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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftsets podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Lucinda Williams. This year published an autobiography,

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Speaker 1: Don't Tell Anybody The Secrets I Told You, Lucinda. The

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Speaker 1: book came out earlier in the year. What's been the

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Speaker 1: aftermath for you personally?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's I mean, I've been overwhelmed with great responses

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Speaker 2: and great reviews and everything, mostly people telling me they've

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Speaker 2: read or they've listened to the audio book. A lot

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Speaker 2: of people, a lot of responses about that. The audiobook.

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Speaker 2: People seem to really be responding positively to that, and

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Speaker 2: that makes me feel good.

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Speaker 1: And so you read the audio book yourself? Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: was that like doing that?

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Speaker 2: It was interesting. I'd never done it before. I Mean,

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Speaker 2: the whole experience of writing a book is different than

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Speaker 2: anything I've been through, you know. So, I mean I've

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Speaker 2: written songs, made gone in and recorded albums and you know,

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Speaker 2: done all of that, everything goes along with making an album.

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Speaker 2: But it's there's nothing that compares anything I've done in

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Speaker 2: the past to writing your own book and all the

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Speaker 2: things that go along with that, you know, the editing

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Speaker 2: and the the sending, the you know, writing a piece

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Speaker 2: and then sending it in for the editor to read,

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Speaker 2: and then getting the editors feedback and going back and

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Speaker 2: forth about whether that something should be included or not,

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Speaker 2: and you know that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: So how did it come about that you actually wrote

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Speaker 1: the book?

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Speaker 2: Well, for years people have been saying I should write

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Speaker 2: a book, you know, because I guess it's because so

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Speaker 2: many of my songs. I have a handful of narrative songs,

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Speaker 2: and every whenever I perform, I always talk about who

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Speaker 2: I wrote the song about, what I wrote it about,

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Speaker 2: And you know, I go and try to go into

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Speaker 2: as much depth as I can about the songs before

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Speaker 2: I sing them when I'm on stage, and the audience

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Speaker 2: seems to really like that and respond well to it.

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Speaker 1: What was the actual process, Well.

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Speaker 2: I got an offer from my manager, Tom Overbeek could

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Speaker 2: probably have answer this better.

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Speaker 1: But who's also your husband, Let's.

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Speaker 2: Say he's awesome my husband, Yes, But anyway, we were

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Speaker 2: approached by you know, a couple of different publishing companies

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Speaker 2: in New York. Of course they're all in New York City,

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Speaker 2: and you know a bunch of meetings were planned where

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Speaker 2: I would go and I would meet with the with

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Speaker 2: the people at the poshing companies, you know, and they

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Speaker 2: were all very enthusiastic, and you know, we would just

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Speaker 2: talk about what kind of book I wanted to make,

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Speaker 2: write and see, I said, make like I was making

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Speaker 2: an album, what kind of book I wanted to write.

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Speaker 2: And they were very adamant, all every one of them were.

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Speaker 2: They were all very adamant about that it be in

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Speaker 2: my own voice, you know, So that was mainly what

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Speaker 2: they were concerned about.

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Speaker 1: So you made the deal, they said what they want.

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Speaker 1: How did you actually write it?

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Speaker 2: Right? Well, that was the thing. Before I wrote it,

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Speaker 2: I didn't know how to get started. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: just didn't know what you know, I'm used to when

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Speaker 2: I write songs to getting ready to make an album.

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Speaker 2: You know, I like to be in a certain mood

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Speaker 2: if I'm going to be writing, And this felt more

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Speaker 2: like work, I guess, kind of. You know. I didn't

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Speaker 2: have the luxury of being able to. I used to

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Speaker 2: have this fantasy that if I ever wrote a book,

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Speaker 2: I was going to be you know, like these writers

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Speaker 2: you hear about you go away to the mountains and

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Speaker 2: live in a cabin for a year, you know, they

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Speaker 2: they have they take a hiatus, you know, to write

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Speaker 2: the great American novel, and they sit there in their

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Speaker 2: cabin and drink whiskey or scotch and smoke cigarettes and

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Speaker 2: write their novel. You know, That's what I thought it

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Speaker 2: was always going to be like. But it was anything

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Speaker 2: but that, you know. I basically grabbed a couple of

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Speaker 2: legal pass ads, sat down in my favorite chair, which

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Speaker 2: is a good start to be comfortable, and I started writing,

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Speaker 2: just as if I were telling someone my life story.

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Speaker 2: You know. I put everything in order, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: want it to sound like Okay, I was born in

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Speaker 2: late Charles, Louisiana, and then I went to this town

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Speaker 2: and then I went to you know, I wanted it

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Speaker 2: to be well written, and that's what I was mostly

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Speaker 2: concerned about. And I was very concerned that my dad

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Speaker 2: wasn't alive anymore to kind of oversee my writing, you know,

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Speaker 2: some because I could. I could have asked him questions

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Speaker 2: and he would have suggested things, and so I felt

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Speaker 2: kind of insecure because he wasn't around anymore, and I

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Speaker 2: really wanted here's a good example of what it was like.

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Speaker 2: I was backstage with Roseanna Cash one time at a show.

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Speaker 2: We were doing and we were talking about because she

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Speaker 2: had written a book and I was talking about my

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Speaker 2: book and everything, and she suddenly broke the conversation and

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Speaker 2: said with Sinda, you don't have to be James Joyce,

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Speaker 2: and I said, yeah, that's just it. I want to

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Speaker 2: be James Joyce. You know. So I was kind of

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Speaker 2: sort of holding myself back unnecessarily because I wanted to

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Speaker 2: be able to have this well written, you know. I

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Speaker 2: wanted the New York Times to like it and everything

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Speaker 2: and really want what it really was was. I wanted

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Speaker 2: my dad to like it. And I wanted all of

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Speaker 2: his writer all these writers I grew up with who

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Speaker 2: are had this imminent respect for. I wanted them to

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Speaker 2: appreciate it and like it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you finally get over the hub, you sit

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Speaker 1: in a comfortable chair, you have the legal pads. The

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Speaker 1: hardest part is starting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had to have a certain kind of pen

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Speaker 2: that I like.

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Speaker 1: What kind of pen is that?

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Speaker 2: See? I knew you were going to ask me a question.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't ready for Wait a minute, Okay, I don't

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Speaker 2: have it in front of me. I have to get one.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, irrelevant of the brand name, what's so special

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Speaker 1: about that pen.

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Speaker 2: I just like the consistency of the ink then.

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Speaker 1: It comes out even when you write it, or the

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Speaker 1: way it looks on the page.

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Speaker 2: Yes, both okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's a ballpoint No.

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Speaker 2: I don't like ballpoint pens. Never have liked this.

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Speaker 1: So is it like a regular nib with an ink pen?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a John.

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Speaker 1: Sorry, we're gonna get a We're gonna get a verdict

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Speaker 1: here on the pen.

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Speaker 2: I need that pen that a lot.

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Speaker 1: So it's one specific pen and you have to fill

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Speaker 1: it with ink. No, okay, So here we have the

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Speaker 1: pen from John.

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Speaker 2: We have the actual pen. Okay, it's called a Precise

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Speaker 2: V seven. I've just done it. Commercial.

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Speaker 1: Is this You've been your favorite pen for years? How

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Speaker 1: do you stumble on this pen?

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Speaker 2: I don't know. How do you ever stumble on a

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Speaker 2: pen upon a pen? It was just around. I started

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Speaker 2: riding with it and liked it. Amazon carries them, yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: It could be delivered. Are you a big Amazon person?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I shouldn't be, though, because one time I was

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Speaker 2: shopping on Amazon and Steve Earl. I was backstage at

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Speaker 2: a venue and Steve Earl is there and he's looked

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Speaker 2: over my shoulder. And saw what I was doing, and

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Speaker 2: he said, are you shopping on Amazon? And I said yes,

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Speaker 2: And he said, oh, I don't go on there. He said,

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Speaker 2: that man is that's a bad man. He's a bad man,

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Speaker 2: the guy who runs Amazon.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, my opinion is this that I had

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Speaker 1: too many times I went to the store and they

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Speaker 1: didn't have what I was looking for, whereas I know

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Speaker 1: they have it on Amazon. I'm not polluting, I'm not

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Speaker 1: driving in Yeah, it's so convenient some things you can

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Speaker 1: stop online shopping Amazon, Google. Yeah, but these things are

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Speaker 1: here forever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty hard to let go of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they're coming to my house seeming every day. So

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Speaker 1: how many times did you start and stop and start

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Speaker 1: to stop before you found your groove?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, probably two or three months.

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Speaker 1: Oh really?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's the other thing. I was talking to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people about writing a book and read

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Speaker 2: a lot of other people's autobiographies or biographies before I

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Speaker 2: started mine, you know, see how they wrote theirs. And

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Speaker 2: a lot of other musicians who had written books offered

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Speaker 2: to talk with me about it, or if I needed

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Speaker 2: any help, please give them a call. That that kind

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Speaker 2: of thing, And and several of them told me how

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Speaker 2: long it took them to write their books, and I

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Speaker 2: was a I was amazed. Actually. I think Ruis Springsteen

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Speaker 2: said ten years. I think Roseanne Cash said seven years.

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Speaker 2: You know, so that made me feel better about it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so how long did it actually take you to

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Speaker 1: write it?

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Speaker 2: I think it was two or three years overall, and

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Speaker 2: which sounds amazing. It's not like I was sitting in

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Speaker 2: the chair for two or three years without moving. But

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Speaker 2: it's just more about life getting in the way, you know,

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Speaker 2: and we had we were still touring and recording. You know,

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Speaker 2: I was trying to write this book in the middle

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Speaker 2: of all the other stuff I had to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you said something a few minutes ago about getting

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Speaker 1: in the mood to make a record. Mm hmm. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about that.

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Speaker 2: Well, I meant getting in the mood to write okngs right, yeah,

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Speaker 2: to record for the record.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, let's slow down. Do you say, oh, I

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Speaker 1: want to make a record, I better write songs, or

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Speaker 1: you're writing songs, say well, I have enough songs to

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Speaker 1: make a record.

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Speaker 2: Usually that's a good question. I prefer it's happened both ways.

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Speaker 2: But I prefer to just be writing songs and then

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Speaker 2: have enough to go in and make a record. And

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Speaker 2: I've done it both ways. I've done it that way

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Speaker 2: where I'm just writing and I'm not I don't feel

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Speaker 2: pressured about having to get in the studio by a

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Speaker 2: certain time. But I've also had that pressure a little bit,

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Speaker 2: you know, like we have to go in the studio.

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Speaker 2: We've got to have a record out by next year

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Speaker 2: or something, so you know, we got to get these songs.

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Speaker 2: I'd rather just concentrate on the songwriting and you know,

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Speaker 2: be able to be spontaneous.

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Speaker 1: So what does that look like? Are you standing in

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Speaker 1: the shower to go, oh, man, I got it? I

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Speaker 1: got to go to write this song down.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes, yeah, I do. I come up with ideas in

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Speaker 2: this shower quite often, actually, or when I first wake

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Speaker 2: up and I'm in that zone between a sleep and awake,

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Speaker 2: you know, and your brain's in a special kind of place.

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Speaker 2: I get a lot of times I lay in bed

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Speaker 2: like that before I actually get up and think I've

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Speaker 2: got lines running through my head and then I have

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Speaker 2: to find the voice record on my phone or something

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Speaker 2: that I've got to get it down right away before

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Speaker 2: I forget.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do this. Do the words come with the music

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Speaker 1: or the words come down and then you have the music.

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Speaker 2: Lately what it's been, the words come and then I

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Speaker 2: add the music. But occasionally it happens both ways. Occasionally

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Speaker 2: I'll a melody will pop out with some words like

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Speaker 2: maybe a hook line.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you could be in the shower, you could

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Speaker 1: be in the bitter and spontaneous. Do you ever sit

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Speaker 1: down and say I have to write a song and

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Speaker 1: start writing a.

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Speaker 2: Song only if I'm being asked to write a song

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Speaker 2: for something like a movie or something like that. It's

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Speaker 2: not one of the things I enjoy doing as much.

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Speaker 2: I call it writing on demand. You know Steve Earl

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Speaker 2: is speaking of Steve. He's great at that. He can

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Speaker 2: just whip up these songs, you know, on demand like

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Speaker 2: that for movies or TV shows or that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the book. You're very personal in

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Speaker 1: the book. Some of these people are still alive. How

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Speaker 1: did you choose what to reveal and to what degree

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Speaker 1: were you self conscious about telling these truths?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, when it came to talking about previous

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Speaker 2: romantic partners, obviously I didn't want to start talking about

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Speaker 2: you know, the technical, you know, how it was in

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Speaker 2: bed with this person or something like that. You know,

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Speaker 2: other than that too much alcohol may have been consumed

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Speaker 2: and the night didn't go as well as I'd hoped.

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Speaker 2: I think there's something in there about that with one

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Speaker 2: of the guys.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, there are a lot of guys. I

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Speaker 1: love this song by the Tubes called boy Crazy. Would

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Speaker 1: you say that you became boy crazy?

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Speaker 2: At some point I knew, See this is one of

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Speaker 2: my fears because I had so many guys listed. In

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Speaker 2: every every other page I talk about being smitten with

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Speaker 2: someone and worried that there were too much of that

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Speaker 2: in the book. You know, I'm writing too much about

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Speaker 2: these this guy and that guy and the other and

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Speaker 2: you know, and now sure enough you're asking me about that.

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Speaker 1: I was. I was asking you that as more of

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Speaker 1: a personality direction thing. One of the things I thought

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Speaker 1: was great about the book was you talked about your crushes.

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Speaker 1: You talked about your relationships in a way that people don't.

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Speaker 1: I'm not judging you for that, I just think seriously,

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Speaker 1: but I'm asking how you judge yourself, not how.

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Speaker 2: I well, I just I tried to look at it

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Speaker 2: as as if you know, someone else were writing it

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Speaker 2: and how it I feel, you know. And also I

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Speaker 2: learned a little bit about that by reading some of

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Speaker 2: the other artists books, like Carly Simon's book was Pretty

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Speaker 2: you know, she talked about her relationship with James Taylor,

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Speaker 2: and there are just a couple of things I thought,

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Speaker 2: wow when I read the book, you know, like that

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Speaker 2: might have been a little TMI. You know.

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Speaker 1: Well, what resonated for me was is said, what kind

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Speaker 1: of guy you like? You would feel a spark and

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Speaker 1: you would be active as opposed to passive.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, well, that's great that you got that impression

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Speaker 2: of me, wow, because I'm so shy.

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Speaker 1: Actually, well, I can talk about relationships in my life

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Speaker 1: and biggest relationships when I was took action in a

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Speaker 1: way that I would never take action, and I can't

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Speaker 1: sit here and tell you why. You know, it's like

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I did something was completely out

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Speaker 1: of character.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it usually takes a little bit of wine for

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Speaker 2: me to do that.

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Speaker 1: Two of my most serious relationships went on for years

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Speaker 1: that I took action, and I both times I could

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Speaker 1: not replicate that. I don't know what I mean, I

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Speaker 1: you know, I just acted in a way that I

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Speaker 1: never would before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great though.

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Speaker 1: It is great, but as you talk about being a

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Speaker 1: shy person, it's not something you can manufacture. Someone said,

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Speaker 1: go do that. He said, no, no, no, I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you got married to Greg Sowders of the

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Speaker 1: Long Writers, who I certainly know from the publishing world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you talked about.

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Speaker 1: Previous relationships of the book. Why did you decide to

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Speaker 1: get married then?

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Speaker 2: Probably because when I you know, when I start the

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Speaker 2: answer out with probably, that means I don't really know.

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Speaker 2: Probably because he told me he was my ace and

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Speaker 2: the hole. You know, I'm the guy who's gonna be

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Speaker 2: here for you when all the other ones have left,

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Speaker 2: And I was just ready to hear that, you know, And.

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Speaker 1: Okay, how hard was it to end it?

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Speaker 2: It was hard? You know. Actually I remember when he

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Speaker 2: moved in with me. The day he moved in with me,

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Speaker 2: I had all kinds of concerns and doubts. And you know,

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Speaker 2: because I was very and I still am very independent,

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Speaker 2: and I like my quiet alone time, especially if I'm

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Speaker 2: going to write. So basically he became a born again Christian.

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Speaker 1: Oh why you were married?

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Speaker 2: Well, towards the end of it, you.

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Speaker 1: Know that's enough to end a relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was.

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Speaker 1: One thing in the book that you mentioned numerous times.

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Speaker 1: Is your OCD your obsessive compulsive disorder? Tell us about that?

