beatles girl and then I was 0:40:18.880 --> 0:40:22.000 a Rolling Stones squirl. I mean it sort of happened 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:25.200 at the same time, you know, But I loved the 0:40:25.280 --> 0:40:27.839 Rolling Stones, loved and loved them. 0:40:27.960 --> 0:40:32.200 Okay, So if you were in high school, how would 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.800 you be described? What kind of person? 0:40:37.560 --> 0:40:43.600 Creative? Friendly, cute? 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.319 Well? Were you one of those people they say, well, 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.360 she's hip and cool, but she's hangs with the yard crowd, 0:40:52.400 --> 0:40:56.560 or she hangs with us, she's one of us, or 0:40:56.640 --> 0:40:59.960 she's you know, two cool, she's hanging with the cheerleaders. 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:01.200 Where were you? 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:06.600 No, God, I was not with the cheerleaders. I was 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:10.279 not with the with the gym crowd. You know. The 0:41:10.360 --> 0:41:14.200 working out I failed. I got zero's in Jim. I 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:18.040 hated it. I tried to be on the girls softball 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:23.359 team and that failed. Miserably because they were so competitive 0:41:23.400 --> 0:41:28.160 and so mean spirited. I didn't like mean spirited people. 0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:34.360 I actually had a lot of guys as friends and 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:35.920 I would hang out with them a lot. 0:41:37.360 --> 0:41:40.040 Are you physically active, No, you had a stroke, But 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:42.880 before and after that, are you physically active? 0:41:44.320 --> 0:41:47.000 Yeah? Right now I'm working out with the trainer and 0:41:48.120 --> 0:41:53.680 lifting weights in the gym. It's a combination. I'm working 0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:58.440 with somebody who's a physical fitness trainer as well as 0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:05.360 a physical therapist. 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:10.400 Okay, so what point do you pick up the guitar? 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:18.600 When I was twelve ninety sixty five, which is the 0:42:18.640 --> 0:42:23.560 height of the folk music boom, which I was really into. 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:30.000 And tell me about moving to Mexico. 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:37.880 Yeah, that was my dad received a grant to go 0:42:38.400 --> 0:42:40.440 teach in Mexico for a year and live there or 0:42:40.520 --> 0:42:43.719 for a year. That's a lot of the reasons we 0:42:43.719 --> 0:42:50.440 were in other countries was he would receive these, you know, 0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:55.879 visiting professorship grants. I'm not sure what they were called, 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.720 but some kind of grant to go live in another 0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:02.160 country and teach there, work there for the time he 0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:02.640 was there. 0:43:04.000 --> 0:43:06.880 And do you speak fluent Spanish? 0:43:07.000 --> 0:43:09.840 I can get by. I wouldn't say it was fluid, 0:43:10.000 --> 0:43:14.480 but you know, because I forget a lot of my verbs. 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:18.359 If I lived somewhere for a while right now where 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:20.439 I had to speak Spanish all the time, I would 0:43:20.520 --> 0:43:22.960 probably it would improve. 0:43:26.000 --> 0:43:29.640 Okay, So you get a guitar. Is it a nylon 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:32.800 string wide necked folk guitar? Is it a narrow string 0:43:32.880 --> 0:43:33.600 steel guitar? 0:43:35.600 --> 0:43:42.360 It's a it's an acoustic, but just a regular steel 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:46.680 string acoustic guitar from what I understand, from what I remember, 0:43:47.520 --> 0:43:51.799 one of my dad's writing friends, his name was Bill Harrison. 0:43:53.040 --> 0:43:56.279 He wrote a book called Rollerball, which was made into 0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:02.319 a movie, and another book called Pretty Baby, which was 0:44:02.320 --> 0:44:05.520 made into a movie also, And he was a really 0:44:05.640 --> 0:44:10.480 close old friend of my dad's. And from what I understand, 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:13.040 he had left a guitar. He had this old broken 0:44:13.120 --> 0:44:17.160 guitar that he left at the house one day and 0:44:17.239 --> 0:44:19.600 I picked it up and just you know, looked at 0:44:19.719 --> 0:44:22.680 it and tried to play it a little. My dad 0:44:22.800 --> 0:44:26.720 saw me have an interest in it and he bought 0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:30.680 me a Dad ended up buying me a silver tone 0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:36.040 guitar from Sears and Roebuck. That was my first guitar. 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:38.960 And how did you learn how to play it. 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:45.319 Well, I got dad got me this guy to come 0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:49.200 over once a week who taught guitar lessons, and he 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:53.440 was he had a rock band in town, and he 0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:56.560 was also a creative writing student. So he had been 0:44:56.800 --> 0:45:00.799 he had been at some of my dad's classes, and 0:45:01.320 --> 0:45:04.520 I guess they had been talking, and you know, he said, well, 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:09.920 I give guitar lesson. So, you know, my dad arrange 0:45:09.920 --> 0:45:11.919 for her to come over the house once a week 0:45:12.040 --> 0:45:16.920 and sit with me and give me guitar lessons. And 0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:19.440 it took okay. 0:45:19.960 --> 0:45:24.320 So in the mid to late sixties, someone would play 0:45:24.360 --> 0:45:26.840 the guitar. You would go to somebody's house and everybody 0:45:26.880 --> 0:45:29.920 would sit there and would sing. Were you the person 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:32.040 who would bring the guitar and sing? 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:36.400 Yeah, I was the person who would bring. Or they 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:41.359 would come over our house and we'd be sitting around 0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:44.000 in the living room. My dad would lean over to 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:46.120 me and say, honey, why don't you go get your 0:45:46.160 --> 0:45:49.080 guitar and come sing a couple of songs. He was 0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:51.920 real proud of me, and I guess he kind of 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:55.400 liked to show me off a little bit. And I 0:45:55.400 --> 0:45:58.279 would go and get my guitar. You know, it would 0:45:58.320 --> 0:45:59.960 be in another room of the house, and so I'd 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:03.560 go get it and come back, and so I had 0:46:03.600 --> 0:46:06.640 a What that meant was that my first audience was 0:46:06.719 --> 0:46:13.759 comprised of these brilliant minds, you know, these writers who 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:17.960 knew everything there was to know about literature and writing, 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:25.439 and they're listening to me, and you know, I mean 0:46:25.960 --> 0:46:30.719 I was still developing, trying to find my voice. And 0:46:30.960 --> 0:46:34.440 what I remember at the very beginning was, you know, 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.960 people coming over to me and saying, kind of patting 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:46.120 my shoulder, is saying, you know, telling me I had soul, 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:52.520 which basically meant I wasn't there yet, but keep going 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:56.279 because there was something there. You know, they could hear 0:46:56.400 --> 0:47:00.440 something in there, even though I hadn't perfected it yet. 0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:03.799 I mean, I certainly wasn't joined by Azer Judy Collins. 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:12.640 What's the difference between Louisiana and Arkansas, Baton Rouge and Fayetteville. 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:17.120 That is such a good question. I wish more people 0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:20.719 would ask questions like that, because you know, a lot 0:47:20.760 --> 0:47:23.600 of people think the South is it's all the same 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:27.640 in the South, and that's so not true. It's probably 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:31.720 similar to like I want I might ask or wonder, 0:47:31.960 --> 0:47:41.479 what's the difference between Maryland and Connecticut or something like that. 0:47:41.600 --> 0:47:47.720 You know, well, the food would be, you know, the 0:47:47.719 --> 0:47:54.200 food that was the history of food that you know. 0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:57.239 I mean, these are modern times now, so you might 0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:01.840 not find this true now, but like back in the 0:48:01.880 --> 0:48:06.200 fifties and sixties, you could probably find more of a 0:48:06.280 --> 0:48:11.600 difference between the states. But I mean that's true everywhere. 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:16.440 I think. Now, you know, things have become more homogenized, 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:21.120 and you know, like the strip malls across America and 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:25.080 that sort of thing. Those have taken over. So now 0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:29.080 you can't tell the difference as much. But back when 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:33.439 you had the mom and pop stores and the mom 0:48:33.480 --> 0:48:36.719 and pop cafes and restaurants, that's when you would be 0:48:36.719 --> 0:48:40.719 able to tell the difference more. Probably like Louisiana, you 0:48:40.760 --> 0:48:45.719 would find more seafood and shell fish dishes that kind 0:48:45.760 --> 0:48:50.600 of thing. You know. Well, it's because of the Cajun influence, 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.480 the Creole influence. 0:48:55.920 --> 0:48:57.880 And what was Faydeville like, And. 0:48:59.760 --> 0:49:05.880 It was a beautiful, almost ideal with little town sitting 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:11.640 in the Ozarks, an incredibly beautiful area the Ozark Mountains, 0:49:12.520 --> 0:49:18.959 you know, and the campus was a beautiful campus, very 0:49:19.000 --> 0:49:24.880 progressive town. Like if you were going to live in Arkansas, 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:29.480 you would want to live in Fayetteville, probably because politically 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.920 it was more progressive than the rest of the state. 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:38.239 You know, Bill Clinton was from Arkansas and he and 0:49:38.320 --> 0:49:39.760 my dad got to be friends. 0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:43.040 When did they become friends winning Bill's. 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:47.680 Career, well, probably during the time I think when he 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:52.799 was governor and at a certain point then during that 0:49:52.960 --> 0:50:03.200 time and and you know, there have been some really 0:50:03.280 --> 0:50:13.360 talented famous people from Arkansas at Glenn Campbell and the 0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:21.799 people there are just really cool, friendly. It seems to 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:26.600 be a creative bunch. But that might be because I was, 0:50:26.719 --> 0:50:29.799 you know, we were my dad was at the university there, 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:33.920 and it was a college town, and you know, like 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:39.320 most college towns, there are a lot of progressive people 0:50:39.400 --> 0:50:43.719 living there or working at the university or students going 0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:49.680 to school there. You know, so lots of pot smoking, 0:50:49.880 --> 0:50:57.040 lots of the seventies was a pretty really creative time 0:50:57.080 --> 0:51:00.520 to be there. There are a lot of hippies people 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:05.640 moving there because they could get land pretty cheaply, and 0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:09.919 you know, these the hippie tots would be moving there 0:51:10.000 --> 0:51:14.120 and building these little cabins out in the country and 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:14.959 that sort of thing. 