Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsets podcast. My
Speaker 1: guest today is Lucinda Williams. This year published an autobiography,
Speaker 1: Don't Tell Anybody The Secrets I Told You, Lucinda. The
Speaker 1: book came out earlier in the year. What's been the
Speaker 1: aftermath for you personally?
Speaker 2: Well, it's I mean, I've been overwhelmed with great responses
Speaker 2: and great reviews and everything, mostly people telling me they've
Speaker 2: read or they've listened to the audio book. A lot
Speaker 2: of people, a lot of responses about that. The audiobook.
Speaker 2: People seem to really be responding positively to that, and
Speaker 2: that makes me feel good.
Speaker 1: And so you read the audio book yourself? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: was that like doing that?
Speaker 2: It was interesting. I'd never done it before. I Mean,
Speaker 2: the whole experience of writing a book is different than
Speaker 2: anything I've been through, you know. So, I mean I've
Speaker 2: written songs, made gone in and recorded albums and you know,
Speaker 2: done all of that, everything goes along with making an album.
Speaker 2: But it's there's nothing that compares anything I've done in
Speaker 2: the past to writing your own book and all the
Speaker 2: things that go along with that, you know, the editing
Speaker 2: and the the sending, the you know, writing a piece
Speaker 2: and then sending it in for the editor to read,
Speaker 2: and then getting the editors feedback and going back and
Speaker 2: forth about whether that something should be included or not,
Speaker 2: and you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So how did it come about that you actually wrote
Speaker 1: the book?
Speaker 2: Well, for years people have been saying I should write
Speaker 2: a book, you know, because I guess it's because so
Speaker 2: many of my songs. I have a handful of narrative songs,
Speaker 2: and every whenever I perform, I always talk about who
Speaker 2: I wrote the song about, what I wrote it about,
Speaker 2: And you know, I go and try to go into
Speaker 2: as much depth as I can about the songs before
Speaker 2: I sing them when I'm on stage, and the audience
Speaker 2: seems to really like that and respond well to it.
Speaker 1: What was the actual process, Well.
Speaker 2: I got an offer from my manager, Tom Overbeek could
Speaker 2: probably have answer this better.
Speaker 1: But who's also your husband, Let's.
Speaker 2: Say he's awesome my husband, Yes, But anyway, we were
Speaker 2: approached by you know, a couple of different publishing companies
Speaker 2: in New York. Of course they're all in New York City,
Speaker 2: and you know a bunch of meetings were planned where
Speaker 2: I would go and I would meet with the with
Speaker 2: the people at the poshing companies, you know, and they
Speaker 2: were all very enthusiastic, and you know, we would just
Speaker 2: talk about what kind of book I wanted to make,
Speaker 2: write and see, I said, make like I was making
Speaker 2: an album, what kind of book I wanted to write.
Speaker 2: And they were very adamant, all every one of them were.
Speaker 2: They were all very adamant about that it be in
Speaker 2: my own voice, you know, So that was mainly what
Speaker 2: they were concerned about.
Speaker 1: So you made the deal, they said what they want.
Speaker 1: How did you actually write it?
Speaker 2: Right? Well, that was the thing. Before I wrote it,
Speaker 2: I didn't know how to get started. I mean, I
Speaker 2: just didn't know what you know, I'm used to when
Speaker 2: I write songs to getting ready to make an album.
Speaker 2: You know, I like to be in a certain mood
Speaker 2: if I'm going to be writing, And this felt more
Speaker 2: like work, I guess, kind of. You know. I didn't
Speaker 2: have the luxury of being able to. I used to
Speaker 2: have this fantasy that if I ever wrote a book,
Speaker 2: I was going to be you know, like these writers
Speaker 2: you hear about you go away to the mountains and
Speaker 2: live in a cabin for a year, you know, they
Speaker 2: they have they take a hiatus, you know, to write
Speaker 2: the great American novel, and they sit there in their
Speaker 2: cabin and drink whiskey or scotch and smoke cigarettes and
Speaker 2: write their novel. You know, That's what I thought it
Speaker 2: was always going to be like. But it was anything
Speaker 2: but that, you know. I basically grabbed a couple of
Speaker 2: legal pass ads, sat down in my favorite chair, which
Speaker 2: is a good start to be comfortable, and I started writing,
Speaker 2: just as if I were telling someone my life story.
Speaker 2: You know. I put everything in order, but I didn't
Speaker 2: want it to sound like Okay, I was born in
Speaker 2: late Charles, Louisiana, and then I went to this town
Speaker 2: and then I went to you know, I wanted it
Speaker 2: to be well written, and that's what I was mostly
Speaker 2: concerned about. And I was very concerned that my dad
Speaker 2: wasn't alive anymore to kind of oversee my writing, you know,
Speaker 2: some because I could. I could have asked him questions
Speaker 2: and he would have suggested things, and so I felt
Speaker 2: kind of insecure because he wasn't around anymore, and I
Speaker 2: really wanted here's a good example of what it was like.
Speaker 2: I was backstage with Roseanna Cash one time at a show.
Speaker 2: We were doing and we were talking about because she
Speaker 2: had written a book and I was talking about my
Speaker 2: book and everything, and she suddenly broke the conversation and
Speaker 2: said with Sinda, you don't have to be James Joyce,
Speaker 2: and I said, yeah, that's just it. I want to
Speaker 2: be James Joyce. You know. So I was kind of
Speaker 2: sort of holding myself back unnecessarily because I wanted to
Speaker 2: be able to have this well written, you know. I
Speaker 2: wanted the New York Times to like it and everything
Speaker 2: and really want what it really was was. I wanted
Speaker 2: my dad to like it. And I wanted all of
Speaker 2: his writer all these writers I grew up with who
Speaker 2: are had this imminent respect for. I wanted them to
Speaker 2: appreciate it and like it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you finally get over the hub, you sit
Speaker 1: in a comfortable chair, you have the legal pads. The
Speaker 1: hardest part is starting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to have a certain kind of pen
Speaker 2: that I like.
Speaker 1: What kind of pen is that?
Speaker 2: See? I knew you were going to ask me a question.
Speaker 2: I wasn't ready for Wait a minute, Okay, I don't
Speaker 2: have it in front of me. I have to get one.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, irrelevant of the brand name, what's so special
Speaker 1: about that pen.
Speaker 2: I just like the consistency of the ink then.
Speaker 1: It comes out even when you write it, or the
Speaker 1: way it looks on the page.
Speaker 2: Yes, both okay. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's a ballpoint No.
Speaker 2: I don't like ballpoint pens. Never have liked this.
Speaker 1: So is it like a regular nib with an ink pen?
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a John.
Speaker 1: Sorry, we're gonna get a We're gonna get a verdict
Speaker 1: here on the pen.
Speaker 2: I need that pen that a lot.
Speaker 1: So it's one specific pen and you have to fill
Speaker 1: it with ink. No, okay, So here we have the
Speaker 1: pen from John.
Speaker 2: We have the actual pen. Okay, it's called a Precise
Speaker 2: V seven. I've just done it. Commercial.
Speaker 1: Is this You've been your favorite pen for years? How
Speaker 1: do you stumble on this pen?
Speaker 2: I don't know. How do you ever stumble on a
Speaker 2: pen upon a pen? It was just around. I started
Speaker 2: riding with it and liked it. Amazon carries them, yeah, so.
Speaker 1: It could be delivered. Are you a big Amazon person?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I shouldn't be, though, because one time I was
Speaker 2: shopping on Amazon and Steve Earl. I was backstage at
Speaker 2: a venue and Steve Earl is there and he's looked
Speaker 2: over my shoulder. And saw what I was doing, and
Speaker 2: he said, are you shopping on Amazon? And I said yes,
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, I don't go on there. He said,
Speaker 2: that man is that's a bad man. He's a bad man,
Speaker 2: the guy who runs Amazon.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, my opinion is this that I had
Speaker 1: too many times I went to the store and they
Speaker 1: didn't have what I was looking for, whereas I know
Speaker 1: they have it on Amazon. I'm not polluting, I'm not
Speaker 1: driving in Yeah, it's so convenient some things you can
Speaker 1: stop online shopping Amazon, Google. Yeah, but these things are
Speaker 1: here forever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty hard to let go of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're coming to my house seeming every day. So
Speaker 1: how many times did you start and stop and start
Speaker 1: to stop before you found your groove?
Speaker 2: I don't know, probably two or three months.
Speaker 1: Oh really?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the other thing. I was talking to
Speaker 2: a lot of people about writing a book and read
Speaker 2: a lot of other people's autobiographies or biographies before I
Speaker 2: started mine, you know, see how they wrote theirs. And
Speaker 2: a lot of other musicians who had written books offered
Speaker 2: to talk with me about it, or if I needed
Speaker 2: any help, please give them a call. That that kind
Speaker 2: of thing, And and several of them told me how
Speaker 2: long it took them to write their books, and I
Speaker 2: was a I was amazed. Actually. I think Ruis Springsteen
Speaker 2: said ten years. I think Roseanne Cash said seven years.
Speaker 2: You know, so that made me feel better about it.
Speaker 1: Okay, so how long did it actually take you to
Speaker 1: write it?
Speaker 2: I think it was two or three years overall, and
Speaker 2: which sounds amazing. It's not like I was sitting in
Speaker 2: the chair for two or three years without moving. But
Speaker 2: it's just more about life getting in the way, you know,
Speaker 2: and we had we were still touring and recording. You know,
Speaker 2: I was trying to write this book in the middle
Speaker 2: of all the other stuff I had to do.
Speaker 1: Okay, you said something a few minutes ago about getting
Speaker 1: in the mood to make a record. Mm hmm. Tell
Speaker 1: me about that.
Speaker 2: Well, I meant getting in the mood to write okngs right, yeah,
Speaker 2: to record for the record.
Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's slow down. Do you say, oh, I
Speaker 1: want to make a record, I better write songs, or
Speaker 1: you're writing songs, say well, I have enough songs to
Speaker 1: make a record.
Speaker 2: Usually that's a good question. I prefer it's happened both ways.
Speaker 2: But I prefer to just be writing songs and then
Speaker 2: have enough to go in and make a record. And
Speaker 2: I've done it both ways. I've done it that way
Speaker 2: where I'm just writing and I'm not I don't feel
Speaker 2: pressured about having to get in the studio by a
Speaker 2: certain time. But I've also had that pressure a little bit,
Speaker 2: you know, like we have to go in the studio.
Speaker 2: We've got to have a record out by next year
Speaker 2: or something, so you know, we got to get these songs.
Speaker 2: I'd rather just concentrate on the songwriting and you know,
Speaker 2: be able to be spontaneous.
Speaker 1: So what does that look like? Are you standing in
Speaker 1: the shower to go, oh, man, I got it? I
Speaker 1: got to go to write this song down.
Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah, I do. I come up with ideas in
Speaker 2: this shower quite often, actually, or when I first wake
Speaker 2: up and I'm in that zone between a sleep and awake,
Speaker 2: you know, and your brain's in a special kind of place.
Speaker 2: I get a lot of times I lay in bed
Speaker 2: like that before I actually get up and think I've
Speaker 2: got lines running through my head and then I have
Speaker 2: to find the voice record on my phone or something
Speaker 2: that I've got to get it down right away before
Speaker 2: I forget.
Speaker 1: Okay, do this. Do the words come with the music
Speaker 1: or the words come down and then you have the music.
Speaker 2: Lately what it's been, the words come and then I
Speaker 2: add the music. But occasionally it happens both ways. Occasionally
Speaker 2: I'll a melody will pop out with some words like
Speaker 2: maybe a hook line.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you could be in the shower, you could
Speaker 1: be in the bitter and spontaneous. Do you ever sit
Speaker 1: down and say I have to write a song and
Speaker 1: start writing a.
Speaker 2: Song only if I'm being asked to write a song
Speaker 2: for something like a movie or something like that. It's
Speaker 2: not one of the things I enjoy doing as much.
Speaker 2: I call it writing on demand. You know Steve Earl
Speaker 2: is speaking of Steve. He's great at that. He can
Speaker 2: just whip up these songs, you know, on demand like
Speaker 2: that for movies or TV shows or that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the book. You're very personal in
Speaker 1: the book. Some of these people are still alive. How
Speaker 1: did you choose what to reveal and to what degree
Speaker 1: were you self conscious about telling these truths?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, when it came to talking about previous
Speaker 2: romantic partners, obviously I didn't want to start talking about
Speaker 2: you know, the technical, you know, how it was in
Speaker 2: bed with this person or something like that. You know,
Speaker 2: other than that too much alcohol may have been consumed
Speaker 2: and the night didn't go as well as I'd hoped.
Speaker 2: I think there's something in there about that with one
Speaker 2: of the guys.
Speaker 1: You know, well, there are a lot of guys. I
Speaker 1: love this song by the Tubes called boy Crazy. Would
Speaker 1: you say that you became boy crazy?