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Speaker 2: Oh God, well, it's a real thing, for one thing,

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Speaker 2: because you know, people joke about it a lot. Oh

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Speaker 2: I've got OCD and all of this, but they don't

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Speaker 2: really usually, you know, because if you really have it,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it could be a serious thing, get in

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Speaker 2: the way of life. I heard that Bob Dylan had

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Speaker 2: a similar thing that I have, where you had you

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Speaker 2: feel like, you know, you have to wash your hands

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Speaker 2: on a regular basis, which is a good thing. But

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Speaker 2: sometimes I've washed my hands when I don't really have to.

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Speaker 2: I just think, I do you know I don't like

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Speaker 2: to touch door knobs because other people's hands have touched them. God,

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Speaker 2: this is so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: I can't I have OCD too. I saw a special

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Speaker 1: OCD doctor about it. Really helped. Okay, I say, Lucinda,

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go out for a burger. You lock the door,

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Speaker 1: can you leave or do you have to check to

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Speaker 1: see if the walk.

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Speaker 2: I can leave? Yeah, I don't have that kind.

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Speaker 1: Do you have any hoarding tendencies.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I do save certain things

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Speaker 2: like memorabilia, photographs and that sort of thing, but I

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Speaker 2: don't like clutter. So if i'm I wouldn't be able

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Speaker 2: to be a hoarder because of the clutter.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about making a record. You say that

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Speaker 1: you like what you want, but let's go one step further.

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Speaker 1: Let's just assume you're in complete control. Let's say you're

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Speaker 1: mixing the final track. How hard will you be for

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Speaker 1: you to walk away and say this is the one.

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Speaker 2: It wouldn't be hard because I would know that this

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Speaker 2: is the one, you know. But the main thing with

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Speaker 2: in the studio when you say I'm in control, that's

347
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Speaker 2: exactly it. You know. If I am in control, then

348
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Speaker 2: I'm able to decide which track is it is you know?

349
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Speaker 2: Or if this is the track you know, as opposed

350
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Speaker 2: to debating it with the producer or the engineer because

351
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Speaker 2: everybody's got their own opinion.

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Speaker 1: I'm asking something a little bit different. Okay, Let's say

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Speaker 1: that you are alone in the room, you were totally

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Speaker 1: in control. Can you make a decision easily and move

355
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Speaker 1: on or do you constantly ruminate or on the decision well,

356
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Speaker 1: maybe it could be better, maybe this is a little worse.

357
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Speaker 2: It's kind of a hard question because I've done both things,

358
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Speaker 2: and I might do one or the other. But I

359
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Speaker 2: like to think that, yes, I would be able to

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Speaker 2: make a decision and walk away.

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Speaker 1: Okay, because that's a classic OCD thing. Yeah, so you

362
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Speaker 1: have your washing your hands, you have touching the doorknob.

363
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Speaker 1: What else would you classify as your OCD?

364
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Speaker 2: That's it? I mean, you know what I other people

365
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 2: consider OCD. I might not like I like things in order.

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Speaker 2: I like things to be organized. I probably got that

367
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Speaker 2: from my dad because he was like that, you know,

368
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Speaker 2: I don't like clutter. I don't think that's OCD though.

369
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Speaker 1: That's just Okay, we're having dinner. We're having dinner, but

370
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 1: we're just talking. The silverware is laid out, and you

371
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: notice that my silverware is askew. Are you going to

372
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: reach over and straighten it?

373
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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: And do you ever get in OCD loops and are

375
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Speaker 1: tortured by it?

376
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

377
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: And what do you do to get out of the loop?

378
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Speaker 1: If anything?

379
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Speaker 2: Well, hand sanitizer has been a game changer because then

380
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily have to find water and soap to

381
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,959
Speaker 2: wash my hands. I can just put you know, sprint,

382
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: some hand sanitizer on, and then I'm good to go.

383
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: So it saves a lot of time. But I need

384
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: to have one of those with me all the time.

385
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: It's like my little drug or my little you know,

386
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Speaker 2: kind of it calms me down.

387
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 1: But let's say you're home alone, you're not going anywhere,

388
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: and you wash your hands. How long will it take

389
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: you to wash your hands?

390
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 2: Oh? You probably read that book Boy who Couldn't Stop washing.

391
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:15,800
Speaker 1: Well, I'm certainly aware of this, and I have my

392
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: own issues. That's why I'm asking.

393
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a normal time, you know. I mean, I

394
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: prefer that the water is hot as opposed to cold.

395
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: But even if there's no hot water, I just wash

396
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: my hands and go about my day.

397
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: Okay. So you have this itinerant lifestyle. Once you hit

398
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: your late teams and you don't have great commercial success

399
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: for the better part of twenty years, and you're working,

400
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: as you say, a lot of low level jobs. You're

401
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: working in record stores, et cetera. How did you keep

402
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: your mood up?

403
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: Antidepressants? Probably just you know, the group of people I

404
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 2: associated with were fairly up people, and you know, I

405
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 2: tried to surround myself with positive people for the most part.

406
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 1: Do you take it or did you take antidepressants?

407
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 2: Yeah? I did, and I do.

408
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: What was the space in between? You were off antidepressants

409
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: for a while.

410
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well it took a while before I started taking

411
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: them because you know, I didn't have anyone prescribe them.

412
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: I mean, it took a while to find, you know,

413
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: the right doctor to talk to about it and everything.

414
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 2: But one of them is supposed to target OCD, supposed

415
00:26:59,200 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 2: to help with that.

416
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: So which one is that?

417
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: Effects or is?

418
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: Okay? Yeah, I know what effects her is.

419
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's supposed to help with that.

420
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: And you take something along with effects.

421
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 2: Or well, I'm kind of confused right now. That's what

422
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: I'm talking to the Dodger about, is whether affectser is

423
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: working on its own or if we need to, you know,

424
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 2: add something else or take something else instead. You have

425
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 2: to try out a few different ones to see which

426
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 2: one works better. It sounds like you know this already.

427
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah I do, but I know my story. I'm

428
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: getting your story. So you know, there's benefits to antidepressants,

429
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: but I've never taken a drug without side effects. So

430
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: do you find the antidepressants negative affect you in any way,

431
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 1: creatively or in other ways.

432
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: No, it's I've just felt the positive effects which have

433
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 2: been just lifting me out of this black I used

434
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,520
Speaker 2: to call it a black cloud. You know that kind

435
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: of settles over you and you know, just or having

436
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 2: a sense of well being.

437
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: Was this something you felt from a young age.

438
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 2: I've probably had problems with that at a young age,

439
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 2: but just didn't recognize didn't know what it was, you know,

440
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: just I probably looked at it more as mood swings,

441
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: you know, that sort of thing.

442
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: Were you ever in existential despair? Like maybe obviously you

443
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: didn't commit suicide because you're still here, But was that

444
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: something you say like, man, I just can't take it anymore.

445
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: I felt like, man, I can't take it anymore. But

446
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: that was as far as it when it was that thought.

447
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: We've all felt that way.

448
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: I certainly think so. You know, it's hard to get

449
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 1: an honest take from somebody. Let's switch gears to the beginning.

450
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: You're born in Louisiana, your father ends up working in Arkansas.

451
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: What the people from the north not get about those

452
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: states in the South.

453
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking that. That's the million dollar question. Well,

454
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: what they don't get is that we're not all backwards.

455
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: We're not all lazy or stupid or uneducated. We're not

456
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: all races, okay, And I mean I was doing this

457
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 2: kind of goes along with what you're at. I was

458
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 2: doing an event one time where I was being interviewed

459
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: in front of an audience, and I played some songs

460
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: and then the interview is done as part of the performance,

461
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: and then the audience was allowed to ask me questions afterwards.

462
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,479
Speaker 2: And this woman leaned over and very seriously she asked.

463
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: She said, you know, I would really love to travel

464
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 2: down south sometime. But she said, what I really want

465
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: to know is is it safe? Right? I mean that

466
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: was of serious. That was you know, is it safe? Well,

467
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: you know that answers your question right there.

468
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: Well, I lived with a woman for years who was

469
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: from Tallahassee, which certainly you can go back a couple

470
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: of decades was more Georgia than South, and there were

471
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: certain certain things who were defined. She would say, you know,

472
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: it's getting cold in here. It took me a long

473
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: time race that man raised the window. We're in the north.

474
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: We would say, can you raise the window? But there

475
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: would always be these little kids surround that you got

476
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 1: to pick up them.

477
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: That's funny.

478
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: And her father was extremely successful financially and ran in

479
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: that crowd and drinking was part of the culture. It

480
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 1: was not a class thing whatsoever.

481
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 2: No, No, that's not a class thing because I grew

482
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 2: up with around all our of riders and they can

483
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: certainly drink, they know how to drink. Yeah, I learned

484
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 2: how to drink probably, you know, hanging around in that crowd.

485
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: And to what degree were you and still a consumer

486
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: of alcohol?

487
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: Not anymore than socially, you know, So you don't have.

488
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: An addictive personality?

489
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 2: No, well I don't know. Maybe I do, but but

490
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: I didn't get addicted to anything.

491
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: So we're the exact same age. You're growing up in

492
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: Louisiana in the fifties and early sixties. What is it like?

493
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 1: You say your family didn't have that much money, but

494
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: you weren't aware of it. Were you into the modern

495
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 1: music where you're listening to the Beach Boys in the

496
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: Four Seasons where you're watching my three sons? What was

497
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: everyday life like?

498
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know, we all wanted it to be like

499
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: leave it to Beaver, but it was not Leave it

500
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: to beaver. You know, there was no mom in a

501
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 2: nice dress, wearing heels, fitzing dinner and that sort of thing.

502
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: You know, it was a little it could be a

503
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: little chaotic at times. You know. There was my dad,

504
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: who was a poet and a college professor, not making

505
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: that much money, married to a woman who had was

506
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: dealing with mental illness a lot, and then three kids,

507
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 2: you know, running around. I don't know how he did it.

508
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: I mean, he would still be writing. I remember looking

509
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: seeing him sitting in a corner of the in the

510
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 2: living room with his head bent down over a padded paper.

511
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: You know. He was either reading or writing all the time.

512
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: So he could tune out the chaos.

513
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he could tune out the chaos. And I

514
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: wish I'd learned how to do that.

515
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: So you're someone who needs your own space, can't be interrupted.

516
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, But my dad, at the same time, he was

517
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 2: very we really bonded from an early age, and he

518
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: was there for me, you know, when my mother might

519
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: have just not been able to deal with things on

520
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 2: any given day, and my dad was always there. You know,

521
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: he was very he stayed very aware, and he was

522
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: very open minded and you know, very intelligent and understood

523
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 2: what was going on. You know. He was very empathetic

524
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: towards my mother is the thing. So you know, we

525
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 2: didn't go up with this feeling of you know, he

526
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,919
Speaker 2: always said to the kids I had, there were three

527
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 2: of us, I was the oldest. He always said to us,

528
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: her fault. She can't help it, she's not well, you know,

529
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 2: so we had somewhere to put it.

530
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: Did your parents ultimately break up because your father met

531
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: someone new or it was time?

532
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 2: That's a good question, because he did meet someone new,

533
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 2: but I think that was after they were already broken up.

534
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,720
Speaker 2: I think it was because it was time.

535
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,759
Speaker 1: And how hard was that for him.

536
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: I don't remember it being, you know, really heavy and

537
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 2: traumatic or anything. As a kid, I remember feeling almost relieved,

538
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: you know, because there have been so much yelling and

539
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 2: fighting and all of that that I think I was

540
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: kind of relieved that that would be over with, you know,

541
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have to listen to the arguing all the time.

542
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: So your mother moves out. How much contact do you

543
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: have with your mother then?

544
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: Quite a bit. She lived in New Orleans. After that,

545
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: she stayed, she loved it. She was from Louisiana, originally,

546
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: and her family was all there. So she lived in

547
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 2: New Orleans and I would go visit her from time

548
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 2: to time and stay at her apartment, and you know,

549
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:39,320
Speaker 2: we were close. You know, it was a challenging relationship

550
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: and difficult at times, but you know I loved her

551
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 2: and I knew she loved me, and you know, there

552
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: wasn't any acting out or anything on her part with me.

553
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: She saved that for my dad.

554
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: So when she moved out, she lived far away, New Orleans.

555
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: And how often we were in Baton Rouge? Okay, the

556
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 2: university LSU Louisiana State University is located there, and that's

557
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,640
Speaker 2: when my dad was teaching, So we were living there,

558
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,479
Speaker 2: and she lived in New Orleans, which is right next

559
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: to Baton Rouge. It's an easy drive.

560
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: And how often would you see her, I don't know,

561
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: probably once a month or something. And how often would

562
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: you talk to her?

563
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: Maybe once a week, It's hard to remember.

564
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: And when you interacted with her, did you end up

565
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: being the parent.

566
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 2: Sometimes? Yeah? I know all about that stuff.

567
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: Okay, So your father brings home one of his students

568
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 1: who is not even half a generation older than you are,

569
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: and you're just hitting puberty yourself. How'd you cope with that?

570
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: And could you ever accept it?

571
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: It was difficult. I didn't. I tried to cope with it,

572
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: but again, it was one of those kind of strained

573
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: relationships where you know, I've wanted it to be a

574
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: certain way, but it was you know, you can't really

575
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: take those things and force them into a certain place,

576
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 2: you know. I think she was trying really hard, maybe

577
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 2: too hard, to you know, fill this certain role, and

578
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: I think I felt I remember feeling a little intimidated,

579
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 2: a little shy around her, you know.

580
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: And then as a young person in your living in Chile,

581
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: what's it like being an American living in Chile in

582
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 1: a you know, a pre you know, modern technology era.

583
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we had a stereo system and I had

584
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 2: Beatles albums. I was able to get a hold of

585
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: him somehow or another and was listening to those NonStop.

586
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: And there was a chile and folks sing were by

587
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: the name of Violeta Potta, who I discovered while I

588
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 2: was living there, who I just absolutely loved, and she

589
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 2: was kind of like the John Bayez of Chile. My

590
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 2: dad was friends with. Her brother was the poet nikon

591
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 2: Or PoTA, who my dad was, became close friends with

592
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: and that's how I discovered VIOLETA. Potter.

593
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 1: Let's go back, how did you discover the Beatles?

594
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: Are we hearing them on the radio and falling in

595
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 2: love with the songs and eventually, you know, getting the

596
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 2: albums and or the singles?

597
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: Were you definitely a Beatles girl as opposed to the

598
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:13,720
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones?

599
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? I was a Beatles girl and then I was

600
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 2: a Rolling Stones squirl. I mean it sort of happened

601
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, But I loved the

602
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 2: Rolling Stones, loved and loved them.

603
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you were in high school, how would

604
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 1: you be described? What kind of person?

605
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: Creative? Friendly, cute?

606
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: Well? Were you one of those people they say, well,

607
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 1: she's hip and cool, but she's hangs with the yard crowd,

608
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: or she hangs with us, she's one of us, or

609
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: she's you know, two cool, she's hanging with the cheerleaders.

610
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: Where were you?

611
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: No, God, I was not with the cheerleaders. I was

612
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,279
Speaker 2: not with the with the gym crowd. You know. The

613
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 2: working out I failed. I got zero's in Jim. I

614
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: hated it. I tried to be on the girls softball

615
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 2: team and that failed. Miserably because they were so competitive

616
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: and so mean spirited. I didn't like mean spirited people.

617
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: I actually had a lot of guys as friends and

618
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 2: I would hang out with them a lot.

619
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: Are you physically active, No, you had a stroke, But

620
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: before and after that, are you physically active?

621
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah? Right now I'm working out with the trainer and

622
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: lifting weights in the gym. It's a combination. I'm working

623
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: with somebody who's a physical fitness trainer as well as

624
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: a physical therapist.

625
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so what point do you pick up the guitar?

626
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:18,600
Speaker 2: When I was twelve ninety sixty five, which is the

627
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: height of the folk music boom, which I was really into.

628
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: And tell me about moving to Mexico.

629
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was my dad received a grant to go

630
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 2: teach in Mexico for a year and live there or

631
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 2: for a year. That's a lot of the reasons we

632
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: were in other countries was he would receive these, you know,

633
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 2: visiting professorship grants. I'm not sure what they were called,

634
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,720
Speaker 2: but some kind of grant to go live in another

635
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 2: country and teach there, work there for the time he

636
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: was there.

637
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 1: And do you speak fluent Spanish?

638
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 2: I can get by. I wouldn't say it was fluid,

639
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 2: but you know, because I forget a lot of my verbs.