0:51:16.960 --> 0:51:20.000 You keep on talking about your father's friends. Was he 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:23.799 the type of person who was collecting friends in the 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:26.799 center of the universe, always had an entourage. What was 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:27.600 that going on? 0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:33.759 Yes, he loved he loved to do that. Yeah. 0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:36.759 And what was the food like back in the day 0:51:36.800 --> 0:51:39.719 in Arkansas as opposed to Louisiana. 0:51:41.800 --> 0:51:45.080 It was probably more well, of course, depending on where 0:51:45.080 --> 0:51:53.799 you went, but the native food would have been, you know, 0:51:54.040 --> 0:52:04.320 like country cooking, you know, tam bashed potatoes, black eyed peas, 0:52:07.120 --> 0:52:07.919 that sort of thing. 0:52:09.160 --> 0:52:12.279 Okay, you're in an era, you're a little young, but 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:15.400 this is when all the racial stuff is happening in 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:20.120 the South. A lot is happening in Mississippi. Yeah, there's 0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:22.480 a lot happening in Memphis, was just over the river 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:27.719 from Arkansas. What was your experience with racial unrest and 0:52:27.800 --> 0:52:32.280 the quest for equal rights for all? 0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:39.000 Yeah, well, I mean I remember it being just part 0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:45.120 of the culture. There was a white's only sign. I 0:52:45.160 --> 0:52:48.520 remember as when I was in high school. I'd seen 0:52:48.560 --> 0:52:53.040 it somewhere on the outside of a shop. It said 0:52:53.080 --> 0:52:56.239 whites only, or you know, you would see that from 0:52:56.320 --> 0:52:59.400 time to time. And my boyfriend and I jumped at 0:52:59.400 --> 0:53:03.480 our bicules and rode over there was spray spray painted 0:53:03.560 --> 0:53:09.399 over it. And my high school was I was very 0:53:09.440 --> 0:53:17.760 active as a teenager protest movements and marches and demonstrations 0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:19.680 and all of that. I jumped into all of that 0:53:19.760 --> 0:53:24.520 with great fervor. And my high school. A couple of 0:53:24.520 --> 0:53:27.560 times I showed up at school and the kids would 0:53:27.560 --> 0:53:36.120 be marching around the school as a protest. It was 0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:38.640 almost like the union or it was almost like a 0:53:38.680 --> 0:53:41.520 picket line where you didn't want to cross through, you know. 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:46.360 Okay. I was living in Connecticut at that particular time, 0:53:47.160 --> 0:53:51.160 and there was a lot big social movement. We were protesting, 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:55.719 and there were people on the other side, but we 0:53:55.800 --> 0:53:59.200 get the impression as you went down South, the people 0:53:59.280 --> 0:54:03.280 on the other side had more fervor, were more pissed 0:54:03.320 --> 0:54:06.840 about the people who were progressive. Is that true? 0:54:09.920 --> 0:54:12.160 You mean the people who are the racist people? 0:54:12.960 --> 0:54:16.200 Well, yeah, the people who didn't like you protesting. 0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:23.520 Oh you mean racist rednecks in the South. Yes, go 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:27.440 ahead and say it, go ahead and say that's okay. 0:54:27.800 --> 0:54:30.200 So what was it like being you know, you're a 0:54:30.239 --> 0:54:34.480 big liberal protesting against the war and for women's rights, etc. 0:54:35.160 --> 0:54:37.719 What are the racist rednecks have to say about that? 0:54:39.000 --> 0:54:43.839 They weren't real happy, just like you said. I think 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:49.240 that was a global issue, you know, at the time. 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:54.799 So you moved to Mexico with your father, and you 0:54:54.880 --> 0:54:57.640 don't go to school, no. 0:54:57.719 --> 0:55:01.719 Because I couldn't. I'd been keep out of school for 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:08.279 being involved in these demonstrations in Marshes and as a 0:55:08.320 --> 0:55:12.239 form of protest. One morning in school, I refused to 0:55:12.239 --> 0:55:17.440 save the pledge of allegiance because we're in Vietnam, and 0:55:17.480 --> 0:55:22.680 I was kicked. They added that to my suspension and 0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:26.120 I went home and my dad said, that's okay, honey, 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:31.440 We'll get you an ACLU lawyer, you know, and he did, 0:55:31.880 --> 0:55:35.799 and it proved to be unconstitutional. So I got let 0:55:35.840 --> 0:55:40.560 back in school. But because i'd been suspended or expelled, 0:55:40.640 --> 0:55:43.719 I didn't have my pay proper paperwork to be able 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:48.200 to get into school in Mexico. So I was just 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:50.600 out of school the entire year that I would have 0:55:50.680 --> 0:55:55.240 been a senior in high school. And I just read. 0:55:55.560 --> 0:56:01.080 I became a voracious reader, and you know, listen to 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:07.080 my records and play guitar and learned songs and I 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:10.520 was very productive actually during that year out of school. 0:56:12.120 --> 0:56:14.920 So are you still a big reader today? 0:56:15.680 --> 0:56:18.359 Probably? Not as much, because I had so much more 0:56:18.440 --> 0:56:23.320 free time back then than I do now. It's usually 0:56:23.440 --> 0:56:28.520 now a toss up between reading or working on a song. 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:33.960 Okay, you're in Mexico. This is when you first start 0:56:34.040 --> 0:56:36.800 to play out. Yeah, how did that happen? 0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:42.200 Well, that was me sitting in the living room performing 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:46.120 with There was a friend of the families who his 0:56:46.239 --> 0:56:49.440 name was Clark Jones, who we'd met in Arkansas, or 0:56:49.480 --> 0:56:52.640 meeting in New Orleans when we were living there, and 0:56:53.440 --> 0:56:55.480 I think he was a friend of my mother's in 0:56:55.520 --> 0:56:59.640 the beginning. And he was a folk, a bonafide folk, 0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:04.960 and he's sort of reminded me of somebody like Pete Seeger. 0:57:05.680 --> 0:57:17.120 He could play multiple instruments, guitar, ukulele, auto harp, and 0:57:17.360 --> 0:57:20.920 he knew all these old folk songs, the traditional folk songs, 0:57:22.640 --> 0:57:24.800 and so we would sit around and play music in 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:28.560 the house. And he came to visit us in Mexico 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:33.360 and we were performing in the living room for friends 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:36.000 of the families, friends of my dad's. One of the 0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:38.560 guys who was over at the house at night worked 0:57:38.600 --> 0:57:43.480 for the State Department, and Clark and I sat and 0:57:43.520 --> 0:57:49.040 sang some songs and the State department. Guy said to 0:57:49.080 --> 0:57:55.040 my dad, Wow, this sounds pretty they sound pretty good. 0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:58.960 What if we I've got an idea, why don't we? 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:02.800 Min Or and I try to get set up some 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:08.120 shows for them to perform around Mexico at different schools 0:58:08.560 --> 0:58:12.919 and places. And he figured it would be a good 0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:18.080 you know, like an ambassadorship kind of, you know, a 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:26.280 good way to improved the relationship between the United States 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:31.760 and Mexico. And so that's what we did. So Clark 0:58:31.880 --> 0:58:36.000 drove his little car and I sat in the front seat, 0:58:36.080 --> 0:58:42.920 and we stayed in motels and roadside ends and you know, 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:48.560 and did these shows as a duo Clark Jones. They 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:53.720 called me Cindy Williams back then, and the Mexican audience 0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:56.680 just loved it. They just ate it up. We did 0:58:57.040 --> 0:59:00.400 Bob Dylan songs at Peter Paul and Mary and I 0:59:00.520 --> 0:59:02.200 wasn't really riding at that time. 0:59:04.920 --> 0:59:08.840 And you were living in Mexico where you're smoking dope. 0:59:09.200 --> 0:59:12.760 Yeah. I used to help meet with these kids in 0:59:12.800 --> 0:59:17.080 the park not too far from our house, and these 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:22.760 Mexican hippie kids smoke pot and they would always try 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:26.720 to get me to go to Wahaka for the mushrooms, 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:34.040 you know, they would say, come on, Tony was you know, 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:38.640 we have to go to Wahaca for the mushrooms. And 0:59:38.680 --> 0:59:42.480 there was this one guy who I was attracted to, 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:49.000 and he kept saying he wanted to tenero sexel qiero sexel, 0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:53.720 I want to have sex. And you know, I knew 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:56.120 what that meant at the time, but it wasn't going 0:59:56.200 --> 0:59:59.520 to happen. And my dad found out I was smoking 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:03.040 pot in the park and he got upset, not because 1:00:03.040 --> 1:00:05.720 of the pot, but he said, you know, I could 1:00:05.760 --> 1:00:08.840 get deported and lose my job and it would just 1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:13.080 mess everything up. And he was more comfortable with me 1:00:13.200 --> 1:00:17.320 staying at home doing these things, you know, drinking and 1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:18.680 smoking pot or whatever. 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:23.000 You come back from Mexico, you finish high school, you 1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:26.680 go to college for like ten minutes, and you drop out. 1:00:27.200 --> 1:00:29.560 In the book you say that your father says, it's okay. 1:00:30.000 --> 1:00:33.560 I mean, on the surface, your father's an academic. Both 1:00:33.560 --> 1:00:36.000 your parents are college graduates. What do they say about 1:00:36.040 --> 1:00:38.120 their oldest daughter says no way. 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:46.960 Well, yeah, my dad was very patient and empathetic when 1:00:46.960 --> 1:00:49.400 it came to grades. When I was in high school, 1:00:49.840 --> 1:00:54.120 for instance, I didn't do well in math I did. 1:00:54.640 --> 1:01:02.320 I did well in languages. Not good with numbers, good 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:07.400 with language, you know. And he was saying, well, that's okay. 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:10.560 As long as I was good in certain things, as 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:14.840 long as I was thriving in certain subjects, he was okay. 1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:19.440 He didn't expect me to be one hundred percent with everything, 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:24.880 and he just he understood. He just got things, he understood. 1:01:24.920 --> 1:01:27.600 That's why one reason I loved it and looked up 1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:32.560 to him so much. This I'm not sure about. I'm 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:35.480 not sure when you were talking about when I went 1:01:35.520 --> 1:01:36.720 to college for ten minutes. 1:01:37.000 --> 1:01:38.480 Well, I mean it sounds like from one of the 1:01:38.520 --> 1:01:40.960 book that you went for like a semester and then 1:01:41.000 --> 1:01:44.120 you went dropped out, went to New Orleans. 