Speaker 2: At some point I knew, See this is one of
Speaker 2: my fears because I had so many guys listed. In
Speaker 2: every every other page I talk about being smitten with
Speaker 2: someone and worried that there were too much of that
Speaker 2: in the book. You know, I'm writing too much about
Speaker 2: these this guy and that guy and the other and
Speaker 2: you know, and now sure enough you're asking me about that.
Speaker 1: I was. I was asking you that as more of
Speaker 1: a personality direction thing. One of the things I thought
Speaker 1: was great about the book was you talked about your crushes.
Speaker 1: You talked about your relationships in a way that people don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not judging you for that, I just think seriously,
Speaker 1: but I'm asking how you judge yourself, not how.
Speaker 2: I well, I just I tried to look at it
Speaker 2: as as if you know, someone else were writing it
Speaker 2: and how it I feel, you know. And also I
Speaker 2: learned a little bit about that by reading some of
Speaker 2: the other artists books, like Carly Simon's book was Pretty
Speaker 2: you know, she talked about her relationship with James Taylor,
Speaker 2: and there are just a couple of things I thought,
Speaker 2: wow when I read the book, you know, like that
Speaker 2: might have been a little TMI. You know.
Speaker 1: Well, what resonated for me was is said, what kind
Speaker 1: of guy you like? You would feel a spark and
Speaker 1: you would be active as opposed to passive.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, well, that's great that you got that impression
Speaker 2: of me, wow, because I'm so shy.
Speaker 1: Actually, well, I can talk about relationships in my life
Speaker 1: and biggest relationships when I was took action in a
Speaker 1: way that I would never take action, and I can't
Speaker 1: sit here and tell you why. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I did something was completely out
Speaker 1: of character.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it usually takes a little bit of wine for
Speaker 2: me to do that.
Speaker 1: Two of my most serious relationships went on for years
Speaker 1: that I took action, and I both times I could
Speaker 1: not replicate that. I don't know what I mean, I
Speaker 1: you know, I just acted in a way that I
Speaker 1: never would before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great though.
Speaker 1: It is great, but as you talk about being a
Speaker 1: shy person, it's not something you can manufacture. Someone said,
Speaker 1: go do that. He said, no, no, no, I'm not.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got married to Greg Sowders of the
Speaker 1: Long Writers, who I certainly know from the publishing world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you talked about.
Speaker 1: Previous relationships of the book. Why did you decide to
Speaker 1: get married then?
Speaker 2: Probably because when I you know, when I start the
Speaker 2: answer out with probably, that means I don't really know.
Speaker 2: Probably because he told me he was my ace and
Speaker 2: the hole. You know, I'm the guy who's gonna be
Speaker 2: here for you when all the other ones have left,
Speaker 2: And I was just ready to hear that, you know, And.
Speaker 1: Okay, how hard was it to end it?
Speaker 2: It was hard? You know. Actually I remember when he
Speaker 2: moved in with me. The day he moved in with me,
Speaker 2: I had all kinds of concerns and doubts. And you know,
Speaker 2: because I was very and I still am very independent,
Speaker 2: and I like my quiet alone time, especially if I'm
Speaker 2: going to write. So basically he became a born again Christian.
Speaker 1: Oh why you were married?
Speaker 2: Well, towards the end of it, you.
Speaker 1: Know that's enough to end a relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: One thing in the book that you mentioned numerous times.
Speaker 1: Is your OCD your obsessive compulsive disorder? Tell us about that?
Speaker 2: Oh God, well, it's a real thing, for one thing,
Speaker 2: because you know, people joke about it a lot. Oh
Speaker 2: I've got OCD and all of this, but they don't
Speaker 2: really usually, you know, because if you really have it,
Speaker 2: I mean, it could be a serious thing, get in
Speaker 2: the way of life. I heard that Bob Dylan had
Speaker 2: a similar thing that I have, where you had you
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, you have to wash your hands
Speaker 2: on a regular basis, which is a good thing. But
Speaker 2: sometimes I've washed my hands when I don't really have to.
Speaker 2: I just think, I do you know I don't like
Speaker 2: to touch door knobs because other people's hands have touched them. God,
Speaker 2: this is so embarrassing.
Speaker 1: I can't I have OCD too. I saw a special
Speaker 1: OCD doctor about it. Really helped. Okay, I say, Lucinda,
Speaker 1: We're gonna go out for a burger. You lock the door,
Speaker 1: can you leave or do you have to check to
Speaker 1: see if the walk.
Speaker 2: I can leave? Yeah, I don't have that kind.
Speaker 1: Do you have any hoarding tendencies.
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I do save certain things
Speaker 2: like memorabilia, photographs and that sort of thing, but I
Speaker 2: don't like clutter. So if i'm I wouldn't be able
Speaker 2: to be a hoarder because of the clutter.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about making a record. You say that
Speaker 1: you like what you want, but let's go one step further.
Speaker 1: Let's just assume you're in complete control. Let's say you're
Speaker 1: mixing the final track. How hard will you be for
Speaker 1: you to walk away and say this is the one.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be hard because I would know that this
Speaker 2: is the one, you know. But the main thing with
Speaker 2: in the studio when you say I'm in control, that's
Speaker 2: exactly it. You know. If I am in control, then
Speaker 2: I'm able to decide which track is it is you know?
Speaker 2: Or if this is the track you know, as opposed
Speaker 2: to debating it with the producer or the engineer because
Speaker 2: everybody's got their own opinion.
Speaker 1: I'm asking something a little bit different. Okay, Let's say
Speaker 1: that you are alone in the room, you were totally
Speaker 1: in control. Can you make a decision easily and move
Speaker 1: on or do you constantly ruminate or on the decision well,
Speaker 1: maybe it could be better, maybe this is a little worse.
Speaker 2: It's kind of a hard question because I've done both things,
Speaker 2: and I might do one or the other. But I
Speaker 2: like to think that, yes, I would be able to
Speaker 2: make a decision and walk away.
Speaker 1: Okay, because that's a classic OCD thing. Yeah, so you
Speaker 1: have your washing your hands, you have touching the doorknob.
Speaker 1: What else would you classify as your OCD?
Speaker 2: That's it? I mean, you know what I other people
Speaker 2: consider OCD. I might not like I like things in order.
Speaker 2: I like things to be organized. I probably got that
Speaker 2: from my dad because he was like that, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't like clutter. I don't think that's OCD though.
Speaker 1: That's just Okay, we're having dinner. We're having dinner, but
Speaker 1: we're just talking. The silverware is laid out, and you
Speaker 1: notice that my silverware is askew. Are you going to
Speaker 1: reach over and straighten it?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: And do you ever get in OCD loops and are
Speaker 1: tortured by it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: And what do you do to get out of the loop?
Speaker 1: If anything?
Speaker 2: Well, hand sanitizer has been a game changer because then
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily have to find water and soap to
Speaker 2: wash my hands. I can just put you know, sprint,
Speaker 2: some hand sanitizer on, and then I'm good to go.
Speaker 2: So it saves a lot of time. But I need
Speaker 2: to have one of those with me all the time.
Speaker 2: It's like my little drug or my little you know,
Speaker 2: kind of it calms me down.
Speaker 1: But let's say you're home alone, you're not going anywhere,
Speaker 1: and you wash your hands. How long will it take
Speaker 1: you to wash your hands?
Speaker 2: Oh? You probably read that book Boy who Couldn't Stop washing.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm certainly aware of this, and I have my
Speaker 1: own issues. That's why I'm asking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a normal time, you know. I mean, I
Speaker 2: prefer that the water is hot as opposed to cold.
Speaker 2: But even if there's no hot water, I just wash
Speaker 2: my hands and go about my day.
Speaker 1: Okay. So you have this itinerant lifestyle. Once you hit
Speaker 1: your late teams and you don't have great commercial success
Speaker 1: for the better part of twenty years, and you're working,
Speaker 1: as you say, a lot of low level jobs. You're
Speaker 1: working in record stores, et cetera. How did you keep
Speaker 1: your mood up?
Speaker 2: Antidepressants? Probably just you know, the group of people I
Speaker 2: associated with were fairly up people, and you know, I
Speaker 2: tried to surround myself with positive people for the most part.
Speaker 1: Do you take it or did you take antidepressants?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I did, and I do.
Speaker 1: What was the space in between? You were off antidepressants
Speaker 1: for a while.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well it took a while before I started taking
Speaker 2: them because you know, I didn't have anyone prescribe them.
Speaker 2: I mean, it took a while to find, you know,
Speaker 2: the right doctor to talk to about it and everything.
Speaker 2: But one of them is supposed to target OCD, supposed
Speaker 2: to help with that.
Speaker 1: So which one is that?
Speaker 2: Effects or is?
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah, I know what effects her is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's supposed to help with that.
Speaker 1: And you take something along with effects.
Speaker 2: Or well, I'm kind of confused right now. That's what
Speaker 2: I'm talking to the Dodger about, is whether affectser is
Speaker 2: working on its own or if we need to, you know,
Speaker 2: add something else or take something else instead. You have
Speaker 2: to try out a few different ones to see which
Speaker 2: one works better. It sounds like you know this already.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah I do, but I know my story. I'm
Speaker 1: getting your story. So you know, there's benefits to antidepressants,
Speaker 1: but I've never taken a drug without side effects. So
Speaker 1: do you find the antidepressants negative affect you in any way,
Speaker 1: creatively or in other ways.
Speaker 2: No, it's I've just felt the positive effects which have
Speaker 2: been just lifting me out of this black I used
Speaker 2: to call it a black cloud. You know that kind
Speaker 2: of settles over you and you know, just or having
Speaker 2: a sense of well being.
Speaker 1: Was this something you felt from a young age.
Speaker 2: I've probably had problems with that at a young age,
Speaker 2: but just didn't recognize didn't know what it was, you know,
Speaker 2: just I probably looked at it more as mood swings,
Speaker 2: you know, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Were you ever in existential despair? Like maybe obviously you
Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide because you're still here, But was that
Speaker 1: something you say like, man, I just can't take it anymore.
Speaker 2: I felt like, man, I can't take it anymore. But
Speaker 2: that was as far as it when it was that thought.
Speaker 2: We've all felt that way.
Speaker 1: I certainly think so. You know, it's hard to get
Speaker 1: an honest take from somebody. Let's switch gears to the beginning.
Speaker 1: You're born in Louisiana, your father ends up working in Arkansas.
Speaker 1: What the people from the north not get about those
Speaker 1: states in the South.
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking that. That's the million dollar question. Well,
Speaker 2: what they don't get is that we're not all backwards.
Speaker 2: We're not all lazy or stupid or uneducated. We're not
Speaker 2: all races, okay, And I mean I was doing this
Speaker 2: kind of goes along with what you're at. I was
Speaker 2: doing an event one time where I was being interviewed
Speaker 2: in front of an audience, and I played some songs
Speaker 2: and then the interview is done as part of the performance,
Speaker 2: and then the audience was allowed to ask me questions afterwards.
Speaker 2: And this woman leaned over and very seriously she asked.
Speaker 2: She said, you know, I would really love to travel
Speaker 2: down south sometime. But she said, what I really want
Speaker 2: to know is is it safe? Right? I mean that
Speaker 2: was of serious. That was you know, is it safe? Well,
Speaker 2: you know that answers your question right there.
Speaker 1: Well, I lived with a woman for years who was
Speaker 1: from Tallahassee, which certainly you can go back a couple
Speaker 1: of decades was more Georgia than South, and there were
Speaker 1: certain certain things who were defined. She would say, you know,
Speaker 1: it's getting cold in here. It took me a long
Speaker 1: time race that man raised the window. We're in the north.
Speaker 1: We would say, can you raise the window? But there
Speaker 1: would always be these little kids surround that you got
Speaker 1: to pick up them.
Speaker 2: That's funny.
Speaker 1: And her father was extremely successful financially and ran in
Speaker 1: that crowd and drinking was part of the culture. It
Speaker 1: was not a class thing whatsoever.
Speaker 2: No, No, that's not a class thing because I grew
Speaker 2: up with around all our of riders and they can
Speaker 2: certainly drink, they know how to drink. Yeah, I learned
Speaker 2: how to drink probably, you know, hanging around in that crowd.
Speaker 1: And to what degree were you and still a consumer
Speaker 1: of alcohol?
Speaker 2: Not anymore than socially, you know, So you don't have.
Speaker 1: An addictive personality?
Speaker 2: No, well I don't know. Maybe I do, but but
Speaker 2: I didn't get addicted to anything.
Speaker 1: So we're the exact same age. You're growing up in
Speaker 1: Louisiana in the fifties and early sixties. What is it like?