640
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 2: If I lived somewhere for a while right now where

641
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,439
Speaker 2: I had to speak Spanish all the time, I would

642
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 2: probably it would improve.

643
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So you get a guitar. Is it a nylon

644
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,800
Speaker 1: string wide necked folk guitar? Is it a narrow string

645
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: steel guitar?

646
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: It's a it's an acoustic, but just a regular steel

647
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: string acoustic guitar from what I understand, from what I remember,

648
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 2: one of my dad's writing friends, his name was Bill Harrison.

649
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 2: He wrote a book called Rollerball, which was made into

650
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: a movie, and another book called Pretty Baby, which was

651
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: made into a movie also, And he was a really

652
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: close old friend of my dad's. And from what I understand,

653
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 2: he had left a guitar. He had this old broken

654
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 2: guitar that he left at the house one day and

655
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 2: I picked it up and just you know, looked at

656
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 2: it and tried to play it a little. My dad

657
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:26,720
Speaker 2: saw me have an interest in it and he bought

658
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: me a Dad ended up buying me a silver tone

659
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: guitar from Sears and Roebuck. That was my first guitar.

660
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: And how did you learn how to play it.

661
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 2: Well, I got dad got me this guy to come

662
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: over once a week who taught guitar lessons, and he

663
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: was he had a rock band in town, and he

664
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: was also a creative writing student. So he had been

665
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 2: he had been at some of my dad's classes, and

666
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 2: I guess they had been talking, and you know, he said, well,

667
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 2: I give guitar lesson. So, you know, my dad arrange

668
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 2: for her to come over the house once a week

669
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 2: and sit with me and give me guitar lessons. And

670
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: it took okay.

671
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:24,320
Speaker 1: So in the mid to late sixties, someone would play

672
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: the guitar. You would go to somebody's house and everybody

673
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: would sit there and would sing. Were you the person

674
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: who would bring the guitar and sing?

675
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was the person who would bring. Or they

676
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 2: would come over our house and we'd be sitting around

677
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: in the living room. My dad would lean over to

678
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: me and say, honey, why don't you go get your

679
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 2: guitar and come sing a couple of songs. He was

680
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 2: real proud of me, and I guess he kind of

681
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: liked to show me off a little bit. And I

682
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 2: would go and get my guitar. You know, it would

683
00:45:58,320 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 2: be in another room of the house, and so I'd

684
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 2: go get it and come back, and so I had

685
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 2: a What that meant was that my first audience was

686
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 2: comprised of these brilliant minds, you know, these writers who

687
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: knew everything there was to know about literature and writing,

688
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 2: and they're listening to me, and you know, I mean

689
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: I was still developing, trying to find my voice. And

690
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 2: what I remember at the very beginning was, you know,

691
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: people coming over to me and saying, kind of patting

692
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 2: my shoulder, is saying, you know, telling me I had soul,

693
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: which basically meant I wasn't there yet, but keep going

694
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 2: because there was something there. You know, they could hear

695
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: something in there, even though I hadn't perfected it yet.

696
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 2: I mean, I certainly wasn't joined by Azer Judy Collins.

697
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: What's the difference between Louisiana and Arkansas, Baton Rouge and Fayetteville.

698
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: That is such a good question. I wish more people

699
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 2: would ask questions like that, because you know, a lot

700
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 2: of people think the South is it's all the same

701
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,640
Speaker 2: in the South, and that's so not true. It's probably

702
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,720
Speaker 2: similar to like I want I might ask or wonder,

703
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:41,479
Speaker 2: what's the difference between Maryland and Connecticut or something like that.

704
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 2: You know, well, the food would be, you know, the

705
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 2: food that was the history of food that you know.

706
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: I mean, these are modern times now, so you might

707
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 2: not find this true now, but like back in the

708
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: fifties and sixties, you could probably find more of a

709
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 2: difference between the states. But I mean that's true everywhere.

710
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 2: I think. Now, you know, things have become more homogenized,

711
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 2: and you know, like the strip malls across America and

712
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. Those have taken over. So now

713
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: you can't tell the difference as much. But back when

714
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,439
Speaker 2: you had the mom and pop stores and the mom

715
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,719
Speaker 2: and pop cafes and restaurants, that's when you would be

716
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: able to tell the difference more. Probably like Louisiana, you

717
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 2: would find more seafood and shell fish dishes that kind

718
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: of thing. You know. Well, it's because of the Cajun influence,

719
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 2: the Creole influence.

720
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: And what was Faydeville like, And.

721
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: It was a beautiful, almost ideal with little town sitting

722
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: in the Ozarks, an incredibly beautiful area the Ozark Mountains,

723
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:18,959
Speaker 2: you know, and the campus was a beautiful campus, very

724
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: progressive town. Like if you were going to live in Arkansas,

725
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: you would want to live in Fayetteville, probably because politically

726
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: it was more progressive than the rest of the state.

727
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: You know, Bill Clinton was from Arkansas and he and

728
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:39,760
Speaker 2: my dad got to be friends.

729
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: When did they become friends winning Bill's.

730
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 2: Career, well, probably during the time I think when he

731
00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: was governor and at a certain point then during that

732
00:49:52,960 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: time and and you know, there have been some really

733
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 2: talented famous people from Arkansas at Glenn Campbell and the

734
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 2: people there are just really cool, friendly. It seems to

735
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,600
Speaker 2: be a creative bunch. But that might be because I was,

736
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 2: you know, we were my dad was at the university there,

737
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: and it was a college town, and you know, like

738
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 2: most college towns, there are a lot of progressive people

739
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 2: living there or working at the university or students going

740
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 2: to school there. You know, so lots of pot smoking,

741
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: lots of the seventies was a pretty really creative time

742
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 2: to be there. There are a lot of hippies people

743
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: moving there because they could get land pretty cheaply, and

744
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,919
Speaker 2: you know, these the hippie tots would be moving there

745
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 2: and building these little cabins out in the country and

746
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:14,959
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

747
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: You keep on talking about your father's friends. Was he

748
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: the type of person who was collecting friends in the

749
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 1: center of the universe, always had an entourage. What was

750
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:27,600
Speaker 1: that going on?

751
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 2: Yes, he loved he loved to do that. Yeah.

752
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 1: And what was the food like back in the day

753
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: in Arkansas as opposed to Louisiana.

754
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 2: It was probably more well, of course, depending on where

755
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 2: you went, but the native food would have been, you know,

756
00:51:54,040 --> 00:52:04,320
Speaker 2: like country cooking, you know, tam bashed potatoes, black eyed peas,

757
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 2: that sort of thing.

758
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in an era, you're a little young, but

759
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:15,400
Speaker 1: this is when all the racial stuff is happening in

760
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: the South. A lot is happening in Mississippi. Yeah, there's

761
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: a lot happening in Memphis, was just over the river

762
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: from Arkansas. What was your experience with racial unrest and

763
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:32,280
Speaker 1: the quest for equal rights for all?

764
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I remember it being just part

765
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 2: of the culture. There was a white's only sign. I

766
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: remember as when I was in high school. I'd seen

767
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 2: it somewhere on the outside of a shop. It said

768
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: whites only, or you know, you would see that from

769
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 2: time to time. And my boyfriend and I jumped at

770
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: our bicules and rode over there was spray spray painted

771
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 2: over it. And my high school was I was very

772
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:17,760
Speaker 2: active as a teenager protest movements and marches and demonstrations

773
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: and all of that. I jumped into all of that

774
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 2: with great fervor. And my high school. A couple of

775
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 2: times I showed up at school and the kids would

776
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 2: be marching around the school as a protest. It was

777
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 2: almost like the union or it was almost like a

778
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 2: picket line where you didn't want to cross through, you know.

779
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: Okay. I was living in Connecticut at that particular time,

780
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: and there was a lot big social movement. We were protesting,

781
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 1: and there were people on the other side, but we

782
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: get the impression as you went down South, the people

783
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,280
Speaker 1: on the other side had more fervor, were more pissed

784
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: about the people who were progressive. Is that true?

785
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: You mean the people who are the racist people?

786
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the people who didn't like you protesting.

787
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: Oh you mean racist rednecks in the South. Yes, go

788
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: ahead and say it, go ahead and say that's okay.

789
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: So what was it like being you know, you're a

790
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: big liberal protesting against the war and for women's rights, etc.

791
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 1: What are the racist rednecks have to say about that?

792
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 2: They weren't real happy, just like you said. I think

793
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 2: that was a global issue, you know, at the time.

794
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 1: So you moved to Mexico with your father, and you

795
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: don't go to school, no.

796
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,719
Speaker 2: Because I couldn't. I'd been keep out of school for

797
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:08,279
Speaker 2: being involved in these demonstrations in Marshes and as a

798
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: form of protest. One morning in school, I refused to

799
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 2: save the pledge of allegiance because we're in Vietnam, and

800
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: I was kicked. They added that to my suspension and

801
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 2: I went home and my dad said, that's okay, honey,

802
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:31,440
Speaker 2: We'll get you an ACLU lawyer, you know, and he did,

803
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 2: and it proved to be unconstitutional. So I got let

804
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: back in school. But because i'd been suspended or expelled,

805
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: I didn't have my pay proper paperwork to be able

806
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:48,200
Speaker 2: to get into school in Mexico. So I was just

807
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,600
Speaker 2: out of school the entire year that I would have

808
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 2: been a senior in high school. And I just read.

809
00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 2: I became a voracious reader, and you know, listen to

810
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 2: my records and play guitar and learned songs and I

811
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 2: was very productive actually during that year out of school.

812
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: So are you still a big reader today?

813
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,359
Speaker 2: Probably? Not as much, because I had so much more

814
00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 2: free time back then than I do now. It's usually

815
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 2: now a toss up between reading or working on a song.

816
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you're in Mexico. This is when you first start

817
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,800
Speaker 1: to play out. Yeah, how did that happen?

818
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: Well, that was me sitting in the living room performing

819
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 2: with There was a friend of the families who his

820
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 2: name was Clark Jones, who we'd met in Arkansas, or

821
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 2: meeting in New Orleans when we were living there, and

822
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: I think he was a friend of my mother's in

823
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 2: the beginning. And he was a folk, a bonafide folk,

824
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 2: and he's sort of reminded me of somebody like Pete Seeger.

825
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: He could play multiple instruments, guitar, ukulele, auto harp, and

826
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: he knew all these old folk songs, the traditional folk songs,

827
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 2: and so we would sit around and play music in

828
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 2: the house. And he came to visit us in Mexico

829
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: and we were performing in the living room for friends

830
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: of the families, friends of my dad's. One of the

831
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 2: guys who was over at the house at night worked

832
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: for the State Department, and Clark and I sat and

833
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: sang some songs and the State department. Guy said to

834
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 2: my dad, Wow, this sounds pretty they sound pretty good.

835
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 2: What if we I've got an idea, why don't we?

836
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 2: Min Or and I try to get set up some

837
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 2: shows for them to perform around Mexico at different schools

838
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 2: and places. And he figured it would be a good

839
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,080
Speaker 2: you know, like an ambassadorship kind of, you know, a

840
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 2: good way to improved the relationship between the United States

841
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 2: and Mexico. And so that's what we did. So Clark

842
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 2: drove his little car and I sat in the front seat,

843
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 2: and we stayed in motels and roadside ends and you know,

844
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: and did these shows as a duo Clark Jones. They

845
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 2: called me Cindy Williams back then, and the Mexican audience

846
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 2: just loved it. They just ate it up. We did

847
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan songs at Peter Paul and Mary and I

848
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 2: wasn't really riding at that time.

849
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: And you were living in Mexico where you're smoking dope.

850
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to help meet with these kids in

851
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 2: the park not too far from our house, and these

852
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 2: Mexican hippie kids smoke pot and they would always try

853
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: to get me to go to Wahaka for the mushrooms,

854
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 2: you know, they would say, come on, Tony was you know,

855
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 2: we have to go to Wahaca for the mushrooms. And

856
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 2: there was this one guy who I was attracted to,

857
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 2: and he kept saying he wanted to tenero sexel qiero sexel,

858
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,720
Speaker 2: I want to have sex. And you know, I knew

859
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: what that meant at the time, but it wasn't going

860
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 2: to happen. And my dad found out I was smoking

861
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 2: pot in the park and he got upset, not because

862
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: of the pot, but he said, you know, I could

863
01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 2: get deported and lose my job and it would just

864
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 2: mess everything up. And he was more comfortable with me

865
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 2: staying at home doing these things, you know, drinking and

866
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: smoking pot or whatever.

867
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,000
Speaker 1: You come back from Mexico, you finish high school, you

868
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: go to college for like ten minutes, and you drop out.

869
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: In the book you say that your father says, it's okay.

870
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, on the surface, your father's an academic. Both

871
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: your parents are college graduates. What do they say about

872
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 1: their oldest daughter says no way.

873
01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, my dad was very patient and empathetic when

874
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 2: it came to grades. When I was in high school,

875
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: for instance, I didn't do well in math I did.

876
01:00:54,640 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 2: I did well in languages. Not good with numbers, good

877
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 2: with language, you know. And he was saying, well, that's okay.

878
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 2: As long as I was good in certain things, as

879
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 2: long as I was thriving in certain subjects, he was okay.

880
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 2: He didn't expect me to be one hundred percent with everything,

881
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: and he just he understood. He just got things, he understood.

882
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 2: That's why one reason I loved it and looked up

883
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 2: to him so much. This I'm not sure about. I'm

884
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 2: not sure when you were talking about when I went

885
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 2: to college for ten minutes.

886
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it sounds like from one of the

887
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 1: book that you went for like a semester and then

888
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: you went dropped out, went to New Orleans.

889
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:48,720
Speaker 2: Something like that. Yeah. I went for about a year

890
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 2: to the University of Arkansas, and then at mid semester,

891
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 2: I went and visited my mother in New Orleans, and

892
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 2: I was offered this job and a little little place

893
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: called Andy's on Bourbon Street. And that was when I

894
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 2: called my dad and I was supposed to go back

895
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 2: to school in the fall. This would have been in

896
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 2: the summer, but I wanted to stay in New Orleans

897
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 2: and play music at this little place for tips instead

898
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 2: of going back to school. And he said, okay, he

899
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: just got it. He understood because he was an artist also,

900
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 2: he was a poet.

901
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:42,040
Speaker 1: When did you have the inspiration that you would be

902
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: a professional musician, that you wanted to be an artist?

903
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there was the time when I wanted to

904
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 2: be the feeling of I want to do this, and

905
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: then there was I'm actually going to make this happen

906
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 2: or this is actually going to happen. You know, those

907
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:01,840
Speaker 2: were two different times.

908
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: Well, tell me about those two times.

909
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 2: Well, the first time was when I was twelve or

910
01:03:09,520 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: twelve and a half and I heard Highway sixty one

911
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 2: were visited for the first time, which was also the

912
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 2: first time I heard Bob Dylan, and it, you know,

913
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 2: just rearranged my brain cells. I didn't understand all the

914
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 2: lyrics at the time, but it didn't matter. You know.

915
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 2: It had an effect on me in a big way,

916
01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: and I decided at that point that I wanted to

917
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 2: be able to write songs like that and do what

918
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 2: he was doing. And what I saw him doing was

919
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 2: taking basically taking something like poetry and setting it to

920
01:03:55,040 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: folk rock music. And I just the comment of those

921
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: two things just completely blew my mind and I understood

922
01:04:06,920 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 2: it on some level, even though it was only twelve,

923
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 2: but I understood what he was doing artistically musically, and

924
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 2: it really appealed to me.

925
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: So that was the inspiration. When did you say this

926
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: is a direction I'm going to go?

927
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:31,720
Speaker 2: That was the same time. That was the inspiration and

928
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: the direction I wanted to go.

929
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: So when you're in New Orleans playing for tips, what's

930
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: going through your mind in terms of your career?

931
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 2: Probably that you know, I was playing performing by myself,

932
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 2: accompanying myself on guitar that maybe, you know, wouldn't it

933
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 2: be great if I had a band like Bob Dylan

934
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,560
Speaker 2: had or something like that, you know, Or wouldn't it

935
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 2: be great if people were listening instead of talking in

936
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 2: the audience. And then over time, you know, that happened.

937
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 2: I put a band together, and then you know, I

938
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 2: remember the first time I performed somewhere when people actually

939
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 2: knew who I was and listened.

940
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:19,080
Speaker 1: And when was that?

941
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 2: Probably the eighties, sometime like maybe after that Reugh Trade

942
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 2: album came out.

943
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,919
Speaker 1: So that was a long time where they weren't listening. Yeah,

944
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: tell us about making the two Folk wse albums.