1:01:45.120 --> 1:01:48.720 Something like that. Yeah. I went for about a year 1:01:49.000 --> 1:01:53.760 to the University of Arkansas, and then at mid semester, 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:56.400 I went and visited my mother in New Orleans, and 1:01:57.080 --> 1:02:01.800 I was offered this job and a little little place 1:02:01.880 --> 1:02:06.400 called Andy's on Bourbon Street. And that was when I 1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:09.080 called my dad and I was supposed to go back 1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:11.000 to school in the fall. This would have been in 1:02:11.000 --> 1:02:15.160 the summer, but I wanted to stay in New Orleans 1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:22.120 and play music at this little place for tips instead 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:26.680 of going back to school. And he said, okay, he 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:30.000 just got it. He understood because he was an artist also, 1:02:30.080 --> 1:02:30.880 he was a poet. 1:02:38.240 --> 1:02:42.040 When did you have the inspiration that you would be 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:46.880 a professional musician, that you wanted to be an artist? 1:02:47.800 --> 1:02:51.320 Yeah, well there was the time when I wanted to 1:02:51.360 --> 1:02:54.040 be the feeling of I want to do this, and 1:02:54.080 --> 1:02:57.000 then there was I'm actually going to make this happen 1:02:57.640 --> 1:03:00.680 or this is actually going to happen. You know, those 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:01.840 were two different times. 1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:03.720 Well, tell me about those two times. 1:03:05.240 --> 1:03:09.520 Well, the first time was when I was twelve or 1:03:09.520 --> 1:03:13.280 twelve and a half and I heard Highway sixty one 1:03:13.360 --> 1:03:16.600 were visited for the first time, which was also the 1:03:16.640 --> 1:03:20.680 first time I heard Bob Dylan, and it, you know, 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:25.760 just rearranged my brain cells. I didn't understand all the 1:03:25.840 --> 1:03:29.400 lyrics at the time, but it didn't matter. You know. 1:03:29.800 --> 1:03:33.560 It had an effect on me in a big way, 1:03:34.560 --> 1:03:37.200 and I decided at that point that I wanted to 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:39.240 be able to write songs like that and do what 1:03:39.320 --> 1:03:44.480 he was doing. And what I saw him doing was 1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:52.320 taking basically taking something like poetry and setting it to 1:03:55.040 --> 1:04:00.600 folk rock music. And I just the comment of those 1:04:00.600 --> 1:04:06.920 two things just completely blew my mind and I understood 1:04:06.920 --> 1:04:09.200 it on some level, even though it was only twelve, 1:04:09.960 --> 1:04:16.400 but I understood what he was doing artistically musically, and 1:04:16.440 --> 1:04:17.520 it really appealed to me. 1:04:18.960 --> 1:04:23.120 So that was the inspiration. When did you say this 1:04:23.280 --> 1:04:24.600 is a direction I'm going to go? 1:04:26.280 --> 1:04:31.720 That was the same time. That was the inspiration and 1:04:32.160 --> 1:04:33.360 the direction I wanted to go. 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:37.560 So when you're in New Orleans playing for tips, what's 1:04:37.600 --> 1:04:39.680 going through your mind in terms of your career? 1:04:42.200 --> 1:04:46.320 Probably that you know, I was playing performing by myself, 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:51.920 accompanying myself on guitar that maybe, you know, wouldn't it 1:04:52.000 --> 1:04:54.240 be great if I had a band like Bob Dylan 1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:57.560 had or something like that, you know, Or wouldn't it 1:04:57.560 --> 1:05:01.120 be great if people were listening instead of talking in 1:05:01.200 --> 1:05:06.760 the audience. And then over time, you know, that happened. 1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:11.520 I put a band together, and then you know, I 1:05:11.600 --> 1:05:15.880 remember the first time I performed somewhere when people actually 1:05:16.000 --> 1:05:18.120 knew who I was and listened. 1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:19.080 And when was that? 1:05:24.560 --> 1:05:28.880 Probably the eighties, sometime like maybe after that Reugh Trade 1:05:28.920 --> 1:05:29.920 album came out. 1:05:30.160 --> 1:05:32.919 So that was a long time where they weren't listening. Yeah, 1:05:33.120 --> 1:05:36.160 tell us about making the two Folk wse albums. 1:05:36.760 --> 1:05:41.360 Yeah, those were that was almost a well. I remember 1:05:41.800 --> 1:05:44.400 there was a friend of mine who had met in 1:05:44.480 --> 1:05:49.760 New Orleans by the name of Jeff Ampulsk, and he 1:05:49.800 --> 1:05:53.560 had recorded an album. He was a singer songwriter, you know, 1:05:53.720 --> 1:05:58.040 not known or anything. He was just getting started and 1:05:58.640 --> 1:06:01.760 he had made an album for Folkways, and he and 1:06:01.800 --> 1:06:04.120 I were talking on the phone one day. I was 1:06:04.400 --> 1:06:08.280 at my dad's house in Fayetteville and Jeff and I 1:06:08.360 --> 1:06:11.040 were on the phone and he said, you know, you 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:14.000 could probably make a record for folk Ways. And I said, really, 1:06:14.120 --> 1:06:16.800 you think so? And he said, yeah, I just send 1:06:16.840 --> 1:06:20.600 him a cassette tape and I bet they'll like it 1:06:20.680 --> 1:06:25.560 and they'll make a record with you. And I said okay. 1:06:25.680 --> 1:06:30.760 So he gave me their information and I made a 1:06:30.800 --> 1:06:34.320 little cassette tape of songs and sent it to Moe 1:06:34.360 --> 1:06:38.880 Ash at folk Ways Records, and sure enough they sent 1:06:38.960 --> 1:06:41.520 me back a one page contract and a check for 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:47.000 two hundred and fifty dollars, and I managed to, with 1:06:47.080 --> 1:06:49.960 the help of some friends, managed to scrape together some 1:06:50.040 --> 1:06:57.200 studio time at Malaco Studios in Jackson, Mississippi. Because my 1:06:57.320 --> 1:07:02.240 dad had a close friend who had connects there. He 1:07:02.240 --> 1:07:06.560 helped make that happen. So I went down there and 1:07:07.040 --> 1:07:12.200 recorded my first album, which was called Rambling on my Mind. 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.880 After that Bob d I mean after that Robert Johnson's song, 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.840 and I went in one afternoon just with another guy 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:25.040 named John Grimauda who is from Houston, Texas. He played 1:07:25.080 --> 1:07:28.160 really good blues guitar and he played he accompanied me 1:07:28.240 --> 1:07:30.560 on on the songs. 1:07:32.240 --> 1:07:35.480 So you have finished the tape, you sent it to 1:07:35.600 --> 1:07:39.320 folk Way's Records. If you went to your local record store, 1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:40.240 did they have it. 1:07:42.320 --> 1:07:47.000 Well, eventually they did. You know, if they carried records 1:07:47.040 --> 1:07:50.280 like that, yeah, they would have it. The independent record 1:07:50.320 --> 1:07:52.400 stores would have it usually. 1:07:52.840 --> 1:07:56.800 Well, did you feel any buzz from having made that record. 1:07:58.920 --> 1:08:05.400 Just locally? You know, maybe locally and regionally around you 1:08:05.440 --> 1:08:07.840 know where I was, where I would be playing live. 1:08:09.920 --> 1:08:13.200 Eventually I moved to Austin, Texas, and I lived in 1:08:13.280 --> 1:08:16.400 Austin and Houston for a number of years, and that's 1:08:16.479 --> 1:08:20.120 where I would have felt that little buzz, just on 1:08:20.160 --> 1:08:20.839 that level. 1:08:22.320 --> 1:08:26.400 So you go to New York. You have these two guys, 1:08:26.439 --> 1:08:29.160 they put up money for a demo. No one wants 1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:33.720 to make a record with you, and you know, do 1:08:33.720 --> 1:08:35.559 you ever think man, I'm gonna hang it up. 1:08:37.120 --> 1:08:40.400 It crossed my mind, but I didn't want to. I 1:08:40.520 --> 1:08:44.600 just I don't know. I guess I was, well, I 1:08:44.680 --> 1:08:50.120 see expression fool hardy and something fancy free and fool 1:08:50.160 --> 1:08:53.160 hardy or something, you know. I just I felt like 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:55.640 it was going to happen at some point because I 1:08:55.680 --> 1:08:59.200 had all these people around me encouraging me a lot, 1:09:00.880 --> 1:09:02.280 and that kept me going. 1:09:03.120 --> 1:09:09.160 Meanwhile, you're working minimum wage jobs. Yeah, minimum wage jobs 1:09:09.160 --> 1:09:10.560 are not that fun. 1:09:10.960 --> 1:09:15.200 No, But you know, every other musician I knew was 1:09:15.240 --> 1:09:19.040 working those kind of jobs, and it just came with 1:09:19.120 --> 1:09:23.160 the you know, it's part of the package. That's just 1:09:23.200 --> 1:09:24.160 what you have to do. 1:09:26.360 --> 1:09:29.920 So you weren't saying I'd like to have a house 1:09:30.000 --> 1:09:32.840 a new car. You were saying, this is what I'm doing. 1:09:33.640 --> 1:09:37.519 Yeah, I mean I was probably thinking that in the 1:09:37.600 --> 1:09:38.760 back of my mind. 1:09:41.320 --> 1:09:46.320 And then tell us about moving to La. 1:09:46.479 --> 1:09:50.400 Well, I had some close friends who were real supportive 1:09:50.439 --> 1:09:55.080 of me and my music, and one of them was 1:09:56.280 --> 1:09:59.840 trying to become a manager in the music business. See, 1:10:00.280 --> 1:10:03.639 he actually ended up working with me for a little 1:10:03.640 --> 1:10:08.760 bit and he encouraged me to come out there. You know, 1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:11.320 I think I just went initially went out there to play. 1:10:12.280 --> 1:10:15.160 He helped set up a gig for me out there, 1:10:17.880 --> 1:10:19.519 But in the back of my mind, I think I 1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:22.479 was thinking I was probably gonna stay. I didn't know 1:10:22.600 --> 1:10:25.679 for sure, but I went out there and I actually 1:10:25.840 --> 1:10:30.600 liked it a lot. I like the people on that 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:34.759 I like the weather. Of course, everybody says that it's true, 1:10:35.080 --> 1:10:40.080 but the music scene was really viable and exciting. I 1:10:40.120 --> 1:10:43.679 felt like there are a lot of great artists playing 1:10:43.720 --> 1:10:47.720 around the city at that time, like Dave Alvin and 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:52.360 the Blasters, and you know, the local music scene was 1:10:53.200 --> 1:10:57.160 just fabulous at that time in Houston, and it was 1:10:57.400 --> 1:11:03.000 very eclectic. You know, there were these different kinds of 1:11:03.080 --> 1:11:08.120 music that were blending together, and bands like The Lonesome 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:14.919 Strangers who played a hybrid of you know, a hybrid 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:19.680 version of country and punk. They used to call it cowpunk. 1:11:22.000 --> 1:11:24.479 You know. It's kind of like country music sped up 1:11:24.520 --> 1:11:30.559 real fast, and I would open shows for those guys sometimes, 1:11:30.600 --> 1:11:36.760 and you know, Rosie Flores was getting going, you know, 1:11:36.840 --> 1:11:39.759 she was creating a pretty good buzz, and Dwight Yoakum 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:43.000 was getting ready to hit really big at that time, 1:11:43.760 --> 1:11:47.080 and then there were all these other like on the 1:11:47.200 --> 1:11:50.200 fringe kind of rock bands like Grin on Red and 1:11:50.920 --> 1:11:54.080 Blood on the Saddle, and they were kind of pump 1:11:54.200 --> 1:11:59.400 based roots like roots of music mixed with punk kind 1:11:59.439 --> 1:12:05.000 of well punk Israeli roots music initially. But you know, 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:09.280 so that was going on a lot back then, So 1:12:09.520 --> 1:12:13.160 there was an openness happening in that scene that it 1:12:13.240 --> 1:12:19.080 really appealed to me, and a lot of places to play. 1:12:20.040 --> 1:12:21.880 Okay, just to be clear, you said, you said, you 1:12:21.960 --> 1:12:25.519 mean lost. This is all happening in Los Angeles. But 1:12:25.800 --> 1:12:29.280 the late seventies early eighties, there's a ton of bands, 1:12:29.320 --> 1:12:32.880 all the acts you mentioned, and there's a thin layer 1:12:32.960 --> 1:12:38.320 that gets signed and then the others seemed to work 1:12:38.439 --> 1:12:42.080 for a while and then spread apart, but you don't 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:47.120 get a deal, right, How depressing is yeah? 1:12:47.479 --> 1:12:52.600 Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because that hybrid 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:58.080 thing that I was talking about also could have applied 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:01.920 to me because I was met sing country with rock, 1:13:03.000 --> 1:13:05.800 you know, but or they said, actually I fell on 1:13:05.880 --> 1:13:09.400 the cracks between country and rock, and you know, they 1:13:09.400 --> 1:13:10.040 didn't know what to. 1:13:10.040 --> 1:13:14.240 Do with that, you know, And you mentioned this in 1:13:14.280 --> 1:13:16.439 the book that the record company people are full of 1:13:16.439 --> 1:13:19.200 shit and don't know what's going on. But did you 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:21.800 ever sit at home and say, I know what they're 1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:23.679 looking for. I'm going to write a hit, and that'll 1:13:23.720 --> 1:13:25.080 get my foot in the door. 1:13:26.240 --> 1:13:29.240 You know, that's just it, Bob. I didn't know how 1:13:29.280 --> 1:13:32.080 to write a hit. I would love to write a 1:13:32.160 --> 1:13:34.479 hit song if I could figure out how to do it, 1:13:35.120 --> 1:13:38.240 you know. But no, I didn't think that because I 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:43.720 was an died in the wool rebel. I think I 1:13:43.760 --> 1:13:45.200 was probably born a rebel. 