Speaker 1: You say your family didn't have that much money, but
Speaker 1: you weren't aware of it. Were you into the modern
Speaker 1: music where you're listening to the Beach Boys in the
Speaker 1: Four Seasons where you're watching my three sons? What was
Speaker 1: everyday life like?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we all wanted it to be like
Speaker 2: leave it to Beaver, but it was not Leave it
Speaker 2: to beaver. You know, there was no mom in a
Speaker 2: nice dress, wearing heels, fitzing dinner and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: You know, it was a little it could be a
Speaker 2: little chaotic at times. You know. There was my dad,
Speaker 2: who was a poet and a college professor, not making
Speaker 2: that much money, married to a woman who had was
Speaker 2: dealing with mental illness a lot, and then three kids,
Speaker 2: you know, running around. I don't know how he did it.
Speaker 2: I mean, he would still be writing. I remember looking
Speaker 2: seeing him sitting in a corner of the in the
Speaker 2: living room with his head bent down over a padded paper.
Speaker 2: You know. He was either reading or writing all the time.
Speaker 1: So he could tune out the chaos.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he could tune out the chaos. And I
Speaker 2: wish I'd learned how to do that.
Speaker 1: So you're someone who needs your own space, can't be interrupted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But my dad, at the same time, he was
Speaker 2: very we really bonded from an early age, and he
Speaker 2: was there for me, you know, when my mother might
Speaker 2: have just not been able to deal with things on
Speaker 2: any given day, and my dad was always there. You know,
Speaker 2: he was very he stayed very aware, and he was
Speaker 2: very open minded and you know, very intelligent and understood
Speaker 2: what was going on. You know. He was very empathetic
Speaker 2: towards my mother is the thing. So you know, we
Speaker 2: didn't go up with this feeling of you know, he
Speaker 2: always said to the kids I had, there were three
Speaker 2: of us, I was the oldest. He always said to us,
Speaker 2: her fault. She can't help it, she's not well, you know,
Speaker 2: so we had somewhere to put it.
Speaker 1: Did your parents ultimately break up because your father met
Speaker 1: someone new or it was time?
Speaker 2: That's a good question, because he did meet someone new,
Speaker 2: but I think that was after they were already broken up.
Speaker 2: I think it was because it was time.
Speaker 1: And how hard was that for him.
Speaker 2: I don't remember it being, you know, really heavy and
Speaker 2: traumatic or anything. As a kid, I remember feeling almost relieved,
Speaker 2: you know, because there have been so much yelling and
Speaker 2: fighting and all of that that I think I was
Speaker 2: kind of relieved that that would be over with, you know,
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have to listen to the arguing all the time.
Speaker 1: So your mother moves out. How much contact do you
Speaker 1: have with your mother then?
Speaker 2: Quite a bit. She lived in New Orleans. After that,
Speaker 2: she stayed, she loved it. She was from Louisiana, originally,
Speaker 2: and her family was all there. So she lived in
Speaker 2: New Orleans and I would go visit her from time
Speaker 2: to time and stay at her apartment, and you know,
Speaker 2: we were close. You know, it was a challenging relationship
Speaker 2: and difficult at times, but you know I loved her
Speaker 2: and I knew she loved me, and you know, there
Speaker 2: wasn't any acting out or anything on her part with me.
Speaker 2: She saved that for my dad.
Speaker 1: So when she moved out, she lived far away, New Orleans.
Speaker 2: And how often we were in Baton Rouge? Okay, the
Speaker 2: university LSU Louisiana State University is located there, and that's
Speaker 2: when my dad was teaching, So we were living there,
Speaker 2: and she lived in New Orleans, which is right next
Speaker 2: to Baton Rouge. It's an easy drive.
Speaker 1: And how often would you see her, I don't know,
Speaker 1: probably once a month or something. And how often would
Speaker 1: you talk to her?
Speaker 2: Maybe once a week, It's hard to remember.
Speaker 1: And when you interacted with her, did you end up
Speaker 1: being the parent.
Speaker 2: Sometimes? Yeah? I know all about that stuff.
Speaker 1: Okay, So your father brings home one of his students
Speaker 1: who is not even half a generation older than you are,
Speaker 1: and you're just hitting puberty yourself. How'd you cope with that?
Speaker 1: And could you ever accept it?
Speaker 2: It was difficult. I didn't. I tried to cope with it,
Speaker 2: but again, it was one of those kind of strained
Speaker 2: relationships where you know, I've wanted it to be a
Speaker 2: certain way, but it was you know, you can't really
Speaker 2: take those things and force them into a certain place,
Speaker 2: you know. I think she was trying really hard, maybe
Speaker 2: too hard, to you know, fill this certain role, and
Speaker 2: I think I felt I remember feeling a little intimidated,
Speaker 2: a little shy around her, you know.
Speaker 1: And then as a young person in your living in Chile,
Speaker 1: what's it like being an American living in Chile in
Speaker 1: a you know, a pre you know, modern technology era.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we had a stereo system and I had
Speaker 2: Beatles albums. I was able to get a hold of
Speaker 2: him somehow or another and was listening to those NonStop.
Speaker 2: And there was a chile and folks sing were by
Speaker 2: the name of Violeta Potta, who I discovered while I
Speaker 2: was living there, who I just absolutely loved, and she
Speaker 2: was kind of like the John Bayez of Chile. My
Speaker 2: dad was friends with. Her brother was the poet nikon
Speaker 2: Or PoTA, who my dad was, became close friends with
Speaker 2: and that's how I discovered VIOLETA. Potter.
Speaker 1: Let's go back, how did you discover the Beatles?
Speaker 2: Are we hearing them on the radio and falling in
Speaker 2: love with the songs and eventually, you know, getting the
Speaker 2: albums and or the singles?
Speaker 1: Were you definitely a Beatles girl as opposed to the
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was a Beatles girl and then I was
Speaker 2: a Rolling Stones squirl. I mean it sort of happened
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, But I loved the
Speaker 2: Rolling Stones, loved and loved them.
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you were in high school, how would
Speaker 1: you be described? What kind of person?
Speaker 2: Creative? Friendly, cute?
Speaker 1: Well? Were you one of those people they say, well,
Speaker 1: she's hip and cool, but she's hangs with the yard crowd,
Speaker 1: or she hangs with us, she's one of us, or
Speaker 1: she's you know, two cool, she's hanging with the cheerleaders.
Speaker 1: Where were you?
Speaker 2: No, God, I was not with the cheerleaders. I was
Speaker 2: not with the with the gym crowd. You know. The
Speaker 2: working out I failed. I got zero's in Jim. I
Speaker 2: hated it. I tried to be on the girls softball
Speaker 2: team and that failed. Miserably because they were so competitive
Speaker 2: and so mean spirited. I didn't like mean spirited people.
Speaker 2: I actually had a lot of guys as friends and
Speaker 2: I would hang out with them a lot.
Speaker 1: Are you physically active, No, you had a stroke, But
Speaker 1: before and after that, are you physically active?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right now I'm working out with the trainer and
Speaker 2: lifting weights in the gym. It's a combination. I'm working
Speaker 2: with somebody who's a physical fitness trainer as well as
Speaker 2: a physical therapist.
Speaker 1: Okay, so what point do you pick up the guitar?
Speaker 2: When I was twelve ninety sixty five, which is the
Speaker 2: height of the folk music boom, which I was really into.
Speaker 1: And tell me about moving to Mexico.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my dad received a grant to go
Speaker 2: teach in Mexico for a year and live there or
Speaker 2: for a year. That's a lot of the reasons we
Speaker 2: were in other countries was he would receive these, you know,
Speaker 2: visiting professorship grants. I'm not sure what they were called,
Speaker 2: but some kind of grant to go live in another
Speaker 2: country and teach there, work there for the time he
Speaker 2: was there.
Speaker 1: And do you speak fluent Spanish?
Speaker 2: I can get by. I wouldn't say it was fluid,
Speaker 2: but you know, because I forget a lot of my verbs.
Speaker 2: If I lived somewhere for a while right now where
Speaker 2: I had to speak Spanish all the time, I would
Speaker 2: probably it would improve.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you get a guitar. Is it a nylon
Speaker 1: string wide necked folk guitar? Is it a narrow string
Speaker 1: steel guitar?
Speaker 2: It's a it's an acoustic, but just a regular steel
Speaker 2: string acoustic guitar from what I understand, from what I remember,
Speaker 2: one of my dad's writing friends, his name was Bill Harrison.
Speaker 2: He wrote a book called Rollerball, which was made into
Speaker 2: a movie, and another book called Pretty Baby, which was
Speaker 2: made into a movie also, And he was a really
Speaker 2: close old friend of my dad's. And from what I understand,
Speaker 2: he had left a guitar. He had this old broken
Speaker 2: guitar that he left at the house one day and
Speaker 2: I picked it up and just you know, looked at
Speaker 2: it and tried to play it a little. My dad
Speaker 2: saw me have an interest in it and he bought
Speaker 2: me a Dad ended up buying me a silver tone
Speaker 2: guitar from Sears and Roebuck. That was my first guitar.
Speaker 1: And how did you learn how to play it.
Speaker 2: Well, I got dad got me this guy to come
Speaker 2: over once a week who taught guitar lessons, and he
Speaker 2: was he had a rock band in town, and he
Speaker 2: was also a creative writing student. So he had been
Speaker 2: he had been at some of my dad's classes, and
Speaker 2: I guess they had been talking, and you know, he said, well,
Speaker 2: I give guitar lesson. So, you know, my dad arrange
Speaker 2: for her to come over the house once a week
Speaker 2: and sit with me and give me guitar lessons. And
Speaker 2: it took okay.
Speaker 1: So in the mid to late sixties, someone would play
Speaker 1: the guitar. You would go to somebody's house and everybody
Speaker 1: would sit there and would sing. Were you the person
Speaker 1: who would bring the guitar and sing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was the person who would bring. Or they
Speaker 2: would come over our house and we'd be sitting around
Speaker 2: in the living room. My dad would lean over to
Speaker 2: me and say, honey, why don't you go get your
Speaker 2: guitar and come sing a couple of songs. He was
Speaker 2: real proud of me, and I guess he kind of
Speaker 2: liked to show me off a little bit. And I
Speaker 2: would go and get my guitar. You know, it would
Speaker 2: be in another room of the house, and so I'd
Speaker 2: go get it and come back, and so I had
Speaker 2: a What that meant was that my first audience was
Speaker 2: comprised of these brilliant minds, you know, these writers who
Speaker 2: knew everything there was to know about literature and writing,
Speaker 2: and they're listening to me, and you know, I mean
Speaker 2: I was still developing, trying to find my voice. And
Speaker 2: what I remember at the very beginning was, you know,
Speaker 2: people coming over to me and saying, kind of patting
Speaker 2: my shoulder, is saying, you know, telling me I had soul,
Speaker 2: which basically meant I wasn't there yet, but keep going
Speaker 2: because there was something there. You know, they could hear
Speaker 2: something in there, even though I hadn't perfected it yet.
Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly wasn't joined by Azer Judy Collins.
Speaker 1: What's the difference between Louisiana and Arkansas, Baton Rouge and Fayetteville.
Speaker 2: That is such a good question. I wish more people
Speaker 2: would ask questions like that, because you know, a lot
Speaker 2: of people think the South is it's all the same
Speaker 2: in the South, and that's so not true. It's probably
Speaker 2: similar to like I want I might ask or wonder,
Speaker 2: what's the difference between Maryland and Connecticut or something like that.
Speaker 2: You know, well, the food would be, you know, the
Speaker 2: food that was the history of food that you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, these are modern times now, so you might
Speaker 2: not find this true now, but like back in the
Speaker 2: fifties and sixties, you could probably find more of a
Speaker 2: difference between the states. But I mean that's true everywhere.
Speaker 2: I think. Now, you know, things have become more homogenized,
Speaker 2: and you know, like the strip malls across America and
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Those have taken over. So now
Speaker 2: you can't tell the difference as much. But back when
Speaker 2: you had the mom and pop stores and the mom
Speaker 2: and pop cafes and restaurants, that's when you would be
Speaker 2: able to tell the difference more. Probably like Louisiana, you
Speaker 2: would find more seafood and shell fish dishes that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. You know. Well, it's because of the Cajun influence,
Speaker 2: the Creole influence.
Speaker 1: And what was Faydeville like, And.
Speaker 2: It was a beautiful, almost ideal with little town sitting
Speaker 2: in the Ozarks, an incredibly beautiful area the Ozark Mountains,
Speaker 2: you know, and the campus was a beautiful campus, very
Speaker 2: progressive town. Like if you were going to live in Arkansas,
Speaker 2: you would want to live in Fayetteville, probably because politically
Speaker 2: it was more progressive than the rest of the state.
Speaker 2: You know, Bill Clinton was from Arkansas and he and
Speaker 2: my dad got to be friends.
Speaker 1: When did they become friends winning Bill's.