945
01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, those were that was almost a well. I remember

946
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,400
Speaker 2: there was a friend of mine who had met in

947
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: New Orleans by the name of Jeff Ampulsk, and he

948
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:53,560
Speaker 2: had recorded an album. He was a singer songwriter, you know,

949
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:58,040
Speaker 2: not known or anything. He was just getting started and

950
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 2: he had made an album for Folkways, and he and

951
01:06:01,800 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 2: I were talking on the phone one day. I was

952
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:08,280
Speaker 2: at my dad's house in Fayetteville and Jeff and I

953
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 2: were on the phone and he said, you know, you

954
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 2: could probably make a record for folk Ways. And I said, really,

955
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,800
Speaker 2: you think so? And he said, yeah, I just send

956
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 2: him a cassette tape and I bet they'll like it

957
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 2: and they'll make a record with you. And I said okay.

958
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 2: So he gave me their information and I made a

959
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 2: little cassette tape of songs and sent it to Moe

960
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 2: Ash at folk Ways Records, and sure enough they sent

961
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: me back a one page contract and a check for

962
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty dollars, and I managed to, with

963
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 2: the help of some friends, managed to scrape together some

964
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 2: studio time at Malaco Studios in Jackson, Mississippi. Because my

965
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 2: dad had a close friend who had connects there. He

966
01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: helped make that happen. So I went down there and

967
01:07:07,040 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 2: recorded my first album, which was called Rambling on my Mind.

968
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: After that Bob d I mean after that Robert Johnson's song,

969
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 2: and I went in one afternoon just with another guy

970
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 2: named John Grimauda who is from Houston, Texas. He played

971
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: really good blues guitar and he played he accompanied me

972
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 2: on on the songs.

973
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: So you have finished the tape, you sent it to

974
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 1: folk Way's Records. If you went to your local record store,

975
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: did they have it.

976
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 2: Well, eventually they did. You know, if they carried records

977
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 2: like that, yeah, they would have it. The independent record

978
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,400
Speaker 2: stores would have it usually.

979
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: Well, did you feel any buzz from having made that record.

980
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:05,400
Speaker 2: Just locally? You know, maybe locally and regionally around you

981
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 2: know where I was, where I would be playing live.

982
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 2: Eventually I moved to Austin, Texas, and I lived in

983
01:08:13,280 --> 01:08:16,400
Speaker 2: Austin and Houston for a number of years, and that's

984
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 2: where I would have felt that little buzz, just on

985
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:20,839
Speaker 2: that level.

986
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:26,400
Speaker 1: So you go to New York. You have these two guys,

987
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: they put up money for a demo. No one wants

988
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: to make a record with you, and you know, do

989
01:08:33,720 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: you ever think man, I'm gonna hang it up.

990
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 2: It crossed my mind, but I didn't want to. I

991
01:08:40,520 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 2: just I don't know. I guess I was, well, I

992
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 2: see expression fool hardy and something fancy free and fool

993
01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:53,160
Speaker 2: hardy or something, you know. I just I felt like

994
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,640
Speaker 2: it was going to happen at some point because I

995
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 2: had all these people around me encouraging me a lot,

996
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 2: and that kept me going.

997
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, you're working minimum wage jobs. Yeah, minimum wage jobs

998
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:10,560
Speaker 1: are not that fun.

999
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:15,200
Speaker 2: No, But you know, every other musician I knew was

1000
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 2: working those kind of jobs, and it just came with

1001
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 2: the you know, it's part of the package. That's just

1002
01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 2: what you have to do.

1003
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 1: So you weren't saying I'd like to have a house

1004
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,840
Speaker 1: a new car. You were saying, this is what I'm doing.

1005
01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was probably thinking that in the

1006
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:38,760
Speaker 2: back of my mind.

1007
01:09:41,320 --> 01:09:46,320
Speaker 1: And then tell us about moving to La.

1008
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:50,400
Speaker 2: Well, I had some close friends who were real supportive

1009
01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 2: of me and my music, and one of them was

1010
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 2: trying to become a manager in the music business. See,

1011
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,639
Speaker 2: he actually ended up working with me for a little

1012
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:08,760
Speaker 2: bit and he encouraged me to come out there. You know,

1013
01:10:08,800 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 2: I think I just went initially went out there to play.

1014
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 2: He helped set up a gig for me out there,

1015
01:10:17,880 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 2: But in the back of my mind, I think I

1016
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 2: was thinking I was probably gonna stay. I didn't know

1017
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,679
Speaker 2: for sure, but I went out there and I actually

1018
01:10:25,840 --> 01:10:30,600
Speaker 2: liked it a lot. I like the people on that

1019
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,759
Speaker 2: I like the weather. Of course, everybody says that it's true,

1020
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 2: but the music scene was really viable and exciting. I

1021
01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:43,679
Speaker 2: felt like there are a lot of great artists playing

1022
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 2: around the city at that time, like Dave Alvin and

1023
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:52,360
Speaker 2: the Blasters, and you know, the local music scene was

1024
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:57,160
Speaker 2: just fabulous at that time in Houston, and it was

1025
01:10:57,400 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 2: very eclectic. You know, there were these different kinds of

1026
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 2: music that were blending together, and bands like The Lonesome

1027
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:14,919
Speaker 2: Strangers who played a hybrid of you know, a hybrid

1028
01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:19,680
Speaker 2: version of country and punk. They used to call it cowpunk.

1029
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 2: You know. It's kind of like country music sped up

1030
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 2: real fast, and I would open shows for those guys sometimes,

1031
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 2: and you know, Rosie Flores was getting going, you know,

1032
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,759
Speaker 2: she was creating a pretty good buzz, and Dwight Yoakum

1033
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 2: was getting ready to hit really big at that time,

1034
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:47,080
Speaker 2: and then there were all these other like on the

1035
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 2: fringe kind of rock bands like Grin on Red and

1036
01:11:50,920 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 2: Blood on the Saddle, and they were kind of pump

1037
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 2: based roots like roots of music mixed with punk kind

1038
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:05,000
Speaker 2: of well punk Israeli roots music initially. But you know,

1039
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:09,280
Speaker 2: so that was going on a lot back then, So

1040
01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 2: there was an openness happening in that scene that it

1041
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 2: really appealed to me, and a lot of places to play.

1042
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 1: Okay, just to be clear, you said, you said, you

1043
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 1: mean lost. This is all happening in Los Angeles. But

1044
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 1: the late seventies early eighties, there's a ton of bands,

1045
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 1: all the acts you mentioned, and there's a thin layer

1046
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: that gets signed and then the others seemed to work

1047
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:42,080
Speaker 1: for a while and then spread apart, but you don't

1048
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: get a deal, right, How depressing is yeah?

1049
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:52,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's interesting because that hybrid

1050
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 2: thing that I was talking about also could have applied

1051
01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 2: to me because I was met sing country with rock,

1052
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 2: you know, but or they said, actually I fell on

1053
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 2: the cracks between country and rock, and you know, they

1054
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:10,040
Speaker 2: didn't know what to.

1055
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 1: Do with that, you know, And you mentioned this in

1056
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:16,439
Speaker 1: the book that the record company people are full of

1057
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:19,200
Speaker 1: shit and don't know what's going on. But did you

1058
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: ever sit at home and say, I know what they're

1059
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:23,679
Speaker 1: looking for. I'm going to write a hit, and that'll

1060
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: get my foot in the door.

1061
01:13:26,240 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 2: You know, that's just it, Bob. I didn't know how

1062
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,080
Speaker 2: to write a hit. I would love to write a

1063
01:13:32,160 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 2: hit song if I could figure out how to do it,

1064
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 2: you know. But no, I didn't think that because I

1065
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:43,720
Speaker 2: was an died in the wool rebel. I think I

1066
01:13:43,760 --> 01:13:45,200
Speaker 2: was probably born a rebel.

1067
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 1: Okay, it's seventy years old. Are you still a rebel?

1068
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 2: Hell?

1069
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:50,160
Speaker 1: Yes?

1070
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 2: Or as they say, hell to the yell?

1071
01:13:56,160 --> 01:14:00,960
Speaker 1: How would that manifest itself at everyday life?

1072
01:14:01,200 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 2: Oh? God, you probably need to talk to people who

1073
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:09,479
Speaker 2: live with me. I don't know. I've just you know,

1074
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 2: the record you have to remember like back then at least,

1075
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 2: and it's still that way, I guess to some degree.

1076
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 2: But you know, there was that feeling of them and us.

1077
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 2: You know, it's like we're the artists. You know, we're

1078
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:28,440
Speaker 2: the creators, we're the magic makers. Those guys are the

1079
01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:34,520
Speaker 2: corporate business makers, and they don't know anything about creativity

1080
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,880
Speaker 2: and art and music or anything, you know, record company people,

1081
01:14:40,240 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 2: you know, they're just it's there was this wall between

1082
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:48,920
Speaker 2: the artists and the record company guys. Which isn't to

1083
01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 2: say that there weren't some really good people in the

1084
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:56,040
Speaker 2: record company business. There were some great ones, and still

1085
01:14:56,080 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 2: are some good ones, but far and few between. You know,

1086
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:06,240
Speaker 2: most of them were thinking about the dollar, not how

1087
01:15:06,360 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 2: creative something or how good something is creatively.

1088
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:15,240
Speaker 1: You know, from my perch at this late date, the

1089
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: artists changed. Where the rebel spirit that you embody and

1090
01:15:20,600 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 1: was in Texas for a few decades, everybody moved to

1091
01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:28,280
Speaker 1: the center. It's almost like politics. It's like, you know,

1092
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,719
Speaker 1: the mainstream Democrat was let me say, like Nixon would

1093
01:15:31,720 --> 01:15:34,240
Speaker 1: be a Democrat today, which is hard to believe.

1094
01:15:35,120 --> 01:15:36,719
Speaker 2: God, that's a scary thought.

1095
01:15:37,479 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 1: All the artists, you know, Yeah, they don't want to

1096
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 1: be too edgy, you know, or else there are people

1097
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: with no talent or complaining and that's all thing unto itself.

1098
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you have to have if you're going to complain,

1099
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:52,080
Speaker 2: you have to have something to bring to the table.

1100
01:15:52,720 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 2: That's the name of that game. You have to have

1101
01:15:55,320 --> 01:15:59,719
Speaker 2: something they want before you can make demands. I figured

1102
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 2: that out out early on.

1103
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:05,120
Speaker 1: You know, So you end up making a record for

1104
01:16:05,400 --> 01:16:09,360
Speaker 1: rough Trade. Yeah, Now, granted it was a different era

1105
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: back then. Today everything's been blown apart. But everybody who

1106
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:18,120
Speaker 1: knew what Rough Trade was, which was basically an English company,

1107
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: would say, if you're playing roots to find music, this

1108
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 1: could be the worst label to ever make a deal with.

1109
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 2: Well you might think that, but they were so much

1110
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 2: more creative based and open minded than any of the

1111
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 2: other labels who were approaching me. You know, most of

1112
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 2: a lot of the labels were who passed on me

1113
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:47,519
Speaker 2: were major labels, but even the really small other labels

1114
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 2: passed on me, like Rounder Records and Rhino Records, which

1115
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:58,840
Speaker 2: was signing people at the time, sugar Hill Records, you know,

1116
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:04,840
Speaker 2: all those small folky, kind of rootsy labels. Except for

1117
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:09,280
Speaker 2: Rough Trade. They were the only ones who basically approached

1118
01:17:09,320 --> 01:17:12,400
Speaker 2: me and said, we like your voice, we like your songs,

1119
01:17:13,200 --> 01:17:16,679
Speaker 2: let's make a record. They'd never seen me perform live before,

1120
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:21,920
Speaker 2: unlike Rounder Records. You came to see me play at

1121
01:17:21,920 --> 01:17:28,400
Speaker 2: this dive bar in La and Hollywood on the fourth

1122
01:17:28,439 --> 01:17:30,800
Speaker 2: of July or something, and I had a bunch of

1123
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:34,160
Speaker 2: the Longwriders guys sitting in with me. You know, it's

1124
01:17:34,200 --> 01:17:40,639
Speaker 2: a drunken, crazy night fourth of July, and they came

1125
01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 2: to see me play, and you know, afterwards I talked

1126
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 2: to him and they said, well, we just don't thinking

1127
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 2: ready to go on the road yet, you know, because

1128
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:58,720
Speaker 2: my stage presence with the band wasn't polished enough. Basically

1129
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: it's rock and roll, man, Come on, god, what happened

1130
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:07,320
Speaker 2: to that? Like you were saying, you know, would that

1131
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 2: have happened back in the day in the sixties?

1132
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 1: You know, when well the sixties, the executives woke up

1133
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 1: and said, we have no fucking idea, and they hired

1134
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,719
Speaker 1: young people the so called my air Quotes label hippie

1135
01:18:21,479 --> 01:18:25,160
Speaker 1: and then then there became so much money in the seventies.

1136
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 1: And then by time this a little bit later, by

1137
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 1: time you hit the Tommy Mottola era at Sony, you know,

1138
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 1: the label head start wearing suits and they think they're

1139
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:35,599
Speaker 1: the stars.

1140
01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:36,639
Speaker 2: Right.

1141
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:41,160
Speaker 1: So, but the Rough Rough Trade album comes out. It

1142
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: is the most successful American act Rough Trade ever has

1143
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:51,120
Speaker 1: And it's not like it explodes, but it becomes a

1144
01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: real cult item, and as years go by, it gets

1145
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,840
Speaker 1: gains even more and more respect. What was it like

1146
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,759
Speaker 1: being the artist in that world?

1147
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 2: It was awesome. It was great. I mean, the reviews

1148
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,479
Speaker 2: were coming in the critics loved it. I was getting

1149
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:12,759
Speaker 2: all this publicity and exposure, you know, for the first time.

1150
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 2: And ANDTRA I mean they were just a great little label.

1151
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:20,880
Speaker 2: You know. They were independent though, and they didn't have

1152
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:29,519
Speaker 2: the of course, the financial you know, they just didn't

1153
01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 2: have the funds that are bigger label would have, so

1154
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 2: certain things they weren't able to do as well, like

1155
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 2: they didn't have as big of a staff, and they

1156
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 2: had trouble getting the albums shipped to record stores. You know,

1157
01:19:44,120 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 2: the record stores wouldn't order enough albums, you know, they

1158
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:52,919
Speaker 2: just order a few, whereas if you're on Sony Records

1159
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, the record stores order

1160
01:19:57,080 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 2: an enormous amount because you know, you're on a big

1161
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 2: label and there's more guarantee they think that it's going

1162
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 2: to sell in the store. You know. So there was

1163
01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:10,320
Speaker 2: there were a few drawbacks like that, but just in

1164
01:20:10,439 --> 01:20:13,080
Speaker 2: terms of the heart and spirit of the label, Rough

1165
01:20:13,080 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 2: Trade was just you know, miles ahead of any of

1166
01:20:17,360 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 2: those other labels at the time. They sent me to

1167
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 2: Europe on tour. I mean, they really invested quite a

1168
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 2: bit in me.

1169
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: Were you making any money or you were famous and broke.

1170
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 2: No famous and broke, so.

1171
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: You sign up, sign, you make a deal with Bob

1172
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:43,679
Speaker 1: Booziak at RCA, he gets squeezed out, then he goes

1173
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:51,639
Speaker 1: to Chameleon Pritzker's label. And how did you feel about

1174
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: that album coming out?

1175
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:58,040
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I loved Bobbyziak. He was one

1176
01:20:58,080 --> 01:21:01,320
Speaker 2: of the good guys, you know, even though he was

1177
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 2: running a big major label RCAA, but he had the

1178
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:10,280
Speaker 2: mentality more of an independent record guy, you know, So

1179
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 2: I felt really good about him, which is basically the

1180
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,600
Speaker 2: only He's the only reason I ever went to RCA

1181
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:19,240
Speaker 2: that had real mixed feelings about it, because I was

1182
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:23,360
Speaker 2: on Rough Trade and RCA, you know, jumped in and

1183
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 2: wanted to sign me. And you know, I didn't want

1184
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 2: to abandon Rough Trade because they had opened the door

1185
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:36,960
Speaker 2: for me when nobody else would. So when that became

1186
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:40,000
Speaker 2: a whole other story. When I went with RCAA. You

1187
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 2: may have heard the story about the A and R guy.