1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:48.920 Okay, it's seventy years old. Are you still a rebel? 1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:49.800 Hell? 1:13:49.920 --> 1:13:50.160 Yes? 1:13:52.080 --> 1:13:54.679 Or as they say, hell to the yell? 1:13:56.160 --> 1:14:00.960 How would that manifest itself at everyday life? 1:14:01.200 --> 1:14:03.960 Oh? God, you probably need to talk to people who 1:14:04.000 --> 1:14:09.479 live with me. I don't know. I've just you know, 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:13.000 the record you have to remember like back then at least, 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:15.360 and it's still that way, I guess to some degree. 1:14:15.400 --> 1:14:19.519 But you know, there was that feeling of them and us. 1:14:19.760 --> 1:14:23.920 You know, it's like we're the artists. You know, we're 1:14:23.960 --> 1:14:28.440 the creators, we're the magic makers. Those guys are the 1:14:28.479 --> 1:14:34.520 corporate business makers, and they don't know anything about creativity 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:38.880 and art and music or anything, you know, record company people, 1:14:40.240 --> 1:14:45.360 you know, they're just it's there was this wall between 1:14:46.080 --> 1:14:48.920 the artists and the record company guys. Which isn't to 1:14:48.960 --> 1:14:51.360 say that there weren't some really good people in the 1:14:51.400 --> 1:14:56.040 record company business. There were some great ones, and still 1:14:56.080 --> 1:15:01.680 are some good ones, but far and few between. You know, 1:15:01.840 --> 1:15:06.240 most of them were thinking about the dollar, not how 1:15:06.360 --> 1:15:09.400 creative something or how good something is creatively. 1:15:10.520 --> 1:15:15.240 You know, from my perch at this late date, the 1:15:15.360 --> 1:15:20.439 artists changed. Where the rebel spirit that you embody and 1:15:20.600 --> 1:15:25.760 was in Texas for a few decades, everybody moved to 1:15:25.800 --> 1:15:28.280 the center. It's almost like politics. It's like, you know, 1:15:28.840 --> 1:15:31.719 the mainstream Democrat was let me say, like Nixon would 1:15:31.720 --> 1:15:34.240 be a Democrat today, which is hard to believe. 1:15:35.120 --> 1:15:36.719 God, that's a scary thought. 1:15:37.479 --> 1:15:41.800 All the artists, you know, Yeah, they don't want to 1:15:41.840 --> 1:15:43.880 be too edgy, you know, or else there are people 1:15:43.920 --> 1:15:47.000 with no talent or complaining and that's all thing unto itself. 1:15:47.600 --> 1:15:50.040 Yeah, because you have to have if you're going to complain, 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:52.080 you have to have something to bring to the table. 1:15:52.720 --> 1:15:55.280 That's the name of that game. You have to have 1:15:55.320 --> 1:15:59.719 something they want before you can make demands. I figured 1:15:59.720 --> 1:16:00.840 that out out early on. 1:16:01.439 --> 1:16:05.120 You know, So you end up making a record for 1:16:05.400 --> 1:16:09.360 rough Trade. Yeah, Now, granted it was a different era 1:16:09.520 --> 1:16:13.840 back then. Today everything's been blown apart. But everybody who 1:16:13.960 --> 1:16:18.120 knew what Rough Trade was, which was basically an English company, 1:16:18.479 --> 1:16:22.479 would say, if you're playing roots to find music, this 1:16:22.600 --> 1:16:26.240 could be the worst label to ever make a deal with. 1:16:27.240 --> 1:16:31.479 Well you might think that, but they were so much 1:16:31.520 --> 1:16:36.439 more creative based and open minded than any of the 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:41.400 other labels who were approaching me. You know, most of 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:43.760 a lot of the labels were who passed on me 1:16:43.800 --> 1:16:47.519 were major labels, but even the really small other labels 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:52.080 passed on me, like Rounder Records and Rhino Records, which 1:16:52.160 --> 1:16:58.840 was signing people at the time, sugar Hill Records, you know, 1:16:58.920 --> 1:17:04.840 all those small folky, kind of rootsy labels. Except for 1:17:04.960 --> 1:17:09.280 Rough Trade. They were the only ones who basically approached 1:17:09.320 --> 1:17:12.400 me and said, we like your voice, we like your songs, 1:17:13.200 --> 1:17:16.679 let's make a record. They'd never seen me perform live before, 1:17:18.160 --> 1:17:21.920 unlike Rounder Records. You came to see me play at 1:17:21.920 --> 1:17:28.400 this dive bar in La and Hollywood on the fourth 1:17:28.439 --> 1:17:30.800 of July or something, and I had a bunch of 1:17:30.800 --> 1:17:34.160 the Longwriders guys sitting in with me. You know, it's 1:17:34.200 --> 1:17:40.639 a drunken, crazy night fourth of July, and they came 1:17:40.680 --> 1:17:46.800 to see me play, and you know, afterwards I talked 1:17:46.840 --> 1:17:49.559 to him and they said, well, we just don't thinking 1:17:49.680 --> 1:17:53.439 ready to go on the road yet, you know, because 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:58.720 my stage presence with the band wasn't polished enough. Basically 1:17:59.760 --> 1:18:03.519 it's rock and roll, man, Come on, god, what happened 1:18:03.560 --> 1:18:07.320 to that? Like you were saying, you know, would that 1:18:07.400 --> 1:18:10.000 have happened back in the day in the sixties? 1:18:10.080 --> 1:18:14.200 You know, when well the sixties, the executives woke up 1:18:14.240 --> 1:18:17.240 and said, we have no fucking idea, and they hired 1:18:17.280 --> 1:18:20.719 young people the so called my air Quotes label hippie 1:18:21.479 --> 1:18:25.160 and then then there became so much money in the seventies. 1:18:26.040 --> 1:18:28.360 And then by time this a little bit later, by 1:18:28.400 --> 1:18:31.680 time you hit the Tommy Mottola era at Sony, you know, 1:18:31.760 --> 1:18:34.880 the label head start wearing suits and they think they're 1:18:34.920 --> 1:18:35.599 the stars. 1:18:36.320 --> 1:18:36.639 Right. 1:18:36.720 --> 1:18:41.160 So, but the Rough Rough Trade album comes out. It 1:18:41.240 --> 1:18:45.040 is the most successful American act Rough Trade ever has 1:18:46.000 --> 1:18:51.120 And it's not like it explodes, but it becomes a 1:18:51.200 --> 1:18:54.880 real cult item, and as years go by, it gets 1:18:54.920 --> 1:18:57.840 gains even more and more respect. What was it like 1:18:57.960 --> 1:18:59.759 being the artist in that world? 1:19:00.479 --> 1:19:04.400 It was awesome. It was great. I mean, the reviews 1:19:04.439 --> 1:19:07.479 were coming in the critics loved it. I was getting 1:19:07.520 --> 1:19:12.759 all this publicity and exposure, you know, for the first time. 1:19:12.960 --> 1:19:17.160 And ANDTRA I mean they were just a great little label. 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:20.880 You know. They were independent though, and they didn't have 1:19:21.000 --> 1:19:29.519 the of course, the financial you know, they just didn't 1:19:29.560 --> 1:19:31.920 have the funds that are bigger label would have, so 1:19:32.680 --> 1:19:35.200 certain things they weren't able to do as well, like 1:19:36.640 --> 1:19:39.240 they didn't have as big of a staff, and they 1:19:39.280 --> 1:19:43.640 had trouble getting the albums shipped to record stores. You know, 1:19:44.120 --> 1:19:47.640 the record stores wouldn't order enough albums, you know, they 1:19:47.840 --> 1:19:52.919 just order a few, whereas if you're on Sony Records 1:19:53.000 --> 1:19:55.920 or something like that, you know, the record stores order 1:19:57.080 --> 1:19:59.960 an enormous amount because you know, you're on a big 1:20:00.200 --> 1:20:03.960 label and there's more guarantee they think that it's going 1:20:04.040 --> 1:20:07.040 to sell in the store. You know. So there was 1:20:07.200 --> 1:20:10.320 there were a few drawbacks like that, but just in 1:20:10.439 --> 1:20:13.080 terms of the heart and spirit of the label, Rough 1:20:13.080 --> 1:20:17.320 Trade was just you know, miles ahead of any of 1:20:17.360 --> 1:20:20.400 those other labels at the time. They sent me to 1:20:20.479 --> 1:20:26.320 Europe on tour. I mean, they really invested quite a 1:20:26.360 --> 1:20:26.840 bit in me. 1:20:29.080 --> 1:20:32.160 Were you making any money or you were famous and broke. 1:20:32.800 --> 1:20:36.439 No famous and broke, so. 1:20:36.479 --> 1:20:38.479 You sign up, sign, you make a deal with Bob 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:43.679 Booziak at RCA, he gets squeezed out, then he goes 1:20:43.720 --> 1:20:51.639 to Chameleon Pritzker's label. And how did you feel about 1:20:51.960 --> 1:20:53.320 that album coming out? 1:20:54.320 --> 1:20:58.040 Well, first of all, I loved Bobbyziak. He was one 1:20:58.080 --> 1:21:01.320 of the good guys, you know, even though he was 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:05.519 running a big major label RCAA, but he had the 1:21:05.640 --> 1:21:10.280 mentality more of an independent record guy, you know, So 1:21:10.600 --> 1:21:13.479 I felt really good about him, which is basically the 1:21:13.560 --> 1:21:16.600 only He's the only reason I ever went to RCA 1:21:16.720 --> 1:21:19.240 that had real mixed feelings about it, because I was 1:21:19.280 --> 1:21:23.360 on Rough Trade and RCA, you know, jumped in and 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:27.040 wanted to sign me. And you know, I didn't want 1:21:27.080 --> 1:21:32.080 to abandon Rough Trade because they had opened the door 1:21:32.120 --> 1:21:36.960 for me when nobody else would. So when that became 1:21:37.000 --> 1:21:40.000 a whole other story. When I went with RCAA. You 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:42.639 may have heard the story about the A and R guy. 1:21:42.680 --> 1:21:46.200 He was appointed to me and when we were we 1:21:46.200 --> 1:21:49.639 were rehearsing with my band at the time to get 1:21:49.680 --> 1:21:54.800 ready to go in the studio and start the I 1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:58.320 think it was the Sweet Old World album would have 1:21:58.360 --> 1:22:03.519 been the next one, yeah, Yeah, and the A and 1:22:03.680 --> 1:22:06.960 R guy. His name is sorry, I'm gonna say his name, 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:12.160 Bob booziakran the label. He was in the no I'm sorry, Yeah, 1:22:12.479 --> 1:22:16.400 Bennett Kaufman was my He was that he had been 1:22:16.439 --> 1:22:19.719 appointed the head of A and R for the entire 1:22:19.760 --> 1:22:23.720 West coast of the United States, you know. And we're 1:22:23.720 --> 1:22:27.600 in this in rehearsal studio going over the songs with 1:22:27.760 --> 1:22:31.000 the band and everything, and we started talking about producers 1:22:31.400 --> 1:22:36.040 and I mentioned Bob Johnson, at which point he asked, 1:22:36.080 --> 1:22:40.240 who's Bob Johnson? Well, right there, you know, we've got 1:22:40.280 --> 1:22:44.080 a problem. Who's Bob Johnson? And I said, well, you know, 1:22:44.360 --> 1:22:47.599 he produced Blonde on Blonde And he goes, and I 1:22:47.640 --> 1:22:52.479 swear that I'm serious as a heart attack. He says, oh, 1:22:52.520 --> 1:22:57.840 Blonde don Blonde? Is that a band? And I feel 1:22:57.960 --> 1:22:59.920 bad when I tell this story in a way because 1:22:59.920 --> 1:23:03.920 I feel like I just I'm you know, joking at 1:23:03.920 --> 1:23:04.840 his expense. 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:09.120 But it's very disheartening when they own you. 1:23:09.439 --> 1:23:13.360 It's very disheartening. And I feel stuck and trapped, and 1:23:13.400 --> 1:23:16.719 I'm thinking, Okay, I've got to work with this guy now, 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:21.880 you know. And it was just I was shocked. We 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:24.000 were all shocked. The guys in the band and I 1:23:24.200 --> 1:23:26.599 just all looked at each other and rolled our eyes, like, 1:23:26.960 --> 1:23:31.120 I mean, this guy's credibility went out the window. You know, 1:23:32.000 --> 1:23:35.400 I'm never going to be able to communicate with or 1:23:35.479 --> 1:23:41.280 connect with him. 1:23:38.760 --> 1:23:44.920 So ultimately, you make a deal with Rick Rubin. What's 1:23:44.920 --> 1:23:46.400 your take on Rick Rubin? 1:23:49.680 --> 1:23:52.439 I was a little intimidated by him at the beginning. 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:58.640 You know, he was a you know, rather large physical presence, 1:24:00.680 --> 1:24:05.080 really long wavy hair and a big, long beard. But 1:24:05.640 --> 1:24:09.439 he had his sweet nature, very good natured, and I 1:24:09.479 --> 1:24:12.560 could tell that he respected what I was doing musically. 