Speaker 2: Career, well, probably during the time I think when he
Speaker 2: was governor and at a certain point then during that
Speaker 2: time and and you know, there have been some really
Speaker 2: talented famous people from Arkansas at Glenn Campbell and the
Speaker 2: people there are just really cool, friendly. It seems to
Speaker 2: be a creative bunch. But that might be because I was,
Speaker 2: you know, we were my dad was at the university there,
Speaker 2: and it was a college town, and you know, like
Speaker 2: most college towns, there are a lot of progressive people
Speaker 2: living there or working at the university or students going
Speaker 2: to school there. You know, so lots of pot smoking,
Speaker 2: lots of the seventies was a pretty really creative time
Speaker 2: to be there. There are a lot of hippies people
Speaker 2: moving there because they could get land pretty cheaply, and
Speaker 2: you know, these the hippie tots would be moving there
Speaker 2: and building these little cabins out in the country and
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: You keep on talking about your father's friends. Was he
Speaker 1: the type of person who was collecting friends in the
Speaker 1: center of the universe, always had an entourage. What was
Speaker 1: that going on?
Speaker 2: Yes, he loved he loved to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And what was the food like back in the day
Speaker 1: in Arkansas as opposed to Louisiana.
Speaker 2: It was probably more well, of course, depending on where
Speaker 2: you went, but the native food would have been, you know,
Speaker 2: like country cooking, you know, tam bashed potatoes, black eyed peas,
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in an era, you're a little young, but
Speaker 1: this is when all the racial stuff is happening in
Speaker 1: the South. A lot is happening in Mississippi. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a lot happening in Memphis, was just over the river
Speaker 1: from Arkansas. What was your experience with racial unrest and
Speaker 1: the quest for equal rights for all?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I remember it being just part
Speaker 2: of the culture. There was a white's only sign. I
Speaker 2: remember as when I was in high school. I'd seen
Speaker 2: it somewhere on the outside of a shop. It said
Speaker 2: whites only, or you know, you would see that from
Speaker 2: time to time. And my boyfriend and I jumped at
Speaker 2: our bicules and rode over there was spray spray painted
Speaker 2: over it. And my high school was I was very
Speaker 2: active as a teenager protest movements and marches and demonstrations
Speaker 2: and all of that. I jumped into all of that
Speaker 2: with great fervor. And my high school. A couple of
Speaker 2: times I showed up at school and the kids would
Speaker 2: be marching around the school as a protest. It was
Speaker 2: almost like the union or it was almost like a
Speaker 2: picket line where you didn't want to cross through, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay. I was living in Connecticut at that particular time,
Speaker 1: and there was a lot big social movement. We were protesting,
Speaker 1: and there were people on the other side, but we
Speaker 1: get the impression as you went down South, the people
Speaker 1: on the other side had more fervor, were more pissed
Speaker 1: about the people who were progressive. Is that true?
Speaker 2: You mean the people who are the racist people?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the people who didn't like you protesting.
Speaker 2: Oh you mean racist rednecks in the South. Yes, go
Speaker 2: ahead and say it, go ahead and say that's okay.
Speaker 1: So what was it like being you know, you're a
Speaker 1: big liberal protesting against the war and for women's rights, etc.
Speaker 1: What are the racist rednecks have to say about that?
Speaker 2: They weren't real happy, just like you said. I think
Speaker 2: that was a global issue, you know, at the time.
Speaker 1: So you moved to Mexico with your father, and you
Speaker 1: don't go to school, no.
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't. I'd been keep out of school for
Speaker 2: being involved in these demonstrations in Marshes and as a
Speaker 2: form of protest. One morning in school, I refused to
Speaker 2: save the pledge of allegiance because we're in Vietnam, and
Speaker 2: I was kicked. They added that to my suspension and
Speaker 2: I went home and my dad said, that's okay, honey,
Speaker 2: We'll get you an ACLU lawyer, you know, and he did,
Speaker 2: and it proved to be unconstitutional. So I got let
Speaker 2: back in school. But because i'd been suspended or expelled,
Speaker 2: I didn't have my pay proper paperwork to be able
Speaker 2: to get into school in Mexico. So I was just
Speaker 2: out of school the entire year that I would have
Speaker 2: been a senior in high school. And I just read.
Speaker 2: I became a voracious reader, and you know, listen to
Speaker 2: my records and play guitar and learned songs and I
Speaker 2: was very productive actually during that year out of school.
Speaker 1: So are you still a big reader today?
Speaker 2: Probably? Not as much, because I had so much more
Speaker 2: free time back then than I do now. It's usually
Speaker 2: now a toss up between reading or working on a song.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in Mexico. This is when you first start
Speaker 1: to play out. Yeah, how did that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, that was me sitting in the living room performing
Speaker 2: with There was a friend of the families who his
Speaker 2: name was Clark Jones, who we'd met in Arkansas, or
Speaker 2: meeting in New Orleans when we were living there, and
Speaker 2: I think he was a friend of my mother's in
Speaker 2: the beginning. And he was a folk, a bonafide folk,
Speaker 2: and he's sort of reminded me of somebody like Pete Seeger.
Speaker 2: He could play multiple instruments, guitar, ukulele, auto harp, and
Speaker 2: he knew all these old folk songs, the traditional folk songs,
Speaker 2: and so we would sit around and play music in
Speaker 2: the house. And he came to visit us in Mexico
Speaker 2: and we were performing in the living room for friends
Speaker 2: of the families, friends of my dad's. One of the
Speaker 2: guys who was over at the house at night worked
Speaker 2: for the State Department, and Clark and I sat and
Speaker 2: sang some songs and the State department. Guy said to
Speaker 2: my dad, Wow, this sounds pretty they sound pretty good.
Speaker 2: What if we I've got an idea, why don't we?
Speaker 2: Min Or and I try to get set up some
Speaker 2: shows for them to perform around Mexico at different schools
Speaker 2: and places. And he figured it would be a good
Speaker 2: you know, like an ambassadorship kind of, you know, a
Speaker 2: good way to improved the relationship between the United States
Speaker 2: and Mexico. And so that's what we did. So Clark
Speaker 2: drove his little car and I sat in the front seat,
Speaker 2: and we stayed in motels and roadside ends and you know,
Speaker 2: and did these shows as a duo Clark Jones. They
Speaker 2: called me Cindy Williams back then, and the Mexican audience
Speaker 2: just loved it. They just ate it up. We did
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan songs at Peter Paul and Mary and I
Speaker 2: wasn't really riding at that time.
Speaker 1: And you were living in Mexico where you're smoking dope.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to help meet with these kids in
Speaker 2: the park not too far from our house, and these
Speaker 2: Mexican hippie kids smoke pot and they would always try
Speaker 2: to get me to go to Wahaka for the mushrooms,
Speaker 2: you know, they would say, come on, Tony was you know,
Speaker 2: we have to go to Wahaca for the mushrooms. And
Speaker 2: there was this one guy who I was attracted to,
Speaker 2: and he kept saying he wanted to tenero sexel qiero sexel,
Speaker 2: I want to have sex. And you know, I knew
Speaker 2: what that meant at the time, but it wasn't going
Speaker 2: to happen. And my dad found out I was smoking
Speaker 2: pot in the park and he got upset, not because
Speaker 2: of the pot, but he said, you know, I could
Speaker 2: get deported and lose my job and it would just
Speaker 2: mess everything up. And he was more comfortable with me
Speaker 2: staying at home doing these things, you know, drinking and
Speaker 2: smoking pot or whatever.
Speaker 1: You come back from Mexico, you finish high school, you
Speaker 1: go to college for like ten minutes, and you drop out.
Speaker 1: In the book you say that your father says, it's okay.
Speaker 1: I mean, on the surface, your father's an academic. Both
Speaker 1: your parents are college graduates. What do they say about
Speaker 1: their oldest daughter says no way.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, my dad was very patient and empathetic when
Speaker 2: it came to grades. When I was in high school,
Speaker 2: for instance, I didn't do well in math I did.
Speaker 2: I did well in languages. Not good with numbers, good
Speaker 2: with language, you know. And he was saying, well, that's okay.
Speaker 2: As long as I was good in certain things, as
Speaker 2: long as I was thriving in certain subjects, he was okay.
Speaker 2: He didn't expect me to be one hundred percent with everything,
Speaker 2: and he just he understood. He just got things, he understood.
Speaker 2: That's why one reason I loved it and looked up
Speaker 2: to him so much. This I'm not sure about. I'm
Speaker 2: not sure when you were talking about when I went
Speaker 2: to college for ten minutes.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it sounds like from one of the
Speaker 1: book that you went for like a semester and then
Speaker 1: you went dropped out, went to New Orleans.
Speaker 2: Something like that. Yeah. I went for about a year
Speaker 2: to the University of Arkansas, and then at mid semester,
Speaker 2: I went and visited my mother in New Orleans, and
Speaker 2: I was offered this job and a little little place
Speaker 2: called Andy's on Bourbon Street. And that was when I
Speaker 2: called my dad and I was supposed to go back
Speaker 2: to school in the fall. This would have been in
Speaker 2: the summer, but I wanted to stay in New Orleans
Speaker 2: and play music at this little place for tips instead
Speaker 2: of going back to school. And he said, okay, he
Speaker 2: just got it. He understood because he was an artist also,
Speaker 2: he was a poet.
Speaker 1: When did you have the inspiration that you would be
Speaker 1: a professional musician, that you wanted to be an artist?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there was the time when I wanted to
Speaker 2: be the feeling of I want to do this, and
Speaker 2: then there was I'm actually going to make this happen
Speaker 2: or this is actually going to happen. You know, those
Speaker 2: were two different times.
Speaker 1: Well, tell me about those two times.
Speaker 2: Well, the first time was when I was twelve or
Speaker 2: twelve and a half and I heard Highway sixty one
Speaker 2: were visited for the first time, which was also the
Speaker 2: first time I heard Bob Dylan, and it, you know,
Speaker 2: just rearranged my brain cells. I didn't understand all the
Speaker 2: lyrics at the time, but it didn't matter. You know.
Speaker 2: It had an effect on me in a big way,
Speaker 2: and I decided at that point that I wanted to
Speaker 2: be able to write songs like that and do what
Speaker 2: he was doing. And what I saw him doing was
Speaker 2: taking basically taking something like poetry and setting it to
Speaker 2: folk rock music. And I just the comment of those
Speaker 2: two things just completely blew my mind and I understood
Speaker 2: it on some level, even though it was only twelve,
Speaker 2: but I understood what he was doing artistically musically, and
Speaker 2: it really appealed to me.
Speaker 1: So that was the inspiration. When did you say this
Speaker 1: is a direction I'm going to go?
Speaker 2: That was the same time. That was the inspiration and
Speaker 2: the direction I wanted to go.
Speaker 1: So when you're in New Orleans playing for tips, what's
Speaker 1: going through your mind in terms of your career?
Speaker 2: Probably that you know, I was playing performing by myself,
Speaker 2: accompanying myself on guitar that maybe, you know, wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be great if I had a band like Bob Dylan
Speaker 2: had or something like that, you know, Or wouldn't it
Speaker 2: be great if people were listening instead of talking in
Speaker 2: the audience. And then over time, you know, that happened.
Speaker 2: I put a band together, and then you know, I
Speaker 2: remember the first time I performed somewhere when people actually
Speaker 2: knew who I was and listened.
Speaker 1: And when was that?
Speaker 2: Probably the eighties, sometime like maybe after that Reugh Trade
Speaker 2: album came out.
Speaker 1: So that was a long time where they weren't listening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: tell us about making the two Folk wse albums.
Speaker 2: Yeah, those were that was almost a well. I remember
Speaker 2: there was a friend of mine who had met in
Speaker 2: New Orleans by the name of Jeff Ampulsk, and he
Speaker 2: had recorded an album. He was a singer songwriter, you know,
Speaker 2: not known or anything. He was just getting started and
Speaker 2: he had made an album for Folkways, and he and
Speaker 2: I were talking on the phone one day. I was
Speaker 2: at my dad's house in Fayetteville and Jeff and I
Speaker 2: were on the phone and he said, you know, you
Speaker 2: could probably make a record for folk Ways. And I said, really,
Speaker 2: you think so? And he said, yeah, I just send
Speaker 2: him a cassette tape and I bet they'll like it
Speaker 2: and they'll make a record with you. And I said okay.
Speaker 2: So he gave me their information and I made a
Speaker 2: little cassette tape of songs and sent it to Moe
Speaker 2: Ash at folk Ways Records, and sure enough they sent
Speaker 2: me back a one page contract and a check for
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty dollars, and I managed to, with
Speaker 2: the help of some friends, managed to scrape together some
Speaker 2: studio time at Malaco Studios in Jackson, Mississippi. Because my
Speaker 2: dad had a close friend who had connects there. He
Speaker 2: helped make that happen. So I went down there and
Speaker 2: recorded my first album, which was called Rambling on my Mind.
Speaker 2: After that Bob d I mean after that Robert Johnson's song,
Speaker 2: and I went in one afternoon just with another guy
Speaker 2: named John Grimauda who is from Houston, Texas. He played
Speaker 2: really good blues guitar and he played he accompanied me
Speaker 2: on on the songs.
Speaker 1: So you have finished the tape, you sent it to
Speaker 1: folk Way's Records. If you went to your local record store,
Speaker 1: did they have it.