1188
01:21:42,680 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 2: He was appointed to me and when we were we

1189
01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:49,639
Speaker 2: were rehearsing with my band at the time to get

1190
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:54,800
Speaker 2: ready to go in the studio and start the I

1191
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 2: think it was the Sweet Old World album would have

1192
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:03,519
Speaker 2: been the next one, yeah, Yeah, and the A and

1193
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 2: R guy. His name is sorry, I'm gonna say his name,

1194
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:12,160
Speaker 2: Bob booziakran the label. He was in the no I'm sorry, Yeah,

1195
01:22:12,479 --> 01:22:16,400
Speaker 2: Bennett Kaufman was my He was that he had been

1196
01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:19,719
Speaker 2: appointed the head of A and R for the entire

1197
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 2: West coast of the United States, you know. And we're

1198
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:27,600
Speaker 2: in this in rehearsal studio going over the songs with

1199
01:22:27,760 --> 01:22:31,000
Speaker 2: the band and everything, and we started talking about producers

1200
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 2: and I mentioned Bob Johnson, at which point he asked,

1201
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 2: who's Bob Johnson? Well, right there, you know, we've got

1202
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 2: a problem. Who's Bob Johnson? And I said, well, you know,

1203
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:47,599
Speaker 2: he produced Blonde on Blonde And he goes, and I

1204
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 2: swear that I'm serious as a heart attack. He says, oh,

1205
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 2: Blonde don Blonde? Is that a band? And I feel

1206
01:22:57,960 --> 01:22:59,920
Speaker 2: bad when I tell this story in a way because

1207
01:22:59,920 --> 01:23:03,920
Speaker 2: I feel like I just I'm you know, joking at

1208
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:04,840
Speaker 2: his expense.

1209
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 1: But it's very disheartening when they own you.

1210
01:23:09,439 --> 01:23:13,360
Speaker 2: It's very disheartening. And I feel stuck and trapped, and

1211
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:16,719
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Okay, I've got to work with this guy now,

1212
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 2: you know. And it was just I was shocked. We

1213
01:23:21,920 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 2: were all shocked. The guys in the band and I

1214
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:26,599
Speaker 2: just all looked at each other and rolled our eyes, like,

1215
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:31,120
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy's credibility went out the window. You know,

1216
01:23:32,000 --> 01:23:35,400
Speaker 2: I'm never going to be able to communicate with or

1217
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:41,280
Speaker 2: connect with him.

1218
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:44,920
Speaker 1: So ultimately, you make a deal with Rick Rubin. What's

1219
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 1: your take on Rick Rubin?

1220
01:23:49,680 --> 01:23:52,439
Speaker 2: I was a little intimidated by him at the beginning.

1221
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:58,640
Speaker 2: You know, he was a you know, rather large physical presence,

1222
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:05,080
Speaker 2: really long wavy hair and a big, long beard. But

1223
01:24:05,640 --> 01:24:09,439
Speaker 2: he had his sweet nature, very good natured, and I

1224
01:24:09,479 --> 01:24:12,560
Speaker 2: could tell that he respected what I was doing musically.

1225
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 2: And you know, who knows what would have happened had

1226
01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:22,160
Speaker 2: he actually become the producer of my next album. Look

1227
01:24:22,200 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 2: what he did for the Beastie Boys. He invited me

1228
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:28,880
Speaker 2: over to his house into the Hollywood Hills, which was

1229
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 2: massively impressive along just that alone his home there, and

1230
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:39,799
Speaker 2: we sat around in his living room with the stereo

1231
01:24:40,040 --> 01:24:45,600
Speaker 2: system and all these records piled up in CDs, and

1232
01:24:46,680 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 2: he said, I have an album I want to play you,

1233
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:54,599
Speaker 2: and it was PJ. Harvey's. It might have been her

1234
01:24:54,640 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 2: first album, I'm not sure. It was the one that

1235
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:04,600
Speaker 2: The Edge produced. And he's you know, he's this is

1236
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:07,200
Speaker 2: what I have in mind for you kind of that's

1237
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 2: what he told me. I think he got me basically,

1238
01:25:12,920 --> 01:25:18,040
Speaker 2: but I think he also saw more possibilities than had

1239
01:25:18,080 --> 01:25:20,840
Speaker 2: been explored. Maybe.

1240
01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:25,320
Speaker 1: Okay, even when he does produce you, he's a pretty

1241
01:25:25,360 --> 01:25:29,800
Speaker 1: hands off guy. You go into the studio, you send

1242
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,320
Speaker 1: him cassettes. What did he say?

1243
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:37,920
Speaker 2: He said, you know, he liked the direction was going in,

1244
01:25:38,040 --> 01:25:41,439
Speaker 2: but he wanted to it needed at a certain point.

1245
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 2: What started to show up was when we were mixing,

1246
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, that's when he wanted to add keyboards or

1247
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 2: at one point we recorded Drunken Angel, he wanted to

1248
01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,200
Speaker 2: take one of the verses out because it was too long.

1249
01:25:59,760 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 2: Well that was probably because he never explained, you know,

1250
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:07,040
Speaker 2: why is it too long? It was probably too long

1251
01:26:07,080 --> 01:26:11,160
Speaker 2: for the radio for airplay, you know, because they had

1252
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 2: this rule about it can't be longer than whatever it is,

1253
01:26:15,080 --> 01:26:18,360
Speaker 2: you know, two and a half minutes or something. And

1254
01:26:18,400 --> 01:26:20,720
Speaker 2: he wanted me to remove one of the verses, and

1255
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:24,439
Speaker 2: I said, no. See that's the kind of thing. That's

1256
01:26:24,479 --> 01:26:27,639
Speaker 2: where the rebel thing comes in. But it's not really

1257
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:30,840
Speaker 2: it'sn't as much a rebel thing as it is an

1258
01:26:30,960 --> 01:26:34,320
Speaker 2: artistic decision. I'm not going to take a verse out

1259
01:26:34,360 --> 01:26:36,800
Speaker 2: of his song because it needs to be in there.

1260
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,240
Speaker 2: It's part of the story, you know. I don't care

1261
01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:43,840
Speaker 2: if it fits on the radio. Fuck the radio, you know.

1262
01:26:44,240 --> 01:26:48,599
Speaker 2: I mean, so that was me. So he's saying take

1263
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 2: a verse out. I say no, and you know, he

1264
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:55,599
Speaker 2: said okay. At least at least I can give him

1265
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 2: that he didn't force me or anything.

1266
01:27:06,640 --> 01:27:09,360
Speaker 1: Has anybody ever told you what to do when they

1267
01:27:09,400 --> 01:27:09,880
Speaker 1: were right?

1268
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:15,880
Speaker 2: That's a good question too. You're just full of them today,

1269
01:27:16,000 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 2: Bob God, I wish I could remember. Yeah, I've guessed.

1270
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 2: Maybe the good example, as close as example as I

1271
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 2: can get to that would be like maybe I wanted

1272
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,559
Speaker 2: to do a vocal over on a song and was told,

1273
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, you don't need to do this over again.

1274
01:27:42,320 --> 01:27:48,439
Speaker 2: It's fine, it's great, you're singing your ass off, and

1275
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:50,920
Speaker 2: it was, you know, and then I would try to

1276
01:27:50,960 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 2: sing it over, you know, But then I realized, yeah,

1277
01:27:55,080 --> 01:27:58,519
Speaker 2: they're right, it's done. I don't need to try to

1278
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:02,360
Speaker 2: improve it, you know. But the point WHI is and

1279
01:28:02,720 --> 01:28:05,880
Speaker 2: was though that I might maybe I just want to

1280
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 2: try to do it again just for my own satisfaction,

1281
01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:13,559
Speaker 2: and that would be the difference between people. When I

1282
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,479
Speaker 2: was working at the studio, like when I worked with

1283
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:22,680
Speaker 2: Charlie Sexton on the Essence album. We were working on

1284
01:28:22,720 --> 01:28:25,840
Speaker 2: my song Blue and I felt like I could have

1285
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,600
Speaker 2: maybe got I could maybe get a better vocal. So

1286
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:30,840
Speaker 2: I wanted to try to sing it again and he said, well,

1287
01:28:30,840 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 2: I don't think you need to, but if you want

1288
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:36,080
Speaker 2: to go ahead. That was what I wanted someone to say,

1289
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 2: not no, you know, just whatever makes you feel comfortable.

1290
01:28:42,120 --> 01:28:44,080
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's one of the shifts. You know,

1291
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:47,479
Speaker 1: after the sixties and the seventies, the record contracts where

1292
01:28:48,040 --> 01:28:50,679
Speaker 1: we deliver the album. You have to put it out.

1293
01:28:50,720 --> 01:28:53,120
Speaker 1: Whatever it is. Doesn't mean you have to promote it,

1294
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:55,719
Speaker 1: but you have to put it out. Whereas today everybody

1295
01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:58,599
Speaker 1: at the label thinks they're an expert, when if you're

1296
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 1: a true artist, you know, it's a different mentality. So

1297
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 1: you ultimately put out car wheels on a gravel road,

1298
01:29:09,439 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 1: and that really cements your place in the firmament. Yeah,

1299
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:17,280
Speaker 1: the record is done. Did you know that was going

1300
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:17,799
Speaker 1: to happen?

1301
01:29:19,120 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 2: No? I did not know because it was so chaotic

1302
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 2: getting the record. None that you know. I was insecure.

1303
01:29:28,320 --> 01:29:30,439
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure about this. I wasn't sure about that.

1304
01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 2: I was questioning everything. I just hadn't had a whole

1305
01:29:34,320 --> 01:29:37,760
Speaker 2: lot of experience in the studio making records. This is

1306
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:42,360
Speaker 2: what you have to remember, you know, So you know,

1307
01:29:42,479 --> 01:29:45,120
Speaker 2: I was still to me, it was just still this

1308
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 2: amazing process and scary process kind of because whatever goes

1309
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:55,559
Speaker 2: down there is permanent, that's it, you know. And however,

1310
01:29:55,600 --> 01:29:58,880
Speaker 2: many thousands of people are going to hear this, and

1311
01:29:59,400 --> 01:30:01,679
Speaker 2: what if I make a mistake and I can't fix

1312
01:30:01,720 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 2: it or you know, all these kinds of thoughts are

1313
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:07,080
Speaker 2: running through my head. That's probably my part of my

1314
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:10,479
Speaker 2: OCD thing carried over into the studio.

1315
01:30:11,520 --> 01:30:14,200
Speaker 1: Well, that's why I was asking earlier, you know, whether

1316
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:16,680
Speaker 1: you could be satisfied or need to redo it all.

1317
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:17,840
Speaker 1: That's where I was going.

1318
01:30:18,200 --> 01:30:20,920
Speaker 2: Well, I would have a hard time when it came

1319
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:23,320
Speaker 2: to my vocal A lot of times, you know, I

1320
01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:26,000
Speaker 2: would think, oh that I had a flat note there.

1321
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:29,160
Speaker 2: I've got to fix it. You know, the producer or

1322
01:30:29,200 --> 01:30:32,759
Speaker 2: engineer whoever would be saying, no, Lew, it's not flat.

1323
01:30:32,840 --> 01:30:35,400
Speaker 2: It's fine. You just think it's flat. I could I

1324
01:30:35,479 --> 01:30:39,679
Speaker 2: understand why you might think it's flat, but I remember

1325
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:43,519
Speaker 2: my engineer, Dusty Weakeman, when we're working on car wals.

1326
01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 2: At one point he said with Sunday. He says, you

1327
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:52,160
Speaker 2: know the Native American Indians when they would weave a blanket,

1328
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:55,559
Speaker 2: they would leave a mistake in the blanket on purpose,

1329
01:30:56,479 --> 01:31:00,840
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't be perfect, you know. And he used

1330
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 2: that as an analogy to try to get me to

1331
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:07,560
Speaker 2: understand that the idea of imperfection.

1332
01:31:09,360 --> 01:31:12,560
Speaker 1: Well, there are two things there. I think the imperfections

1333
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 1: make the records human. And I could talk a number

1334
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:19,120
Speaker 1: of records the imperfections of what make them great. However,

1335
01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:23,800
Speaker 1: that is classic OCD and is a distorted thought when

1336
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:28,000
Speaker 1: something is okay but you can't settle down with it.

1337
01:31:28,640 --> 01:31:31,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I had that problem in the studio.

1338
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:37,760
Speaker 1: So car Wheels comes out. What's your experience?

1339
01:31:39,200 --> 01:31:42,800
Speaker 2: Well, there were a couple of things on't it. I

1340
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 2: didn't like that. I just spread it over, would listen

1341
01:31:46,000 --> 01:31:49,360
Speaker 2: to and every time I'd just be oh, I hate that.

1342
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:52,200
Speaker 2: Every time it would go by, and I didn't think

1343
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 2: it sounded good. And then over time, of course it

1344
01:31:54,439 --> 01:32:00,600
Speaker 2: didn't bother me. But I was completely in awe and

1345
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:07,000
Speaker 2: shocked when I won that Grammy for Contemporary Best Contemporary

1346
01:32:07,040 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 2: Folk Album. I mean, I was completely I was not

1347
01:32:12,000 --> 01:32:17,240
Speaker 2: expecting that at all. That blew me out of the water.

1348
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:22,479
Speaker 1: Okay. I was talking to my psychiatrist earlier today and

1349
01:32:22,560 --> 01:32:26,479
Speaker 1: he's older than I am, not a hip guy, and

1350
01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:28,880
Speaker 1: I say, yeah, well today I'm doing this podcast with

1351
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 1: Louse send to Williams goes, Oh, he knew who you were.

1352
01:32:32,680 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 1: So that showed that you permeate the culture. Did you?

1353
01:32:37,439 --> 01:32:39,600
Speaker 1: Did you? Did you start to feel that?

1354
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:46,559
Speaker 2: Over time? I started realizing that, you know, something's happening here.

1355
01:32:47,520 --> 01:32:52,959
Speaker 2: You know, people are hearing this record. My name's getting around.

1356
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,719
Speaker 2: You know, the critics loved it. I guess I would

1357
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:04,360
Speaker 2: have been called the critics darling. Yeah, you know, so

1358
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:05,919
Speaker 2: I was lucky in that regard.

1359
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you have the success, you win this Grammy. How

1360
01:33:13,240 --> 01:33:15,600
Speaker 1: hard is it to write songs and go to the

1361
01:33:15,640 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 1: studio next.

1362
01:33:17,400 --> 01:33:23,360
Speaker 2: Ooh it was hard Because now I'm thinking about it

1363
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:27,360
Speaker 2: too much. My mind is running away with me, and

1364
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Okay, they loved Carwell's for these reasons. But

1365
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:35,679
Speaker 2: these particular songs that are all narrative, are the songs

1366
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:39,920
Speaker 2: that were getting the most attention were narrative songs. Those

1367
01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 2: kinds of songs take a lot of work, or these

1368
01:33:42,880 --> 01:33:46,519
Speaker 2: particular ones took a lot of work. Songs like Drunken Angel,

1369
01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 2: late Charles Pintiola, you know, about specific people with really

1370
01:33:53,479 --> 01:33:57,680
Speaker 2: interesting stories behind them, and those are the kind of

1371
01:33:57,760 --> 01:34:01,559
Speaker 2: songs I can just whip up, you know. And a

1372
01:34:01,600 --> 01:34:04,000
Speaker 2: lot of the songs in Rough Trade were written during

1373
01:34:04,080 --> 01:34:07,639
Speaker 2: that down time that I had in silver Lake after

1374
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:11,400
Speaker 2: I'd gotten a development deal with Sony Records, and I

1375
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:14,840
Speaker 2: had time to sit in my apartment silver Lake and

1376
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:19,599
Speaker 2: write songs every day, you know, because I had this

1377
01:34:19,680 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 2: development deal they've given me, which meant, you know, I

1378
01:34:23,479 --> 01:34:27,080
Speaker 2: got to check every month from them. You know, they

1379
01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:30,519
Speaker 2: give you the funds to live on for six months

1380
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 2: or whatever it is, and so you can buy groceries

1381
01:34:34,200 --> 01:34:37,720
Speaker 2: and pay your rent, and you know, to spend that

1382
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:41,280
Speaker 2: time writing working on songs, and then you do a

1383
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:43,680
Speaker 2: demo tape at the end of that period, which I

1384
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:49,040
Speaker 2: did for them, and you know, then they decide if

1385
01:34:49,040 --> 01:34:52,320
Speaker 2: they're going to give you an actual recording deal or

1386
01:34:52,360 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 2: not based on the demo tape that you do when

1387
01:34:56,320 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 2: you have that after you get the development deal. I

1388
01:35:00,320 --> 01:35:03,920
Speaker 2: had done that for Sony Records. This guy Ron Oberman

1389
01:35:05,080 --> 01:35:07,559
Speaker 2: was the A and R guy who pulled me in there,

1390
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,599
Speaker 2: and he was real nice. He was a cool guy.