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:17.479 And you know, who knows what would have happened had 1:24:18.479 --> 1:24:22.160 he actually become the producer of my next album. Look 1:24:22.200 --> 1:24:25.479 what he did for the Beastie Boys. He invited me 1:24:25.520 --> 1:24:28.880 over to his house into the Hollywood Hills, which was 1:24:29.920 --> 1:24:36.120 massively impressive along just that alone his home there, and 1:24:36.720 --> 1:24:39.799 we sat around in his living room with the stereo 1:24:40.040 --> 1:24:45.600 system and all these records piled up in CDs, and 1:24:46.680 --> 1:24:48.920 he said, I have an album I want to play you, 1:24:50.200 --> 1:24:54.599 and it was PJ. Harvey's. It might have been her 1:24:54.640 --> 1:24:56.920 first album, I'm not sure. It was the one that 1:24:56.960 --> 1:25:04.600 The Edge produced. And he's you know, he's this is 1:25:04.600 --> 1:25:07.200 what I have in mind for you kind of that's 1:25:07.280 --> 1:25:12.400 what he told me. I think he got me basically, 1:25:12.920 --> 1:25:18.040 but I think he also saw more possibilities than had 1:25:18.080 --> 1:25:20.840 been explored. Maybe. 1:25:21.240 --> 1:25:25.320 Okay, even when he does produce you, he's a pretty 1:25:25.360 --> 1:25:29.800 hands off guy. You go into the studio, you send 1:25:29.880 --> 1:25:32.320 him cassettes. What did he say? 1:25:35.280 --> 1:25:37.920 He said, you know, he liked the direction was going in, 1:25:38.040 --> 1:25:41.439 but he wanted to it needed at a certain point. 1:25:42.680 --> 1:25:46.280 What started to show up was when we were mixing, 1:25:48.600 --> 1:25:51.960 you know, that's when he wanted to add keyboards or 1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:55.960 at one point we recorded Drunken Angel, he wanted to 1:25:56.000 --> 1:25:58.200 take one of the verses out because it was too long. 1:25:59.760 --> 1:26:03.800 Well that was probably because he never explained, you know, 1:26:03.880 --> 1:26:07.040 why is it too long? It was probably too long 1:26:07.080 --> 1:26:11.160 for the radio for airplay, you know, because they had 1:26:11.160 --> 1:26:14.760 this rule about it can't be longer than whatever it is, 1:26:15.080 --> 1:26:18.360 you know, two and a half minutes or something. And 1:26:18.400 --> 1:26:20.720 he wanted me to remove one of the verses, and 1:26:20.760 --> 1:26:24.439 I said, no. See that's the kind of thing. That's 1:26:24.479 --> 1:26:27.639 where the rebel thing comes in. But it's not really 1:26:27.880 --> 1:26:30.840 it'sn't as much a rebel thing as it is an 1:26:30.960 --> 1:26:34.320 artistic decision. I'm not going to take a verse out 1:26:34.360 --> 1:26:36.800 of his song because it needs to be in there. 1:26:36.840 --> 1:26:40.240 It's part of the story, you know. I don't care 1:26:40.280 --> 1:26:43.840 if it fits on the radio. Fuck the radio, you know. 1:26:44.240 --> 1:26:48.599 I mean, so that was me. So he's saying take 1:26:48.640 --> 1:26:52.960 a verse out. I say no, and you know, he 1:26:53.040 --> 1:26:55.599 said okay. At least at least I can give him 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:59.080 that he didn't force me or anything. 1:27:06.640 --> 1:27:09.360 Has anybody ever told you what to do when they 1:27:09.400 --> 1:27:09.880 were right? 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:15.880 That's a good question too. You're just full of them today, 1:27:16.000 --> 1:27:29.280 Bob God, I wish I could remember. Yeah, I've guessed. 1:27:29.680 --> 1:27:33.160 Maybe the good example, as close as example as I 1:27:33.160 --> 1:27:37.000 can get to that would be like maybe I wanted 1:27:37.000 --> 1:27:40.559 to do a vocal over on a song and was told, 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:42.280 you know, you don't need to do this over again. 1:27:42.320 --> 1:27:48.439 It's fine, it's great, you're singing your ass off, and 1:27:48.560 --> 1:27:50.920 it was, you know, and then I would try to 1:27:50.960 --> 1:27:55.040 sing it over, you know, But then I realized, yeah, 1:27:55.080 --> 1:27:58.519 they're right, it's done. I don't need to try to 1:27:58.560 --> 1:28:02.360 improve it, you know. But the point WHI is and 1:28:02.720 --> 1:28:05.880 was though that I might maybe I just want to 1:28:05.920 --> 1:28:08.960 try to do it again just for my own satisfaction, 1:28:10.160 --> 1:28:13.559 and that would be the difference between people. When I 1:28:13.600 --> 1:28:16.479 was working at the studio, like when I worked with 1:28:16.600 --> 1:28:22.680 Charlie Sexton on the Essence album. We were working on 1:28:22.720 --> 1:28:25.840 my song Blue and I felt like I could have 1:28:25.920 --> 1:28:28.600 maybe got I could maybe get a better vocal. So 1:28:28.640 --> 1:28:30.840 I wanted to try to sing it again and he said, well, 1:28:30.840 --> 1:28:32.559 I don't think you need to, but if you want 1:28:32.600 --> 1:28:36.080 to go ahead. That was what I wanted someone to say, 1:28:36.360 --> 1:28:40.920 not no, you know, just whatever makes you feel comfortable. 1:28:42.120 --> 1:28:44.080 Well, I think that's one of the shifts. You know, 1:28:44.320 --> 1:28:47.479 after the sixties and the seventies, the record contracts where 1:28:48.040 --> 1:28:50.679 we deliver the album. You have to put it out. 1:28:50.720 --> 1:28:53.120 Whatever it is. Doesn't mean you have to promote it, 1:28:53.160 --> 1:28:55.719 but you have to put it out. Whereas today everybody 1:28:55.760 --> 1:28:58.599 at the label thinks they're an expert, when if you're 1:28:58.600 --> 1:29:03.439 a true artist, you know, it's a different mentality. So 1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:08.599 you ultimately put out car wheels on a gravel road, 1:29:09.439 --> 1:29:15.000 and that really cements your place in the firmament. Yeah, 1:29:15.040 --> 1:29:17.280 the record is done. Did you know that was going 1:29:17.360 --> 1:29:17.799 to happen? 1:29:19.120 --> 1:29:24.000 No? I did not know because it was so chaotic 1:29:24.080 --> 1:29:28.240 getting the record. None that you know. I was insecure. 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:30.439 I wasn't sure about this. I wasn't sure about that. 1:29:30.520 --> 1:29:34.280 I was questioning everything. I just hadn't had a whole 1:29:34.320 --> 1:29:37.760 lot of experience in the studio making records. This is 1:29:37.800 --> 1:29:42.360 what you have to remember, you know, So you know, 1:29:42.479 --> 1:29:45.120 I was still to me, it was just still this 1:29:45.280 --> 1:29:50.400 amazing process and scary process kind of because whatever goes 1:29:50.680 --> 1:29:55.559 down there is permanent, that's it, you know. And however, 1:29:55.600 --> 1:29:58.880 many thousands of people are going to hear this, and 1:29:59.400 --> 1:30:01.679 what if I make a mistake and I can't fix 1:30:01.720 --> 1:30:03.800 it or you know, all these kinds of thoughts are 1:30:03.880 --> 1:30:07.080 running through my head. That's probably my part of my 1:30:07.160 --> 1:30:10.479 OCD thing carried over into the studio. 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:14.200 Well, that's why I was asking earlier, you know, whether 1:30:14.240 --> 1:30:16.680 you could be satisfied or need to redo it all. 1:30:16.800 --> 1:30:17.840 That's where I was going. 1:30:18.200 --> 1:30:20.920 Well, I would have a hard time when it came 1:30:20.960 --> 1:30:23.320 to my vocal A lot of times, you know, I 1:30:23.320 --> 1:30:26.000 would think, oh that I had a flat note there. 1:30:26.360 --> 1:30:29.160 I've got to fix it. You know, the producer or 1:30:29.200 --> 1:30:32.759 engineer whoever would be saying, no, Lew, it's not flat. 1:30:32.840 --> 1:30:35.400 It's fine. You just think it's flat. I could I 1:30:35.479 --> 1:30:39.679 understand why you might think it's flat, but I remember 1:30:39.760 --> 1:30:43.519 my engineer, Dusty Weakeman, when we're working on car wals. 1:30:43.560 --> 1:30:46.960 At one point he said with Sunday. He says, you 1:30:46.960 --> 1:30:52.160 know the Native American Indians when they would weave a blanket, 1:30:52.720 --> 1:30:55.559 they would leave a mistake in the blanket on purpose, 1:30:56.479 --> 1:31:00.840 so it wouldn't be perfect, you know. And he used 1:31:00.840 --> 1:31:04.000 that as an analogy to try to get me to 1:31:04.080 --> 1:31:07.560 understand that the idea of imperfection. 1:31:09.360 --> 1:31:12.560 Well, there are two things there. I think the imperfections 1:31:12.600 --> 1:31:15.360 make the records human. And I could talk a number 1:31:15.400 --> 1:31:19.120 of records the imperfections of what make them great. However, 1:31:19.520 --> 1:31:23.800 that is classic OCD and is a distorted thought when 1:31:23.880 --> 1:31:28.000 something is okay but you can't settle down with it. 1:31:28.640 --> 1:31:31.799 Yeah. Yeah, I had that problem in the studio. 1:31:34.160 --> 1:31:37.760 So car Wheels comes out. What's your experience? 1:31:39.200 --> 1:31:42.800 Well, there were a couple of things on't it. I 1:31:42.800 --> 1:31:45.960 didn't like that. I just spread it over, would listen 1:31:46.000 --> 1:31:49.360 to and every time I'd just be oh, I hate that. 1:31:49.600 --> 1:31:52.200 Every time it would go by, and I didn't think 1:31:52.240 --> 1:31:54.400 it sounded good. And then over time, of course it 1:31:54.439 --> 1:32:00.600 didn't bother me. But I was completely in awe and 1:32:00.760 --> 1:32:07.000 shocked when I won that Grammy for Contemporary Best Contemporary 1:32:07.040 --> 1:32:11.840 Folk Album. I mean, I was completely I was not 1:32:12.000 --> 1:32:17.240 expecting that at all. That blew me out of the water. 1:32:17.880 --> 1:32:22.479 Okay. I was talking to my psychiatrist earlier today and 1:32:22.560 --> 1:32:26.479 he's older than I am, not a hip guy, and 1:32:26.520 --> 1:32:28.880 I say, yeah, well today I'm doing this podcast with 1:32:29.000 --> 1:32:31.439 Louse send to Williams goes, Oh, he knew who you were. 1:32:32.680 --> 1:32:36.680 So that showed that you permeate the culture. Did you? 1:32:37.439 --> 1:32:39.600 Did you? Did you start to feel that? 1:32:42.560 --> 1:32:46.559 Over time? I started realizing that, you know, something's happening here. 1:32:47.520 --> 1:32:52.959 You know, people are hearing this record. My name's getting around. 1:32:54.520 --> 1:32:57.719 You know, the critics loved it. I guess I would 1:32:57.800 --> 1:33:04.360 have been called the critics darling. Yeah, you know, so 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:05.919 I was lucky in that regard. 1:33:08.240 --> 1:33:13.200 Okay, you have the success, you win this Grammy. How 1:33:13.240 --> 1:33:15.600 hard is it to write songs and go to the 1:33:15.640 --> 1:33:17.880 studio next. 1:33:17.400 --> 1:33:23.360 Ooh it was hard Because now I'm thinking about it 1:33:23.400 --> 1:33:27.360 too much. My mind is running away with me, and 1:33:27.400 --> 1:33:32.200 I'm thinking, Okay, they loved Carwell's for these reasons. But 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:35.679 these particular songs that are all narrative, are the songs 1:33:35.680 --> 1:33:39.920 that were getting the most attention were narrative songs. Those 1:33:40.000 --> 1:33:42.840 kinds of songs take a lot of work, or these 1:33:42.880 --> 1:33:46.519 particular ones took a lot of work. Songs like Drunken Angel, 1:33:46.800 --> 1:33:53.439 late Charles Pintiola, you know, about specific people with really 1:33:53.479 --> 1:33:57.680 interesting stories behind them, and those are the kind of 1:33:57.760 --> 1:34:01.559 songs I can just whip up, you know. And a 1:34:01.600 --> 1:34:04.000 lot of the songs in Rough Trade were written during 1:34:04.080 --> 1:34:07.639 that down time that I had in silver Lake after 1:34:07.720 --> 1:34:11.400 I'd gotten a development deal with Sony Records, and I 1:34:11.479 --> 1:34:14.840 had time to sit in my apartment silver Lake and 1:34:14.880 --> 1:34:19.599 write songs every day, you know, because I had this 1:34:19.680 --> 1:34:23.439 development deal they've given me, which meant, you know, I 1:34:23.479 --> 1:34:27.080 got to check every month from them. You know, they 1:34:27.160 --> 1:34:30.519 give you the funds to live on for six months 1:34:30.880 --> 1:34:34.160 or whatever it is, and so you can buy groceries 1:34:34.200 --> 1:34:37.720 and pay your rent, and you know, to spend that 1:34:37.840 --> 1:34:41.280 time writing working on songs, and then you do a 1:34:41.320 --> 1:34:43.680 demo tape at the end of that period, which I 1:34:43.760 --> 1:34:49.040 did for them, and you know, then they decide if 1:34:49.040 --> 1:34:52.320 they're going to give you an actual recording deal or 1:34:52.360 --> 1:34:56.280 not based on the demo tape that you do when 1:34:56.320 --> 1:35:00.240 you have that after you get the development deal. I 1:35:00.320 --> 1:35:03.920 had done that for Sony Records. This guy Ron Oberman 1:35:05.080 --> 1:35:07.559 was the A and R guy who pulled me in there, 1:35:09.400 --> 1:35:11.599 and he was real nice. He was a cool guy. 1:35:12.760 --> 1:35:15.680 But then they passed on me basically after I did 1:35:15.680 --> 1:35:20.519 the demo tape. This is when that country in Rock 1:35:20.920 --> 1:35:23.720 division thing started, because I did that demo tape for 1:35:23.840 --> 1:35:28.439 Sony in LA, and Sony in LA said it was 1:35:28.479 --> 1:35:31.439 too country for rock, so they sent it to Sony 1:35:31.479 --> 1:35:34.200 in Nashville, who said it was too rock for country. 