Speaker 2: Well, eventually they did. You know, if they carried records
Speaker 2: like that, yeah, they would have it. The independent record
Speaker 2: stores would have it usually.
Speaker 1: Well, did you feel any buzz from having made that record.
Speaker 2: Just locally? You know, maybe locally and regionally around you
Speaker 2: know where I was, where I would be playing live.
Speaker 2: Eventually I moved to Austin, Texas, and I lived in
Speaker 2: Austin and Houston for a number of years, and that's
Speaker 2: where I would have felt that little buzz, just on
Speaker 2: that level.
Speaker 1: So you go to New York. You have these two guys,
Speaker 1: they put up money for a demo. No one wants
Speaker 1: to make a record with you, and you know, do
Speaker 1: you ever think man, I'm gonna hang it up.
Speaker 2: It crossed my mind, but I didn't want to. I
Speaker 2: just I don't know. I guess I was, well, I
Speaker 2: see expression fool hardy and something fancy free and fool
Speaker 2: hardy or something, you know. I just I felt like
Speaker 2: it was going to happen at some point because I
Speaker 2: had all these people around me encouraging me a lot,
Speaker 2: and that kept me going.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you're working minimum wage jobs. Yeah, minimum wage jobs
Speaker 1: are not that fun.
Speaker 2: No, But you know, every other musician I knew was
Speaker 2: working those kind of jobs, and it just came with
Speaker 2: the you know, it's part of the package. That's just
Speaker 2: what you have to do.
Speaker 1: So you weren't saying I'd like to have a house
Speaker 1: a new car. You were saying, this is what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was probably thinking that in the
Speaker 2: back of my mind.
Speaker 1: And then tell us about moving to La.
Speaker 2: Well, I had some close friends who were real supportive
Speaker 2: of me and my music, and one of them was
Speaker 2: trying to become a manager in the music business. See,
Speaker 2: he actually ended up working with me for a little
Speaker 2: bit and he encouraged me to come out there. You know,
Speaker 2: I think I just went initially went out there to play.
Speaker 2: He helped set up a gig for me out there,
Speaker 2: But in the back of my mind, I think I
Speaker 2: was thinking I was probably gonna stay. I didn't know
Speaker 2: for sure, but I went out there and I actually
Speaker 2: liked it a lot. I like the people on that
Speaker 2: I like the weather. Of course, everybody says that it's true,
Speaker 2: but the music scene was really viable and exciting. I
Speaker 2: felt like there are a lot of great artists playing
Speaker 2: around the city at that time, like Dave Alvin and
Speaker 2: the Blasters, and you know, the local music scene was
Speaker 2: just fabulous at that time in Houston, and it was
Speaker 2: very eclectic. You know, there were these different kinds of
Speaker 2: music that were blending together, and bands like The Lonesome
Speaker 2: Strangers who played a hybrid of you know, a hybrid
Speaker 2: version of country and punk. They used to call it cowpunk.
Speaker 2: You know. It's kind of like country music sped up
Speaker 2: real fast, and I would open shows for those guys sometimes,
Speaker 2: and you know, Rosie Flores was getting going, you know,
Speaker 2: she was creating a pretty good buzz, and Dwight Yoakum
Speaker 2: was getting ready to hit really big at that time,
Speaker 2: and then there were all these other like on the
Speaker 2: fringe kind of rock bands like Grin on Red and
Speaker 2: Blood on the Saddle, and they were kind of pump
Speaker 2: based roots like roots of music mixed with punk kind
Speaker 2: of well punk Israeli roots music initially. But you know,
Speaker 2: so that was going on a lot back then, So
Speaker 2: there was an openness happening in that scene that it
Speaker 2: really appealed to me, and a lot of places to play.
Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, you said, you said, you
Speaker 1: mean lost. This is all happening in Los Angeles. But
Speaker 1: the late seventies early eighties, there's a ton of bands,
Speaker 1: all the acts you mentioned, and there's a thin layer
Speaker 1: that gets signed and then the others seemed to work
Speaker 1: for a while and then spread apart, but you don't
Speaker 1: get a deal, right, How depressing is yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because that hybrid
Speaker 2: thing that I was talking about also could have applied
Speaker 2: to me because I was met sing country with rock,
Speaker 2: you know, but or they said, actually I fell on
Speaker 2: the cracks between country and rock, and you know, they
Speaker 2: didn't know what to.
Speaker 1: Do with that, you know, And you mentioned this in
Speaker 1: the book that the record company people are full of
Speaker 1: shit and don't know what's going on. But did you
Speaker 1: ever sit at home and say, I know what they're
Speaker 1: looking for. I'm going to write a hit, and that'll
Speaker 1: get my foot in the door.
Speaker 2: You know, that's just it, Bob. I didn't know how
Speaker 2: to write a hit. I would love to write a
Speaker 2: hit song if I could figure out how to do it,
Speaker 2: you know. But no, I didn't think that because I
Speaker 2: was an died in the wool rebel. I think I
Speaker 2: was probably born a rebel.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's seventy years old. Are you still a rebel?
Speaker 2: Hell?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Or as they say, hell to the yell?
Speaker 1: How would that manifest itself at everyday life?
Speaker 2: Oh? God, you probably need to talk to people who
Speaker 2: live with me. I don't know. I've just you know,
Speaker 2: the record you have to remember like back then at least,
Speaker 2: and it's still that way, I guess to some degree.
Speaker 2: But you know, there was that feeling of them and us.
Speaker 2: You know, it's like we're the artists. You know, we're
Speaker 2: the creators, we're the magic makers. Those guys are the
Speaker 2: corporate business makers, and they don't know anything about creativity
Speaker 2: and art and music or anything, you know, record company people,
Speaker 2: you know, they're just it's there was this wall between
Speaker 2: the artists and the record company guys. Which isn't to
Speaker 2: say that there weren't some really good people in the
Speaker 2: record company business. There were some great ones, and still
Speaker 2: are some good ones, but far and few between. You know,
Speaker 2: most of them were thinking about the dollar, not how
Speaker 2: creative something or how good something is creatively.
Speaker 1: You know, from my perch at this late date, the
Speaker 1: artists changed. Where the rebel spirit that you embody and
Speaker 1: was in Texas for a few decades, everybody moved to
Speaker 1: the center. It's almost like politics. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: the mainstream Democrat was let me say, like Nixon would
Speaker 1: be a Democrat today, which is hard to believe.
Speaker 2: God, that's a scary thought.
Speaker 1: All the artists, you know, Yeah, they don't want to
Speaker 1: be too edgy, you know, or else there are people
Speaker 1: with no talent or complaining and that's all thing unto itself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you have to have if you're going to complain,
Speaker 2: you have to have something to bring to the table.
Speaker 2: That's the name of that game. You have to have
Speaker 2: something they want before you can make demands. I figured
Speaker 2: that out out early on.
Speaker 1: You know, So you end up making a record for
Speaker 1: rough Trade. Yeah, Now, granted it was a different era
Speaker 1: back then. Today everything's been blown apart. But everybody who
Speaker 1: knew what Rough Trade was, which was basically an English company,
Speaker 1: would say, if you're playing roots to find music, this
Speaker 1: could be the worst label to ever make a deal with.
Speaker 2: Well you might think that, but they were so much
Speaker 2: more creative based and open minded than any of the
Speaker 2: other labels who were approaching me. You know, most of
Speaker 2: a lot of the labels were who passed on me
Speaker 2: were major labels, but even the really small other labels
Speaker 2: passed on me, like Rounder Records and Rhino Records, which
Speaker 2: was signing people at the time, sugar Hill Records, you know,
Speaker 2: all those small folky, kind of rootsy labels. Except for
Speaker 2: Rough Trade. They were the only ones who basically approached
Speaker 2: me and said, we like your voice, we like your songs,
Speaker 2: let's make a record. They'd never seen me perform live before,
Speaker 2: unlike Rounder Records. You came to see me play at
Speaker 2: this dive bar in La and Hollywood on the fourth
Speaker 2: of July or something, and I had a bunch of
Speaker 2: the Longwriders guys sitting in with me. You know, it's
Speaker 2: a drunken, crazy night fourth of July, and they came
Speaker 2: to see me play, and you know, afterwards I talked
Speaker 2: to him and they said, well, we just don't thinking
Speaker 2: ready to go on the road yet, you know, because
Speaker 2: my stage presence with the band wasn't polished enough. Basically
Speaker 2: it's rock and roll, man, Come on, god, what happened
Speaker 2: to that? Like you were saying, you know, would that
Speaker 2: have happened back in the day in the sixties?
Speaker 1: You know, when well the sixties, the executives woke up
Speaker 1: and said, we have no fucking idea, and they hired
Speaker 1: young people the so called my air Quotes label hippie
Speaker 1: and then then there became so much money in the seventies.
Speaker 1: And then by time this a little bit later, by
Speaker 1: time you hit the Tommy Mottola era at Sony, you know,
Speaker 1: the label head start wearing suits and they think they're
Speaker 1: the stars.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So, but the Rough Rough Trade album comes out. It
Speaker 1: is the most successful American act Rough Trade ever has
Speaker 1: And it's not like it explodes, but it becomes a
Speaker 1: real cult item, and as years go by, it gets
Speaker 1: gains even more and more respect. What was it like
Speaker 1: being the artist in that world?
Speaker 2: It was awesome. It was great. I mean, the reviews
Speaker 2: were coming in the critics loved it. I was getting
Speaker 2: all this publicity and exposure, you know, for the first time.
Speaker 2: And ANDTRA I mean they were just a great little label.
Speaker 2: You know. They were independent though, and they didn't have
Speaker 2: the of course, the financial you know, they just didn't
Speaker 2: have the funds that are bigger label would have, so
Speaker 2: certain things they weren't able to do as well, like
Speaker 2: they didn't have as big of a staff, and they
Speaker 2: had trouble getting the albums shipped to record stores. You know,
Speaker 2: the record stores wouldn't order enough albums, you know, they
Speaker 2: just order a few, whereas if you're on Sony Records
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, the record stores order
Speaker 2: an enormous amount because you know, you're on a big
Speaker 2: label and there's more guarantee they think that it's going
Speaker 2: to sell in the store. You know. So there was
Speaker 2: there were a few drawbacks like that, but just in
Speaker 2: terms of the heart and spirit of the label, Rough
Speaker 2: Trade was just you know, miles ahead of any of
Speaker 2: those other labels at the time. They sent me to
Speaker 2: Europe on tour. I mean, they really invested quite a
Speaker 2: bit in me.
Speaker 1: Were you making any money or you were famous and broke.
Speaker 2: No famous and broke, so.
Speaker 1: You sign up, sign, you make a deal with Bob
Speaker 1: Booziak at RCA, he gets squeezed out, then he goes
Speaker 1: to Chameleon Pritzker's label. And how did you feel about
Speaker 1: that album coming out?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I loved Bobbyziak. He was one
Speaker 2: of the good guys, you know, even though he was
Speaker 2: running a big major label RCAA, but he had the
Speaker 2: mentality more of an independent record guy, you know, So
Speaker 2: I felt really good about him, which is basically the
Speaker 2: only He's the only reason I ever went to RCA
Speaker 2: that had real mixed feelings about it, because I was
Speaker 2: on Rough Trade and RCA, you know, jumped in and
Speaker 2: wanted to sign me. And you know, I didn't want
Speaker 2: to abandon Rough Trade because they had opened the door
Speaker 2: for me when nobody else would. So when that became
Speaker 2: a whole other story. When I went with RCAA. You
Speaker 2: may have heard the story about the A and R guy.
Speaker 2: He was appointed to me and when we were we
Speaker 2: were rehearsing with my band at the time to get
Speaker 2: ready to go in the studio and start the I
Speaker 2: think it was the Sweet Old World album would have
Speaker 2: been the next one, yeah, Yeah, and the A and
Speaker 2: R guy. His name is sorry, I'm gonna say his name,
Speaker 2: Bob booziakran the label. He was in the no I'm sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 2: Bennett Kaufman was my He was that he had been
Speaker 2: appointed the head of A and R for the entire
Speaker 2: West coast of the United States, you know. And we're
Speaker 2: in this in rehearsal studio going over the songs with
Speaker 2: the band and everything, and we started talking about producers
Speaker 2: and I mentioned Bob Johnson, at which point he asked,
Speaker 2: who's Bob Johnson? Well, right there, you know, we've got
Speaker 2: a problem. Who's Bob Johnson? And I said, well, you know,
Speaker 2: he produced Blonde on Blonde And he goes, and I
Speaker 2: swear that I'm serious as a heart attack. He says, oh,
Speaker 2: Blonde don Blonde? Is that a band? And I feel
Speaker 2: bad when I tell this story in a way because
Speaker 2: I feel like I just I'm you know, joking at
Speaker 2: his expense.
Speaker 1: But it's very disheartening when they own you.