1391
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:15,680
Speaker 2: But then they passed on me basically after I did

1392
01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:20,519
Speaker 2: the demo tape. This is when that country in Rock

1393
01:35:20,920 --> 01:35:23,720
Speaker 2: division thing started, because I did that demo tape for

1394
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 2: Sony in LA, and Sony in LA said it was

1395
01:35:28,479 --> 01:35:31,439
Speaker 2: too country for rock, so they sent it to Sony

1396
01:35:31,479 --> 01:35:34,200
Speaker 2: in Nashville, who said it was too rock for country.

1397
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 1: In any event, you didn't get a deal. So how

1398
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:39,559
Speaker 1: did you feel?

1399
01:35:41,400 --> 01:35:45,280
Speaker 2: Really disappointed? Because when I first got the development deal,

1400
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 2: I thought, well, this is a done deal. You know,

1401
01:35:47,439 --> 01:35:49,599
Speaker 2: they're gonna sign me. I'm going to make a record

1402
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:51,840
Speaker 2: for Sony Records. I'm not going to have to I'm

1403
01:35:51,840 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 2: going to be able to quit my day jobs, and

1404
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:56,920
Speaker 2: this is gonna be great. And I was on Cloud

1405
01:35:57,040 --> 01:36:01,320
Speaker 2: nine and you know, I did the demo tape. Fantastic

1406
01:36:01,400 --> 01:36:05,320
Speaker 2: musicians on that demo tape. Some of the guys from

1407
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:12,880
Speaker 2: NRBQ played on it. David Mansfield, the keyboard player from NRBQ,

1408
01:36:14,320 --> 01:36:16,880
Speaker 2: was on it, and some other really good people, and

1409
01:36:18,560 --> 01:36:22,280
Speaker 2: you know, I just thought there was this whirlwind of

1410
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:26,439
Speaker 2: activity and it felt real positive, and you know then

1411
01:36:26,479 --> 01:36:31,240
Speaker 2: when they decided no, because you know, it's that classic

1412
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:36,519
Speaker 2: thing where Ron Oberman was. He wanted to do it,

1413
01:36:36,560 --> 01:36:38,719
Speaker 2: but then he had to convince the rest of the label.

1414
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:42,360
Speaker 2: You know, that's where the business, that's where the numbers

1415
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,320
Speaker 2: guys come in. You know, well, what is this. We're

1416
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:48,840
Speaker 2: not sure how to market it? You know, then you

1417
01:36:48,960 --> 01:36:53,000
Speaker 2: become a product like that. They're trying to market and

1418
01:36:53,040 --> 01:36:55,599
Speaker 2: they have these meetings and the men in suits come

1419
01:36:55,720 --> 01:37:00,840
Speaker 2: and they start talking numbers. And that's when I decided no.

1420
01:37:03,720 --> 01:37:06,840
Speaker 1: Okay, let's jump forward. We got into this story because

1421
01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 1: you're saying songs like Lake Charles, you can't write in

1422
01:37:11,200 --> 01:37:13,320
Speaker 1: a day, but you have to make another album.

1423
01:37:14,760 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I managed to come up with the songs.

1424
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 2: But even Sweet O'd World. I remember we went in

1425
01:37:23,280 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 2: and we cut a bunch of stuff, and I'm you know,

1426
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:30,240
Speaker 2: I was comparing everything to car Wheels already, and I

1427
01:37:30,320 --> 01:37:34,599
Speaker 2: was terrified. You know, I said, I felt stuck because

1428
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:37,639
Speaker 2: I felt like, whatever album I make after car Wheels,

1429
01:37:37,680 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 2: people are gonna compare it to car wheels. It's they're

1430
01:37:40,960 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 2: either gonna say it sounds the same as car wheels,

1431
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,440
Speaker 2: or they're gonna say it's not as good as Car Wheels.

1432
01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:51,280
Speaker 2: So I felt like I couldn't win for losing, and

1433
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:54,160
Speaker 2: we cut some stuff for Sweet O'.

1434
01:37:54,000 --> 01:37:56,280
Speaker 1: World and I think we're at Essence now.

1435
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 2: Okay, wait, I'm sorry now the it wasn't Sweet Old

1436
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:03,360
Speaker 2: World right after Carl Willers.

1437
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:08,360
Speaker 1: Sweet Ol'd World was before Car Wheels. Then came Essence.

1438
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:11,520
Speaker 1: Sweet Old World was after the Rough Trade record.

1439
01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:16,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's what I'm thinking that and that was hard.

1440
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:19,240
Speaker 1: To Okay, so you had a hard time following up

1441
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 1: the Rough Trade record? Yeah, tell me about the hard

1442
01:38:22,920 --> 01:38:25,080
Speaker 1: time following up Car Wheels.

1443
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:30,519
Speaker 2: Well, it was, you know, similar issue where because Car

1444
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,439
Speaker 2: Wills was so successful, I felt like it was going

1445
01:38:34,479 --> 01:38:37,880
Speaker 2: to everything was going to be compared to it, so

1446
01:38:38,000 --> 01:38:41,599
Speaker 2: the songs had to be as good or better on

1447
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:42,519
Speaker 2: the next record.

1448
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:48,080
Speaker 1: You was talking your book about changing your writing style.

1449
01:38:49,760 --> 01:38:54,839
Speaker 2: Well, I started. I was working on songs for Essence,

1450
01:38:54,880 --> 01:38:58,799
Speaker 2: and I was coming up with these songs that weren't

1451
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:04,080
Speaker 2: really lashed out lyrically that much, but the music was

1452
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:07,320
Speaker 2: really cool, and I thought, you know, is this going

1453
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:09,439
Speaker 2: to be okay to do? Can I get away with this?

1454
01:39:09,600 --> 01:39:14,559
Speaker 2: Because before that my songs were you know, like I said,

1455
01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:21,559
Speaker 2: a lot of narrative lyrics and you know, it's paying

1456
01:39:21,600 --> 01:39:25,160
Speaker 2: a lot of attention to the lyrics. And I was

1457
01:39:25,200 --> 01:39:29,519
Speaker 2: still doing that. But what really helped me was at

1458
01:39:29,560 --> 01:39:32,280
Speaker 2: the time Bob Dylan's album Time out of Mind had

1459
01:39:32,280 --> 01:39:36,679
Speaker 2: come out, that Rick Rubin had done, and I listened

1460
01:39:36,720 --> 01:39:39,080
Speaker 2: to it and loved it, and I felt like, this

1461
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:42,479
Speaker 2: is so musical. It's such a musical album, you know,

1462
01:39:42,520 --> 01:39:47,759
Speaker 2: it's different than most of his other records. And in fact,

1463
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:51,439
Speaker 2: the Nashville Paper gave it a bad review because they

1464
01:39:51,479 --> 01:39:56,760
Speaker 2: said the lyrics weren't up to Bob Dylan quality, you know.

1465
01:39:57,520 --> 01:40:00,160
Speaker 2: But the way I felt about it was that he

1466
01:40:00,240 --> 01:40:05,639
Speaker 2: was stretching out a little bit and letting the music talk.

1467
01:40:08,840 --> 01:40:12,400
Speaker 2: You know, I'd always want. I loved the stuff that

1468
01:40:12,439 --> 01:40:15,800
Speaker 2: I loved that I was listening to was talking heads.

1469
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:22,840
Speaker 2: I loved them because great lyrics, but the music, you know,

1470
01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:28,520
Speaker 2: which supported the lyrics. And I mean, I love good

1471
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:35,120
Speaker 2: I love rock music, you know, I love beats, I

1472
01:40:35,160 --> 01:40:39,200
Speaker 2: love hip hop. One of my favorite artists is this

1473
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 2: guy Atmosphere out of Minneapolis, who I just absolutely love.

1474
01:40:47,200 --> 01:40:50,840
Speaker 2: He's a great writer, he's a great lyricist, and his

1475
01:40:51,040 --> 01:40:56,639
Speaker 2: music is just infectious, you know. It's a similar thing

1476
01:40:56,800 --> 01:40:59,200
Speaker 2: to what Bob Dylan was doing when he first won

1477
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 2: an electric you know, I love that kind of stuff.

1478
01:41:04,800 --> 01:41:07,920
Speaker 2: I've always been drawn to it. I love Thievery Corporation

1479
01:41:09,200 --> 01:41:13,799
Speaker 2: because they do that, you know, Marching the Hate Machines

1480
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:17,240
Speaker 2: into the Sun, the song they co wrote with Wayne

1481
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 2: Korn from Flaming Lips. So I love that combination of

1482
01:41:24,240 --> 01:41:30,240
Speaker 2: the you know, really interesting, well written lyrics, but infectious

1483
01:41:30,920 --> 01:41:34,280
Speaker 2: you know, hip hoppy rock music behind it.

1484
01:41:35,560 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 1: Okay for someone who got a lite start, had all

1485
01:41:39,240 --> 01:41:43,640
Speaker 1: sorts of issues going from label to label. In the

1486
01:41:43,680 --> 01:41:46,960
Speaker 1: last twenty years, you put on more records than anybody

1487
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:51,559
Speaker 1: of your stature, so you just hit a groove. What

1488
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 1: accounts for that?

1489
01:41:55,439 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I signed ended up signing with Lost Highway,

1490
01:42:00,560 --> 01:42:03,599
Speaker 2: and you know, so when you signed with a label,

1491
01:42:03,640 --> 01:42:06,640
Speaker 2: you have a contract. You have to give them so

1492
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:11,439
Speaker 2: many a certain amount of recordings, you know, that year

1493
01:42:12,040 --> 01:42:14,680
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. So that was part of it,

1494
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:19,240
Speaker 2: just the and when I was on Lost Highway, I

1495
01:42:19,240 --> 01:42:24,240
Speaker 2: felt like I'd finally found my family to a large extent,

1496
01:42:24,400 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 2: you know, just absolutely adored Rick or not Rick Luke

1497
01:42:28,920 --> 01:42:35,599
Speaker 2: Lewis just loved working with him, you know, he put

1498
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:39,559
Speaker 2: his money where his mouth was and walk the walk

1499
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:42,880
Speaker 2: and talk the talk, and you know, he was a

1500
01:42:43,000 --> 01:42:43,879
Speaker 2: musical Ever.

1501
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:50,759
Speaker 1: Well, he ultimately, you know, gets pushed aside. The label

1502
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:56,120
Speaker 1: closes and you continue to make records independently distributed by

1503
01:42:56,120 --> 01:43:00,240
Speaker 1: thirty tigers, so you know it's yeah, you might have ant,

1504
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 1: but now you have no contract, you're still making the records.

1505
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,160
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of that I have to owe to

1506
01:43:08,240 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 2: my husband, manager Tom, who is always coming up with ideas.

1507
01:43:15,640 --> 01:43:18,960
Speaker 2: He worked at record labels for a number of years.

1508
01:43:19,080 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 2: He used to work for Best Buy, and so he

1509
01:43:22,320 --> 01:43:26,479
Speaker 2: has that. He's that capability of he's got the business

1510
01:43:26,479 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 2: sense and the creative sense combined. So he's the one.

1511
01:43:31,479 --> 01:43:34,160
Speaker 2: Like one of the things I did were those jukebox

1512
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:39,559
Speaker 2: you know, the jukebox recordings, an idea that Tom came

1513
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:45,360
Speaker 2: up with. Basically, we're, you know, just in between record albums,

1514
01:43:45,400 --> 01:43:48,839
Speaker 2: and I was talking about sons I loved by other people,

1515
01:43:49,600 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 2: and he said, well, why don't we go in and

1516
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:56,559
Speaker 2: record some of those? So we would. He would say,

1517
01:43:57,200 --> 01:44:01,600
Speaker 2: you know, pick your favorite Bob del songs, whoever it

1518
01:44:01,680 --> 01:44:04,920
Speaker 2: might be, Tom Petty, and we go in. We went

1519
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:08,759
Speaker 2: in and worked him up with the band and recorded

1520
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 2: on them and we ended up getting a couple of

1521
01:44:10,920 --> 01:44:15,439
Speaker 2: filmmaker guys photographers to come in and document it in

1522
01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:20,800
Speaker 2: the studio and you know, people saw it and heard

1523
01:44:20,840 --> 01:44:23,599
Speaker 2: it and loved it. And then Tom got the idea

1524
01:44:23,680 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 2: to you know, put it on make it available online.

1525
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:30,680
Speaker 2: They could downstream it or whatever it's called, you know,

1526
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:35,320
Speaker 2: and we jumped on that wagon, you know, that bandwagon,

1527
01:44:35,400 --> 01:44:39,920
Speaker 2: the social media thing with it, and you know, it

1528
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:45,559
Speaker 2: took off and you know, so that was an idea

1529
01:44:45,600 --> 01:44:48,479
Speaker 2: that Tom had come up with to fill the gap

1530
01:44:50,280 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 2: in between records.

1531
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:54,640
Speaker 1: Well does he ever come up with an idea and

1532
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:56,519
Speaker 1: you say, no, not going to do that?

1533
01:44:58,080 --> 01:45:02,040
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, you know, then we talk about it and.

1534
01:45:03,200 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 1: So when in this equation do you start making any money?

1535
01:45:08,320 --> 01:45:14,400
Speaker 2: Huh that's a good question too. Uh. I remember telling

1536
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:17,080
Speaker 2: Tom at one point recently, like when am I going

1537
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:20,280
Speaker 2: to start seeing the results of the fruits of my labor?

1538
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:23,599
Speaker 2: You know, like you hear about you know, all these

1539
01:45:23,720 --> 01:45:26,040
Speaker 2: rock bands who get famous and they have all these

1540
01:45:26,080 --> 01:45:32,599
Speaker 2: cars and multiple houses and all this stuff, and you know,

1541
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:36,040
Speaker 2: it's not like that because you know, you have to

1542
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:42,480
Speaker 2: pay taxes first of all, which is true for every American.

1543
01:45:42,920 --> 01:45:45,200
Speaker 2: But the more money you make, the more taxes you

1544
01:45:45,240 --> 01:45:50,800
Speaker 2: have to pay. So I mean you still have to

1545
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:54,920
Speaker 2: watch your spending and all of that. It's just on

1546
01:45:55,000 --> 01:45:56,880
Speaker 2: a different level. I guess.

1547
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:02,520
Speaker 1: Well, do you ever go I'm wear and say too expensive,

1548
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:03,240
Speaker 1: not going to pay?

1549
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:10,479
Speaker 2: Tom will say that sometimes, but usually once if we

1550
01:46:10,560 --> 01:46:12,880
Speaker 2: go to the trouble you mean, like a nice restaurant

1551
01:46:12,960 --> 01:46:13,400
Speaker 2: or something.

1552
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:14,759
Speaker 1: So that could be a good example.

1553
01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:18,360
Speaker 2: Yoh, yeah, we won't go. If he thinks it's going

1554
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:20,519
Speaker 2: to be too expensive, then we just go somewhere else,

1555
01:46:22,000 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 2: you know. And I would give him a hard time anyway,

1556
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:27,479
Speaker 2: if he would know better than to say that.

1557
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:32,840
Speaker 1: And do you have any personal extravagance something you do

1558
01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:34,760
Speaker 1: or something you own or somewhere you go?

1559
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 2: Hmmm, probably like what you were talking about before. I

1560
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:48,880
Speaker 2: like to shop on line. I love buying. I probably

1561
01:46:48,880 --> 01:46:54,280
Speaker 2: shouldn't go into office supply stores. I love buying. I

1562
01:46:54,360 --> 01:47:00,000
Speaker 2: go crazy when I see blank, fresh new notebooks and

1563
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 2: pads of paper and pens. I just want to buy

1564
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:06,040
Speaker 2: them all, you know.

1565
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:10,800
Speaker 1: So let's go sideways for a minute here. You are

1566
01:47:10,840 --> 01:47:15,519
Speaker 1: a woman in a male dominated business. What's that been like?

1567
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:22,519
Speaker 2: It sucks? Basically, I mean you know, sometimes I have

1568
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:26,519
Speaker 2: to remind myself how many that there aren't women? You know,

1569
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:29,880
Speaker 2: we don't. The majority of engineers are men, majority of

1570
01:47:29,920 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 2: producers are men. Men run all the record labels. I mean,

1571
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:36,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I have a label run by a woman.

1572
01:47:38,040 --> 01:47:42,040
Speaker 2: So you know, there's that majority of musicians are men.