1:35:36.880 --> 1:35:38.880 In any event, you didn't get a deal. So how 1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:39.559 did you feel? 1:35:41.400 --> 1:35:45.280 Really disappointed? Because when I first got the development deal, 1:35:45.360 --> 1:35:47.439 I thought, well, this is a done deal. You know, 1:35:47.439 --> 1:35:49.599 they're gonna sign me. I'm going to make a record 1:35:49.600 --> 1:35:51.840 for Sony Records. I'm not going to have to I'm 1:35:51.840 --> 1:35:53.920 going to be able to quit my day jobs, and 1:35:54.680 --> 1:35:56.920 this is gonna be great. And I was on Cloud 1:35:57.040 --> 1:36:01.320 nine and you know, I did the demo tape. Fantastic 1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:05.320 musicians on that demo tape. Some of the guys from 1:36:05.439 --> 1:36:12.880 NRBQ played on it. David Mansfield, the keyboard player from NRBQ, 1:36:14.320 --> 1:36:16.880 was on it, and some other really good people, and 1:36:18.560 --> 1:36:22.280 you know, I just thought there was this whirlwind of 1:36:22.320 --> 1:36:26.439 activity and it felt real positive, and you know then 1:36:26.479 --> 1:36:31.240 when they decided no, because you know, it's that classic 1:36:31.320 --> 1:36:36.519 thing where Ron Oberman was. He wanted to do it, 1:36:36.560 --> 1:36:38.719 but then he had to convince the rest of the label. 1:36:39.920 --> 1:36:42.360 You know, that's where the business, that's where the numbers 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:46.320 guys come in. You know, well, what is this. We're 1:36:46.360 --> 1:36:48.840 not sure how to market it? You know, then you 1:36:48.960 --> 1:36:53.000 become a product like that. They're trying to market and 1:36:53.040 --> 1:36:55.599 they have these meetings and the men in suits come 1:36:55.720 --> 1:37:00.840 and they start talking numbers. And that's when I decided no. 1:37:03.720 --> 1:37:06.840 Okay, let's jump forward. We got into this story because 1:37:06.880 --> 1:37:11.160 you're saying songs like Lake Charles, you can't write in 1:37:11.200 --> 1:37:13.320 a day, but you have to make another album. 1:37:14.760 --> 1:37:20.160 Yeah, and I managed to come up with the songs. 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:23.240 But even Sweet O'd World. I remember we went in 1:37:23.280 --> 1:37:25.960 and we cut a bunch of stuff, and I'm you know, 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:30.240 I was comparing everything to car Wheels already, and I 1:37:30.320 --> 1:37:34.599 was terrified. You know, I said, I felt stuck because 1:37:34.640 --> 1:37:37.639 I felt like, whatever album I make after car Wheels, 1:37:37.680 --> 1:37:40.920 people are gonna compare it to car wheels. It's they're 1:37:40.960 --> 1:37:43.479 either gonna say it sounds the same as car wheels, 1:37:43.760 --> 1:37:46.440 or they're gonna say it's not as good as Car Wheels. 1:37:46.720 --> 1:37:51.280 So I felt like I couldn't win for losing, and 1:37:51.400 --> 1:37:54.160 we cut some stuff for Sweet O'. 1:37:54.000 --> 1:37:56.280 World and I think we're at Essence now. 1:37:57.040 --> 1:38:01.920 Okay, wait, I'm sorry now the it wasn't Sweet Old 1:38:01.920 --> 1:38:03.360 World right after Carl Willers. 1:38:04.600 --> 1:38:08.360 Sweet Ol'd World was before Car Wheels. Then came Essence. 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:11.520 Sweet Old World was after the Rough Trade record. 1:38:11.880 --> 1:38:16.520 Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking that and that was hard. 1:38:16.320 --> 1:38:19.240 To Okay, so you had a hard time following up 1:38:19.640 --> 1:38:22.840 the Rough Trade record? Yeah, tell me about the hard 1:38:22.920 --> 1:38:25.080 time following up Car Wheels. 1:38:26.360 --> 1:38:30.519 Well, it was, you know, similar issue where because Car 1:38:30.600 --> 1:38:34.439 Wills was so successful, I felt like it was going 1:38:34.479 --> 1:38:37.880 to everything was going to be compared to it, so 1:38:38.000 --> 1:38:41.599 the songs had to be as good or better on 1:38:41.640 --> 1:38:42.519 the next record. 1:38:45.040 --> 1:38:48.080 You was talking your book about changing your writing style. 1:38:49.760 --> 1:38:54.839 Well, I started. I was working on songs for Essence, 1:38:54.880 --> 1:38:58.799 and I was coming up with these songs that weren't 1:38:58.840 --> 1:39:04.080 really lashed out lyrically that much, but the music was 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:07.320 really cool, and I thought, you know, is this going 1:39:07.360 --> 1:39:09.439 to be okay to do? Can I get away with this? 1:39:09.600 --> 1:39:14.559 Because before that my songs were you know, like I said, 1:39:15.160 --> 1:39:21.559 a lot of narrative lyrics and you know, it's paying 1:39:21.600 --> 1:39:25.160 a lot of attention to the lyrics. And I was 1:39:25.200 --> 1:39:29.519 still doing that. But what really helped me was at 1:39:29.560 --> 1:39:32.280 the time Bob Dylan's album Time out of Mind had 1:39:32.280 --> 1:39:36.679 come out, that Rick Rubin had done, and I listened 1:39:36.720 --> 1:39:39.080 to it and loved it, and I felt like, this 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:42.479 is so musical. It's such a musical album, you know, 1:39:42.520 --> 1:39:47.759 it's different than most of his other records. And in fact, 1:39:47.840 --> 1:39:51.439 the Nashville Paper gave it a bad review because they 1:39:51.479 --> 1:39:56.760 said the lyrics weren't up to Bob Dylan quality, you know. 1:39:57.520 --> 1:40:00.160 But the way I felt about it was that he 1:40:00.240 --> 1:40:05.639 was stretching out a little bit and letting the music talk. 1:40:08.840 --> 1:40:12.400 You know, I'd always want. I loved the stuff that 1:40:12.439 --> 1:40:15.800 I loved that I was listening to was talking heads. 1:40:16.560 --> 1:40:22.840 I loved them because great lyrics, but the music, you know, 1:40:24.160 --> 1:40:28.520 which supported the lyrics. And I mean, I love good 1:40:29.000 --> 1:40:35.120 I love rock music, you know, I love beats, I 1:40:35.160 --> 1:40:39.200 love hip hop. One of my favorite artists is this 1:40:39.240 --> 1:40:46.240 guy Atmosphere out of Minneapolis, who I just absolutely love. 1:40:47.200 --> 1:40:50.840 He's a great writer, he's a great lyricist, and his 1:40:51.040 --> 1:40:56.639 music is just infectious, you know. It's a similar thing 1:40:56.800 --> 1:40:59.200 to what Bob Dylan was doing when he first won 1:40:59.280 --> 1:41:04.360 an electric you know, I love that kind of stuff. 1:41:04.800 --> 1:41:07.920 I've always been drawn to it. I love Thievery Corporation 1:41:09.200 --> 1:41:13.799 because they do that, you know, Marching the Hate Machines 1:41:13.840 --> 1:41:17.240 into the Sun, the song they co wrote with Wayne 1:41:17.320 --> 1:41:23.080 Korn from Flaming Lips. So I love that combination of 1:41:24.240 --> 1:41:30.240 the you know, really interesting, well written lyrics, but infectious 1:41:30.920 --> 1:41:34.280 you know, hip hoppy rock music behind it. 1:41:35.560 --> 1:41:39.200 Okay for someone who got a lite start, had all 1:41:39.240 --> 1:41:43.640 sorts of issues going from label to label. In the 1:41:43.680 --> 1:41:46.960 last twenty years, you put on more records than anybody 1:41:47.000 --> 1:41:51.559 of your stature, so you just hit a groove. What 1:41:51.640 --> 1:41:52.400 accounts for that? 1:41:55.439 --> 1:41:58.920 Well, you know, I signed ended up signing with Lost Highway, 1:42:00.560 --> 1:42:03.599 and you know, so when you signed with a label, 1:42:03.640 --> 1:42:06.640 you have a contract. You have to give them so 1:42:06.760 --> 1:42:11.439 many a certain amount of recordings, you know, that year 1:42:12.040 --> 1:42:14.680 or whatever it is. So that was part of it, 1:42:14.840 --> 1:42:19.240 just the and when I was on Lost Highway, I 1:42:19.240 --> 1:42:24.240 felt like I'd finally found my family to a large extent, 1:42:24.400 --> 1:42:28.840 you know, just absolutely adored Rick or not Rick Luke 1:42:28.920 --> 1:42:35.599 Lewis just loved working with him, you know, he put 1:42:35.640 --> 1:42:39.559 his money where his mouth was and walk the walk 1:42:39.600 --> 1:42:42.880 and talk the talk, and you know, he was a 1:42:43.000 --> 1:42:43.879 musical Ever. 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:50.759 Well, he ultimately, you know, gets pushed aside. The label 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:56.120 closes and you continue to make records independently distributed by 1:42:56.120 --> 1:43:00.240 thirty tigers, so you know it's yeah, you might have ant, 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.320 but now you have no contract, you're still making the records. 1:43:04.400 --> 1:43:08.160 Well, a lot of that I have to owe to 1:43:08.240 --> 1:43:14.200 my husband, manager Tom, who is always coming up with ideas. 1:43:15.640 --> 1:43:18.960 He worked at record labels for a number of years. 1:43:19.080 --> 1:43:22.240 He used to work for Best Buy, and so he 1:43:22.320 --> 1:43:26.479 has that. He's that capability of he's got the business 1:43:26.479 --> 1:43:31.439 sense and the creative sense combined. So he's the one. 1:43:31.479 --> 1:43:34.160 Like one of the things I did were those jukebox 1:43:35.000 --> 1:43:39.559 you know, the jukebox recordings, an idea that Tom came 1:43:39.680 --> 1:43:45.360 up with. Basically, we're, you know, just in between record albums, 1:43:45.400 --> 1:43:48.839 and I was talking about sons I loved by other people, 1:43:49.600 --> 1:43:51.080 and he said, well, why don't we go in and 1:43:51.160 --> 1:43:56.559 record some of those? So we would. He would say, 1:43:57.200 --> 1:44:01.600 you know, pick your favorite Bob del songs, whoever it 1:44:01.680 --> 1:44:04.920 might be, Tom Petty, and we go in. We went 1:44:04.960 --> 1:44:08.759 in and worked him up with the band and recorded 1:44:08.840 --> 1:44:10.559 on them and we ended up getting a couple of 1:44:10.920 --> 1:44:15.439 filmmaker guys photographers to come in and document it in 1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:20.800 the studio and you know, people saw it and heard 1:44:20.840 --> 1:44:23.599 it and loved it. And then Tom got the idea 1:44:23.680 --> 1:44:26.960 to you know, put it on make it available online. 1:44:27.080 --> 1:44:30.680 They could downstream it or whatever it's called, you know, 1:44:31.880 --> 1:44:35.320 and we jumped on that wagon, you know, that bandwagon, 1:44:35.400 --> 1:44:39.920 the social media thing with it, and you know, it 1:44:39.960 --> 1:44:45.559 took off and you know, so that was an idea 1:44:45.600 --> 1:44:48.479 that Tom had come up with to fill the gap 1:44:50.280 --> 1:44:52.280 in between records. 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:54.640 Well does he ever come up with an idea and 1:44:54.680 --> 1:44:56.519 you say, no, not going to do that? 1:44:58.080 --> 1:45:02.040 Sometimes yeah, you know, then we talk about it and. 1:45:03.200 --> 1:45:06.719 So when in this equation do you start making any money? 1:45:08.320 --> 1:45:14.400 Huh that's a good question too. Uh. I remember telling 1:45:14.520 --> 1:45:17.080 Tom at one point recently, like when am I going 1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:20.280 to start seeing the results of the fruits of my labor? 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:23.599 You know, like you hear about you know, all these 1:45:23.720 --> 1:45:26.040 rock bands who get famous and they have all these 1:45:26.080 --> 1:45:32.599 cars and multiple houses and all this stuff, and you know, 1:45:32.760 --> 1:45:36.040 it's not like that because you know, you have to 1:45:36.040 --> 1:45:42.480 pay taxes first of all, which is true for every American. 1:45:42.920 --> 1:45:45.200 But the more money you make, the more taxes you 1:45:45.240 --> 1:45:50.800 have to pay. So I mean you still have to 1:45:50.920 --> 1:45:54.920 watch your spending and all of that. It's just on 1:45:55.000 --> 1:45:56.880 a different level. I guess. 1:45:58.880 --> 1:46:02.520 Well, do you ever go I'm wear and say too expensive, 1:46:02.600 --> 1:46:03.240 not going to pay? 1:46:04.840 --> 1:46:10.479 Tom will say that sometimes, but usually once if we 1:46:10.560 --> 1:46:12.880 go to the trouble you mean, like a nice restaurant 1:46:12.960 --> 1:46:13.400 or something. 1:46:13.560 --> 1:46:14.759 So that could be a good example. 1:46:14.840 --> 1:46:18.360 Yoh, yeah, we won't go. If he thinks it's going 1:46:18.400 --> 1:46:20.519 to be too expensive, then we just go somewhere else, 1:46:22.000 --> 1:46:24.960 you know. And I would give him a hard time anyway, 1:46:25.040 --> 1:46:27.479 if he would know better than to say that. 1:46:28.880 --> 1:46:32.840 And do you have any personal extravagance something you do 1:46:32.960 --> 1:46:34.760 or something you own or somewhere you go? 1:46:36.880 --> 1:46:44.120 Hmmm, probably like what you were talking about before. I 1:46:44.240 --> 1:46:48.880 like to shop on line. I love buying. I probably 1:46:48.880 --> 1:46:54.280 shouldn't go into office supply stores. I love buying. I 1:46:54.360 --> 1:47:00.000 go crazy when I see blank, fresh new notebooks and 1:47:00.080 --> 1:47:03.200 pads of paper and pens. I just want to buy 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:06.040 them all, you know. 1:47:07.360 --> 1:47:10.800 So let's go sideways for a minute here. You are 1:47:10.840 --> 1:47:15.519 a woman in a male dominated business. What's that been like? 1:47:17.040 --> 1:47:22.519 It sucks? Basically, I mean you know, sometimes I have 1:47:22.560 --> 1:47:26.519 to remind myself how many that there aren't women? You know, 1:47:26.560 --> 1:47:29.880 we don't. The majority of engineers are men, majority of 1:47:29.920 --> 1:47:34.160 producers are men. Men run all the record labels. I mean, 1:47:34.200 --> 1:47:36.000 I don't know. I have a label run by a woman. 