Speaker 2: It's very disheartening. And I feel stuck and trapped, and
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Okay, I've got to work with this guy now,
Speaker 2: you know. And it was just I was shocked. We
Speaker 2: were all shocked. The guys in the band and I
Speaker 2: just all looked at each other and rolled our eyes, like,
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy's credibility went out the window. You know,
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be able to communicate with or
Speaker 2: connect with him.
Speaker 1: So ultimately, you make a deal with Rick Rubin. What's
Speaker 1: your take on Rick Rubin?
Speaker 2: I was a little intimidated by him at the beginning.
Speaker 2: You know, he was a you know, rather large physical presence,
Speaker 2: really long wavy hair and a big, long beard. But
Speaker 2: he had his sweet nature, very good natured, and I
Speaker 2: could tell that he respected what I was doing musically.
Speaker 2: And you know, who knows what would have happened had
Speaker 2: he actually become the producer of my next album. Look
Speaker 2: what he did for the Beastie Boys. He invited me
Speaker 2: over to his house into the Hollywood Hills, which was
Speaker 2: massively impressive along just that alone his home there, and
Speaker 2: we sat around in his living room with the stereo
Speaker 2: system and all these records piled up in CDs, and
Speaker 2: he said, I have an album I want to play you,
Speaker 2: and it was PJ. Harvey's. It might have been her
Speaker 2: first album, I'm not sure. It was the one that
Speaker 2: The Edge produced. And he's you know, he's this is
Speaker 2: what I have in mind for you kind of that's
Speaker 2: what he told me. I think he got me basically,
Speaker 2: but I think he also saw more possibilities than had
Speaker 2: been explored. Maybe.
Speaker 1: Okay, even when he does produce you, he's a pretty
Speaker 1: hands off guy. You go into the studio, you send
Speaker 1: him cassettes. What did he say?
Speaker 2: He said, you know, he liked the direction was going in,
Speaker 2: but he wanted to it needed at a certain point.
Speaker 2: What started to show up was when we were mixing,
Speaker 2: you know, that's when he wanted to add keyboards or
Speaker 2: at one point we recorded Drunken Angel, he wanted to
Speaker 2: take one of the verses out because it was too long.
Speaker 2: Well that was probably because he never explained, you know,
Speaker 2: why is it too long? It was probably too long
Speaker 2: for the radio for airplay, you know, because they had
Speaker 2: this rule about it can't be longer than whatever it is,
Speaker 2: you know, two and a half minutes or something. And
Speaker 2: he wanted me to remove one of the verses, and
Speaker 2: I said, no. See that's the kind of thing. That's
Speaker 2: where the rebel thing comes in. But it's not really
Speaker 2: it'sn't as much a rebel thing as it is an
Speaker 2: artistic decision. I'm not going to take a verse out
Speaker 2: of his song because it needs to be in there.
Speaker 2: It's part of the story, you know. I don't care
Speaker 2: if it fits on the radio. Fuck the radio, you know.
Speaker 2: I mean, so that was me. So he's saying take
Speaker 2: a verse out. I say no, and you know, he
Speaker 2: said okay. At least at least I can give him
Speaker 2: that he didn't force me or anything.
Speaker 1: Has anybody ever told you what to do when they
Speaker 1: were right?
Speaker 2: That's a good question too. You're just full of them today,
Speaker 2: Bob God, I wish I could remember. Yeah, I've guessed.
Speaker 2: Maybe the good example, as close as example as I
Speaker 2: can get to that would be like maybe I wanted
Speaker 2: to do a vocal over on a song and was told,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't need to do this over again.
Speaker 2: It's fine, it's great, you're singing your ass off, and
Speaker 2: it was, you know, and then I would try to
Speaker 2: sing it over, you know, But then I realized, yeah,
Speaker 2: they're right, it's done. I don't need to try to
Speaker 2: improve it, you know. But the point WHI is and
Speaker 2: was though that I might maybe I just want to
Speaker 2: try to do it again just for my own satisfaction,
Speaker 2: and that would be the difference between people. When I
Speaker 2: was working at the studio, like when I worked with
Speaker 2: Charlie Sexton on the Essence album. We were working on
Speaker 2: my song Blue and I felt like I could have
Speaker 2: maybe got I could maybe get a better vocal. So
Speaker 2: I wanted to try to sing it again and he said, well,
Speaker 2: I don't think you need to, but if you want
Speaker 2: to go ahead. That was what I wanted someone to say,
Speaker 2: not no, you know, just whatever makes you feel comfortable.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's one of the shifts. You know,
Speaker 1: after the sixties and the seventies, the record contracts where
Speaker 1: we deliver the album. You have to put it out.
Speaker 1: Whatever it is. Doesn't mean you have to promote it,
Speaker 1: but you have to put it out. Whereas today everybody
Speaker 1: at the label thinks they're an expert, when if you're
Speaker 1: a true artist, you know, it's a different mentality. So
Speaker 1: you ultimately put out car wheels on a gravel road,
Speaker 1: and that really cements your place in the firmament. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the record is done. Did you know that was going
Speaker 1: to happen?
Speaker 2: No? I did not know because it was so chaotic
Speaker 2: getting the record. None that you know. I was insecure.
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure about this. I wasn't sure about that.
Speaker 2: I was questioning everything. I just hadn't had a whole
Speaker 2: lot of experience in the studio making records. This is
Speaker 2: what you have to remember, you know, So you know,
Speaker 2: I was still to me, it was just still this
Speaker 2: amazing process and scary process kind of because whatever goes
Speaker 2: down there is permanent, that's it, you know. And however,
Speaker 2: many thousands of people are going to hear this, and
Speaker 2: what if I make a mistake and I can't fix
Speaker 2: it or you know, all these kinds of thoughts are
Speaker 2: running through my head. That's probably my part of my
Speaker 2: OCD thing carried over into the studio.
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I was asking earlier, you know, whether
Speaker 1: you could be satisfied or need to redo it all.
Speaker 1: That's where I was going.
Speaker 2: Well, I would have a hard time when it came
Speaker 2: to my vocal A lot of times, you know, I
Speaker 2: would think, oh that I had a flat note there.
Speaker 2: I've got to fix it. You know, the producer or
Speaker 2: engineer whoever would be saying, no, Lew, it's not flat.
Speaker 2: It's fine. You just think it's flat. I could I
Speaker 2: understand why you might think it's flat, but I remember
Speaker 2: my engineer, Dusty Weakeman, when we're working on car wals.
Speaker 2: At one point he said with Sunday. He says, you
Speaker 2: know the Native American Indians when they would weave a blanket,
Speaker 2: they would leave a mistake in the blanket on purpose,
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't be perfect, you know. And he used
Speaker 2: that as an analogy to try to get me to
Speaker 2: understand that the idea of imperfection.
Speaker 1: Well, there are two things there. I think the imperfections
Speaker 1: make the records human. And I could talk a number
Speaker 1: of records the imperfections of what make them great. However,
Speaker 1: that is classic OCD and is a distorted thought when
Speaker 1: something is okay but you can't settle down with it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I had that problem in the studio.
Speaker 1: So car Wheels comes out. What's your experience?
Speaker 2: Well, there were a couple of things on't it. I
Speaker 2: didn't like that. I just spread it over, would listen
Speaker 2: to and every time I'd just be oh, I hate that.
Speaker 2: Every time it would go by, and I didn't think
Speaker 2: it sounded good. And then over time, of course it
Speaker 2: didn't bother me. But I was completely in awe and
Speaker 2: shocked when I won that Grammy for Contemporary Best Contemporary
Speaker 2: Folk Album. I mean, I was completely I was not
Speaker 2: expecting that at all. That blew me out of the water.
Speaker 1: Okay. I was talking to my psychiatrist earlier today and
Speaker 1: he's older than I am, not a hip guy, and
Speaker 1: I say, yeah, well today I'm doing this podcast with
Speaker 1: Louse send to Williams goes, Oh, he knew who you were.
Speaker 1: So that showed that you permeate the culture. Did you?
Speaker 1: Did you? Did you start to feel that?
Speaker 2: Over time? I started realizing that, you know, something's happening here.
Speaker 2: You know, people are hearing this record. My name's getting around.
Speaker 2: You know, the critics loved it. I guess I would
Speaker 2: have been called the critics darling. Yeah, you know, so
Speaker 2: I was lucky in that regard.
Speaker 1: Okay, you have the success, you win this Grammy. How
Speaker 1: hard is it to write songs and go to the
Speaker 1: studio next.
Speaker 2: Ooh it was hard Because now I'm thinking about it
Speaker 2: too much. My mind is running away with me, and
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Okay, they loved Carwell's for these reasons. But
Speaker 2: these particular songs that are all narrative, are the songs
Speaker 2: that were getting the most attention were narrative songs. Those
Speaker 2: kinds of songs take a lot of work, or these
Speaker 2: particular ones took a lot of work. Songs like Drunken Angel,
Speaker 2: late Charles Pintiola, you know, about specific people with really
Speaker 2: interesting stories behind them, and those are the kind of
Speaker 2: songs I can just whip up, you know. And a
Speaker 2: lot of the songs in Rough Trade were written during
Speaker 2: that down time that I had in silver Lake after
Speaker 2: I'd gotten a development deal with Sony Records, and I
Speaker 2: had time to sit in my apartment silver Lake and
Speaker 2: write songs every day, you know, because I had this
Speaker 2: development deal they've given me, which meant, you know, I
Speaker 2: got to check every month from them. You know, they
Speaker 2: give you the funds to live on for six months
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, and so you can buy groceries
Speaker 2: and pay your rent, and you know, to spend that
Speaker 2: time writing working on songs, and then you do a
Speaker 2: demo tape at the end of that period, which I
Speaker 2: did for them, and you know, then they decide if
Speaker 2: they're going to give you an actual recording deal or
Speaker 2: not based on the demo tape that you do when
Speaker 2: you have that after you get the development deal. I
Speaker 2: had done that for Sony Records. This guy Ron Oberman
Speaker 2: was the A and R guy who pulled me in there,
Speaker 2: and he was real nice. He was a cool guy.
Speaker 2: But then they passed on me basically after I did
Speaker 2: the demo tape. This is when that country in Rock
Speaker 2: division thing started, because I did that demo tape for
Speaker 2: Sony in LA, and Sony in LA said it was
Speaker 2: too country for rock, so they sent it to Sony
Speaker 2: in Nashville, who said it was too rock for country.
Speaker 1: In any event, you didn't get a deal. So how
Speaker 1: did you feel?
Speaker 2: Really disappointed? Because when I first got the development deal,
Speaker 2: I thought, well, this is a done deal. You know,
Speaker 2: they're gonna sign me. I'm going to make a record
Speaker 2: for Sony Records. I'm not going to have to I'm
Speaker 2: going to be able to quit my day jobs, and
Speaker 2: this is gonna be great. And I was on Cloud
Speaker 2: nine and you know, I did the demo tape. Fantastic
Speaker 2: musicians on that demo tape. Some of the guys from
Speaker 2: NRBQ played on it. David Mansfield, the keyboard player from NRBQ,
Speaker 2: was on it, and some other really good people, and
Speaker 2: you know, I just thought there was this whirlwind of
Speaker 2: activity and it felt real positive, and you know then
Speaker 2: when they decided no, because you know, it's that classic
Speaker 2: thing where Ron Oberman was. He wanted to do it,
Speaker 2: but then he had to convince the rest of the label.
Speaker 2: You know, that's where the business, that's where the numbers
Speaker 2: guys come in. You know, well, what is this. We're
Speaker 2: not sure how to market it? You know, then you
Speaker 2: become a product like that. They're trying to market and
Speaker 2: they have these meetings and the men in suits come
Speaker 2: and they start talking numbers. And that's when I decided no.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump forward. We got into this story because
Speaker 1: you're saying songs like Lake Charles, you can't write in
Speaker 1: a day, but you have to make another album.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I managed to come up with the songs.
Speaker 2: But even Sweet O'd World. I remember we went in
Speaker 2: and we cut a bunch of stuff, and I'm you know,
Speaker 2: I was comparing everything to car Wheels already, and I
Speaker 2: was terrified. You know, I said, I felt stuck because
Speaker 2: I felt like, whatever album I make after car Wheels,
Speaker 2: people are gonna compare it to car wheels. It's they're
Speaker 2: either gonna say it sounds the same as car wheels,
Speaker 2: or they're gonna say it's not as good as Car Wheels.
Speaker 2: So I felt like I couldn't win for losing, and
Speaker 2: we cut some stuff for Sweet O'.
Speaker 1: World and I think we're at Essence now.
Speaker 2: Okay, wait, I'm sorry now the it wasn't Sweet Old
Speaker 2: World right after Carl Willers.
Speaker 1: Sweet Ol'd World was before Car Wheels. Then came Essence.
Speaker 1: Sweet Old World was after the Rough Trade record.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking that and that was hard.
Speaker 1: To Okay, so you had a hard time following up
Speaker 1: the Rough Trade record? Yeah, tell me about the hard
Speaker 1: time following up Car Wheels.