1573
01:47:43,920 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 2: You know, I love seeing a woman playing drums. I

1574
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:52,200
Speaker 2: love seeing a woman playing an instrument generally reserved for men.

1575
01:47:53,200 --> 01:47:57,240
Speaker 2: There's something really sexy and cool about that, you know,

1576
01:47:58,080 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 2: a woman playing bass or drums.

1577
01:48:02,000 --> 01:48:05,360
Speaker 1: And how any me too moments?

1578
01:48:06,280 --> 01:48:06,960
Speaker 2: Huh?

1579
01:48:07,000 --> 01:48:08,920
Speaker 1: Any sexual harassments.

1580
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:13,600
Speaker 2: I haven't had anything like that, thank god, Just you know,

1581
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:20,000
Speaker 2: comments like when I was first starting out, guys would

1582
01:48:20,040 --> 01:48:24,240
Speaker 2: say stuff like, you're pretty good for a girl, you know,

1583
01:48:25,120 --> 01:48:27,800
Speaker 2: or worse yet, they would say, you're pretty good for chick.

1584
01:48:28,920 --> 01:48:31,680
Speaker 2: I hated that word back then because that was effeminist.

1585
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:34,120
Speaker 2: I like to think of myself as a feminist, so

1586
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:37,840
Speaker 2: you know, that was not cool back in the day

1587
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:39,760
Speaker 2: to call women chicks.

1588
01:48:39,479 --> 01:48:42,719
Speaker 1: Although I will say I have two sisters. Starting somewhere

1589
01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:45,600
Speaker 1: in the eighties or nineties, they started to use the

1590
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 1: word chick. Yeah, it's almost like black people using the

1591
01:48:50,280 --> 01:48:50,719
Speaker 1: N word.

1592
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:51,639
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1593
01:48:52,080 --> 01:48:54,599
Speaker 1: And you know, it's a funny thing because I come

1594
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,320
Speaker 1: from a female dominated family. You can get caught up

1595
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:00,479
Speaker 1: in a conversation and saying jokingly, and there are certain

1596
01:49:00,479 --> 01:49:02,120
Speaker 1: people saying, say, oh, you can't say that.

1597
01:49:02,920 --> 01:49:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. Yeah, we can call each other chick

1598
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:10,760
Speaker 2: and bitch and whatever else we want to call each other.

1599
01:49:10,960 --> 01:49:13,000
Speaker 2: You know, I know what you mean.

1600
01:49:13,479 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how about in business, Like you go for

1601
01:49:18,400 --> 01:49:21,720
Speaker 1: a meeting and they you feel if you were a

1602
01:49:21,880 --> 01:49:24,960
Speaker 1: guy in a meeting or in a studio, it would

1603
01:49:25,040 --> 01:49:25,919
Speaker 1: go down differently.

1604
01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:30,439
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I just my head just doesn't go

1605
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,040
Speaker 2: in that direction. I don't think in those terms of

1606
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 2: like you know, all men do this or all women

1607
01:49:37,360 --> 01:49:41,200
Speaker 2: are like this. So, you know, I just think I

1608
01:49:41,200 --> 01:49:44,800
Speaker 2: would think more in terms of the actual person, Like

1609
01:49:44,880 --> 01:49:48,439
Speaker 2: if so and so was in here right now, like

1610
01:49:48,800 --> 01:49:52,240
Speaker 2: Steve Earle, who is just like you know, when he

1611
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:54,840
Speaker 2: says something, that's it. You know, he's just got one

1612
01:49:54,880 --> 01:49:58,000
Speaker 2: of those personalities, you know, And I'm just not like that.

1613
01:49:58,160 --> 01:50:01,240
Speaker 2: I'm more kind of you know, shy, or I kind

1614
01:50:01,280 --> 01:50:04,360
Speaker 2: of retreat back, you know, like it's harder for me

1615
01:50:04,439 --> 01:50:10,120
Speaker 2: to be aggressive or assertive as opposed to like so

1616
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:13,240
Speaker 2: if I was in the studio. I might say I

1617
01:50:13,840 --> 01:50:16,080
Speaker 2: wish Steve was in here with me right now because

1618
01:50:16,240 --> 01:50:19,160
Speaker 2: he could explain what I mean to them, and part

1619
01:50:19,160 --> 01:50:21,759
Speaker 2: of it would be just trying to describe and explain

1620
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:24,200
Speaker 2: what I wanted to the sound I wanted to get

1621
01:50:24,280 --> 01:50:26,920
Speaker 2: or something like that, you know, to the engineer and

1622
01:50:26,960 --> 01:50:30,680
Speaker 2: the producer like that would be hard sometimes.

1623
01:50:30,720 --> 01:50:34,240
Speaker 1: So tell us about the stroke.

1624
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:39,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a surprise and a shock if there

1625
01:50:39,840 --> 01:50:43,840
Speaker 2: ever was one. I was. It was a normal, regular day.

1626
01:50:43,880 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 2: I was in the bathroom getting ready to take a

1627
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:49,679
Speaker 2: shower at our house in Nashville, and I just felt

1628
01:50:49,720 --> 01:50:52,760
Speaker 2: really exhausted all of a sudden, like to the point

1629
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:54,400
Speaker 2: where all I want to do is lay down. I

1630
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:56,800
Speaker 2: didn't care where I was. I just wanted to and

1631
01:50:57,200 --> 01:51:01,240
Speaker 2: it was this overwhelming need to lay down, and I

1632
01:51:01,360 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 2: just felt kind of weak. My legs just felt real

1633
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:08,360
Speaker 2: weak underneath me, and I remember I didn't fall down.

1634
01:51:08,840 --> 01:51:13,000
Speaker 2: I saw some towels and I grabbed them and laid

1635
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:15,240
Speaker 2: down on the floor in the bathroom for a minute.

1636
01:51:15,240 --> 01:51:16,840
Speaker 2: I just thought, I'm just gonna lay down for a

1637
01:51:16,880 --> 01:51:18,599
Speaker 2: minute before I get in the shower, because I don't

1638
01:51:18,600 --> 01:51:21,800
Speaker 2: want to fall down to the shower, so I just

1639
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 2: laid down on the floor and then Tom, my husband, Tom,

1640
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:30,400
Speaker 2: at some point saw me in there and he figured

1641
01:51:30,520 --> 01:51:32,640
Speaker 2: something was He didn't know if I'd fallen or what

1642
01:51:32,720 --> 01:51:37,800
Speaker 2: had happened, but he knew something was off. So he

1643
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:40,680
Speaker 2: ended up on the phone with our doctor, our primary

1644
01:51:40,720 --> 01:51:45,760
Speaker 2: care physician in Nashville, described what was going under her.

1645
01:51:46,000 --> 01:51:49,679
Speaker 2: She told her to call an ambulance and they came,

1646
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:52,840
Speaker 2: and you know, we didn't know it was a stroke

1647
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:55,479
Speaker 2: right away until I got to the hospital, and then

1648
01:51:55,520 --> 01:52:00,160
Speaker 2: they said that that was what had happened. I was

1649
01:52:00,160 --> 01:52:05,200
Speaker 2: in the hospital for a couple of weeks, and then

1650
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:08,880
Speaker 2: they at a certain point I started doing rehab in

1651
01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:12,639
Speaker 2: the hospital because they had a rehab division section there

1652
01:52:13,240 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 2: with physical therapists, so they got me into that very quickly,

1653
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:21,479
Speaker 2: which I think really helped made a big difference. So

1654
01:52:21,520 --> 01:52:24,240
Speaker 2: I did some rehab in the hospital, and then I

1655
01:52:24,280 --> 01:52:28,960
Speaker 2: came home and then I had caregivers come to the

1656
01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:32,200
Speaker 2: house and helped me, and I had physical theorists come

1657
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:37,000
Speaker 2: to the house and worked with them. So I was

1658
01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:41,760
Speaker 2: doing a lot of outpatient physical therapy and starting to

1659
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:44,160
Speaker 2: get a little at least be able to walk across

1660
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:47,200
Speaker 2: the room without falling down because I couldn't walk it first,

1661
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:53,280
Speaker 2: and then I rollized I couldn't play guitar, which has

1662
01:52:53,320 --> 01:52:58,519
Speaker 2: been my main big obstacle. So that's what I'm working

1663
01:52:58,560 --> 01:53:00,320
Speaker 2: on now, is trying to get back to that.

1664
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:05,640
Speaker 1: So you had some level of paralysis. Where are you

1665
01:53:05,720 --> 01:53:07,320
Speaker 1: at now physically?

1666
01:53:11,240 --> 01:53:13,640
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if it was paralysis, you mean

1667
01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:14,839
Speaker 2: not being able to walk.

1668
01:53:15,520 --> 01:53:17,320
Speaker 1: Well, whatever it is, you know better than I do.

1669
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 2: Uh.

1670
01:53:19,320 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 1: You know what ended up? You have the stroke. Let's

1671
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: start from the beginning, purely out of the blue or

1672
01:53:25,960 --> 01:53:28,160
Speaker 1: was this something genetic and they say it was going

1673
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:28,759
Speaker 1: to happen?

1674
01:53:29,680 --> 01:53:32,559
Speaker 2: No, it was out of the blue, you know.

1675
01:53:33,680 --> 01:53:35,880
Speaker 1: Okay, So what were the effects of the stroke?

1676
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:39,720
Speaker 2: Okay? The stroke? Basically, you know, I didn't even know

1677
01:53:39,760 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 2: what a stroke was. But it's when you have a

1678
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 2: blood thought on one side of your brain, and you know,

1679
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:56,599
Speaker 2: basically your brain is confused. So that means your body

1680
01:53:56,680 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 2: is confused because your brain tells your body what to do.

1681
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:05,559
Speaker 2: So you have to retrain your brain. Basically, you know,

1682
01:54:05,720 --> 01:54:08,920
Speaker 2: your brain tells your legs what to do when you walk.

1683
01:54:10,240 --> 01:54:13,120
Speaker 2: You know, you don't think about that consciously because you're

1684
01:54:13,240 --> 01:54:16,120
Speaker 2: so used to walking, you just you don't think about it.

1685
01:54:16,160 --> 01:54:19,280
Speaker 2: But you know, when you after you have a stroke,

1686
01:54:19,439 --> 01:54:20,960
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you have to think about what

1687
01:54:21,000 --> 01:54:24,680
Speaker 2: you're doing all the time. And it also what's interesting

1688
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 2: is like my blood clot was on the right side

1689
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 2: of my brain, so the whole, entire less side of

1690
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:36,200
Speaker 2: my body was affected. And you know, you just have

1691
01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:41,360
Speaker 2: to relearn everything. I had to learn how to walk again,

1692
01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:45,360
Speaker 2: which I'm still working on. I still don't walk like

1693
01:54:45,400 --> 01:54:47,760
Speaker 2: I used to, you know.

1694
01:54:49,360 --> 01:54:58,040
Speaker 1: So if we take a snapshot today, what's your state today.

1695
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:01,320
Speaker 2: I think I'm doing really well. People who've known me

1696
01:55:01,440 --> 01:55:07,080
Speaker 2: since the beginning can see the progress. I mean, I'm

1697
01:55:07,120 --> 01:55:12,080
Speaker 2: lifting weights in the studio with the trainers, so you know,

1698
01:55:12,760 --> 01:55:15,560
Speaker 2: because I just refuse to. I don't want to get

1699
01:55:15,760 --> 01:55:19,640
Speaker 2: out of shape and weak and all that. I was

1700
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:23,960
Speaker 2: in a wheelchair for part of that time, and we

1701
01:55:24,080 --> 01:55:25,760
Speaker 2: still do that. Like if we have to go to

1702
01:55:25,760 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 2: the airport to catch a flight, they'll have a wheelchair

1703
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:32,440
Speaker 2: there to roll me through the airport because it's it's

1704
01:55:32,480 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 2: too hard for me to walk through and it takes

1705
01:55:34,920 --> 01:55:35,480
Speaker 2: too long.

1706
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:39,680
Speaker 1: And what's the status of playing guitar.

1707
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:48,040
Speaker 2: Right now? I'm not playing, so I've been performing without guitar,

1708
01:55:48,400 --> 01:55:52,200
Speaker 2: was just my band backing me up. But the hardest

1709
01:55:52,240 --> 01:55:54,360
Speaker 2: part is when I go in the studio to record,

1710
01:55:54,520 --> 01:55:59,400
Speaker 2: because that's how I started. At a certain point, I

1711
01:56:00,080 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 2: realize the best way for me to record with the

1712
01:56:02,280 --> 01:56:06,160
Speaker 2: band was for them to follow me, you know, for

1713
01:56:06,200 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 2: me to play the guitar, and they get the vibe

1714
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:15,320
Speaker 2: and the tempo and everything for me. And since I

1715
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 2: can't play, I have to rely on someone else to

1716
01:56:18,920 --> 01:56:23,400
Speaker 2: play rhythm, and that makes it a lot more difficult

1717
01:56:23,440 --> 01:56:27,880
Speaker 2: to record songs because nobody's gonna play like I do,

1718
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:35,320
Speaker 2: you know. So that's the best way for me to

1719
01:56:35,360 --> 01:56:38,959
Speaker 2: record is for me to play. In the very beginning,

1720
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:41,360
Speaker 2: somebody else would grab the guitar and sit and play.

1721
01:56:41,400 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 2: I never would even play. And then at some point

1722
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:48,960
Speaker 2: someone in the studio, it might have been Steve Girls

1723
01:56:49,040 --> 01:56:52,920
Speaker 2: suggested and said, Lou, you need to play guitar and

1724
01:56:53,000 --> 01:56:56,120
Speaker 2: sing the song and then let everybody else follow you.

1725
01:56:57,240 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 2: And that proved to be the best way for me

1726
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:00,800
Speaker 2: to record my stuff.

1727
01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:05,880
Speaker 1: And do you anticipate being able to play the guitar again?

1728
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:10,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I have to say yes, because I

1729
01:57:10,640 --> 01:57:12,000
Speaker 2: just refuse to give up.

1730
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 1: Okay, we're the same age, and hitting sixty was rough.

1731
01:57:18,760 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 1: Hitting seventy was rough in a different way. You've accomplished

1732
01:57:23,160 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 1: all this. You have all these albums, you have all

1733
01:57:25,880 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 1: this acclaim. Even if you did nothing again, you have

1734
01:57:30,320 --> 01:57:34,280
Speaker 1: a good legacy. But what do you want to accomplish

1735
01:57:34,400 --> 01:57:37,760
Speaker 1: other than the physical things which we've just changed. What

1736
01:57:37,840 --> 01:57:40,320
Speaker 1: do you want and what do you need for the

1737
01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:45,600
Speaker 1: time that's left.

1738
01:57:48,480 --> 01:57:51,200
Speaker 2: I would just say just keep writing songs and keep

1739
01:57:51,240 --> 01:57:54,320
Speaker 2: getting better. I feel like I can still there's always

1740
01:57:54,440 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 2: room to improve, you.

1741
01:57:57,120 --> 01:58:03,520
Speaker 1: Know, Okay, when I turn sixty. It's like you know

1742
01:58:03,640 --> 01:58:06,840
Speaker 1: the trick. You see advertising and you go if I

1743
01:58:06,920 --> 01:58:08,720
Speaker 1: you know, if this is good, I'll hear about it.

1744
01:58:09,080 --> 01:58:12,280
Speaker 1: Whereas you're a kid, you see something advertised with cartoons,

1745
01:58:12,320 --> 01:58:16,440
Speaker 1: you go, I want that. Then seventy he realized, well

1746
01:58:16,440 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be here forever, and your perspective changes.

1747
01:58:22,000 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 1: In addition, we live in this era. You know, you

1748
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:27,360
Speaker 1: and me grew up in the area. It turned on

1749
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:32,560
Speaker 1: the radio, everybody knew those songs. Now there's almost no

1750
01:58:32,760 --> 01:58:38,120
Speaker 1: regular frame of reference. So do you just put your

1751
01:58:38,160 --> 01:58:41,400
Speaker 1: head down and say this is what I'm doing, or

1752
01:58:41,760 --> 01:58:44,480
Speaker 1: does it affect you how things have changed both because

1753
01:58:44,520 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: of age and the landscape.

1754
01:58:46,840 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it affects me just like it affects you and

1755
01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 2: everybody else, especially people our age, you know, and it

1756
01:58:55,600 --> 01:58:59,040
Speaker 2: buns me out a lot of times. You're talking about

1757
01:58:59,080 --> 01:59:01,800
Speaker 2: like what you you mean, what you were talking about

1758
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,920
Speaker 2: before about there aren't any rebels left and that sort

1759
01:59:04,960 --> 01:59:10,720
Speaker 2: of thing. Oh yeah, Yeah, it definitely affects me. But

1760
01:59:11,440 --> 01:59:16,120
Speaker 2: I see some though still, you know, there are you know,

1761
01:59:16,200 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 2: I keep on top of what's going on, and I listen.