1:47:38.040 --> 1:47:42.040 So you know, there's that majority of musicians are men. 1:47:43.920 --> 1:47:48.200 You know, I love seeing a woman playing drums. I 1:47:48.240 --> 1:47:52.200 love seeing a woman playing an instrument generally reserved for men. 1:47:53.200 --> 1:47:57.240 There's something really sexy and cool about that, you know, 1:47:58.080 --> 1:47:59.960 a woman playing bass or drums. 1:48:02.000 --> 1:48:05.360 And how any me too moments? 1:48:06.280 --> 1:48:06.960 Huh? 1:48:07.000 --> 1:48:08.920 Any sexual harassments. 1:48:09.920 --> 1:48:13.600 I haven't had anything like that, thank god, Just you know, 1:48:13.760 --> 1:48:20.000 comments like when I was first starting out, guys would 1:48:20.040 --> 1:48:24.240 say stuff like, you're pretty good for a girl, you know, 1:48:25.120 --> 1:48:27.800 or worse yet, they would say, you're pretty good for chick. 1:48:28.920 --> 1:48:31.680 I hated that word back then because that was effeminist. 1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:34.120 I like to think of myself as a feminist, so 1:48:34.560 --> 1:48:37.840 you know, that was not cool back in the day 1:48:38.120 --> 1:48:39.760 to call women chicks. 1:48:39.479 --> 1:48:42.719 Although I will say I have two sisters. Starting somewhere 1:48:42.760 --> 1:48:45.600 in the eighties or nineties, they started to use the 1:48:45.640 --> 1:48:50.160 word chick. Yeah, it's almost like black people using the 1:48:50.280 --> 1:48:50.719 N word. 1:48:51.200 --> 1:48:51.639 Yeah. 1:48:52.080 --> 1:48:54.599 And you know, it's a funny thing because I come 1:48:54.600 --> 1:48:57.320 from a female dominated family. You can get caught up 1:48:57.360 --> 1:49:00.479 in a conversation and saying jokingly, and there are certain 1:49:00.479 --> 1:49:02.120 people saying, say, oh, you can't say that. 1:49:02.920 --> 1:49:07.160 Yeah, I know. Yeah, we can call each other chick 1:49:07.280 --> 1:49:10.760 and bitch and whatever else we want to call each other. 1:49:10.960 --> 1:49:13.000 You know, I know what you mean. 1:49:13.479 --> 1:49:18.360 Yeah, So how about in business, Like you go for 1:49:18.400 --> 1:49:21.720 a meeting and they you feel if you were a 1:49:21.880 --> 1:49:24.960 guy in a meeting or in a studio, it would 1:49:25.040 --> 1:49:25.919 go down differently. 1:49:27.760 --> 1:49:30.439 Well, you know, I just my head just doesn't go 1:49:30.560 --> 1:49:33.040 in that direction. I don't think in those terms of 1:49:33.240 --> 1:49:37.360 like you know, all men do this or all women 1:49:37.360 --> 1:49:41.200 are like this. So, you know, I just think I 1:49:41.200 --> 1:49:44.800 would think more in terms of the actual person, Like 1:49:44.880 --> 1:49:48.439 if so and so was in here right now, like 1:49:48.800 --> 1:49:52.240 Steve Earle, who is just like you know, when he 1:49:52.360 --> 1:49:54.840 says something, that's it. You know, he's just got one 1:49:54.880 --> 1:49:58.000 of those personalities, you know, And I'm just not like that. 1:49:58.160 --> 1:50:01.240 I'm more kind of you know, shy, or I kind 1:50:01.280 --> 1:50:04.360 of retreat back, you know, like it's harder for me 1:50:04.439 --> 1:50:10.120 to be aggressive or assertive as opposed to like so 1:50:10.200 --> 1:50:13.240 if I was in the studio. I might say I 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:16.080 wish Steve was in here with me right now because 1:50:16.240 --> 1:50:19.160 he could explain what I mean to them, and part 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:21.759 of it would be just trying to describe and explain 1:50:21.880 --> 1:50:24.200 what I wanted to the sound I wanted to get 1:50:24.280 --> 1:50:26.920 or something like that, you know, to the engineer and 1:50:26.960 --> 1:50:30.680 the producer like that would be hard sometimes. 1:50:30.720 --> 1:50:34.240 So tell us about the stroke. 1:50:36.360 --> 1:50:39.800 Yeah, that was a surprise and a shock if there 1:50:39.840 --> 1:50:43.840 ever was one. I was. It was a normal, regular day. 1:50:43.880 --> 1:50:45.680 I was in the bathroom getting ready to take a 1:50:45.760 --> 1:50:49.679 shower at our house in Nashville, and I just felt 1:50:49.720 --> 1:50:52.760 really exhausted all of a sudden, like to the point 1:50:52.800 --> 1:50:54.400 where all I want to do is lay down. I 1:50:54.400 --> 1:50:56.800 didn't care where I was. I just wanted to and 1:50:57.200 --> 1:51:01.240 it was this overwhelming need to lay down, and I 1:51:01.360 --> 1:51:04.000 just felt kind of weak. My legs just felt real 1:51:04.040 --> 1:51:08.360 weak underneath me, and I remember I didn't fall down. 1:51:08.840 --> 1:51:13.000 I saw some towels and I grabbed them and laid 1:51:13.000 --> 1:51:15.240 down on the floor in the bathroom for a minute. 1:51:15.240 --> 1:51:16.840 I just thought, I'm just gonna lay down for a 1:51:16.880 --> 1:51:18.599 minute before I get in the shower, because I don't 1:51:18.600 --> 1:51:21.800 want to fall down to the shower, so I just 1:51:21.880 --> 1:51:25.720 laid down on the floor and then Tom, my husband, Tom, 1:51:26.280 --> 1:51:30.400 at some point saw me in there and he figured 1:51:30.520 --> 1:51:32.640 something was He didn't know if I'd fallen or what 1:51:32.720 --> 1:51:37.800 had happened, but he knew something was off. So he 1:51:37.960 --> 1:51:40.680 ended up on the phone with our doctor, our primary 1:51:40.720 --> 1:51:45.760 care physician in Nashville, described what was going under her. 1:51:46.000 --> 1:51:49.679 She told her to call an ambulance and they came, 1:51:49.840 --> 1:51:52.840 and you know, we didn't know it was a stroke 1:51:52.920 --> 1:51:55.479 right away until I got to the hospital, and then 1:51:55.520 --> 1:52:00.160 they said that that was what had happened. I was 1:52:00.160 --> 1:52:05.200 in the hospital for a couple of weeks, and then 1:52:05.240 --> 1:52:08.880 they at a certain point I started doing rehab in 1:52:08.920 --> 1:52:12.639 the hospital because they had a rehab division section there 1:52:13.240 --> 1:52:17.240 with physical therapists, so they got me into that very quickly, 1:52:17.400 --> 1:52:21.479 which I think really helped made a big difference. So 1:52:21.520 --> 1:52:24.240 I did some rehab in the hospital, and then I 1:52:24.280 --> 1:52:28.960 came home and then I had caregivers come to the 1:52:29.040 --> 1:52:32.200 house and helped me, and I had physical theorists come 1:52:32.240 --> 1:52:37.000 to the house and worked with them. So I was 1:52:37.040 --> 1:52:41.760 doing a lot of outpatient physical therapy and starting to 1:52:41.760 --> 1:52:44.160 get a little at least be able to walk across 1:52:44.200 --> 1:52:47.200 the room without falling down because I couldn't walk it first, 1:52:49.439 --> 1:52:53.280 and then I rollized I couldn't play guitar, which has 1:52:53.320 --> 1:52:58.519 been my main big obstacle. So that's what I'm working 1:52:58.560 --> 1:53:00.320 on now, is trying to get back to that. 1:53:01.880 --> 1:53:05.640 So you had some level of paralysis. Where are you 1:53:05.720 --> 1:53:07.320 at now physically? 1:53:11.240 --> 1:53:13.640 Well, I don't know if it was paralysis, you mean 1:53:13.720 --> 1:53:14.839 not being able to walk. 1:53:15.520 --> 1:53:17.320 Well, whatever it is, you know better than I do. 1:53:17.840 --> 1:53:19.040 Uh. 1:53:19.320 --> 1:53:22.080 You know what ended up? You have the stroke. Let's 1:53:22.080 --> 1:53:25.800 start from the beginning, purely out of the blue or 1:53:25.960 --> 1:53:28.160 was this something genetic and they say it was going 1:53:28.240 --> 1:53:28.759 to happen? 1:53:29.680 --> 1:53:32.559 No, it was out of the blue, you know. 1:53:33.680 --> 1:53:35.880 Okay, So what were the effects of the stroke? 1:53:37.080 --> 1:53:39.720 Okay? The stroke? Basically, you know, I didn't even know 1:53:39.760 --> 1:53:45.360 what a stroke was. But it's when you have a 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:52.080 blood thought on one side of your brain, and you know, 1:53:52.240 --> 1:53:56.599 basically your brain is confused. So that means your body 1:53:56.680 --> 1:53:59.320 is confused because your brain tells your body what to do. 1:54:01.000 --> 1:54:05.559 So you have to retrain your brain. Basically, you know, 1:54:05.720 --> 1:54:08.920 your brain tells your legs what to do when you walk. 1:54:10.240 --> 1:54:13.120 You know, you don't think about that consciously because you're 1:54:13.240 --> 1:54:16.120 so used to walking, you just you don't think about it. 1:54:16.160 --> 1:54:19.280 But you know, when you after you have a stroke, 1:54:19.439 --> 1:54:20.960 all of a sudden, you have to think about what 1:54:21.000 --> 1:54:24.680 you're doing all the time. And it also what's interesting 1:54:24.800 --> 1:54:27.920 is like my blood clot was on the right side 1:54:27.960 --> 1:54:30.400 of my brain, so the whole, entire less side of 1:54:30.400 --> 1:54:36.200 my body was affected. And you know, you just have 1:54:36.320 --> 1:54:41.360 to relearn everything. I had to learn how to walk again, 1:54:42.320 --> 1:54:45.360 which I'm still working on. I still don't walk like 1:54:45.400 --> 1:54:47.760 I used to, you know. 1:54:49.360 --> 1:54:58.040 So if we take a snapshot today, what's your state today. 1:54:58.600 --> 1:55:01.320 I think I'm doing really well. People who've known me 1:55:01.440 --> 1:55:07.080 since the beginning can see the progress. I mean, I'm 1:55:07.120 --> 1:55:12.080 lifting weights in the studio with the trainers, so you know, 1:55:12.760 --> 1:55:15.560 because I just refuse to. I don't want to get 1:55:15.760 --> 1:55:19.640 out of shape and weak and all that. I was 1:55:19.680 --> 1:55:23.960 in a wheelchair for part of that time, and we 1:55:24.080 --> 1:55:25.760 still do that. Like if we have to go to 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:28.960 the airport to catch a flight, they'll have a wheelchair 1:55:29.000 --> 1:55:32.440 there to roll me through the airport because it's it's 1:55:32.480 --> 1:55:34.880 too hard for me to walk through and it takes 1:55:34.920 --> 1:55:35.480 too long. 1:55:37.360 --> 1:55:39.680 And what's the status of playing guitar. 1:55:42.000 --> 1:55:48.040 Right now? I'm not playing, so I've been performing without guitar, 1:55:48.400 --> 1:55:52.200 was just my band backing me up. But the hardest 1:55:52.240 --> 1:55:54.360 part is when I go in the studio to record, 1:55:54.520 --> 1:55:59.400 because that's how I started. At a certain point, I 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:02.240 realize the best way for me to record with the 1:56:02.280 --> 1:56:06.160 band was for them to follow me, you know, for 1:56:06.200 --> 1:56:10.800 me to play the guitar, and they get the vibe 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:15.320 and the tempo and everything for me. And since I 1:56:15.320 --> 1:56:18.920 can't play, I have to rely on someone else to 1:56:18.920 --> 1:56:23.400 play rhythm, and that makes it a lot more difficult 1:56:23.440 --> 1:56:27.880 to record songs because nobody's gonna play like I do, 1:56:29.160 --> 1:56:35.320 you know. So that's the best way for me to 1:56:35.360 --> 1:56:38.959 record is for me to play. In the very beginning, 1:56:39.080 --> 1:56:41.360 somebody else would grab the guitar and sit and play. 1:56:41.400 --> 1:56:45.400 I never would even play. And then at some point 1:56:45.840 --> 1:56:48.960 someone in the studio, it might have been Steve Girls 1:56:49.040 --> 1:56:52.920 suggested and said, Lou, you need to play guitar and 1:56:53.000 --> 1:56:56.120 sing the song and then let everybody else follow you. 1:56:57.240 --> 1:56:59.200 And that proved to be the best way for me 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:00.800 to record my stuff. 1:57:02.680 --> 1:57:05.880 And do you anticipate being able to play the guitar again? 1:57:07.160 --> 1:57:10.560 Yeah? I mean I have to say yes, because I 1:57:10.640 --> 1:57:12.000 just refuse to give up. 1:57:13.440 --> 1:57:18.480 Okay, we're the same age, and hitting sixty was rough. 1:57:18.760 --> 1:57:23.080 Hitting seventy was rough in a different way. You've accomplished 1:57:23.160 --> 1:57:25.800 all this. You have all these albums, you have all 1:57:25.880 --> 1:57:30.240 this acclaim. Even if you did nothing again, you have 1:57:30.320 --> 1:57:34.280 a good legacy. But what do you want to accomplish 1:57:34.400 --> 1:57:37.760 other than the physical things which we've just changed. What 1:57:37.840 --> 1:57:40.320 do you want and what do you need for the 1:57:40.400 --> 1:57:45.600 time that's left. 1:57:48.480 --> 1:57:51.200 I would just say just keep writing songs and keep 1:57:51.240 --> 1:57:54.320 getting better. I feel like I can still there's always 1:57:54.440 --> 1:57:57.160 room to improve, you. 1:57:57.120 --> 1:58:03.520 Know, Okay, when I turn sixty. It's like you know 1:58:03.640 --> 1:58:06.840 the trick. You see advertising and you go if I 1:58:06.920 --> 1:58:08.720 you know, if this is good, I'll hear about it. 1:58:09.080 --> 1:58:12.280 Whereas you're a kid, you see something advertised with cartoons, 1:58:12.320 --> 1:58:16.440 you go, I want that. Then seventy he realized, well 1:58:16.440 --> 1:58:21.600 I'm not going to be here forever, and your perspective changes. 