Speaker 2: Well, it was, you know, similar issue where because Car
Speaker 2: Wills was so successful, I felt like it was going
Speaker 2: to everything was going to be compared to it, so
Speaker 2: the songs had to be as good or better on
Speaker 2: the next record.
Speaker 1: You was talking your book about changing your writing style.
Speaker 2: Well, I started. I was working on songs for Essence,
Speaker 2: and I was coming up with these songs that weren't
Speaker 2: really lashed out lyrically that much, but the music was
Speaker 2: really cool, and I thought, you know, is this going
Speaker 2: to be okay to do? Can I get away with this?
Speaker 2: Because before that my songs were you know, like I said,
Speaker 2: a lot of narrative lyrics and you know, it's paying
Speaker 2: a lot of attention to the lyrics. And I was
Speaker 2: still doing that. But what really helped me was at
Speaker 2: the time Bob Dylan's album Time out of Mind had
Speaker 2: come out, that Rick Rubin had done, and I listened
Speaker 2: to it and loved it, and I felt like, this
Speaker 2: is so musical. It's such a musical album, you know,
Speaker 2: it's different than most of his other records. And in fact,
Speaker 2: the Nashville Paper gave it a bad review because they
Speaker 2: said the lyrics weren't up to Bob Dylan quality, you know.
Speaker 2: But the way I felt about it was that he
Speaker 2: was stretching out a little bit and letting the music talk.
Speaker 2: You know, I'd always want. I loved the stuff that
Speaker 2: I loved that I was listening to was talking heads.
Speaker 2: I loved them because great lyrics, but the music, you know,
Speaker 2: which supported the lyrics. And I mean, I love good
Speaker 2: I love rock music, you know, I love beats, I
Speaker 2: love hip hop. One of my favorite artists is this
Speaker 2: guy Atmosphere out of Minneapolis, who I just absolutely love.
Speaker 2: He's a great writer, he's a great lyricist, and his
Speaker 2: music is just infectious, you know. It's a similar thing
Speaker 2: to what Bob Dylan was doing when he first won
Speaker 2: an electric you know, I love that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: I've always been drawn to it. I love Thievery Corporation
Speaker 2: because they do that, you know, Marching the Hate Machines
Speaker 2: into the Sun, the song they co wrote with Wayne
Speaker 2: Korn from Flaming Lips. So I love that combination of
Speaker 2: the you know, really interesting, well written lyrics, but infectious
Speaker 2: you know, hip hoppy rock music behind it.
Speaker 1: Okay for someone who got a lite start, had all
Speaker 1: sorts of issues going from label to label. In the
Speaker 1: last twenty years, you put on more records than anybody
Speaker 1: of your stature, so you just hit a groove. What
Speaker 1: accounts for that?
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I signed ended up signing with Lost Highway,
Speaker 2: and you know, so when you signed with a label,
Speaker 2: you have a contract. You have to give them so
Speaker 2: many a certain amount of recordings, you know, that year
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. So that was part of it,
Speaker 2: just the and when I was on Lost Highway, I
Speaker 2: felt like I'd finally found my family to a large extent,
Speaker 2: you know, just absolutely adored Rick or not Rick Luke
Speaker 2: Lewis just loved working with him, you know, he put
Speaker 2: his money where his mouth was and walk the walk
Speaker 2: and talk the talk, and you know, he was a
Speaker 2: musical Ever.
Speaker 1: Well, he ultimately, you know, gets pushed aside. The label
Speaker 1: closes and you continue to make records independently distributed by
Speaker 1: thirty tigers, so you know it's yeah, you might have ant,
Speaker 1: but now you have no contract, you're still making the records.
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of that I have to owe to
Speaker 2: my husband, manager Tom, who is always coming up with ideas.
Speaker 2: He worked at record labels for a number of years.
Speaker 2: He used to work for Best Buy, and so he
Speaker 2: has that. He's that capability of he's got the business
Speaker 2: sense and the creative sense combined. So he's the one.
Speaker 2: Like one of the things I did were those jukebox
Speaker 2: you know, the jukebox recordings, an idea that Tom came
Speaker 2: up with. Basically, we're, you know, just in between record albums,
Speaker 2: and I was talking about sons I loved by other people,
Speaker 2: and he said, well, why don't we go in and
Speaker 2: record some of those? So we would. He would say,
Speaker 2: you know, pick your favorite Bob del songs, whoever it
Speaker 2: might be, Tom Petty, and we go in. We went
Speaker 2: in and worked him up with the band and recorded
Speaker 2: on them and we ended up getting a couple of
Speaker 2: filmmaker guys photographers to come in and document it in
Speaker 2: the studio and you know, people saw it and heard
Speaker 2: it and loved it. And then Tom got the idea
Speaker 2: to you know, put it on make it available online.
Speaker 2: They could downstream it or whatever it's called, you know,
Speaker 2: and we jumped on that wagon, you know, that bandwagon,
Speaker 2: the social media thing with it, and you know, it
Speaker 2: took off and you know, so that was an idea
Speaker 2: that Tom had come up with to fill the gap
Speaker 2: in between records.
Speaker 1: Well does he ever come up with an idea and
Speaker 1: you say, no, not going to do that?
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, you know, then we talk about it and.
Speaker 1: So when in this equation do you start making any money?
Speaker 2: Huh that's a good question too. Uh. I remember telling
Speaker 2: Tom at one point recently, like when am I going
Speaker 2: to start seeing the results of the fruits of my labor?
Speaker 2: You know, like you hear about you know, all these
Speaker 2: rock bands who get famous and they have all these
Speaker 2: cars and multiple houses and all this stuff, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's not like that because you know, you have to
Speaker 2: pay taxes first of all, which is true for every American.
Speaker 2: But the more money you make, the more taxes you
Speaker 2: have to pay. So I mean you still have to
Speaker 2: watch your spending and all of that. It's just on
Speaker 2: a different level. I guess.
Speaker 1: Well, do you ever go I'm wear and say too expensive,
Speaker 1: not going to pay?
Speaker 2: Tom will say that sometimes, but usually once if we
Speaker 2: go to the trouble you mean, like a nice restaurant
Speaker 2: or something.
Speaker 1: So that could be a good example.
Speaker 2: Yoh, yeah, we won't go. If he thinks it's going
Speaker 2: to be too expensive, then we just go somewhere else,
Speaker 2: you know. And I would give him a hard time anyway,
Speaker 2: if he would know better than to say that.
Speaker 1: And do you have any personal extravagance something you do
Speaker 1: or something you own or somewhere you go?
Speaker 2: Hmmm, probably like what you were talking about before. I
Speaker 2: like to shop on line. I love buying. I probably
Speaker 2: shouldn't go into office supply stores. I love buying. I
Speaker 2: go crazy when I see blank, fresh new notebooks and
Speaker 2: pads of paper and pens. I just want to buy
Speaker 2: them all, you know.
Speaker 1: So let's go sideways for a minute here. You are
Speaker 1: a woman in a male dominated business. What's that been like?
Speaker 2: It sucks? Basically, I mean you know, sometimes I have
Speaker 2: to remind myself how many that there aren't women? You know,
Speaker 2: we don't. The majority of engineers are men, majority of
Speaker 2: producers are men. Men run all the record labels. I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have a label run by a woman.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's that majority of musicians are men.
Speaker 2: You know, I love seeing a woman playing drums. I
Speaker 2: love seeing a woman playing an instrument generally reserved for men.
Speaker 2: There's something really sexy and cool about that, you know,
Speaker 2: a woman playing bass or drums.
Speaker 1: And how any me too moments?
Speaker 2: Huh?
Speaker 1: Any sexual harassments.
Speaker 2: I haven't had anything like that, thank god, Just you know,
Speaker 2: comments like when I was first starting out, guys would
Speaker 2: say stuff like, you're pretty good for a girl, you know,
Speaker 2: or worse yet, they would say, you're pretty good for chick.
Speaker 2: I hated that word back then because that was effeminist.
Speaker 2: I like to think of myself as a feminist, so
Speaker 2: you know, that was not cool back in the day
Speaker 2: to call women chicks.
Speaker 1: Although I will say I have two sisters. Starting somewhere
Speaker 1: in the eighties or nineties, they started to use the
Speaker 1: word chick. Yeah, it's almost like black people using the
Speaker 1: N word.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's a funny thing because I come
Speaker 1: from a female dominated family. You can get caught up
Speaker 1: in a conversation and saying jokingly, and there are certain
Speaker 1: people saying, say, oh, you can't say that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. Yeah, we can call each other chick
Speaker 2: and bitch and whatever else we want to call each other.
Speaker 2: You know, I know what you mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how about in business, Like you go for
Speaker 1: a meeting and they you feel if you were a
Speaker 1: guy in a meeting or in a studio, it would
Speaker 1: go down differently.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I just my head just doesn't go
Speaker 2: in that direction. I don't think in those terms of
Speaker 2: like you know, all men do this or all women
Speaker 2: are like this. So, you know, I just think I
Speaker 2: would think more in terms of the actual person, Like
Speaker 2: if so and so was in here right now, like
Speaker 2: Steve Earle, who is just like you know, when he
Speaker 2: says something, that's it. You know, he's just got one
Speaker 2: of those personalities, you know, And I'm just not like that.
Speaker 2: I'm more kind of you know, shy, or I kind
Speaker 2: of retreat back, you know, like it's harder for me
Speaker 2: to be aggressive or assertive as opposed to like so
Speaker 2: if I was in the studio. I might say I
Speaker 2: wish Steve was in here with me right now because
Speaker 2: he could explain what I mean to them, and part
Speaker 2: of it would be just trying to describe and explain
Speaker 2: what I wanted to the sound I wanted to get
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, to the engineer and
Speaker 2: the producer like that would be hard sometimes.
Speaker 1: So tell us about the stroke.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a surprise and a shock if there
Speaker 2: ever was one. I was. It was a normal, regular day.
Speaker 2: I was in the bathroom getting ready to take a
Speaker 2: shower at our house in Nashville, and I just felt
Speaker 2: really exhausted all of a sudden, like to the point
Speaker 2: where all I want to do is lay down. I
Speaker 2: didn't care where I was. I just wanted to and
Speaker 2: it was this overwhelming need to lay down, and I
Speaker 2: just felt kind of weak. My legs just felt real
Speaker 2: weak underneath me, and I remember I didn't fall down.
Speaker 2: I saw some towels and I grabbed them and laid
Speaker 2: down on the floor in the bathroom for a minute.
Speaker 2: I just thought, I'm just gonna lay down for a
Speaker 2: minute before I get in the shower, because I don't
Speaker 2: want to fall down to the shower, so I just
Speaker 2: laid down on the floor and then Tom, my husband, Tom,
Speaker 2: at some point saw me in there and he figured
Speaker 2: something was He didn't know if I'd fallen or what
Speaker 2: had happened, but he knew something was off. So he
Speaker 2: ended up on the phone with our doctor, our primary
Speaker 2: care physician in Nashville, described what was going under her.
Speaker 2: She told her to call an ambulance and they came,
Speaker 2: and you know, we didn't know it was a stroke
Speaker 2: right away until I got to the hospital, and then
Speaker 2: they said that that was what had happened. I was
Speaker 2: in the hospital for a couple of weeks, and then
Speaker 2: they at a certain point I started doing rehab in
Speaker 2: the hospital because they had a rehab division section there
Speaker 2: with physical therapists, so they got me into that very quickly,
Speaker 2: which I think really helped made a big difference. So
Speaker 2: I did some rehab in the hospital, and then I
Speaker 2: came home and then I had caregivers come to the
Speaker 2: house and helped me, and I had physical theorists come
Speaker 2: to the house and worked with them. So I was
Speaker 2: doing a lot of outpatient physical therapy and starting to
Speaker 2: get a little at least be able to walk across
Speaker 2: the room without falling down because I couldn't walk it first,
Speaker 2: and then I rollized I couldn't play guitar, which has
Speaker 2: been my main big obstacle. So that's what I'm working
Speaker 2: on now, is trying to get back to that.
Speaker 1: So you had some level of paralysis. Where are you
Speaker 1: at now physically?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if it was paralysis, you mean
Speaker 2: not being able to walk.
Speaker 1: Well, whatever it is, you know better than I do.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You know what ended up? You have the stroke. Let's
Speaker 1: start from the beginning, purely out of the blue or
Speaker 1: was this something genetic and they say it was going
Speaker 1: to happen?
Speaker 2: No, it was out of the blue, you know.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what were the effects of the stroke?
Speaker 2: Okay? The stroke? Basically, you know, I didn't even know
Speaker 2: what a stroke was. But it's when you have a
Speaker 2: blood thought on one side of your brain, and you know,
Speaker 2: basically your brain is confused. So that means your body
Speaker 2: is confused because your brain tells your body what to do.
Speaker 2: So you have to retrain your brain. Basically, you know,
Speaker 2: your brain tells your legs what to do when you walk.
Speaker 2: You know, you don't think about that consciously because you're
Speaker 2: so used to walking, you just you don't think about it.