1762
01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:23,520
Speaker 2: I love to listen to new artists. You know. I'll

1763
01:59:23,560 --> 01:59:26,160
Speaker 2: hear about somebody. Somebody will say, you need to hear

1764
01:59:26,280 --> 01:59:29,320
Speaker 2: this guy's really good. And I go out of my

1765
01:59:29,360 --> 01:59:32,320
Speaker 2: way to listen to people, you know, who are just

1766
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:37,640
Speaker 2: getting started. And you know, I get excited when I

1767
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:40,600
Speaker 2: hear somebody I think it's really good, and you know,

1768
01:59:40,920 --> 01:59:44,320
Speaker 2: I'll go out and support them and talk with them

1769
01:59:44,360 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 2: and everything, and listen to their music at home, and

1770
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:52,320
Speaker 2: you know, give them advice maybe sometimes if they ask

1771
01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:57,600
Speaker 2: for it, you know, just give them support, you know,

1772
01:59:57,680 --> 02:00:00,560
Speaker 2: because I remember what it's like when I first started,

1773
02:00:01,760 --> 02:00:06,040
Speaker 2: you know. So there was a girl who in Nashville,

1774
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:12,080
Speaker 2: who's her name is Alicia Blue, which is a great

1775
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:16,000
Speaker 2: stage name, but it's actually her real name. And she's

1776
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:21,160
Speaker 2: quite good. She's a really good lyricist, really good songs

1777
02:00:21,600 --> 02:00:24,640
Speaker 2: she did, She recorded and did a video of her

1778
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:33,200
Speaker 2: singing this song. Jane says that Jane's Addiction did and

1779
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:38,120
Speaker 2: it's really it's really good. She just played it for

1780
02:00:38,160 --> 02:00:43,840
Speaker 2: me recently. And so you know, there are I mean,

1781
02:00:43,880 --> 02:00:47,720
Speaker 2: there are younger artists. I think, who are I haven't

1782
02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:52,360
Speaker 2: enough of that rebellion in them, you know, but the

1783
02:00:52,440 --> 02:00:55,880
Speaker 2: business has changed somewhat too, so you have to look

1784
02:00:55,920 --> 02:01:01,880
Speaker 2: at that, and I get more frustrated, I guess when

1785
02:01:01,880 --> 02:01:05,080
Speaker 2: I probably more about the business into things than the

1786
02:01:05,200 --> 02:01:08,960
Speaker 2: artists actually, or the lack thereof, because a lot of

1787
02:01:09,000 --> 02:01:11,360
Speaker 2: times I'll see and hear an artists I think is

1788
02:01:11,480 --> 02:01:15,840
Speaker 2: really really good and wonder why he or she doesn't

1789
02:01:15,880 --> 02:01:19,080
Speaker 2: get the attention they deserve, or you know, why he

1790
02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:22,520
Speaker 2: or she hasn't gotten record deal yet, and you know,

1791
02:01:24,240 --> 02:01:26,800
Speaker 2: people aren't paying attention to them like they should be,

1792
02:01:26,960 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 2: And that probably frustrates me as much as anything.

1793
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:35,360
Speaker 1: Well, the other thing that frustrates me is people our age.

1794
02:01:35,440 --> 02:01:38,800
Speaker 1: We are half dead. I mean, you're very alive. You're

1795
02:01:38,840 --> 02:01:42,000
Speaker 1: staying up on things you have opinions. Then there are

1796
02:01:42,000 --> 02:01:45,080
Speaker 1: other people. I know, well I'm old, I'm retired, I'm

1797
02:01:45,120 --> 02:01:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, just into lifestyle. They're very weird.

1798
02:01:48,520 --> 02:01:52,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just start thinking old. They're old because they

1799
02:01:52,840 --> 02:01:53,640
Speaker 2: think they're old.

1800
02:01:55,320 --> 02:02:00,000
Speaker 1: You know, well you're certainly young, Lucinda. I want to think,

1801
02:02:00,000 --> 02:02:02,480
Speaker 1: thank you for taking the time with my audience.

1802
02:02:03,920 --> 02:02:08,240
Speaker 2: Well, you're more than welcome. I've enjoyed this conversation.

1803
02:02:09,240 --> 02:02:12,480
Speaker 1: Great. Hopefully I asked some questions. We went some places

1804
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:14,680
Speaker 1: that were not we normally go.

1805
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, we did.

1806
02:02:18,200 --> 02:02:21,080
Speaker 1: That's okay, No, that's what I want people who have

1807
02:02:21,120 --> 02:02:24,520
Speaker 1: been interviewed, you know, you try and ask to ask

1808
02:02:24,560 --> 02:02:27,360
Speaker 1: the same questions because then their eyes roll in the back.

1809
02:02:27,200 --> 02:02:30,920
Speaker 2: Of the Yeah. Yeah, but I mean I like that

1810
02:02:31,000 --> 02:02:35,920
Speaker 2: you asked different questions. I wasn't expecting a lot of them.

1811
02:02:36,280 --> 02:02:41,160
Speaker 2: But that's okay, Okay, you're a rebel.

1812
02:02:41,960 --> 02:02:47,480
Speaker 1: Oh you have no idea. I am that person. You

1813
02:02:47,520 --> 02:02:49,960
Speaker 1: know what I used to say in the old days

1814
02:02:50,680 --> 02:02:54,800
Speaker 1: was I believed in this wave theory. So in the

1815
02:02:54,840 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 1: fifties the waves came in, everybody was a beat. Nick

1816
02:02:59,480 --> 02:03:03,080
Speaker 1: the wave went out and we had Manor G. Krebs

1817
02:03:03,120 --> 02:03:07,080
Speaker 1: On Sure he was left on shore then the sixties

1818
02:03:07,320 --> 02:03:12,520
Speaker 1: we had uh what's his name, uh Ginsburg, the poet

1819
02:03:12,640 --> 02:03:13,840
Speaker 1: he was left on shore.

1820
02:03:14,800 --> 02:03:15,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1821
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:19,839
Speaker 1: I never wore a leisure suit. I never did anything.

1822
02:03:20,320 --> 02:03:22,040
Speaker 1: I stayed true to who I was.

1823
02:03:22,560 --> 02:03:22,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1824
02:03:23,040 --> 02:03:27,440
Speaker 1: But even worse now today people don't even remember the

1825
02:03:27,480 --> 02:03:31,400
Speaker 1: way it was. You know, I feel like Grandpa saying, well,

1826
02:03:31,440 --> 02:03:35,360
Speaker 1: back in the sixties, back in the seventies, Yeah, when

1827
02:03:35,400 --> 02:03:38,920
Speaker 1: people had values and they would say no, you know,

1828
02:03:38,960 --> 02:03:42,280
Speaker 1: you talk about being an artist whatever. Everybody say, Oh,

1829
02:03:42,320 --> 02:03:46,240
Speaker 1: I can make money, I can get fame. Yes, drives

1830
02:03:46,280 --> 02:03:46,959
Speaker 1: me crazy.

1831
02:03:47,800 --> 02:03:52,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is there you think there's still that that that

1832
02:03:52,480 --> 02:03:53,320
Speaker 2: still happens.

1833
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, okay, you're a middle class person. Your father

1834
02:03:58,200 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 1: was a college professor. We are the same age. We

1835
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:03,760
Speaker 1: didn't grow up in the same part of the country.

1836
02:04:04,440 --> 02:04:07,640
Speaker 1: But when I went to high school, regular public high school,

1837
02:04:08,360 --> 02:04:11,120
Speaker 1: there were kids who were middle class and they were

1838
02:04:11,120 --> 02:04:14,120
Speaker 1: the art kids. They were separate from the cool, separate

1839
02:04:14,160 --> 02:04:19,000
Speaker 1: from the jock, etc. Etc. And those people became the artists.

1840
02:04:19,640 --> 02:04:23,720
Speaker 1: An equal story is Jefferson Airplane. You know, if you're

1841
02:04:23,760 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 1: a middle class person, you say no. Bill Graham was

1842
02:04:27,400 --> 02:04:30,200
Speaker 1: the manager for while. He said, whenever they had any success,

1843
02:04:30,440 --> 02:04:32,040
Speaker 1: they didn't want to work. They want to stay home

1844
02:04:32,080 --> 02:04:35,080
Speaker 1: and smoke dope. It's like, you know, they had a

1845
02:04:35,120 --> 02:04:40,640
Speaker 1: feel for it. They wouldn't do anything for money, whereas today, Yeah,

1846
02:04:40,920 --> 02:04:44,360
Speaker 1: if you people won't do anything for money, they'll play

1847
02:04:44,400 --> 02:04:46,240
Speaker 1: with dictators, they'll work.

1848
02:04:46,880 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 2: You know.

1849
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:50,720
Speaker 1: It's like you're saying, you're not cutting the verse from

1850
02:04:50,800 --> 02:04:53,680
Speaker 1: the song. Well, we grew up in the era where

1851
02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:57,480
Speaker 1: the people who are performing wrote the songs and although

1852
02:04:57,520 --> 02:04:59,880
Speaker 1: there are some there are some great intro.

1853
02:05:00,320 --> 02:05:03,400
Speaker 2: That was a sorry to interrupt, but that is probably

1854
02:05:03,440 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 2: the biggest change I think over the you know, over

1855
02:05:08,520 --> 02:05:14,600
Speaker 2: the years has been going from artist recording who didn't write,

1856
02:05:14,880 --> 02:05:18,720
Speaker 2: to artists recording who wrote their own songs.

1857
02:05:19,040 --> 02:05:20,440
Speaker 1: I think this is huge, you I think I was

1858
02:05:20,480 --> 02:05:23,440
Speaker 1: talking to somebody the other day and I say, look

1859
02:05:23,440 --> 02:05:27,160
Speaker 1: at the frame of reference. When Mariah Carey came in

1860
02:05:27,200 --> 02:05:31,120
Speaker 1: the nineties, that was pop. We hadn't had pop like

1861
02:05:31,240 --> 02:05:37,520
Speaker 1: that since the sixties. But today everybody was brought up

1862
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:40,320
Speaker 1: on that and they think, you know, like what you

1863
02:05:40,360 --> 02:05:43,880
Speaker 1: see on TV shows with competition shows, where for us,

1864
02:05:44,880 --> 02:05:48,080
Speaker 1: no way. The other thing is there are people our

1865
02:05:48,120 --> 02:05:52,800
Speaker 1: age who get plastic surgery and they go on stage

1866
02:05:52,800 --> 02:05:55,960
Speaker 1: and play the old hits to people who look old,

1867
02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:59,800
Speaker 1: but they you know, it's like, you know, if somebody

1868
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:04,080
Speaker 1: wants to go, fine, but it creeps me out. It's like, yeah,

1869
02:06:05,040 --> 02:06:07,600
Speaker 1: especially as I've seen these acts so many times, Like,

1870
02:06:07,640 --> 02:06:09,960
Speaker 1: you know, unless you're my friend, whatever, I'm not gonna go.

1871
02:06:10,040 --> 02:06:11,200
Speaker 1: I remember when.

1872
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:15,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's just boring.

1873
02:06:16,520 --> 02:06:21,160
Speaker 1: I mean, but a lot of people are disheartened. I mean,

1874
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:24,520
Speaker 1: your success came a little later in age, but you're

1875
02:06:24,560 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 1: continuing to work. There's certain you know, that comes down

1876
02:06:28,280 --> 02:06:31,640
Speaker 1: to whether you're an artist, and a lot of people can't.

1877
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 2: They can't. That's I'm an artist first and foremost. You know,

1878
02:06:36,480 --> 02:06:40,680
Speaker 2: I live, eat, and breathe and sleep with my art.

1879
02:06:40,840 --> 02:06:44,600
Speaker 2: You know, that's the thing. At the risk of sounding idealistic,

1880
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:47,320
Speaker 2: you know, but it's true though.

1881
02:06:48,120 --> 02:06:53,360
Speaker 1: Well you know, an artist can say no and won't compromise.

1882
02:06:54,600 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you might say, well, I'll cut my set

1883
02:06:56,920 --> 02:07:01,760
Speaker 1: short ten minutes, but I'm not you know, strings on

1884
02:07:01,840 --> 02:07:02,480
Speaker 1: this track.

1885
02:07:03,040 --> 02:07:11,280
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, because everything is made from an artistic perspective,

1886
02:07:11,720 --> 02:07:16,640
Speaker 2: you know, So is it gonna help the song or

1887
02:07:16,760 --> 02:07:20,800
Speaker 2: is it not? It's that simple, you know.

1888
02:07:21,200 --> 02:07:25,560
Speaker 1: Another element and I've had personal experience with this, the

1889
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:30,840
Speaker 1: audience knows. Everybody was. I was on a percentage phrase.

1890
02:07:30,960 --> 02:07:33,720
Speaker 1: Oh do the commercial do the ads? No one cares

1891
02:07:33,760 --> 02:07:36,880
Speaker 1: about that. Oh there's not that's not true.

1892
02:07:37,760 --> 02:07:43,880
Speaker 2: They do. Yeah, they pay attention to everything. And that's

1893
02:07:43,920 --> 02:07:47,400
Speaker 2: the other thing is a lot of artists and performers

1894
02:07:47,520 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 2: underestimate their audience. I think, you know, well, give me

1895
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:59,320
Speaker 2: a little deeper. Well, I mean, I just think, what

1896
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:01,320
Speaker 2: kind of I what you were saying. You might not

1897
02:08:01,440 --> 02:08:03,400
Speaker 2: think they care if you take this verse out of

1898
02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:07,360
Speaker 2: a song or something, but they pay attention to the versus.

1899
02:08:07,800 --> 02:08:10,720
Speaker 2: You know, I have the best fans ever, I think

1900
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:15,880
Speaker 2: in the whole world, because they're loyal. I mean, they're patient.

1901
02:08:16,840 --> 02:08:19,840
Speaker 2: You know, they stick with me if I make a

1902
02:08:19,880 --> 02:08:23,440
Speaker 2: mistake when I'm performing, They're still there at the end

1903
02:08:23,520 --> 02:08:26,360
Speaker 2: of the night. You know, they don't leave. You know,

1904
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:30,240
Speaker 2: they listen to what I'm saying. They pay attention to

1905
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:33,919
Speaker 2: the lyrics and the songs, and they remember my songs

1906
02:08:33,960 --> 02:08:36,320
Speaker 2: and they love them and they love me. I feel

1907
02:08:36,360 --> 02:08:42,200
Speaker 2: like there's a real family thing there between my fans

1908
02:08:42,240 --> 02:08:42,480
Speaker 2: and me.

1909
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:46,600
Speaker 1: Well that's what it's all about today. Because the machine

1910
02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:51,400
Speaker 1: doesn't exist like terrestrial radio, I don't know anybody listens

1911
02:08:51,440 --> 02:08:56,400
Speaker 1: to terrestrial radio. You know, it's like it's all everybody

1912
02:08:56,880 --> 02:08:59,880
Speaker 1: that's talking to my shrink about this earlier today everybody

1913
02:09:00,120 --> 02:09:04,400
Speaker 1: their own thing. Now it's like you make your own breaks.

1914
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:08,600
Speaker 1: Nobody is world dominant. Like for all this hype about

1915
02:09:08,640 --> 02:09:13,720
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift, I mean, we remember when everybody knew every

1916
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:15,480
Speaker 1: word to every song because it was on the radio

1917
02:09:15,480 --> 02:09:18,640
Speaker 1: and we all listen to the radio. Whereas today you

1918
02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:21,440
Speaker 1: go around, most people can even name a Taylor Swift song.

1919
02:09:21,560 --> 02:09:24,440
Speaker 1: It's not not making it about her because she's really big,

1920
02:09:24,800 --> 02:09:28,360
Speaker 1: bad bunny. There's a couple of these people. They are

1921
02:09:29,000 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 1: The Stones went on tour in seventy two. It was like,

1922
02:09:32,960 --> 02:09:36,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's like the second Coming. Everybody can rage,

1923
02:09:36,440 --> 02:09:44,000
Speaker 1: can sing satisfaction, jumping Jackflash, we know that shit. Yeah, Okay, Lousen,

1924
02:09:44,120 --> 02:09:48,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go till next time. This is Bob Left

1925
02:09:48,440 --> 02:10:11,280
Speaker 1: Sets