1:58:22.000 --> 1:58:25.400 In addition, we live in this era. You know, you 1:58:25.480 --> 1:58:27.360 and me grew up in the area. It turned on 1:58:27.400 --> 1:58:32.560 the radio, everybody knew those songs. Now there's almost no 1:58:32.760 --> 1:58:38.120 regular frame of reference. So do you just put your 1:58:38.160 --> 1:58:41.400 head down and say this is what I'm doing, or 1:58:41.760 --> 1:58:44.480 does it affect you how things have changed both because 1:58:44.520 --> 1:58:46.080 of age and the landscape. 1:58:46.840 --> 1:58:50.720 Yeah, it affects me just like it affects you and 1:58:50.760 --> 1:58:55.520 everybody else, especially people our age, you know, and it 1:58:55.600 --> 1:58:59.040 buns me out a lot of times. You're talking about 1:58:59.080 --> 1:59:01.800 like what you you mean, what you were talking about 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.920 before about there aren't any rebels left and that sort 1:59:04.960 --> 1:59:10.720 of thing. Oh yeah, Yeah, it definitely affects me. But 1:59:11.440 --> 1:59:16.120 I see some though still, you know, there are you know, 1:59:16.200 --> 1:59:19.280 I keep on top of what's going on, and I listen. 1:59:19.400 --> 1:59:23.520 I love to listen to new artists. You know. I'll 1:59:23.560 --> 1:59:26.160 hear about somebody. Somebody will say, you need to hear 1:59:26.280 --> 1:59:29.320 this guy's really good. And I go out of my 1:59:29.360 --> 1:59:32.320 way to listen to people, you know, who are just 1:59:32.320 --> 1:59:37.640 getting started. And you know, I get excited when I 1:59:37.680 --> 1:59:40.600 hear somebody I think it's really good, and you know, 1:59:40.920 --> 1:59:44.320 I'll go out and support them and talk with them 1:59:44.360 --> 1:59:49.400 and everything, and listen to their music at home, and 1:59:49.520 --> 1:59:52.320 you know, give them advice maybe sometimes if they ask 1:59:52.440 --> 1:59:57.600 for it, you know, just give them support, you know, 1:59:57.680 --> 2:00:00.560 because I remember what it's like when I first started, 2:00:01.760 --> 2:00:06.040 you know. So there was a girl who in Nashville, 2:00:06.080 --> 2:00:12.080 who's her name is Alicia Blue, which is a great 2:00:12.120 --> 2:00:16.000 stage name, but it's actually her real name. And she's 2:00:16.120 --> 2:00:21.160 quite good. She's a really good lyricist, really good songs 2:00:21.600 --> 2:00:24.640 she did, She recorded and did a video of her 2:00:25.720 --> 2:00:33.200 singing this song. Jane says that Jane's Addiction did and 2:00:33.240 --> 2:00:38.120 it's really it's really good. She just played it for 2:00:38.160 --> 2:00:43.840 me recently. And so you know, there are I mean, 2:00:43.880 --> 2:00:47.720 there are younger artists. I think, who are I haven't 2:00:47.880 --> 2:00:52.360 enough of that rebellion in them, you know, but the 2:00:52.440 --> 2:00:55.880 business has changed somewhat too, so you have to look 2:00:55.920 --> 2:01:01.880 at that, and I get more frustrated, I guess when 2:01:01.880 --> 2:01:05.080 I probably more about the business into things than the 2:01:05.200 --> 2:01:08.960 artists actually, or the lack thereof, because a lot of 2:01:09.000 --> 2:01:11.360 times I'll see and hear an artists I think is 2:01:11.480 --> 2:01:15.840 really really good and wonder why he or she doesn't 2:01:15.880 --> 2:01:19.080 get the attention they deserve, or you know, why he 2:01:19.200 --> 2:01:22.520 or she hasn't gotten record deal yet, and you know, 2:01:24.240 --> 2:01:26.800 people aren't paying attention to them like they should be, 2:01:26.960 --> 2:01:30.560 And that probably frustrates me as much as anything. 2:01:32.800 --> 2:01:35.360 Well, the other thing that frustrates me is people our age. 2:01:35.440 --> 2:01:38.800 We are half dead. I mean, you're very alive. You're 2:01:38.840 --> 2:01:42.000 staying up on things you have opinions. Then there are 2:01:42.000 --> 2:01:45.080 other people. I know, well I'm old, I'm retired, I'm 2:01:45.120 --> 2:01:48.400 you know, just into lifestyle. They're very weird. 2:01:48.520 --> 2:01:52.800 Yeah, they just start thinking old. They're old because they 2:01:52.840 --> 2:01:53.640 think they're old. 2:01:55.320 --> 2:02:00.000 You know, well you're certainly young, Lucinda. I want to think, 2:02:00.000 --> 2:02:02.480 thank you for taking the time with my audience. 2:02:03.920 --> 2:02:08.240 Well, you're more than welcome. I've enjoyed this conversation. 2:02:09.240 --> 2:02:12.480 Great. Hopefully I asked some questions. We went some places 2:02:12.520 --> 2:02:14.680 that were not we normally go. 2:02:15.560 --> 2:02:16.360 Yeah, we did. 2:02:18.200 --> 2:02:21.080 That's okay, No, that's what I want people who have 2:02:21.120 --> 2:02:24.520 been interviewed, you know, you try and ask to ask 2:02:24.560 --> 2:02:27.360 the same questions because then their eyes roll in the back. 2:02:27.200 --> 2:02:30.920 Of the Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I like that 2:02:31.000 --> 2:02:35.920 you asked different questions. I wasn't expecting a lot of them. 2:02:36.280 --> 2:02:41.160 But that's okay, Okay, you're a rebel. 2:02:41.960 --> 2:02:47.480 Oh you have no idea. I am that person. You 2:02:47.520 --> 2:02:49.960 know what I used to say in the old days 2:02:50.680 --> 2:02:54.800 was I believed in this wave theory. So in the 2:02:54.840 --> 2:02:58.960 fifties the waves came in, everybody was a beat. Nick 2:02:59.480 --> 2:03:03.080 the wave went out and we had Manor G. Krebs 2:03:03.120 --> 2:03:07.080 On Sure he was left on shore then the sixties 2:03:07.320 --> 2:03:12.520 we had uh what's his name, uh Ginsburg, the poet 2:03:12.640 --> 2:03:13.840 he was left on shore. 2:03:14.800 --> 2:03:15.720 Yeah. 2:03:15.800 --> 2:03:19.839 I never wore a leisure suit. I never did anything. 2:03:20.320 --> 2:03:22.040 I stayed true to who I was. 2:03:22.560 --> 2:03:22.920 Yeah. 2:03:23.040 --> 2:03:27.440 But even worse now today people don't even remember the 2:03:27.480 --> 2:03:31.400 way it was. You know, I feel like Grandpa saying, well, 2:03:31.440 --> 2:03:35.360 back in the sixties, back in the seventies, Yeah, when 2:03:35.400 --> 2:03:38.920 people had values and they would say no, you know, 2:03:38.960 --> 2:03:42.280 you talk about being an artist whatever. Everybody say, Oh, 2:03:42.320 --> 2:03:46.240 I can make money, I can get fame. Yes, drives 2:03:46.280 --> 2:03:46.959 me crazy. 2:03:47.800 --> 2:03:52.320 Yeah. Is there you think there's still that that that 2:03:52.480 --> 2:03:53.320 still happens. 2:03:53.600 --> 2:03:58.040 I mean, okay, you're a middle class person. Your father 2:03:58.200 --> 2:04:01.760 was a college professor. We are the same age. We 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:03.760 didn't grow up in the same part of the country. 2:04:04.440 --> 2:04:07.640 But when I went to high school, regular public high school, 2:04:08.360 --> 2:04:11.120 there were kids who were middle class and they were 2:04:11.120 --> 2:04:14.120 the art kids. They were separate from the cool, separate 2:04:14.160 --> 2:04:19.000 from the jock, etc. Etc. And those people became the artists. 2:04:19.640 --> 2:04:23.720 An equal story is Jefferson Airplane. You know, if you're 2:04:23.760 --> 2:04:27.360 a middle class person, you say no. Bill Graham was 2:04:27.400 --> 2:04:30.200 the manager for while. He said, whenever they had any success, 2:04:30.440 --> 2:04:32.040 they didn't want to work. They want to stay home 2:04:32.080 --> 2:04:35.080 and smoke dope. It's like, you know, they had a 2:04:35.120 --> 2:04:40.640 feel for it. They wouldn't do anything for money, whereas today, Yeah, 2:04:40.920 --> 2:04:44.360 if you people won't do anything for money, they'll play 2:04:44.400 --> 2:04:46.240 with dictators, they'll work. 2:04:46.880 --> 2:04:47.080 You know. 2:04:47.120 --> 2:04:50.720 It's like you're saying, you're not cutting the verse from 2:04:50.800 --> 2:04:53.680 the song. Well, we grew up in the era where 2:04:53.720 --> 2:04:57.480 the people who are performing wrote the songs and although 2:04:57.520 --> 2:04:59.880 there are some there are some great intro. 2:05:00.320 --> 2:05:03.400 That was a sorry to interrupt, but that is probably 2:05:03.440 --> 2:05:08.480 the biggest change I think over the you know, over 2:05:08.520 --> 2:05:14.600 the years has been going from artist recording who didn't write, 2:05:14.880 --> 2:05:18.720 to artists recording who wrote their own songs. 2:05:19.040 --> 2:05:20.440 I think this is huge, you I think I was 2:05:20.480 --> 2:05:23.440 talking to somebody the other day and I say, look 2:05:23.440 --> 2:05:27.160 at the frame of reference. When Mariah Carey came in 2:05:27.200 --> 2:05:31.120 the nineties, that was pop. We hadn't had pop like 2:05:31.240 --> 2:05:37.520 that since the sixties. But today everybody was brought up 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:40.320 on that and they think, you know, like what you 2:05:40.360 --> 2:05:43.880 see on TV shows with competition shows, where for us, 2:05:44.880 --> 2:05:48.080 no way. The other thing is there are people our 2:05:48.120 --> 2:05:52.800 age who get plastic surgery and they go on stage 2:05:52.800 --> 2:05:55.960 and play the old hits to people who look old, 2:05:56.040 --> 2:05:59.800 but they you know, it's like, you know, if somebody 2:05:59.800 --> 2:06:04.080 wants to go, fine, but it creeps me out. It's like, yeah, 2:06:05.040 --> 2:06:07.600 especially as I've seen these acts so many times, Like, 2:06:07.640 --> 2:06:09.960 you know, unless you're my friend, whatever, I'm not gonna go. 2:06:10.040 --> 2:06:11.200 I remember when. 2:06:12.760 --> 2:06:15.839 Yeah, well that's just boring. 2:06:16.520 --> 2:06:21.160 I mean, but a lot of people are disheartened. I mean, 2:06:21.400 --> 2:06:24.520 your success came a little later in age, but you're 2:06:24.560 --> 2:06:28.240 continuing to work. There's certain you know, that comes down 2:06:28.280 --> 2:06:31.640 to whether you're an artist, and a lot of people can't. 2:06:31.920 --> 2:06:36.240 They can't. That's I'm an artist first and foremost. You know, 2:06:36.480 --> 2:06:40.680 I live, eat, and breathe and sleep with my art. 2:06:40.840 --> 2:06:44.600 You know, that's the thing. At the risk of sounding idealistic, 2:06:45.000 --> 2:06:47.320 you know, but it's true though. 2:06:48.120 --> 2:06:53.360 Well you know, an artist can say no and won't compromise. 2:06:54.600 --> 2:06:56.840 I mean, you might say, well, I'll cut my set 2:06:56.920 --> 2:07:01.760 short ten minutes, but I'm not you know, strings on 2:07:01.840 --> 2:07:02.480 this track. 2:07:03.040 --> 2:07:11.280 No, Yeah, because everything is made from an artistic perspective, 2:07:11.720 --> 2:07:16.640 you know, So is it gonna help the song or 2:07:16.760 --> 2:07:20.800 is it not? It's that simple, you know. 2:07:21.200 --> 2:07:25.560 Another element and I've had personal experience with this, the 2:07:25.640 --> 2:07:30.840 audience knows. Everybody was. I was on a percentage phrase. 2:07:30.960 --> 2:07:33.720 Oh do the commercial do the ads? No one cares 2:07:33.760 --> 2:07:36.880 about that. Oh there's not that's not true. 2:07:37.760 --> 2:07:43.880 They do. Yeah, they pay attention to everything. And that's 2:07:43.920 --> 2:07:47.400 the other thing is a lot of artists and performers 2:07:47.520 --> 2:07:52.960 underestimate their audience. I think, you know, well, give me 2:07:53.000 --> 2:07:59.320 a little deeper. Well, I mean, I just think, what 2:07:59.520 --> 2:08:01.320 kind of I what you were saying. You might not 2:08:01.440 --> 2:08:03.400 think they care if you take this verse out of 2:08:03.440 --> 2:08:07.360 a song or something, but they pay attention to the versus. 2:08:07.800 --> 2:08:10.720 You know, I have the best fans ever, I think 2:08:10.760 --> 2:08:15.880 in the whole world, because they're loyal. I mean, they're patient. 2:08:16.840 --> 2:08:19.840 You know, they stick with me if I make a 2:08:19.880 --> 2:08:23.440 mistake when I'm performing, They're still there at the end 2:08:23.520 --> 2:08:26.360 of the night. You know, they don't leave. You know, 2:08:27.200 --> 2:08:30.240 they listen to what I'm saying. They pay attention to 2:08:30.320 --> 2:08:33.919 the lyrics and the songs, and they remember my songs 2:08:33.960 --> 2:08:36.320 and they love them and they love me. I feel 2:08:36.360 --> 2:08:42.200 like there's a real family thing there between my fans 2:08:42.240 --> 2:08:42.480 and me. 2:08:43.960 --> 2:08:46.600 Well that's what it's all about today. Because the machine 2:08:46.640 --> 2:08:51.400 doesn't exist like terrestrial radio, I don't know anybody listens 2:08:51.440 --> 2:08:56.400 to terrestrial radio. You know, it's like it's all everybody 2:08:56.880 --> 2:08:59.880 that's talking to my shrink about this earlier today everybody 2:09:00.120 --> 2:09:04.400 their own thing. Now it's like you make your own breaks. 2:09:04.880 --> 2:09:08.600 Nobody is world dominant. Like for all this hype about 2:09:08.640 --> 2:09:13.720 Taylor Swift, I mean, we remember when everybody knew every 2:09:13.760 --> 2:09:15.480 word to every song because it was on the radio 2:09:15.480 --> 2:09:18.640 and we all listen to the radio. Whereas today you 2:09:18.720 --> 2:09:21.440 go around, most people can even name a Taylor Swift song. 2:09:21.560 --> 2:09:24.440 It's not not making it about her because she's really big, 2:09:24.800 --> 2:09:28.360 bad bunny. There's a couple of these people. They are 2:09:29.000 --> 2:09:31.800 The Stones went on tour in seventy two. It was like, 2:09:32.960 --> 2:09:36.400 you know, it's like the second Coming. Everybody can rage, 2:09:36.440 --> 2:09:44.000 can sing satisfaction, jumping Jackflash, we know that shit. Yeah, Okay, Lousen, 2:09:44.120 --> 2:09:48.440 I'm gonna go till next time. This is Bob Left 2:09:48.440 --> 2:10:11.280 Sets