Speaker 2: But you know, when you after you have a stroke,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you have to think about what
Speaker 2: you're doing all the time. And it also what's interesting
Speaker 2: is like my blood clot was on the right side
Speaker 2: of my brain, so the whole, entire less side of
Speaker 2: my body was affected. And you know, you just have
Speaker 2: to relearn everything. I had to learn how to walk again,
Speaker 2: which I'm still working on. I still don't walk like
Speaker 2: I used to, you know.
Speaker 1: So if we take a snapshot today, what's your state today.
Speaker 2: I think I'm doing really well. People who've known me
Speaker 2: since the beginning can see the progress. I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: lifting weights in the studio with the trainers, so you know,
Speaker 2: because I just refuse to. I don't want to get
Speaker 2: out of shape and weak and all that. I was
Speaker 2: in a wheelchair for part of that time, and we
Speaker 2: still do that. Like if we have to go to
Speaker 2: the airport to catch a flight, they'll have a wheelchair
Speaker 2: there to roll me through the airport because it's it's
Speaker 2: too hard for me to walk through and it takes
Speaker 2: too long.
Speaker 1: And what's the status of playing guitar.
Speaker 2: Right now? I'm not playing, so I've been performing without guitar,
Speaker 2: was just my band backing me up. But the hardest
Speaker 2: part is when I go in the studio to record,
Speaker 2: because that's how I started. At a certain point, I
Speaker 2: realize the best way for me to record with the
Speaker 2: band was for them to follow me, you know, for
Speaker 2: me to play the guitar, and they get the vibe
Speaker 2: and the tempo and everything for me. And since I
Speaker 2: can't play, I have to rely on someone else to
Speaker 2: play rhythm, and that makes it a lot more difficult
Speaker 2: to record songs because nobody's gonna play like I do,
Speaker 2: you know. So that's the best way for me to
Speaker 2: record is for me to play. In the very beginning,
Speaker 2: somebody else would grab the guitar and sit and play.
Speaker 2: I never would even play. And then at some point
Speaker 2: someone in the studio, it might have been Steve Girls
Speaker 2: suggested and said, Lou, you need to play guitar and
Speaker 2: sing the song and then let everybody else follow you.
Speaker 2: And that proved to be the best way for me
Speaker 2: to record my stuff.
Speaker 1: And do you anticipate being able to play the guitar again?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I have to say yes, because I
Speaker 2: just refuse to give up.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're the same age, and hitting sixty was rough.
Speaker 1: Hitting seventy was rough in a different way. You've accomplished
Speaker 1: all this. You have all these albums, you have all
Speaker 1: this acclaim. Even if you did nothing again, you have
Speaker 1: a good legacy. But what do you want to accomplish
Speaker 1: other than the physical things which we've just changed. What
Speaker 1: do you want and what do you need for the
Speaker 1: time that's left.
Speaker 2: I would just say just keep writing songs and keep
Speaker 2: getting better. I feel like I can still there's always
Speaker 2: room to improve, you.
Speaker 1: Know, Okay, when I turn sixty. It's like you know
Speaker 1: the trick. You see advertising and you go if I
Speaker 1: you know, if this is good, I'll hear about it.
Speaker 1: Whereas you're a kid, you see something advertised with cartoons,
Speaker 1: you go, I want that. Then seventy he realized, well
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be here forever, and your perspective changes.
Speaker 1: In addition, we live in this era. You know, you
Speaker 1: and me grew up in the area. It turned on
Speaker 1: the radio, everybody knew those songs. Now there's almost no
Speaker 1: regular frame of reference. So do you just put your
Speaker 1: head down and say this is what I'm doing, or
Speaker 1: does it affect you how things have changed both because
Speaker 1: of age and the landscape.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it affects me just like it affects you and
Speaker 2: everybody else, especially people our age, you know, and it
Speaker 2: buns me out a lot of times. You're talking about
Speaker 2: like what you you mean, what you were talking about
Speaker 2: before about there aren't any rebels left and that sort
Speaker 2: of thing. Oh yeah, Yeah, it definitely affects me. But
Speaker 2: I see some though still, you know, there are you know,
Speaker 2: I keep on top of what's going on, and I listen.
Speaker 2: I love to listen to new artists. You know. I'll
Speaker 2: hear about somebody. Somebody will say, you need to hear
Speaker 2: this guy's really good. And I go out of my
Speaker 2: way to listen to people, you know, who are just
Speaker 2: getting started. And you know, I get excited when I
Speaker 2: hear somebody I think it's really good, and you know,
Speaker 2: I'll go out and support them and talk with them
Speaker 2: and everything, and listen to their music at home, and
Speaker 2: you know, give them advice maybe sometimes if they ask
Speaker 2: for it, you know, just give them support, you know,
Speaker 2: because I remember what it's like when I first started,
Speaker 2: you know. So there was a girl who in Nashville,
Speaker 2: who's her name is Alicia Blue, which is a great
Speaker 2: stage name, but it's actually her real name. And she's
Speaker 2: quite good. She's a really good lyricist, really good songs
Speaker 2: she did, She recorded and did a video of her
Speaker 2: singing this song. Jane says that Jane's Addiction did and
Speaker 2: it's really it's really good. She just played it for
Speaker 2: me recently. And so you know, there are I mean,
Speaker 2: there are younger artists. I think, who are I haven't
Speaker 2: enough of that rebellion in them, you know, but the
Speaker 2: business has changed somewhat too, so you have to look
Speaker 2: at that, and I get more frustrated, I guess when
Speaker 2: I probably more about the business into things than the
Speaker 2: artists actually, or the lack thereof, because a lot of
Speaker 2: times I'll see and hear an artists I think is
Speaker 2: really really good and wonder why he or she doesn't
Speaker 2: get the attention they deserve, or you know, why he
Speaker 2: or she hasn't gotten record deal yet, and you know,
Speaker 2: people aren't paying attention to them like they should be,
Speaker 2: And that probably frustrates me as much as anything.
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing that frustrates me is people our age.
Speaker 1: We are half dead. I mean, you're very alive. You're
Speaker 1: staying up on things you have opinions. Then there are
Speaker 1: other people. I know, well I'm old, I'm retired, I'm
Speaker 1: you know, just into lifestyle. They're very weird.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just start thinking old. They're old because they
Speaker 2: think they're old.
Speaker 1: You know, well you're certainly young, Lucinda. I want to think,
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time with my audience.
Speaker 2: Well, you're more than welcome. I've enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 1: Great. Hopefully I asked some questions. We went some places
Speaker 1: that were not we normally go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did.
Speaker 1: That's okay, No, that's what I want people who have
Speaker 1: been interviewed, you know, you try and ask to ask
Speaker 1: the same questions because then their eyes roll in the back.
Speaker 2: Of the Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I like that
Speaker 2: you asked different questions. I wasn't expecting a lot of them.
Speaker 2: But that's okay, Okay, you're a rebel.
Speaker 1: Oh you have no idea. I am that person. You
Speaker 1: know what I used to say in the old days
Speaker 1: was I believed in this wave theory. So in the
Speaker 1: fifties the waves came in, everybody was a beat. Nick
Speaker 1: the wave went out and we had Manor G. Krebs
Speaker 1: On Sure he was left on shore then the sixties
Speaker 1: we had uh what's his name, uh Ginsburg, the poet
Speaker 1: he was left on shore.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I never wore a leisure suit. I never did anything.
Speaker 1: I stayed true to who I was.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But even worse now today people don't even remember the
Speaker 1: way it was. You know, I feel like Grandpa saying, well,
Speaker 1: back in the sixties, back in the seventies, Yeah, when
Speaker 1: people had values and they would say no, you know,
Speaker 1: you talk about being an artist whatever. Everybody say, Oh,
Speaker 1: I can make money, I can get fame. Yes, drives
Speaker 1: me crazy.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there you think there's still that that that
Speaker 2: still happens.
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, you're a middle class person. Your father
Speaker 1: was a college professor. We are the same age. We
Speaker 1: didn't grow up in the same part of the country.
Speaker 1: But when I went to high school, regular public high school,
Speaker 1: there were kids who were middle class and they were
Speaker 1: the art kids. They were separate from the cool, separate
Speaker 1: from the jock, etc. Etc. And those people became the artists.
Speaker 1: An equal story is Jefferson Airplane. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: a middle class person, you say no. Bill Graham was
Speaker 1: the manager for while. He said, whenever they had any success,
Speaker 1: they didn't want to work. They want to stay home
Speaker 1: and smoke dope. It's like, you know, they had a
Speaker 1: feel for it. They wouldn't do anything for money, whereas today, Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you people won't do anything for money, they'll play
Speaker 1: with dictators, they'll work.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: It's like you're saying, you're not cutting the verse from
Speaker 1: the song. Well, we grew up in the era where
Speaker 1: the people who are performing wrote the songs and although
Speaker 1: there are some there are some great intro.
Speaker 2: That was a sorry to interrupt, but that is probably
Speaker 2: the biggest change I think over the you know, over
Speaker 2: the years has been going from artist recording who didn't write,
Speaker 2: to artists recording who wrote their own songs.
Speaker 1: I think this is huge, you I think I was
Speaker 1: talking to somebody the other day and I say, look
Speaker 1: at the frame of reference. When Mariah Carey came in
Speaker 1: the nineties, that was pop. We hadn't had pop like
Speaker 1: that since the sixties. But today everybody was brought up
Speaker 1: on that and they think, you know, like what you
Speaker 1: see on TV shows with competition shows, where for us,
Speaker 1: no way. The other thing is there are people our
Speaker 1: age who get plastic surgery and they go on stage
Speaker 1: and play the old hits to people who look old,
Speaker 1: but they you know, it's like, you know, if somebody
Speaker 1: wants to go, fine, but it creeps me out. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: especially as I've seen these acts so many times, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, unless you're my friend, whatever, I'm not gonna go.
Speaker 1: I remember when.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's just boring.
Speaker 1: I mean, but a lot of people are disheartened. I mean,
Speaker 1: your success came a little later in age, but you're
Speaker 1: continuing to work. There's certain you know, that comes down
Speaker 1: to whether you're an artist, and a lot of people can't.
Speaker 2: They can't. That's I'm an artist first and foremost. You know,
Speaker 2: I live, eat, and breathe and sleep with my art.
Speaker 2: You know, that's the thing. At the risk of sounding idealistic,
Speaker 2: you know, but it's true though.
Speaker 1: Well you know, an artist can say no and won't compromise.
Speaker 1: I mean, you might say, well, I'll cut my set
Speaker 1: short ten minutes, but I'm not you know, strings on
Speaker 1: this track.
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, because everything is made from an artistic perspective,
Speaker 2: you know, So is it gonna help the song or
Speaker 2: is it not? It's that simple, you know.
Speaker 1: Another element and I've had personal experience with this, the
Speaker 1: audience knows. Everybody was. I was on a percentage phrase.
Speaker 1: Oh do the commercial do the ads? No one cares
Speaker 1: about that. Oh there's not that's not true.
Speaker 2: They do. Yeah, they pay attention to everything. And that's
Speaker 2: the other thing is a lot of artists and performers
Speaker 2: underestimate their audience. I think, you know, well, give me
Speaker 2: a little deeper. Well, I mean, I just think, what
Speaker 2: kind of I what you were saying. You might not
Speaker 2: think they care if you take this verse out of
Speaker 2: a song or something, but they pay attention to the versus.
Speaker 2: You know, I have the best fans ever, I think
Speaker 2: in the whole world, because they're loyal. I mean, they're patient.
Speaker 2: You know, they stick with me if I make a
Speaker 2: mistake when I'm performing, They're still there at the end
Speaker 2: of the night. You know, they don't leave. You know,
Speaker 2: they listen to what I'm saying. They pay attention to
Speaker 2: the lyrics and the songs, and they remember my songs
Speaker 2: and they love them and they love me. I feel
Speaker 2: like there's a real family thing there between my fans
Speaker 2: and me.
Speaker 1: Well that's what it's all about today. Because the machine
Speaker 1: doesn't exist like terrestrial radio, I don't know anybody listens
Speaker 1: to terrestrial radio. You know, it's like it's all everybody
Speaker 1: that's talking to my shrink about this earlier today everybody
Speaker 1: their own thing. Now it's like you make your own breaks.
Speaker 1: Nobody is world dominant. Like for all this hype about
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, I mean, we remember when everybody knew every
Speaker 1: word to every song because it was on the radio
Speaker 1: and we all listen to the radio. Whereas today you
Speaker 1: go around, most people can even name a Taylor Swift song.
Speaker 1: It's not not making it about her because she's really big,
Speaker 1: bad bunny. There's a couple of these people. They are
Speaker 1: The Stones went on tour in seventy two. It was like,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the second Coming. Everybody can rage,
Speaker 1: can sing satisfaction, jumping Jackflash, we know that shit. Yeah, Okay, Lousen,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go till next time. This is Bob Left
Speaker 1: Sets